It Has To Be Said: No Men Allowed
by Jessica Holyoke on 30/07/10 at 9:18 pm
I have been walking around a few different sims looking for feminist leaning cafes and the like. When looking for a feminist cafe, more often than not I run into clubs that says in big, huge letters "No Men." And really, those signs are saying "no male typists", not, "no male avatars". Now obviously, this is incredibly discriminatory. However, there is a good question as to whether a sim that is open to the public – except for men – is the same thing as a public place in the real world, subject to the same anti-discrimination laws.
Although I brought all of this up before, when a friend came over to visit I realized something new. Some readers might not know I was an SL whore for a long time, and was even mentioned on the CBS Early Show. At the end of my tenure, I was the hiring manager for a SL strip club called the PinkPussy Cat.
In looking to see if my friend and former co-worker’s application was still in my files, I noticed the old policy manual and looked into it for nostalgia’s sake. Inside was a policy statement on transgendered avatars which stated that the club didn’t care if you were a man or a woman in RL, just so long as you were consistent in that choice. Being a woman one day and the man the next inside the club wouldn’t fly. Now wipe the shock off your face, there were men possessing female avatars. And no, I won’t tell you who.
Possessing – I think I like that term. I possess my avatar, as opposed to run or operate.
When voice came to the Grid, it was a big deal – you could tell that your female stripper was actually a female in RL. But even before that point, there were clubs who either solely selected female typists or did not ever want to know differently.
But being a female or male stripper in SL isn’t at all like working at Hooters or being in a movie. Just because a typist is a woman, it doesn’t mean she’s a great SL stripper. Also just because there is an 18 year old size 4 stripper on your screen, doesn’t mean you have an 18 year old size 4 stripper possessing the avatar.
If SL strip clubs are really about generating content, disregard the behavior arguments, independent contracting, and other policy implications of the people working onstage. If the SL strip club is only selecting women typists to be female strippers, what you have is blatant employment gender discrimination.
If the avatar is only a content driven animation, it doesn’t matter who possesses the avatar. All you need to do for the job is to shop at the right places, know how to interact with people, and type and write with reasonable skill. You don’t have to *be* a woman to know how to possess a female stripper avatar, and a man isn’t suddenly gay because he read a story written by another guy.
Really, if you are looking at SL as a behavior medium, I can still argue that no men allowed policies are discrimination due to gender expression which does not fundamentally affect the good or service. Of course, no government agency, or attorney for that matter, would go after one of these clubs to enforce non-discrimination laws because of all the issues that pop up in prosecuting virtual world providers. But this doesn’t make discrimination right.
A fun example my Mom once told me about concerned a male ex-Marine who had a feminine enough voice that he was able to work as a phone sex operator catering to men who wanted women. Again, its the skills for the job, not the equipment, that matters.
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
Thank you, someone finally addresses the legality of protected-class discrimination in virtual worlds.
Just because you won’t get prosecuted for it doesn’t mean it’s not wrong.
Raven Haalan
Aug 3rd, 2010
Cool post. I think you can go nuts worrying too much about the nature of a typist in virtual spaces..
(btw, for my taste on terminology, I say a typist “projects” an avatar into the metaverse… just my taste)
Al the Pretender
Aug 3rd, 2010
Another thing is the SL lesbian clubs the forbidd men avatars of entering unlike gay SL clubs that allow everyone.
And when they come with the same old stale excuse “oh most of us were abused by a man when younger”….Get a grip! Most of you made a choice! Those that were abused by a guy Physically are a small percentage. Thats not a reason to make all guys “Evil Doers”. Most of you are a guy RL or a straight married woman getting her kicks.
Rawst Berry
Aug 3rd, 2010
Just the other day I TPed to a sim, which said nothing about being female-only in the description, but as soon as I rezzed I got a blue pop-up saying females only.
I thought to myself, Seriously? It would take 5 seconds for me to put on a female shape and they’d never know the difference. ~.~ Gender discrimination on SL is akin to discrimination based on shirt color irl. (And I wonder what is their stance on irl females using male avatars?)
My friend says if you pay for land you have a right to decide who is on it. True I guess, but if you kick someone out of your house for how they look rather than they were causing trouble, you’re still labeled an asshole.
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Rawst Berry
Technically it’s private property, so yeah, you can kick whoever you like. But yes, the question is, would you want to look like an asshole in doing so?
ra ra rasputin
Aug 3rd, 2010
Best article in here since a looong time. And i totally agree on the shirt color comparison. If I am inWorld I becoma what i want, heck even what i feel like atm. May it be a man, a girl or even a bug! Such people must be really arses to think they cann tell me one from another.
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
“Of course, no government agency, or attorney for that matter, would go after one of these clubs to enforce non-discrimination laws because of all the issues that pop up in prosecuting virtual world providers.”
Like for instance, all the reasons that make this article another version of leftists in SL wanting to impose their political agendas on everyone with the flimsiest arguments that would never hold up in any court where there are actual standards for debate.
In a virtual world, land is cheap and plentiful, and travel is done in a matter of seconds (TP failures aside.) Therefore, if women or any other group want to create a space that caters only to that group and denies others access, it in no way harms the groups that are being excluded. They can easily do the exact same thing for their own group should they choose to do so.
To compare it to “discrimination” is the typical hyperbole of the left in which anytime people live by values that don’t adhere to their dogma, they create gross exaggerations that turn their intolerance into righteous crusades. What they ultimately end up doing is trivializing real discrimination in RL, which is a testament to the fact that people on the left only care about the oppressed when they can use them to further their own agendas.
Oh, if those who suffered under Jim Crow knew that today those sad oppressed souls with their male avatars couldn’t get into lesbian clubs in SL, they would wail over the knowledge that their struggle would continue into the next century!
Essentially, what this article does is exploit RL atrocities for a pointless crusade. If I don’t want men on my property, I should have every right to forbid anyone I choose on any criteria I choose in a world where anyone can go anywhere and just about anyone can own land.
For the record, I don’t have any restrictions on who can come onto my land. (Other than hippies, but no one cares about them anyway.) But I do value that my space is my own. And having someone compare my personal choice with how I use the space I rightfully and legally control to discrimination is very revealing about the intolerance of the left. You guys simply cannot tolerate the thought that others do not live by your values.
Well, deal with it.
JustMe
Aug 3rd, 2010
The “girl only” places are extremely strict with that rule , although they obviously can’t tell if the typist is male or female. I’ve asked a few times why this is and got answers like “we want privacy” or “we feel more comfortable without men around” or “we prefer the company of women”.
But , yes, as someone mentioned, the guys gay clubs welcome everyone. I know a guy who used to take his dates (female) to a gay club because the people there were friendlier than in most other places. I wonder why the reasons given for the ‘ban’ in the female only areas aren’t valid in male gay areas ? Don’t guys want privacy , prefer the company of men, or feel more comfortable without women around ?
Rawst Berry
Aug 3rd, 2010
@Just Me
It’s because if women were excluded there would be a huge shit-storm about sexism. People look the other way if its the same situation but discriminating against men.
marilyn murphy
Aug 3rd, 2010
i agree somewhat with persephone, altho not so stridently yelling at the leftist thought process. surely in my desire for fairness and considering the thoughts of others i can allow leftist arguements to hang around. i simply hope they can grow out of it at some point.
“a young person who is not liberal has no heart. an older person who is not conservative has no brain.” winston churchill.
justme has the more interesting point. i have been to the women only clubs and wondered why the male bashing/fear/uncomfortable with them/mind set? for one thing, lesbians are a minority group. so how can it be possible for such a huge population of female avatars to be lesbian? did the word go out to all the lesbians in the world that sl was the place to go hang? not. so conservatively guessing half the “females” at the womens only places are guys in drag, whats the point of the female only thing at all?
i dont go to those places any more and havent for some time due to the public sex going on between female avatars that is so grossly obvious some guy is having a lesbian fantasy with some other guy. ugh.
Jill
Aug 3rd, 2010
I prefer to visit the girl only clubs.This is because it is refreshing to dance and listen to music without being bothered by the horndogs who have escaped from zindra, asking me for sex every two minutes. If the adolescent little boys could keep their hormones in check, such clubs would not be needed.
In RL there are girls only fitness centers that have stood up to legal challenges.
Yep
Aug 3rd, 2010
I have been to female only clubs and have seen no sex. I like these types of clubs because it is nice to enjoy myself without being bothered by some perverted dork who needs to find a RL GF ( if he isn’t such a dork and can) asking me for sex every other minute. Then to make matters worse, cannot take no for an answer.
In SL when a girl says no to sex that rerally seems to mean ” yes go ahead and whine to me in IM, bump into me, and impress me with your huge freebee prim penis.”
If the little pervie boys could act like adults, such clubs would not be needed.
You have your gutter (Zindra) for having loser sex. Keep it there so the rest of us don’t have to see it.
Yep
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Al the pretender
“And when they come with the same old stale excuse “oh most of us were abused by a man when younger”….”
ok using this logic. Are you now attracted to women because you were abused by men in a homosexual relationship when you were younger? Grow up little boy.
There are many clubs that do not allow laggy fur fags, child avatars,nude dorks wearing a prim penis or loser boy goreans with some dimwit pretending to be a girl wearing a leash and a coller.
Inniatzo
Aug 3rd, 2010
if you look at a RL strip club you see women prancing about on the poles and all that. if you look at models for a RL manufacturer of men’s shirts you see male models. if a RL TV show wants to cast a part for the ‘hot chick’ they don’t have to consider men. so, in certain circumstances employers can require the employees to be of one gender or not.
you’re right in SL that, at least in theory, it doesn’t matter who is typing as long as they present as the required sex. however, there are strip clubs and escort places that advertise based on having ‘verified females’, presumably through voice. so, these places by the get to pick and choose who they want, and so pick women.
but all of this is rather moot. i am hardly an expert, but i doubt that a stripper ‘job’ in sl is something that falls under general employment law.
and as for lesbian areas banning men, the reason is pretty simple : guys who show up in that environment are there to cause trouble (if only to stand around and watch the girl-girl stuff), not all of them, perhaps, but enough to make an outright ban a reasonable response. i doubt the reverse is true and that there a lot of women running around causing trouble at gay sims.
don’t get me wrong, discrimination in RL – especially the disparity of salaries between genders is a very real problem. i’m not trying to minimize that, or any other form of RL discrimination. but i just don’t see any of this as being a problem (or a legal issue) in SL.
AM Oderngrl
Aug 3rd, 2010
You don’t have to be a lesbian to be a feminist.
You don’t have to be a lesbian or a feminist or even female to want a nice break from the general SL horndog environment.
You don’t have to be LGBT to play with gender in virtual worlds.
In fact, you don’t have to be be age verified and have your settings set for Adult to get thrown into an Adult “safe hub” in SL when your home sim is down. Work on that, would you, Phil?
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@AM Oderngrl “You don’t have to be a lesbian or a feminist or even female to want a nice break from the general SL horndog environment.”
I can’t understand why you and others here are trying to justify the discrimination rather than questioning whether or not it can even be classified as such. Like I pointed out, such exclusion does not hurt anyone in SL and it cannot be considered discrimination, regardless of the rationale behind it.
Even if a female supremacist group that considers men to be an inferior gender banned men from their legally owned land, it can’t be discrimination. I agree such an attitude is repulsive and hypocritical, but it’s not like chauvinists couldn’t set up their own sim if they wanted.
If Catholics started their own sim, should they be forced to allow people who worship Satan to come in with T-shirts proclaiming their love for the Prince of Darkness? (Which would make for a pretty cool shirt by the way.) They do consider themselves morally superior to Satanists. Is that discrimination?
It doesn’t matter what the reasons for exclusion are, the debate over discrimination in RL simply doesn’t apply in SL because mobility from one sim to another is simple and free. And land ownership is well within the realistic financial possibilities of most SL users. Therefore, you can’t argue that any group would have any real trouble creating their own exclusive space if they chose to do so.
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Persephone Bolero
If land ownership is “well within the realistic financial possibilities of most SL users”, why doesn’t everyone own land? Oh, that’s right, unless you own a business or actually spend money buying L$ spacebux, you can’t rent anything, much less afford US$1000 and US$300 a month for a whole region. And don’t say “oh well, people can buy homesteads and openspaces” because you know as well as I do that both of those options are worthless.
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@Nelson “why doesn’t everyone own land?”
Because many users don’t feel it’s worth it. And you don’t need to buy a whole region. For as little as $10USD a month, you can find a nice 512 parcel and ban whomever you want.
Furthermore, if you can’t afford the $10USD a month for the parcel, a group of people surely can pool their resources together to accomplish that. If they can’t, then chances are, they don’t have the resources to get on the internet in the first place.
So, you’re counter argument falls pretty flat.
And if fails to answer the other question. What if a Catholic group wanted to ban Satanists. Is that discrimination? Why not? How can you compare group exclusivity with discrimination? Shouldn’t groups of people be able to define their own space? Why should we intrude upon that simply because we don’t share their values?
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Persephone Bolero
You didn’t read my whole argument. I pointed out that anyone that spends any money on SL is wasting it. I don’t understand the appeal of paying US$10 for a virtual sandbox that you don’t actually own. If you wanted that, you could just run your own OpenSim, and then you wouldn’t have to worry about ANYONE being on your land.
Now, most people in SL that don’t have jobs certainly aren’t going to suddenly come up with L$3,000 a month for a 512 parcel. I know back when I was a noob, the only time I’d seen L$1,000 was when I photoshopped a screenshot of my client.
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@Nelson “Now, most people in SL that don’t have jobs certainly aren’t going to suddenly come up with L$3,000 a month for a 512 parcel.”
What does this have to do with discrimination and group exclusivity? As I said, most people simply choose not to own land. Obviously, they make a personal choice not to. If they did want a group space, they could get one. So, what exactly is your point in relationship to the topic?
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Persephone Bolero
I think everyone should own land, but that doesn’t mean that everyone can. I thought I just made that abundantly clear to you.
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@Nelson “I think everyone should own land, but that doesn’t mean that everyone can. I thought I just made that abundantly clear to you.”
Well, thanks for your unrealistic and impractical Utopian visions. I think it would be wonderful if everyone was born disease-free with two arms, two legs, all 10 digits, and all 5 senses. They’re not, and God won’t return my calls. So, there we are.
Anyhoo…none of that has anything to do with whether or not people who do choose own land should have every right to decide who can and can’t enter it.
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Persephone Bolero
You know who else had unrealistic and impractical Utopian visions?
Hitler.
Gaara Sandalwood
Aug 3rd, 2010
On no one’s side really, just putting my two cents in.
I work at a non-adult club in SL(mature, but not adult), at first out of boredom and now a year later I’m actually pretty much friends with all of my regular co-workers. I’ve worn female avatars before, I think some are actually pretty damn good looking. But I do keep it known to pretty much everyone that knows me that I’m a guy.
I dunno what kind of club PPC is myself, never been there. I guess I’ll visit, and check it out later, and hopefully I’ll be greeted by something besides an all caps spewing host that goes “HEY THERE. WELCOME.”. That aside, I don’t see much wrong with this whole female only thing. It’s not wrong. Not exactly good for business in some situations, but not wrong. There was a club I visited once, called Kama Sutra. I was immediately banned from it soon after arriving because the owner thought saying comments in public chat during the reading time they were having, that involved female hosts saying sex stories over voice chat to a group of listeners, and I am serious, was griefing. That aside, after speaking to the non-moving owners of the club, I looked into their charter a bit. They had a rule at the club, that only voice verified females were allowed to join the club as hosts. I guess a way of making sure they weren’t hiring guys, or something. Anyway, I dunno how well they’re doing at the moment, but basically, from the looks of it, they focused all availables towards hosts instead of spreading everything out in various categories, which would make sense.
Some SL clubs get understaffed because they try to spread the categories of employment too thin, choosing to have DJs and Security, and Hosts and such, to the point where regular workers in one area have to have a position in two, sometimes three, just to help cover on a regular basis. CC ad to drop dancers because of that, because they had the least amount of work to do and they needed more people for the more necessary positions. Don’t get me wrong, I love security work. CC is probably the only club I’ve been to that actually employs security, and it’s fun. But I think those clubs that restrict it to hosts, or hosts and dancers, and keep it small, do so to keep from being understaffed, or for the lack of feeling that they need a lot to keep things smooth.
Also, SL club host stripper nudity=3D hentai. Just wanted to say that last part.
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Gaara Sandalwood
“SL club host stripper nudity=a joke”
Fixed.
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@Gaara “SL club host stripper nudity=3D hentai”
I had to google that term. Hahaha…Pornographers sure are an innovative bunch.
Darien Caldwell
Aug 3rd, 2010
There are male only and female only clubs in RL. And it’s 100% legal. Certainly then it’s just as legal in SL as well. Freedom of association works both ways. You have just as much right to *not* associate with people you don’t like, as to associate with people you do.
And most reasonable people would not want to be somewhere they aren’t wanted. But SL certainly has it’s share of unreasonable people.
To try to call this, or similar things (like the recent thread about people banning short AVs) discrimination, is a huge stretch, and yet another grab for power by the Politically Correct Brigade.
We
Aug 3rd, 2010
As much as I disagree with Persephone and her ridiculous libertarian agenda, I agree with her here (save for all the weird and unnecessary jabs at liberals). It’s their land, if they want to ban male avatars, female avatars, people wearing purple, whatever. Discrimination can only happen over something you have no choice over. Being a different skin color, being a different gender, etc. But in SL, just about everything on your avatar is a choice. Trying to claim it’s discrimination is trivalizing actual discrimination.
Incidentally, in my experience I’ve found that the lesbian “NO MEN ALLOWED” areas to be ironically populated by highly homophobic men playing female avatars.
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ We
You have a point, yes, which is why I have a variety of different avatars (both male and female, even though my name is obviously male). It’s moreso of a problem when people discriminate based on RL traits.
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ We “save for all the weird and unnecessary jabs at liberals”
Sounds like more socialist propaganda to me.
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Persephone Bolero
Persistent troll is persistent.
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@Nelson “Persistent troll is persistent.”
Weren’t you the one that brought up Hitler?
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Persephone Bolero
You know who else made weird and unnecessary jabs at liberals?
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@Nelson You know who else beat dead horses? I mean beside you?
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 3rd, 2010
@ Persephone Bolero
You know who else made long-drawn out flamewars on the internet?
Persephone Bolero
Aug 3rd, 2010
@Nelson “You know who else made long-drawn out flamewars on the internet?”
What’s a long-drawn?
Gaara Sandalwood
Aug 3rd, 2010
““SL club host stripper nudity=a joke”
Fixed.”
I never said it wasn’t poorly done.
“Discrimination can only happen over something you have no choice over. Being a different skin color, being a different gender, etc. But in SL, just about everything on your avatar is a choice. Trying to claim it’s discrimination is trivalizing actual discrimination.”
Eh, I’m not really that anti-discrimination irl anyway. Which reminds me, the Hasslehoff Roast is up soon. Only 12 more days.
“Incidentally, in my experience I’ve found that the lesbian “NO MEN ALLOWED” areas to be ironically populated by highly homophobic men playing female avatars.”
The weird part is, I openly admit I’m a guy to clear things up, ’cause I’ve literally confused people with my rapidly changing avatar choices.
I have seen though, the people that try to make everyone believe they are female. Sometimes it’s fun to sit back and watch, waiting to see if they mess up at any given point.
“Sounds like more socialist propaganda to me.”
But before you said liberal and leftist and…….fuck it. Politics is not my specialty.
Emperor Norton hears a who?
Aug 3rd, 2010
Wake up people!
When these socialist net-activist go goose stepping across the grid to carry out their Final Solution to eradicate capitalism and create some virtual hippie utopia the Women ONLY cluibs may be our only defense against the Swedish nightmare they want to inflict on us.
The Left is out of control in this country; look what they did to the hard working Americans of BP; they destroyed that company over just one lousy little mistake.
Do you really think your sim is safe after that?
What until you are paying a VAT tax comrade.
Jill
Aug 3rd, 2010
So true, they do not allow the skinny ,timid, little, gorean (virgin in RL) boys who wear a 7ft tall av into girls only clubs.
Little worms like this practice discrimination when they treat women as objects that they own. In reality, they probibly get bullied by their little sisters in RL .Also they would walk with their heads down in the hallways at school as to not see the looks of disgust on the girls faces when they pass by.
Gaara Sandalwood
Aug 3rd, 2010
“So true, they do not allow the skinny ,timid, little, gorean (virgin in RL) boys who wear a 7ft tall av into girls only clubs.
Little worms like this practice discrimination when they treat women as objects that they own. In reality, they probibly get bullied by their little sisters in RL .Also they would walk with their heads down in the hallways at school as to not see the looks of disgust on the girls faces when they pass by.”
Shut the fuck up and go make me a sandwich.
Pappy Enoch
Aug 4th, 2010
“Little worms like this practice discrimination when they treat women as objects that they own.”
Jill, as a RL hillbilly supermodel livin’ on Omar Sharif’s yacht in Monaco, I cain’t agree more.
We gals has a tarrible time bein’ treated as objects (except by fellers like my hunk o’ burnin’ falafel luv, Omar).
Now I were corn-siderin’ bein’ a gal in SL, but it are too cruel with fellers makin’ googly eyes at me an’ whatnot already IRL.
Omar done murdered about 10 o’ them boys last year and dumped ‘em over the side. I were afraid he’d git him a avatar an’ start killin’ fake boys, too.
Serendipity Seraph
Aug 4th, 2010
Well, I am against discrimination as a bad thing and you make good arguments that the RL gender of a stripper is irrelevant. But, I am also pro-freedom. If the owner of some club or enterprise wants to make some rule or another I may not like it. But they have every right to do so. Otherwise both freedom and ownership is a sham. And how far does anti-discrimination go? What if you really want your SL lover to be “possessed” by a member of a particular gender? I don’t care that much (I am lesbian in both worlds btw.) myself but some do. Would you also tell them they were doing something wrong and practicing discrimination? No? So why is it actionable discrimination when it is a bit less intimate like being employed by a stripper club? At the best that is inconsistent.
Yep
Aug 4th, 2010
Gaara Sandalwood
“Shut the fck up and go make me a sandwich.”
Spoken by a true dork that only a mother could love.
Jessica Holyoke
Aug 4th, 2010
Because I’ve seen a few different comments and I want to be clear, at no time was I talking about discrimination due to a person’s AVATAR. That is not what this article is about.
Also, I’m not talking about CONDUCT, which is what a number of people counter with; we don’t want horndogs, goreans, or public sex therefore we must ban men. You ban the conduct, not the gender.
But when a sim says they want “NO MEN” and they refer to the typist/person behind the screen, then it is discriminatory. The access is controlled by a person’s real life gender. Simply saying that there are other sims that they can go to does not eliminate the fact that the action is discriminatory. Whether or not its actionable or allowable is a complex issue, even for real life institutions. (Augusta, Boy Scouts, Curves).
Where I was going with the article is that we have one of the quickest ways to make money in SL with the lowest cost of entry potentially being blocked to an entire gender. (Sorry, whoring is a quick way to make money with a low entry cost.)
The point is, to the many libertarians in the audience, is that sometimes governments have public policies that run counter to pure freedom for a reason. Discrimination, for better or worse, is one of those policies. (And we can have a long, flaming talk about all sorts of anti-discriminatory policies.) Employing only women and advertising that you will employ only women for no discernible reason is discrimination. Hooters has a discernible reason to only hire women for their wait staff. Hooters does hire men for different roles. The issue with the SL clubs hiring *only* women is no different from a gaming company that openly states that they will employ only men where there is no good reason for only employing men.
Little Lost Linden
Aug 4th, 2010
If you ever run into that situation where someone suspects you aren’t the kind of typist you are supposed to be and they confront you on it, just tell them that you are a Lemming.
I don’t think Lemmings have such things as genders:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/Lemmings-BoxScan.jpg
Persephone Bolero
Aug 4th, 2010
@Jessica “Discrimination, for better or worse, is one of those policies.”
You’re still making a comparison between RL discrimination in RL places and discrimination in SL. Whether or not it’s based on RL gender is irrelevant.
Discrimination in public places in RL can have significant wide-reaching social and economic impacts on a person. It’s not easy to set up a club (or other public establishment), transportation between them is not a split-second matter, and land is very, very expensive.
Discriminating on whether or not an RL man can enter an SL lesbian club is simply not the same thing. He could easily set up his own club for very little expense. In a matter of seconds at absolutely no cost, he could also TP to a club that permits men. So, describe what HARM comes from a club owner discriminating against RL genders.
See, that’s why governments do develop policies that limit individual liberty when it comes to cases of discrimination. They shouldn’t do it because someone does something that’s unpopular. After all, popular ideas and practices do not need protections from government intrusions. It’s precisely those values and practices that are unpopular but harm no one that need protections.
Discrimination in RL causes real measurable harm. It has an ugly history that caused a lot of pain and suffering. What pain and suffering are RL men experiencing by not being able to enter lesbian clubs? If you can’t point to any besides hurt feelings or denied sexual experiences, then I would say that your comparison to RL discrimination is gross exaggeration.
Jessica Holyoke
Aug 4th, 2010
@Persephone
So basically a wrong has to be damaging to a point more than emotional damage for it to actually *be* wrong.
And again missing the point. The main point was in the employment point of view, not the lesbian club example. Notice I said, its a complex issue and probably alright. Seriously, why does everyone have lesbians on the brain?
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 4th, 2010
@ Jessica Holyoke
Because everyone posting here is a 40-year-old fat guy living off of welfare that plays SL through a lesbian female avatar.
Gaara Sandalwood
Aug 4th, 2010
“Spoken by a true dork that only a mother could love.”
It’s called sarcasm. And how did you leave the “u” out(unless intentionally)?
We
Aug 4th, 2010
Go into one of those places with a shemale avatar, and see if their brains start to smoke.