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	<title>Comments on: Op/Ed: Whose Product Is It?</title>
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	<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html</link>
	<description>Always Fairly Unbalanced</description>
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		<title>By: Artemis Fate</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12389</link>
		<dc:creator>Artemis Fate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 12:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12389</guid>
		<description>Freedom of speech doesn&#039;t really apply because this is a privately owned service, and they can deny service or deny access to their own events to anyone they want.  Just look at any nazi stuff, not pleasant, but still falls under freedom of speech in America, but in SL any groups made with it, most any use of the swastika (even non-nazi uses), are pretty much banned on the spot.  A real freedom of speech society would have to allow that, because you have to allow the bad with the good, but SL isn&#039;t a society nor do they have freedom of speech, and so if they want to limit the &quot;How to properly beat, starve, and subjugate a woman so she&#039;ll lick your boots&quot; displays, they can.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Freedom of speech doesn&#8217;t really apply because this is a privately owned service, and they can deny service or deny access to their own events to anyone they want.  Just look at any nazi stuff, not pleasant, but still falls under freedom of speech in America, but in SL any groups made with it, most any use of the swastika (even non-nazi uses), are pretty much banned on the spot.  A real freedom of speech society would have to allow that, because you have to allow the bad with the good, but SL isn&#8217;t a society nor do they have freedom of speech, and so if they want to limit the &#8220;How to properly beat, starve, and subjugate a woman so she&#8217;ll lick your boots&#8221; displays, they can.</p>
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		<title>By: Lykurgus</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12388</link>
		<dc:creator>Lykurgus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12388</guid>
		<description>&quot;The problem with the extremism of Gor, BDSM, and Creepy Kids...&quot;
&quot;...inserts Asian-Values type of spins on things where possible, instead of understanding the First Amendment in the country where she ostensibly studied law school&quot;

Point of fact - a verbatim reading of the First Amendment can be said to protect extremist views and publications of any type.
And since you just HAD to exhume the &quot;Reds under the bed&quot; corpse, I trust you&#039;re aware that one of our most fanatical anti-Commoes(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rupertmurdoch.jpg )was invaluable to Chinas media-filtering efforts?

No?

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The problem with the extremism of Gor, BDSM, and Creepy Kids&#8230;&#8221;<br />
&#8220;&#8230;inserts Asian-Values type of spins on things where possible, instead of understanding the First Amendment in the country where she ostensibly studied law school&#8221;</p>
<p>Point of fact &#8211; a verbatim reading of the First Amendment can be said to protect extremist views and publications of any type.<br />
And since you just HAD to exhume the &#8220;Reds under the bed&#8221; corpse, I trust you&#8217;re aware that one of our most fanatical anti-Commoes(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rupertmurdoch.jpg )was invaluable to Chinas media-filtering efforts?</p>
<p>No?</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12387</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 08:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12387</guid>
		<description>&gt;[A] problem with the extremism of Gor, BDSM, and Creepy Kids, is that they...drive out furries.

&gt;They are not tolerant; they scream about forcing others to tolerate them, but they are not tolerant of ANY criticism or pushback against their efforts to take over, everywhere, and bleed their....nausteating dysfunction into the public space.

OH THE IRONY

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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>[A] problem with the extremism of Gor, BDSM, and Creepy Kids, is that they&#8230;drive out furries.</p>
<p>>They are not tolerant; they scream about forcing others to tolerate them, but they are not tolerant of ANY criticism or pushback against their efforts to take over, everywhere, and bleed their&#8230;.nausteating dysfunction into the public space.</p>
<p>OH THE IRONY</p>
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		<title>By: Reality</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12386</link>
		<dc:creator>Reality</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 07:18:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12386</guid>
		<description>Hate to break it to you Prok Dearie but there was no &#039;misrepresentation&#039; at all.

If someone dares to disagree with you in any field you have this amusing tendency to turn around and apply some imaginary group to them, cite that this group is somehow out to get you and cap it all off by attempting to silence them and have others do the exact same thing.

Yet heaven forbid someone do the same thing to you!

Grow up Dearie. Your tactics belong in post World War Two America - not in these more modern times.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hate to break it to you Prok Dearie but there was no &#8216;misrepresentation&#8217; at all.</p>
<p>If someone dares to disagree with you in any field you have this amusing tendency to turn around and apply some imaginary group to them, cite that this group is somehow out to get you and cap it all off by attempting to silence them and have others do the exact same thing.</p>
<p>Yet heaven forbid someone do the same thing to you!</p>
<p>Grow up Dearie. Your tactics belong in post World War Two America &#8211; not in these more modern times.</p>
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		<title>By: Prokofy Neva</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12385</link>
		<dc:creator>Prokofy Neva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12385</guid>
		<description>&gt;Re: &#039;Second, because those who practice Gor and BDSM are extremists and while they are allowed to speak, they are not allowed to speak in public places.&quot;

This is a misrepresentation of the position I took, for example, and yet another example of how Miss Jessica inserts Asian-Values type of spins on things where possible, instead of understanding the First Amendment in the country where she ostensibly studied law school.

The problem with the extremism of Gor, BDSM, and Creepy Kids, is that they drive out everybody else. They even drive out each other at times, or they drive out furries. They are not tolerant; they scream about forcing others to tolerate them, but they are not tolerant of ANY criticism or pushback against their efforts to take over, everywhere, and bleed their slavery, violence, and nausteating dysfunction into the public space.

It&#039;s not about them &quot;not being tolerated to speak in the public space&quot;. It&#039;s about the problem of how once they are brought in, they drive everyone else away. It&#039;s not just the discomfort level people feel; it&#039;s that the entire tone of the event changes. It becomes Fringe; it becomes dystopian. And that&#039;s wrong.

I think the Lindens did the right thing as a social policy to have a PG Birthday at which extremist representations like this are not portayed. Again, the Lindens didn&#039;t say &quot;No Goreans, BDSM, or Creepy Kids can come&quot;. They said *they can&#039;t enter builds into the space*.

Are builds exactly the same thing as speech? Well, perhaps, technically, one might find them as such, and

Once again, Miss Jessica is being terribly selective and tendentious, because she finds it perfectly acceptable for China to keep out dissidents from the Internet and even jail them, and says this is &quot;the law,&quot; and ISPs and VWPs have to abide by it, but the minute any of her extremist subcultural gonzo journo life is encroached upon in her mind, she screeches &quot;Censorship!&quot;

The mistake any of us make is the belief that we are indispensable. As Kenny Linden explained, &quot;There&#039;s always another guy to buy the island.&quot; $60,000 in tier is chump change, and a nothing compared to the prospects of having that $60,000 foreclose on millions of other tier from big corporations, governments, schools, ordinary end users who are turned off by slavery and violence. And that&#039;s fine. It&#039;s normal.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>>Re: &#8216;Second, because those who practice Gor and BDSM are extremists and while they are allowed to speak, they are not allowed to speak in public places.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is a misrepresentation of the position I took, for example, and yet another example of how Miss Jessica inserts Asian-Values type of spins on things where possible, instead of understanding the First Amendment in the country where she ostensibly studied law school.</p>
<p>The problem with the extremism of Gor, BDSM, and Creepy Kids, is that they drive out everybody else. They even drive out each other at times, or they drive out furries. They are not tolerant; they scream about forcing others to tolerate them, but they are not tolerant of ANY criticism or pushback against their efforts to take over, everywhere, and bleed their slavery, violence, and nausteating dysfunction into the public space.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not about them &#8220;not being tolerated to speak in the public space&#8221;. It&#8217;s about the problem of how once they are brought in, they drive everyone else away. It&#8217;s not just the discomfort level people feel; it&#8217;s that the entire tone of the event changes. It becomes Fringe; it becomes dystopian. And that&#8217;s wrong.</p>
<p>I think the Lindens did the right thing as a social policy to have a PG Birthday at which extremist representations like this are not portayed. Again, the Lindens didn&#8217;t say &#8220;No Goreans, BDSM, or Creepy Kids can come&#8221;. They said *they can&#8217;t enter builds into the space*.</p>
<p>Are builds exactly the same thing as speech? Well, perhaps, technically, one might find them as such, and</p>
<p>Once again, Miss Jessica is being terribly selective and tendentious, because she finds it perfectly acceptable for China to keep out dissidents from the Internet and even jail them, and says this is &#8220;the law,&#8221; and ISPs and VWPs have to abide by it, but the minute any of her extremist subcultural gonzo journo life is encroached upon in her mind, she screeches &#8220;Censorship!&#8221;</p>
<p>The mistake any of us make is the belief that we are indispensable. As Kenny Linden explained, &#8220;There&#8217;s always another guy to buy the island.&#8221; $60,000 in tier is chump change, and a nothing compared to the prospects of having that $60,000 foreclose on millions of other tier from big corporations, governments, schools, ordinary end users who are turned off by slavery and violence. And that&#8217;s fine. It&#8217;s normal.</p>
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		<title>By: Darien Caldwell</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12384</link>
		<dc:creator>Darien Caldwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:49:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12384</guid>
		<description>Bah, misread your Monthly as Yearly. Nevermind :)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bah, misread your Monthly as Yearly. Nevermind <img src='http://alphavilleherald.com/site/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Darien Caldwell</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12383</link>
		<dc:creator>Darien Caldwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12383</guid>
		<description>While I somewhat agree with the article, I find the assertion that because a group contributes $59,000.00 a year to Linden Lab, they should get special consideration. Now that I&#039;m closing my Estate, I&#039;ll let you in on a little secret, I was making LL $40,000 a year myself.  Just me, alone. And in the terms of land holdings, I was very small. There are a myriad of Land Barons and Estates that make LL far, far more. Who do you think LL will give special treatment to, in the end?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I somewhat agree with the article, I find the assertion that because a group contributes $59,000.00 a year to Linden Lab, they should get special consideration. Now that I&#8217;m closing my Estate, I&#8217;ll let you in on a little secret, I was making LL $40,000 a year myself.  Just me, alone. And in the terms of land holdings, I was very small. There are a myriad of Land Barons and Estates that make LL far, far more. Who do you think LL will give special treatment to, in the end?</p>
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		<title>By: DagnyT Dagger</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12382</link>
		<dc:creator>DagnyT Dagger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:09:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12382</guid>
		<description>@General Drama

Um...you *DO* realize this is role play right? Not real life slavery?

Ok...just checking.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@General Drama</p>
<p>Um&#8230;you *DO* realize this is role play right? Not real life slavery?</p>
<p>Ok&#8230;just checking.</p>
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		<title>By: Ava Cartier</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12381</link>
		<dc:creator>Ava Cartier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:03:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12381</guid>
		<description>QUOTE: &quot;Mind you the Adult Goreans are no better banning all us Gorean Kids from their cities, forcing us to have our own homestone and kennels.&quot;

Children in kennels...I got into trouble for that once. I made a girlfriend on the inside and my sons have yet to forgive me.

So how is a child in a kennel &quot;legal&quot;, but any other act with a child per SL is not? I just don&#039;t understand. Sex is abuse under a certain age but detaining by kennel is not? Where&#039;s the line?


</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>QUOTE: &#8220;Mind you the Adult Goreans are no better banning all us Gorean Kids from their cities, forcing us to have our own homestone and kennels.&#8221;</p>
<p>Children in kennels&#8230;I got into trouble for that once. I made a girlfriend on the inside and my sons have yet to forgive me.</p>
<p>So how is a child in a kennel &#8220;legal&#8221;, but any other act with a child per SL is not? I just don&#8217;t understand. Sex is abuse under a certain age but detaining by kennel is not? Where&#8217;s the line?</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth Nelson</title>
		<link>http://alphavilleherald.com/2008/06/oped-whose-prod.html/comment-page-1#comment-12380</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wp_2/?p=674#comment-12380</guid>
		<description>Linden Labs own the grid, it&#039;s their world, despite what the marketing says and quite frankly people who take the marketing seriously and think the world belongs to the users are amusing.

However......

That does not make them immune from criticism, for example the fact that sexual ageplay is already banned comes to mind. If that is the case, why did they initially ban all child avatar orientated builds from SL5B? Since sexual ageplay is banned, it&#039;s obvious they&#039;d remove sexually orientated builds from child avatars, but what about innocent sandcastles etc? What comes to mind here is that people are linking &quot;children == too sexual for a PG area&quot;. That is way more disturbing to me than 2 adults roleplaying in private.

As for Gor/BDSM, if they want to make SL5B more PG now then it&#039;s up to them. From a business viewpoint it makes sense not to market themselves (and SL5B is a big marketing thing to an extent) on the sexual aspects of SL unless they want to be branded as an adult entertainment provider.

Some virtual worlds (red light center comes to mind) are intended as adult entertainment, some aren&#039;t intended as adult entertainment but are full of it anyway (like SL). If your ISP doesn&#039;t filter porn but doesn&#039;t actually advertise &quot;you can download porn on our service&quot; then it isn&#039;t discriminating, it&#039;s just appealing to the largest target audience. Second Life is the same: LL know there&#039;s tons of sexual content out there and they aren&#039;t banning all of it (emphasis on ALL of it), but that doesn&#039;t mean they have to promote it. However, when they start blatantly discriminating against certain communities beyond simple non-promotion then that&#039;s another issue entirely.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Linden Labs own the grid, it&#8217;s their world, despite what the marketing says and quite frankly people who take the marketing seriously and think the world belongs to the users are amusing.</p>
<p>However&#8230;&#8230;</p>
<p>That does not make them immune from criticism, for example the fact that sexual ageplay is already banned comes to mind. If that is the case, why did they initially ban all child avatar orientated builds from SL5B? Since sexual ageplay is banned, it&#8217;s obvious they&#8217;d remove sexually orientated builds from child avatars, but what about innocent sandcastles etc? What comes to mind here is that people are linking &#8220;children == too sexual for a PG area&#8221;. That is way more disturbing to me than 2 adults roleplaying in private.</p>
<p>As for Gor/BDSM, if they want to make SL5B more PG now then it&#8217;s up to them. From a business viewpoint it makes sense not to market themselves (and SL5B is a big marketing thing to an extent) on the sexual aspects of SL unless they want to be branded as an adult entertainment provider.</p>
<p>Some virtual worlds (red light center comes to mind) are intended as adult entertainment, some aren&#8217;t intended as adult entertainment but are full of it anyway (like SL). If your ISP doesn&#8217;t filter porn but doesn&#8217;t actually advertise &#8220;you can download porn on our service&#8221; then it isn&#8217;t discriminating, it&#8217;s just appealing to the largest target audience. Second Life is the same: LL know there&#8217;s tons of sexual content out there and they aren&#8217;t banning all of it (emphasis on ALL of it), but that doesn&#8217;t mean they have to promote it. However, when they start blatantly discriminating against certain communities beyond simple non-promotion then that&#8217;s another issue entirely.</p>
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