London Times Essay: Griefers and Group Formation in Alphaville
by Alphaville Herald on 13/02/04 at 11:25 am
by Peter Ludlow
About two months ago I was asked to write an essay for the Times of London on my thoughts about the situation in Alphaville. What The Times wanted was something that recapitulated the BBC Online article about how letting people be what they wanted led to anarchy. What they got from me was something else. Following is the draft of the essay that I sent them. The published version was subsequently trimmed down to 1000 words and published in the Times on Jan. 31 (it’s pay to view if you want to go look for it).
In the article I contend that online social groups often form in response to griefers. I no longer believe this conclusion — I now tend to think that many of the groups here are just user-created meta-games that give power gamers something to do (I think that’s also true for much of the griefing too). I’ll try to write up my new thinking on this soon. Anyway, here is the (old) essay.
Griefers and Group formation in Alphaville
by Peter Ludlow
The Sims Online (TSO) is what gaming aficionados call a Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game (MMORPEG). It is a virtual reality environment with tens of thousands of subscribers who meet, compete, socialize, and even conduct business through their “avatars” – cartoon representations of themselves that they construct and use to project their chosen identities in this virtual world. TSO has 80,000 subscribers, but as MMORPGs go TSO is not particularly large. The game EverQuest has over 600,000 subscribers, and the Korean game Lineage has over 2 million subscribers. Indeed, thanks to the widespread availability of broadband internet access in Korea, more people now play Lineage than watch television at night in that country.
MMORPGs are not just entertainment, however. 2 million human beings (or even 80,000) can bring a great deal of creative energy to a common meeting place, even if it is a virtual meeting place. Friendships are made, common interests are identified, social groups are formed, ideas are exchanged, collaborative plans are formed and executed both in game and out. Viewed in economic terms, the wealth that is created in these games is enormous. The Economist Edward Castronova (California State Fullerton) has calculated that if we thought of EverQuest as a “real” country, its per capita gross domestic product would be ranked 79th largest in the world, just behind Russia but ahead of Bulgaria. Indeed some players make a living creating objects in game and selling them in marketplaces like Ebay. Incomes of $100,000 per year are commonplace.
TSO is designed to be a game of socializing. Based on the most popular video game of all time – The Sims – it has a much broader demographic than most video games, and includes large numbers of women (60% women, in fact). If there is a goal in the game, it is to achieve a certain level of success relative to the other players, where that success can come by having more friends, or by owning a property that has more visitors. The game provides rankings of the top 100 players (based on friendship links) and the top 100 properties or houses in several categories, ranging from skill acquisition, to money making, to romance. The actual features engineered into the game are minimal. Players have green links, which they can give to friends, and red links, which they give to enemies. Red links, then, indicate a sim of diminished reputation. There is a finite inventory of clothing, building materials, and household objects, but players are free to arrange them in any way they choose, so the variation between properties in the game is remarkable.
Given the minimal features engineered into the game, and the multitude of strategies for socializing that humans have, the game is quite open ended. One can, in effect, roleplay in any number of ways. As the marketing material on the box says: How you play is limited only by your imagination. But the game promises more than that:
“The Sims Online is an unpredictable, alternate reality where you can be yourself or be somebody else. Be rich, powerful, popular, famous, or infamous. In this massive and never-ending online game you become a Sim – choose your role and find your destiny.”
What happens when people can chose what they want to look like and can define themselves however they choose? What kinds of communities emerge when persons are free to express themselves in this way? All of these were questions that I was keen to investigate.
The game designer Richard Bartle has offered a taxonomy of player motivations when they enter a game like TSO. Some players are power gamers – they want to achieve high rank in the game. Other gamers want to socialize. A third group likes to explore the virtual world. The fourth group of gamer is known as the griefer.
Griefers are the virtual sociopaths — the players that like to disrupt the game by any means possible. The psychologist John Suler has offered the following analysis of the typical griefer:
“…. the need to establish a “bad boy” identity in order to feel unique… the compulsion to buck the system and defy the authorities (rebels without a cause)….. the desire to feel powerful by inflicting problems on others….. the rather elitist and holier-than-thou attitude…. preying on vulnerable people (probably a way to cope with one’s own feelings of helplessness and vulnerability)…. a seemingly sociopathic inability to empathize with other people…. a preoccupation with issues of humiliation and shame…. hiding behind fantasy identities…. an inability or lack of interest in creating meaningful relationships.”
Every MMORPEG has more than a few griefers, and every game must devise ways to deal with them. MMORPGs like EverQuest have a simple solution: stronger players kill the griefers. End of story. This strategy is not possible in TSO. The best that players can do is apply red links to a player, and if a player is indifferent to these links, well the only hope is to ask the corporation running the game to intercede.
The 80,000 players on TSO are not all located in the same place. There are eight “cities”, each located on a different computer. I decided that I wanted to view one city up close as an inhabitant, so I chose Alphaville, the oldest and largest of the TSO cities. I also decided that an interesting way to conduct my investigation would be by recording events in a local newspaper, which my associates and I dubbed The Alphaville Herald.
When I arrived in Alphaville and began reporting on events in the city, matters were already spinning out of control. The game owner, Electronic Arts, had effectively withdrawn from any meaningful policing of the game, leaving the denizens of Alphaville at the mercy of the griefers.
While red links had little effect when deployed against the griefers, the links became powerful weapons in the hands of the griefers themselves, who used them against other sims in a game of reputational paint ball. Groups of griefers would form “mafias” which would “tag” sims with red links and demand simoleans (the game currency) in exchange. Gang members would descend on successful properties and tag the owners and their visitors in exchange for “protection money” (exchangeable for US dollars on Ebay).
Petitions to the EA game monitors for help typically fell on deaf ears, and the griefers themselves became extremely adept at using the “petition” process to get normal users suspended. A typical strategy would be reporting them for infractions like saying “damn”. In one instance, a mafia kept creating and sending new players into a popular property and waiting for someone to use a four letter word, and subsequently reporting them.
What was interesting to me was that, left without any meaningful defense mechanisms, the players organized and devised strategies to protect themselves from griefers. One group, called The Sims Shadow Government, established a “no mafia” policy in Alphaville and devised extreme strategies for forcing mafias from the game. A typical strategy would be to have a player create a female avatar, establish a romantic attachment with the griefer, and ultimately destroy the in-game property of the griefer. Sometimes the strategies spilled out of the game itself.
Another interesting strategy involved the formation of communities with communications networks. Alphaville has a very large group of players (about 500 by some estimates) who roleplay in Bondage, Discipline, and Sado-Masochism. The group established a communication system by which they could broadcast the identity of a troublemaker (or a minor seeking access to their homes and events) and each property would individually ban the player. The SSG managed a similar “broadcast banning” in a number of the highly ranked properties.
These strategies have proved only partly effective, however. While such bans are able to successfully lock griefers out of the core areas of society, there remain regions on the margins of Alphaville where the griefers operate freely. Spectacularly, one such are is the welcome category of properties in the game, where new players enter the game only to fall into the clutches of players who will con them out of their money, lock them in rooms and humiliate them and verbally abuse them. In effect, the gate to the city is full of scammers.
Since the Alphaville Herald began reporting on events in this virtual city, many morals have been drawn from the sad state of affairs. Some commentators have suggested that this is what happens when people are given the freedom to be whatever they want to be. I think a different conclusion is in order. The lesson of Alphaville is the way in which communities evolve in response to griefers and the creative and resourceful and sometimes heavy handed strategies that they use to defeat and freeze out griefers. The lesson is also that the ability to cope with griefers is limited by the cohesiveness of community, and is never entirely successful. It is a mistake to think of Alphaville as a kind of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is rather a city very much like terrestrial cities, struggling to cope with the behavioral problems of a relatively small number of citizens. Indeed, the more closely Alphaville is studied, the more it looks like a reflection of the world the players thought they had temporarily left behind.
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 13th, 2004
I can see your need to rewrite this with a new perspective.
“Another interesting strategy involved the formation of communities with communications networks. Alphaville has a very large group of players (about 500 by some estimates) who roleplay in Bondage, Discipline, and Sado-Masochism. The group established a communication system by which they could broadcast the identity of a troublemaker (or a minor seeking access to their homes and events) and each property would individually ban the player. The SSG managed a similar “broadcast banning” in a number of the highly ranked properties.”
Our community did not form in resonse to anything other than our desire to socialize and interact with like minded persons and Neither of the Theories of community growth you put forward Consider this as a factor. Did Sim Arts form because Artists were being routinely Griefed in game? or did they form to Do what artists do, to share, and celebrate their creativity. Community formation and growth is far more complex than a pat answer like “They did it for defence.”
The Stratagies for defence (And indeed internal policing)you point out are the natural development within a community of friends. If someone comes to my home bent on causing trouble, OF COURSE i am going to let my circle of friends know. They, in turn will look to warn the people on their web. Look at it in terms more of neighbors and friends doing what they naturally should. Watching each others backs.
Your original essay Mistakenly puts the cart before the horse. Our community existed first,, any “Stratagies” we gained for dealing with trouble makers evolved after.
You mentioned Minors trying to enter our lots, I think it only right to clarify our stance on Young people. We don’t consider Young People to be Griefers. We were all young once, and as young people, we always wanted to know what was being said at the “Grown-Ups Table” even if we didn’t understand it all, And there is the issue for some of intense sexual curiousity. The things we discuss at our lots are not for the ears of Minors, and it is out of respect for the Law, sensativity Social Standards, and Concern for an absent parents wishes, that we sheild young people from what we say and do. We Sympathise with their desires,, we just Cannot allow them in good consience to satisfy them in our homes.
Maria LaVeaux.
Harvey
Feb 13th, 2004
Quote Uri:
The lesson of Alphaville is the way in which communities evolve in response to griefers and the creative and resourceful and sometimes heavy handed strategies that they use to defeat and freeze out griefers. The lesson is also that the ability to cope with griefers is limited by the cohesiveness of community, and is never entirely successful. It is a mistake to think of Alphaville as a kind of Sodom and Gomorrah. It is rather a city very much like terrestrial cities, struggling to cope with the behavioral problems of a relatively small number of citizens.
Close quote
I’ve never seen you state your conclusions in just this way professor. Had you stated such on the blog itself two months ago, fewer people might be upset today. I believe the constant emphasis on the “seamy” side has obscured your message.
Thanks
Harvey
Feb 13th, 2004
Boy I sure missed that one didn’t I?? That’s the old article and you no longer feel that way… no matter, I was never aware that you felt that way at all.
I’ll be looking forward to what you have to say about the metagame.
Thanks again…
Dyerbrook
Feb 13th, 2004
Uri, while you are engaging in revisionism of your own self, you might ponder revising your core belief about the SSG, that it is some kind of “social group” that evolved to cope with griefers. I know that if you abandon this ardent belief of yours, it will entirely demolish the premise of your “scholarship,” your future books and articles, etc. But you simply *must* do this for the sake of accuracy and the truth.
The SSG is not some “social group” that first got harassed, or got indignant that other players were griefers, and then formed the SSG. The SSG grew out of existing mafias, as you can see if you actually pay attention to the very interviews on this page. It was a dark organization bent on mayhem, destruction, power from the beginning. It was a Bolshevik-style organization with a hidden agenda to take over lots and Shadowize them, and convert other players to their ends, and their cover story about just cleaning up the neighborhood was just propaganda. Read their own works, and independent histories of them such as mine, and you’ll see this is the case.
The SSG came about because power gamers were bored with the game and wanted to take it to another level. But that’s still an interesting object of study, if only you can see it. It shows that left to their own devices, people playing the game of making a virtual world don’t do positive, constructive things like make educational or artistic or entertainment lots. They form shadow secret societies and wreck havoc. With the “anything-goes”/politically correct exigencies of the TOS, that can’t see the forest for the trees, what you get are proto-totalitarian societies. That ought to be what you study and think of, instead of celebrating the seamy side of all these smelly orthodoxies.
m. tovar
Feb 13th, 2004
reading uri’s essay. my reaction
is this:
yeah. there are some very interesting people waiting for people who stumble into the areas designated as “newbie” areas and some of them seem, dare i say, rapacious. these individuals try to demand friendship links and have interesting business propositions all set to go — these guys appear ready to pitch to anybody almost before they have completely materialized on a property.
Dyerbrook
Feb 13th, 2004
P.S. Of course it goes without saying that some people form Sim Arts or Game Show or whatever sort of lot that is creative or entertaining of innovative. But these are the minority. The largest organizations that have formed in our relatively free virtual world are 1) a would-be totalitarian government based on crony state capitalism with a powerful security apparatus and 2) a network of “romance” lot devoted to the lifestyle of sado-masochism. There’s your commentary of how worlds are formed, in a nutshell. Study the realities of TSO, Uri, and stop mucking around with the handful of “cyber-prostitutes” that only you seem to visit.
Dyerbrook
Feb 13th, 2004
P.P.S. Apropos of the authoritarians and the totalitarians. Control of the web-based radio stations was of course key to these “social groups” (they ought to be called pernicious conspiracies). And your revelation of the “special broadcasting system” used by BDSM, so like the SSG, network, is proof of my critique of this “neighborhood” as just some innocent group of lifestyle afficionados. For example, I could tell they had a big blower like this when I’d find myself banned from all there lots instantly *merely for asking a sub not allowed to be spoken to directly how on earth she wound up in that lifestyle*. I also saw people in my own balloon set and even one set of balloons away from me being banned before they opened their mouths, as they’ve testified on this site. So tell me how these “social groups” that use the methods of the totalitarians should be construed in this game, Uri, just bored meta-gamers?
m. tovar
Feb 13th, 2004
mr dyerbrook
i am concerned to think that there are people out in the world who might possibly think that your ‘commentary of how worlds are formed, in a nutshell’ is anything other than a fantasy that came to you after an overdose of star trek re-runs.
tso is correctly described by dr ludlow as an environment where the main activity is social chat. he is, in my opinion, correct to describe it that way because tso is basically an unmoderated chat room with avatars. the avatars are interesting because they provide the players with objects that allow the players to be “distant” from everyday, ordinary daily values and behavioral constraints. because the activities are “simulated” activities, people feel free to act like assholes in some cases because they feel that there are no real life consequences to their decisions and behaviors.
dr ludlow also states that “mmorpgs are not just entertainment”. he also states that a “great deal of creative energy” has been brought to a “common meeting place”. one has only to examine ebay listings under “alphaville”, for example, to observe the (at least) economic energy being generated by tso offline by, and for, players. on ebay one can acquire for US dollars, all kinds of rare pets, sims money, etc — all of which work to the social advantage of any alphaville sim who wants to spend, in some cases, in excess of five hundred USD to acquire the objects. one feels able to say that no doubt the intellectual and sexual energy exist at the same level of intensity as the economic energy.
you, my dear dyerbrook, see tso as a bleak world full of baby bolsheviks. i suggest that tso is a living community in the middle of the early stages of cultural formation.
Dyerbrook
Feb 13th, 2004
Um, it wasn’t me who said this world was just behind Russia and ahead of Bulgaria in its “economy”.
Erm…when people behave like assholes because they think there are no constraints, and there *are* little in the way of constraints beyond the easily-beat PC TOS, then they act like totalitarians do in RL. That’s my point.
It is a bleak world of baby Bolsheviks, comrade, just stay tuned.
CherryBomb
Feb 13th, 2004
You need to spend some time in other cities for an objective view. I know sometimes I am misled by mostly doing research in Interhogan. AV is the biggest city (by a little) but there are nine others, Alphaville seem to attract more than its share of griefers and freaks. I camped out there for a couple of months to look things over, but I ran back to Test Center because I couldn’t stand playing there.
toy
Feb 14th, 2004
toy finds it interesting that dyer has had this girl on ignore for a couple months now, this is one slave that has been trying to discuss Gor with him, alas, he will never do so simply because it would prove that all slaves or subs are not the same. this girl is outspoken and would glady discuss her beliefs
toy
TSKELLI
Feb 14th, 2004
“Erm…when people behave like assholes because they think there are no constraints, and there *are* little in the way of constraints beyond the easily-beat PC TOS, then they act like totalitarians do in RL. That’s my point.”
So what exactly is your point, mon ami? Without legal restraints that are enforced people behave like a$$holes? Maybe so, but why does that lead to “totalitarianism” and not simple anarchy? i do not think that this is a case of totalitarianism …. totalitarianism is monolithic and not voluntary. AV and the other cities as well seem more like anarchy to me, and a not so unhappy kind of anarchy at that.
sister toy, i am convinced he will never engage you because he is afraid to do so — only possible conclusion at this point.
kelli
Dyerbrook
Feb 14th, 2004
Yes,I agree about life being different in other cities. No, toy, I don’t talk to voluntarily enslaved persons because I’m a free person in a free society. And Tskelli, look closely at all those “anarchies” and you will find the rigid codes of closed societies.
Donna
Feb 14th, 2004
SSG = Sim Shadow Griefers
ajdown
Feb 15th, 2004
It seems to me Prof that you have more than an unhealthy interest in the ‘seedier’ side of the game that you are so actively promoting as existing – and as someone who obviously knows so much about prostitutes and extortion, perhaps more than anyone else in the game, are you safe to be working within the education system?
toy
Feb 15th, 2004
you feel your ‘above’ talking to a slave dyer?
what a pity, you will never learn what a slave is if you already feel you are to good to talk to one… toy can accept this tho, since you refuse to communicate and just enjoy to lecture.
toy
happy with herself and what she is and always sleeps well
Lady Julianna
Feb 16th, 2004
“Control of the web-based radio stations was of course key to these “social groups” (they ought to be called pernicious conspiracies). And your revelation of the “special broadcasting system” used by BDSM, so like the SSG, network, is proof of my critique of this “neighborhood” as just some innocent group of lifestyle afficionados.”
OMG Dyer… Are you being willfully stupid now? The broadcasting system being discussed was an informal network, a warning system using in game IMs and email to send the word out about a disruptive or underaged player. From that you conclude we have taken over the radio stations?
Sheesh… *Shaking head, can’t believe that even Dyer can be this stupid so that he does not understand English anymore.”
Or maybe you are just paranoid, delusional, or off your antipsychotic medications.
*Whispering in Dyer’s ear…* We have not only taken over the radio stations, but we are now broadcasting from the moon.. a signal that can be picked up by people with certain kinds of dental work. The only protection is to make a tin foil hat and wear it everywhere. Quick! Run and make yourself one Dyer!
Lady Julianna
Feb 16th, 2004
Can you say paranoid schizophrenic boys and girls?
*Motioning with my head and eyes toward Dyer.*
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 16th, 2004
Dyer:
“No, toy, I don’t talk to voluntarily enslaved persons because I’m a free person in a free society.”
It is interesting to me that Dyer derides our lifestyle, and yet treats my toy as More of a second class Citizen than ANY Master or Mistress in Our community would.
I treat my toy with Respect. I know she has a Mind, and opinions worth listening to even if she chooses service as a way of life.
Dyer treats her as Livestock.
I think all can see who would more truely enslave the ones around them if given the chance.
Maria.
Dyerbrook
Feb 16th, 2004
See below under “Interview With Maria”.
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 17th, 2004
Dyer:
“See below under “Interview With Maria”.”
I did. Nothing new as usual, Just the same admissions that you Simply Can not, or Will not understand a relationship that falls outside your preconceived notions.
Dyer:
“I really ought to just create a bot that comes on these boards every day and just repeats the same thing ”
Chere,, Re read your own posts,, Many of us thought you already had. Even when faced with Proof that you are wrong, you wait two posts then Repeat the Same Falacious arguements as though they had never been heard before (And Discredited).
Dyer:
“There is another way. You can have a partner who is equal, who knows their own mind, who you respect, as an equal, not a slave. They can live a life of service by going to work at the Red Cross or the soup kitchen, they don’t have to clear your plates in the Sims or IRL. ”
Many people find it more Fulfilling serving a single person in more personal ways. There is an Intimacy, and shared feeling not possible in a food bank or soup Kitchen or other Sterile Assembly line service where the people you serve are nothing but an unending faceless line. But again,, it falls outside YOUR definition of service.
I think i begin to see more of a fear of the Deeper commitment our slaves/subs have for us, and us for them, than a revulsion to the lifestyle as everything you propose seems to be aimed at putting up “safe barriers” between peoples hearts.
That kind of Hollow, lonely eistance is not for us. but if others choose it for themselves, i will respect that choice, even if i do not embrace it.
Maria.
toy
Feb 17th, 2004
toy does not have to clear Mistress Maria’s plates in TSO…. toy does services to her because toy wishes to please Her….. toy enjoys pleasing Her, toy gets great joy from doing even simple things, its called love dyer, something that seems to be missing in your life.
you crave acceptance yet cannot achieve it simply because you lecture and never listen to others. Continualy twisting what others say to suit your own narrow conception of what everyone should be, a dyer clone. We all hhave minds of our own, we make choices daily, some right, some wrong but we accept and learn from poor choices, do you dyer?
the biggest flaw now in your thoughts seem to be that you have placed this girl beneath you, not worthy to speak to, not worthy to listen to. Would you speak to toy if she wasnt a slave? toy doubts this because toy would still be the same person she is now and not a dyer clone. You simply use that concept to not answer this girls past questions, the questions will always remain dyer, they wont disappear simply because you feel your above talking to a slave.
There’s always a beautiful horizon to see dyer but, you continually look at it through binoculars, and that simply narrows you field of view. Drop the binoculars dyer, open your eyes, there’s much beauty in the world you are missing.
falara kajira toy
Mikal
Feb 17th, 2004
i agree toy. There is much beauty in the world for those W/who can see it. Here’s a poem i wrote about it.
Painting in the Sky
by Mikal
Walking outside
In the cold, cold air
Seeing the sunset
Lighting up the sky
Just behind some leafless trees.
What a beautiful sight
To behold
Shades of red, blue and gold
Create a painting in the sky.
How blessed i feel
That i can see
What was created
For Y/you and me.
Some of U/us
Accept this vision
Exactly as it is
True beauty.
Some of U/us
Fail to see
The beauty
In this glorious painting.
So i am grateful everyday
That i have been blessed
Blessed with the gift of seeing
The beautiful painting in the sky.
E/everyone needs to stop and look around T/them. As the old saying goes, “stop and smell the roses”. The fragrance only lasts but so long and then it’s gone. The beautiful sunset only lasts for a while. Beauty in life is abundant, yes, but O/one must be open to see it. Look around. See beauty in the eyes of a child who looks at all with wonder, amazement everytime something new and beautiful comes along. W/we adults have much to learn from the child. Make sure that the child is taught love, beauty, understanding of differences, compassion, etc. If the children are taught these things, the world will be a much better place. Just think on these things.
i know i will make sure that my kids see the beauty in E/everyone, no matter who that person may be, what that person may look like , what that person may have done, etc. In the end, it will be well worth it to have a much better world. 
Be well A/all.
Mikal
Lady Juloianna
Feb 17th, 2004
Thank you for your thoughts my darling, so beautifully expressed as usual. I am truly blessed by having you in my life my love. You give yourself to me each and every day, a gift beyond value.
What people like Dyer are missing is this simple truth. Some of us are dominant by nature, and some are submissive by nature. We recognize this, celebrate it, and allow ourselves to be fulfilled by it. We do not struggle to be what we are not. We have found our complementary person, our soul mate. We fit together beautifully and in harmony.
I am Dominant. I value and adore the submissive heart. Not just any submissive would do. I searched and Mikal searched, and we have found each other.
We both serve the other. I serve Mikal too, but my service is not as obvious. Mikal cooks for me, cleans for me, caters to my every desire. He loves me.
I focus on him, pay attention to his mood, help him to find peace and to relax when feeling stressed, and plan for our mutual pleasure together. I direct his activities at times (but not all the time) to benefit him.. such as in the assignments I give him. I encourage him in activities that will be beneficial to him, such as learning his native Cherokee language.
All that some people see are whips, chains and perceived abuses. They do not see the naturalness of one partner being dominant and the other submissive, the formalization of that arrangement, and the increased recognition of the responsibility that goes with it for the dominant. I love my submissive and care for him and yes, I serve him too.
A submissive heart is a beautiful thing… selfless, caring for others first, creative, fun, intelligent, nurturing, gentle… What is not to love? And Dyer, how dare you put toy down! We are protective of our beloved submissives too. Of course we speak out in their defense.
I love you my darling Mikal
Dyerbrook
Feb 17th, 2004
Uri, bring me my barf bag.
toy
Feb 18th, 2004
dyer toy hates to point it out but YOU are Uri’s barf bag
Lady Julianna
Feb 18th, 2004
Another rational, well laid out argument by Dyer.
Lady Julianna
Feb 18th, 2004
I must say you do look cute Dyer in your new tinfoil hat.
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 18th, 2004
As i said in another thread,, Any display of Affection or intimacy seems repellant to him,,Only Sterile semi detached relationships seem to meet with his approval.
Interesting.
Maria.
Mikal
Feb 18th, 2004
Perhaps not enough affection shown as an infant/child, Ageyv? or…perhaps was smothered as an infant/child in love and affection and it just repulses him…hmmm…wonder which it was?
Be well A/all. i know i shall.
Mikal