One Night with the Free Women of Port Kar

by Jessica Holyoke on 25/02/08 at 5:31 pm

by Jessica Holyoke

Free Men of Gor abusing an innocent woman

A Green Caste enters the Courtyard. “Lady, I hear you are looking for a Feminist in Gor!” So began an interesting and enlightening night in Port Kar.

Readers of the Herald, or those who just like seeing naked men, might remember Hanze Melnitz, Admiral of Port Kar, posing for Post Six Guy many months back. I recently returned to Gor and started to notice that the women far outnumbered the men and sometimes the Free Women outnumbered the slave girls. I decided to take a night off from my own role play and travel to Kar to talk to the Free Women there.

As I telepoted in the market, I was lucky to see both the Port Administrator Dark Starr and his Free Companion, or what would be on Earth a wife, Devyne Daligdig. I introduced myself and my paper and asked if I could talk to the women out of character about their experiences. I had to explain a few times how I wasn’t a centerfold photographer but rather just a journalist/editorialist.

I changed into some Free Women clothes and teleported down to the Docks of Kar. Seeing Kar reminded me of why some people take part in Gorean role play in SL. There were small details of seagulls and turnbuckles. Everything was designed to replicate the feeling of being on another similar world but by the sea, in this case, at the mouth of the River Thassa.

My reception in Kar also reminded me how people can be judged by their groups. Combining a few Gorean groups with my Feminist group and a female domination group conjured this image of myself as a man-hating lesbian. Add the fact that I was asking these women why they willingly covered their entire bodies, including a veil on their face, surrounded themselves with barely dressed, fawning girls who are referred to as sluts, knowing that they themselves could find themselves naked in a collar for certain infractions, and submitting to a variety of restrictions on their movements and actions and it was not the warmest of receptions. At one point, the Free Men sent me a picture showing them abusing innocent women.

Devyne Dalig and her girl

I started by talking to my hostess, Devyne Daligdig. She began with another account as a slave, but then came to Gor as Devyne, the Free Woman. While she started out in a BDSM community, she came to Gor and liked it more than where she was before. She tried other role playing areas, such as Star Wars and the Elves, but the community and family of Kar is what brings her back to the Port.

One of her slaves – a kajira – came up to us. I asked Devyne how does owning a pleasure slave work with having a Free Companion. She told me how knowing what the expectations were upfront, on both sides, was important to making the relationship work. Her slave was a student of Gor and Devyne enjoys her role as a teacher of the ways to be Gorean in SL.

Some women start out as kajirae due to the frequency of learning opportunities. Sela Montgomery started out that way. She learned the ins and outs of Gor as a slave before becoming a Free Woman. She now serves as Port Kar’s Ambassador.

When asked what would you tell someone who thought that it is demeaning or anti-feminist to be involved in Gor, not as a kajira, but as a free woman, she had this to say:

“If someone were to focus on specific aspects of the role play, it could be interpreted in many ways. True, Gor is a male dominated fantasy world. But fantasy is the key word here. I am treated with most excellent respect both by the men of this city and any of the many cities I have traveled to in my duties as Ambassador.

I think the thing to keep in perspective when looking at Gorean role play is that for most, it is role play. We always consider the human behind the avatar and their feelings, needs and their heart.

We would both be rather silly to believe that everyone in SL has a pure heart and honorable intentions – but that said, we cannot in good faith limit that realization to Gor. One does not have to look far into other role plays I am sure. Human nature being what it is, those issues exist on Earth sims, as well as role play sims I would suggest.

Yes, there is a huge aspect of Gor that is about the slaves, of course. But unlike the novels, you will rarely see a slave sold if she does not wish to be sold to that particular Master – the same as you would not see someone literally forced to a collar as you would in the novels.”

Other free women’s responses where similar. I asked the same question of the Chief Scribe, Silua Mills. She told me that a feminist would demean her if they tell her that she cannot choose to role play in an environment where she doesn’t have to pretend to modern ideas of equality to be valued. The Free Woman in Gor is not the same thing as in real life. She still lives in a Man’s world and she isn’t expected and is indeed forbidden from trying to act in masculine fashions. Most feminists would say that is demeaning. She says that it is liberating.

I then was greeted by the Green Caste elder, Kaiila Mahoney. The Green Caste are the Physicians on Gor and as such have a slightly different role. Kaiila is the head of her Green Caste group that spans many Sims and cities. Apparently my reputation preceded me as she asked me if I was looking for a feminist. That’s when I found out her story.

Outside Port Kar

She told me that she was a feminist, a retired police officer who spent 27 years in uniform. She was in the first female army unit after the Woman’s Army Corps was disbanded. She told me why she took part in this role play, first in text chat and then on Second Life.

“I have commanded men in war, real war. I am retired now and work in industry and run a successful business. Many of our slaves and FW are successful powerful women.

So why do we play in Gor? What brings us here? Why would we want to demean ourselves as you call it? Because there is a deeper core to this. Something many don’t grasp.

It has to do with what I lost when I retired, a sense of service, a sense of honor.

Honor is used a lot in this role play. All my life I have been the protector, a single mom raising a son that is also successful.

I come here because in fantasy, I want to at least try and to pretend there are strong men. I want to believe there is honor. I want to think there is a sense of country, duty.

The panthers, the outlaws, you know what most of them are, just the opposite. They are the frustrated housewives. They have not had the opportunities I have to be equal to men

They feel that standing on docks spitting insults and capturing men and raping them gives them power.

Do you know what gives my power? What gives me power is respect. What gives me respect is how I treat men with a sense of grace and dignity that comes with respecting them. Many of these men are just boys, much like the young recruits I had in real life. They give me respect. I don’t demand it. I don’t require it. I get it. I have never been collared. I have never been captured.

I am also the elder of the green caste if you know what that is. That is all the healers in the game. I have over 300 physicians that look to me and I work with most of the Gorean sims. So I come her to be a lady. And you know what? I am still leading.

And the men? They talk with respect to me. So am I a woman’s liberationist? No. I used to laugh when I was in my fox hole in real life, saying I challenged them to come and crawl through the mud like me or worse when I had to deal with death and life in the rawest form. I would sit and cry. And wonder why can’t I be like the little housewife and not have to experience this. So I come here to think there can be a land where I can be protected and cared for where I can just love and not have to hurt or push or be angry.

Monday morning, I will go back out into my world and be that women’s liberationist but tonight, I want to be a lady.”

Port Kar courtyard

In taking my leave, I asked one last question of my hostess. What would you tell someone who thought that it is demeaning or antifeminist to be involved in Gor, not as a kajira, but as a free woman? Devyne had this to say:

“I would tell them that Gor is NOT feminist, those who are would hate it as a Free Woman, and feel demeaned as a slave. People in Gor understand what it is. Its harsh, Men are Men, women are weaker than men. A free woman is free because men allow it. Free Women have standards to uphold. Slaves are free to be women, to be free in their sexuality and in giving themselves to their owner. To come in yelling how terrible it is, is judging something you do not understand and demeaning to these people’s personal preferences

I think what it comes down to, when coming into something like this, for whatever reason, you have to be open to any possibility. Be honest with yourself, be willing to push limits and learn who you really are. People here KNOW who they are, more than any community I’ve even been in. We all have a sense of self unlike anything….and that it itself is an amazing experience.”

29 Responses to “One Night with the Free Women of Port Kar”

  1. anon

    Feb 25th, 2008

    itt nobody at the Herald understands such delicate notions as “resizing digital images” or “aspect ratio”

  2. Princess Ivory

    Feb 25th, 2008

    I realize that you are writing from the point of view of the Freewomen, and not that of the slave girls. But still, how is there honor and respect (the words of your interviewed subject) in a world that allows people to be owned and abused by others, and to be publicly abused (as indicated in the photo they gave you)simply because they are female? And how can a freewoman justify the treatment of slave girls as anything even remotely approaching honor or respect?

    I have tried to understand this culture, and read your article hoping for enlightenment. But it left me as confused and unconvinced as ever. I just don’t “get” it. I wish I could understand.

    Princess Ivory

  3. Walt

    Feb 25th, 2008

    There’s nothing to understand. It’s a highly idealized, romanticized version of a backward, primitive society run by rejects from the Sopranos wearing John Carter of Mars outfits. And ‘honor’? You mean like killing your daughter if she gets raped, clitorectomies as graduation presents for little girls when they hit puberty, and stoning women to death if they go to a doctor… that kind of ‘honor’? No thanks.

    Perhaps if these people enjoy misogynistic barbarism governed by a pre-medieval patriarchy of swaggering thugs, they should just pack up and move to Saudi Arabia. Sorry to be all flame-y and shite, but why not just call things as they are?

    Move along folks, nothing to see here.

  4. janeforyou Barbara

    Feb 25th, 2008

    Anyone in Gor or any place in SL get abused like showen here ONLY if thay want to
    Its a play.

  5. Lucas

    Feb 26th, 2008

    I am so conflicted over this matter. Whenever there is an article on Goreans in the Herald, as I read the slave girls defend their “Way of life” I find myself thinking, “That’s true, they do it on their own free will… and all of it is obviously consensual because you can leave SL at any time.” But then I will read the comments section which always has good points against Gor. What Princess Ivory and Walt, above me, said were both true. It *is* demeaning to women no matter how you look at it. If you saw a drawing of a women being raped, what do you think of that picture? Even though no real women is being harmed, isn’t it still vulgar and disturbing?

    There is no honor in owning another person or beating a “free woman”. I guess kajira take pride in serving their master, and I guess I can see the sense in that. I don’t see what’s so wrong with a relationship built on equality, though.

    To each their own. If you want to be a slave, go ahead. But I think Goreans should not be so defensive to those who think they are demeaning to women, because it plainly is, even if only in *concept* and not in practice.

  6. you know what freedom means?

    Feb 26th, 2008

    Indeed why not take things as they are?

    These women LIKE to roleplay slaves in a backwards primitive society as you call it. So?

    Others LIKE to roleplay being a badass vammpire in a combat sim, or they LIKE to roleplay being a girl raped by some tantacles at Hentai High.

    So why bother trying to tell them they are wrong for that? If anyone is wrong, it´s you trying to determin what others should and should not like.

    I wonder how you would respond, if someone were to come up to you at whatever it is you do in SL, and started ranting all about how you are so WRONG in doing whatever it is you do on SL, and spend all their time and energy in convincing you of that fact?

    Live and let live. Your World, Your Imagination.
    Well, for these women and men, this is THEIR world and THEIR imagination. and that goes for every other single resident of SL, so stop bitching about it for once.

  7. Apocrypha

    Feb 26th, 2008

    To answer the post of Princess Ivory: “But still, how is there honor and respect (the words of your interviewed subject) in a world that allows people to be owned and abused by others, and to be publicly abused (as indicated in the photo they gave you)simply because they are female? And how can a freewoman justify the treatment of slave girls as anything even remotely approaching honor or respect?”

    The slave girls are there willingly, seeking out sexual submission. When a slave is in the act of servitude her desire is being respected, satiated.

    Now onto an observation I have to spew:

    In Gor, unlike the real world, women do not have to feel demeaned if they have submissive urges. They are discouraged from acting masculine, discouraged from the burden of being a provider, a decider. This can be a freeing experience to women, who having a self-effacing nature, are constantly having to toss aside their feminine desires in the new “feminist” real world which has reduced the classical women roles such as nurturer, life giver, care taker, etc. Yes, I use the word nature, for women are biologically hard wired to be self-effacing. As life givers, we must sacrifice to see our offspring to adulthood. The desire to breed and rear children are the norm for women across the globe, the new feminist world in which women are pack mules: working full time, going to school, raising kids, while also taking care of house and family is a violation of our primal desires.

    Feminism rose up promising women that it would free us. It would allow us to have options concerning careers and education. Feminism promised women that we would be happier if we had more sexual freedom, if we cut the apron strings and donned business suits. What the feminist movement didn’t consider is what women would lose in their vying for equality. We lost chivalry, we drove it from men. They culled their protective instincts due to the social conditioning of a feminist society. Women flooding the job markets drove down the necessity to pay a living wage. Gone are the days in which any man could afford a wife, three children, home and car on a single income. This influx forced women who chose to be mothers out into the work force, in turn it forced more of our elders into nursing homes and our children into day care centers to be raised by strangers. Women, instead of being more “free” are now tied to a boss instead of her children, elders or husband, which is where she prefers to be.

    I am a feminist in that I believe women deserve the same civil liberties as men. That we should be allowed the choice to persue a career or education equal to that of men. However, this neo-feminism, where motherhood is considered a waste of opportunity, where men have abandonned loyalty because sex is so easy to attain since the inception of the sexual revolution; I do not support. This neo-feminism that defines a woman’s value via her career or attractiveness, that encourages women to abandon their children in pursuit of a career, or hold off child rearing until her ova are unhealthy for reproduction is offensive. This neo-feminism in which the nuclear family is being steadily destroyed, divorce having skyrocketed to a 57% rate, the standard of living not increasing since the 1970′s, where crime is increasing due to lack of parental bond and supervision, where charities are suffering an all time low due to lack of volunteerism which the at home mothers once filled, where women are considered “weak” or deviant for admitting the most common of sexual fantasies: submission; this neo-feminism is a cancer on women.

    It distorts our view of our own nature, it is ruining the society in which we all inhabit, it even has us turning our noses at the notion of being: docile, soft, sacrificial, nurturing, compassionate, beautiful, which were all once the celebrated core traits of women. This neo-feminism is turning women into men and men into women. Gor is a place where men can act out those testerone entrenched fantasies of capturing a beautiful woman and making him fall in love her via his strength, wit and masculine allure. Gor is a place where women can fill her natural desires to be adored, cherished, the center of one’s desires and captivatingly exotic to all who set eyes on her.

    Its why Gor is so popular, its the place where people can return to the traditional roles they were raised with.

  8. Artemis Fate

    Feb 26th, 2008

    I think it’s funny that somewhere along the line, those free-women outfits got translated into “pretty dress with a nice little veil”, as opposed to how they were described in the book: pretty much outright as a burqa. So the most “free” class of women in Gor, is what is the symbol of female oppression in real life.

    I also think it’s funny that they seem to define Honor as something gorean men have, which is odd, since I remember honor being defined through chivalry and kindness, I must have missed the part where slavery, rape, murder, and subjugation of what they consider the weak was what defined a man as honorable. They should love hardcore radical Islamic middle-east then, all the men there are FULL of honor when they kill their daughter for being raped by a man, or for standing up for themselves, or for showing a bit of skin.

    Also, this is the same Dark Starr that threatened me over IMs that he’d take me to court for using the name of his sim once in my Gorean notecard, despite that it was a neutral reference, despite that it wasn’t even referring to his incarnation of the sim “Port Kar”, and despite that he has no ownership of that name in the first place, yes?


  9. Sakkara Quamar

    Feb 26th, 2008

    Walt, I take it you havent read a Gorean novel.

    Clitowhatever doesnt take place.
    A FreeWoman who is raped and not enslaved isnt killed, shes left Free, though a bit on the dishonored side.
    And getting killed for going to a doctor? Most of the women are doctors.

    Comparing Gor to being akin to a Middle eastern culture is so short sighted and narrow minded to be insulting.

    The Gorean novels display several cultures of Earth all taken from Earths past. The Vikings, the Native Americans, Inuits, Africans, among a few, and all kept in a state of semi barbarism, barbarism akin to the Greek or Roman periods, where technology has risen to the level of a crossbow and the sheer agressiveness of the wildlife has cause the males to retain “hunter gatherer” aspect thats been weeded out of civilised man.

    Thats the books anyhow.

  10. Jessica Holyoke

    Feb 26th, 2008

    The photo shown as the lead is meant to be ironic. Unfortunately, that one night in Port Kar was really laggy for me and I didn’t get enough pictures.

    The slave’s point of view is missing because this article is about Free Woman only and because that story is a bit overdone. Everyone asks about the slave’s point of view. But there are so many more stories out there. The Freewomen are one. Panthers are another.

    I really liked Apocrypha’s response. Thank you for commenting.

  11. Corona

    Feb 26th, 2008

    Fantasy vs reality

    fundamentalist Islamic states show the reality of what a fantasy like the Gor sims would be like

    if it were real men would be just as oppressed as the women

    real societies however are never so simple

    historically however it has been shown that al lstable and viable socites have an equal balance of social power between the sexes
    regardless of the roles taken

    modern Islamic socities where women are badly treated tend to be those which are unstable fo reasons such as war – they are transient and will not last

  12. Shahmat

    Feb 26th, 2008

    Docile women, with the exception of religious icons, are not as famously celebrated throughout history as strong ones. Jeanne d’Arc and Elizabeth I were certainly not revered by men for their…docility.

    This belief in “natural roles,” and character defined by gender, is what has repressed men and women both, and limited their development as human beings. For decades it has made men struggle to project what must be perceived as “manly,” and women chafe at the restrictions imposed upon them by society. It’s been responsible for more grief and oppression – upon children as well – than misogynists would have you believe.

    Any advanced organism, in order to survive, must adapt to a rapidly changing world, socially and psychologically as well as physically. It has been proven that as a species, we are adapting faster than the stone-age beliefs encouraged by Norman would dictate, and that our behaviours are changing as well to reflect modern times. We no longer need the systems and behaviours that were developed around hunter-gatherer societies simply because they are obsolete. To go back to discarded behaviours and norms pertinent to an obsolete environment and archaic societies would be a self-defeating exercise, and go against what we were born, and are built, to do. Learn, adapt and flourish.

    In my opinion, it is not women as a whole or society which is struggling to cope with this “neo-feminism,” but rather, yourself, and other, perhaps maladjusted, dissatisfied types, both male and female, who either wish for the past or have not kept up with the changing times – times that require more than children or home-making from women. You are the anachronisms, the dinosaurs. And gradually, like others who cannot accept change, you will be phased out and forgotten, like so many before you.

  13. Callie Osenthal

    Feb 26th, 2008

    Goreans are about the stupidest thing I’ve seen in SL. I’d take a furry, or a goth or a vampire any day over these dorks.

  14. whisper2u

    Feb 26th, 2008

    I don’t think that there are any real women in the Gor sims. I think its all guys doing each other. You would have to check your brains at the door and be driven by your groin to go into one of those places.

  15. Valentina Kendal

    Feb 26th, 2008

    Thank you Jessica for doing another article on Gor, it has helped solidify my belief that there is no reason for me to ever go to one of these sims. I was conflicted about it for a long time, but it was only peripheral until a very good friend decided to immerse in a Gor sim as a slave. I personally find the premise of Gor society repulsive. I am saddened that there are lots of people who choose to spend their SL experience glorifying the subjugation of women, when there is so much wrong along those lines in RL. In discussing this issue with others, they keep reminding me that these people are all participating voluntarily, and not to take it all too seriously. But even then something still bothered me. Eventually I realized that yes, people participate in D/s relationships in SL all the time, and participate in degrading behavior for sexual satisfaction (don’t we all at some point?), but for me it is the fact that this is a *society* centered around the concept of female slavery that is the difference. That I find offensive in SL and RL. Unfortunately, I also believe that these people have a right to voluntarily do what they want in SL, and I wouldn’t take it away from them, as much as I disagree with their values.

    Princess Ivory and Lucas, I agree with your comments…

  16. DaveOner

    Feb 26th, 2008

    What’s funny to me is how this majestic “lifestyle” and lore is projected and what people tend to come to the defense of when SL Gor comes under attack. No one seems to approach what’s really going on there.

    It’s mostly male douchebags that bully around women and fight each other to compensate for their actual inadiquacies. The majority of them obviously don’t know how to talk to a real woman which is evident when they try to do anything but publicly humiliate thier “slaves”.

    There’s no honor or respect in that.

    I roleplayed there for a couple months because it was the only really developed RP setup in SL that didn’t allow stupid shit like nekos and cartoon animals (which ruins the vibe of just about any RP that isn’t just about nekos and cartoon animals). I caught a few slaves and sold them to make some decent money. It was fun for a little but then I moved on due to monotony and douchebaggery.

    When talking with the ones that weren’t panthers I saw that the ones that seemed like actual women were really somewhat dissappointed in the whole thing. They wanted to roleplay the whole submissive deal but a majority of the male slave owners either didn’t know what the hell they were doing or started trying to take things to RL which the girls weren’t interested in at all. People were keeping up appearances but the reality is an illustration of how real societies based on male domination and female submission without condition actually function. They don’t.

  17. I dont

    Feb 26th, 2008

    “Gone are the days in which any man could afford a wife, three children, home and car on a single income.”

    QFT; there should be the CHOICE. Its good that a women can choose between family or career (to put it simply of course it’s a grey area) but as it is now, there really isnt a choice.

    This can be blamed on the economy being good or bad for a couple with kids where only one partner works a paid job, but I cannot help but also notice and agree that nowadays, you almost HAVE to both get a paid job to be able to live in somewhat of a western standard of living.
    Economy or fact that jobs dont pay as much cause both can work anyways, I leave in the middle.

    “They wanted to roleplay the whole submissive deal but a majority of the male slave owners either didn’t know what the hell they were doing or started trying to take things to RL”

    That’s true for every ‘dominant’ role on SL, not limited to Gor.
    The key to proper RP, from both sub as dom perspective, is communication. If one doesnt talk to eachother in IMs (out of character) what each expects and wants of the other, the RP will suck for either one or both of the participants. If your dom isnt waht you expect him or her to be, let him or her know.

    Taking things to RL, that’s a different story, and I have also heard and read the stories of RL opressed women because they got in to deep with roleplaying Gor online.
    This I really dont understand, how is that possible? Did they exchange adresses online? How stupid can you really be?

    As I see it, Gor on SL is no problem. One cannot become a slave if one doesnt want to: there is ALWAYS the disconnect button.
    You could argue, and many have, that the threat of being excluded and banned from any Gorean sim around can make a girl to just give in because she really likes playing Gor and doesnt want to be excluded…

    But alts can always be made, and there are groups out there that roleplay Gor to the letter according to the books as well, but dont give a flying fuck about what some guy from another group has to say.

    theres always a way out and away from the computer. Gor is purely choice, just as is the rest of this collective, online fantasy world. Non concentual does not EXIST on Second Life.

    Like Gor or not, there is really nothing wrong with it as all players, men, women; kajiras, free women, slaves or panthers or whatever the terms are, are all playing by choice.

    Its all a game, a fantasy. So why even care?

  18. Corona

    Feb 26th, 2008

    Agreed davoner

    or at least not for very long without either disappearing from history – or evolving to a more gender equal and thus more stable society

    the Problem with the Gor fantasy – where are the old , the children, the less able bodied ?
    they have physicians – so inevitably some women would be stronger than some men
    and the whole premise collapses

  19. Mony Markova

    Feb 26th, 2008

    When I learned how they call the girls that have had sex I repulsed.. I am sorry some aspects I can understand but … saying that a woman has been “opened” it is just repulsive and retrograd to my personal opinion.

  20. Lucas

    Feb 26th, 2008

    @ Apocrypha

    I read your long post and you have good points. It is true that SOME females prefer the “traditional” role- the nurturer, housekeeper, ect. Certainly there are also many females that prefer to be sexually submissive. Not all, but obviously there is a good number, because otherwise Gor would not exist.

    But even though you make a good point, you aren’t actually defending Gor from anything it has been accused of. Women can fill the traditional role without being slaves. Being submission and being owned by another human being is two very different things. Wanting to be a stay-at-home mom doesn’t mean “please rape me.”

    The post right below yours makes a good point. Free Women in Gor have to cover their faces, and do not have the same rights as men… why? Because females who aren’t slaves are less worthy than men? That is the part of Gor culture that most find disgusting… not the fact that women express femininity.

    And btw, it is a women’s choice if she wants to get a job and progress with a career or if she wants to stay at home and raise children. I know plenty of women who prefer that lifestyle. I can’t say I agree with their decision, but the point is that choice exists, and I think you are exaggerating about the goals of feminism. The stay-at-home mom is far from being stigmatized in American society.

    I also want to remind everyone that I do not hate Gor or believe it shouldn’t be practiced, but I personally find it offensive because it implies inequality between the sexes.

  21. Princess Ivory

    Feb 26th, 2008

    This is a very insightful conversation, from both sides of the issue. People are for the most part remaining respectful as they disagree. I appreciate that. My original post truly was seeking to understand, not to bash Gor.

    I guess I feel that the dichotomy between a freewoman who must remain totally covered (including a face veil) and a slave girl, who is scantily clad in nothing but a few pieces of strategically placed silk, and must cower at the feet of her master, a bit difficult to take. On the one hand, the freewoman appears to have the advantage in her freedom from dominance, and her ability to move about as she pleases. But she has no freedom to expose her face or body. Her femininity and desirability are hidden away. And then on the other hand, you have the slave girls. Their faces and bodies are completely on display as sexual creatures, but they have no freedom over their own lives. Yet both are women. They are so different, yet still so alike. Equally enslaved by the same system. It is an interesting contrast.

    I like the idea of not having to be a “feminist” in the sense of having/doing it all. A career, a home, a family, the works. It is an enormous responsibility, and you feel like you have to succeed at at all of it or you are a failure. Trying to have a career, and a family at the same time is next to impossible. We struggle along at it because the household needs the second income, but the children are neglected. I am curious to see what kind of adults and parents they become. From what I have observed of the young women I know, they hated daycare and being latchkey kids. They are marrying young, having families early, and staying home with the children. At least for now. I hope it can last. We can always return to our careers after our children are older, or grown.

    So to be in Gor, and be cherished and protected by a man sounds like a good thing, especially if you are coming to it from a RL where you were abused, or not respected. The important thing is that the Gorean men need to be aware of that. That many women have been abused, and turn to Gor because they feel they deserve abuse. Men of Gor, treat your women with the love and respect you claim to feel. Protect them. Make them feel safe. Be kind to them.

    Princess Ivory

  22. Puck Goodliffe

    Feb 27th, 2008

    On-line Gor men are always hilarious. I have never before met people so out of touch, so scared of real, human women, so utterly unable to handle criticism, it can be hysterical to wind them up and see how they go off like a sputtering little infant.

    Of course there are exceptions, but most of them just tend to be bitter, angry losers who play in a D&D-esque fantasy world that just happens to involve bondage and rape.

    Like all stupid people that fill my life with such merriment, I thank God for them – but ladies, if your man thinks that humiliating you in front of others is an acceptable way to treat you, then drop his ass and get a real man.

    - Puck

  23. Puck Goodliffe

    Feb 27th, 2008

    Oops, I was in error. On-line Gor men are equaled by fundie religious nuts in sheer nuttiness. My apologies.

  24. Artemis Fate

    Feb 27th, 2008

    “Gone are the days in which any man could afford a wife, three children, home and car on a single income.”

    I don’t believe that’s true. Pay wages haven’t changed, just standard of living has gone up, where one parent could only afford so much and that would be normal and everyone would be happy with that, two parents could afford much more, and with many Mothers and Fathers working today, being able to afford that large house in the suburbs with 3 cars seems normal. There are certainly still plenty of single parents, and stay at home moms that manage to get by on only one salary. It’s not that they couldn’t afford on one salary what they could before, it’s that they can’t afford on one salary what most people have now through two salaries.

    “I guess I feel that the dichotomy between a freewoman who must remain totally covered (including a face veil) and a slave girl, who is scantily clad in nothing but a few pieces of strategically placed silk, and must cower at the feet of her master, a bit difficult to take.”

    As I see it, and how it’s specifically outlined throughout the books, is that the ironically named “Free woman” is just in a different kind of slavery. They’re not owned by one master, they’re owned by the entire society of men, like I said, the REAL free-woman outfit as per the books, is a burqa. And, like in the middle east, a Woman may for no reason remove any bit of it without risking being beaten to death or enslaved. The free women are certainly not free, they’re forced to wear burqas and they’re forced into certain behaviors, the diametrically opposite behavior of the slaves, that is that they are supposed to be cold and assexual, any display of romantics or sexual interest is seen as the Free woman wanting to be enslaved, and they will be for it. Free Women always talk about how respected they are, but riding that edge of either obey the unrealistic and oppressive demands of a male society on gender, or be forced into a life of servitude for being yourself, does not translate into either a concept of freedom or respect for me.

  25. Sakkara Quamar

    Feb 28th, 2008

    The logic of FreeWoman of the citys covering thier faces comes from the simple fact that if they had an uncovered face and are beautiful they are more at risk of being kidnaped and enslaved. If they are covered the slaver etc may not wish rto take the risk capturing a woman who is ugly as sin.

    Woman are subservent to men of Gor because men can enslave them, though that only happens under the extreme of circumstances, women are respected and cared for. Of course the books are nothing like online. That first picture up the top. If that happened in the books the men would have been executed or exiled for treating a FW in that way.

  26. Corona

    Feb 28th, 2008

    The dichotomy between free and slave women also highlights one of the flaws in the fantasy

    In the real world full coverage was a cultural mechanism.

    A raiding party form a hostile tribe would find it harder to distinguish the more physically attractive women from the older /less attractive ( which happens in RL – unlike in Gor sims)- within the limited time available before a raiding party would flee

    in Gor the same type of raids would theoretically exist- ye there the women are on full display
    it doesent work

    RE “they are supposed to be cold and assexual, any display of romantics or sexual interest is seen as the Free woman wanting to be enslaved, and they will be for it.”

    worht looking into Albanian concept of ‘sworn virgins’ for an interesting RL parallel to this

  27. Archie Lukas

    Feb 28th, 2008

    S’okay to be a feminist fing Gor men objectionable

    I am a full blooded man with documented fertility who finds Gor males the scum of the earth.

    Bully boy RL wimps with little dicks who like to pretend to be 6-pack macho men.

    /Archie drops his trews and shows his hairy bum to the wimpy boys of Gor.

  28. Chav Paderborn

    Feb 29th, 2008

    “Slaves are free to be women, to be free in their sexuality and in giving themselves to their owner.”

    In other words, the defining feature of a woman is her availability for sex with men.

    You can’t be both feminist and Gorean, though you can play at it if you feel the urge.

  29. Marty

    Mar 3rd, 2008

    Theses are peoples personal preferences, I dont see anything wrong with Gor. If its what people want then fair enough, yes there is an underbelly of abuse however where do it start being abuse and when does it stop. There are PLENTY of very strong woman in Gor .. both RL strong and in game even though they do tend to stay more in the “merc” camp than Kajira and free. Panthers again tend to be in a world by themselves.
    Im not really interested in wether people agree with it…. its ROLEPLAY. If you dont like it …get out, if you do like it stay. Most importantly is the power to choose and allthough theres somethings i might not agree to so i dont do it or get involved with it… but the idea that theres these poor woman being manipulated into servitude is slightly obsurd … i know because i know of MANY who have RL Jobs of high position and stress…and all they really want to do …. is just be a girl for a little bit.

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