Did Official Live Helper Threaten Goons Over Furry Ageplay Report?
by Urizenus Sklar on 22/11/06 at 3:30 pm
Goons Allegedly Threatened with DMCA Action for “Mockery”
Don’t fuck with THIS Offical Live Helper. Image via Petey at Something Awful.
A recent post on the Something Awful site has exposed the seldom talked about fault lines in the Second Life Community and raised a number of difficult issues. When an earlier post on Something Awful satirized a store that sold artwork with a furry ageplay theme, allegedly, a diaper wearing furry (following the goons, let’s call him Baby Wolfie) who is also allegedly a member of Linden’s Official Live Help (and also teaches scripting classes?) interceded on behalf of the owner of The Baby Tiger Den, threatening the Goons (if the chat logs are accurate) with DMCA action, abuse reports to Lindens etc.
Independently of the veracity of the Something Awful report, the issues raised are these: Can it really be a violation of privacy and/or copyright to expose activities that some feel border on pedophilia, or which may cater to the fetish? Clearly we do not wish to draw that connection quickly — there should be lots of space for fantasy roleplay — but when items are placed for sale in a public space should it not be possible to have an informed debate about the items placed in public and the attendant in-game practices, and doesn’t “informed debate” require access to publicly available images? We’ve been down this road before with the case of the RP 8yr old sex slave Sasami Wishbringer . We will keep encountering the problem until we have a serious debate about the limits of privacy and the right to “snap pictures” of questionable builds in public places — not for texture theft, but for debate about online practices, and yes, satire and mockery.
Alleged letter from Baby Wolfie to the Goons.
Greetings, I have recently been in formed in Second life about a webpage from this site, http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=4206&p=2 That invides the Second Life’s ToS in two Sections, First Priavcy And Second Copy Right based on artwork and Work that had no permission to be posted on this site, I am BabyWolfie in the second life a Offical Live Instructors, I was very displeased when I seen my friends Nice work and nice home was Turned into a huge Mockery, I ask that remove this acritcle along with this article http://www.somethingawful.com/index.php?a=4206&p=4 due to very ToS Based on Second lifes agreements, I have aready contacted the lindens about this, And they invisigateing this, They agreed it was in brech of copy right and privacy strandeds, But I am requesting these articels be removed for false lies and Mockery of the creatity of others wich is just wrong, This is not just some game, people live in this world and do this for a living, this article is downing business and mocking the creatity of Second Life, As a WebMaster I hope you will understand how importain this is, and have a Kind heart to remove these two. Because its not something awfull, those guys make it seem like its something that is it not. Please Sir or Ma’am Owner webmaster of this Site, I ask with great kindness that you understand my reasons to send this email to you, please reply and we can discuss or talk about this, I would really apprcauite hearing from you, Thankyou For your time and I appoglise for any inconivtions I may have caused PS Sorry for the bad spelling, I’m one of the youngest Live instructors in second life, I’m use to team speak, Age 18 heh.
Freddy
Nov 22nd, 2006
Some of the “nice work” he is talking about is displayed in the “Star Trek” article. Much of it was way too risque to be posted even at SomethingAwful.
Bestiality and Pedophilia seems to be the chocolate and peanutbutter of many (rather large) groups in Second Life.
I make fun of fetishes and people who have cybersex in game. But the pedophilia and the bestiality (not just furry playing or ageplaying, but pornographic/erotic images of children) are really shameful.
And there are lots, and lots, and lots of examples of it all around Second Life. But you never see a mainstream news organization talk about it. They talk about all the cool brand-names in game, all the fun (and honestly legitimate) activities going on in-game, but they never talk about the huge, seedy underbelly that Second Life is attracting.
I find lots of S&M distasteful. I find lots of Star Wars sims or Furry sims nerdy. I find the ageplaying bizarre. But they are adults interacting with adults. They are not sexualizing children or animals. I like the wild-west attitude of second life where values and personalities clash, but you have to draw the line at some point.
As is pointed out by another Furry on the comment section of the video (in the article’s) youtube page, even “mainstream” furries distance themselves from the likes of “BabyWolfie.”
Triste
Nov 22nd, 2006
Well I have to wonder how literary pedophilia is treated. If someone writes a book or comic with underage sex – is that wrong? I know to me it is disgusting but is it legally wrong?
The other issue at hand here is screen shots are rather like photographs. If I go out, take a picture of a work, write about and publish the article without the creators consent what are the legal ramifications?
I don’t know the answer to either – so, if anyone else does may be food for though.
Triste
Nov 22nd, 2006
Well I have to wonder how literary pedophilia is treated. If someone writes a book or comic with underage sex – is that wrong? I know to me it is disgusting but is it legally wrong?
The other issue at hand here is screen shots are rather like photographs. If I go out, take a picture of a work, write about and publish the article without the creators consent what are the legal ramifications?
I don’t know the answer to either – so, if anyone else does may be food for though.
Freddy
Nov 22nd, 2006
>
Well I have to wonder how literary pedophilia is treated. If someone writes a book or comic with underage sex – is that wrong?
>
By underage do you mean teenager or preteen? Pedophilia is the eroticization of pre-pubescent children. A sexualized teenager might be creepy but it is nowhere near as wrong as sexualizing a child. Children don’t have sexual characteristics (or, at the very least, only have dim forshadowings). Images of pre-pubescent children designed to tittilate the sexual impulses of adults is pedophilia.
>
I know to me it is disgusting but is it legally wrong?
>
Regardless if it’s legally wrong (I think child erotica art is illegal in Canada, legal in other parts of the United States) is it really something that Linden Labs wants their software to be used for? Does LL consider the exchange of child pornography a legitimate use of their software?
And what will the companies that seem to be investing time and money in Second Life think about the free exchange of child erotica?
I mean, in SL, we disagree about a lot of stuff. I’m in W-Hat and I treat the boundries of taste like silly putty. But can we AT LEAST agree that treating pre-pubescent children like objects suitable for adult sexual satisfaction is bad?
>
The other issue at hand here is screen shots are rather like photographs. If I go out, take a picture of a work, write about and publish the article without the creators consent what are the legal ramifications?
>
They are screenshots in a game, like photographs. We aren’t selling images of their creations. We’re taking pictures of their creations and commenting on them. Even if that commentary is satire it’s still commentary. In my view that would constitute fair use. Now, if we were to take a screenshot of one of BabyWolfie’s “very good” pieces of “art” and start slapping it on t-shirts that might be different.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 22nd, 2006
It’s awful that the scandals and controversies around furries and ageplay would be allowed to obscure a much bigger threat here: the erosion of the right of the media — or anyone with a blog, for that matter — to take screenshots in SL and post them outside of SL.
If the Lindens claw back anything on that through this or similar cases, and make SL like a casino where photographing the patrons is not allowed, we’ll be experiencing a huge loss of freedom.
The TOS may have rules about copying and posting speech or even pictures (that bears checking) in the SL universe of billboards inside the world, chat with others, public meetings, the forums, the official blog.
But so far, thank God, the TOS does NOT overreach and try to govern behaviour outside its website.
If somebody starts speciously declaring that a screenshot of themselves in their avatar and their look or at their house is “art” and is “intellectual property,” we’re in for a very long and contentious ride. Because it’s just a photograph, and while it’s a courtesy to ask people’s pictures before photographing them and publishing the photo, there is *no law requiring this in SL*.
Hamlet Linden has already significantly eroded this concept by publishing articles where he puts on his screenshots things like ‘Property of Linden Lab” or “Used With Permission of Linden Lab”.
Linden Lab should not be having to grant permission every time a fanboy wants to put up a fansite — or even a serious, critical news article. Most games wouldn’t dream of imposing that kind of control because they realize it would kill off the fan part of the game which for many is more important even than the game itself.
I can see with many more RL corporations coming in, they may be a force for pushing LL into making it a bannable offense to publish screenshots. Corporate types won’t want their families to see them in a strip joint after they finish their boring sseminars on new digital technology blah blah.
I think that as odious as both Something Awful and the furry ageplayers are, the right of Something Awful to make legitimate “fair use” of a screenshot and use it for public commentary about anything they wish in SL, without LL intervening, is something the Herald and others should uphold.
I’ll bet this furry actually has nothing from LL. He may have a standard form letter that says the complaint is being investigated. I cannot believe that a Linden would have already rendered a ruling about copyright when they have been as far away as possible from doing that on anything else.
BTW, I’d love Tateru to comment on the prospect of user retention when newbies are being greeted by furry ageplayers in diapers.
Urizenus
Nov 22nd, 2006
I agree with pretty much all that prok says there. The real issue is the idea that we might need permission to take pictures of public events in world.
The additional issue of concern here, however, is that someone with an official Linden capacity of some form (Official Live Help) would intervene and threaten the poster with litigation and threaten to bring in Linden associates via abuse report. That is the real issue here.
That the Linden Live Helper happens to be a baby furry in diapers is a bit of a side story. (hmmm I never imagined I would have occasion to say that!)
eva
Nov 22nd, 2006
but boy howdy is that side story a juicy one!
(kinda like that baby furry’s diaper after dinner.)
Artemis Fate
Nov 22nd, 2006
I remember that. The guy, to make a bad pun, had a lot of bark but not bite. He could scream about DMCA violations and etc., but there’s nothing to back that up that taking pictures of something for a non-profit source is illegal. As long as you’re not SELLING the pictures it’s perfectly fine is my understanding.
Baby furs are really not quite the same as pedophilia, for them, sometimes it’s even not about being a child, but shitting your diaper in public. Some of them wear diapers in adult avs and do it.
Either way, this dumbass age play debate has been raging for too long, and it’s just a battle of “I don’t like it but it’s not technically illegal”
Freddy
Nov 22nd, 2006
“Baby furs are really not quite the same as pedophilia, for them, sometimes it’s even not about being a child, but shitting your diaper in public.”
Well, the house that we reviewed in our satire was full of children in erotic situations. Obviously we couldn’t put that on the website, but you get a pretty darn good taste from what we DID post.
Does LL do a background check on what people are doing before they allow them to represent the company in-world?
You know, if you want a real scoop, and not petty stuff about people making silly World Trade Center replicas, do a story on the widespread child erotica throughout second life. That might be something with substance in it.
You can start at the “Gay Yiff” club where pictures of children (as anthropomorphic animals) are depicted in sexual scenes, with erections, etc.
There, bam, you hit both pedophilia and bestiality at once. Kill two anthropomorphic birds with one stone.
Freddy
Nov 22nd, 2006
“it’s just a battle of “I don’t like it but it’s not technically illegal”
You know, people in the SL community talk about “naming and shaming” people for very petty things. Isn’t pornographic images of children a thousand times WORSE then something like Copybot or the mild inconveniences of a jerk with a self-replicating script?
Artemis Fate
Nov 22nd, 2006
You know, and god I hate that i’m half-way defending this, but the child pornography laws specifically mention that, from the last I saw, drawn or any sort of “fake” representations of child porn are legal. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s gross, but people do what they will with their second life and atleast for the most part it’s thankfully kept out of my face.
If they put up REAL pictures of REAL children getting fucked, then yeah that’s totally illegal.
I forgot what that guy’s name was so I can’t verify it, but the way I remember it, he’s not actually a live helper. He just says he is…a LOT.
Freddy
Nov 22nd, 2006
It’s not about what’s “illegal,” lots of the things that people complain about in SL are perfectly legal. Does Linden Labs want their product to be used as a meeting ground for hundreds of pedophiles to create pedophile clubs where they dress up like children and adults and have sex with one another? Or post erotic images of children?
Why doesn’t this get complained about as often as silly things like V5′s or W-Hat’s builds?
Why is it wrong to make a fetus cannon, but perfectly okay to distribute illustrations of 8 year olds with erections in sexual situations?
. . . and why do news organizations like the BBC and the New York Times and such completely ignore this (very large) side of Second Life?
(Although I do think it’s illegal in Canada.)
Artemis Fate
Nov 22nd, 2006
Well that’s why it comes back to the original statement:
“it’s just a battle of “I don’t like it but it’s not technically illegal”
news
Nov 22nd, 2006
Privacy? I’ve seen numerous sex acts between avatars in the open, behind “walls” that all can see through, and then there’s the sex clubs open to all. Privacy?
Prokofy Neva
Nov 22nd, 2006
>The additional issue of concern here, however, is that someone with an official Linden capacity of some form (Official Live Help) would intervene and threaten the poster with litigation and threaten to bring in Linden associates via abuse report. That is the real issue here.
Yes, and the fact that they invoke their Linden pals as already having given them a read-out — and this is what I mean by this system being corrupt and oppressive, Uri — and there is 1,000 of them. And NOW do you see what I mean — you think if we break up this corrupt and oppressive Jeska-endorsed mentor/greeter/helper system, we’ll be oppressed in the other direction by clubs forcing people into indentured sexual servitude. But my point is that the Live Help racket *itself* is already doing that in the Company’s name and for free, and that having the market regulate it through enhanced freedom and access for everybody means that NCI and the Shelter as much as Anshe’s or Prok’s rentals or any other tourguide service could be competing with little baby furries in diapers with too much power using the socialist subbotnik system. See?
>That the Linden Live Helper happens to be a baby furry in diapers is a bit of a side story. (hmmm I never imagined I would have occasion to say that!)
Yes, Herald comedy gold, that one!
Freddy
Nov 22nd, 2006
>>>>
Well that’s why it comes back to the original statement:
“it’s just a battle of “I don’t like it but it’s not technically illegal”"
<<<<<
That describes about 85% of all disputes in Second Life. I don’t understand the lack of enthusiasm to “name and shame” pedophile organizations. I also don’t understand why a racist organization would be banned immediately but a club full of illustrations of children engaged in sexual activity is considered ‘not illegal’ and just ‘free speech.’ *shrug*
Petey
Nov 23rd, 2006
Well I guess I missed the debate on my behalf.
Prokofy, again, I am surprised by our agreement. Everything in that article was clear fair use.
Everything in BabyTiger’s Den is also legal under United States law. I don’t care whether or not it is legal. I retain my right to find it ridiculous, and will, within the bounds of the law, share public material with the public for humorous exploitation.
Oh, and believe me, there is nothing “alleged” about that article. The only thing missing from the update is the two page letter I wrote Tsu Goodliffe after the final letter printed in the article, where I told him that I would change his name for the update so that he could avoid further harassment and where I explained the vagaries of the laws he had attempted to invoke.
I’ll reprint it here, if you like.
Of course, Tsu decided to then threaten me FURTHER on the YouTube comment box, so he identified himself to the inevitable goon rush.
Listen, regardless of what any of you may think, I’m actually a very nice person. But my tolerance only goes so far, and the area within the boundries does not necessarily provide total mercy when, in my office as a comedy writer, I am presented with an illiterate babyfur employee of Second Life who is making illegitimate legal threats against my person.
If anybody has any questions, or wishes to know the intricacy of this drama, I’m here.
Petey
Nov 23rd, 2006
Oh, and Prokofy:
I am well acquainted with your vendetta against the FIC. That said, I don’t believe this is an instance of it. If you google Tsu’s various handles, you’ll see that he appends “Official Second Life Live Instructor” to almost every one.
This was less of a Linden employee using his “pull” than of a sad case of someone who happened to be a Linden contractor grossly misinterpreting his legal legitimacy and also my–well, duty, almost–to mock him for such fanciful claims.
I mean, I felt bad that he was so earnestly stupid. But again, I sent him a long, long email explaining everything. He needn’t have even been identified–this could have been an anonymous example of excess and deviancy in Second Life. He’s the one who chose to identify himself not just to me in the emails, but to everyone on Youtube.
Petey
Nov 23rd, 2006
Oh, you guys were keeping the BabyWolfie name. Go ahead and edit my comment to reflect that, and then delete this post if you want. I get confused as to who calls him what. It’s a side effect with attempting to weave a web of protection around him, one that is only more complicated when he himself breaks it.
tp
Nov 23rd, 2006
Maybe it’s a new conspiracy to fill any kind of live help with mentally ill pedophiles to scare away people who would want live help. I would probably orbit/blitz anything that looked like a baby wolf shitting itself and sucking on a pacifier if it spawned anywhere near me.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 23rd, 2006
Live Help aren’t official, and aren’t paid staff, and have no formal status at all. They are merely volunteers. It’s a violation of the TOS to misrepresent yourself as a Linden, i.e. official and/or staff. He should be abuse-reported.
tp
Nov 23rd, 2006
This is the disclaimer at that homestead. Cub attitude… this shit would make Micheal Jackson cringe lol.
Letting your inner child run free on on Second Life can be a lot of fun. But just like that mythical place called the real world, there are people who will want to ruin your fun, or will try to force you to do things you don’t want to.
Places with the “Safe” sign are designated as place where you can be a youngster, tiny, babyfur — or whatever — and feel safe. If you find yourself being harassed by a person at a location displaying this sign, just tell the location’s owner: they will take action, including banning the offender from the property as well as filing an abuse report.
Stay safe and have fun!
BabyTiger’s Den and the Crib Club Management
So they provide protection for other wierdo’s who want to pretend to be childimals.
There is also some disturbing t-shirts for sale like. “Peeing your pants is cool”
And “Does my nappy look big in this” or “No Smacking”
Petey
Nov 23rd, 2006
See, that’s the difference between me and you, Prokofy. One of them, anyway.
My first response is not to hit the abuse report button.
No harm done. No blood, no foul. BabyWolfie slunk off with his tail between his legs. There’s no need to pile on.
TP:
See, I recognize anyone’s right to be different. But I believe they must recognize my right to think them idiots. If they are still ashamed by their behavior, then there is something wrong with their cognitive processes. They aren’t being earnest with themselves.
tp
Nov 23rd, 2006
Well until someone gets an interview with babyyiger’s den it’s all speculation.
I didn’t see anything sexual on that particular property but I didn’t look much besides tha t store. Stuff in the shop was odd enough.
BabyTiger
Nov 23rd, 2006
Hello, I noticed everyone keeps posting about this topic, and using my lands name “BabyTiger’s Den” The land is for ageplayers, Adults playing as younger characters, no matter what race, sex persuasion or age, and has no support for Child Pronography, or any like causes, nor will it be posted on the land by me. All the artwork posted on the walls, were tasteful, as you can see on the Something awful report. The land was created as a club for families, friends, and younger avatars and is maintained by a group of individuals. I am free to talk to anyone who wishes to speak about the land, its guidelines and rules, as well as its policies. Yes the store may sell child clothing, toys, and other needs, but it helps the market which is looking for good products at a low price, and will continue to sell the atricles. As for the something Awful article. Thank you for boosting the sales and supporting the land, Any publicity is good publicity they say.
BT
Ordinal Malaprop
Nov 23rd, 2006
This strikes me as fairly typical Internet Lawyer Syndrome, usually characterised by repeated reference to “copyright” and “intellectual property” without any understanding of the legal and for that matter ontological issues surrounding them, as well as repeated references to various authorities who have been informed and will be acting *any second now*, without any evidence of this being the case whatsoever. As a Livejournal veteran I have seen this an awful lot; that article really takes me back.
Kerian Bunin
Nov 24th, 2006
Hey! I took that picture that was used in this article :V
Kerian Bunin
Nov 24th, 2006
HEY WAIT JUST A SECOND!
By using my picture you are violating my intellectual property, you bastards! I hate you.
Wait, thats a lie, I love you guys.
Petey
Nov 24th, 2006
Kerian we should totally make out.
BabyTiger: I didn’t think you were quite so fine with this, considering BabyWolfie said you came slinking to him with your tail atwixt your legs.
BabyTiger
Nov 24th, 2006
Honestly, I think its an honor to make the front page on Something Awful, considering everything thats on the web in todays society, and all the other locations in Second Life my little neighbourhood made the page. I was never upset or dis-hearted about the article. It helped the promotion of the land, boosted the sales of the store, and helped me make my tier for the month. I was informing everyone that I made the page in a good cheerful mannor, sending traffic to the site itself. I was liking how the creative team was able to use the “cuddle rugs” that were placed out, as well as the basic tables and there own creative instincts to produce a hilarious story about space exploration. I do apologize if he mis-understood my message to him telling him about the article, and I will talk to him about this. I never experienced griefers, or attacks on the land, so no harm was done.
Thanks for the time
BT
urizenus
Nov 24th, 2006
Alright, that is enough nice-talk. If this ends up in a baby furry/SA Goon group hug I’m gonna start IP banning!
tp
Nov 25th, 2006
Sick diaper shitting furtards pretending to be children.
Thats a good business plan there. How can I cater to an audience of furry people who get some kind of sexual gratification from pretending to be children. Or even worse pretending to be children that shit and piss themselves wanting to share the experience on sex balls with other shitting pissing baby animals. It’s a pedophilia fetish shrouded by animal skins with a sick and twisted fecal phelia urination fetish thrown in just to sicken it up a bit.
No sane person can justify the fuckin weirdness of these furtards and it’s funny to see them squirm when somethingawful calls them out on the grotesque nature of there ageplay douchebaggery.
I can only imagien these sicko’s loose on the teen grid with there diapers and furry dipshiterry.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 25th, 2006
Oh, I get it, this article was a rent party.
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