I got the Linden VAT notification ON THE SAME DAY as the bill for the VAT. And, if the times mentioned on my Account History page and in the LL email are all within the same timezone, one can say I was charged BEFORE receiving the notification.

Way to go Linden!
/sarcasm

The whole idea that resident-to-resident transactions are not affected is just silly. Something like this will affect the economy at every level as people hit with the higher payments will need to offset by raising prices. So whether it is called VAT when it gets to the SL consumer or not, this will impact most residents.

However, I can’t feel too bad, this is, after all, the sort of government that europeans have voted for. If they want to change it, they should first drop the idea that government can solve their problems.

For those who have already gotten that far, but are outnumbered by the masses who continue to believe that its right for two wolves and a sheep to vote whats for dinner, we at BNT have a solution: move to our estates. As we are based in the US state of New Hampshire, we have zero sales tax, no state personal income tax, and no VAT. We have no point of sale in Europe, so we are not obligated to collect VAT.

Moving to our estates in Surreal BT and Ancapistan gets you not only rock bottom land prices at 2000L$ per 512 square meters, but the tier you pay is to us, not LL, so there will not be VAT on either your land purchase or tier payments. Our covenant also is the only one which subscribes to the Common Economic Protocols, which protects the property rights of landowners in our sims.

All but one of our sims are Class 5 sims (the one we first started in, Magritte, is a Class 4), and are not surrounded on all sides by others, like you see on the mainland, which minimizes lag. We also have lag control policies of no more than 1 ms of script lag per 4k square meters.

European sim owners who wish to escape VAT are also encouraged to transfer their sims to us under RL contract, where we recognise their property rights so long as tier remains paid (we do have grace periods).

In case you haven’t noticed by the overall quality of SL, they tend to scurry at the last second a lot!

We could do the hip internet thing and blame LL for this, but who’s tax is it?

“Given that people do indeed need notification, and given that even Eurocratic judges could probably accept the notion of a 21 or 30 day lead time, the Lindens shouldn’t bill this until they truly have cleared all people’s billing cycles in a 30-day window which is really 60 days or whatever.”

Yes. Which is all people talking about the ‘notice’ thing are saying. You keep ranting ‘It’s the next bill, the next bill…’ as if it’s idiotic for people to say they have had no warning and then accept that people aren’t getting a fair warning.
Nil Points for Trolling there methinks.
I get the feeling I will have to repeat this at some point.

“Concentrate on the REMEDY YOU SEEK rather than ranting and raving about lawsuits and evil blood-for-oil Americans.”

Hmmm…. Has anyone said anything about ‘evil blood-for-oil Americans’?
Me thinks you doth protest too much… aaaaannnnyway… its not particular nationalities that are at issue. It’s a particular company. LL.

“THAT is how you have to look at it, rather than fussing that YOUR GOVERNMENT’s sustaining YOUR SOCIALISM want to whack at this company — and you.”

Sorry no idea what this means. I get the idea you lean somewhat to the right.

Actually, “it” is using just common sense and logic, which is in short supply with commentators like you.
But Prok, mate, it isn’t, honestly… its about being an argumentative know it all. Discussion is a two (or more) way thing, it isn’t the world according to Prokofy Neva. Thats for your blog. Which is great, by the way, seriously.

And I assume that “commentators like you” means people who question your knowledge on a subject because otherwise you have no idea what I am like.
I don’t know what you do in RL apart from wittering on obscure corners of the internet and playing online games most people have never heard of, but its not possible for you to be an expert on everything. Sorry.
We are all trying to figure out LL’s latest PR fuck up and you keep piping up with personal comments and demonstrably incorrect statements stated as fact. Why you always do that? It doesn’t help.

“Well, dumbass,
There yer go…

Dribbling fuck wit.
THAT’S an insult.

“that’s because your tier date happens to fall on Oct. 3. Mine happens to fall on October 20. Somebody else’s falls on Oct. 27. You were not debited THAT instant — you WILL BE debited on Oct. 3. It’s tough, all over, I sympathize. So either don’t pay it, seek a viable remedy, or tier down. We’ve all had to face sudden and nasty shocks from the Lindens all the time for years.”

Yes. Which is all people talking about the ‘notice’ thing are saying. You keep ranting ‘It’s the next bill, the next bill…’ as if it’s idiotic for people to say they have had no warning and then accept that people aren’t getting a fair warning.
Nil Points for Trolling.
I knew I was going to have to say that again.

“So either don’t pay it, seek a viable remedy, or tier down”

Is your advice that if a company draws a potentially illegal payment from my bank account that I should roll with it? And the potentially illegal aspect came from my bank manager who also advised I talk to the tax office on Monday.
Prok, its largely about an implementation that might be seriously flawed.
Should I defer my bank manager to you so that you can sort it out between you?

“…which they cannot indeed be expected to absorb…”
Why can’t LL absorb the cost? With a reset price to include tax across the board and changes to the amount of tier allowed? Heck, they may even be able to get more pennies out of no EU residents. And if you didn’t like that you could either not pay it, seek a viable remedy, or tier down… to coin a phrase.

Also LL continues to misrepresent the price. There is nothing on the webpage Membership Plans pertaining to VAT. IF anyone is bothering to sign up with SL nowadays the price to him or her is being illegally stated to Europeans. REGARDLESS THAT THEY ARE A U.S. COMPANY.
I suggested:
EU residents to talk to their tax office rather than feeding Trolls on the internet.
Prok replied:
“Whereupon we’ll have a million separate opinions, some correct, some conjecture. Experts on this may be talking through their ass, as they have never dealt with interstate commerce, ecommerce, etc.”
My apologies, I stand corrected. We SHOULD be taking advice from Internet trolls…

“…why you think the American company Linden Lab should provide a tax haven, a tax-free business enterprise solution, and a free enterprise zone for you, for the rest of your life?”

I don’t. My point is only that LL need to correctly set their prices across the board and then give the legally required notice to take extra monies from my bank account. But I don’t expect you to see that point.
If they have been absorbing / paying / ignoring / the VAT thus far (according to which Linden one believes) why rush it in now? Why not do it with some respect for their customers?

And finally can I ask a question? You do realise that no one has ever heard of any of us don’t you?

Malroy
Ps sorry everyone I fed the Troll. I realise s/he is your troll and I shouldn’t interfere…

Perhaps that’s because you are in a class of people whose tier due dates happen to fall nearer the date of the announcement, rather than farther. The notice says the NEXT bill. You were not billed and debited THAT DAY; indeed, you were NOTIFIED it was coming.

Let’s try to determine, rather than blathering in irate and fuming hypotheticals, what the class of people are who really bought sims and paid higher tier in the last 30 days. Um…200 people perhaps? Tops? There has been a decline of premiums, and a slump in the economy, even for Europeans with their stronger currencies that are at a 10 percent or more advantage against us Americans in the SL economic game — by the way.

So, for this class of people, you could propose a remedy — say, simply a failure to bill them, let their bills not hit for 7-10 days. Concentrate on the REMEDY YOU SEEK rather than ranting and raving about lawsuits and evil blood-for-oil Americans.

Oh, you say, everybody who bought land since the dawn of time is also stuck? But how long did you think the American company Linden Lab could keep open this tax-free holiday in this free enterprise zone for you? THAT is how you have to look at it, rather than fussing that YOUR GOVERNMENT’s sustaining YOUR SOCIALISM want to whack at this company — and you.

Given that people do indeed need notification, and given that even Eurocratic judges could probably accept the notion of a 21 or 30 day lead time, the Lindens shouldn’t bill this until they truly have cleared all people’s billing cycles in a 30-day window which is really 60 days or whatever.

So the Lindens, in my view, could do nothing, which they’re good at doing, and let their lousy billing system, which isn’t billing many accounts anyway due to their wierd freezes on them, and just not bill the accounts. Europeans could also just not pay — and there is no penalty for 7 days.

If your account didn’t receive notification, perhaps the IP isn’t recognizable.

I’ll bet even if the Lindens posted a blog for 60 days notice, put on a blue screen and MOTD, there’d still be people screaming.

The invocation of RL costs are really immaterial. Your advantage in the SL economy is what’s under discussion here, and that has been considerable.

But why let facts get in the way of a rant?

—-

Once again Prokofy Neva know nothing of what it speaks, but it does sound clever, which is the desired effect we have to assume.

Actually, “it” is using just common sense and logic, which is in short supply with commentators like you.

>Personally I was informed yesterday of the VAT ruling and it requires payment on 3rd Oct.
Not 30 days.

Well, dumbass, that’s because your tier date happens to fall on Oct. 3. Mine happens to fall on October 20. Somebody else’s falls on Oct. 27. You were not debited THAT instant — you WILL BE debited on Oct. 3. It’s tough, all over, I sympathize. So either don’t pay it, seek a viable remedy, or tier down. We’ve all had to face sudden and nasty shocks from the Lindens all the time for years.

>”So they haven’t “lied” about any price; they haven’t misadvertised any price; they haven’t “not included” any price — in fact they have given a 30-day notice to their customers that next month, the VAT, which they cannot indeed be expected to absorb as it is 19 or 25 percent in most countries, is indeed going to be added on and included in the bill they’ll be getting.”

They haven’t lied. They just told you they are adding this VAT as required in the next billing cycle. Where is the lie?

They have given a billing cycle’s notice, and yes, you are absolutely right, for some unfortunates, that means not an actual calendar 30 days, but 1 day or 10 days *until their next billing cycle*. So that means 60 days would have been required — but was that feasible?

So figure out what is a reasonable remedy, or don’t pay. But they aren’t lying, nor am I.

>The rest of its post is largely non nonsensical ranting based on no understanding of the situation whatsoever, but hey thats why Prok is here.

No, it’s just common sense and logic, which is in short supply on this discussion.

>My suggestion would simply be for EU residents to talk to their tax office rather than feeding Trolls on the internet.

Whereupon we’ll have a million separate opinions, some correct, some conjecture. Experts on this may be talking through their ass, as they have never dealt with interstate commerce, ecommerce, etc.

As we’ve been told ad nauseam, VAT must be included in X percent for X country on all items eligible. And the price WILL reflect that inclusion in the next billing cycle and WILL be higher.

What I’m struck by in all these discussions is how hysterical these Europeans are about tax paperwork. They need to have a Boston Tea Party.

>Or does that take the Drama out of it?

No, what takes the drama out of it is asking you why you think the American company Linden Lab should provide a tax haven, a tax-free business enterprise solution, and a free enterprise zone for you, for the rest of your life?

If I’m residing outside of the European Union and buying something from an US company while in the USA, with an US IP# and paying for it in US$ with an European credit card/bank account, why should I pay VAT?