Is the SL Infringement Honeymoon Over?
by Urizenus Sklar on 05/02/07 at 10:14 am
There is a very interesting article by John Bringardner in Law.com covering a number of issues surrounding Intellectual Property in Second Life. The topics range from copybot, to Bragg vs. Linden Lab, but the issue that caught my attention was the following:
Will the same brand owners that have spent millions trying to crack down on counterfeit goods in real-world venues like China be forced to take the fight to Second Life, too? Kenyon & Kenyon’s Boyd says Second Life and other MMORPGs are enjoying a honeymoon period when it comes to IP infringement and other types of regulation. “In the next decade, these worlds will certainly garner more attention as their population grows and as the value of virtual property within the worlds increases,” he says. “That increased attention will almost certainly result in companies searching those games more diligently for infringement.”
That would certainly make for an interesting cat and mouse game.
Melissa Yeuxdoux
Feb 5th, 2007
I thought of that this weekend as I shopped at a store that featured a great many items decorated with the Playboy bunny. I have to think the crackdown is not long in coming.
Petey
Feb 5th, 2007
What a terrific article. He wrote 75% of the article I’ve been meaning to write for some time now–not only about Bragg, but about SL legal issues in general.
I’d love to see the response from the general SL population to this article.
Onder Skall
Feb 5th, 2007
Damn lawyers… They’re going to take away my Kool-Aid man av, I just know it.
Seola Sassoon
Feb 5th, 2007
I’m not entirely sure when it will happen and what will come from it. Certain logo’s are mainstays in Second Life. Just like the playboy bunny is associated with sexiness, and people love stupid humor shirts. If the tiny niche that exists to satisfy those with needs of RL clothing isn’t filled, it may bring attention to these companies and we could soon see ‘official’ playboy clothes and such.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 5th, 2007
Uri, 95 percent of this article is in fact about this:
a) whether virtual property is real
b) whether the forfeiture clause that the Lindens feel entitled to invoke (“any reason or no reason”) is legal
c) whether Bragg has a case at least to recover the property he gained lawfully in SL, although it’s clear to most people that he stole some of his property through an exploit
d) lawyers weighing in on their interpretation of what LL said
e) a very important quote from Urizenus saying that LL provoked a profound suspicion in their customer base that is not easily overcome by taking a neutral and laissez-faire attitude toward Copybot.
Only a tiny percent of this article is about the possibility of high-flying law firms swooping into SL some day and haranguing every kid who put out a Coke machine on his club. Really, we’re truly very far from that day. It might be that Coke actually lets it all alone, since it helps spread its brand name in a world where it is very hard to get mass exposure. Or they might undermine the freebie or resale market of home-made Coke product makers by awashing the world with their own stuff. We can’t know.
There has never been a single case in SL of a RL brand chasing somebody in SL and bullying them into taking down their little SL replica. Why? Because it’s not worth it, and because if those little guys stand and fight, they might be able to invoke various defenses, such as their failure to make any money from displaying the logo, or the insignificance of the eyeballs that viewed it (as if in a private home) or the failure to demonstrate any real loss to that company.
Chiefly, the threat of copyright lawsuits is something that nasty prim divas threaten other bitchy prim divas with if they don’t like them. They AR them and blow them into the Lindens for copyright infraction as a form of abuse and griefing, trying to harass and intimidate people.
The real, real issue here is whether ingame brands that are homegrown — not the Cokes or Nissans — will be able to use RL lawyers and RL law to mount serious challenges to copyright thiefs inworld, whether by Copybot or other prim divas.
This article also creates an inflated sense of the menace of the anti-copybot chatting scripts. They’ve almost all been removed. I heard one last night, and haven’t had any in weeks. People got the message that they didn’t work, and their customers and neighbours got it through to store owners that they caused more nuisance than they were worth, and chased away customers even. So I think we’re past that now.
Ultimately, the destructiveness of CopyBot and the malice with which it was deployed is a function of the Lindens own over-confident belief in their own superiority and gamegod status. They held out the promise of IP just about as long as it took to significantly populate the world with creators, programmers and designers. As soon as the sales and numbers were up, they switched to focusing soley on creating the software and getting rid of its kinks — uber alles. Copybot is a side effect of enabling libsecondlife and opensourcing. That’s all the Lindens care about now. They turn a blind eye to the problem of copyright theft and while making it nominally an offense, do nothing to really stop it. Of course, they make sure that scripts are not copyable, as they are related to the sacrosanct realm of the coders.
Panda
Feb 5th, 2007
“Of course, they make sure that scripts are not copyable, as they are related to the sacrosanct realm of the coders.”
Or, by chance, it could be that scripts are not copyable due to the fact that they are the only asset that does not need to reach the client, being completely server-side. Duh.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 5th, 2007
And, DUH, by chance, they make the system work that way. Scripts are copyable, like anything else in SL. All manner of means could be created to intervene to copy them; they are the same copyable artifacts as anything else on the Internet. Yeah, we know that the images are rendered and anything that can see them can also copy them and that your permissions over them are a thin veneer. DER.
But rather falling into the usual knee-jerking pose of the asshole coder, try using your head. The *possession* of scripts is client-side, they are in inventory, and they are copyable from inventory. Each person who makes one is capable of making them copyable — or not. Sure, it’s harder to get exploits that hack individual accounts or hack into permissions, but, nothing is impossible with the creativity of the denizesn of Second Life!
Everybody also knows that WoW and other proprietary games take measures precisely to scramble or get in the way of that rendering. Yeah, obfuscation isn’t a 100 percent solution. But just because you can’t do everything perfectly, in the hysterical orthodox manner of extremist coders, doesn’t mean you can’t make something that works *good enough*.
Panda
Feb 5th, 2007
“All manner of means could be created to intervene to copy them; they are the same copyable artifacts as anything else on the Internet.”
Except the small fact that the source never gets sent to the client. DUH. I’d like to hear your take on “all manner of means” that could be employed to copy them if you never see them. Go on, I double dare you.
“try using your head. The *possession* of scripts is client-side, they are in inventory, and they are copyable from inventory.”
Now you try using your head. What’s *possessed* in your inventory is an UUID for the ASSET of the script, NOT the script itself. If you have permissions, you get to make a copy of the ASSET ID, NOT the script. Can this be made more clear? Unless you have modify permissions, your client NEVER SEES THE SOURCE. *smacks Prok upside the head* DUH.
Last I heard WoW did not allow you to create anything original at all. The only thing you can do there is gain possession of pre-made game items created by the company running the game. Anology completely irrelevant. Next!
Prokofy Neva
Feb 5th, 2007
>Go on, I double dare you.
Copying from inventory? LAWL. This isn’t rocket science. Copying the UUID gives you the content of the script. In fact, unlike prims, scripts can even be transported out of the world of SL and sent by email across grids, i.e. from adult to teen or visa versa, and sent to other worlds.
>If you have permissions, you get to make a copy of the ASSET ID, NOT the script. Can this be made more clear?
I have to chuckle at people who have such ardent, religious faith in “permissions”. Hacking into an account’s inventory is child’s play. Hacking into a group where the inventory of a script could also be stored is also child’s play. Smacking people upside the head doesn’t change these glaring “human factors” lying wait to completely disrupt your zealous faith in the “inviolability of scripts”. I guess people used to think this about sacred texts in their day, until the printing press was born.
I guess you’re not familiar with WoW. There are illegal exploits you can purchase outside of WoW from other fans that enable you to level up faster. The mods and exploits are something that the makers of WoW are able to foil precisely because they make efforts to guard their server gates in the way LL doesn’t.
One thing is certain, discussing these issues with the aggressive-obedient hysteria and scorn that you do lets me know that you have no critical intellectual capacity, and that you and your kind among the other extremist coders are not to be trusted whatsoever with a goddamn thing, and in fact, I understand more and more why RL forces seek so aggressively to annihilate you.
humanoid
Feb 6th, 2007
There’s a hipster shop next to a bear-themed infohub that is packed to the rafters with what I assume are unlicensed tshirt designs. Maybe they have proper contracts to use all those logos, but I doubt it. I often wonder if a bored IP lawyer will teleport in one day and decide to take a swipe at the owner.
Panda
Feb 6th, 2007
“LAWL. This isn’t rocket science. Copying the UUID gives you the content of the script.”
Apparently it is closer to rocket science than your ability to understand it. It gives you the content of the script when you OPEN it, IF you have mod perms. If you don’t, then you are never sent the contents, and I’d like to hear you try to explain how it’s “child’s play” to break that.
“In fact, unlike prims, scripts can even be transported out of the world of SL and sent by email across grids, i.e. from adult to teen or visa versa, and sent to other worlds.”
Thank you for that rare insight, Captain Obvious. With mod perms, you can open a script, copy it, paste it into a script on the teen grid. DUH.
“Hacking into an account’s inventory is child’s play.”
Uh huh, I’m sure the Lindens will be contacting you any moment to ask about THAT exploit. As if it wasn’t just something you just pulled out of your ass to try to look knowlegeable.
“Smacking people upside the head doesn’t change these glaring “human factors” lying wait to completely disrupt your zealous faith in the “inviolability of scripts”.”
Again, you go on making up shit and attributing it to people you don’t like. If you weren’t aware, the permission system has been broken in the past, and people have copied scripts. Those were exploits, and they were fixed, because they CAN be fixed. Your client needing to receive a texture to wrap it around your avatard can NOT be fixed, however.
Any content is “vulnerable” to social engineering, so citing human factors for scripts is irrelevant.
“I understand more and more why RL forces seek so aggressively to annihilate you.”
“RL forces” meaning you, Prok, you want to annihilate anyone who don’t agree with your fucked up neo-commie world view.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 6th, 2007
Did you think that permissions were sacrosant in SL? That accounts can never be hacked? And that the permissions system can never be hacked? And that human error can never be at fault for accidently releasing copyable scripts? All of these and more are all factors which you just aren’t willing to concede.
Instead, like a broken record, you keep pronouncing doctrines and dogmas from your scripters’ lexicon, attempting, like a latter-day priest, to impress us with your knowledge. It’s useless. SL changes, and even these factors change. Scripts are copyable. They can be copied. The way in which they can be copied is different than textures can be copied. But they can be copied, and ported easily.
You folks know a lot about hacking into accounts. I know nothing, it’s not my area. But it’s done all the time. And one way it’s done is because people make guessable passwords or they tell them to others. This is such a big problem, the Lindens put log-on messages about it for 7 days in a row.
I am aware. All you have to do is read the forums and blogs. And that lets me know that this is as possible to happen any time or no time as the Copybot was as possible to happen any time or not time, the chances were maybe less, but the possibility is always there. The idea that exploits can always be fixed; that they CAN be fixed is the sort of brittle, orthodox thinking we’ve come to expect from screeching, zealous orthodox coders, who have no ability to think out of the box, retain any sort of Socratic inquirity or flexibility, and do nothing but recite memes all day that they’ve learned from their elders and betters.
And who says your client receiving a texture “to wrap around your avatard” (yeah, nice attitude toward people and their attitudes wrapped around THAT silly word) “can’t be fixed”? Who says? Maybe it can. Certainly with the WILL to fix it, sometimes the WAY can be found.
One thing is clear, the coding class has every reason to keep their Holy Writ from being copied, but no reason to stop the copying of people’s stuff — people for whom they have contempt. It drips from your every word.
It’s good to see this, so that people can begin to take measures now to control your viciousness and malice.
Citing “human factors” for scripts is not irrelevant; indeed, the “human factor” is the greatest factor there is. If it weren’t for this contemptible arrogance and malice that the makers of CopyBot had for other people and their stuff, CopyBot would never have happened. People who had the equivalent of CopyBot wit GLintercept were quiet about it, and didn’t disrupt the society and create a social phenomenon.
People who think that in dealing with a society made up of humans, the “human factor” is irrelevant never last long.
I personally don’t “wish to annihilate anyone who disagrees with me”. This is the typical annihilation THEY engage in by claiming that of me lol. It’s funny to watch, really. No, I’m merely commenting on the aggressiveness with which all these anti-spyware sorts of things exist to defeat all the fucktards who make viruses for sport and malicious glee. I can understand why so much time and money is spent on it. I personally just try to understand these things, since sitting at my desktop, obviously I don’t have the power to annihilate anything lol.
Once again, your responses illustrate the deep fallacies and deep flaws in thinking of the coding class.
Panda
Feb 6th, 2007
Let’s start at the top shall we.
“Did you think that permissions were sacrosant in SL? That accounts can never be hacked? And that the permissions system can never be hacked? And that human error can never be at fault for accidently releasing copyable scripts? All of these and more are all factors which you just aren’t willing to concede.”
If you read my post, you’ll perhaps comprehend that that’s exactly the opposite of what I wrote. I said the permissions HAD been broken. What I also said is that if someone hacks into your account (human factor), everything is vulnerable, textures, scripts, animations, EVERYTHING. So singling out scripts and yelling “see, see it’s vulnerable!” is irrelevant. THAT is your failure to comprehend basic written english. So no, there’s nothing here to concede, you just agreed to what I wrote.
Blah blah blah rant rant “Scripts are copyable. They can be copied. The way in which they can be copied is different than textures can be copied. But they can be copied, and ported easily.”
If you have permissions to edit them, yes. Which is what has been said all along. DUH.
“You folks know a lot about hacking into accounts.”
Actually I don’t.
“I know nothing, it’s not my area.”
Oh?
“And one way it’s done is because people make guessable passwords or they tell them to others.”
“The idea that exploits can always be fixed; that they CAN be fixed is the sort of brittle, orthodox thinking we’ve come to expect from”
Exploits get fixed. There has been exploits to bypass permissions, they’ve been fixed. Q.E.D.
“screeching, zealous orthodox coders,”
To which I (or you, rather) say: “Try to discuss ideas, and stop it with the personal attacks.”
“who have no ability to think out of the box,”
Uh huh, that’s why you repeat the same fallacies and straw men over and over.
“And who says your client receiving a texture “to wrap around your avatard” … “can’t be fixed”? Who says?”
I do. And just about everyone else with a clue about how that works. Which is to say, not you. Do you want to DRM everything from the pipe to your monitor? That would be the movie and music industry’s wet dream.
“people for whom they have contempt. It drips from your every word.”
There we go again, delusions of grandeur. What I have contempt for is you, not the “people”, or content creators, whom I have supported with thousands of L$ buying their products.
“People who think that in dealing with a society made up of humans, the “human factor” is irrelevant never last long.”
There you go, making up shit about people you dislike again. What I said was that the “human factor” was equally dangerous to ALL assets, if an account hacked. Therefore, citing the human factor when applied to SCRIPTS, is irrelevant when comparing them to other assets.
“I understand more and more why RL forces seek so aggressively to annihilate you.” and “No, I’m merely commenting on the aggressiveness with which all these anti-spyware sorts of things exist to defeat all the fucktards who make viruses for sport and malicious glee.”
Make up your mind, are you talking about me or are you talking about virus writers? Because I sure as hell do not make viruses, and I take great offense if you try to liken me to the people that do.
“Once again, your responses illustrate the deep fallacies and deep flaws in thinking of the coding class.”
The only thing illustrated here is your lack of understanding of even the most basic systems in SL. That, and your lack of understanding of basic written english.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 6th, 2007
>If you read my post, you’ll perhaps comprehend that that’s exactly the opposite of what I wrote. I said the permissions HAD been broken. What I also said is that if someone hacks into your account (human factor), everything is vulnerable, textures, scripts, animations, EVERYTHING. So singling out scripts and yelling “see, see it’s vulnerable!” is irrelevant. THAT is your failure to comprehend basic written english. So no, there’s nothing here to concede, you just agreed to what I wrote.
This is a very cramped and rigid notion of what a hack could be. Anything that talks can be interfered with. There may be new and brilliant ways to hack that don’t involve the human factor of the client-side rendering only. The unthinkable can and does happen with technology all the time, as history amply shows us. The facts always must be questioned. Who is to say that a viewer being coded up this minute won’t also somehow be able to hack into server code. After all, how was this rogue server able to be made? Honestly, the rigid thinking of coders astounds me.
A normal response of a normal, non-zealous, thinking person might go like this: “You know, it doesn’t work that way, in fact the server-side is protected from being read by the permissions system and the client-side doesn’t ever see it the way it is set up now, but of course, hacking via the human factor is always possible, and perhaps there is some remote possibility of some other kind of copying we haven’t heard of yet, say, a mapping of the motions of a scripted item against the commands always known to match those motions in items in world, and the generation of some cluster or cloud of motions that if mapped on enough objects enough times might generate some emulated code — or who the hell knows, we must leave the door open, of course, but in general, protection of scripts is pretty secure for now”.
Instead, the entire withering scorn of your whopping um…25 years? 22 years? is brought down like a ton of bricks, in scathing rage, like an Old Testament prophet, bringing righteous wrath down upon the unfaithful.
PERMISSIONS is something that has to be looked at 360 degrees, and thought about. You’re assuming that nothing will ever change about permissions, forever, and ever, amen. I have absolutely no faith in you or that statement. Because things change, all the time.
There are exploits that never get fixed. I know the ones in the group tools haven’t been fixed. Nobody likes to think about them, talk about them, or work on them. They aren’t fun. It’s those unfun exploits that are always the ones used to bring down the house.
You represent only a tiny, extreme faction in the broad debate about these things. In Second Life, we’re always treated to the depradations of the screeching hysterics, who sit on forums and rant and rave from positions of absolute hacksterish Linux IRC channel nutterhood, but more moderate and sophisticated people don’t take this position whatsoever. On Linux pages you can even find Linux nutters debating that it was perhaps not a great idea to opensource the client. There is a range of opinion that no one would ever know about, listening only to the screeching, hysterical voices within the tiny pond of SL. And that’s the problem, really, is that the Lindens have an amen-corner of your sort, and nothing more grown up influencing them or interacting with them on any kind of real basis, as they are in a sequestered cult. The coders are beyond the influence even of Lindens within LL, looks like. This is a dangerous, brittle situation; an accident going somewhere to happen. It’s that brittle arrogance that always precedes downfalls like the hacking of the dbase on Sept. 6 or the appearnance of Copybot Nov. 6 (no accident, comrade?)
The human factor, were it to hack, would likely first seize money, but then next, it would go after scripts.
Why would I say that? From observing how the human factor actually works. When Plastic Duck and co. hacked those big six or whatever inworld companies back in 2005, they took…scripts. When nimrod hacked the vendor he took…scripts. Scripts are what make the world work. A haxxor nerdnik is not going to take prim hair and shoes.
Yes, you are absolutely akin to a virus-writer, because of the arrogance and malicious glee you take in both besting people and making them look stupid, and your superiority in thinking that you know best, and that your take on the problems of SL are all that matter.
I think any sensible grown-up with even a modicum of intelligence and management skills would come up to this situation we have here and pronounce it: “An accident going somewhere to happen”. And it’s precisely because people won’t admit that they don’t know, or that the worst is possible, or that they are flawed (remember Andromeda Strain?)
Panda
Feb 6th, 2007
“There may be”, “Who is to say”, etc etc.
Blah blah. You’re just grasping at straws in an attempt to support your point. I’m talking about facts, not about whatever future fairytale scenario you can think up.
“Honestly, the rigid thinking of coders astounds me.”
First, I am not a coder. Secondly, it may seem rigid to you because I don’t bend it to fit whatever stupid claim of the day I’m trying to support, unlike you. REALITY is rigid. Reality doesn’t flex just because it’s convenient for your argument. As for your “cluster or cloud of motions”, it’s plain gibberish, as your new wording of “emulated” instead of “copy” shows.
“instead, the entire withering scorn of your whopping um…25 years? 22 years? is brought down like a ton of bricks, in scathing rage, like an Old Testament prophet, bringing righteous wrath down upon the unfaithful.”
Uh huh. You’re projecting again. I’ve stuck to facts and stated things that are real. You’re the one rambling on about “what ifs” and “maybes” like it’s a question of faith.
“PERMISSIONS is something that has to be looked at 360 degrees, and thought about. You’re assuming that nothing will ever change about permissions, forever, and ever, amen.”
Like I said, I’m talking about the present. Nowhere will you be able to point to where I’ve stated permissions will never change in the future. In fact, the closest thing you can find is quite the opposite, where I’ve said it’s been broken in the past.
“You represent only a tiny, extreme faction in the broad debate about these things.”
You’ve just described yourself to a T. “screeching hysterics” indeed.
As for the opensourcing of the client. You’re projecting again, assuming an opinion where none is to be found. Certainly not in my posts here.
“Yes, you are absolutely akin to a virus-writer, because of the arrogance and malicious glee you take in both besting people and making them look stupid, and your superiority in thinking that you know best, and that your take on the problems of SL are all that matter.”
You just described yourself to a T again. Especially that little gleeful smiley you tack on when you think you’ve been particularily clever in smearing someone. “and that your take on the problems of SL are all that matter” is especially fitting you.
Spirits Rising
Feb 6th, 2007
Good luck attempting to get It to see reason Panda.
Bujila
Feb 7th, 2007
Amen
Melissa Yeuxdoux
Feb 7th, 2007
Actually, trademarks are lost if they’re not defended, even in seemingly insignificant cases. Hence we see things such as Disney at least initially coming down hard on day care centers that painted Disney characters on the walls and a stonemason who carved Winnie the Pooh on a stillborn baby’s tombstone.
csven
Feb 8th, 2007
Brings to mind one of my old favorites: http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=54599&highlight=trademark (although this one was pretty classic – http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=57091&highlight=trademark ).