Protesters Demand LL Send Le Pen’s People to M-rated Sims

by Pixeleen Mistral on 12/01/07 at 5:45 pm

Pro/Anti Le Pen groups side by side in Matrix Mall

by Pixeleen Mistral, National Affairs desk

FN security is out in force

In a press release today, the SL Left Unity group blasted the Front National party in Second Life as a fascist/racist organization and set the scene for ongoing confrontations by buying land next to the FN office in the Matrix Mall – while staging protests outside the pro-Le Pen FN group’s headquarters in the metaverse.

According to the press release, not only are the words growing heated, the scene is becoming more violent as protesters complain of being shot by FN security – and this seemed to be what I was witnessing on my visit.

there goes the neighborhood

While at the Matrix Mall in Porcupine this afternoon, I saw crowds of pro and anti-FN avatars milling about with some avatar’s weapon shields engaging occasionally. I also noticed what seemed to be a pattern of anti-FN avatars suddenly flying into the air – evidently a low-intensity push weapon skirmish was being fought – at the same time political positions were being argued in french. Given the rhetoric of the groups involved, the conflict I witnessed was not surprising.

The SLLU has demanded that Linden Lab ban Le Pen’s supporters from PG-rated land as a “race hate group who are masquerading as a political party”. According to the press release, London based SLLU member HiggleDpiggle Snoats said, “Although in the interests of free speech I question the usefulness of an outright ban, I feel it is completely inappropriate for a known racist group to be operating within a PG sim”.

carry a “Ban the FN Out of SL” sign and maybe get shot

In any case, it appears that for politics, weapons, and francophones the place to be today is the Matrix Mall in Porcupine. I left wondering how long until the abuse reports start flying and how Linden Lab envisions resolving these sorts of issues going forward as more real life political disputes migrate in-world.


39 Responses to “Protesters Demand LL Send Le Pen’s People to M-rated Sims”

  1. Artemis Fate

    Jan 12th, 2007

    Evidently in the future our political skirmishes will be fought with push weapons and dancing pantless men.

  2. Redaktisto Noble

    Jan 13th, 2007

    The protest is a mess, and as I observed people visiting the site yesterday, most people who didn’t know why they were protesting were still confused by the time they left. While the SL Left Unity group seems to have a plausible charge of FN group members using racist language and possibly weapons on the PG sim where they are located, their inability to communicate with regular residents and their use of empty words like “fascists” make this protest one of the saddest and least organized I’ve seen in SL. It’s too bad, because this whole thing could be a great study of free speech in SL.

  3. Prokofy Neva

    Jan 13th, 2007

    Hasn’t anybody been able to find some object or link at the Le Pen site that could be used to file an abuse report regarding hate speech?

    The PG thing seems lame to me. Just because something has nationalistic and hateful speech doesn’t mean that it is somehow going to be “better off” in M. It is just as objectionable in M. PG isn’t a concept about racism; it’s a concept about sex and violence.

    Like a lot of efforts to fight objectionable material in SL, this one may be doomed to getting hoisted by its own petard by having the loopy literalist Lindens ban them or discipline them for routine things like object-pushing from a parcel purchased next door, or shooting. That’s the irony, the people fighting there will get banned themselves for griefing this party that by all accounts does RL griefing.

    Yes, you get to see what kind of society our Linden gods have made for us by abandoning us to our fate which will involve endless wars and rumours of wars and skirmishings among petty fiefdoms of this or that objectionable ideology using this or that objectionable means of fighting.

  4. Artemis Fate

    Jan 13th, 2007

    “Hasn’t anybody been able to find some object or link at the Le Pen site that could be used to file an abuse report regarding hate speech?”

    Couldn’t use something from a 3rd party site against someone inworld

    “The PG thing seems lame to me. Just because something has nationalistic and hateful speech doesn’t mean that it is somehow going to be “better off” in M. It is just as objectionable in M. PG isn’t a concept about racism; it’s a concept about sex and violence.”

    I think it’s just because they knew from the start they wouldn’t get LePen banned, so they just were trying to get any official means of saying that they are in the right with the Lindens.

  5. Inigo Chamerberlin

    Jan 13th, 2007

    Frenchmen shooting back! What IS the world coming to? :-)

  6. higgleDpiggle Snoats

    Jan 13th, 2007

    Thank you Pixeleen for covering this story and bringing it to wider attention. The comments and criticisms are also particularly welcome. Redakisto, since you are now a member of Second Life Left Unity, your input as to how the group could tackle similar future issues inworld would be greatly appreciated. The protests may have been far from perfect, with hindsight, but as both Artemis and Prokofy have insightfully perceived, (albeit from differing angles) we are necessarily operating within limited Linden-defined parameters. At present the only viable way to signal opposition is to call for this group to be moved to a Mature sim, given that we feel their actions (as seen towards protestors) and beliefs represent a form of violence within Linden Labs own definitions of what is appropriate within areas of Second Life. Whether Linden Labs or the community at large will agree remains to be seen – but we certainly believe it was necessary to highlight this issue in order for it to receive wider consideration and discussion.”

  7. Redaktisto Noble

    Jan 13th, 2007

    To clarify for other readers, I joined the group in order to find people to interview, and left the group afterwards. Based on what I experienced, the group’s founder is not someone I would want my reputation associated with, though some of the group members like higgleDpiggle were much more open and friendly. But as for input on tackling similar future issues, since you asked, I would suggest finding ways to make it clear to people observing what exactly you are protesting and why, and would suggest you try to engage those you are protesting in dialogue, which they have been more than willing to do. Also, although you consider yourself a “collective,” you should not hide behind the group instead of taking positive steps forward in your protest, such as when the group’s founder backed out of talking with the leader of FN’s SL branch because he “wasn’t French” and “couldn’t speak for the group.”

  8. higgleDpiggle Snoats

    Jan 13th, 2007

    Well, as a journalistic practice, i find that questionable, Redikisto. It was not necessary for you to join the group unless you had the intention of participating – the only advantage for you would have been to have access to group IMs. As for your impression of the group’s founder – since he made it clear that he was not able to speak for the group alone, it is to me, at the very least, understandable that he was less than happy about being teleported by you to a location where the leader of the FN in SL also coincidentally ‘happened’ to be, without his prior knowledge. We are by no means opposed to dialogue, neither do we hide behind the collective – but we also attempt to be courteous in not misrepresenting the group as a whole, which is exactly what our founder’s concern was at the time you proposed a meeting with the FN’s leader at your own convenience, and also apparently attempted to orchestrate such a meeting against his will at that time. We make the greatest efforts to operate on a consultation and consensus basis wherever possible. Whilst i take on board your criticisms, i also do not believe you conducted yourself in an entirely exemplary manner in this instance.

  9. Redaktisto Noble

    Jan 13th, 2007

    As someone who has seen the entire transcript of the chat, higgle, I have to think you’re purposely misrepresenting the situation. As I said, I did join the group solely to find people to interview, and left the group afterwards. The list of group members was not public, so joining gave me access to a list of members, group IM which I used, and a list of who was online at the time. I also did not try to orchestrate any meeting against his will or as a surprise. I made it clear what I was inviting him to, told him that after he arrived I would invite the leader of the FN, and when he accepted my teleport request I did exactly what I said I would do. If he didn’t want to take part, why did HE teleport to MY location, far from the scene? I even invited him to bring along a friend from the group since he raised concerns that he wasn’t French, and he thought I should invite someone who had been effected directly by the FN in France. This was all very clear from the transcript which you read, and if he gives permission I will willingly release it to the public for scrutiny as well. I was not asking him to speak on behalf of the group, but merely to speak. Since he is someone who wrote and sent out a press release about the protest, and has spent hours protesting outside the FN office, I wrongly assumed he had something to say about the very thing he was protesting about, to the very person he was protesting. As to questioning the ethics of joining the group for the purpose which I stated, I would be interested in hearing others’ opinions on that matter. I consider it the equivalent of attending a group meeting to get a story, or subscribing to a group’s newsletter to keep up-to-date on their happenings. I do not consider it the equivalent of endorsing the group.

  10. higgleDpiggle Snoats

    Jan 13th, 2007

    Yes, i read the transcript of your conversation, and i noted that no consent was given for the meeting to take place. Since this was the case, i do not find it surprising that our group founder was wary of you from then on. There is no willful misrepresentation on my part I can assure you.

  11. Plot Tracer

    Jan 13th, 2007

    Press releases of the SLLU may be released in my name, but are collectively written, as the pr below was on 12th Jan 2007.

    Languages: French; Spanish; English and Italian

    Demande d’exclusion du Front National de SL.

    Le groupe SL Left Unity condamne les actions du parti français fascite,
    le Front National,pour ses actes contre les manifestants pacifiques,
    devant ses bureaux, sur un sim PG.

    Ce groupe d’extrême droite haineux entache la réputation de SL, et a
    gravement abîmé la perception que l’on pouvait avoir de bien des travaux
    présents aux alentours, dans le Matrix Mall.

    Le SLLU a acquis le terrain voisin du siège du SL FN, et compte y
    organiser des manifestations jusqu’à ce que le FN se retire des lieux ou
    en soit expulsé. Là ou s’installe le fascisme, nous pouvons avoir la
    certitude qu’il ne cessera de mentir et de chercher à corrompre les
    individus décents.

    Le groupe SL Left Unity en appelle à Linden pour lconstater, tirer les
    conclusions qui s’imposent , et libérer le monde de SL de ce groupe de
    haine raciale, dissimulé sous un parti politique.

    Citoyenne française et membre du SLLU, Laura Gagliano, alis Paty dans la
    réalité, déclare : » Il est déjà sufisamment pénible de subir leurs
    discours et leurs actions de rues en France, il est impensable qu’ils
    s’introduisent dans l’univers ludique de Second Life. »

    Basée à Londres, HiggleDpiggle Snoats nous confie : » Beaucoup de gens
    très jeunes ont accès à SL, comment expliquer à leurs parents que
    l’environnement n’est pas fiable, malgré la possibilité de contrôler les
    zones qui leur sont accessibles ? »

    Commentant les évènements et la réaction des membres du groupe FN face
    aux manifestations, Mark Lock, alias Marco, en Italie, dit : « La seule
    chose que j’ai constaté hier, c’est que nou nous sommes littéralement
    fait tirer dessus et bombarder par la sécurité du FN et leurs
    sympathisants, pour avoir simplement exercé notre droit à la parole et
    notre liberté d’expression ».

    Le groupe SL Left Unity a été initié par des membres du Parti Socialiste
    Ecossais en Novembre 2006. Sous leur impulsion, est né un groupe
    virtuel, incluant des personnes de toutes nationalités et d’horizons
    très divers, ayant un intérêt commun pour la justice sociale, et une
    vision critique d’un monde néo conservateur et du système capitaliste.

    Plot Tracer, SLLU


    Neil Sott, SSP

    Ban the Front National from SL PG zones

    The SL Left Unity group condemns the actions of the French fascist party, Front National for their actions against protesting AV’s outside their offices in a PG sim.

    This hate filled group of right wing racist nationalists have brought disrepute to SL and have damaged the livelihoods of many working av’s in the PG rated Matrix Mall.

    The SLLU have acquired land next to the FN office and will be manning a protest there until FN go or are ejected. Where-ever fascists are we will ensure they get no peace to corrupt and lie to decent people.

    The SL Left Unity group call on the Linden’s to see sense and ban this race hate group who are masquerading as a political party, from SL PG zones.

    French citizen, and SLLU member Laura, AKA Paty said, “It is bad enough that these people cause trouble on the streets of France never mind the happy gaming world of Second Life.”

    London based SLLU member HiggleDpiggle Snoats said, “Although in the interests of free speech I question the usefulness of an outright ban, I feel it is completely inappropriate for a known racist group to be operating within a PG sim”

    Commenting on the FN users reaction to the protesters, Mark Lock, AKA Marco, from Italy, said, “What I saw yesterday was that we were shot by their security for exercising our right to free speech.”

    San Francisco based solidad Sugarbeet said, “The presence of a fascist organization in SL is an outrage. SL should be about building bonds, not breaking them.”

    A SLLU spokesperson said, “the whole idea of a ‘Race Hate’ group is in direct violation of LL’s own terms of service, and if the rules are being read to say they aren’t in violation, then Lindens need to look at the rules again. \

    We would urge the Lindens to strongly to consider whether they want to allow this group to be represented within SL. This, of course, would not happen if SL was fully democratic.”

    The SL Left Unity group was set up by members of the Scottish Socialist Party in November 2006. It has outgrown it’s original kernel of SSP members into a world wide left unity group comprising of people from many countries and all walks of life who are interested in social justice and whom are critical of the current world wide neo-conservative capitalist system.

    Plot Tracer, SLLU

    Neil Scott, SSP

    Bannare FRONT NATIONAL da SL

    il gruppo “SL LEFT UNITY” condanna le azioni del partito fascista francere,
    FRONT NATIONAL per le sue azioni contro la protesta degli avatar di fronte ai suoi uffici in un sim PG.

    i membri di questo gruppo colmo di odio dell’estrema destra nazionalista ha portato distruzione a SL ed ha danneggiato gli altri avatar che lavornano nel centro commerciale Matrix.

    La SLLU ha comprato del terreno vicino agli uffici del FN , il che vuol dire una protesta che durerà fino a che IL FN se ne andrà o verrà cacciato. Ovunque i fascisti sono ci assicureremo che non possano corrompere e mentire alla gente.

    La SL LEFT UNITY chiede ai Linden di avere buon senso e di bannare da SL questi gruppi di razzisti che si stanno mascherando da partito politico.
    Una cittadina francese, e membro dell’SLLU Laura, AKA Party dice, ” è amareggiante che questi gruppi di persone causino problemi sulle strade francesi e che non badino al mondo pacifico e giocoso di Second Life”.

    HiggleDpiggle Snoats di londra dice “molti giovani hanno accesso a SL e quando anche i controlli su PG/MATURE sono utilizzati male, cosa possono chiedersi i loro genitori, è questo ambiente, sicuro per i loro bambini?”

    Commentando sulle reazioni dei membri dell’FN contro i manifestanti, Mark Lock, AKA Marco dall’Italia dice, “Quello che ho visto ieri è stato che la loro Sicurezza ci ha sparato mentre noi esercitavamo il nostro diritto alla libertà di parola”.

    Solidad Sugarbeet dice, “La presenza di un organizazione fascista in SL è un oltraggio. SL dovrebbe essere fatto per costruire legami, non distruggerle”.

    Un portavoce della SLLU dice, “l’idea di un groppo dedito all’”odio raziale” è in diretta violazione dei termini di utilizzo propri dei Linden, e se ad una sua lettura e dicono che cono sono in violazionione, allora i Linden avrebbero bisogno di leggerle di nuovo.
    Noi chiediamo urgentemente ai Linden di considerare se vogliono che questo gruppo sia rappresentato in SL. Questo ovviamente, non succederebbe se SL fosse totalmente democratica”.

    il gruppo SL LEFT UNITY è stato creato da membri del Partito Socialista Scozzese nel novembre 2006. E’ cresciuto a dismisura dal numero originale dei membri del SSP tanto da diventare un partito internazionale unitario della sinistra comprendente gente da molti paesi e di ogni stile di vita i quali sono interessati alla giustizia sociale ed i quali criticano il sistema capitalista neoconservatore internazionale.

    Plot Tracer, SLLU


    Neil Scott, SSP

    Pedido de exclusion del « Front National « de SL.

    El grupo SL Left Unity condena las acciones del partido frances
    fascista, el Front National (Frente Nacional), por sus actos contra los
    manifestantes pacificos, delante su sede en SL, sobre un SIM PG.

    Este grupo de extrema derecha y de odio ensucia la reputacion de SL, y
    degrada la percepcion que podemos tener de las actividades, negocios y
    trabajos hechos en su entorno, en el Matrix Mall.

    El SLLU ha comprado el terreno vecino de la sede del SL FN, y tiene la
    intencion de organisar acciones alli, hasta que el FN se retire del
    local, o sea expulsado.
    Donde se instala el fascismo, podemos tener la certeza que no dejara de
    mentir y buscar la corrupcion de individuos decentes.

    El grupo SL Left Unity hace un llamado a Linden para que constate, tire
    las conclusiones que se imponen, y libere el mundo SL de este grupo de
    odio racial, disfrazado en partido politico.

    Ciudadane francesa y miembro del SLLU, Laura Gagliano, alias Paty en la
    realidad, declara : « Ya es suficientemente dificil de aguantar estos
    discursos y las acciones de calle afiliadas en las calles de Francia, es
    impensable que se introduzcan en el universo ludico de Second Life ».

    Basada en Londres, HiggleDpiggle Snoats nos confia : « Mucha gente muy
    joven tiene acceso a SL, como explicar a sus padres que el entorno no es
    de confianza, a pesar de la posibilidad las zonas de acceso ?! »

    Comentando los eventos y la reaccion de los miembros del grupo SL FN
    frente a las manifestaciones, Mark Lock, alias Marco, de Italia, dice :
    » La unica cosa que pude constatar ayer, es que fuimos literalmente
    agredidos a tiros y bombardeados, por el simple hecho de haber usado
    nuestro derecho a la palabra, y nuestra libertad de expresion ».

    El grupo SL Left Unity fue iniciado por miembros de Partido Socialista
    Escoces en noviembre 2006.
    Bajo su impulsion, nacio un grupo virtual, incluyendo personas de todas
    nacionalidades y de horizontes muy diversos, que tienen un interes comun
    por la justicia social, y una vision critica de un mundo neo conservador
    y del sistema capitalista.

    Plot Tracer, SSLU
    Neil Scott, SSP

  12. Quango the Brave

    Jan 13th, 2007

    Ugh. Personally I dont think these assholes should be in the M one either.

    But this raises worrysome questions about the level of supervision in the PG. It is *abhorent* that neo-nazis should be allowed to recruit children in what is supposed to be a ‘safe’ space.

    I just dont get it. Sex is bad. Holocaust denial and racist violence good?

    Whacky whacky morals here folks.

  13. Artemis Fate

    Jan 14th, 2007

    “It is *abhorent* that neo-nazis should be allowed to recruit children in what is supposed to be a ‘safe’ space.”

    What children? The ageplayers? There’s not supposed to be any children on the main grid.

  14. humanoid

    Jan 14th, 2007

    It’s comforting to see the leftist dregs crawl out from under their rocks now and then to reaffirm their belief that free speech is a right reserved for everyone but those who offend them. It is a constant in the universe, like nightfall, sunrise, and venereal diseases.

  15. hotlips Tornado

    Jan 14th, 2007

    Well they’ve gone now anyway.

    I wonder if they decided to throw in the towel, or were they removed?

  16. Alfhild Briers

    Jan 14th, 2007

    I’m part of a group that owns land in Porcupine across the street from this crap (we have an autism museum and other resources for autistic people), and as far as we can tell, they’ve left, but only for another sim. Their land is up for sale and there’s a casino on top of it.

    As a side note, we’ve been part of the ongoing protests, because we know perfectly well what the Front National is, and we don’t want it in our neighborhood. Even before they bought land there, some of them were hanging out on our property harassing us on a regular basis and ended up needing to be banned (and yeah, of course we reported it).

  17. Muskie Marquette

    Jan 14th, 2007

    Describing this group as fascist is not throwing around empty words: they really are a European fascist party. In 2004, their leader managed to come in second in the first round of voting for the French presidency, shocking everyone in the mainstream. At that point, EVERY party, left, right, and center, endorsed the FN’s socialist opponent, Jacques Chirac (who won with 80% of the vote). Now ask yourself: why would French *conservatives* be lining up to support a socialist for president if it weren’t that the FN is a dangerous fascist movement? The FN is not just extremist, it has been connected with political and racially-motivated *murder* in France. It’s unfortunate that not enough Americans and other non-continental European residents pay attention to European politics: the FN is a truly dangerous organization.

  18. Plot Tracer

    Jan 15th, 2007

    The FN, quite rightly Muskie, are a dangerous crowd – LePenn speaks at BNP meetings and conferences – and yes, his party has been part of racial attacks in France.

    Well done to all of he protesters who conducted themselves very well during the gun attacks and other grief sent their way by this abnoxious group. They did move off Porcupine and out of Matrix Mall – only to deposit themselves in a residential area in Axel. Axel residents should complain to the Lindens.

    The protest against fascism – and fascism deemed to be “PG” – goes on. In my book, fascism is neither “PG” nor mature.

  19. Lewis Nerd

    Jan 16th, 2007

    I just wandered over, and can’t understand a word of what’s going on. Can’t they just speak English?

    There’s a nice group in the HQ, and a group of protesters next door. Somewhat surreal.


  20. hotlips Tornado

    Jan 16th, 2007

    The protesters are next door because they’re all getting banned from the land. I guess the obvious question the National Front will be asking, “what happens when the maximum of 300 banned avatars is reached?”. They won’t be able to do much in the way of spreading the word if they have to restrict the parcel to invite only.

  21. Wolfram Hayek

    Jan 16th, 2007

    Hello all ,

    There would be no problems at all if everybody would agree to debate in a civil manner. The problem clearly comes from the antis, not from the FNSL and this fact is obvious to all observers.

    Anybody present in the office at anytime could witness the exemplary behaviour of FNSL members, which contrasts with the protesters’ attitude, who usually rivalize in vulgarity, obscenity and act most often in complete violation of the Terms of Service.

    The FN is a legitmiate political party that has the confidence of an ever-increasing proportion of the French voters, that has representatives in the European Union Parliament and whose candidate was present at the second round of the French
    presidential elections in 2002 – and will probably be there again this year.

    It’s Second Life branch, the FNSL has always scrupulously respected the SL golden rules as well as the highest level of courtesy towards all visitors and residents, has enjoyed so far excellent relations with all owners and businesses around and contributed to
    the development of the SL community.

    Needless to say, there has never been any racist speech nor use of weapons from FNSl members. Not only racist, but also hateful, vulgar or bbscene language as well as the holding or use of weapons is strictly forbidden on FNSL land. We also do our best to enforce those rules on the neighbouring lands when possible.

    Defamation is a traditional method of our antis but we do regret that the SL Herald is always too happy to relay and confirm their opinions in a militant way, when not literally cheer up at the systematical violations of ToS of the antis. Again, there was never use of weapons nor racist or hateful language on our land, at least when our Security Officers were present on site. Readers are welcome to verify this fact by themselves. The FNSL exists to offer a place of meeting, fun, relaxation and debate between SL residents without any discrimination other than good and polite behaviour.

    We apologize again to residents whose expreience on our land has been troubled by the antis. We are doing our best to solve those issues.

    Yours in Second Life,
    Best regards

    Wolfram Hayek
    Front National Second Life

  22. Lewis Nerd

    Jan 16th, 2007

    “The FNSL exists to offer a place of meeting, fun, relaxation and debate between SL residents without any discrimination other than good and polite behaviour.”

    Isn’t, by definition, your group discriminatory though?


  23. hotlips Tornado

    Jan 16th, 2007

    Humm – Wolfram – you do seem to be attracting a large amount of “pros” who seem somewhat more extreme than the picture you’re trying to present here. I wonder why you’re not banning them from your land quite so enthusiastically. I find this all quite heartening – yes, you’re entitled to your views, and it’s probably wrong to try to ban you from SL, but it’s good that so many people are letting you know quite how abhorrent they find you.

    There’s a chap been wandering around there most of the day with the FNSL tag. His name ends with KKK. You sure that’s not racist? Seems deliberately provocative to me. Other supporters are wearing hitler mustaches, carrying guns, and walking into neigbouring plots and pushing people around.

    I don’t know. These FNSL, coming into the neighbourhood, pushing down house prices. They should all go home where they belong.

  24. humanoid

    Jan 16th, 2007

    “I don’t know. These FNSL, coming into the neighbourhood, pushing down house prices. They should all go home where they belong.”

    That’s a real interesting opinion, hotlips. I heard the same thing about black people where I grew up. You seem to have quite a bit in common with the KKK.

  25. hotlips Tornado

    Jan 17th, 2007

    Oh humanoid, you seem to be misunderstanding me. Maybe I should have ended my statement with one of those little winky smiley things?

    Perhaps you’re taking me a little more literally than I intended?

  26. humanoid

    Jan 17th, 2007

    It’s possible. Nobody on these blogs has much of a sense of humor.

  27. Plot Tracer

    Jan 17th, 2007

    Negotiate and talk with nazis? Perhaps you mistake me for Neville Chamberlain, Wolfy boy.

    I feel sorry for Axel residents. I can promise, them, though – my group will leave as soon as the FN takes it’s filthy lies and racism elsewhere.

    As for Wolfy’s rubbish about how wonderfully behaved his little FN fan club were, that is laughable! We were being shot etc when the reporters were interviewing us! LOL!

    I think Axel residents should be complaining heavily to the Lindens about fascism in their neighbourhood – and I will support the residents in their fight to take this from their backyard.

  28. Prokofy Neva

    Jan 17th, 2007

    Redaktiso, I can kinda-sorta buy the argument that you joined the group just temporarily to get the names and figure out who to talk to — I’ve done that, too, with stories. In SL, it can be hard to navigate otherwise.

    But I am definitely not getting this idea of having the two opposing groups “sit down together”.

    Huh? This isn’t a guitar Mass and singing Kumbayaha here. This is a party accused of advocating fascist ideology with a track record of extreme political positions in France, and then another group that is resisting them, that may or may not be violating the TOS on their way.

    Why would you be “trying to bring these people together to talk”? This isn’t a reconciliation project, it’s one group protesting against what looks like pretty objectionable stuff. And that’s ok. If the other group is following the usual cunning and clever well-honed forums regs technique of skirting the TOS, and forcing the others to break the TOS, well, we know what that’s all about, no?

    I do think we have to look starkly here at what Second Life can and can’t do. Second Life can’t — or should — be reconciling a fascist party with its opponents, or attempting to “make more moderate” what is said to be an implacable political party.

    Second Life cannot make real life better here; it can only blur distinctions made in real life for a reason. The Lindens’ TOS cannot save the world.

    The sad thing is, in Philip Lindens’ evil notion, there’s just the endless ability of fascist parties to buy islands and hide themselves or skirt the TOS as they will, but not create any real grounds for expulsion. There’s the ability of their opponents to mute, ban, ignore them. Perhaps that’s why it was once described as ending with not a bang, but a whimper.

  29. Nik Sleeper

    Jan 17th, 2007

    I think people should remember that the FN leader Le Pen has been fined $200,000 for holocaust denial. He described it as a (Translation) “minor detail” of history. Like the BNP, in the UK, the FN are a far right organisation whose ideas are based on the politics of “well directed fists and boots”. You only have to look at their behaviour on SL. They demand freedom of speech, and yet ban people with Anti FN placards. I have also reported them for abuse, and witnessed many attacks on protestors. It’s fine to demand freedom of speech, but what if that freedom leads to someone getting their face smashed in. What would you people who defend them propose we should have done with the NSDAP in Germany in the 20s? Confronted them or demanded their freedom to operate? SL is an international community with free movement.. surely no place for fascists.

  30. adolflow

    Jan 17th, 2007

    Second Life Antifa

    Second Life (segunda vida) es un mundo virtual 3D distribuido en una amplia red de servidores al que se puede a través de internet. Este programa proporciona a sus usuarios o residentes herramientas para modificar el mundo y participar en su economía v…

  31. Alfhild Briers

    Jan 17th, 2007

    Polite behavior is not at all what we experienced as their neighbors.

  32. humanoid

    Jan 18th, 2007

    Ahh, but SL is not an international community. LL is based in the USA. The half-assed European notion of free speech as a conditional privilege doesn’t apply. This sort of environment is exactly what makes SL fun. Maybe LL will expand across the globe one day and bow to the laws of Europe, China, and etc. but this hasn’t happened yet.

  33. Nik Sleeper

    Jan 18th, 2007

    No SL IS an international commumity. Anyone can join it is not restricted to Americans. The fascists harp on about free speech – but they are not interested in it. They ban anyone who enters ‘their’ land who doesn’t support them. So much for free speech. The politics of fascism are based on violence and extreme authoritarianism. Did the jews get free speech in Germany in the 1930s / 40s? Will immigrants in France get free speech if Le Pen ever came to power? Of course not. When fascists operate in RL this inevitably leads to a rise in racially aggravated crime. This is repeated in SL with pushes, abuse, grief attacks from anyone who doesnt toe the FN line. Le Pen himself has been convicted of inciting racial hatred. Do you want to let these people operate freely? Whatever next? Free speeech for child killers?

  34. Nik

    Jan 18th, 2007

    I meant… “grief attacks FOR anyone who doesn’t toe the FN line”

  35. Joshua Cohen.

    Jan 24th, 2007

    The idea or reconciling with fascists is deeply deeply offensive.

    6 million people jewish people , and possibly more, died as a DIRECT result of the Nazi party, and this was DIRECTLY supported by vichy supporters.

    Now these people , the modern day vichys, aka the “National Front” still with blood on there hands from more recent murder and mayhem want to bring there evil nonsense to SL?

    PLEASE before you suggest reconciling with the national front, be sure you can say that to a holocaust survivor without feeling shame.

  36. pitsch

    Jan 26th, 2007

    free speech and private property. in a certain us interpretation of liberarian values it is ok to shoot someone when they enter your private property. that comes from the wild west time. but where are the outlaws and indians on SL? i just see suburbia on LSD up to the horizon. the problem of banning people from private property, even flying over it is a typical suburban interpretation of “freedom”.

    in europe free speech comes with public space, and there are rules to follow in public space, you cannot just shoot arround with your gun etc. in the US the public sphere is transported into shopping malls. if you are on the street, you´re driving in your car. you even go shopping with your car (drive in)…

    an avatar is nothing but a vehicle, it´s a kind of cyber-car.

    i find it amazing how stupid people are in real life and second life.

  37. Overcast

    Jan 30th, 2007

    Trying to shut out a group or person’s right to free speech could be argued as ‘hate speech’ itself.

    But either way – there’s no grey area with free speech. One is *FREE* to speak openly or they are not.

    I could care less personally about this debate, but you can’t say ‘Ban’ them and then go on about how good ‘free speech’ is.

    Orwell called that ‘doublespeak’ – which is far from free speech.

    It’s akin to Hitler’s book burnings. No different, only the method is different, but the intent is exactly the same.

    Although, I do agree it doesn’t belong in a ‘PG’ district. But organizing groups so that people can avoid what they *personally* do not wish to hear isn’t limiting free speech. Any society must have some order. But any society that is to survive, must also allow free speech.

    Is there an issue with people understanding the meaning of the word ‘Free’? From what I see anymore, I do think that is the case. Sorry to those so woefully uneducated that even the meaning of ‘free’ escapes them.

    I don’t like the message of the KKK or the Nazi’s – but to say they cannot speak their ‘drivel’ is to act just like them.

    Are some not so solid and firm on their own beliefs that they feel like just hearing a fringe fanatic group babble on will shake their ethics? Hmm, Interesting.

    I could listen to the KKK going on all day about hate – it’s not going to change me any.

  38. josse roelands

    Jun 11th, 2007

    In morocco. Racism Exist in Morocco you can not marry with moroccan women

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