Wells Fargo Harnesses FIC Labor for Stagecoach Island
by Alphaville Herald on 24/09/05 at 11:10 am
A few days ago Clickable Culture reported the opening of Stagecoach Island, a private island built expressly for Wells Fargo, and not accessible via the mainland. It’s stated goal is to “help young people learn financial responsibility” (translation: the goal is to establish brand loyalty at an early age). Now our friend Daniel Terdiman has fleshed out the details a bit, confirming that the project was built by FIC labor. From the article:
According to David Fleck, Linden Lab’s vice president of marketing, all of the design and programming work for Stagecoach Island was done by “Second Life” members.
“The core development was done by developers in ‘Second Life,’” Fleck said, “that run successful businesses and have great design skills based on our tool set.”
Our friends Julian Dibbell and Betsy Book also get quoted, Betsy providing some insight into why you need to go inner core for a project like this:
“They have to trust their members and who they refer this company to. You’re talking about big brand names, and you want to make sure they’re professionals.”
Urizenus
Sep 24th, 2005
I should have included a link to the Bedazzled Site, which did the dev work on this (or at least some significant portion). Here ya go…
http://bedazzle.grfx.at/portal/index.php
Prokofy Neva
Sep 24th, 2005
Here’s another one of those examples where everybody writes everybody else’s book jack blurbs because they’re all in the same little circle. You will recall that my final post at SL that tipped the scale to get me permbanned was a sarcastic take on Pathfinder recommending Betsy Book…who recommended….guess who…Cubey Terra and Aimee Weber…as the branding magicians of SL. Well, uh, I took a look at that, I gave credit where credit was due but I also pointed out that these were people who had just learned how to brand in a MMORPG-besotted culture with avatar names and looks and that might not port so well as bigger and better and more professionals come in the door.
I find it hilarious to watch the FICification of Eggy Lippman. Eggy is just Eggy. Of course, Eggy is one of those guys who used to whine a lot about how the rich excesses of Americans in SL buying private islands and whatnot utterly dwarfed an average engineer’s salary in little European countries. OK, well, such is the way of the world, and such is the way of the Internet that people who are living lives of quiet desparation in frustrated obscurity can rocket to fame with their skills on the Internet, which is a great leveler of race, class, gender, origin, etc. Except…it isn’t always LOL. And so RL-type frictions happen. And one thing that happens when the Lindens fete the inner core made up of Internet-merit-based types is that they are often secretive and defensive and won’t face public scrutiny — and justification to the public that they really are all that. Of course, this can be a matter of taste, but I’m hearing people complain when they look at the Stagecoach builds’ picture in GALLERY (or even on this site), they aren’t that impressive. They don’t get it. How did they get to be the ones to do this build, etc.
And that’s just it — the inner core is supposedly demonstratively excellent and we’re all just supposed to grok it in that sort of faith-based acceptance of imminence that is actually back of a lot of the scientific shield that the FIC tekkies hold up. And if you question the received wisdom about its excellent…well, you must be just jealous.
We’re not at all sure that these people run successful businesses because we can’t really tell…there’s a vicious circle of them getting feting, getting media coverage and jobs because they’re feting, which drives traffic to their lots…but you can’t be sure it’s not all a bubble.
Oh well, the more I see of this, the more I realize it involves that kind of grim tenaciousness of the provincial — and often mediocre mind — and it will be well nigh impossible to decouple…until, as Cocoanut put it very well, “Just wait til the world grows…” LOL.
BTW, the story neglects the other interesting bit that 20 vendors — the FIC’s own buddies and stuff — were invited in to do the Stagecoach vending. Well, of course!
Cocoanut thinks this kind of self-dealing can be fixed by a more democratic Development Directory. I’m willing to work for that, but I simply doubt that anything but this blatant throwing of deals will continue to go on — and it will always go on in the name of excellent and professionalism that we can’t really check LOL….because it’s on a secret sim ROFL.
Roberta Dalek
Sep 25th, 2005
Looking at the promo video the only clothing brand I recognise is Mischief – and I wouldn’t say she was FIC.
Prokofy Neva
Sep 25th, 2005
What, Roberta, Aimee didn’t get in on this deal lol? But surely you recognize that Bedazzled is FIC…that Baccara and all the rest mentioned on the website are FIC? Huh? Go look at the link Uri provided. I wouldn’t really have put Eggy down to FIC because he often going against the tide, but he is an older player with skills which would make him FIC material. Still, I don’t say that all older players are FIC and all FIC are necessarily unmerited FIC or event evil FIC, as some of the forum-five-percenters are.
He’s one of only two people who ever came and apologized to me for the nastiness on the forums — now you don’t get that kind of morality and decency in this game everyday!. But Eggy needs to look out for Eggy, like anybody trying to do business in SL. He’s worked especially hard at buttering up Ulrika (this is a mystery to me but I’ll chalk it up to vestigal love of socialism). Eggy’s probably a good coder. He seems to be a good builder, too. Maybe excellence is chosen and excellence does prevail? But how can we tell, on a secret sim?
Joe Public
Sep 25th, 2005
Prok, why don’t you just Fic off?
Bitter, twisted crotchty old luddite fuck that you are.
Antje
Sep 26th, 2005
Prok says >>> “You will recall that my final post at SL that tipped the scale to get me permbanned was a sarcastic take on Pathfinder recommending Betsy Book”
I could swear that you just said the other day, it was calling Aimee a Prom Queen that got you banned? Which is it? The one that suits your current driveling and sniveling?
Yeah, we hear Cocoanutz threatening, foaming at the mouth, “There’s more like me coming!” Beside the obvious alts, where are they? Will they all end their sentences with “LOL” like Cocoanutz and Proktoexam?
Prokofy Neva
Sep 26th, 2005
If you go back and look at the SL forums, you’ll see that this thread started by Pathfinder touting Betsy Book’s article is *the same* thread in which I first pointed pointed out that this was a mutual admiration society and a closed circle in my first post responding, then in a subsequent post in the same thread also mentioned Aimee’s name was like a prom queen, Cubey’s name was futuristic but down to earth, etc.. It’s all in the same thread, duh. Go and read it. If you’re going to be so sophistic and literal-minded that you’re going to quibble about the difference between a literal post, and a post in the same thread, carry on about that somewhere else and spare us. BTW, on the same day I had a post called “Is SL Ready for Investment?” Well, somebody at the Lab must have thought the answer anybody would come to was “no,” which would explain why they refer to my banning as a “business decision” lol.
Janus Sartre
Sep 26th, 2005
Wow, more corporate whoring… It’s like Disneyland! But I expect that if W.F. Gets anything at all like a positive response to their presence we will see this as a start of a trend. Might not be all that bad, though, cause if Lindens are making money (well, more money) maybe they can get around to figuring out how to stabilize the market.
And on another front: There is a fine line between righteouly wielded indignation and just plain old middle-child syndrome.
If there are a group of designers or builders or whatever that have gotten a lot of gigs… there is a reason for it. Maybe it is not a fair reason for it… Those people stay there for the same, perhaps fair, perhaps unfair reasons.
The question you have to ask is, Are you upset they are there or upset you are not? And will sceaming about their privelege and your low post will not do much to change it, unless for the worse.
Just my $0.02.
Antje
Sep 26th, 2005
You mentioned a post, not a thread, this time and the last, so it is not incumbent upon me to go investigate, lol, duh. (Does it make me sound cooler if I add those INSIPID, juvenile “lols” and “duhs”?)
You claimed it was the post about Aimee, and now you’re claiming it was another post. It’s just another example of you’re convenient stretching and twisting of facts, and sometimes outright lies, which Aimee pointed out at length to you last week. She was dead on too.
Cocoanut
Sep 26th, 2005
There are more like me coming, Cienna.
coco
Prokofy Neva
Sep 26th, 2005
Go back and read the original thread, and you’ll see my original post and responses. Is there really any difference between a one separate post and another separate post that engenders a thread, which then has posts as people respond? Well, I would submit there is. Two posts within a thread are in the same vein; a post that is not in that thread and is a completely stand-alone post or thread is different. Two posts in one thread is what we are talking about; it is two posts within one thread that deal with the FIC topic and Aimee’s prom-queen name in particular. Does it really matter? This kind of literalism is not a thing that amounts to ‘catching someone in a lie”. I don’t “lie” if I speak of two posts in the same thread as “a post”. I just speak of conversation in which there is a back and forth. Geez, that’s pretty obvious. There’s no “twisting” here because it doesn’t matter. You have nothing to say, you can’t get to the point, you’re trumped in this argument, so you’re reduced to scrounging around in the weeds trying to find something to say. It’s pathetic.
Once again, there’s no middle child syndrome or jealousy here. I don’t build, and I don’t expect to be getting building contracts. I notice that the people who get them aren’t *necessarily* the best or the most qualified. So I *ask questions* because of the lack of demonstrative excellence and the secrecy. This is how a public acts in a free society.
Eggy Lippmann
Sep 29th, 2005
[elided by request of poster]
Prokofy Neva
Sep 29th, 2005
It’s a good thing my Lime Diet Coke was out of my hand, away from the keyboard when I read your post, Eggy. Your fascination with Ulrika has always bewildered me. She’s not “nice” Eggy. This must be just some hail-fellow-socialists-well-met sort of thing, or dark sexual attraction or something, but you’re simply not going to get me on the “nice” argument. It just doesn’t fly, comrade. You won’t get an argument from me on my “niceness mileage varying” either because I’m not nice and don’t pretend to be nice : )
I guess I just figure with Pathfinder constantly blathering about fun things in SL, and Torley in the game again, and people like Margaret Mfume who manage to be nice even while making a brilliantly scathing remark on the forums, there’s no objective *need* for me to be nice. Enough already.
Eggy, are you aware that the list you printed there — thanks! great sort of transparency we’ve been missing in this project ALL ALONG! — IS the FIC. That’s what the FIC *is* Eggy.
Were you smiling jovially to yourself when you wrote “there’s a fair share of less feted vendors in that sim” and then headed the list off with Aimee? Is there something um…NOT feted about Aimee that I”m missing LMFAO?
Moving along the list — thanks so much, Eggy! — I’d have to say that all the names on that list, with the exception of a few who might be alts anyway, or who are just friends of the existing known FIC — are FIC. And some of them are nasty on the forums, so they are five-percent-forum-FIC too. Some are people who make demonstrably excellent and cool things and don’t nag on the forums about how cool they are. Still, they’re FIC. They’re FIC, and the throwing of this Wells Fargo to them and their friends is what feting is all about. Feting is what makes the world go round in certain places. But in most liberal democratic societies, anyway, people begin to demand a certain amount of balance, and a certain amount of restraint on the automatic-feting propensities of things like governments, big corporations, major religions, etc.
That’s all.
Add to that the problem that some of these Feted Ones take on decided political — and sometimes really odious — positions. Like your “nice” friend Ulrika, who, if she had her way, would remove the 10 percent bonus for tier that probably Bedazzled if it has or had any mainland land groups, itself made use of (as Ulrika herself once made use of it, and never denounced as an exploiter of teh people when *she* had it ROLF).
Let’s take for example Aimee’s political positions:
o for prisons — a stigmatizing punishment of offenders in lieu of banning that names names by creating a visible public space where offenders can be seen — and further ridiculed and punished
o for prosecuting those such as newbies who sell freebies, when currently the Lindens have no policy on such activities as an “offense”
o for sliders that would make an opt-in as to whether a person would be bounced by a security script, meaning that a) griefers would have a way to slide themselves into griefing with impunity and b) scripters would have to think up even more aggressive ways then of getting rid of griefers and c) new people struggling with the concept of bouncing and sliding will have less protection than they would if the Lindens just had a desk policy (not a UI feature or a programming deprecation) to ban those who use bounce scripts — period.
o For herself on the pages of the Lindens’ website, at least 4 times (5 during special promotions) (or was it 3 and 4, have to check if she’s still gracing “new accounts”)
o For *first* being nominated to run for office, *then* articulating her position.
See, people think it’s all about the panties, or it’s all about the hatred, the vitrio, the jealousy — these false sins always being laid at my door.
No, it’s all about the feting, and the reason it’s all about the feting is because the feted have odious political positions and their feted status gives them a stump to push these agendas on the rest of us.
Joe Public
Sep 29th, 2005
You sound like a teenage girl who got passed over by the cool club…
I can’t understand how what you describe (automatic-feting???) is any different from how “normal” society works, whatver your opinion of it. ie: “It’s not what you know, it’s who you know”. This is a cross cultural standard in human behaviour since the stone age. It’s not rocker science and certainly not a new pattern. look at the recent indictment of Tom Delay.
Why should it be any different in a nascent business environment like SL? Is that your major thesis that underpins the billions of words you have hammered out?
Of course reuben linden (or whoever) is gonna cultivate certain people, he’s got to make his own work based performance outcomes look good and he’s obviously going to align himself with LL wannabees that make him (and his cv) look good. That’s not rocket science and certainly no major revelation. You call it feting, I call it human behaviour 101.
“See, people think it’s all about the panties,”
Well, on the evidence presented it certainly looks like you have an Aimee Weber bug or 2 lodged firmly up your arse.
Antje
Sep 30th, 2005
Exactly Joe.
Prok sounds more like a socialist all the time. He claims to love capitalism, yet can’t stand the way capitalism works! Nor does he understand its workings.
Note: Had Prok gotten into SL a couple years ago, we wouldn’t be here talking about this right now.
Hint: It’s called envy driven hypocrisy, with a very heavy dose of extreme narcissism. The way he self fetes is just pathetic. Talking about himself in the 3rd person. Responding to himself in the 3rd person. Even THANKING himself in the third person on his blog. If it weren’t so downright creepy, pathetic, and sad, it would be hysterically funny.
He gets all gushy and gooey with himself when talking about being a “new continent pioneer” and the like, wanting so desperately to be a pioneer of something, all the while hyperventilating when every time someone else, usually an older player than he, does the same…
Kisses -n- Hugs Prok, you really need them, by the wagonload apparently.
Come on Prok, your next 10,000 word entry awaits! Surely my 8 little paragraphs should keep you busy for a while!
Don’t forget to stop by Walgreens tomorrow, I think your scrip is ready!
Prokofy Neva
Sep 30th, 2005
I loathe socialism, I support capitalism, but because I’m a liberal and a democrat, I don’t support *crony capitalism* or *state capitalism and oligarchy* which is what we have in SL. I find it hilarious that every time I point out what the FIC is doing, someone tells me that this is how RL works, it’s not “what you know but who you know”. The reality of RL is that there are checks and balances on this tendency toward favouritism and corruption. There’s a free press (which we try to have here), there are regulations, there are congressional hearings, there are good practices like bidding a job out to at least three companies so that you can justify the bid in cost and productivity terms.
The Stagecoach job was just handed out…the feted one in this case just feted 20 others without really opening it up in any way to bids or even scrutiny (until Eggy leaked the list). Um, yeah, we realize “such is the way of the world” and absent any kind of free press, Congress, or courts, we *question it* and *that’s ok* in a free society. I question it not because I resent not having a panty store of my own, I’ve done quite well in life without it thank you very much LOL, but because I really have to wonder if these are really the *best* panties and if those who *do* make panties — and really excellent ones! — are also going to get a crack at this lucrative big business.
I guess you haven’t traveled around the world much. In some societies, to do business, you have to have huge amounts of bribery money at the ready, and also be willing to fill out paperwork from phalanxes of bureaucrats, each of whom has their hand out –having “blat” or connections in Russia is hugely important even to accomplish basic daily functions. There are some societies where you have to sit hours in the marketplace or the tea houses talking, bargaining, checking each other out, etc. In America, the culture is different, and it’s made up of all the people from these *other cultures* *fleeing them* and making *something different* which is more open and public and available, so that if I want to form a corporation, I send a standard piece of paper I can get off the Internet now with a standard fee to Maryland or whatever, and register my business as the first step — I don’t have to go to somebody’s brother-in-law I went to high school with or am in the same political party with, and then pay them $100 to get my papers handled.
Given that Philip is fiercely determined to protect the privacy of private islands (as seen by his answer to me in the WA the other night), holding the privacy of a Coke to be the privacy of a mom and pop prefab store, then he and he alone will be the gatekeeper between the businesses that come into SL, and their interaction with residents who might help them build their little corporate dreams on their islands. The vision of the world where certain people get to have the cool kitanas and the cool Black Sun Club with the cool stuff in it, and the rest of us walk around in gray avatars unable even to see the cool stuff, is taken straight out of “Snowcrash”.
I fail to see how I “talk in the third person” or “talk to myself” or “respond to myself” on my blog. Huh? Perhaps you’re accusing someone who writes there of being my alt? I don’t use alts on my blog, I’m not ashamed or afraid to be my SL identity like some are *cought*. If there’s somewhere on my blog where I write something like “the Prok phenom” or something, that’s just analysis, that’s not some persistent “talk in the third person” — I’d challenge you to find links.
It’s funny that this stalker has such a dearth of a second life that they have to sit in the game and study my profiles and find organizations I’ve formed like New Continent Pioneers, which isn’t very active and whose main purpose was to get the Lindens to put in more telehubs in the new continent. I think we can declare a victory on that one.
As always, I’m vindicated merely by the fact that I’m not afraid to put my avatar’s name here — and you are.
Janus Sartre
Sep 30th, 2005
Prokofy Neva wrote:
“The reality of RL is that there are checks and balances on this tendency toward favouritism and corruption. There’s a free press (which we try to have here), there are regulations, there are congressional hearings, there are good practices like bidding a job out to at least three companies so that you can justify the bid in cost and productivity terms.
I don’t want to help shatter the world of illusions any further, but I feel it my civic duty to do so.
1) As a former journalist myself, I can tell you, The press ain’t free. The press is inherently a political beast, from the time of Jefferson on. The way the press worked in the 1800′s was if you had money you could have a voice. That hasn’t changed. What has changed however is the fact that most major media in RL are now owned by no more people than could fit in a Denny’s or a Waffle House and have chairs for breakfast. They decide the editorial tilt, what they want to lobby for, demonize or campaign about. The media is a machine now that propogates the illusion of freedom but instead is feeding you “Freedom according to our owners”
2) Congressional Hearings are usually very -feel-good- actions. We need to look into video games cause they’re violent (Because our constituents think it is important). We have hearings about appointed judges (Because we can’t let the majority just steamroll us even though they will get their way). We have hearings about price gouging on gasoline (Because people are outraged about this and we can make it look like we’re doing something about it). We have hearings about steriods in sports (because it makes us look self-righteous). None of these accomplish much of anything, do they?
3) Good Practices, huh? Remember $250 toilet seats and hammers on the government books? Remember the appointment of the FEMA head who was a Bush-baby good’ole boy who had no real background in disaster relief. New Orleans loved that appointment by best practices.
Get used to the fact money talks and if you’re friends with money it helps you get the chance to walk, in RL and in SL too. They say SL is not a game, per se. They’re right, but they’re also wrong. An evolutionary economy is patterning itself after the real one.
Cocoanut
Sep 30th, 2005
How could it be capitalism?
The Lindens own the world and the Lindens run the world.
And up to now (they have made some advances and some promises to change), they have just selected whoever they wanted to to receive any advantages or benefits they have to pass out..
This happened in the case of Wells Fargo, and in the case of GOM (they approached them, not the others), and in many other ways large and small.
Capitalism is what it would be nice to get TO.
coco
Antje
Sep 30th, 2005
You’re a leftists kook, who thinks his own weird little brand of social democracy is right for everyone else.
I find it so deliciously ironic when you go on about “lecturing and hectoring”, because that is all you do! And you expect us to all just fall in place and salute – “Herr Prokofy, show us the way!”
Let me explain something to you, you raging fucktard. No one person in this universe is right about everything, and this is the core of the issue that most people have with you. You are a self feted, narcissistic asshole who behaves as if every single malcontented thought radiating from that vodka soaked brain of yours is some profound truth. Well they aren’t, and 90% of what you say is hypocritical doublespeak.
You are obsessed by these online worlds, it abundantly clear that you spent an unhealthy amount of time shaking you fists at the monitor, singling out and attacking people,
THIS is a free press? Bwahahahahahaha! That’s the funniest thing I have heard in a long time! Oh dear prokofy, it’s nice you can make me laugh at times, but unfortunately, it’s always when you don’t intend humor!
Free press my ass. It’s a blog. A blog where we are “moderated for spam” in our posts! Yeah right, “spam”! We are reviewed for content. Your slavering loyalty is showing again prok.
You do talk to yourself in the third person, just take a look at that roundtable transcript you added your insipid, vapid comments to. Its fucking weird man.
As far as my traveling goes you brickheaded, arrogant imbecile, I have been to every contint and subcontinent. I have been in nearly every one of the United states. I have lived and studied abroad.
As for the rest of your post, it’s all the same rhetorical claptrap, and I won’t be bothered to comment on it, because that wasn’t what i wanted. What I wanted was to get you to right yet another one of your obsessive pseudo intellectual posts, and it’s worked like a charm.
Vindicated my ass. That’s like saying that when an anonymous emailer on Bill O’Reilly’s show rights in and hands him HIS idealogue ass, that Bill is vindicated. Think again you mouldering stinkpot.
You know what you sound like? (DUH!) Like a Leftist leaning Napolean Dynamite with a thesaurus. Fuck off you nerd.
Joe Public
Sep 30th, 2005
“I guess you haven’t traveled around the world much.”
mmmm, does 10+ years, multiple continents, and living in a foreign country count at all?
Probably not to you, but it is apparently a whole lot more than your summer vacation spent in Russia which you keep going on and on and on and on about. So you experienced a foreign culture once at first hand…arn’t you just the Phileas Fog of the 21 st century!
And now we get your Prokofy’s “Economics for Dummies” as the result?
“I don’t have to go to somebody’s brother-in-law I went to high school with or am in the same political party with, and then pay them $100 to get my papers handled.”
Perhaps not, but don’t go holding America up as a shining light of business ethics just yet. Let’s see some recent examples: Enron, and Tyco for starters …how many ordinary people have lost their life savings here? I suppose they are just Losers with a captial L in your book?
Transparancy in contract bidding process? Halliburton et al (how many bids did they compete against for those iraq/disaster contracts?) Some “slight” overcharging issues with their bills, too, apparently.
Political lobbying: Tom Delay’s recent concpiracy indictment. Hasn’t he built the ultimate politcal machine!
No cronyism in america. Hah! Do you understand at all how the VC industry and Wall street investment banks work hand in hand to manipulate the IPO process and quick flip their generous pre-allocated portions? Go and study the tech wreck 2000 dillbrain. Gaunxi is as an important part of american capitalism as it is in china, though by another name (gekkoxi?) South Korea’s chaebol and Japan’s keiretsu/zaibatsu are different systems of economic partnerships which also no dount have american analogues tuned to the American way of doing business.
Spare me your simplistic childish view that the American version(s) of capitalism is the purest example of free market expression for the worlds “Tired, hungry, and poor”…it is just one hydra varient that has as many systemic issues and problems rooted in basic human self interest and greed as the souk where you haggle over the price of a carpet.
If you think that america is the only country evolving in terms of business ethics and honest (relatively speaking) open transparent transacational systems of business you are sadly deluded and even more arrogant than I imagined.
and wtf is that last para about stalking? There is no reference anywhere to what you are talking about. It’s a rather lame way of promoting the “New Continent Pioneers” don’t you think?
“As always, I’m vindicated merely by the fact that I’m not afraid to put my avatar’s name here – and you are.”
Not really…I just get more of a kick watching you trying to figure it out…and the lame assumptions you keep making about my life experience make it all the more fun!
Don’t get your undies in a twist…
Prokofy Neva
Sep 30th, 2005
CLOSED BY ORDER OF METAVERSE BOARD OF HEALTH TO PREVENT SPREAD OF SL FORUM DISEASE. PLEASE TAKE ALL NECESSARY DECONTAMINATION PRECAUTIONS AND HAVE A NICE DAY.
Joe Public
Oct 1st, 2005
What’s up proky? Knickers all twisted up while you frothed at the screen?
Can’t respond intelligently when faced with factual data?
Here, I’ll write it in WikkanTekkie for you:
if (facts != proksWorldView && lookingLikeADillbrainAgain)
TeenageGirlRunToBedroomStratgey();
else
refuteArgumentIntelligently();
public void TeenageGirlRunToBedroomStrategy() {
blameEveryoneElse();
createNewOrganisation();
installSelfAsElJefe();
cry();
gnashTeeth();
grabBatAndBall();
typeSillyMessageInBeegLetters();
runSobbingToBedroom();
flingSelfOntoBedAndSobIntoPillow();
bastaraaaaaaards();
getPantiesCheckedForBrainLeakage();
}
Aimee Weber
Oct 1st, 2005
“‘See, people think it’s all about the panties,’
Well, on the evidence presented it certainly looks like you have an Aimee Weber bug or 2 lodged firmly up your arse.” -Joe Public
I would call that an understatement!
As usual, Prok has mischaracterized my positions and lied outright about me. If anybody wants the non-cartoon version of my positions on those political issues feel free to IM me in world.
Antje
Oct 1st, 2005
Closed what? Your big mouth? Thanks!