Op/Ed: Why The Lindens Won’t Listen
by Pixeleen Mistral on 21/05/07 at 9:54 pm
And why nobody else will, either
by Tenshi Vielle, Thoughtful Fashionista
Many residents have been asking, “Why won’t they listen to us?” …With all the in-world problems, programming bugs, and general nuisance issues, the Open Letter Project was introduced and thousands ran to sign it. I decided to take another look and figure out exactly why it was that we were having such a hard time communicating with the Lindens.
I spent some time the past few weeks attempting to contribute to the Second Citizen forums, a place created when the Lindens chose to shut down their Official discussion forums. I’ve heard it quoted as the best Second Life forum out there; I’ve seen it featured in Wired magazine. Those few weeks were, for the most part, a good schooling in the worst human beings I have ever had the misfortune of coming into contact with. I’d had friends tell me that it was a form of suicide to visit there; I can’t say they’re wrong. The most active forum users in there are well schooled in Drama (with a capital D) and carry a big spoon to dish it out. Dozens lurk, avoiding participation or any conversation, and with good reason. It’s even gone to the point where people are threatening the reputation of my good friends in Second Life. (You sick jerks.) These, my friends, are the people we associate with simply by signing up for a game.
Speaking of lurking, do you like children in that not-so-wonderful way? We’ve also seen this week that there’s a significant issue with ageplay in-world. The German media nabbed on that like a starving lion, and I’m not sure they’ll be letting up any time soon. Some people think that the ageplay is okay – but would you want a sexual ageplayer babysitting your own real-life children? There is a far difference between having a child avatar, and then having a child avatar to draw in a few lindens by some digital pedophile. Who, by the way, you lack the name of. Total anonymity – isn’t that what we came to Second Life for?
Add that to the fact that Linden Lab has been closing their comments section nearly every blog (and with good reason) and you’re starting to get a pretty good picture why Linden Lab refuses to speak to most of their residents. Blog comments such as, “Ummm, you know, you just KILLED shopping in SL until Monday with this, right?” in regards to ||GiveInventoryList bugs just *scream* “I’d love to help you develop your game further! Let me see if I can help you!” Not to mention it’s a waste of space for those of us that might wish to make a constructive comment now that support is waning. Also, please learn spelling and punctuation. The internet is not a giant text message. Thanks so much!
Is this really what we want to give off as Second Life residents? A backbiting, horribly nasty community that takes anything that’s thrown at it without a please or a thank you? Some of you do know your manners; thank you for that. Unfortunately, the loudest and most rude ones seem to be the ones that get heard first.
If all the world is introduced into Second Life by way of ageplay – what’s that say for our morals?
If Wired magazine readers are encouraged to join the Second Citizen forum, what does that say about the people here?
If all the world hears about Second Life is adult avatars having sex with child avatars, what does that say about the people here?
If all the potential big-name customers see on the Linden blog is nearly incoherent complaints, what does that say about the people here?
Are we sensing a trend?
Take a good look. Oh, and then try to program a multi-user platform which anyone can log into and build on. Then deal with bug issues and bitchy customers.
See if you’ll want to reply after all that’s said and done.
VIctoria Kemsley
May 22nd, 2007
Tenshi, when you left, I stuck my neck out and said i thought you got a bad deal at SC. Well I went back and re-read your posts, and you got exactly what you asked for. The snide digs and innuendo’s prevail in almost all your posts. And then you top it off with this, all I can say is grow the hell up.
shockwave yareach
May 22nd, 2007
Ian:
I can and do order plane tickets on the web. Real hardprint tickets in the mail that’ll take me wherever I’ve paid to fly. Can I do that on SL? No.
I can order a pizza to be delivered to my home via the web. Can I do that in SL? No. I can order building supplies on the web and have them delivered to my door; useful since I have a car and not a truck. Can I do that in SL? Nope.
How about: Check to see if a library book is out, order DVD rentals, purchase a CD, buy a rare out of print book, research a WW2 weapon for detail in a story I’m writing, purchase tickets to the movies, reserve a seat at a convention, rent a car, check the weather report, see a realtime radar for my RL home, purchase good coffee beans, buy/sell old test equipment, buy microcontrollers and brushless motors…
I can do none of these tasks which relate to my real life on SL. I can do all of these and many, many more on the web. So the web is useful in day to day real life, and SL is just the magical set of Legos we all enjoy together on those days when it works properly. Maybe someday SL can grow into something more. But unless its reliability and redundancy issues are corrected and all of its components become an open standard like the rest of the web is, I wouldn’t bother holding my breath for it.
Futher Mucker
May 22nd, 2007
so… did anyone decide that this right here is why the linden’s won’t listen?
“DUH”"”
Sansarya
May 22nd, 2007
“Yet again, no one has addressed my concerns that people from the SC forum were threatening my friend. Seems to be commonplace over there.
However, if your forum carries threads with posters like that, and it’s ALLOWED… god, the republicans must be going insane right now. I should get Bush on the phone.”
Eh, you’re just pissed that we all LIKE Iris and ignored you. Get over yourself.
Mark
May 22nd, 2007
Tenshi, no I have brothers, but I wouldn’t call any of them a babysitter. I’d call them my brother, who is watching my kid. Usually, where I am from a “babysitter” is someone who watches kids part time. That’s not day care, not one of my brothers, its 95% of the time a teen looking for pocket change. So I’ll not modify that point one iota. YMMV
I’d like to echo the sentiment that others have put forth that this “article” is really just a wrapper for an attack on someone(s) Tenshi feels has been mean to her (SC in this case). I also agree with the poster who said that Tenshi’s whole goal in going to SC was probably a premeditated plan to get them to get angry at her so she could scurry like the rat she is over to this rag and slam on the site. I also think the timing is quite ironic for this complaint about the dead people’s SS# post… Hmmmm..
Coco, how would you and your friends react if I savaged your RL looks? I’ve seen a photo of you in an archived thread on the official forums, it could be done. Not that I think there’s anything at all wrong with the way you look. How would you feel? How is it that people who pstand up to that type of high school abuse get labeled by you as high schoolers? I honestly cannot wrap my brain around it. Here I thought you were the type that stood up against such juvenile attacks. I guess that ends when people you don’t like complain about it?
Cocoanut Koala
May 22nd, 2007
I thought that article talking about the other designer’s real-life looks was pathetic.
That SC runs like Lord of the Flies has nothing to do with that.
coco
Tenshi Vielle
May 22nd, 2007
Sansarya: I can’t say people like her too much when SC regulars start sending her in-world messages and haranguing her.
Morgana Fillion
May 22nd, 2007
Which threats are you referring to, Tenshi? this thread (http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=13012) has your friend assuring everyone that she’s not your bitch and disagreeing with your little vendettas, and everyone else assuring her that they don’t hold her accountable for your idiocy. One or two people express a bit of wariness – but that’s not a threat. That’s just simple human honesty.
So since you made sure to re-bring it up, do tell.. what horrible threats are hiding in there against her? And while you’re at it, what’s with the innuendo about deleting posts?
Morgana Fillion
May 22nd, 2007
Which threats are you referring to, Tenshi? this thread (http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=13012) has your friend assuring everyone that she’s not your bitch and disagreeing with your little vendettas, and everyone else assuring her that they don’t hold her accountable for your idiocy. One or two people express a bit of wariness – but that’s not a threat. That’s just simple human honesty.
So since you made sure to re-bring it up, do tell.. what horrible threats are hiding in there against her? And while you’re at it, what’s with the innuendo about deleting posts?
Anonymous
May 22nd, 2007
In world IMs are not Second Citizen. So by this you mean they should just ban their regulars for activities done elsewhere than the board?:
“However, if your forum carries threads with posters like that, and it’s ALLOWED… god, the republicans must be going insane right now. I should get Bush on the phone.”
How about the Herald goes first? Starting with reporters who can’t right and freely admit that they are willing to let a lie stand if they don’t like the person they lied about?
Veronique Lalonde
May 22nd, 2007
Tenshi: “I said he had the potential to. I never said he DID.”
Sorry, Tenshi, your words, quoted several times, indicate otherwise. Nothing about potential, explicit or implied. Too late to backpedal.
“When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.” -Will Rogers.
Mark
May 22nd, 2007
Except that in Lord of the Flies, there really wasn’t a Beastie.
No one gets censored or banned or sanctioned on SC. People who leave there in a drama filled huff do so of their own accord and 99% of those who do are every bit as able to dole out that which is “forcing” them to be “run off”. Tenshi is a prime example.
Io Zeno
May 22nd, 2007
lol, I love the “if you could see the IM’s” defense. Hey, Tenshi, if you could see the IM’s I get about YOU, woo-boy! I’m not going to post a bunch of fake text or anything, just *insinuate* I know horrible things about you!
Then again, isn’t that what you did to Sabrina?
You are a troll. Trolls aren’t well liked on forums, although on SC anyone can post and we put up with you pretty much after your initial entrance, until your premenstrual drama queen exit. I suggest you stop now before you turn into “the poor man’s Prokofy, without the brains.”
Cocoanut Koala
May 22nd, 2007
I already said no one gets banned on SC.
It’s still Lord of the Flies.
coco
Mark
May 22nd, 2007
Ok then SLH is Harrison Bergeron.
nyah nyah
Busta McNutter
May 22nd, 2007
If you don’t like the buggy laggy broken game, get the fuck out.
Old fat lady from new york who loves to complain, why the fuck do you keep playing? go die in a fire profoksy
NigrasOnMyLawn
May 22nd, 2007
BAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW
Toby McAllister
May 22nd, 2007
SLH v SC, round 9999999999999999.
Anyone else bored by these high school bitches?
Jennifer McLuhan
May 22nd, 2007
“I’ve lurked around the Second Citizen forums and I have to say that I haven’t had much urge to post. The ones running the show seem very far left, some to the point of hating the USA, and seem completely intolerant of people who have any leanings towards spirituality and/or religion. Specifically Christianity.
I’d love to see a forum emerge that represents much more of a cross section of Second Life rather than a clique of friends who don’t appreciate having their opinions challenged. As for the Lindens not listening to us, I’m afraid I don’t blame them. The forum that seems to get the most traffic is also the one that’s the most bile-filled, the others get nearly no activity at all. Where’s a “resident” supposed to post?
Posted by: Jimbo | May 22, 2007 at 01:58 PM
“Unless you’re the type of Christian that hates gays, abortion, believes Bush is instilled in office by Jesus and basically epitomizes the type of hypocrisies destroying the country at the moment. Then yeah, you won’t find yourself welcomed there with open arms.
I don’t know you, but it strikes me that you probably fall into that group, and if so your presence isn’t missed.
Posted by: Joshua Nightshade | May 22, 2007 at 02:08 PM “
“…You’re obviously not fulfilling your promise to Christblood. Maybe you should pull out the bible and go preach to them heathens. Think of the grace you’d receive in the big white cloudy heaven in the sky when you convert a bunch of heathenous, librul, non-republican, jesus-killing blog posters. George Bush would be proud of you for being a good patriot among evil!
We’re counting on you boy – go – go forth and convert those heathens over there! You can do it – JesusGod and GWB grants you the POWERRRRR!!
Go get ‘em Tiger!!! Give ‘em one for the Gipper!
Posted by: Johnboy Walton | May 22, 2007 at 04:46 PM “
No Joshua & Johnboy – The posts you two have made against Jimbo are perfect examples of the great weakness of Second Citizen. You do not allow posts contrary to your sexual or religious belief systems, to be taken as points of discussion. Just as Jimbo was assumed to be a hard right Christian zealot intent on sending all of you to burn in the fires of hell, certain members of SC attack the character of anyone who happens to express ideas that don’t play to your anger at religion and belief that because you are gay, you are some how special.
I am Christian and darn happy in being one. I happen to believe that gays, minorities, women & men should be treated like all human beings, with love and respect. I also, happen to believe that unborn babies are entitled to the same love and respect we are.
But, I don’t go around telling everyone who happens to feel differently that they are going to hell, they are sick, or infer they are somehow less than human.. I don’t feel I am entitled to anything special because I am Catholic. Nor, do I make guilty until proven innocent statements about someone else’s beliefs.
So there, you have my lineage. That was wrong what you and Johnboy did to Jimbo.. It is none of your darn business what Jimbo believes. I think he is right in his statement on the closed-minded nature of SC. So why not argue with him on that point? Why make inferences that you know will inflame emotions and not lead to discussion? Were you two trying to start a flame fest here?
I am tired of certain people at SC crying all the time about how hard life is for them, because they happen to be gay and, acting like this somehow entitles them to become jerks. Life isn’t perfect for any of us. Being angry at the world will do nothing but turn the world against you.
Second Citizens has a lot of wonderful people caring people. It also has the above mentioned people who aren’t interested in dialog and communication. They only want to tell everyone how sorry George Bush is and how horrible the Catholic and Christian churches are. Or tell us, if you believe a baby is a baby from conception and, that aborting this baby is wrong you are somehow evil incarnate.
These people use a shout others down technique that drives people with different views away or turns them into lurkers. The end result is that Second Citizen suffers from the lack of a broad diversity of ideas. It becomes one big clique.
Jen
Soleil
May 22nd, 2007
I love you Johnboy Walton. wub wub wub. <3
Envoy Costagravas
May 22nd, 2007
Just for balance: I researched all the various SL outlets of information (forums, blogs, whathaveyou) when I first went inworld. What suited me best? SC. Tenshi’s post is filled with errors and innuendo, but that is sort of beside the point. Do what I did: lurk for a long while.
You’ll know if you’ve arrived at the right place.
I have friends that I wouldn’t exactly encourage to come to SC, because I don’t think it is the right mix for them. If you have a thick skin, a big brain, and (maybe most importantly) a wicked sense of humor (or humour), it might be just the thing. It is for me, but it isn’t for everyone.
As a rule – and there are always exceptions – the people over at the Second Citizen forums give a fair shake a hell of a lot more often than the writers for this rag.
And there probably isn’t a better time or place than this to thank Prokofy Neva for alerting me to Second Citizen. Thank you, ma’am, for making my Second Life experience all the richer!
Gina Benavente
May 23rd, 2007
And now the SC gang is sending out their alts to post here. Typical.
Can someone add a link to a better forum? (preferably without the highschool highjinx?”
Coyote Momiji
May 23rd, 2007
Gina, could you point to the alts? I’m curious.
Io Zeno
May 23rd, 2007
“And now the SC gang is sending out their alts to post here. Typical.
Can someone add a link to a better forum? (preferably without the highschool highjinx?”
You have awfully discriminating tastes for a Herald reader, Gina.
What alts, dear?
Yeah, it’s all our fault Tenshi here decided to trash everyone on that forum in yet another “op-ed” about who Tenshi hates and why. Still not as good as the “This SL blogger is a bitch, a slob, and her dog is ugly” piece but she tries, bless her.
Envoy Costagravas
May 23rd, 2007
Gina, just so you have one less thing to worry about: I’m not an alt. I’ve never had an alt. I’m new enough to SL to not have time to make a good alt, or learn an alt way of behaving. You are welcome to look me up inworld for a chat, and I assure you the one abiding reason I’ve seen no need for an alt is that I behave exactly as I want people to know me as – I have no reason to hide behind alts for differing ways of behaving. I am a gentleman, and operate only one, kindly av in SL.
And I left high school many decades ago.
One Song
May 23rd, 2007
coco says: “Philip once said that they were bad at running forums, and they failed at running forums, and that the forums depressed his staff.”
ROFTLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One Song
May 23rd, 2007
It’s gotta be hard work sustaining and feeding that love machine.
Prokofy Neva
May 23rd, 2007
>Coco,
>Having seen the abuse report, I know that it’s frivolous and was done maliciously today to spite FIC and SC. The person who filed it did so completely out of an attempt to abuse the system and the site.
I’m not the person who filed this report, and I don’t think I would file one on this particular subject because advocacy of crime doesn’t necessarily rise to the test of “incitement of imminent action.”
Still, I think a judgement would probably be made by the service provider of the context, and it might not be in SC’s favour and they could probably make it stick. The person posted a dumb-ass criminally-minded idea, and failed to see they’d get nowhere with their “genius concept” because of course there are checks on that kind of abuse of the SSA. And interestingly, even the immoral thugs on SL gathered around in that thread and said, hey, that’s not such a great idea, sounds like a criminal action.
But the fact remains, this person advocated the abuse of the Social Security system to beat age verification, and that’s wrong. It’s a serious matter. It’s the kind of thing that a provider could indeed close a forums for — and with could reason, it is an incitement to abuse. Is it incitement that meets the test of “incitement to imminent action.” I’m not sure.
It’s not frivolous, and it’s not somehow “vindictive” for someone to urge that the law be upheld. It should be. The scurrilous scofflaws at SC should be mindful of that.
There are various ways that are worth fighting SC. One is for everybody to flood into it and condemn what they do and stand up to the bullies and post a lot of counter arguments. Another is to ignore it. Still another is only to respond when attacked.
Mark
May 23rd, 2007
Oh the Prokwinds are’a blowin’!
IS THIS ARMCHAIR INTERNET LAYWERING I HEAR FROM PROKFLY?
OH MY GAWD! A NON-PROFESSIONAL DISPENSING LEGALITIES! LEGALITIES WHICH ARE NOT STATES OR FEDERAL LAW, BUT merely OPINION!
Mark
May 23rd, 2007
FOR SHAME!
Mark
May 23rd, 2007
I ROUNDLY CONDEMN YOU!
Ian Betteridge
May 23rd, 2007
After the Prokabee comes the real thing, spouting her usual nonsense.
Ian Betteridge
May 23rd, 2007
Prokofy The First: “There are various ways that are worth fighting SC. One is for everybody to flood into it and condemn what they do and stand up to the bullies and post a lot of counter arguments. Another is to ignore it. Still another is only to respond when attacked.”
Or there’s your method: see your “arguments” roundly taken apart, and run back to your own blog where you can ban the people who stand up to your bullying.
Fox Absolute
May 23rd, 2007
This is the most intelligent post anywhere on the internet concerning Second Life.
Someone give this reporter a medal.
Jimbo
May 23rd, 2007
Joshua, asking me if i’m a gay-hating, Bush worshipping right- winger just because I’m Christian would be the same as me asking a gay person if they’re promiscuous. It was an extremely bigoted remark of yours and unfortunately, from what I’ve read there, people at second citizen are all too happy to jump on the anti-christian boat. Just because you’re “left” doesn’t mean your comments aren’t bigoted. Maybe it’s time to put Joshua under the microscope and do a little soul searching.
Anonymous
May 23rd, 2007
Good one, Fox!
Nacon
May 23rd, 2007
The whole time reading the comment posts here, something about mother.
Surely I don’t read SC forum, bound to be missing out the whole big picture deal…
but seriously, wtf… mother?
If Tenshi is on SC Forum… then we’ll know she’s all into minor’s high school drama non-sense.
Clearly based on her first report about a SL fashion designer in RL’s photo. Can’t miss that.
Tenshi Vielle
May 23rd, 2007
Nacon… such a cute troll. Do you have the Herald on RSS feed for your cell phone or something?
Rebel Television
May 23rd, 2007
I’m Christian and don’t have any issue with the content of SC. A few strawman statements made in good fun don’t agitate me because my faith is stalwart
Tammy Nowotny
May 23rd, 2007
Yeah, Second Citizen does have a pretty low signal to noise ratio, thanks to all the Drama on it… and 98% of the Drama there is created by those who love to moralize about how terrible Drama is… but it still can be fun.
I do think there would be more “signal” if more people joined up and started relevant threads on it. (Although I usually just add to the Drama on existing threads myself.)
Cocoanut Koala
May 23rd, 2007
I am a Christian, and I agree with Jimbo that SC is unfriendly to Christians, particularly as regards the denigration and ridicule of Christianity and its symbols.
I also agree with Jennifer that the technique of shouting down (and insulting) people with dissenting views results in a lack of diversity in the forum.
coco
Rebel Television
May 23rd, 2007
“the technique of shouting down (and insulting) people with dissenting views results in a lack of diversity in the forum”
As opposed to here, where three bullet points are often countered with three paragraphs?
like_ummm
May 23rd, 2007
The denigration and ridicule of christianity are becoming pretty mainstream. As Christianity is being recognised as being regressive and harmful to society.
like_ummm
May 23rd, 2007
Besides Christianity has been denegrating and ridiculing us non-believing heathens for millenia.
Tenshi Vielle
May 24th, 2007
Spanish Inquisition.
Vargas Cleanslate
May 24th, 2007
rebel, if those three paragraphs actually discuss the bullet points, i’m all for it. while i only agree with prok about 1 out of 1000 times, at least he has the decency to actually address the issues being discussed (between ad hominem attacks. hey! it IS sl!)
Gina
May 24th, 2007
Second Citizen is a silly forum full of silly people. Most of the threads are ridiculous and self serving, and the trolling and drama is rampant. If you want to hear people bitch about their “sexual freedoms” (riding poseballs, roleplaying, and dressing up their dollies in pleather) being repressed it’s the perfect place for that. I’m not into that and I’m having trouble finding a 3rd party forum where people talk more about second life than themselves.
Any suggestion?
bubbles
May 24th, 2007
I have a suggestion. Set up your own forum, Gina, and make strict rules that people should only post what you think is right.
Io Zeno
May 24th, 2007
“I have a suggestion. Set up your own forum, Gina, and make strict rules that people should only post what you think is right.”
I agree, and those rules would be: discussion of roleplaying, animations, clothing, sex or anything fun is VERBOTEN.
“Silly, Silly, much too silly!”
I’d rather be silly than a stuck-up prude.