The Problems of Gor – Part 2
by Pixeleen Mistral on 29/11/06 at 1:43 am
Beyond Roleplay – A Cult?
[editors note: this is the second half of an abridged version of Artemis Fate's notecard on Goreans. Those interrested in more related readings should contact Artemis for a copy of the 'Problems of Gor' notecard.]
by Artemis Fate
In one form or another, all seven conditioning tactics outlined by Dr. Singer can be found in Gorean activities. To better see this point, consider the hypothetical situation of a new slave in SL:
The first tactic is sometimes unnecessary since the slave might already have knowledge or be involved with Dominant/submissive culture. They’re already ‘Softened-up’ and ready for more. However, our slave is new and curious. She is first told that she is missing out on something in her life. In order to solve this, she must study these notecards chock full of Gorean slave philosophy in order to join them.
After this, the second tactic comes into play. Every time she acts the way the city or her Master wishes, she is rewarded not just by her master but the entire community. As she does this, she is told not to accept IMs from anyone but those her Master approves of. This means previous friends she had before Gor must be ignored. Thus, she has now cut herself off from others and has created her new family in the Gor sims. As a sign of devotion to her Master, our slave has in her profile that her Master will speak for her, and must monitor calling cards of friends or Incoming IMs, all must recieve permission from the owner. Some owners even refuse their slave girls the ability to hold money or property that isn’t directly given to them, demanding the slave give up everything she has to him.
Outsiders of Gor sims are not allowed in frequently. The Gor sims keep a stranglehold on the kind of information from the outside that reaches the sims. Strangers who express opposing viewpoints will be banned. If our slave questions or agrees with said viewpoints she may be punished or threatened with her own banishment. This is the third tactic.
The fourth tactic is a bit more subtle. The novels of Gor frequently state that everyone on Earth are all wrong when it comes to relationships. Supposedly, both men and women are unhappy because of this failure. The solution is the Gorean way, of course! This effect is increased by placing our slave in “another world” where everything works different.
Much more obvious is the fifth tactic. Slaves are told often that they’re stupid and powerless, and our slave is no exception. In fact, she’s found a Master who insists she speaks in the third person (almost mandatory for slaves in all gorean sims, rarely will a gorean slave not talk in 3rd person). This is not an uncommon practice in the D/s community and has found its way into Gorean life. Not being able to directly refer to herself reduces her to a mere object in her own mind, making our slave more ready to be used by others.
Alas, what if our slave still questions the philosophy and Masters of Gor? What if she fails to please her Master? At first offenses she’ll just be humiliated publicly in numerous ways and stripped of her privileges. In this case, our slave has been left in a cage with a floating title saying what she did wrong. She could be left there for hours and expected to stay there unless she wishes for more punishments. Of course, she stays there, not wanting to displease her Master or the community further to which she seeks approval from. Doing that might mean expulsion from Gor, probably by execution. And according to the philosophy which our slave is trying to follow, she’ll never be happy without the Gorean way.
That is tactic six and seven, respectively.
Thus our slave’s training can keep her chained to the sim and the community without physically chaining her to anything at all. After all, where are you going to go if you get banished from Gor and shunned all your old friends? What if everything you have in SL and everything you believe now, are in those sims?
This above example is not totally uncommon and sadly, it’s not strictly kept in a ‘fantasy world’. The next section will cover that in more heavily.
Beyond Roleplay
Something that must be stressed is that not all Gorean roleplay is actually fantasy. This is how some actually think and act in real life as well as online. These Goreans call themselves ‘lifestylers’ or ‘true goreans’.
In terms of danger, these are the ones to watch out for. These are the ones who whole heartedly believe in the philosophy put forth from the books. One of the few things that stop lifestylers from committing all Gorean practices is the law. However, the law doesn’t always restrain these kinds of urges.
In 2000, a man was found to have killed a string of women connected to the Gorean lifestyle. Using the name ‘Slavemaster’, he would obtain ‘slaves’ from several online Gorean communities. From there, he would attempt to organize a real life meeting with these women. During these meetings, some unfortunate women had refused his advances. This resulted in their murder. Their bodies were then placed in 55 gallon drums and dumped in a nearby pond. (2)
This is something the Gorean books have spelled out clearly — if a slave displeases you, you may kill her. While the above may be considered by many to be an extreme case, to a true Gorean lifestyler it is not a crime. The dangers are not just limited to that of women, but children as well.
Many parents would not want their children to see what they do in the bedroom. However, this doesn’t always apply to Goreans. Their ‘lifestyle’ isn’t considered to be a bedroom game. The following quotes have been taken from a popular Gorean lifestyler site named Goreanwhispers.com. On September 22, 2003 a discussion was held on the site about Gorean lifestyle in terms of children.
A few members were commented to say:
“(swan{Ursa}) swan has tried to teach the children that males in the household are to be pleased by females .. they tend to take that as gospel now.”
“(swan{Ursa}) We have one boy 10, two girls aged 12 and 14 soon to be 15. Then there are swan’s two sons in Australia – 21 and 24 – both who know of our lifestyle, even to the degree that swan is slave to Master”
“(antigone`) a girl hasn’t any children , but she imagines an easy way to “introduce” them to the concept of Gor is to give them the books to read…many have read the books when they were 15 or so… “
“(Ursa) It all boils down to doing the things that every parent should do: raise your children to be the best people they can be. If I believe that the Gorean lifestyle is a good one, why would I not teach my children in its ways?”
“Ursa nods to Aahzmandius…. I told him that if the kid hit him he was to do his best to flatten the kids nose. A suspension will be over in a day or two. The respect from defending himself will last a lot longer.”
“(Ursa) Yes, she does dress appropriately when the children are here. Though, of course, the collar never leaves her pretty neck. And she wears ankle bells.”
“(Ursa) I don’t think I restrict myself to eye gestures as commands. It’s my nature to sometimes ask and sometimes tell swan to do things for me. That doesn’t change because the children are in the house. 
swan has been known to sit at my feet, even with children in the house.”
Is it a Cult?
“But then there are things like cults – there, mind control happens when a cult wins over another person’s consciousness through hypnotic-like inducements including ‘love bombs’, a form of praise, overseeing an inductee’s every action, and eventually using shame and the threat of being expelled by the cult as a means of controlling them.”
– Professor E. Mark Stern of Iona Collage in New York
Love bombs, shame, and threat of being expelled. All things Gorean sims use on slave girls. If a slave girl obeys, she is rewarded. If she disobeys, she’s shamed and punished. If she speaks her mind or questions the philosophy, then she’s threatened with expulsion from the sims. But is Gor a cult?
This is a complex question that is best answered by ‘Yes and no’. A major thing that every cult generally has to start is a charismatic leader. One who personally founds a real life organization and most likely writes a series of manuals or books that describe the cult’s philosophy.
A Gorean will state that the Goreans have no charismatic leader. This is both true and untrue, as John Norman could be considered this. He’s not expressed much interest in personally founding a real life version of his Gor philosophy. However, it’s impossible to deny that people have formed a ‘lifestyle’ around his prolific writings, none the less.
Simply because John Norman isn’t working with these people directly does not mean that it is directionless. It does have a series of community leaders fostering their own smaller groups based off the Gor books. If any one of them were able to be charismatic, motivated, and influential enough they could concievably spark the trigger to the full blown Gorean cult.
Some Goreans would like to label Gor a ‘lifestyle’ when confronted with these sorts of questions. Can this be considered a lifestyle? A lifestyle, in definition is based on a multiple series of writing from multiple authors, dictating some sort of way of living. Thus something like D/s may be considered a lifestyle because it’s a concept based in no particular world and no particular one creator. Gor however, is based entirely on one series of books, by one author, as D/s it could be considered an extreme version of such, however, once you include gorean culture, gorean philosophy, and gorean writings as tomes of knowledge, you now have crossed the line past lifestyle and more into cult. You have a seemingly harmless series of books, but seem to have the sole purpose of dressing up a cult-like philosophy as fantasy. Because of this, despite the Sci-Fi/Fantasy label, the books are much closer to philosophical guides to life and love. They encourage the reader to take on the Gorean perspective — getting them into the cult, so to speak?
But with no formalized process past that step, they just splinter off into smaller groups with individual leaders and different levels of seriousness. Another way of looking at it, is perhaps it’s simply a cult without a leader. It could be likened to a pot with all the ingredients mixed and ready, waiting to be cooked. Or perhaps more appropriately: a bomb waiting to be detonated.
What can I do?
So by now you’re either one of four things: worried, enraged, incredulous, or apathetic. Taking in account the first one, say you read this because your friend recently became a Gorean slave and is beginning to show the signs of early conditioning, you may ask, “What can I do?”. As much as you might like to rush in like a valiant knight in stories and fight off the tormentors, it doesn’t quite work that way, in fact, any rash and violent actions towards your enslaved friend’s captors may cause her to dip deeper into Gorean hands. In this battle your weapon will be knowledge and you’ll have to wield it well.
The first and most important thing is, don’t lose contact! Often when a person who dislikes Gor finds out their friends are getting into it, they may shun them. This is a very bad idea. In the conditioning process, Goreans want their new slave to be cut off from her old friends so she becomes dependent on the Goreans for social contact. If you remain in touch, it reminds them that they still have someone outside of Gor to go to should they decide to leave. You’ll be her anchor for the non-Gorean world.
Gently remind her of your opinions on the subject. If you can, give her any information about it that’s not from a Gorean source you can. Again, you have to be gentle with this, if you are too harsh she may take it as a form of rejection and slip into Gor for approval.
Remember overall that in the end, this is the choice of the person getting involved. If you’re lucky they may decide based on what they’ve seen that it’s not for them. However, it’s not uncommon for a person to exit Gor only after a large tragedy. Unfortunately this is usually the only time a Gorean slave leaves Gor for reasons other than making up her mind.
Remember though, that Gor — like cults and drugs — is subject to relapses. While your friend may have exited Gor for now, that does not mean they’re done with it. Often times an ex-Gorean through tragedy will return to Gor soon afterwards. Thus, the important thing to do in this situation is an increased version of the aforementioned tactics: Remind her she has friends outside of Gor and comfort her, while gently reminding her of the bad things of Gor and thus why it’s not worth going back too.
The main thing Goreans run on is the concept of it being harmless roleplay and therein the ignorance of people as to what’s really happening in Gor. These conditioning effects can sometimes even be unintentionally produced. It’s a side effect of closely following John Norman’s already structurally manipulative persuasiveness and the general concept of slavery.
In the spirit of this, the best thing that can be done (for those who don’t have a friend involved) is to distribute the knowledge. Whether by this notecard, other notecards, conversation, debate, or any other form of communication, it should be done. It may be very tempting to lash out in griefer ways, but honestly is not recommended as it tends to just give Goreans examples of how non-Goreans are immature and that their way is the only proper way.
In the end, the only thing that can get a person out of Gor is themselves.
[Artemis Fate whishes to thank Belaya Statosky for editing and proof reading as well as ideas and support.]
Prokofy Neva
Nov 29th, 2006
You’ve just handed the Gor people a big victory with your claim that this is a “choice”. Yet you also made very persuasive arguments that they are masters of conditioning and using all the classic conditioning techniques of cults and totalitarian societies (it doesn’t have to be a cult per se; it can merely be an oppressive society). People conditioned in such a way can’t be said to be making informed or free choices.
The desire for structure and acceptance is huge in some people and when they come to SL, as to any MMORPG, they look for it and find it wherever it is. The freedom the Lindens create of just telling you to make your own way is too much for many people.
Not only should you remain in touch with those friends sucked by Gor (which includes males who imagine they’ve just found a way to get some steady ass they wouldn’t ordinarly get), you shouldn’t kow-tow to their notion that it is a choice. I think it’s very important to keep countering that propaganda.
I ran into somebody who was a reporter for Metaverse Messenger who came after me with all this You/you stuff and Master and Sir. And I said, please knock off that crap, I’m not in your RP, don’t talk to me that you. You claim it’s voluntary — well, I don’t want to be involuntarily called Master and Sir.
And to my surprise, this person told me they weren’t in Gor, but they had a friend in Gor and therefore they used this form of address to accommodate them and be polite to them. Huh? why? If it is supposed to be free, it can’t drag everyone else into it.
And that includes making people take off collars because they lag sims — if everyone is taking off attachments to see an event, making an exception for this roleplay is just plain idiotic and it shows how involuntary the cult expects you to be, by forcing you to accommodate.
Artemis Fate
Nov 29th, 2006
I can see what you’re getting at Prokofy, I just didn’t think I had enough research to conclusively say a mass amount of people were purposefully stripping others of their choice. As it seems to me so far, this is a machine that’s running on it’s own will, and most goreans that use it don’t realize they’re doing as such.
It does annoy me too when slaves come out of gor to non-gorean places, but don’t stop kneeling, saying “this girl”, calling people Master/Mistress, and doing all that other D/s kind of stuff.
But I can understand WHY they’re doing it, since their fetish revolves around being treated a certain way by all people, not just some.
Ultimately, I think that I can state that these people are manipulated with conditioning techniques, but I don’t think I have enough evidence to say that choice was completely stripped away. If you can find any research or sources for that, i’d likely revise.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 29th, 2006
It’s bad enough that they are manipulated, and that they manipulate *us* by NOT respecting AT ALL our desire obviously NOT to be coerced into their RP by having to endure all that “this girl” and “Your/your” crap. That’s the biggest flaw in their fake argument that says it’s all voluntary. It isn’t. And first and foremost, by all of us who have to endure it, and are even pressued into accommodating it. That *is* cult activity.
Cults aren’t always as extreme as Jim Jones and his punch. Some cults have very long runs and get very deeply embedded precisely because they are lighter in their clutches and more subtle.
I have many instances I’ve seen where the concept of “you can just log off” doesn’t wash. I see people enduring the unendurable, and asking their masters if it is ok to log-off.
anon
Nov 29th, 2006
thanks for writing this. i was in Gor on SL for 6 months, as a slave, and i always had conflicting feelings about it, and seeing it phrased the way you have been here is really eye opening.
in my experience, most of the “masters” i met in Gorean sims were not smart enough to do the conditioning you speak of. BUT, many of the “free women” and other slaves were very manipulative on this level. In my brief experience I found that many Gorean sims are run by women – women admins, women builders, and very aggressively Gorean slaves that are “first girls” or have some other slave title and do most of the admin and building work for their Masters. very misleading. I never met a true strong male in Gor in the 6 months I spent roleplaying a slave. If these strong Masters exist, I’d like to know where.
Vivienne Daguerre
Nov 30th, 2006
Artemis, I know we have had our disagreements in the past. However, I found your article to be well written and thought out, no doubt written as a paper for a class on conditioning.
I think there is danger in anything taken too far. There is potentially some danger with the philosophy of Gor taken too far in extending it to one’s real life. The example of a man feeling he could kill slaves, as in the books, is a good one, but likely a rare one. To me the real danger is in Masters who take it so far as to beat their slaves in real life, or slaves who give away their power to someone else in real life. The slave may want to dump responsibility on someone else; how convenient to have a Master now to blame for all that is wrong in life. Some think, “He is a weak Master, so I can behave badly and self-destructively and it is his job to stop me, and if he does not, anything bad that happens to me is his fault and responsibility, not mine.” There can be a danger of psychological harm with an abusive Master, or in the slave trying to objectify herself and telling herself that her feelings do not matter, etc.
I have always told people, “Keep one foot grounded in reality.” My real life and my Second Life are completely separate. I am not Gorean in my real life, believe in equal rights for women, and was a trail blazer in the military in the late seventies and early eighties. (I was the second female in my trade across Canada, and the first at both of my postings.)
When I am in Second Life, I am Gorean. I know the rules, play by them and expect others to do so as well. The reason I am in Gor is that I love the rich culture that it provides and the basis for building a community. I have dear friends in Gor.
I am well regarded as a knowledgeable Free Woman. If one keeps a foot in reality, one can safely indulge some fantasies or meet some submissive or Dominant needs that are not met in real life.
I know others will disagree with me, both Gorean and non-Gorean. This is just my point of view. Be Gorean, but common sense still applies.
Vivienne Daguerre
urizenus
Nov 30th, 2006
Vivienne! I was hoping your would join this discussion.
Artemis Fate
Nov 30th, 2006
I fully agree with you Vivienne, and i’m surprised I do, since I had sorta thought that you were a voice for lifestyle goreans in Second Life, being a scribe in Glorious Ar, and didn’t you even bring Luther over once?
Anyways, that is, essentially what i’m talking about yes, Gor going too far, and these applications of Gor in real life being innapropriate to the times and the culture. As long as one can place a distinct rift between reality and Gor, it can usually be done safely and probably even have fun, atleast I can’t think of any examples off the top of my head outside of minor drama where a person who seperated Gor and RL has had any kinds of serious problems.
Vivienne Daguerre
Nov 30th, 2006
Chuckles at Prokofy.. you just never change my dear. It must be very difficult for you having others continually force their ways on you by speaking as they prefer to or are accustomed to according to the culture they choose to be part of. It is not directed at you. You have no right to dictate how they should be treated in your presence, and if you think you have that right, then you should be addressed as Mistress. How upset you must be in the real world when people try to force you to be French, or Spanish, or italian, or whatever, by speaking those languages in your presence!!!
Bottom line.. you do not have the right to dictate to others how they should or should not behave in your presence. You are not God and no-one elected you to be our moral compass.
Your old friend, Lady Julianna.
Mikal Snakeankle
Nov 30th, 2006
GOR as a cult? *laughs* I think not. First of all, I wasn’t “dragged” into Gor. I wasn’t told, read this and believe this or be gone. My first experience with GOR was by an asshole that truly is clueless and would fall into your category. HOWEVER, he is not the typical Gorean. He’s an abuser both online and off and he is banned from a majority of Gorean sims due to his past.
Am I a lifestyler? Yes I am. Do I abuse in real life? No I do not. My wife and I practice safe, sane and concentual. Why? because we enjoy what we do. As far as Gorean philosophies thy are actually philosophies that already existed and still exist in many societies to this very day. They were simply put into a series of books that people had and have access to read. They make the philosophies that many already live by more vivid by words, descriptions.
Question for you. So many romance novels depict the woman being seduced by the man. Novels depicting the women submitting. I won’t even BEGIN to wager the numbers of romance books that have this in the story line. Nor will I begin to wager the numbers of romance books purchased each year. I do however work at a book store, and I can tell you this much. We go through box after box after box, on a daily basis with more and more romance novels such as this. They sell. Now, if there were women that didn’t feel this urge, this need, this desire to be at the feet of certain men, then these books and the Gorean series wouldn’t have been written in the first place. If this need didn’t exist, then this lifestyle and the D/s lifestyle also wouldn’t exist.
As far as ALL lifestylers being dangerous? This is crap. Do you know me? No. Do you know my wife or my kids? No. You take your stuff from only a few that roleplay Gor and roleplay to the extreme, leaving out those of us with common sense and label us all the same way. I run 2 Gorean sims at the moment. The 2nd about to open shortly. In game, I have a Free Companion, the equivalent of a wife. Have been with her over 3 years now, going on 4. I own 3 slaves online. Do I own slaves offline? My wife is my submissive. Do my kids see us in role? LOL Only as far as husband and wife. Yes, my wife is submissive to me. Guess what? If you are Christian, it’s in the bible. Read it. My wife and I are lifestylers, but we will not influence my kids towards Gor nor towards any religious faction as well. They are taught both Christianity (which by the way USED to be called a cult) and towards my native beliefs, my heritage and theirs. LOL Funny how my ancestors beliefs were considered savage.
Do I interfere with my online slaves real life? No. Do I wish to? No. That is their life. Do I tell them to drop all contact with outside friends? No, to the contrary. I encourage them to keep up with friends. Do I force my slaves to speak in 3rd person? No. I actually can’t stand the 3rd speech and it’s NOT a requirement on my sims. Do my slaves kneel in non-Gorean or D/s sims? Not unless they are with me. Do they call non-Goreans Master or Mistress? Only if said persons arrive in our land. Do I tell them who they may accept friends cards from? No. Do I have them put into their profile to not IM them without my permission? No. Do I punish them? Yes, when they need it. But what you don’t comprehend is this. They come to Gor, fully knowing what is to be expected. If this is what they decide down the road isn’t for them. Leave. I won’t stop you. You also aren’t banned from my land for leaving. You are banned if you leave and then harass, badger, cause trouble through actions, words or deeds. Not uncommon in other lands either. Heck, I’d do that no matter where I was or what sim I happened to own whether it be a furry sim, vampire sim, or Gorean sim. If someone caused troubles via words or actions. Yes I will ban. Period.
If you wish to come, speak with me and honestly discuss Gor, ask questions, etc, please feel free to send me a notecard or IM. If you wish to speak with me about Native American culture, send me a notecard or IM. I am always willing to speak to others. Although most of my friends are in Gor, I have friends that are also in the D/s lifestyle and friends that are in neither. They may not understand my desire to be Gorean, but they support me as true friends do. I also support my friends in what they wish to be and do, whether or not they are Gorean, D/s’ers or not. I ask this of you all, don’t lump us all together based on one persons experience or on the experience in heavy roleplay sims. Take the time, get to know those of us that truly are decent hard working people that happen to be Gorean.
Mikal Snakeankle
Urizenus
Nov 30th, 2006
wow, having Prok (Dyerbrook), Mikal, and Vivienne (Julianna) gives me such a nostalgia hit from the old Alphavlle Herald days. Remember the discussion after my interview of Toy and Maria?
http://www.alphavilleherald.com/archives/000075.html
Are those two still around?
Draco Zhukovsky
Dec 1st, 2006
“However, our slave is new and curious. She is first told that she is missing out on something in her life.”
I’m not a resident in a Gorean sim, nor ever will I be, but here’s a few things to consider. Not by anyone who has the first clue of respect and politeness. They are offered information, but never have I, or anyone I know, ever told someone they were missing out.
“Second tactic…”
And guess what? Most people blow this off because it’s stupid and unenforceable. I know many girls living in Gorean Sims who still talk to Me, an outsider.
“Outsiders of Gor sims are not allowed in frequently.”
Guests are always allowed, provided they wear a visitors tag, usually offered upon entering the sim. Esalinus Market is a good example of this.
“In 2000, a man was found to have killed a string of women connected to the Gorean lifestyle. Using the name ‘Slavemaster’, he would obtain ‘slaves’ from several online Gorean communities. From there, he would attempt to organize a real life meeting with these women. During these meetings, some unfortunate women had refused his advances. This resulted in their murder. Their bodies were then placed in 55 gallon drums and dumped in a nearby pond.”
Well let’s see… I’ll google religious Christians who have murdered people… Hmm, I came up with over 200,000 hits, while you get one. Odd, don’t you think?
Now to you Prokky… it is, has, and always will be… a matter of… wait for it… CHOICE. Just like any practice anywhere. At any time, the slave has the right and the ability to choose when and if to start, and when to stop, should she start. Something you always seem to repeatedly ignore.
“It’s bad enough that they are manipulated, and that they manipulate *us* by NOT respecting AT ALL our desire obviously NOT to be coerced into their RP by having to endure all that “this girl” and “Your/your” crap.”
But yet it’s ok to enforce YOUR rules on them and forcing them to accept YOUR RP rules by saying they can’t speak as they wish to? *points to the word “hypocrisy” in Webster’s*
Random Writer
Dec 1st, 2006
I’m out of the Gor thing to be honest. It doesn’t appeal to me.
However, Mikal, your comparison to romance novels is rather absurd.
Seduction and sex in almost ALL of those romance novels sold each year, that you speak of, are different from master and slave. Yes, I’m a reader of them. Why?
Because they feature romance of flowers, candies, kisses and cookies (to put it lightly). And as I reader I can honestly say that those novels have a feministic undertone where the woman essentially plays the mind game to get the man to appease her.
And almost 1/2 of the novels sold in the last few years has a dominant female figure sweeping the man off his feet.
Sure, there are master/slave romance novels, but you are speaking of the majority of sales and what you say isn’t true.
You want the typical romance novel?
Enter lonely woman, enter handsome man. Man makes dinner, woman oogles. Man says sweet things and asked her opinions. Woman melts. Man asks her what she wants in bed. Woman obliges. Man is good in bed, sweet, sensual and sexual. Woman gets off. They run away into the sunset happy. The End.
Trudy
Dec 1st, 2006
Ah yes, the old, “I’m not saying” it’s a cult, “I’m asking”. :grins:
Artemis, the tenor of your piece belies that claim to a great degree, and I don’t think it’s necessary to point that out, but I’ll do it for posterity.
And, yes! The SlaveMaster John Edward Robinson!
Nevermind that his first victim was a prospective new employee of his in real life.
Nevermind that for over two decades, he preyed on his employers and women without the internet.
This guy was a very talented scam artist who somehow managed to con people into trusting him even though his history was horrific. He posed as a prospective employer, a charity organization contact point, and a pimp to get access to those women he abducted in the ’80s. I’ve seen no mention of Gor in those cases. He used Gor as just another avenue to get at women, and only late in his criminal career.
This guy is the example I many times hear anti-Goreans trot out, yet it’s simply got nothing to do with Gor and everything to do with a sick-minded, evil, lifetime criminal. One who had a very, very long history of fraud, embezzlement, felony theft, violence toward women, and who always just happened to be around women who disappeared. I realise though, that it makes for a great ghost story when one is trying to paint Gor as a danger zone, especially when the important backstory context is left out.
He didn’t even start trying to attract people on the net until 1994. If the net had never come to be, he would have found other ways to find victims. For goodness sake, one of his victims was a library employee who worked at one of the prisons he did a stint at. The guy was sly as a fox, and he most certainly didn’t need Gor to get what he wanted.
There wasn’t a Gorean connected incident until the late ’90s. He was scum a long time before he ever got involved in Gor, and it’s baffling to me that this so often gets dragged out as the example of the “RL dangers of Gor”. Wait, maybe I’m not so baffled…
Now, as far “Is it a cult?” I would say no.
The majority of Gor-play goes on online, and the majority of slaves never, ever meet their owners in RL. Cults rely on that RL connection heavily. They need that so they can dig into your finances, get you away from family and friends, and so forth. They need you to physically be there. The techniques they rely on – programming techniques – require you to be physically there. In over ten years of participating in online communities, and nearly as many years of awareness of Gorean culture, I have never seen anyone program someone else through 3d graphics and text chat. Maybe someday, when avatars are indistinguishable from real people, even then, I dunno, cult type brainwashing relies heavily on “presence”. It also relies on a very charismatic central figure making grandiose promises of a better life (or afterlife). IMO, Norman (and Gor itself for that matter – where is the carrot?) simply cannot be shoehorned into that role in any fashion.
The Gorean “lifestyle” is simply way too transient and fractious to be considered a cult. It’s transient, which any “good” cult cannot be. People come and go all the time. Also, you go from one sim to the next and the rules diverge markedly. One is force collar on sight, the next might be no force collar at all, free women have very few restrictions, and the slaves are treated very well. I even know of one Gor group that allows furries! Heehe.
For these reasons and others, Gorean culture must therefore be examined on a group by group basis. There are certainly bound to be some bad individuals and groups, but that’s hardly reflective of the community on the whole, as it is with any type of extended community.
When was the last time you heard about a Gorean RL cult being exposed? Where are the RL city kennels? How long do you think they would be able to keep it a secret? I mean, Tuchuk wagons are kind of hard to hide. So are bows and cages. And I don’t think Mrs. Kravitz is gonna stay quiet about collared women wandering around half nekkid in her neighborhood.
I live in an area with all sorts of “fringe” groups in RL and I have yet to see a woman in silks with a guy leading her about on a collar, have you? It’s my guess that 90% or more of the comparatively miniscule amount of RL Gorean stuff goes on behind closed doors, and therefore, it’s my belief that it’s rather far from “true Gorean”, because “true Gorean” is undertaken in a setting in which exposure to the world around one’s self is paramount. Although, I keep burning my retinas while trying to catch a glimpse of the Gorean homeworld. Jeez, that really sucks.
Are some of these women and men who become slaves vulnerable people who get caught up too much in it? Yes. And I’d wager if Gor didn’t exist, they would find other activities to get too caught up in. You can only protect people from themselves so much. Being that online, they can simply teleport away, or log out, I think that the blame lays squarely on the shoulders of the persons subjecting themselves to the situation (if they don’t like it and continue to participate). Much the same as any other (non-programmed) consentual act, RL or online. Speaking of which, and I won’t get too far into RL religion here, but… suffice it to say that I think that Singer’s examples could be much more easily and aptly applied to many “acceptible” and “legitimate” RL religions. Honour thy husband, Burqas, you know the drill…
Thinking about it, online Gor-play sounds safer to me than a tabletop RP at some geek’s house in RL, because someone might spill their can of Dew on you or burn you with a Swisher Sweet. Or maybe they’ll get all crazy one night on pot, Tahitian Treat and Cheetohs, drag you down into the city sewers (Tomb of Horrors ZOMG!) and sacrifice you to the lich king! I kid, I kid!
For the record, I am not Gorean, though I did read one book at the behest of a relative who thought that the Gor books were “all that”. I was not impressed, and in fact, I can’t remember the last novel I read that was so juvenile and poorly written.
My other knowledge of Gor comes from visiting many of the Gorean areas and sims and talking to people there. One (well known) sim even allowed me access to the kennel so that I might question (extensively & unchaperoned!) a couple of slaves in training about their experiences. Goreans tend to be very polite and accomodating if you politely express interest in researching.
I also have several friends (Free Men and Women slaveholders, kajiras and kajirus, a Tuchuk and a kennel master) who are involved or have been involved. I did a several week stint on an alt as a kajira in training (including lots of study time at the scribery), just to dip my foot into the sea. Eh, semi-interesting stuff, but not for me. I consider myself very analytical and perceptive, and I personally never saw anything to get alarmed about, after several months of both direct and indirect exposure. IMO, harmless albeit cumbersome RP.
That said, I am not very impressed when Gor spills over into non-Gorean areas. I think that if they want to be respected, they need to respect our culture just as they wish us to respect theirs when we visit a Gorean sim. A few months back, I was shopping for shoes on the mainland, nowhere near any Gorean area, and – get this – a female Gorean was punishing (verbal humiliation) her half naked slave girl severely, right there in the shoe store. Other examples of overspill come to mind (don’t get me started on the prim attatchment exceptions extended Goreans at a well known RL/SL crossover event), but this comment has certainly gotten long enough. My advice to Goreans is, don’t be your own worst enemies, exercise some restraint when your not on your own lands.
Artemis Fate
Dec 1st, 2006
Some very good points there Trudy, you’re right on the “slavemaster” thing, I was hoping really not to show him as an example of what WILL go wrong, but what CAN go wrong, since after all he was just following the gorean book in “if your slave displeases you, kill her”. I recognize this is done in religions as well and it’s not like I condone that either (and also, much of the time I see a lot of organized religions as just a large and widely accepted cult).
On to the cult part, as i’ve said before, I agree I don’t think it is a cult. However, I do believe that conditioning techniques, which largely are psychological, can be done without physical need. That being said, I would like to reintroduce my statement that I don’t believe ALL goreans use said techniques, and even less that KNOW they’re using techniques, much less one who is knowingly using all of them and what they mean. Likely in an effort to copy others, a gorean will probably impose 4-5 techniques without realizing it, a community however would likely impose them all over a period of time.
“When was the last time you heard about a Gorean RL cult being exposed?”
That would be the splinter-gor cult the Kaotians in the UK, if you missed that article it’s here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4996410.stm
The thing that made me think there is how many others like that are around that haven’t had masters willing to walk their slaves on a leash through town for attention, the guy himself claims knowledge of quite a few.
“The Gorean “lifestyle” is simply way too transient and fractious to be considered a cult.”
Which is really what i’ve been saying, there’s no cohesive leader to bring it all together, so Gor “cults” exists in small pocket communities that can often run on different rules and have different leaders.
“Being that online, they can simply teleport away, or log out”
This is really the whole thing i’m addressing though, they CAN do this, but WILL they do this? It sort of applies to battered women syndrome, a woman CAN walk out from her husband that beats her, but she doesn’t. Besides threat of murder, this sort of thing applies to real life cults too, people COULD walk out of Heaven’s gate, but didn’t. So what makes the gorean example different? That’s the problem I have with consensuality and gor, really real cults thrive on the concept of consensuality, it’s why they’re dangerous because unless they slip up and kill someone or something else illegal, nothing they do is strictly against the law, and the police can only act when it’s too late and they have to go into a room filled with poisoned bodies like Heaven’s Gate. Certainly i’m not saying the same will happen to goreans, I doubt they’re going to spike the koolaid and order their slaves to drink, i’m just saying that I believe they sometimes use the same tactics, and they use them often unknowingly which means they don’t control them and don’t know what they’re doing. This leads to Sparrowhawk’s post where she talks about the collar and leaving gor as a “kind of death” where the person leaving suffers extreme emotional distress. Certainly, I don’t think i’ve heard of anyone leaving D&D suffering extreme emotional distress.
Quimby Rothschild
Dec 1st, 2006
Artemis, I’d just like to point out that not all leashes, chains and collars are visible. Sometimes, it’s possible to be imprisoned in a cell without bars.
Artemis Fate
Dec 2nd, 2006
Indeed Quimby, which is really the point of the whole thing. Infact, i’d say the STRONGEST leashes and cages are the ones that are without bars, so to speak.
bob nlrididde
Dec 13th, 2006
hi I’m Bob I did not reed it al so wat dod It say I’m stupid I repeatedd 6 gerad 3 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:O
Sorron of Thassa
Dec 18th, 2006
Advice to Gorean Slaves
(The intent of this writing is to give a general over view of slavery on Gor . It is also an introduction to behaviors expected of a slave. It is not intended to be a completed training document.)
What it means to be a Gorean Slave
I suppose, only a slave would think such things, “that slaves are stupid!” There are also very learned slaves, some who were scribes, physicians, Ubar’s daughters, etc…They all knew they were true slaves; their secret desires were to be subservient, and possessed entirely, by men!
Now, if being a Gorean slave is what a girl seeks…It is about “finding her True Master” the one owner that will awaken her “sexually, and emotionally.” That is the theme often brought up when slaves are relating their experiences in the Gor books.
What is true about a slave’s “True Master,” is that he is just as in love with her, as she with him. What they have in common is that she is a totally devoted slave, and he is a Master who is in love with that slave. He is so much in love that he will not allow her to be wasted, or badly used. That doesn’t mean he succumbs to her! But, that she will remain a slave!
Ownership and Training
One assumes that a girl new to Gor, enters a 3d Gor World as a Free Woman. From there she can remain Free, or “Beg a Collar.” In some worlds she may be captured, collared, and branded. All Free Women are at risk of this, unless they have a personal guard, or Free Companion, as a protector.
Not all 3d Gor worlds have the same policies on the transfer of a girl. But many support “voluntary collars”, that is there are no “forced collars” or “Captures”. A girl begs her collar, from a world owner if she wants to be a city slave. The City Slave serves the needs of the Free in her city, but remains under the direction of her city’s Administrator or Ubar. That World’s Owner is, in all respects, her Master. Or, she begs a collar from a Master she deems worthy, if she wants to be privately owned. A Privately Owned slave is required to serve only her Master, or others, that he may direct her to serve.
A Slave understands that she may be owned by many Masters who will use her. But she is always hopeful to find HER “True Master”. During ownership, she learns to be pleasing to men, which is much of her training. Oh there is, no doubt, training on the menial stuff: how to do a proper serve, how to dance, to be entertaining on chat, etc…
Her Owner decides what she will wear, how she will be trained, and even what she will be named. And, she will learn to do what pleases her Master, the ways that he likes these tasks performed. She will also learn to have manners while among the Free, and what a slave’s place and part is whilst there. . In the end, a girl needs to be pleasing, only to her Master. To the rest, she needs to be polite, and demonstrate knowledgeable slave behavior.
A slave should read some of the books out there to begin their training. Read any of the Gor series (how can one claim to be Gorean, if one has never read any of the books?), and “Hell With the Roses, Send Me Thorns”, and “Sensual Magic”, these will help a slave to understand Gor, and give her insight about BDsM situations. Then she will be able to tell, very quickly, if submission is the part for her. And, she will be able to decide if she has found a real Master, or just another happy “paddle/slapper…”
Slavers
Just because a master says,” I’m a Slaver” doesn’t mean he trains, or understands his trade…not all masters are “Masters”! Online, any a slaver can say just about any thing they like about themselves (“on line, no one knows you are a dog!” from a cartoon showing two dogs at a computer terminal.) So, one does need to exercise caution and judgment, there, upon entering! A girl needs to “probe gently” for data about how that slaver likes his Gor, to see if he is a reader of the Gor books, or a “self made chat Gorean”. There is a difference!
Also, I think it does not hurt to have more than one trainer. One can learn much that is absent from one, under another. A wise Master will send his girl for training, under other knowledgeable Masters
Chat Room Activities
On most worlds a slave girl is expected to beg to enter. When accompanied by her Master, she will heel to him. When not in the company of her Master, she had better have good cause to be there on that world, or do not enter it. She should follow the directions of the Free Person controlling that area, such as the First Sword, or the Administrator, or the Ubar, or World Owner, or any other available ranking Citizen of that world. In short, if you have not been invited, and even if you have, you had best get permission from both your Master, and that world you wish to visit, before doing so.
Upon entering a World, choose an Avatar appropriate to your level of training Use white silk for inexperienced, and not available for sexual services; yellow silk for some training and ability to do food and drink services; and red silk for fully trained and experienced, and available for sexual services. Beg to enter and serve the Free, and wait for permission, which will usually be granted. Some worlds have a “servery” or an area where a slave is required to go and wait until she is called upon for service by a Free Person, unless she is accompanied by her Master
When a girl is focused on doing her serve in a chat room, she may not see all the chat logged as it occurs. Some times, she will have to go back and read through. But, she needs to pay attention when a Master is speaking to her and respond as though she was involved in the conversation (as a slave, of course!).
Whispering is another area of mixed policies. In strict abeyance, a slave girl whispers only to her Master, and other slaves. She must have permission to whisper to another Master or Free Woman, from her Master, before doing so. Should a Free Person whisper to her, with out permission, she should report that in a whisper to her Master, immediately, including the whispered text, that he might quietly decide how it should be handled, or grant her permission. Should a girl whisper to a Free Person first, he will usually assume that she had permission to do so. But she must also ask that Person, for permission to whisper to them. She must obey all her Masters commands in chat, even if she is currently serving another. Her Master is senior to all other masters in all matters regarding her, and he makes the rules for her about whispering, and just about every thing else!
SofT
The Warrior lifts the slave girl’s chin, and looks deeply into her eyes before speaking, as a Master will sometimes do. He wipes away the tear from her cheek, which thoughts of her past brought forth. “Little slave, you need never regret the past. Life is in you today! And, you choose your Real Life tomorrows!” He then kisses her gently on her forehead, before going off to tend to his other duties…
Copy Rights reserved, 2006
by SofT
(Soaron of Thassa)
Advice to Gorean Slaves
(The intent of this writing is to give a general over view of slavery on Gor . It is also an introduction to behaviors expected of a slave. It is not intended to be a completed training document.)
What it means to be a Gorean Slave
I suppose, only a slave would think such things, “that slaves are stupid!” There are also very learned slaves, some who were scribes, physicians, Ubar’s daughters, etc…They all knew they were true slaves; their secret desires were to be subservient, and possessed entirely, by men!
Now, if being a Gorean slave is what a girl seeks…It is about “finding her True Master” the one owner that will awaken her “sexually, and emotionally.” That is the theme often brought up when slaves are relating their experiences in the Gor books.
What is true about a slave’s “True Master,” is that he is just as in love with her, as she with him. What they have in common is that she is a totally devoted slave, and he is a Master who is in love with that slave. He is so much in love that he will not allow her to be wasted, or badly used. That doesn’t mean he succumbs to her! But, that she will remain a slave!
Ownership and Training
One assumes that a girl new to Gor, enters a 3d Gor World as a Free Woman. From there she can remain Free, or “Beg a Collar.” In some worlds she may be captured, collared, and branded. All Free Women are at risk of this, unless they have a personal guard, or Free Companion, as a protector.
Not all 3d Gor worlds have the same policies on the transfer of a girl. But many support “voluntary collars”, that is there are no “forced collars” or “Captures”. A girl begs her collar, from a world owner if she wants to be a city slave. The City Slave serves the needs of the Free in her city, but remains under the direction of her city’s Administrator or Ubar. That World’s Owner is, in all respects, her Master. Or, she begs a collar from a Master she deems worthy, if she wants to be privately owned. A Privately Owned slave is required to serve only her Master, or others, that he may direct her to serve.
A Slave understands that she may be owned by many Masters who will use her. But she is always hopeful to find HER “True Master”. During ownership, she learns to be pleasing to men, which is much of her training. Oh there is, no doubt, training on the menial stuff: how to do a proper serve, how to dance, to be entertaining on chat, etc…
Her Owner decides what she will wear, how she will be trained, and even what she will be named. And, she will learn to do what pleases her Master, the ways that he likes these tasks performed. She will also learn to have manners while among the Free, and what a slave’s place and part is whilst there. . In the end, a girl needs to be pleasing, only to her Master. To the rest, she needs to be polite, and demonstrate knowledgeable slave behavior.
A slave should read some of the books out there to begin their training. Read any of the Gor series (how can one claim to be Gorean, if one has never read any of the books?), and “Hell With the Roses, Send Me Thorns”, and “Sensual Magic”, these will help a slave to understand Gor, and give her insight about BsDM situations. Then she will be able to tell, very quickly, if submission is the part for her. And, she will be able to decide if she has found a real Master, or just another happy “paddle/slapper…”
Slavers
Just because a master says,” I’m a Slaver” doesn’t mean he trains, or understands his trade…not all masters are “Masters”! Online, any a slaver can say just about any thing they like about themselves (“on line, no one knows you are a dog!” from a cartoon showing two dogs at a computer terminal.) So, one does need to exercise caution and judgment, there, upon entering! A girl needs to “probe gently” for data about how that slaver likes his Gor, to see if he is a reader of the Gor books, or a “self made chat Gorean”. There is a difference!
Also, I think it does not hurt to have more than one trainer. One can learn much that is absent from one, under another. A wise Master will send his girl for training, under other knowledgeable Masters
Chat Room Activities
On most worlds a slave girl is expected to beg to enter. When accompanied by her Master, she will heel to him. When not in the company of her Master, she had better have good cause to be there on that world, or do not enter it. She should follow the directions of the Free Person controlling that area, such as the First Sword, or the Administrator, or the Ubar, or World Owner, or any other available ranking Citizen of that world. In short, if you have not been invited, and even if you have, you had best get permission from both your Master, and that world you wish to visit, before doing so.
Upon entering a World, choose an Avatar appropriate to your level of training Use white silk for inexperienced, and not available for sexual services; yellow silk for some training and ability to do food and drink services; and red silk for fully trained and experienced, and available for sexual services. Beg to enter and serve the Free, and wait for permission, which will usually be granted. Some worlds have a “servery” or an area where a slave is required to go and wait until she is called upon for service by a Free Person, unless she is accompanied by her Master
When a girl is focused on doing her serve in a chat room, she may not see all the chat logged as it occurs. Some times, she will have to go back and read through. But, she needs to pay attention when a Master is speaking to her and respond as though she was involved in the conversation (as a slave, of course!).
Whispering is another area of mixed policies. In strict abeyance, a slave girl whispers only to her Master, and other slaves. She must have permission to whisper to another Master or Free Woman, from her Master, before doing so. Should a Free Person whisper to her, with out permission, she should report that in a whisper to her Master, immediately, including the whispered text, that he might quietly decide how it should be handled, or grant her permission. Should a girl whisper to a Free Person first, he will usually assume that she had permission to do so. But she must also ask that Person, for permission to whisper to them. She must obey all her Masters commands in chat, even if she is currently serving another. Her Master is senior to all other masters in all matters regarding her, and he makes the rules for her about whispering, and just about every thing else!
SofT
The Warrior lifts the slave girl’s chin, and looks deeply into her eyes before speaking, as a Master will sometimes do. He wipes away the tear from her cheek, which thoughts of her past brought forth. “Little slave, you need never regret the past. Life is in you today! And, you choose your Real Life tomorrows!” He then kisses her gently on her forehead, before going off to tend to his other duties…
Copy Rights reserved, 2006
by SofT
(Soaron of Thassa)
http://blog.myspace.com/goreancurrents
Dave
Dec 19th, 2006
The author of this article, obviously has an axe to grind, and obviously does not get what Gor is about.
Much of the negative posts here about Gor are child like in nature. Making statements of fact without any back up.
Are all people that role play true Goreans,,,no. However, Gor is about, nature, beauty, love, duty and Honor. If you think that is negative, then I simply would disagree with you.
Gorean is a culture, true Gor is not BSDM at all.
I also will point out, females out number males on Gor sims, by far. So you people out there who think this is some kind of bash woman world, or something, this is proof, that you are ignorant fools.
Be well.
Artemis Fate
Dec 19th, 2006
“The author of this article, obviously has an axe to grind, and obviously does not get what Gor is about.
Much of the negative posts here about Gor are child like in nature. Making statements of fact without any back up.”
Because clearly, a person could NEVER dislike gor, unless they had an “axe to grind” or didn’t understand what it’s “really about”. Certainly, we shouldn’t discuss the opinions stated, but just attack the author.
Dave
Dec 21st, 2006
“Because clearly, a person could NEVER dislike gor, unless they had an “axe to grind” or didn’t understand what it’s “really about”. Certainly, we shouldn’t discuss the opinions stated, but just attack the author”
This is pretty much correct the first part anyway.
First off if you don’t understand something, then your opinion on that thing becomes irrelevant.
Secondly, If someone dislikes gor or the gorean lifestyle, they are not going to rp it. They are not going to invest there time and emotion on it. This Author clearly has. Someone that dislikes gor, just not going to partake in Gor. They are not going to write long articles saying they dislike something, why would they? Why would you invest, hours of your time talking about something you did not care for? Also, it should be noted, there is nothing wrong with disliking something, The fact that you say “I am attacking the author” is your warped perceptive. I am merely stating what I see here. Someone who invested time and energy into something they liked and was clearly let down by the people and her experience so she wants to fire back and write a negative article.
Thirdly, Much of her information factual is either wrong, or misunderstood. As well as most of the negative feedback people write about Gor, just is not factual correct and clearly show a lack of understanding.
One must understand, that just cause a SIM calls itself “Gor” does not mean that sim is the same “GOR” as other sims nor does it mean that it’s the Same Gor, laid out by John Norman. My point being people take the basic concepts of Gor and twist them into how they want to do Gor. Others try to follow the books more closely. So, one may try one Gor sim and say, “mm this is not for me”, and then try another Gor role play and be very pleased. The author knows this, but still wants to paint, “Gor” with a broad brush, the same everywhere, cause it fits in her little attack. Gor in the books is as diverse as earth is, with many different cultures and view points.
My final point is this, everything that happens on a Gor sim is mutual and consensual. No one ties anyone to the key board and puts a gun to their head and tells them they must role play a gorean slave.
Artemis Fate
Dec 21st, 2006
“First off if you don’t understand something, then your opinion on that thing becomes irrelevant.”
The understanding can be seen in the points, not in an attack against the author based on nothing. Can you point what it is I don’t understand? I’ve heard goreans tell me “you don’t understand!” like a rebelious teenager, but they never point out in my rhetorical points what it is that was wrong.
“Someone that dislikes gor, just not going to partake in Gor. They are not going to write long articles saying they dislike something, why would they? Why would you invest, hours of your time talking about something you did not care for? Also, it should be noted, there is nothing wrong with disliking something, The fact that you say “I am attacking the author” is your warped perceptive. I am merely stating what I see here. Someone who invested time and energy into something they liked and was clearly let down by the people and her experience so she wants to fire back and write a negative article.”
I take it then, that you dislike me and this article, so why are you writing back? Perhaps you had some bad experience with me and now you have an axe to grind, clearly your points should be entirely ignored due to this. Why would anyone write anything about the American president’s disastorous policies, or why would anyone write about why Communism or Nazism doesn’t work, all because they have an axe to grind and therefore they should be ignored? Do you see the problem with this sort of thinking? You’re saying either you’re with gor and saying positive things or you can’t say anything negative about it.
This sort of rhetorical fallacy is known as ad hominem where you attack the purveyor of the ideas instead of the ideas themselves. So instead of arguing against any one of my points, you went for my throat saying that I was just someone who had an axe to grind against gor and therefore my points should be ignored. This is actually something most goreans have used in debate against me here, and i’d really like to see someone go after a rhetorical point or two.
“Thirdly, Much of her information factual is either wrong, or misunderstood. As well as most of the negative feedback people write about Gor, just is not factual correct and clearly show a lack of understanding.”
Could you please point out something in particular that is “factually wrong” especially since besides gor novel and other book quotes, and a few news stories, there’s nothing that could be so much “factually wrong” as it is coming to a bad rhetorical conclusion, in which is what you argue about here. Yet rarely do goreans seem interested, they just seem more interested in telling me how factually wrong I am, or how I have an axe to grind and therefore should be ignored.
So if you have anything “factually wrong” to justify the statement “Much of her information factual is either wrong, or misunderstood.” i’d be happy to hear it so I have something to ammend when I put in the next card, otherwise i’ll have to assume you were lying/exaggerating to bolster your position and attempt to make me look bad.
“The author knows this, but still wants to paint, “Gor” with a broad brush, the same everywhere, cause it fits in her little attack.”
Actually, I pretty much state in the notecard and on the comments of the forum here (repeatedly) that i’m targeting those who consider themselves lifestyle goreans specifically, that RP gor I consider to be really as harmless as Star Trek RP as long as you can seperate the differences between real life and Gor, unlike the lifestyle goreans who integrate it as much as possible (or the law allows)
“My final point is this, everything that happens on a Gor sim is mutual and consensual. No one ties anyone to the key board and puts a gun to their head and tells them they must role play a gorean slave.”
I’ll just requote what Quimby said in a comment recently, since I had a WHOLE section dedicated to the concept of consensuality in the notecard, which is starting to lead me to believe that you either didn’t read it or got through a certain chunk and became to enraged to finish. Since there’d be plenty of points for you to argue against in that section, but anyways this quote:
“I’d just like to point out that not all leashes, chains and collars are visible. Sometimes, it’s possible to be imprisoned in a cell without bars.”
Now, remember the Heaven’s gate cult that drank the poisoned kool-aid to get on some crazy spaceship behind a comet? Well my point is this, everything that happens in the Heaven’s Gate is mutual and consensual. No one ties anyone to the bed and puts a gun to their head and tells them they must drink the kool-aid.
Yet they do it anyways huh, and I imagine, had you known someone who was in it, you would have just said “oh well it’s consensual so it’s got to be okay” or would you have ATLEAST tried to make some argumentative points for why she shouldn’t stay.
Of course, i’m not stating that goreans are going to be drinking any poisoned kool-aid to get on a space ship, however there is some real emotional danger around that could lead to trouble, to quote a slave girl on another article:
“Removing the collar and thereby breaking the bond created between them by the collar, is in reality a fairly self-destructive act and an invitation to severe emotional pain and a kind of death.”
All i’m giving is some rational points against gorean philosophy for a person to mull over, to take what you said, reading this notecard is mutual and consensual. No one ties anyone to the key board and puts a gun to their head and tells them they must read this.
You can agree with it or disagree with it, but if you disagree with it and chose to post why, i’d just like to here more about what is specifically wrong with a rhetorical point, and not just “I disagree because I don’t like you and your ideas and therefore your points are misunderstood and factually incorrect”
Oerbewustzijn Archer
Dec 22nd, 2006
My comment on this.
Welcome in the lifestyle port city Brundisium, non Goreans wear a visitortag and are welcom to read, and explore the the city with respect.
Be Well Admin of Brundisium
Just a thought
Dec 22nd, 2006
I may not agree with, nor condone many of the actions of those that choose to make GOR into a lifestyle ….. But I don’t go around posting articles about it either.
In all fairness I personally find some some the underlying ideas to be something one could work in, in the bedroom. Once it leaves that most private of spaces it – to me – becomes a problem as no matter what followers of this lifestyle say, it is still controlling a person and telling them who they can talk to, what they can do, etc. I cannot even remember the number of times I’ve seen friends get into this lifestyle …. and had it destroy who they once were.
That is my problem with the lifestyle – but to each their own. I’ve always been there when those friends come back, needing a shoulder to cry on because of something their Mast or Mistress did to them.
The part of it that really wrenches at my gut is when they come to me for compassion and support, then turn and go to their master or mistress once it’s all over – just like anyone in an abusive relationship.
Yes, there are some that take other submissives on to protect them – from what I’ve seen that’s a low number as compared to the controlling types.
Sandra-Dee
Dec 29th, 2006
As a person who has recently freed herself from the Gorean lifestyle and lore, I can confidently agree with the arguments and thoughts which Artemis, establishes in his article.
It is difficult to reconnect with the friendships that were left to smolder while in the Gorean way of life and thinking. Some of the friends remember you and others are gone forever. It is important to make new connections outside of Gorean thought and to reinvent your persona in SL.
(That is one of the beauties of SL…the exploring of new worlds-within-worlds.)
I sat on the dock of one of the Gorean sims and chatted with several slave girls. One mentioned she had entered the Gorean world through the act of being raped while in roleplay. There was trauma in her words as she typed the messages. Yet when asking her WHY she returned she could not put it into words and just said..it was only her second time back online after the incident. Quimby’s earlier words come to mind:
” I’d just like to point out that not all leashes, chains and collars are visible. Sometimes, it’s possible to be imprisoned in a cell without bars.”
Mental cell bars are as powerful as those made of steel but perhaps less visible to the outsider.
Pink-Hair-And-A-Helmet
Jan 14th, 2007
Being a person who recently left Goreans roleplays it is really hard to fully get out of it. When I left the “Master” said this, “But out there you’re not my slave.” which was a hidden threat that if I left and stopped being his slave we couldn’t be friends. It traps you inside of the idea that if you leave, things won’t go right. That is a rather common technique used in cults. You commonly lose most of your friends that are “true” AKA addicted Goreans. The lifestyle is twisted, not only in the disgusting ideal of keeping humans as property, but that there is no true order. I quote “A cult without a leader”. Gorean roleplays represent a struggle to control human reactions, you should act like this or you will be shunned/banished/untrusted. I realize it is a personal choice and no body is forcing you to do it, but it is very high pressure and once you get in it’s hard to get out.
Warrior_of_Gor
Feb 4th, 2007
I’d just like to say that anyone who posts here with a comment against Gor who hasn’t read at least one of the books has no right to do so, it’s easy to attack what you don’t understand, and while some Gor RP-ers have had bad experiences, for the most part it’s an enjoyable RP experience for the majority of players.
Human nature means there will always be those who lose touch with reality & take things too far, but lets not tar all Goreans with the same brush!
Alex Fitzsimmons
Feb 5th, 2007
“I’d just like to say that anyone who posts here with a comment against Gor who hasn’t read at least one of the books has no right to do so”
Why? Putting aside any other concerns for the moment, half of what goes on in Gor sims runs highly contrary to the books anyway, despite the puzzling obsession with human avs only to maintain “authenticity” (no doubt the “authenticity” demonstrated by Panther Girls hanging out on the docks chatting, warriors hiring assassins to do their dirty work, slaves dominating their “Masters,” and city administrators changing laws to make it legal for warriors to attack their OWN Free Women … *after the fact* of one such attack … but of course human avies are much more important concerns than all of those matters).
Reading the books is no substitute for visiting the sims if you want to understand SL Gor. In fact, the books are at best a curiousity to refer to as supplemental sources of information. Everything you really need to know can be found in those sims.
Miraren Firefly
Feb 28th, 2007
Putting aside the debate of whether or not Gor qualifies as D/s/BDSM or not, it is a system in which a slave submits to a Master. Therefore, as a practicing real life submissive who submitted to various people in SL over a period of about two years, i think i have some perspective to talk about this.
My first and foremost concern regarding Gorean activity online is the ambiguity of its “roleplaying” status. Roleplaying, for the purpose of this comment, means creating a character – who may or may not have anything to do with you as a person, and at any rate does not do what you’d do in all situations – and playing that character as faithfully as possible. It’s a bit like controlling a virtual puppet; principally a recreational creative excercise.
Distinct from this is the far more common activity of creating a persona that represents some part of your actual personality, or simply augments your actual self – behaving how you normally would, and emotionally engaged with the concept that the avatar is “you” in some way – with various colorful, fantastic, entertaining or otherwise interesting elements.
The point, i think, is that while both are generally referred to as roleplaying, they are fundementally different. One is creating a seperate personality and controlling it, with the idea that what happens to your avatar happens to your avatar, not to you – and your avatar reacts in a different way than you would, because it is a creation of yours, but is not actually you. The other is simply putting a colorful outfit on over your own personality. When you do this – and this seems to make up a very large amount of activity on Second Life – you are emotionally engaged, because there is some sense that what happens to your avatar happens to *you*. Even if your avatar is a hermaphroditic fox, while you’re a human female IRL, that hermaphroditic fox avatar is channeling your self, and what happens to that avatar feels like it’s happening to you.
So, in short, what worries me is this:
Roleplaying emotionally problematic scenarios is well and good, if what you’re doing is actually roleplaying. However, once you become emotionally engaged, and are channeling yourself through your avatar – which i think is what happens with the majority of Goreans, and indeed a large portion (probably a majority) of SLers as a whole – the problematic elements of the Gorean scenario start having an actual impact.
Girls form actual emotional bonds to their Masters quite frequently, both in mainstream BDSM/D/s and in Gor, online. Therefore, if their avatar is killed, while they do not die, there is still emotional impact.
This emotional impact would not be there in any significant amount if they were truly roleplaying, but quite often it seems that they are only projecting roleplaying elements and personae onto their actual selves.
This is dangerous.
kiana Kuhr (known as tanya by her Master)
Mar 1st, 2007
Well, I will say I am a bit offended on one hand because I am a gorean lifestyler, but on the other hand, based on what you have probably seen of gor in SL, I cannot blame you for thinking it is absolutely insane, because I often think that it is myself. The SL Gor you see is for the most part, NOTHING like what is portrayed in the books.
John Norman is actually a philosopher. He is a professor at a University and has written much more than the gorean books. His books actually are not some sick fantasy he made up, but simply written about human nature. As civilized as we think we are, we are truly not far from our savage history. His books on Gor are not meant to be some gospel and he is no god. His books are a set of sci-fi/fantasy novels that have a strong undercurrent of a sort of survival of the fittest philosophy. There is even slavery in Star Wars and many other incredible works of literature/entertainment and some not so incredible. While a female slave *may* be killed if she is that incredibly displeasing, it actually would rarely occur. It is stated in the books that slaves are treated rather well. Perhaps even better than many women on our modern earth are. There is a lack of need for sadism and cruelty on Gor because men have outlets that allow them to be very masculine and dominant.
I must also mention that anything done in SL Gor is COMPLETELY consentual. It is very hard for me to believe that a girl could become so brainwashed by something that occurs in an online realm when she has the power to turn off the PC, teleport out, or IM the person asking not to go further. Any man who is actually gorean would not even wish to deal with a girl that doesn’t wish to be a slave. There are plenty of willing slaves so why waste time on a girl who is not willing. How ridiculous! I would also like to mention that gorean slaves ARE NOT victims. If they are the type to run and cry and claim they are victimized, they probably are not just “victims” of gor but victims of their own lack of will power and lack of self esteem.
You claim that gorean slaves are basically brainwashed into believing that gor is right and that we are not permitted a voice within the gorean community. That could not be more incorrect. Actually, in the books a common theme is that gorean men tend to enjoy highly intelligent slaves because they are much more pleasing to hold interesting conversations with. Perhaps you mistake not being able to have a voice with throwing a tantrum and acting like a child to get your own way. Gorean men do not tolerate women who use manipulative tactics to gain ground. Gorean men, from what I have experienced (and I have been in SL Gor for two years) actually enjoy an intelligent conversation with a slave as long as the level of respect is always mantained and proper protocol used.
If you wish to write on article about how horrible you think something is, it is completely your right. Just as it is my right to defend the philosophy of life I know and love. I would like to make a comparison to our own modern religions and philosophies of the world. There are some really amazing religions… Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc… There are MILLIONS of people who practice these religions without killing anyone or harming a soul, even though the holy books of these religions are rift with violence, subjugation of women, slavery, rape, etc. Then you have the very few religious extremists who do a great disservice to all others who believe in such a faith, by doing heinous acts and using the religion as justification. I am thinking specifically of… The Crusades, The Spanish Inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials, The Al-Queda terrorism cells, and even nationalistic things like the Roman Empire, the British Empire and even our current American Empire. It is unfair and biased to base your views of something on a small part of the population that could not be further from the core values of the gorean philosophy. Lifestylers DO NOT think that killing your slave is okay. Sure it happens in the books. And that is where the line between the philosophy and the fiction is drawn. Any sane person knows that murder is not exactly moral. The Bible itself has plenty of murder and slavery and yet you do not see all Christians practicing such in our modern world. Why? Because the philosophy is more important overall than the individual stories contained in the work of literature.
Gor is hardly a cult. There is not one established leader. Even lifestylers do not see John Norman as some god-like creature. He is simply a man who exposed his philosphy through highly entertaining and erotic books. I respect his body of work and I respect him as an author. How successful is he to have created such a series that is blacklisted from many libraries/etc! How grand is our America that we can write things like the gor novels without fear for our lives! I would like to leave you with one excerpt from a letter that John Norman wrote to his fans… it is very telling…
“Gor is a continent in science fiction. Many may wish it did not exist, but it is there. It is not hard to find, really. Just look for a world that lies a thousand degrees north of monothink, a thousand degrees east of orthodoxy, a thousand degrees west of ideological conformity, a continent far from the placid waters of predictable mediocrity, a different world, one real, one like no other, one beyond the familiar world’s horizon, one emergent from far, tumultuous, untamed seas, a world alert to deep currents, which listens to secret whispers, which wears stars in her hair. The maps of ideologically servile cartographers may choose not to show the Gorean world, but it is there, a wonderful, forbidden continent. Some of you know her, and have been there.” -excerpt from a letter to the Gorean Group from John Norman, himself (2000)
I wish you all well.
-A real life gorean slave girl owned by Adamark of SL
kiana Kuhr (known as tanya by her Master)
Mar 1st, 2007
I would like to revise one part of my post…
“It is unfair and biased to base your views of something on a small part of the population that could not be further from the core values of the gorean philosophy. Lifestylers DO NOT think that killing your slave is okay. Sure it happens in the books. And that is where the line between the philosophy and the fiction is drawn. Any sane person knows that murder is not exactly moral.”
I have read nearly all of the gorean novels, minus a few that I am currently reading. From what I have read, the actual killing of a slave NEVER occurs within the stories, but rather is eluded to as a possibility if a girl is that dreadfully disobedient or displeasing.
R. Darling
Mar 1st, 2007
I had to laugh aloud when I read this supposed “article,” and I’ve spent the last several minutes researching the background of both the “journalist” who wrote the story, and the “publisher” and “editor” of this web site. I use quotes around those terms because, having worked in the newspaper industry for more than 20 years, I can honestly say I’ve rarely seen anything less representative of professional journalism or news reporting than this article and website in general.
Folks, this is tabloid journalism at its finest. The author of the story is a member of a group whose charter and name profess a hatred of Gor. S/he presents unrelated articles and writings as “evidence” to prove points which represent her personal bias, and paints a generalized portrait using only facts which serve her purpose. Although she purports to have had editorial assistance in the creation of the story, I find myself amazed that any self-respecting editor would let such a piece of schlock be released to their readers.
It is clear to me, upon reading “About the Herald” (upper-right-rail link on this web site) that the only purpose for this article is to spark debate and hopefully encourage traffic to this web site. The tactics employed here are no different than those of the National Enquirer or the Globe…it is purely a sensationalist story meant to anger and stir readers, regardless of their views on Gorean RP.
In fact, the publisher and editors should be leery of such stories, whose publication could potentially have the effect of inciting mass hatred and attacks on one of the largest RP segments within SL…much like the Inquisition spurred pogroms, Crusades, and genocide in times of old. The author of this story compares SL Goreans to the Third Reich, and yet employs similar tactics to direct hatred toward a subset of SL players whom she clearly has little knowledge of.
I urge the publisher of this web site to consider drastic improvements in the quality of its writers and stories. Should he wish, I would be happy to refer him to a host of resources which would assist him in properly identifying quality journalism and ethical standards.
Artemis Fate
Mar 1st, 2007
“I had to laugh aloud when I read this supposed “article,” and I’ve spent the last several minutes researching the background of both the “journalist” who wrote the story, and the “publisher” and “editor” of this web site. …Folks, this is tabloid journalism at its finest.”
Imagine that in these “several minutes” of research, that you didn’t discover that a.) I never claim to be a journalist, b.) I didn’t write this paper for this site, but published it independantly as a notecard in Second Life (Urizenus asked me if he could publish it here, it was infact chopped up and my sources removed to be placed here), and c.) the Herald prides itself as being SL’s first Tabloid.
And in terms of all the replies, you goreans say pretty much the same thing everytime, “You can’t comment on gor, because you’re not gorean, therefore you don’t understand” browse the page’s comments and you’ll probably find 6 or 7 different replies to that statement and every other statement.
kiana Kuhr (known as tanya by her Master)
Mar 1st, 2007
Actually, I think that you could most definitely comment on what gor is and about being gorean if your sources includes even one of John Norman’s books. I read your notecard in SL as well and I did not find one book cited as source. And no you don’t say gor is a cult per se, but you do say that it could be if we had cohesiveness. One thing I don’t understand is why people are so concerned. Goreans, as far as I know, do not travel around like missionaries trying to convert everyone they see into being a slave. And there are PLENTY of free women in gor that are well respected by both men and other women. Most people that I have spoken to would prefer that gor stay exclusive to those who choose to understand it.
You told my Master (Adamark) that not one gorean provides reasons as to why your article is wrong. So I will provide reasons. Your article is wrong because it does not include even one source from the Gorean novels written by John Norman. Your article is wrong because you make blanket statements about goreans when it seems you have never even participated in a gorean community or read a gorean book. How could you possibly have insight on what goreans are and what they do if all of your evidence is based upon hearsay? I don’t subscribe to the idea that only those who are part of something understand that. That is rubbish. I am not Buddhist but I can tell you I understand it. But at least if you are not part of the community/philosophy you are commenting on, look at the direct source instead of relying upon hearsay.
I would like to clarify that unlike many other philosophies of life, Goreans do not claim their way is the absolute only way to exist. Actually, goreans tend to think that their way is right for them. I guess that is why I don’t understand why someone could have such negative feelings towards Gor. No one forces anyone to be a gorean slave or any other type of gorean. People seek it out for themselves. No one forces people to stay. If you comment on those “friends” who make a choice to join gor as a slave or otherwise, and you claim that they are brainwashed, I actually find that absolutely insulting of their intelligence and choices. Perhaps that is why they do not talk to you anymore, not because they are told they cannot. People love to dismiss things for brainwashing when they simply do not understand it. No one ever stops to ask the female slave what she really thinks about her position in gorean society.
I find it funny that as a slave, I have been more degraded by those who supposedly are supporting the cause of the poor victimized female slave, than by Gorean men. I say this because I find it insulting to brush someone’s choices off as brainwashing, or insuate they are not smart enough to make an educated choice in how they choose to live. And when people have done such to me, I have chosen to refrain from engaging with them further, friend or not. Why would I have someone in my life that thinks me stupid and incapable of making decisions? Gorean men tend to place intelligence in a slave girl far above many other things. I have been more “victimiized” by those well meaning souls who try to “save” me from gor than I ever have by a Gorean man. I also offer that if a female slave feels herself victimized, she is likely someone who victimized not only by Gor but by life in general. I mean, honestly Artemis, you appear to be a strong, adult female, if you think yourself being ill treated by someone wouldn’t you just leave? Why put yourself through it? What power does someone truly have over you in an online realm? I am wary of those adults that claim to be victimized online when they have the physical power to shut off the PC at any time. If they really are that weak of mind to be so taken by someone online then it is not merely an issue of being victimized online but victimized in any situation, as they lack the confidence, will power, self esteem, who knows, to ensure their own well being. I see that as a larger issue that could possibly be inflamed by gor but definitely not caused by it.
From the outside, it may appear that Gor is about female degradation, because our modern world has convinced females that we are exactly like men and can do anything a man can. Gor does not see females as inferior in all things. We are simply different than males, in the very least, physically. Gor celebrates the difference. There some things a female slave or woman in general is FARRR BETTER at doing than a man. In the books it actually states that a female’s compability to love and be loved is one of the most amazing things.
I would offer that as much as goreans may “turn off” when you say cult and not read beyond that, you are indeed guilty of such yourself by “turning off” when you hear slavery or male superiority. I urge you to research from the very source of Gor, the books themselves, and I can point you to some good websites that are accurate to the books and offer a place to discuss gor, even if you do not agree with it.
I also find something ironic. I doubt you will find a group in SL that has a charter that says something like “Converting those who are not gorean to the gorean philosophy”. Because goreans really do not want people who do not fully wish understand gor in our world. We really don’t care if you don’t ever know what it is to be gor. We do care about an inaccurate portayal of what it is to be gorean. Those who are “Anti-Gor” have formed their own group trying to deter people from becoming gorean by trying to scare them away from it with false information and misconceptions. I object to many different things that happen in Second Life, like age-play for instance. But I do not form groups to oppose things that willing adults choose to do with themselves. Who am I to tell someone (a legal adult) they have no right to exist in this virtual world exactly how they wish when they make an active choice to do such? I offer a question: If goreans do not actively convert or recruit people to be gorean, how is the population of gor in SL spreading so rapidly? My guess is that people find something interesting in gor and wish to experience it in a safe place that Second Life offers.
I have nothing more to say, except that I urge those who are anti-gor to really consider who you are defending and what your defense really is.
I wish you all well.
Bear Jessop
Mar 7th, 2007
Nature abhors a vacuum, and so does human nature. If we see a separate group of people, especially a group with significant numbers, and have no information (worse, only enough to come to inaccurate conclusion) we tend to fill that vacuum with our terrors. I have had to deal with this in real life, as a Freemason of long standing, and now have to deal with it as an actor who role plays a Gorean Master.
SL Gor is, at its base, consensual role play. Much like any improvisational work, we have a baseline that our characters operate within, and then we see where the situation and differing personalities take us. I have seen “actors” at various times play Free Men, male slaves and, crossing gender lines, create female characters to play female slaves, free women, even the aggressive, Amazon like panthers. The key here is that all *pick* their role, and can move within the status of their community through role play, creation of new characters, etc.
I am the Admin of a Gor RP sim named “Thentis”. All observers are quite welcome, with the proviso that they wear an observer tag, assume something vaguely human in the way of an avatar, and keep chat interaction withing brackets, to distinguish actual role play from out of character inquiries, statements. Rather than “pull” everyone into our evil web, we highly discourage role play on newcomers parts, until they have become familiar with what Gor is, and find a comfort zone/role to play within.
The world of role play Gor is made intentionally harsh, provocative, and in some ways almost geared to character conflict. As a male Gorean, my character has been “killed” more times than I care to think about, tortured, even been castrated by Panthers. But I have also enjoyed the vicarious thrill of defeating the Legions of my enemies, and coming back to the home fires to have wine, and cuddle with a cute female avatar. I have seen a woman move from being slave, to one of the most feared (and respected) outlaws in Gor. In short, for this many people to be playing the game (well more women than men)there has to be fun points. Role play, much like life, is what an actor makes of it.
I have known thousands of people who have elected to play in Gor and, if it makes you feel any better, I have yet to find one who, in real life thought that slavery was anything less than evil, that torture was cool, or had an inclination to refer to a female co-worker as “slut” at the water fountain.
Lighten up, have fun. If you are ever in Thentis, I’ll buy ya a paga.
Bear Graves, actor playing Bear Jessop, Warrior and Co-Admin of Thentis
Artemis Fate
Mar 7th, 2007
I would like to point out Bear, since I fear I haven’t made it clear enough in my notecards, that I feel that Gor can be done in a way that is exempt from most of these factors in any serious sense when the player is able to differentiate the difference between reality and Gor, and doesn’t try to bring the latter’s philosophies and culture into the real world, as those who practice it as a “lifestyle” try.
“Actually, I think that you could most definitely comment on what gor is and about being gorean if your sources includes even one of John Norman’s books. I read your notecard in SL as well and I did not find one book cited as source.”
I do quote Norman once or twice in the original notecard to show what is perpetrated as philosophy in the books, but ultimately what use is it to quote Norman when what i’m refering to is the group of lifestylers who shot off of Norman’s work, and in someways are even completely unrelated to the books of Gor? I’m not criticizing the books persay, the books on their own would be no threat or problem since they’re purely science fiction fantasy not meant to be taken seriously. I’m criticizing the offshoot of people who have taken these sci-fi books seriously and attempted to implement them in their everyday life. Thus I use sources that refer to the Second Life (and sometimes outside of Second Life) gor community instead of the books themselves.
“Your article is wrong because you make blanket statements about goreans when it seems you have never even participated in a gorean community or read a gorean book.”
I agree that I do make blanket statements, because it’s almost impossible not too. Lifestyle Gor is so segmented and diverse, that it’s members to groups with different mores and values can often be counted on two hands. I tried to go after the most core of beliefs that is most commonly held with all these groups, but of course there are discrepencies. To the latter part of that statement, I have both participated in gorean communities and read 5 gorean books.
“I would like to clarify that unlike many other philosophies of life, Goreans do not claim their way is the absolute only way to exist”
Although if you want to get the book involved so much, as you seem to, it is repeatedly stated that people on earth are unhappy because they are not following the “natural order” of a man enslaving a woman. Now when terms such as “natural order” are thrown about, I would have to say this takes an absolutist perspective with philosophy.
“No one forces people to stay. If you comment on those “friends” who make a choice to join gor as a slave or otherwise, and you claim that they are brainwashed, I actually find that absolutely insulting of their intelligence and choices. Perhaps that is why they do not talk to you anymore, not because they are told they cannot. People love to dismiss things for brainwashing when they simply do not understand it.”
This is one of the cardinal responses, “no one forces anyone to stay” but invisible chains are stronger than material. Cults rarely seem to force people to stay, certainly no one was forcing the people of Heaven’s Gate to stay and drink the kool-aid, and i’m sure if you’d asked them before hand if they wanted to do this, they would have quickly exclaimed yes. Now, i’m not necessarily calling Gor to this level of cult (since as I mentioned before, there’s far too much variation of practices between the mini-groups of Gor), but what I am saying is that “choice” is far more complex than just a “it is or it isn’t” statement, and easily bounds into complex psychological and sociological factors, and “want to stay” doesn’t equal “should stay”.
“No one ever stops to ask the female slave what she really thinks about her position in gorean society.”
During my initial research, I actually asked these sorts of questions a LOT. All I would usually get is either a “I’m just roleplaying” or “I just like D/s” response, or the targeted response of this article “This is the natural order”
“I find it funny that as a slave, I have been more degraded by those who supposedly are supporting the cause of the poor victimized female slave, than by Gorean men. I say this because I find it insulting to brush someone’s choices off as brainwashing, or insuate they are not smart enough to make an educated choice in how they choose to live. And when people have done such to me, I have chosen to refrain from engaging with them further, friend or not. Why would I have someone in my life that thinks me stupid and incapable of making decisions?”
“Brainwashing” or conditioning has nothing to do with how smart you are, it’s not insulting to say that a person has had conditioning to a certain belief. I find it ironic, that you are taken aback by people supposedly insulting your intelligence by saying you’re conditioned, and yet you would swallow such quotes from gorean masters which repeatedly tell a slave to be unquestioning to her condition, and unthinking of herself, only her master. The only one thinking that you are incapable of making decisions would be the gorean philosophy that deems a slave can’t do anything without the guiding hand of the master.
“Why put yourself through it? What power does someone truly have over you in an online realm?”
I bet that when you read my notecard you were pretty pissed off. Apparently therefore, I have the power to piss you off. I think this concept of “I am completely safe in the virtual world because of that off switch” is what makes it dangerous. There’s no physical harm, there’s psychological, which is debatably worse. You’ve probably been in Gor for a while, i’m sure by now you’ve met atleast one or two slaves who were hurt deeply by a relationship in Gor online. Where was their all-protective off switch when they were hurt?
“I see that as a larger issue that could possibly be inflamed by gor but definitely not caused by it.”
That’s exactly my point. Gor isn’t causing Low self-esteem and these “victimized” women, it’s taking advantage of it, and I would argue, making it worse or at the very least not improving it.
“Gor celebrates the difference. There some things a female slave or woman in general is FARRR BETTER at doing than a man. In the books it actually states that a female’s compability to love and be loved is one of the most amazing things.”
I responded to this kind of statement in another thread. Gor “CELEBRATES” the difference? That’s like saying America celebrated the difference between black and white by enslaving all black people and forcing them to work on plantations, cause they’re way better at lots of things! Like hard labour and picking cotton!
“I would offer that as much as goreans may “turn off” when you say cult and not read beyond that, you are indeed guilty of such yourself by “turning off” when you hear slavery or male superiority. I urge you to research from the very source of Gor, the books themselves, and I can point you to some good websites that are accurate to the books and offer a place to discuss gor, even if you do not agree with it.”
Actually, my first response to hearing about a community that was somehow (unthinkable for me at the time) pro-slavery, my first response was if anything “turning on”, I was as intrigued as I was unprepared and was at first indoctrinated into the community for months, before I managed to take an overall look at what’s happened and realized how much I had changed. From there on I spent more than a year (if not 2) studying the cause and effect of the community, the philosophy, and what makes people get involved in something like this. As I mentioned before, I had read 5 of the books, and by then it had become painfully clear that Norman was just repeating the same philosophy over and over in as many different ways as he could, offering these examples of strong women being beaten down and enslaved and finally recognizing their “true” purpose in life.
“Those who are “Anti-Gor” have formed their own group trying to deter people from becoming gorean by trying to scare them away from it with false information and misconceptions.”
Since i’m the only one in the Anti-Gor group really who has taken any sort of “published” information, I would have to assume you’re talking about mine, and I would also like to point out that you started this out with: “You told my Master (Adamark) that not one gorean provides reasons as to why your article is wrong. So I will provide reasons.” and then never actually really debated any of my points, just said I didn’t know what I was talking about because I didn’t read the books and went on to talk about your personal experiences. So nothing in my card by those standards are false information or misconceptions, they are just different opinions from what you believe.
I do find it interesting that you have since joined “The Official Anti-Gor”, what’s up with that?
“I object to many different things that happen in Second Life, like age-play for instance.”
I dislike a number of things in Second Life, like ageplay, but I leave it alone. The difference between Gor and things like Age-play, is Gor has a philosophy and Gor has a structure. It’s that philosophy that makes Gor dangerous and the fact that people subscribe to it. Philosophy is the first step towards action, and the kind of action where one simply cannot believe there is any better action besides it.
“Who am I to tell someone (a legal adult) they have no right to exist in this virtual world exactly how they wish when they make an active choice to do such?”
You know, you’ve made a lot of mentions to choice, and i’d like to point out that what my card is to gor, what you are is to me. After all, you claim to have read the SL notecard, then you should remember the very first part of it, which was unfortunately cut out of the Herald Post: “This notecard discusses the Gorean lifestyle and its potential dangers. It was meant to largely express facts, concerns, and opinions and is not meant to restrict freedom of choice. This is a critical, first-hand account of Gorean lifestyle written by a close observer. In the end, if you want to be gorean it’s entirely up to you.”
If anything, I would say I am emphasizing a person’s decision making skills and intelligence, by giving them a counter position from which before there was none.
“I offer a question: If goreans do not actively convert or recruit people to be gorean, how is the population of gor in SL spreading so rapidly? My guess is that people find something interesting in gor and wish to experience it in a safe place that Second Life offers.”
Part of it would be because of IRC goreans, Palace Goreans, and Active Worlds Goreans migrating to Second Life.
And who says goreans don’t actively recruit people? They don’t walk door to door or anything, but pick out a gorean, and chances are their profile will have numerous quotes from the gor books intended to persuade, or summarized a central philosophical theme. If a person goes to a gorean city and obeys the laws enough to not get immediately banned, they will likely be introduced to the library, have gor quotes and information thrown at them, and be encouraged to join in. As well as the many city’s “Forced collar” policies, I once saw a dutch newbie who spoke poor english come in to a city confused as to what it was, after a bit she was “force collared” and asked for her to follow, she followed still confused as to what was going on, she for some time after that become a hardcore gorean slave.
I can’t think of many “lifestyle” goreans or true goreans that won’t spout philosophy of Gor to non-goreans whenever they’re given a chance.
“I have nothing more to say, except that I urge those who are anti-gor to really consider who you are defending and what your defense really is.”
I would of course, say the same to you.
Bear Jessop
Mar 8th, 2007
While I always glad to read intelligent counter point, you replied to the comment above mine, not mine.
Having said that, Gor has its share of folks who too heavily identify with the role they are playing. Many an abandoned slave and master have taken their characters lives when their SO left (per example). The again, I know a rather pathetic soul who “committed suicide” when the Barbi club escort they were interested showed no reciprocal interest. Will some confused individuals from SL Gor tried to take the principles acted out in this rpg into real life? Doubtful but, if it has happened, it’s dues to those people being one enchilada shy of a combo meal, not the role play.
Respectfully,
Bear Graves, actor playing Bear Jessop, Co-Admin of Thentis
Artemis Fate
Mar 8th, 2007
“While I always glad to read intelligent counter point, you replied to the comment above mine, not mine.”
Yeah, I actually meant for the first paragraph to be a reply to your post, then the rest a reply to Kiana’s post, I can see how that can be confusing though
“Will some confused individuals from SL Gor tried to take the principles acted out in this rpg into real life?”
This isn’t necessarily a debate of “will they”, it’s that they HAVE. “lifestyle” Gor has been around and practiced in real life for more than a decade. Some even claim to be 2nd or even 3rd (though I doubt that’s possible) generation gorean lifestylers.
There’s a gorean lifestyle presence in Second life, try sims like Burundism (I believe is the spelling, something like that), and others where if you go there and roleplay, they’ll likely tell you to stop and that this is not a roleplay sim, this is a TRUE GOREAN sim.
This isn’t something that just happened here and there, this is a sizeable chunk of the goreans in SL (not a majority, but certainly not an insignificant amount either)
Breoghan
Mar 19th, 2007
I’m posting this as a one time statement. I couldn’t care less what response I may or may not get. I will apologize for a perhaps disjointed presentation. I’m a little bit annoyed and there’s so many points that I can’t address them all.
“I don’t say…”, but then you do in fact go ahead and ‘say’.
You make blanket comments to demonstrate your theories, none of which can be substantiated, but only warn against a nebulous dark fate…if you’re susceptible; if you are manipulable; if you can be forced to do something by being told you can’t take part in something any more if you don’t play the game (what kind of specious nonsense is that! Forced to do something by being banned from doing what you didn’t want to do in the first place?) You certainly didn’t answer the telling point that role-play has little connection to the books. Nor did you respond to the point about the philosophies and lifestyles on fictional Gor merely reflecting pre-existing (world-wide, I might add) human behaviour and thinking, past and present.
You argue your original commentary with counter-punch statements – oh, I stand corrected. You said at one point that you had read 5 of the books. I wonder? Did you read them as stories; as entertainment? Or were you ‘researching’, hostile critiquing? The latter certainly sounds like it might be the case. That isn’t reading the books. It searching for dirt to substantiate preconceived ideas.
Later you state that people should do as they choose ultimately, in fact that this was your opening point in the original post though now deleted. I notice that you did not reinsert it with this rendering of the original, only commenting later on when it became convenient presumably.
The list is endless and no doubt the original author of this whole thing will come back with more non-answers. So be it. She isn’t arguing, she’s pontificating.
Someone mentioned the Kaotians as an example of “Goreans” marching slaves around on leashes and outraging public opinion etc etc etc.
When that sad individual Lee Thompson came to what was probably the main discussion site for things Gorean (World of Gor) the only one there that had any time for the guy was another man that had started joining in the conversations trying to play one poster against another (yep – ant-Gor activist). Thompson himself made the point that his group had “gone beyond Gor” or that he had been thrown out of Gor for his ideas (including setting up an island community where he could practice his beliefs away from the forces of the law)…. Gor is not an organized entity. There is no high council that makes rules or has the power to “throw someone out” because they didn’t like them.
Lee Thompson’s self-seeking Kaotian fantasies were nothing more than an inadequate personality trying to get his 15 minutes of fame. He had as much to do with Gor as that murderer (who used Gor to contact women he could bring within reach who could as easily have used M/s, D/s, BDSM and any other combination of initials to get what he wanted).
About half of the Master/slave pairings that I know are married couples. There are many “slaves” who seek “masters”, sometimes multiple slaves with a single master. Head-up! In our modern society, it is the slave or the submissive that actually controls what is going on. For anything else to have happened then it is stepping beyond the bounds of the law (yes, that’s only if they get caught – the same applies to thieves and murders, embezzlers and con-artists). This isn’t my opinion. It is acknowledged in studies (no I can’t quote a study – I’m writing not as a prepared comment, but as someone who is royally pissed off with the arrant nonsense I’ve been reading here!)
I consider myself a “Gorean”. Not because I fantasize about living on Gor (I have a well published dislike of the unrepresentative RP that goes on, even if I do say they have the right to do as they please). Not because I have daydreams about being a sword-swinging muscle rippling barbarian warrior types with gorgeous females draping themselves over my feet (Hell, I’m fat, unfit, decidedly unhealthy – I don’t hide behind a computer screen). The only slave I have “owned” was a woman I met that was getting harassed by wannabe “masters” because she was just looking in on some sites as a slave. She took my initial as a “collar”, did her look around, and left the scene behind after trying it out in various sites. I’m far too lazy to take on the responsibility that comes with “ownership” of another person.
“Torture”? That’s something that happens with the BDSM and SM crowds (consensual again, btw).
As an argument by accusation, how about one from me?
A statement, more than anything.
“Methinks she doth protest too loud.”
Artemis Fate
Mar 19th, 2007
I’m not going to argue any particular point in here, because as you said “I’m posting this as a one time statement.” and “The list is endless and no doubt the original author of this whole thing will come back with more non-answers. So be it. She isn’t arguing, she’s pontificating.”, so no doubt whatever I say it’ll simply be treated as herecy to the gorean, because “I don’t have the perfect gorean experience” or “disagree, and is therefore wrong” or whatever gorean logical bullshit.
So instead i’m just going to address some questions (that you branched out into inaccurate statements)
“You said at one point that you had read 5 of the books. I wonder? Did you read them as stories; as entertainment? Or were you ‘researching’, hostile critiquing? The latter certainly sounds like it might be the case. That isn’t reading the books. It searching for dirt to substantiate preconceived ideas.”
When I read the books, it was my introduction to Gor, outside of a light run in with a Palace Gor community, at that time I was fairly pro-gor and involved, it wasn’t until later that I was able to look back on before I got introduced to Gor and how it was after, and notice how much i’d changed and how it wasn’t me to act like that. I read those books with the full interest and mind ready to swallow bullshit philosophy as much as any Gorean. Even today I believe, except for the bogus philosophy crammed down your throat and Norman’s sub-standard writing, that the Books make for a good pulp Sci-fi tale.
“Later you state that people should do as they choose ultimately, in fact that this was your opening point in the original post though now deleted. I notice that you did not reinsert it with this rendering of the original, only commenting later on when it became convenient presumably.”
I didn’t have anything to do with the re-posting of my notecard here besides that I okayed it, they cut out and altered quite a few things (like taking out my sources) for one reason or another (didn’t tell me about it either), and it’s been problematic. The notecard in SL is the most original, complete, and envisioned version, this one is more like the abriged version.
Either way, I haven’t deleted anything from my original card or comments to the reposting of it here.
vikingbezerker bobak
Mar 19th, 2007
well basically i’m gorean because i like the respect that goes around…. i’m not a slaver, i’m not a pervert, and i’m not into all the cyber rubbish.
what the problem here is that gor, like all fantasy worlds attracts more than it’s fair share of fantasy nutters who seem to think that having some kingdom in cyberspace and umpteen slaves actually makes them something.
plus because of the nature of gorean society it creates “plastic goreans” who are not there for the setup but merely there to dominate women and be perverted.
there are some of us out there who are good, and it’s not all about the master slave thing… personally i like it because in a cybernetic world that has few controls it has some, and it’s entertaining.
yes there is a sexual domination content, yes it’s a macho male oriented world, and yes it’s fun…… but do i take it to real life? no freaking way!
sorry but i’m not that bloody sad.
Matthew
May 9th, 2007
This has been very amusing. I’m “New” to the Gorean lifestyle. I haven’t see it in practice in SL.
A few posts back, I found this comment.
“That’s exactly my point. Gor isn’t causing Low self-esteem and these “victimized” women, it’s taking advantage of it, and I would argue, making it worse or at the very least not improving it.”
I want to comment in the Real World practice, Me and my woman put the lifestyle into practice before even leaning what Gor was. So when I first learned of Gor, and it’s claims of the “natural order of things”, it was fully inclined to believe it. Since implementing the lifestyle, my woman is 10 time more self confident than she ever was in the 15 years I’ve known her.
Despite the poor criminal reference, I enjoy a good debate and I think both sides have come up with very good points. No, Gor is not for everybody but statements like this show that the author truly does not understand even the slaves perspective. I would say that the lifestyle would be demeaning to the author. I don’t however view the lifestyle as demeaning to everybody. People thrive and truly bloom when they finally find their natural place in life. For some people, it is to be slave, for others, Masters, and yet others, simply to be free.
I think that any one group should not consider any other group as lesser or degraded simply because they are not like them. Such is the very definition of prejudice. In the modern culture of “tolerance”, I always amused at the amount of preaching that this lifestyle or that is wrong and intolerant because it doesn’t fit in my ideas of write and wrong but find endless debates on how it’s good or bad.
I think the author and some who disagree with her should stop and think before rattling on about how (W)e (A)re (R)ight…it just perpetuates hate and prejudice.
Mk. XIII
May 24th, 2007
An interesting article and debate. Any grouping of people can employ the sort of tactics described – be they religions, political cliques or lifestyle cults – right down to the possessive bloke who diligently checks his girlfriend’s mobile and won’t let her go out with her old circle of friends. It is of course a sign of fatal weakness – that adherence to the One True Way on offer can be threatened by any whiff of contact with the supposedly meaningless muddle that is the un-believing world. A number of respondents here are quite adamant that their version of Gor does not use these tactics – well, good. But that’s not a reason to tolerate any that do.
Ultimately, the Gor phenomenon, in RL and SL, highlights the depressing banality of life in the chunk of the world that has money to burn and leisure time to waste. It’s a symptom of how trivial and up-ourselves we have become, how keen we are to retreat from a world where people really struggle and really suffer and really get hurt. A constant complaint is that you can’t comprehend the Gorean lifestyle unless you’ve lived it. This written by people who, presumably, haven’t actually been taken from their families, trafficked, used primarily for sex and physically abused to ensure compliance – yet still they claim to have some deep understanding of what slavery and punishment is REALLY all about. Irony, anyone?
Perhaps Gorean evangelists should go and find victims of the above and preach to them about their ideas of the “natural order of things”. The politest response they’d get, I would suggest, would be along the lines of “Go back to your brain-free philosophising, your sad little suburban games and your one-handed typing, you flabby social inadequates.”
Another riposte is that critics have obviously never read a Gor book (let alone the whole series). While others have mentioned that SL Gor sims bear only a passing resemblance to the books, they are the source material, so this is a valid point. However it should be pointed out that I wouldn’t wish the reading of a John Norman novel on my worst enemy. I tried to get through one, God knows I did, but the sheer direness of it was too much in the end. You’ve got to hand it to Goreans: with the likes of George Orwell, Aldous Huxley and Iain Banks producing provocative views of alternative worlds (to name but three), they went and chose Norman. Which offers a nice symmetry: banal, unimaginative, formulaic books attract banal, unimaginative, formulaic people to act out banal, unimaginative, formulaic fantasies.
Which is ok, really. That such people should voluntarily round themselves up and parcel themselves off to where I’m not going to meet them is very decent of them and shows that whatever their other flaws, they do at least understand that many of the rest of us don’t suffer fools gladly. If there is an evangelising element among them looking to prey on the vulnerable then they should be exposed and opposed, but then that is true of any grouping, be it religious, political, lifestyle, whatever. Let’s leave consenting adults to get a bunch of pixels to do whatever they want somewhere out of sight. And for those that venture forth to tell us how great it is to be Gorean – just point at them and laugh, long and hard.
Kristen
Dec 15th, 2007
I used to play in gorean chat site and can confirm all the tactics you mentioned. In addition to the gorean life stylers there are many who view it as just a game and don’t live it when they turn off the computer. The ones who call themselves real goreans will tell their slaves they can’t talk to other slaves either because they don’t know if the slave is a gamer or real so they keep them separated until the slave is properly conditioned.
Here are a couple of sites readers might want to check out.
http://www.cyberwolfman.com/awtgor.htm http://gornz.tripod.com/
There used to be a site about John Norman who was Hitler’s right hand man and about a conspircy to keep communism alive through a series of books which bring of to the gorean novels. If anyone knows where this site is please post it for me again. There are also gorean camps for kids. Why aren’t the authorities or children services investigating these activities?
Takashi
Mar 15th, 2008
First, before I bother to get into anything, do you realize how utterly IGNORANT and bigoted you sound to anyone who’s bothered to read, or at least actually STUDY in depth the views of GOR, you sound? Seriously, you need to take a giant step backwards, and reread everything you’ve said, and then compare it versus to the ACTUAL facts of not only WHAT Gor is, but who REAL lifestylers are. Not insane zealots, who think the books are a bible, or something to be done word for word.
You focus FAR too heavily on the nitwits running rampant on an ONLINE *ROLEPLAY* game, versus real life people, and the books themselves; stop taking out your vendetta with moronic BDSM and D/S people who obviously have serious issues that they need to work out either with themselves or a professional, on Gorean people, who, when serious about what they do, are the LAST people to be 99% of what you’ve spewed about.
Where to even start with you? First of all, the books are not a bible, or a religious scroll; they’re not anything other than a fictional series of writings that touch on, sometimes very deeply, the raw inner instincts of man, AND woman alike. They by no means are something to be held into a light that is anything other than possible guidelines, written by a man who had the balls to write about a world that, quite frankly, a great deal of people in reality are too afraid, or too socially beaten down, to accept and embrace; they can barely be honest with themselves about how they feel about what size their pants are, let alone about what they crave in a relationship. And, no, I’m not talking sexually. The sexuality is an aspect that is ALSO far too focused on and bastardized, when it’s barely the basis of anything other than self expression of inner instincts that all humans have, some more than others at that. So stop making it out like it’s some CULT or religious sect; it’s NOT. It’s people who agree on beliefs, who see something that others don’t, who have the GUTS to stand apart from ‘normal’ society in their relationships and actions. They’re NOT blind faithed zealots.
You want blind faithed zealots that are dangerous to women? Go study up on Mormonism while you’re on a tirade about woman’s rights, or being manipulated and brainwashed. Take a good, long look at the Mormons sects that have women, no, excuse me, GIRLS, who are married off to fifty year old men against their will, and have to bear their children, while they’re not given ANY education, or shown anything other than total and utter control and manipulation so they do as told, and are good little bitches to their ‘father figure husbands’. And don’t tell me that’s crap either, it’s well documented, especially in the last few years, how these women are used and treated, not given education or lives, practically just bodies to carry children and hands to do work a man is too lazy to bother with, so when he dies, he can inherit his own goddamn planet. Do that, THEN you can come to me and talk about cults, because you’ll be well versed in actualities, versus your pathetic attempts to box up Gor
Anyway, as I said, Gor is in no way a cult, nor is it a threat to women; EVERY WOMAN SUBMITS WILLINGLY. No one is told to, and no one SHOULD, go around LITERALLY collaring women in reality and holding them against their will. If they are, or did? They should be dealt with according to the law, and then have their ass beat for bastardizing something that is no way about that. But that’s not the point anyway, none of it is about a man using a woman as a ‘slave’ in the terms that the word slave has been used in for hundreds of years. Please, don’t be so naïve and afraid of words like ‘master’ or ‘slave’, and instantly assume that its’ something being put in victim and another in villain.
There IS NO VICTIM in willingly giving yourself to someone, and accepting what you FEEL inside yourself. NO ONE is made to feel a way that they shouldn’t, about themselves. If they don’t feel that way, they can, and this especially applies to SL, LEAVE.
A woman in Gor is not an animal, not a dog, not to be stupid. A master in Gor is not a controller, not a nitpicking scientist behind a microscope micromanaging what a woman does. A woman in Gor is to be just that, a woman, and a woman is meant to be intelligent, and have her will, and have her grace, and beauty, and sexuality. And it’s to be brought out of her by a man who can help to teach her, educate her, embrace her, and provide an environment where she won’t get treated like some leper or horrible person for being what she is. THAT is what Gor is, not an uneducated, mindless drone who does everything their Master says like a two braincelled pet.
A slave and a master are an equal partnership in loyalty, respect, and hard work. Woman may be below man in Gor, but she is by no means WORTH less than him. By no means.
Which gets me to another point, in this tangent of mine; SL is the worst possible place to base any real knowledge of Gor off of, considering that more than 80% of it is BDSM and D/S people gone array, who want an excuse and a fun world to fuck around in. They’re not by ANY means actual Goreans, or they wouldn’t do half the shit that they do. Anyone who really believes in the world or rules of Gor has a straight head, and understands that the sexuality of it is barely the main thing to focus on in the first place; the learning, teaching, growing, providing, being provided for, and doing is what it’s about. It’s not about dominating a woman and turning her into a beast; it’s about helping her to learn about herself, and about man, and freeing her of social bonds.
Digression here; speaking of which, SOCIETY is the biggest brainwash of all, what with how we’re taught as children that white lies will get us places, and being powerful is stepping all over others to get the biggest wallet and smallest waist. What kind of shit is THAT? If you stopped and looked at the world around you, INCLUDING religious groups, you’d realize that you can compare almost ANYTHING to Hitler at this point (you should be glad I’m baring touching on your comparison to that yet, by the way), what with how everything is geared toward being THE BEST!!1oeoen!! in the eyes of others.
Back to the point; offline Gor and SL Gor are two very different worlds. Of COURSE there are sane, educated, intelligent people on SL (IE myself and my girl), but you obviously have not come in contact with them, or have, and are a jealous little creature. The rest, however, are more than likely CHILDREN playing out some sick fantasy that should be in a BDSM club, or sick minded adults who crave control. It’s not very hard to pick out the smart ones from the idiots; the shit you’re talking about would be someone who is far more geared toward BDSM.
Why do I say so? Because in no way does GOR teach you to monitor and nitpick your girl 24/7 like she’s under a microscope, blocking her IMs or saying she can’t speak for herself, or has to speak in third person. Those sorts of things, blocking her IMs or speaking for her, are PUNISHMENTS when she does something wrong, as anyone would discipline another who is being taught; TEACHERS discipline students all the time, don’t they? Regardless the age or gender. So don’t even bother to tell me that it’s wrong to punish someone when you’re TEACHING them. Gor Master = teaching, not controlling. Gor in no way says that she should be an idiot and speak in third person and have no education; WHAT real master in their right mind would want an IDIOT by his side? The slaves spoke first person in the books, by the way, and the third person is used as it’s used in REALITY, for other means or reasons; the people who use it constantly and say that’s how it is in the books are obvious IDIOTS. And sex, fucking around in public and only screwing, is by far NOT how it is. Sexuality is a part of it all, and to be had and to give and to explore, but it’s a PRIVATE matter, beyond the look of a slave, who, really, if a girl wants to show some skin, what’s new about that? The view of a woman showing her body is so fucked up and taboo in America, it’s insane.
But in SL, all these things are done, and shown, and taken as what Gor is. It. Is. Not what. Gor. Is. How many people have to rebut you for you to even SLIGHTLY get it? How many people have to tell you to READ THE BOOKS, or hey, coming from someone who hasn’t done that much reading, USE YOUR BRAIN to figure out what is meant by it, instead of believing a group in a role play game.
WHICH brings me to my biggest point. WHAT THE FUCK are you smoking to judge something like GOR by ROLE PLAY? Role play is by far the worst area to judge anything on; if you want to judge how ROLE PLAYED Goreans are, by all means, go for it, and say this shit, since it’s predominately true, but to say ALL GORs, lifestylers included, do these things and act this way and believe these things, and are a cult, is the most ridiculous and ignorant thing I have ever seen, based solely on the fact that role play is widely known to be fucked up in general. Furries, anyone? WoW or maybe AOL? Come the fuck on, use your head. If you SERIOUSLY think all Gor is like role play, you are by far the biggest fool I have ever come across. Oh, and? As for outsiders, I think you may need to shove your foot INTO your ass, considering almost every Gor SIM has an OOC badge for people to evaluate or watch RP in progress. YES, that is SO banning people, isn’t it? That is the EPITOME of shunning newcomers, as is passing on information to them for THEM to decide if they want to join or not.
HELLO, AGAIN WITH THE WILLING PARTICIPANTS, NOT BRAINWASHED SCIENTOLOGISTS.
And honestly, even if you are comparing RP Gor to HITLER, you’re still, to be crude, a fucking moron. HITLER? Please. There’s all these quotes and comparisons, and yet you could take a multitude of books, fiction and autobiographical, and compare them to passages from Mien Kopf; it’s VERY easy to do something like that, to spin something your way, when you’re that hell bent on disliking something.
When you get down to it, however, I still DON’T see how Gor is at all like Nazism, or Hitler himself. The man was a cruel, hate filled bigot, an ignorant angry little man taking out his hate for himself and his heritage on the world; Nazism was fueled by others who agreed with him, and took it even further. HOW is Gor like Nazism? NO ONE pushes it on anyone else, NO ONE is MADE to do anything they want to; THEY DECIDE TO, NO one is forced by any means in REALITY and even in SL YOU CAN TURN IT OFF IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO IT, oh my god you’ll be banned or shunned DDDDDDDD: big fucking whoop. If you’re stupid enough to continue to involve yourself when you don’t like it, you deserve to be miserable.
Gor is NOT a hate mongering group that is bigoted toward non-Gorean people, and most importantly toward women. Do you so easily forget about FREE women? About MALE slaves? About panthers? Or hey, outlaws, who are mixtures of slave and free? PLEASE, your ignorance is so astounding it’s painful and irritating like a stink bug shoved up one’s nose.
You ignore so much, you focus on so little, and have such a warped stance on it all. You’re sickening, to be quite blunt, because you’re one of the biggest things wrong with this world; a judgmental nitwit, without a concept of what she’s talking about.
P.S. – As for people who say they’re lifestylers and yet commit criminal acts, refuse to let their girls talk to others, or refuse to let their girls talk to ‘gamers’ on SL? They’re not ACTUAL lifestylers either; they need serious help. ANYONE who does ANYTHING you’ve listed for real, and takes it to that level, should not be considered Gor, period, whether it’s online or off. Because that’s just being one sick, fucked up fuck. Who, by the way, are in ALL religions and ALL beliefs and ALL games. Because, face it, the world is full of nutjobs and zealots; again, look at Mormonism, or hell, Catholocism and their rituals and restrictions. Look at ANY religion, and THAT would fit into your rant even more fittingly than Gor, which, by the way, is not a religion, and yet you like to box it up like one. Sure, maybe some people act like it is, but again, they’re the nutters. There are plenty of sane, intelligent, gift people who agree with and will practice Gor who are looking at you as if you just sprouted four heads and spewed bullshit. Oh wait, you did.
P.P.S. – From the mouth of my girl, ‘Though I think gorean slave girls may be more animalistic naturally than people think. I personally enjoy being owned and reminded I’m owned and property. I like it, spiritually and psychologically and sexually But- sexually is actually last on the list. It’s only a plus. We DESIRE to be owned, this is a freedom to us. At least from my personal experience and knowledge. No one told me I wanted to be a slave. I told me.’ And to touch on her, no pun intended, I have not in my years of knowing her EVER seen her as confident, self assured, happy, and fulfilled as I do now. Neither of us spoke about our beliefs before recently, and since then, our relationship has been more full of life than ever before, hers and mine both. We’re relatively new to it all, and though SL has made us WTF at times, there are people who are like us, who are sane, and do it in real life, and bring THEIR beliefs and Gor’s beliefs, and reality, and it works out wonderfully. End of story.
P.P.P.S. – Something dawned on me; you’re not only ignorant, but an absolutely imbecile to base your experience in ONE SIM with ONE idiot master and his cohorts as what GOR is about. READ the books, woman. Also, if someone doesn’t LIKE what is going on as a slave on an… ONLINE ROLEPLAY GAME, uhm, do you know what your mouse does? You can move it. You can even move it to the X in the corner, or the ‘quit’ option, and sign off. And then go rant to your friends about the fucked up experience you had. As I said before, ANYONE who is stupid enough to hang around when they don’t agree with it, ESPECIALLY ONLINE, deserves to be miserable for being so fucking DUMB. God, that’s moronic.
Okay another addition, as I should have more thoroughly read your SECOND spewing of bullshit, which is worse than the first by far.
Any LIFESTYLER who lives by Gor’s beliefs and has a BRAIN will not commit murder, or go against the law. Hell, they won’t even judge their friends or their family or someone who looks upon them as being below them or bad. WHY should they? Live and let live, for Chrissake. What is so hard about that concept, seriously? No sane person will shun someone else because they do or don’t believe something; they’ll live with it, and go on with life. All of my friends, besides my girl, are not into Gor, and yet we’re INCREDIBLY close knit, regardless. They find it interesting what we believe in, and RESPECT US, and we, in turn, respect THEM, and that’s… that. You’re so ignorant and foul to box EVERYONE into the same box because of SOME people, who, AGAIN, I stress this, HAVE ISSUES.
Like religious zealots; they’d do the same damn thing if they were Christian, or Mormon, or Wiccan, or Catholic, or hell, NOT religious, and instead, BDSM, or D/S. That is NOT NORMAL.
Then again, I could be against the grain, and see in Gor something that others don’t; maybe I see into this fictional writings a part of my own beliefs and wants since I was a child, and since I’m inclined to be sane, I do it healthily. As do others I know. But regardless, to caste everyone who reads the novels and feels a twinge in them or wants to live part way like is written, is ridiculous.
One last thing, before I actually stop; lifestylers who are like me, don’t treat the book as a to-do list, that has to be followed word for word and does no wrong; there is ‘wrong’ or things not agreed with. It’s instead an idea, to grow from and meld into one’s own beliefs.
And with that said, toodles.
OH I LIED, one more thing, about the aspect of children; what, pray tell, is wrong about a child being aware of OTHER cultures/lifestyles? GOR IS NOT ABOUT SEX. Parents are not going to fuck in front of their children, and if they do, that’s THAT parents fault, not all. I think it’s wrong how children are kept in the dark about adult issues; how does that prepare them for teenagedom and adulthood? It leaves them in the situation of having to find out for themselves in UNHEALTHY ways through others; IE violence, early pregnancy, bullying or being bullied, ignorance and so forth. They SHOULD learn at a young age about many things, not just what their parents do or believe, but the world around them. PERIOD. And as for defending oneself, if someone hits you, you damn well have the right to hit them back, and I know NON Gor parents who teach that. Because it MAKES SENSE.
Okay, done now.
anon
Mar 15th, 2008
Congratulations, you wrote a ten paragraph essay as a rebuttal to a series of comments ranging from three months to a year old.
>GOR IS NOT ABOUT SEX
Yeah, that’s what the furries said and everyone know they’re full of shit. Might wanna try another line of argument there.
Takashi
Mar 15th, 2008
Point being? It’s still here to be read, still BEING read; opinions don’t lose validation over time. D:
Daemon Nikitin
Apr 20th, 2008
This entire content is patently ridiculous from both sides of the argument fully. To characterize a role play choice in a digital world as some sort of ripe recruiting ground for Gor is akin to the same kind of blind ignorance that spawned McCarthyism in the US. Yes, some people may become interested in the ideas and transfer those to the real world most probably don’t. Those who do would simply be ‘choosing’ to do so thus negating the whole idea of this being some ridiculous brainwashing attempt. What you have here is basically a few xenophobes who see something they don’t understand and fear it.
As to the idea that Gor is not about sex? What a farce. In what reality do you people live in where BDSM is not a life style choice that is based sex? Its about control yes but ultimately it starts in the bedroom. There is a strong reason why BDSM figured largely in many online dating services. It certainly isn’t because fulfills some sort of existing moral code. One only has to look into the Gor sims or Norman’s novels to understand that. Why do you suppose that the ‘kajira’ wear basically nothing where the men are dressed in clothing that highlights a misaligned physique. Gor is simply an extension to the kind of men who find rubber ballsacs on the back of pickup trucks amusing.
As to the specifics of the ‘article’ itself. This is nothing more than a blighted op-ed piece by someone without the journalistic integrity to a little research beyond a few quotes that probably came from the Cult Statistical Manual. Where are the quotations from the opposition? Where are the case studies done? The writer later asks if someone will ‘teleport out or just leave?’ The question is why would they? Do the Vampire Hunters in COLA when set upon by a gang of slavering Nosferatu simply teleport out because they are rent asunder? No, its a game. There is no such thing as Gor and there is no such thing as a Vampire.
The Vampire idea bears some remarkable similarity. There are thousands of Live Action Roleplayers cavorting around city parks during the weekend in bad vintage clothing, heavy pancake makeup, and manic panic hair dye. Are they a cult? Certainly they, and Gor seem pretty silly to the outside observer but no one seems to be having a ‘free the ghouls’ campaign. Ghouls, btw, are typically defined as humans who have been given vampiric blood to bind them totally to their vampiric masters. Think Renfeld from Bram Stoker’s Dracula.
So note cards and tours of Gorean Sims aside some of you are lending as much value to some of the worst sci-fi/fantasy books ever written. It also just goes to prove that SL is still full of nothing more than the most amateurish ‘journalists’ I’ve ever encountered.
dannyboy
May 25th, 2008
i want to get on second life because my friends are on. please can you tell me what is URL mean please
Chloe Thirdborn
Apr 7th, 2010
I just recently read your article and felt as though I had a right to comment on it. SL Gor, is split amongst people who have read the books, and those who ascertain their info out of notecards. A quote can be taken out of context no matter what the book is. I have only read three of the John Norman books, I recommend that everyone who wants to rp in Gor, to do so.
I agree that many BDSM’ers do gravitate towards Gor, often they call themselves Life Stylers, etc. I hate to sound culturally insensitive, but personally i think Life Stylers, should leave their Life Style out of Gor, and just focus on playing in Gor. There really weren’t that many slaves in Gor, and if you read many of the books, you will see the behavior between Master’s and slaves in Gor, was far different than in SL. I think in SL there is a masochistic bent that is not “Gorean” just people bullying other people. If you are rp’ing a slave role…read the books. You ARE not a bdsm slave. You are playing a character, and if you are on a sim where people act this way, then leave. I think it takes a lot of fun…this bdsm philosophy out of actual Gor. Gor is an adventure, romance, fighting…Not Master/Slave relationships only.
If you don’t want to RP get the fuck out…SL Gor is not RL and you make rp shitty for the rest of us.