~WhiteWolf~

When a slave kneels in front of me it does not bother me. It’s like someone bowing or shaking your hand in my opinion, a form of respect. Is respect a bad thing, I don’t think so.

Although I am not personally involved in RP (SL or RL) it has sparked a bit of interest in my somewhat dull existance.

I understand what all of you are saying (feelings, etc.) about this ‘social’ area in game but I also feel that we are not worthy of ‘judging’ anyone or anything.

People pay money to play SL and should feel free and be welcome to do whatever they choose as long as it harm none.

So on that note I will fade away into the game and welcome who/whatever comes my way as I am one of the gifted with an ‘open mind’!

Yeah look thats fine and thank you for clarifying all that because alot of what you were saying wasnt makin sense. But in that context yes I can understand your points, especially regaring child abuse. I do believe all adults should be allowed the FREEDOM to choose how they express their sexuality consensually with partners, regardless of what all that entails. And, on that point you and I will simply have to agree to disagree. But, since youve expressed its not your will to interfer with other people’s rights then it hardly matters what you think anyway.

As for the rest of your post . .I dont particularly feel compelled to defend myself. Consider my disinterest a form of arrogance because thats exactly what it is. You are certainly within your right to express your opinions on anything and I freely alknowledge it. I think its inappropriate ( and just bad manners ) to discuss those opinions in threads that arent pertaining to your posts. Its annoying. But, its not my forum. Im just letting you know I dont appreciate when you do that.

>>But I think youre being hypocritical by promoting freedom from enslavement for BDSM subs. Because, youre trying achieve that goal by forcing your beliefs and lifestyle on everyone in turn. You dont respect the freedom of anyone who chooses a lifestyle you disagree with.

Hahah, slavery is freedom, right? Take meaning away from words, and be the Red Queen. Well, I dunno, I just got done saying here in this thread, and in hundreds of others, that I don’t “force my lifestyle and beliefs” on everybody. I just got done saying that people should do what they want on their own properties, and in the public space, they deserve tolerance and free access to goods, ideas, services, etc. So where is the forcing? That’s silly. Don’t confuse *criticisimg* and *objecting to on philosophical grounds* as forcing. That’s my RIGHT to do, by the same lights of the liberal values you just tried to invoke on me, that I should be tolerant.

Avah, I thought from your posts up til now that you were bright. Don’t disappoint, and don’t go dumb on me now. You know full well you have no place where you can show that I “force beliefs” on people. Propagating my um silly and old fashioned notion of freedom from slavery, well, gosh, that’s not forcing that’s just propagating.

You’re also not understanding the context of my remarks about children because you’re just tuning in. They aren’t related to SL. SL is a game for adults and they are pretty strict about it. So it’s fairly pointless to invoke the issue of child molestation in SL, although I suppose nothing is perfect. But it really is a different game space completely that TSO. In TSO, you didn’t HAVE to be an adult to play it — children as young as nine were on there. It was routine for teens to be on there — they were allowed. SO it was in the context of TSO that I talked (in those old threads)about these problems of exposure of children — and of course they’d try to skirt that by putting up signs “18 and over” on their lots which all silly if you think of it and easy to get around.

Oh well, I try my poor best to stem the tide of the bad arguments and cultic group-think but it’s a loney struggle : )
But I’m not as worried as I used to be because plenty more people can take a look at this now than before, and I believe strongly in the corrective of the democratic society, with all its problems now, in addressing this and pushing back.

A ritual that requires the use of a safe word isn’t safe, and uses force. Violence isn’t just about force. It’s about harm, and the whole point about sado-masochism as an expression is that it talks about enjoyment of the infliction of harm and pain. People tend to lose sight of that obvious fact in having these very rarified discussions.

Um, I’m afraid I did read up on all this stuff both on “RL People” and all the rest, corresponding and posting heavily, back when we all had this on the old SLH.

And you know what? Life is short, then you die. Those are hours of my life I can’t get back : ) I’m not interested in RE-losing them ROFL.

So enjoy your pain, be eternally frustrated that you did’t get the ripping to shreads that you deserve (you can read the back pages of the Herald and get it um vicariously) and rest assured that while my values are not universal, my values of tolerance are in fact recognized as universal, and your values of intolerance are not. You cannot tolerate the notion of someone who does not think as you do, and have no other recourse but to portray them as “oppressing” you. ROFL!

Im starting to wonder if you arent a Dom. I think you may be. I also think its obscene that you keep introducing the idea of child molestation into your arguement. Its illegal and thats not what BDSM is about. Also, children are not allowed on the adult grid in game. So youre completely full of shit. You said yourself that you didnt object to mild BDSM rp in public. Dont backpeddle now. Im not here to feed you ammo for your insane paranoid arguement. But since you are whining about it and finally admitting the root of your obsession with this particular topic . . Get over it. Good. Now thats solved. If you do not have anything to contribute to a discussion about the power of BDSM to translate into virtual spaces, which is what the above article pertains to, then why are you posting? Please stop trolling this thread.

‘Violence’, did you do as i suggested ? Go look up the definition of ‘violence’ in a dictionary ?

NO – i dont think you did did you ? Otherwise you would have seen that apart of the definition of ‘violence’ involves FORCE, and since a submissive is submissive by choice, i’m not sure how you come to feel the concept of ‘violence’(as defined in any good dictionary) is applicable. What ever the submissive endures, it is done through choice, and at any time the submissive can stop, i’m sure since you’re so well read on the subject of BDSM you will of course have accross the concept of a ‘safe word’ correct ?

I’ll reiterate, i happen to enjoy moderate amounts of pain, and i happen to enjoy being the sub/slave on my knees saying “yes Mistress” and obeying, just who do you think you are to tell me that what i feel is wrong ? God is the only definer of right and wrong, and it appears to me that you feel you are this entity !!!

As i said Prok, you need to take your head outside of SL world and read up properly, on real life people, not base your complete *opinion* solely on what is said at Terra Nova and in the SecondLife Herald. You also need to stop being such a complete biggot and accept that there are alot of people out there, all feeling and thinking different things, all having different desires,(as i said “different strokes for different folks”), fine if you don’t like what they like, but get over the fact that your way of thinking, and your desires are NOT the universal, so stop trying to enforce them as such !!!

TrannyPet Barmy
The REAL ONE

ps. where the rest of the “ripping Tranny’s arguement to pieces” ? All i see is some poor attempt at redefining ‘violence’ on your part.

So what. The same can be said for straight vanilla relationships. So what.

Prok you claim to be against BDSM because it takes freedom away from the submissive, subjecting one to violence. But I think youre being hypocritical by promoting freedom from enslavement for BDSM subs. Because, youre trying achieve that goal by forcing your beliefs and lifestyle on everyone in turn. You dont respect the freedom of anyone who chooses a lifestyle you disagree with. Im starting to wonder if you arent a Dom. I think you may be. I also think its obscene that you keep introducing the idea of child molestation into your arguement. Its illegal and thats not what BDSM is about. Also, children are not allowed on the adult grid in game. So youre completely full of shit. You said yourself that you didnt object to mild BDSM rp in public. Dont backpeddle now. Im not here to feed you ammo for your insane paranoid arguement. But since you are whining about it and finally admitting the root of your obsession with this particular topic . . Get over it. Good. Now thats solved. If you do not have anything to contribute to a discussion about the power of BDSM to translate into virtual spaces, which is what the above article pertains to, then why are you posting? Please stop trolling this thread.

Re: Define vigorous promotion please. Is public BDSM rp what has you bent? For instance, slaves kneeling in public for their masters or addressing their partners publically as “Master” ? That type of thing? Do you feel its being forced onto you in pg areas? I can understand why that would upset you and others. Or is there something else going on. Your posts are confusing because you rage against the lifestyle but youre not saying specifically what you are objecting to. How it is affecting you personally.

Indeed, going around to free discussions and free meetings of free people (like town halls, Thinkers, etc. etc.) and talking about oneself in the third person, saying Master, using the lingo of Y/you, blah blah blah, yes, that is forcing it on the public space. And this indeed includes PG areas, and that’s actually irrelevant, because nobody really abides by the PGness of PG unless they are playing “gotcha” with enemies and trying to sic Lindens on you. I always marvel to myself and the number of people showing up in town halls with their scripted equipment clanking and creaking and clinking before they touch down — magic collar this, etc. etc. — it’s sad. It has a cumulative effect. One can of course be required to “tolerate this” in the name of “freedom of lifestyle”. But then these self-same promoters of tolerance can take a spoonful of their own medicine and tolerate people’s distaste and repugnance too. At the last townhall, one woman got up and began to really object to the BDSM stuff and demand answers from the Lindens. She was set on like bats out of hell by the BDSMers, and when I volunteered a comment to the effect that this isn’t a recipe for a civilization, I got IM’d by one of the BDSMers who offered to have a private follow-up discussion with me — as she publicly said, oh, pfff, it’s nothing but what men and women used to have a few years ago anyway. Read the transcript! And of course they demand a private follow-up meeting where they hope they can do the virtual equivalent of a sensory-and-sense deprivation and wow you with their argumentation, which is all based on the usual cultic types of argumentation, “our thing is so special you can’t ever understand it, so either initiate yourself into its arcane mysteries, or shut up,” or “we have a beautiful thing here and people’s vanilla relationships in your vanilla world are all filled with wife-beating and non-consensual violence anyway so bah to you” and “My Master has the utmost respect for me and we have something that is incredibly rich and deep and he understands me and treats me better than anybody in the regular world’s type of relationships” etc etc. Well, no sale *shrugs*.

And, you know, I don’t “rage against the lifestyle”. I point out that it’s not a good thing to build a society and a civilization on. I don’t want these people to be in charge. I don’t want them to run my life. I don’t subscribe to their beliefs. I don’t want to be a dom or a sub or a “freed girl of the Tribe Angst” or whatever the fuck wierd roleplay shit they come up with. I’m sorry, but I’m not here to do that. I don’t like headfucking, virtual or real. I don’t want these people to take over, and I push back. It’s just that normal and simple. We’re required by the laws of our own liberal society to be respectful of people’s different choices and tolerate people to do WTF they want in their own home — and we do. But that doesn’t mean we’re supposed to crumple and die with this argumentation of theirs and not say, no, it’s wrong. It is wrong. And many people realize that, and react to it that way, and that has to be respected to.

I could note that the more zealous sectarians of the BDSM cult tried to get a case put over in the European Court of Human Rights that basically pled for the right to have consensual bondage and sado-masochism acknowledged. And it failed. Because RL courts of law are not going to sanction such things, not out of prudish morality, but because they aren’t going to sanction such things as coercion and violence even under the guise of “consent”.

In fact, one of the things BDSM does, like Kentuck Fried Chicken with its KFC, is reduce itself to an acronym that nobody actualy reads and thinks about any more, i.e. bondage and sado-masochism.

And I’m afraid you’re not saying anything new in this next round — you’re merely reiterating that you have special, insider, arcane knowledge, and I’m in the wrong, because I refuse to enter the rituals and partake of the communion to obtain this specialized, arcane knowledge. But blah to all that hummie, this is the Metaverse, we can see all and know all at any time just by taking off “volume” in “debug” and alt-left-clicking and mouse-right-clicking and zooming in, eh? Oops, or did I impart some arcane knowledge there? ROFL!

Um, it doesn’t matter if um, BDSM is uh…this hugely rich, diverse, variegated, teeming, robus world of colour and magic and um…stuff. It still follows some patterns among its various manifestations, and among these are the usual cult patterns like secrecy, a strong leader, sensory deprivation, immunitiy to criticism — look up the phrase “group-think” on wikipedia.org if you don’t like rickross.com definitions. I find that the practioners, far from being the genteel and refined creatures they imagine to be, practice this very headfucking, manipulative behaviour on people just in the common space who happen to run across them, to do businesss with them, to participate in a town hall, whatever. I find that they seem to blur the distictions between their domain, where they are Master of All They Survey (now hmm…where did they put their car keys? remember my parody of Lord Cheetah in TSO)….and the Rest of Us. I find these folks imperiously demanding literalist and specious applications of rules to favour them, haughty and condescending and suspicious approaches to those that merely wander in to look at their builds…freaking and screeching manipulative lying about even the most basic agreeements — in short, well, accountable, asshole behaviour, of which there is never any shortage in Second Life, trust me.

All this safe and sane stuff, which used to be repeated very heavily in TSO to create some kind of firewall between those communities and the *actual children — and I mean 9 years old!* in this public space..is never, ever heard. Instead, you find those idiotic profiles of people speaking in themselves in the third person like they are chattel, “This girl is the property of Master Asshole-of-the-Universe, any questions about this girl go to Master-Asshole,” and then Master Asshole’s profile bragging about all the people he’s got on his chain, as you point out.

Indeed, within five seconds of happening to just go look at a pretty Gorean build I’d been told about, I was having an argument with one of these Master Assholes, and far from engaging in those sort of genteel and nuanced and infinitely special convos you seem to think the “better” ones engage in, he was bragging to me that his group was “collaring” 10 people a day, and even turning away applications. That sort of thing just turns my stomach. You’re seeming to carve out some intellectually pretty and glittery version of BDSM that at least has no mass tastes like “we have 100 collars a month” etc. Yet like the Lindens, the Gor people are growing along with the platform and want to have a good big chunk of those million that the Lindens want to bring in the door, so they don’t really seem to mind the mass taste, the crassness, the abuses of their own cultic concepts, etc.

Um, Avah, we pretty much finished with the topic of “No Pain, No Fun” if you mean, gee, how can you have “fun” in a game with no pain? Well, go and read the thread on Terra Nova to get more “insights” but I think hummie summed it up: there can be a great deal of psychic pain, and if you doubt it, go look at the human wrecks in some of these service groups that the BDSM people themselves have set up to take care of their own cult’s victims.

i am speaking from six months of first hand experience and watching of D/s and Gor in SL. and i wish it to be ABSOLUTELY and COMPLETELY CLEAR that anything i may say here
is ABSOLUTELY NEVER INTENDED to reflect upon the individual who was my Dom/me.

that individual was scrupulously honest in dealings with me.
that individual was concerned about the practice of my RL profession,
and helped me to become better at it by his/her guidance and advice
and concern.
that person was an individual to whom the words TRUTH and HONOR have
real meanings meant to be applied in one’s LIFE.

that this person was human and came to the end of what can only be described
as an extraordinarily long fuse is no fault of that individual, but is rather
the fault of my own temperament, which is passionate, intense, and prone to express
itself in metaphor more than in plain language.

i loved this individual as much as is possible to love an individual in this
strange and somewhat emotionally and psychologically dishonest cartoon world, the
dishonesties of which are NEVER EVER even addressed by those responsible for them,
that is to say, the Linden Labs, who go out playfully into the world and say “can’t do it out THERE?? do it HERE!!” as if there were no human economy of action or feeling at work in relationship between persons behind the cartoons.

i say this because i know that prokkie will come ranting about what prokkie rants
about, which is strange and reductionist, and which is to a large extent built on booklearning rather than lifelearning about these things. and prokkie will blame
the Dom/me because that is a logical thing for a reductionist argument to do.

But.

This was my experience and my life
and I was there.
and i know what happened.
and i will have nothing said against
the Person who was my Dom/me.

truth, honor, and self-honesty
are good things i think.