Comments on: Voleur part 2: Interview with Voleur/Evangeline

By: Peter Ludlow

Peter Ludlow — Wed, 26 Nov 2003 07:37:03 +0000

Wait ’til you see my interview with Snow White (I’ll post it later today). Ban is used a couple times a week already. SSG already does (or does claim to) have control over the main skill and money houses, so that a troublesome user can be banned to the periphery with one word from snow.

By: Candace

Candace — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 21:01:11 +0000

Wow; yeah….that’s a simple one that I didn’t get. I see how that could work through group effort; it’s the collective power of “ban.” Gotcha, and thank you for turning the light bulb on in my tiny little cranium.

By: Peter Ludlow

Peter Ludlow — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 17:25:18 +0000

ok, here’s the idea, which really only came to me when Clay Shirkey was talking at The State of Play. Because common areas don’t exist on TSO, it is possible for users to band together and ban troublesome users from every meaninful location in TSO. That is, a small group of people located in key properties could ensure that a user is banned from all the main skill properties, all the main money properties, all the main entertainment properties etc. Now of course this doesn’t ban the person from the game but it banishes them to the margins of sim society. Living there you can still intercept newbies, but only if you can find a way to keep your property highly ranked in the Welcome category (ala Evangeline). So a group like SSG is potentially very powerful, even without applying a single tag.

By: Candace

Candace — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 16:32:42 +0000

I certainly agree that Maxis shows a lack of capacity to even communicate, let alone create such a structure. The larger issue is interesting though. I agree that I wouldn’t like such a system (my worry is majority dominance). Yet, what can groups like SSG do? Tag People…is that a big deal? I’ve never understood that. I’m sure some people would simply pride themselves on the number of enemies they’ve made. Talking about booting someone out of the entire community seems a much more serious idea (though not, as I’ve stated, necessarily the best route). I’ve heard the name SSG thrown about but I don’t see their power. Maybe someone can tell me what the do? (Or perhaps this would violate their “shadowy” element……all the same, I don’t see how it works).

By: Peter Ludlow

Peter Ludlow — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:42:35 +0000

Candace, the only thing that made LambdaMOO progressive was the fact that a system of petitions and grievances was instituted by wizzardly fiat (by Haakkon). It is also worth noting that the experiment in democracy did not last and Lambda returned to a system of wizzardly fiat (see the discussion and documents in my Crypto Anarcy, Cyberstates, and Pirate Utopias). To effect the same thing here we would need Maxis to institute some structural changes. That isn’t likely to happen and I’m not sure that’s the best route in any case. I think indigenous movements like Sims Shadow Government have a much better chance of being effective even if they are not democratic. (SSG is more like an aristocracy, which, in the short run, may be a necessary first step towards something more democratic.)

By: Candace

Candace — Tue, 25 Nov 2003 15:26:02 +0000

Oh yeah, anyone interested in this issue should check out Dibbell’s article: it’s a classic. Mr. Bungle used a little known feature (what was it, some so-called “voodoo” thing?)to control other characters in vulgar and graphic sexual ways. (Incidentally, I remember that the student behind this resurfaced too as another character but was only mildly annoying).
What strikes me, though, between the two is that the LambdaMOO though much older than something like TSO was in a way far more progressive. They decided to hold a community meeting to decide what to do w/ the notorious Mr. Bungle. Later I think they instituted some voting measures. It was handled in a majority democractic fashion. Is that a good thing? Should communities such as TSO have guidelines that the community could vote that an individual such as “Evangeline” be terminated? That leads to some crazy thought. Such a proposal doesn’t appeal to me as an individual. I don’t want a majority reigning the minority (and of course, given that TSO is a game people pay to play, I wouldn’t think the parent company would be interested in losing members this way unless they could compensate for it by drawing together a large, faithful growing community). It’s a trippy thought though, and there is an interesting parallel between the cases nonetheless.

By: urizenus

urizenus — Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:06:49 +0000

I have to say that Evangeline reminds me A LOT of Mr. Bungle, in the old days on LambdaMOO. See Julian Dibbell’s classic essay on that event:

http://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/bungle.html

By: Stormy@CC

Stormy@CC — Mon, 24 Nov 2003 22:07:23 +0000

im from CC but I do visit diffrent cities from time to time. When visiting this sims home i was smacked for having a “fat face”…in this sims own words “i hate serious people”

By: Candace

Candace — Mon, 24 Nov 2003 17:46:20 +0000

What can a person say after reading this (and of course seeking medical attention for anything vital that ruptured as a result of profuse laughter)? I guess most people want a shot at their 15 minutes of fame, however they can get it. My first take on it is that whoever is behind “Evangeline” doesn’t take this seriously (rather unfortunate for people who do and might run into her, perhaps). Scamming people is his/her racket and if Maxis is indifferent (I’m not sure they have a pulse), then little can be done. You know, while being amusing, it’s very hard to make any assessment based on this (because of my assumption that Evangeline is not taking this seriously)— yet, that fact (that no real assessment can be made) is in itself important. I think this takes us to something bigger than you, me or “Evangeline”…

Part of the deal w/ any game (in some situations, an immense difficulty) is that we don’t know who is behind the character and what r/l goals they have. Not knowing those facts, how do we balance (or even get a proper view of) the relationship between a r/l person and his/her character? “Evangeline” could be someone outrageously seeking attention, as it comes off above, but whomever it really is has a real motivation. (In that sense, it’s not really correct to assume Evangeline doesn’t take this seriously; in fact, given the amount of time he or she devoted to creating this character, I assume the r/l person behind “Evangeline” has some motivation, deep or frivolous as it may be, that is important to the individual). Is Evangeline created for the purpose of furthering any or none of the following r/l reasons: 1.) the attention itself is really important to this person and that’s it, 2.) acting what would be deemed in r/l “immoral” fulfills some need or is in line w/ his/her real views, 3.) to identify as many “suckers” as possible because that in itself is gratifying or maybe because he/she wants to research that in this environment, or most paradoxically, consider 4.) to actually irritate people in the game to such an extent that Maxis is forced to change it’s policy and make such actions less likely to occur. Who is to say? What a funky bit this interview is…nice job Uri.