Robin Linden’s Broadly Offensive Behavior Office Hour
by Pixeleen Mistral on 06/06/07 at 7:11 pm
Residents question Robin Linden on “deliberately left vague” policy statement
by Myrrh Massiel
Since Linden Lab’s recent crackdown on ageplay expanded to include additional forms of broadly offensive behavior, several thousand residents have gathered under the banner of United Protest to seek a reversal of Linden Lab’s new policies of intolerance. Yesterday, leaders from various United Protest initiatives met with Robin Linden to open a dialog in which she clarified the new policies.
Following is an excerpt of the conversation. A full transcript is available at the United Protest website.
Robin Linden: I heard there was some big news in Germany last night for child pornography in Second Life, real child pornography. They apparently arrested someone.
Jazhara Keon: Robin, are you aware of the unison of about four thousand to five thousand people after the blog post Daniel Linden made last week?
Robin Linden: I know the position we’ve taken is unpopular, although I think there’s some misunderstanding that it’s a new position.
Alexandra Rucker: It seems to be deliberately left vague, with no apparent desire to make the positions more clear, Robin.
Robin Linden: True, Alexandra.
Alexandra Rucker: One man’s “offensive” is another man’s “sunday picnic” so to speak. My grandmother would find the internet offensive…I live on it. Without specifics, it just turns into a witch hunt by anyone with a grudge. We don’t need to bring “Salem Witch Trials” to the internet.
Robin Linden: If you Abuse Report someone for being offensive, and it turns out that the charge is false, and you do that often enough, then you yourself will be subject to discipline for misusing the system.
Jessica Holyoke: Whose standards on broadly offensive? United States, International?
Robin Linden: The standards are set by our community standards. The big 6 that we have lived by since the beginning. Again, that post was reiterating our position. It wasn’t new. Second Life is a global service. It’s pretty impossible for us to know or adhere to all the laws in all the jurisdictions that we cover, so we’re working with various governments to understand their individual concerns. We have to decide how to respond. I think everyone agrees that child pornography is abhorrent, and doesn’t belong here. Beyond that it’s obvious that the lines are not always that clear.
Alexandra Rucker: Yes, but wearing doll or child avatars is not necessarily child pornography, if they’re not engaging in sexual activities.
Robin Linden: Agreed Alexandra, which is why child avatars have not been banned.
Ciaran Laval: Robin, a blog post would be helpful in explaining that child avatars aren’t against the rules. People are complaining of harassment.
Robin Linden: I’m not going to write a blog post about child avatars, but if someone reports a child avatar and there’s no inappropriate behavior then that report will be closed with no action.
Jazhara Keon: What is illegal about two consenting adults roleplaying a sexual or non-sexual fantasy?
Robin Linden: Jazhara, there are some countries, including most of the European Union, who don’t make that distinction.
Summer Seale: Well, like the Saudi government – should we all go around wearing veils?
Robin Linden: Summer, no, and I think that’s a law we would choose to fight. Or we could decide not to do business in Saudi Arabia. Those are the sort of choices we have to make. We want to keep Second Life safe and legal, but we also want to stay in business.
Summer Seale: I understand that, Robin, and that was an extreme example, but the point is still there: which rules? Because if they’re not clear, everyone is in danger of transgressing something without even knowing it, and that is worrying.
Robin Linden: Summer, if someone isn’t sure then they can ask.
Summer Seale: That too is not clear. I’m not a Gorean, for instance, but I know many people don’t like Gor and find it offensive. Is that a gray area? Or is that totally acceptable?
Robin Linden: I can’t speak in generalities. We have not found any reason to ban Goreans or BDSM.
Alexandra Rucker: A lot of concern is in interpretation. Without clear guidelines of “offensive”, the main worry is things will not be enforced fairly. Conservative people will respond to more Abuse Reports with action while those more liberal-minded will be less likely to respond to “gray areas”, just as an example. Clear guidelines of “offensive” need to be set so that Lindens all have a clear set of checkpoints, and so that the residents know what will and won’t be cracked down upon.
Robin Linden: Alexandra, our staff has a huge wiki page dealing with every known complaint, so staff members can see how we’ve addressed problems in the past. We do our best in training to make sure there’s consistency in response.
Ravena DeCuir: Robin, would it be possible to coordinate all these questions through you?
Robin Linden: No, but I’ll get you a place to ask your questions. I have to tell you though, that we can’t address every single corner case or possibility, In part because the real world hasn’t decided which of these things they’ll tolerate. Let me ask you all this. When faced with an opportunity to create a new world where things are supposed to be better, do you think there’s a place for slavery, forced sex, and the like?
Summer Seale: Sometimes. It depends on what your kink is. =)
Ciaran Laval: Forced sex? No, consenting forced sex, yes.
Nobody Fugazi: Everything here is voluntary.
Stephen Zenith: Nobody can be forced into sex here
Jessica Holyoke: But that’s all a part of our personalities, if the promise is “your world, your imagination” vs. “someone else’s utopia”.
otakup0pe Neumann: Robin : If that’s what floats their boat, that’s why there are private sims. Not on the “mainland” and not “in my backyard”.
Lewis Nerd: Personally, I’d say no … but a lot of people have gotten used to it, and it’s a bit of a “bait and switch” to suddenly make these things against the rules after all this time.
Robin Linden: We have tried to create a world where everyone takes responsibility for their own actions, within some broadly stated guidelines called the community standards. We’ve relied on the Residents to let us know when those standards are violated. Nevertheless, as we’ve grown and as we’ve spread out across the globe in RL, there are different sensibilities that we face in different places. This is a new situation for us, and one we have to navigate through. We would like to maintain our approach where the community lets us know when they believe the community standards have been violated. Hence the reminder to use the reporting system. That said, we may find there are times when behaviors that we have allowed in the past, e.g. ageplay, are viewed strongly enough by some jurisdictions that we have to decide, for the sake of the business, that we aren’t going to allow them anymore. I doubt very much that ageplay is the last behavior that will come under this scrutiny.
Lewis Nerd: I think the basic question is this: does Daniel’s post change what is acceptable, or was it just badly worded?
Robin Linden: What Daniel said in his post is that we have standards, we have a reporting system, and we need to work together to try to maintain those standards. In retrospect perhaps it seemed like a new policy because it sounded more proactive than in the past.
Tasrill Sieyes: I live in the same country as you do, Robin, and yet in my state sodomy is illegal – yet gay sex has never been questioned by Linden Lab. Why do you now care about the laws of other countries?
Robin Linden: There may be times when we decide to fight something that the real world tries to impose on us. One case I can think of would be if some government asked us to give them information about political activities among their citizens. But there will be other times when we have to decide that non-compliance will result in a harm to Second Life, and we can’t allow that to happen.
Ciaran Laval: People were under the impression that certain things were allowed on mature land. Daniel’s post suggested they weren’t.
Very Susanti: Hahah – of course. In the begining it was the furries, Goreans, and ageplayers who were probably the bread and butter, so you couldn’t restrict them. But with the new growth you can.
Robin Linden: The reason I can’t say that this or that activity, or slant on BDSM, or degree of forced sex is or isn’t allowed, is because I don’t know the answer. For now I would say use your heads, live by the laws of your own jurisdiction, try not to be in other
people’s faces with activities that you know might draw criticism in the real world.
Summer Seale: But that’s the point – this isn’t the real world, nor was it ever meant to be, by your own standards.
Robin Linden: Summer, that’s unfortunately an idealistic notion that we’d all like to hold, but which I don’t believe will hold until Second Life is big enough that you can all go to your respective legislatures and say leave us alone.
Lewis Nerd: A question … Daniel’s blog post implied that the “community” had asked for the clean-up. So when were the community asked?
Robin Linden: I don’t think Daniel meant that, Lewis. And you should all know, I asked Daniel to write that post. I should take the heat, not him. I asked him to do it because I wanted the community of Second Life to know that we all have to work together on this.
Ciaran Laval: The timing of the blog was unfortunate in the wake of the Livejournal fiasco. There’s still the issue that previously extreme violence seemed to be a mature land issue, and now it seems to be banned.
Robin Linden: Extreme violence implies extreme, disgusting, beyond- the-pale imagery, such as rotten.com-style images of violent death, not videogame-style carnage.
Nobody Fugazi: Robin: If an abuse report is filed, there is no visible recourse or precedent. Will that be addressed soon?
Robin Linden: Nobody – believe it or not, if someone feels they have been falsely accused, they just need to let us know.
otakup0pe Neumann: Through normal support channels?
Robin Linden: If all else fails, let me know and I’ll make sure it gets addressed.
Stephen Zenith: And what if they admit to doing what they were accused of, but didn’t know it was considered “broadly offensive”?
Robin Linden: Stephen, then nothing will happen, as long as they don’t do it again. We do follow a warn, warn again, then kick policy, except for fraud or major griefing.
Jazhara Keon: Robin, to let you and all the other people here in this meeting know – United Protest, the group that contains about 4000 people through other groups represented by their owners, has only one goal: keep Second Life free of Censorship, like Linden Lab always said they would. Our efforts in this are geared toward working together with Linden Lab, in a peaceful and communicative way. If ever you want or need help, opinion, or feedback, do contact us.
Robin Linden: Thanks, Jazhara.
Summer Seale: I think perhaps a broad constitution of standards and rights for all residents might be appropriate at this juncture. Some of us feel as if we, perhaps, count less than the corporations, and i’m pretty sure that many of us would like to know that we are equal to them. Or if we aren’t, then at least we will know that we aren’t.
otakup0pe Neumann: Summer, as a representative of a corporation, I really hope that what you say is not the case.
Robin Linden: Summer, I think if you asked the corporations, they’d say just the opposite. Do you think you could organize SL Residents to develop a constitution?
otakup0pe Neumann: Wait, Robin, before you go there – If residents (in theory) all cooperated and a constitution did evolve, what would Linden Lab’s take be on it ?
Robin Linden: Linden Lab has always said that we can’t, as a business, create a representative government within Second Life. That’s not to say, however, that we wouldn’t work with Residents to agree on standards. The more likely scenario, however, is that Residents will join together to create local regions where they agree on rules. In that case our role becomes more one of oversight. When the day comes that the group can host their own servers, then they can do whatever they want and answer directly to their local authorities.
Hazim Gazov
Jun 6th, 2007
This offended me, please remove it from the site before I AR you and report you to the AOL police.
Inigo Chamerberlin
Jun 6th, 2007
Anyone really expect anything else from Robin? She’s not even very good at avoiding the issues.
Anonymous
Jun 6th, 2007
Daniel Linden already told a group at the Standford Humanities Labs that Linden Labs deliberately make rules vague.
http://slcreativity.org/blog/?p=32
(he did, among doing other things, like mocking residents)
But this shows that even Robin Linden apparently hasn’t read their own Community Standards which customers actually agreed to, regarding “broadly offensive” content to be in mature areas.
Anonymous
Jun 6th, 2007
Robin Linden Office Hours 03/08/2007
[Questioner]: My question, worded as ‘good’ as possible, is that if two adults, of verified age, wish to participate in ageplay, in private land, and not ‘promote’ it to others, can they do so without interference from LL?
Robin Linden: [Questioner], under those circumstances LL would not intervene.
Karl Reisman
Jun 6th, 2007
Interesting. LL seems as lost as any broadcast company when a nipple is “exposed” during family TV hours. I can see where she is coming from, that the jurisdictions of the SERVERS are what counts for legalities sake. I think the reason for the”Vagueness” is simply because they don’t know how to deal with the issues from wither side. Blindsided by the German authorities on the one side and the LJ backlash on the other. They are on unstable ground.
I also think that “pure freedom” cannot exist with more than 6 people involved. Rules, standards and trust , which become politics, come into effect. No censorship and pure freedom are idealistic, but fail in the face of even simulated reality. You can’t be divorced from the culture you grew up in.
I sincerely hope that LL can resist the lure of Petrodollars, and avoid any business with the Middle East.
Karl
Angel
Jun 6th, 2007
“Robin Linden: I heard there was some big news in Germany last night for child pornography in Second Life, real child pornography. They apparently arrested someone.”
Good one Robin, pull the think of the children card so the meeting goes a little easier… Actually the arrest was of a RL kiddie-porn sicko who also played Second Life.
http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/2007/06/05/german-police-collar-user-with-child-porn/
Kahni Poitier
Jun 6th, 2007
Not a single specific answer given.
She should run for office.
Crissa
Jun 6th, 2007
Yes, Robin, you did lie about the blog post – Daniel Linden said “but our community has made it clear to us…”
Anyhow, if they aren’t willing to hold to avatar portrayl – things which are legal in the US, where they are located – then where will they stop next? Bleeding avatars are illegal in Germany and Poland. Religious avatars are illegal in Greece and Turkey.
Being vague means more work, not less. She’s the hole that’ll sink the ship by letting the water in. You need to choose where to draw the line, and she has chosen to not draw the line anywhere.
JimBean
Jun 6th, 2007
moron1 sez:
> She’s not even very good at avoiding the issues.
moron2 agrees:
> Not a single specific answer given.
you guys crack me up. keep up the good work.
(oh wait, you’re trying to be serious.)
Nacon
Jun 6th, 2007
It’s such pity that LL trying to do their best to control idiots on internet.
Now before you think about saying I’m wrong with that statement… I want you to prove that Internet’s “community” is same as real “community” from real life.
It’s easy to understand how “community” works in real world because there are already many rich and poor countries everywhere, reaction to action effect of the ….”community”.
Internet? Pfft, they change all the time because everyone from rich and poor countries “community” slammed together into one non-understandable community. The real problem was… SL has been letting that “community” come inside for too long. Now it’s just a bigger mess for Linden Labs to clean up. In a way…. it’s almost as if Linden Labs was trying to clean up on Internet’s “community” scale.
It’s a pity, yo.
(If you wanna help, just don’t be a dick. Play along, no matter how hopeless you become.)
Prokofy Neva
Jun 7th, 2007
Re: “Robin Linden: Jazhara, there are some countries, including most of the European Union, who don’t make that distinction.
Summer Seale: Well, like the Saudi government – should we all go around wearing veils?
Robin Linden: Summer, no, and I think that’s a law we would choose to fight. Or we could decide not to do business in Saudi Arabia. Those are the sort of choices we have to make. We want to keep Second Life safe and legal, but we also want to stay in business.”
The BDSM and other lifestyle gang really undermine their own case, and the general case for liberalism, by lurching to extremes like this, and posturing in hysterical and tendentious fashion.
It’s utterly unpersuasive, and so easily knocked down.
Linden Lab hasn’t told anyone to put on a burqua, and to claim that’s “coming next” is not only to “cry wolf,” it’s to make yourself look silly. If BDSMers think they inspire confidence in their judgement by such shrill and hysterical claims, all easily refuted (LL isn’t going to be tolerating beating of gays), then they can’t draw common-sense liberals to their case for tolerance.
Linden Lab has said it will no longer tolerate simulated child rape because some countries outlaw it. And they say they want a better world where simulation of child rape is proscribed. Someone who likes a world with the whipping and chaining and raping of children in it then can raise their own VC and make their own dystopia, I guess is the inference — and good luck with your local authorities.
Is there ever to be a restraint that the fuck-you hedonists will acknowledge? Oh, I guess not because that’s their credo, fuck you, I get to do what I want.
I think Robin did a pretty good job fending off extremists, including some who are trying to invoke some 4,000 strong movement against censorship that no doubt has many people incited to join by hysterics like we see in this exchange — “OMG we’ll all be forced to put on burquas and stoned to death”.
I think Robin’s challenge as a VP of a private company making something that someday will have a profound influence as a public utility is absolutely on target:
“I have to tell you though, that we can’t address every single corner case or possibility, In part because the real world hasn’t decided which of these things they’ll tolerate. Let me ask you all this. When faced with an opportunity to create a new world where things are supposed to be better, do you think there’s a place for slavery, forced sex, and the like?”
I don’t think a “new world” that is “supposed to be better” includes the normalization of violence, coercion, slavery and purveying of this culture as one of “consent” to be what I or any sane liberal and democratic individual or government would want to promote. A society based on the kind of harsh hierarchy of Gor or oppression of BDSM hiding behind “consent” rhetoric is one that no thoughtful person would want to be training their children and the next generation to create.
Sometimes, to try to bring these extremists and hysterics to some sort of rational common sense that tries to appeal to their conscience of a public good higher than themselves, I ask them if they would like BDSM and Gor to be taught as required subjects to be trained in, in public elementary schools. Would they like this to be civilization’s norm in real life, for their own children?
The more common-sense ones will say, no, of course not, it’s just my evening or weekend bondage fantasy for a virtual world, not something I’d inflict on the public domain or ask to be taught in schools.
The more extreme ones who have cults and compounds in real life, of course, do imagine a caliphate-type imposition of this sort of oppressed hierarchy in relations between men and women.
So if you can’t imagine a world in which Gor and BDSM are taught at P.S. 101 in your neighbourhood, then you have to ask how you will prevent that form happening. Do you feel there is no relationship between simulation and reality? Why? We all know cases of people who meet in SL and went on to meet in RL. If we are all living online and the simulated world *is* the world for our children and ourselves, do we want everyone taught Bondage 101? I sure don’t. And I simply think that it has to be resisted at this level now, to be kept out of the public domain now, or those argueing from the liberal perspective of tolerance for the public domain will pull a sleight of hand and inflict their values on the public domain and restrict its freedoms.
Gor, BDSM, capture-roleplay and all the rest hysterically, vehemently, nastily affirm their right to privately do what they wish to do — and good liberals concede it and say yes, we should all be agnostic about lifestyles in the private sphere.
But those advocating and justifying violence and coercion don’t have good answers for the world which results from the replication, multiplication, and normalization of their practices, so that they begin to constitute not private silos, but an aggregate that makes a public domain everywhere and a blanket suffocation.
I CONSTANTLY see how BDSMers bleed out their oppressive RP tactics used on their “subs” to everyone else in RL. A landlord like me who crosses them by asking them to return excess prims or pay rent on time is suddenly someone whom they must try to subjugate, bully, humiliate, expose, harass. I’ve got loads of evidence of how that works from my rentals. It’s the single most persuasive factor for me to undermine this bullshit about “consent”. I don’t consent whatsoever to be in some BDSM roleplay. But not only do I get these girls saying “Sir” and referring to themselves as chattel in the third-person, I get these “Masters” ordering me around as if I have a chain on my neck too. I call them on this bullshit instantly.
I really want to see what’s likely to happen when the BDSM types try to push the envelope on something like Blue Horizons, which has “NO SLAVERY” clearly marked on their house rules board. Does this mean that if BDSM RPers come clanking and whipping into the business park, the owners will summarily expose them? That’s how I’d understand “No Slavery”.
The reality is that the “lifestylers” organizing against “censorship” are in fact busy creating an oppressive blanket censorship on everyone else, where they begin to feel uncomfortable about asserting their own values.
Spankubux
Jun 7th, 2007
Inigo, you are arguably the biggest fucktard on the internet. Do you realize what “Robin isn’t even good at avoiding the issues” means?
It means that she _addressed the issues_, you ignorant tool. Do you even read your own writing?
But, because I have to believe that your semantic kung fu is suffering from the same overall deficit as the remainder of your cognitive skillset, I’ll assume that you meant that Robin was avoiding the issues. This, she clearly wasn’t. She admitted that they were being vague, and explained why they were being vague.
You just don’t like what she said when addressing the issues, which is not the same thing as avoiding the issues.
Fool.
Doubledown Tandino
Jun 7th, 2007
What I’m wondering is this…. If an SLer engages in something that is illegal in a certain country, and that country’s authorities request real life info for an investigation, would LL aid by giving up RL info?
example… 2 AVs are engaged in ageplay. … It’s illegal in Germany. Would LL release RL info to German authorities?
humanoid
Jun 7th, 2007
What Inigo wrote makes perfect sense. If Robin was good at avoiding the issues it wouldn’t be obvious that that’s exactly what she’s attempting to do. What’s sad is that no one called her on it.
Aloe Stradling
Jun 7th, 2007
Wow. That was a lot to read.
Prok? You raise some very good points, and I understand where you’re coming from.
But, I’d be lying if I sad I still wondered why people hate your guts. yhis is a typical Prok post, then you have a keen sense of making intelligent points, while comming off as a defensive, offensive jerk.
Lolindens
Jun 7th, 2007
Fight for your right to freely express yourself online. Join the Patriotic Nigras.
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From Avatarstan
Jun 7th, 2007
LL has tendency to comply with the legislation of its biggest markets (read: EUrope). LL won’t comply with the legislation of Utah, Saudi-Arabia or Vatican, because it will be easier to drop those markets.
Note that simulated kiddie porn is clearly against the US law too, but a court decision about it is still missing. If somebody now arguments that a US court lottery can make any decision about simulated kiddie porn despite the legislation, (s)he has a strong argument. But usually the US court conclusions are very similar to the EUropean ones, even if the American judge’s derivation of the ruling comes from another planet.
“If an SLer engages in something that is illegal in a certain country, and that country’s authorities request real life info for an investigation, would LL aid by giving up RL info? It’s illegal in Germany. Would LL release RL info to German authorities?”
Usually global companies/ organizations release information to local authorities in another country. Rosedale confirms this: “Everything in Second Life is marked with your identity and name,” he said. “If you break the law in your locality in real life, and we can facilitate people going after you, we have no problem with that.”
Because LL doesn’t directly operate in German jurisdiction, the German authorities can’t directly impose their laws. But indirectly they can.
In this kiddie porn case of Germany, a crime, which is a crime in the USA too, has occurred. Thus German authorities could have started a legal process in the USA with the same effect except that it would have cost more to LL.
When the legislations are fundamentally incompatible, like in Saudi-Arabia, the country applies banning of the offending company. All the internet connections out of the country are censored.
Even if Microsoft might be banned from the EU, very few US company wants to be banned from a market area of almost half a billion people.
Jennifer McLuhan
Jun 7th, 2007
“Wow. That was a lot to read.
Prok? You raise some very good points, and I understand where you’re coming from.
But, I’d be lying if I sad I still wondered why people hate your guts. yhis is a typical Prok post, then you have a keen sense of making intelligent points, while comming off as a defensive, offensive jerk.
Posted by: Aloe Stradling | June 07, 2007 at 04:03 AM”
That is NOT the typical Prok post. It left out the litany of sins and abuse inflicted by others upon Prok. It is also the kind of post that keeps me reading Prok. For once we get the brilliant insights Prok is capable of without the negativity and crass language. I know this sounds like a back handed compliment, Prok. However, in my mind your post was excellent, truthful and refreshing.
I would only like to add a couple of comments or sayings in support of Prok’s post. These were things I heard my parents say more than once and, in light of what has happened in SL over the last two years, I am beginning to understand the wisdom behind the words.
They are:
Total freedom equals total anarchy.
What is in our heart is what we will become.
Jen
Prokofy Neva
Jun 7th, 2007
It’s completely typical, and it’s merely that some people agree, and others don’t agree, and calibrate their “liking” accordingly. I simply won’t be controlled by others, so this notion that Jennifer and others have that they can issue little reproaches to “keep me on the straight and narrow” of their imagined scale of competency is absurd. Give it up. Negativity and what some kettles are calling pot’s “crass language” are more than in order in this setting; the posts speak for themselves as to the nature of the setting.
Inigo Chamerberlin
Jun 7th, 2007
Spankubux – I’ll thank you to keep a civil tongue in your head when addressing me.
Furthermore Robin’s feeble attempts at dodging the issues are what makes her inept attempts to do so quite obvious. It does NOT mean that she DID address anything… In fact I can’t remember when Robin last ‘addressed’ any issues. Her entire skillset appears to consist of referring to ‘issues’ without actually saying anything concrete, making any decisions, setting any precedents. About all she ever manages to do is to create confusion and annoy the customers.
Though I must say, getting another Linden to act as her mouthpiece represents an alltime low for Robin in my opinion.
Jessica Holyoke
Jun 7th, 2007
I’m going to reserve until later any comment regarding Robin’s idea of a Utopia, or BDSM, but to focus this post on one thing.
Debate with me if you will, but adult content sells and retains residents on SL. Not all residents mind you, but there’s a reason why its very likely that you’ve heard of Xcite, Sensations and M&S. Looking to the Goreans, there are hundreds, if not thousands of practitioners who have bought the accessories to take part in the roleplay. Businesses in SL are built on this type of resident activity. The Daniel Linden blog post, which Robin took the heat for,states that any depiction of sexual violence or broadly offensive content can lead to termination of a person’s account. Not public activity, but any activity, presumably including private, mature or adult content areas. This is different than Prok’s account on his own land where he makes the rules. What is the concern is that people would no longer be able to make that determination for themselves in areas for which they currently have control.
The concern for businesses with customers and demand is that if the Lindens feel like it the resident will terminate the account with all the attendant penalties such as forfeiture of assets. That is what the blogpost stated. What Robin offered as advice for such business owners was not helpful. Primarily because if a business owner was to follow “the laws of their own jurisdiction” it wouldn’t matter because if another jurisdiction objected, the account could still be closed. The last part of Robin’s advice to business owners was to not place such activities in the face of other residents if you know that it might somewhere, someway be objectionable. That clearly covers the Prok situation, but it can also include advertising and marketing. And while some residents may applaud the lack of adult advertising, what you would create is a situation where if someone new wanted to come in and open a club, they can never compete with older more established clubs.
In Summer’s defense, she was responding to a question that I asked Robin about “whose standards.” Robin put forth that the standards was that of the SL community, as opposed to the US, EU or an international standard. The point of asking such a question and whether Saudi Arabia was included is so that residents have guidance on their activities before any action would take place, not after.
Two last points, first, Robin identified that the Lindens would fight other governments if they requested information on the political activities of their citizens but would not on other forms of expression, such as sexual. This suggests that they will support speech so long as they don’t get their hands dirty. Sort of like a criminal defense lawyer only defending innocent people.
Second, based on what Robin said, the advice she gave business owners would not help them in the situations she described. If a resident followed the law of their own jurisdiction and another jurisdiction objected to the activity to the extent that SL may be harmed, with no level of what type of harm which would justify the Linden’s actions, that resident’s activity can still be banned and their account terminated.
Its one thing to base a business risk on your own activities or the strength of Linden Labs, its quite another to base it on unknown future jurisdictions.
Infected
Jun 7th, 2007
Excellent post Prok.
Sadako Shikami
Jun 7th, 2007
Prok, if you’re hearing “Sir” and “this girl” from your tenants, and bullying from supposed “Masters,” you’re definitely dealing with online-only BDSMers! Which are a separate breed entirely from the offline lifestylers, who know how to use pronouns and wouldn’t think of calling their landlord by anything but their name. I personally have a lot of peeves about online-only lifestylers, since I live the lifestyle 24/7 offline and advocate for myself where and when I need to. The online-only crowd gives the BDSM and D/s lifestyles a bad name, for sure.
RE: United Protest having 4000+ members … there are a lot of duplicate memberships between all the various groups that formed since last weekend, someone would have to get a real count of individual names. (I don’t have time to do the count; anyone interested?)
I’m disappointed that no one called Robin on the TOS vs. the blog post specifics … the blog post was not a reiteration of their policies, since the TOS merely states that broadly offensive content must be in a Mature area. Nowhere in the TOS does it state that such content is “never allowed” in SL.
While I’m engaged in investigating LL’s policies and preparing to fight for my rights as needed, I’m also taking personal responsibility for my actions – which is what I think Linden Labs is trying to force residents to do. I’m opening a club that caters to BDSM and fetish lifestylers, and I’m putting warnings and disclaimers such as “you are over 18 and your avatar is over 18″ and “if you are offended, leave now” in my greeter. That’s *my* job, as the lessee of the land I’m using, to “keep it safe” for everyone involved.
A newbie stumbled in to my club the other day, I asked him how he found my club and he didn’t reply … my intuition told me he wasn’t there on purpose. I simply gave him my standard notecard full of landmarks to New Citizen’s Plaza and other “safe” venues, he thanked me happily and left.
I believe it’s only right that we all take personal responsibility for our actions in Second Life. Is that so hard to do? If we don’t police and legislate ourselves, Linden Labs will step in and do it for us.
Sadako Shikami
Jun 7th, 2007
Jessica Holyoke said: “In Summer’s defense, she was responding to a question that I asked Robin about “whose standards.” Robin put forth that the standards was that of the SL community, as opposed to the US, EU or an international standard.”
In the Daniel Linden video at Stanford that’s hit so many blogs lately, around 19 minutes in, he is asked what are the main complaints they get in Second Life: Daniel states clearly that the *majority* of complaints are about issues such as, “my neighbor has an ugly fence,” a building is “blocking my view of the ocean,” and the number one issue: “that guy was rude to me.” So, there’s your the answer about “What are the standards of the SL community?”
Ban ugly fences! *wink*
humdog
Jun 7th, 2007
the Linden desire to tell grownups what to do strikes
me as protofascist.
the Linden desire to inflict american mainstream values on non mainstream americans and non-americans strikes me as imperialist.
there is the first amendment of the US Bill of Rights:
and it says in part Congress shall make no law…abridging the freedom of speech.
the Lindens are not bigger than the Bill of Rights.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 7th, 2007
Jessica, you are so off base once again, you really need to straighten up and fly right on this stuff, it’s annoying. You make it seem as if I’m going to set rules on my land that ban all sexual activity of any nature. You make it seem as if I’ve banned BDSM, Gor, and all kinds of “lifestyles”.
But you are ignorant of the actual rules and practices. I have many tenants who are Gor and BDSM — imagine! That’s because my rules are simple. I’ve never had to expel any of them over objectional *content* only objectionable behaviour violating the rules about prims, or payment on time or something normal that even their own set on their own sims would enforce.
In looking at the Lindens’ new policy, I’m taking my time, looking it over, and seeing if I get any complaints. I’ve had to pre-emptively try to protect myself and my tenant on my land with pre-emptive abuse reports due to Csven Concord’s witch-hunting over a bile-filled blogwar and his vindictive harassment over a *swingset*.
I suggest you familiarize yourself with my actual police blotters and practices before you make a caricature of me as someone hounding BDSM or Gor.
I take a philosophical position against BDSM and Gor as intellectually and morally reprehensible. That doesn’t mean that I don’t rent to them, as I maintain an open, liberal rental agency unlike so many others. If anyone finds that hypocritical, hey, they don’t have to rent from me. But they come by the droves precisely because it is lower cost and tolerant and protective of diversity and privacy.
Your notion that BDSM and Gor makes up some huge chunk of my bottom line in microscopic form or the Lindens’ bottom line in macroscopic form is very, very skewed and mistaken. You just don’t have the scope of traveling and observing SL to have an accurate opinion. It’s a minority of practices in a largely heterosexual and vanilla sexual world. To be sure, people use some elements of BDSM beyond the hardcore BDSM practitioners, but it’s not some kind of huge percentage. It’s not more than 25 percent I would say at the most, probably less, and sexual content even counting private homes probably doesn’t make up more than 40 percent, as much as everybody is in a lather about this.
You’re still having trouble accepting that simulated pedophilia and some forms of extreme sexual violence are CRIMES in some countries and could open up LIABILITY FOR LITIGATION even in the U.S. Could you kindly get a grip on this if you call yourself a lawyer? A lawyer does no good for herself or her clients if they claim that CRIME is not CRIME.
Jessica Holyoke
Jun 7th, 2007
Prok,
I have changed my position on sexualized ageplay after finding out that there was a statute against it. I posted my change of position after one of your blog posts here on the Herald.
I made my comment to you after you specifically referencing a BDSM trying to invoke you in their roleplay. You are the one that mentioned Blue Horizon as banning BDSM type acts on their Sims. If you have such a problem with BDSM in general,why do you allow it on land that you own?
In my economic view, there are many places in SL that are vanilla and sex free. But how much money is honestly being passed through the lindex because of those activities? Are there economic indicators on those fiqures that counter my proposition?
Prokofy Neva
Jun 7th, 2007
Great to hear from you, humdog! Where have you been hiding?
You were so right about the intrusiveness and data-scraping of virtual world companies.
But you’re wrong about what’s happening now. Here’s why:
>the Linden desire to tell grownups what to do strikes
me as protofascist.
The Lindens didn’t tell grownups what to do. They themselves decided what they wished to remove or limit to avoid litigation and avoid loss of the service to Germans and other EU citizens. There are more Europeans than Americans now in SL.
They are telling people to assume responsibility for compliance with their own laws with their own adult content. Far from telling people what to do, they’re making them take responsibility. It’s up to us to abuse report what we find “broadly offensive”. Therefore our collective task now, whether fin, fish, FIC, or fowl, is to say: we will not abuse report anymore, full stop.
This is one thing we can all unite against, even those of us who hate factions of each other’s. You don’t have to like Gor or BDSM, or you don’t have to like the much-maligned and exaggerated “Christan right” (almost non-existence in SL) to all agree about a simple act of human solidarity across the board: do not inform on your neighbour. Do not abuse report.
All coercive states rely on one thing: the ability of citizens to undermine human solidarity and inform on one another. If everybody decides not to abuse report anything, the Lindens have no fodder for their arbitrary police enforcement.
If people are not willing to give up abuse reporting and persuade others to do so, they have absolutely no case when they whine and snivel that somebody is “making” them do something.
So the only thing proto-fascist here is some fanboyz who will abuse report others, or intimidate people like me who have been outspoken, as Csven has been doing threatening me over a swingset.
>the Linden desire to inflict american mainstream values on non mainstream americans and non-americans strikes me as imperialist.
Um, where’s the infliction of American mainstream values? Seriously, humdog, clime off your high horse, turn off the reaction machine, and LOOK at where this came from. NOT AMERICA. It came from secular and sleazy Europe, eh? Not Moral Majority American but Immoral Minority Europe.
Please, take the rant about moral majorities elsewhere. The Europeans made them do it.
>the Lindens are not bigger than the Bill of Rights.
No, but the EU is. The EU has no First Amendment concept. Their concept of free speech is more restricted than ours.
csven
Jun 7th, 2007
” as Csven has been doing threatening me over a swingset.”
I guess it’s true. She can’t stop talking about me. I’m feeling really creeped out. People have been IM’ing me their theories and… ugh.
Lorelei
Jun 7th, 2007
Prokofy said: “do we want everyone taught Bondage 101? I sure don’t. And I simply think that it has to be resisted at this level now, to be kept out of the public domain now, or those argueing from the liberal perspective of tolerance for the public domain will pull a sleight of hand and inflict their values on the public domain and restrict its freedoms.”
But here’s where you undermine yourself. By your own statements, you lead us to believe that you do not wish to incorporate any aspect of BDSM in your life. And yet, even without BDSM, you come across as a raving lunatic. You kinda make BDSM look good in comparison
Jessica Holyoke
Jun 7th, 2007
If the person that posted below my previous post is really Prokofy, I applaud you very loudly.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 7th, 2007
BTW, the video creates a different and possibly better impression than all the stuff read on it up until now, from the LL speeches, the website, etc. It portrays a picture of needy students who got a lift by getting scholarships, advice, connections to help them do better and get into college and find business opportunities. It’s a kind of mentoring and aid program, and that’s all to the good.
As always, I have questions though, as I still don’t see a) the overarching ideal that we should ascribe to — integration and internationalism and universality? or promotion of identity to reach equality? and b) what is the national policy we should have growing out of this — why is it that high schools aren’t coping with these issues with existing state funding.
I don’t know how the social services are in California, but in New York City, I can only say that a high school student in a public school could not likely be telling a story of hunger and not having food because she could go to her free public school breakfast and lunch, and also get into programs for dinner, too, if her parents were low income or on welfare.
Vargas Cleanslate
Jun 8th, 2007
why exactly can’t LL set up a representative government? eve online seems to be doing so: http://www.3pointd.com/20070607/eve-online-to-get-player-led-oversight-panel/
Prokofy Neva
Jun 8th, 2007
Good point, Vargas. But notice two things about this “representative government” in Eve Online: 1) the company will pay all expenses to fly them to Iceland to do this oversight function; 2) the power gamers or Eve version of FIC are likely to be on the committee.
No. 2 is hard to avoid starting out in a democracy, but no. 1 is wrong and shouldnt’ be done. They need to eat the dogfood and use the new social media itself to do the oversight, and save the cost, or pay for their own costs.
LL does something like this, they pay all expenses for their select group of 8 FIC types to come and talk to them in their program called SL Views, which I’ve heavily criticized. It has no legitimacy.
Kryss Wanweird
Jun 20th, 2007
Very cute!
I’ll make one for me and give out copies to my friends
Kryss Wanweird
Jun 20th, 2007
Moderator:
My previous post on this article is misplaced, it belongs to another thread. Please remove. Thank you.