Adults Only for Alphaville?
by Alphaville Herald on 06/01/04 at 5:27 pm
In the discussion threads to a number of articles people have discussed the possibility of making Alphaville an adults-only server. I thought it might be good to have a thread dedicated just to this issue. Actually, there are two questions to consider.
1) Is it a good idea?
2) Is it technologically feasible?
I declare the discussion now open.
Dyerbrook
Jan 6th, 2004
1) No. An adult server is a good idea. But Alphaville has a diversity of neighborhoods, including Sim Arts, which are not adult-oriented and it should not succumb to the last-minute adult craze that has invaded in recent weeks. The adult server should either be a brand-new city, or else one of the very low-populated cities (Dan’s Grove is not as underpopulated as you think, and the good citizens of Dan’s Grove may well resent being dumped on for the adult server project. East Jerome is one candidate). People who shout the loudest to the mainstream media or have the most bandwidth on their university servers don’t get to be the people who “buy” or “take over” Alphaville, nor do people who run together in wolf packs to intimidate others.
2) Yes. Of course it it technically feasible –but Maxis has to weigh the cost of droves of customers going away because of the hardcore content (parents will begin to complain and not just church groups but just common-sense citizens who will be appalled at what they read in the mainstream press). Yes, there are some start-up costs which will be more than balanced by the droves coming in for this content. And stop it already with the crap about how you can’t check 18 or 21 and over. You can do it with Paypal verification — they require a bank account in addition to a credit card. You provide at least some kind of screen — if it is cleared by some, so what? At least they will know what they are getting into. Currenly, the box is deceptive in advertising “teen” content because it is not only for teens, and is really for mature audiences. A parently currently buying the game for a 13 year old has no way of knowing that his child will face hard-core, violent, enslaving sex and cult-like activity in the game. If he sees there is an adult-server in the game he can monitor his teen accordingly.
Despite all this hoopla about the long-term presence of BDSM in Alphaville, just look at the average age of the BDSM Sims. There are not many founders, and many young Sims. The majority of lots are under 3 months old, unlike many Sim Arts and other properties that are a year or more old or at least 6-9 months. This is easily documented — Maxis/EA itself will easily verify it as will many fan sites.
Maxis/EA can provide incentive like extra stake money or special objects or whatever to move people OUT OF Alphaville.
Be warned: if you try adult-server afficionados try to take Alphaville over as the adult server, you will have a constant thorn in your side: me. I will never delete, I will never leave Dysfunction Junction. I didn’t buy this game to play BDSM; BDSM is not advertise on the box or any of the official sites or discussion boards and I will stand by that.
Dyerbrook
Jan 6th, 2004
Let me take up here Maria’s ridiculous notion: “Dyer Illustrates for us one reason why the idea of an adult server will not work. the whole idea of establishing one would be to allow adult behaviour outside the view of Minors. But once the segragationist attitudes begin dictating play then soon you will have demands for a whites only server, a Christians only server, a Womens only server, Et Cetera,,,,”
Just because you can’t do everything, doesn’t mean you can’t do something. And even a token effort to screen out over 18 or over 21 is an alert to people who would like to avoid hardcore, and a signal to those who want it where they should go in order not to bother others. As I have said time and again, ZONING IS NOT DISCRIMINATION. It’s just zoning, a perfectly normal thing for any community. Nobody is calling for a whites only server, a Christian only server, a gay-only server. So it’s totally false and opportunistic on your part to raise it as some kind of reality and a terrible form of moral equivalency–putting BDSM on a separate server because it is offensive and inappropriate for minors and many adults is hardly remotely anything like discriminating against blacks or gays. The only thing people really are doing now is calling for an adult server, which is not in violation of the TOS, but a means of enforcing the TOS, whereas a call for a whites-only or Christian-only or gays-only server would be a violation of the TOS.
In fact, adult type behavior might still go on in Alphaville, perhaps more discreetly, but those who want hardcore can go to the separate server knowing what they wil get into. And to configure this as only a problem of minors is also skewed. It is a problem now of people who want to live freely, and not endorse slavery or violence. It really isn’t about cybering, or prostitution, although these, too, could be accommodated on the adult server since quite a few Sims would rather play without them. What has happened with BDSM is that for many IT WENT TOO FAR. And they want it to go somewhere else farther away with its too-far.
Maxis could well look at the deluge of BDSM members and the risk of alienating them with cracking down on hardcore speech, against the few who might cancel subscriptions over this issue, as a few have ready. But this isn’t a company that thinks in those kind of segmented terms of this group of subscribers versus that group. It will calculate the bad publicity it is going to be getting increasingly, and the loss of game sales and stock prices, it will look at the poor performance of the subscriptions, and it will either can the game or make the new server, or even a separate game for adults-only, because the last thing it will ever want to let go of is its teen rating on TSO.
RB
Jan 7th, 2004
1) HELL YEAH. but not AV, a new server. or a revamp of a ghost town like EJ.
2) Obviously.
- RB
Katie Ellen
Jan 7th, 2004
I have lived in AV since the beginning of the game. I know several people in almost every community in Alpha. If I am bothered by any of them, I just put them on ignore. I do not think sensorship of any kind is needed or wanted. I do agree the children should be monitoried and there are people who do and will take advantage of them. I think if a commplaint is recieved to Maxis, they should monitor the person for a period of time to see what is going on AND talk to the people they are monitoring as FALSE things can be leveled also.
In “real life” there are many life styles. It is th choice of a person who to be friends with and who not to be friends with and NO person should mandate what people can and can’t do. Unless of course if a law is broken. Thats where I think maybe a form policing should be in place.
Bob
Jan 7th, 2004
Yeah..make a new server or something to do that..their are lots of people who play who are under 21..so that would be very crappy. I am only 19 years old..and if I would be booted from Alpha just because I was underage..I would cancel my whole account and quit.
toy
Jan 7th, 2004
they can never change a present server to adult only……. NIMBY…. not in my backyard would prevent this
also toy would point out if in their ‘infinate’ wisdom to make a completely new server for adults would everyone wishing to go it be compenseted? or have to start over? this is also a reason it wont happen…… now then, who is to determine who would be ‘made’ to go to a adult server? all adults, or some picked out for beliefs? toy thinks this also is a reason this wont happen. But lets suppose they did make several servers and segregated all adults from the ones set aside for kids…. would it be advisable then in the ‘kid’ servers to have love beds? hot tubs? or even double beds? not to even mention hot kiss
so as far as toy can see this is just a daydream of a few peoples idea of there own utopia
and policing the seperate servers… toy could see it as a money pit for Maxis also…. how to control the ages of players.
again. wont happen
toy
Tory
Jan 7th, 2004
1) Yes and no. I think it’s a reasonable idea, however, because of the ESRB rating (T) it would require an entirely new release and game that was not, in any way, connected to The Sims Online. It would need a new name and server, possibly several employees dedicated specifically to that game, and GMs that were not affiliated with TSO because of the Terms of Service discrepancies.
If they went ahead and created on adult city within the Teen-rated TSO, they would run the risk of losing their rating because the game, as a whole, would no longer be teen-appropriate.
2) Again, yes and no. On a purely technological level, it’s completely feasible. There’s no technological problems that would prevent this. The LEGAL feasibility, however, is something that would be a much bigger hurdle in an issue like this. Mainly because of what is listed above; the rating and teen presence.
I think, overall, the key to the creation of an adult-only server, city, game, would be the manpower and subscription numbers. TSO currently has enough subscribers to keep afloat, but by turning that into two separate communities, it would likely mean the end of TSO as we know it and the nearly impossible job of getting TSO – Adults Only off the ground using the minority in-game who want it and trying to lure new and former players into a game who’s predicessor didn’t do all that well to begin with.
TJ
Dyerbrook
Jan 8th, 2004
Tory has persuasive arguments. I’ve also been thinking that probably what Maxis would have to do is create a whole new game, using the same bare bones of the Sims but with different clothes, etc. Put in a spanking interaction, and I guarantee you, you’ll have no problem filling up this den of inquity.
Then if for reasons of subscription bases Maxis won’t do this, it would seem that the right, indeed moral thing to do would be for those minority of players who RP hardcore adult topics (NOT the minority of players who “want” this since the BDSMers and others are complaining that they do NOT want it) should VOLUNTARILY go to an unpopulated city and play there so that they do not jeopardize this game FOR US ALL, for the entire community, because of their selfishness. Either that, or curb considerably what they are doing, especially as it hooks up to RL. If they continue as they are now, they will either be booted, or endanger the entire game. Their refusal to understand that, their belief that because they don’t technically have nude pictures on their websites linking to the game that they are ok is going to be their downfall and the downfall of the whole game.
Because of their play-acting, the ESRB will be forced to convert this game to “mature” from “teen” — even so much as an ESRB review of this will chill business for Maxis. Every single lot that puts “You Must Be 21″ on their description is a lot that is converting the game from “teen” to “mature”. It’s that threat, more than the threat of Maxis/EA “pulling the plug” on this game which seems like the real legal threat that Maxis/EA and players have to face. So now it’s up to these very same BDSM people who put “You must be 21″ on your lots to voluntarily put “You must be 21″ on an entire city and move there. That may not prevent the ESRB from changing its rating, but at least the game company could say that they cannot control every aspect of their customers’ privacy, and they have moved to a separate city. The key to this game will be self-governance. If there is no self-governance, other entities will make the decision for you, and end the game.
BDSM and others think societies and game companies operate on the same inane principle that they tout from their belief system “An it harm none do what thy will.” Well, the problem is that what they believe “harms none” is NOT what the society at large and the company company and the ESRB believe, so they’re out of luck. In fact, the anthem of TSO is not “an it harm none” but Dostoyevsky’s “Without God, anything goes.”
toy
Jan 8th, 2004
toy will be damned if she woul;d sit still to being made to move to another city just because this girls beliefs….. toy is NOY a finely milled peg to fit into a ‘hole’ just becausea ‘few’ disagree with her beliefs…. toy would rather suggested leaving this girl alone because she didnt start any of this mess…. it was begun by one who reminds toy of a child that finds excuses not to go to bed at bedtime…… arguing, commenting… just to get noticed and allowed to stay up a few more minutes……
its bedtime, no more arguing, whining, ect… ect… toy asks only to be allowed to her beliefs…. if others differ, so be it, but toy does and will exercise her right to be what she is and what she believes in
falara kajira toy
Tory
Jan 8th, 2004
At the risk of veering off-topic (which I think has already happened) I want to address some of what Dyer is saying.
It’s unlikely that Maxis/EA/TSO will be open to any sort of legal issues surrounding adult-themed lots that are labeled 18+ or 21+. The reason is that these lots, while clearly labeled are still subject to the Terms of Service.
I remember on the old boards a very long debate about labeled adult-themed properties and the key issue was people going to those lots with the express purpose of reporting them. The general response was that if you have the sort of lot that has orgies in open chat or significant profanity, then you should be an Admit-Only house.
There is no protection proffered for lots that state they are adult-themed, in fact, it makes them more of a target. I believe this to be the key issue surrounding the idea of an adult city. How to protect the privacy and rights (such as they are) of people who want to have an adult-themed house that is open to everyone.
Sadly, the answer is that there is no protection for that. We are all subject to the same User Agreement and TOS, once again, in part, because of the Teen rating.
As long as the ToS is enforced (even if shoddily, as we have seen repeatedly) they are in no danger of losing their ESRB rating. Everything that takes place in-game will have to, then, meet the criteria for a Teen-rating.
There is no real sex, there is only moving bedsheets and barking, or people playing underwater. There is no drug use… sims are blowing BUBBLES. The justification of the objects here is key. They can’t call it a bong, that’s drugs. They can’t call the love bed a sex bed because that crosses the line.
The actions of individuals or groups within the game do not put Maxis/TSO at risk because they are all subject to the same TOS as everyone else and action can be taken when their gameplay is deemed “inappropriate” by those who handle that aspect.
What would cause ESRB to revoke or change the rating is if Maxis chose to implement objects or titles that crossed the ratings line. Until that point in time, the TOS and enforcement thereof will prevent any action against Maxis for misleading the consumers with the rating applied. The tools are available for the individual to take action when offended by whatever they feel is inappropriate, and if the powers-that-be agree with that assessment, action can and will be taken.
Forcing a segment of the population into any area isn’t going to change how things are done… Even a voluntary move to another city wouldn’t negate the exisitng rules, it would only make those who choose adult themes more of a target and easier to find.
TJ
Dyerbrook
Jan 8th, 2004
TJ, I understand your point evidently that the game company is not liable for the behavior of its customers if it has published a TOS and made them sign it, and if it is shown to be enforcing a TOS. But is it selective and lax in enforcement of its own TOS? Doesn’t the booting of Urizenus illustrate its selectivity? And doesn’t its failure to remove a known defrauder and scammer (violating the TOS about not defrauding other Sims) a glaring example of its laxness? And by extention, its permission of the climate of violence and enslavement within TSO is also laxness in enforcing its own TOS against rules against obscenity and “not saying what you wouldn’t say aloud in a room full of people.” Doesn’t the ESRB care if a game company is known to be selectively and/or laxly enforcing its own TOS? It’s not just about what objects the company creates in its programming, or its disclaimer about how “game experience may change during game play” (boy, I’ll say) but knowing neglect of its own TOS, is it not?
And if the company tolerates within the game many lots with obscenity marked “18 or 21 and over” and yet has a teen rating, doesn’t that have any consequences? I should think that it would. And if for some legal technicality having to do with torts or contract law in fact it is not liable for its customers’ behavior merely by the presence of a TOS and occasional enforcement (some romance lots have gotten petition notices over the use of obscenity in the chat), then once again, what about the moral issue of what kind of world we would like to live in? Doesn’t that count for something? Yes, I can turn off my ignore button and boot and ban from my lot. But as I sit on a skill lot today, I see a 19-year-old boy and an underage teenage girl sitting next to a hardcore Dom advertising his whips and chains blatantly on his profile. So while that Dom might keep a “21 or over” sign on his lot or have an admit list, when he roams around skilling, or trolling for new subs, only expulsion from the lot by the lot-owner would solve the problem. And while I’ve had some lot owners actually ask me now if I’d like to request the booting of some of the BDSMers who are harassing me (I’ve said no to serve as an education), most owners won’t boot merely over an objectionable profile.
Try to pull back from the narrow legal issues. The New York Times and other mainstream press will be carrying stories soon about the evils of TSO, as salon and many gaming sites already have. It’s more and more lurid and negative publicity for this company. There’s the blogger that dubbed the game “The Slums,” a land of one-handed typists. At a certain point, the law be damned, if sales are hurt, they will take action — *just as they did with Urizenus*.
I don’t believe moving to another city may be enough but it seems a solution in terms of the overarching community concerns. So really, what it comes down to is this: will the BDSM community admit they violate the TOS with their obscenity? I think not, seeing how arrogantly and reproachfully they approach the subject now, defying everyone to prove that they are obscene. I think there’s no question that they do in fact violate the TOS, they will be actioned, and it is a problem merely of the slowness of game bureaucracy. Will Maxis/EA weather the screams of “bigotry” and “discrimination” that BDSMers will hurl at them if they ban players from the game? I wonder if these Californians have the stomach that I do for standing up to these bullies.
urizenus
Jan 8th, 2004
TJ and Dyerbrook, this is a really interesting question, so thanks for putting it in focus. I’m not sure how the ESRB goes about evaluating games, but I have to wonder if they have given much thought to MMORPGs, where people are supplying the content. It’s one thing to try and rate Grand Theft Auto, Vice City, where you know what the content is and it is fixed, but how do you rate a MMORPG where thousands of people are adding content to it every minute of the day? I’d be curious to know what if anything the ESRB board is thinking about all this.
toy
Jan 9th, 2004
hmmm was gonna post but remembered this girl no longer reacts to ufounded taunts
toy
Jan 9th, 2004
unfounded*
Brad
Jan 9th, 2004
Question for you Dyerbrook. If I wish to have on my lot, 18 and over or 21 and over, simply because I wish to have adult discussions, not “sex talks” or cursing as many of the teens seem apt to do, then what right do you have to tell me to move to a new server? I have been in Alphaville since beta testing. I have never had a complaint lodged against me to TSO. I do not curse in game, but have booted others for their language. Obscenity by TSO rules applies to cursing, racist remarks, etc. It does not apply to whips, chains, etc. If you happen to think that a remark on a bio is offensive, by all means report it to EA. They’ll investigate it and remove if found offensive. If not, then stop worrying about it. I have seen kids bios that read a heck of a lot worse then any adult bio, BDSMer bio, etc. I have also heard more foul language from the teens in game then from the adults. This is my last time responding to the likes of adults who act like children. Laughs. If only you knew what most of the town thinks and says. Oh well. Such is the life of one who can’t see the forest for the trees.
Dyerbrook
Jan 10th, 2004
I don’t care what the “whole town” says because I know that you can’t possibly be in touch with “the whole town” more than anyone else because you either merely poll lots — with no more than 18 people on them at a time — or listen to radio stations where DJ’s positions actually auctioned off and controlled by various groupings in the game like the SSG so they are not truly a free press. Even if 99 percent of the Sims are truly “for” BDSM, they aren’t a representative sampling of our society.
Your notions about private conversations on lots and IMs may be accurate, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the nature of the whole society, the tone of the game play, and the heavy presence of BDSM on 1/3 of the romance lots and spread out throughout the game. Their offense against the TOS is at times about obscenity, since they talk openly about sex with whips and chains on their bios and about inflicting pain (and never without that alleged Good Housekeeping pledge to be “safe, sane, consensual). They “incite hatred against other players” by branding anyone with even the slightest criticism or questioning of their orthodoxy or cult rituals as “bigoted” and “narrow-minded” and they are prepared to chase and hound and harass anyone with a full-fledged philosophical critique of their lifestyle like me, and finally they also constitute a form of discrimination, since Goreans believe and act as if women are second-class citizens, all BDSM practioners are willing to abide by the imprisonment and enslavement of other players by the caveat “any problems with this sub, talk to the Master not to me” and they also are willing to create a class of citizens, called “subs” who do not have the rights of other Sims to go to the bathroom or even go AFK. They cloak this monstrosity with a notion of “consent” which hardly flies, when we see the maliciousness with which they counter the slightest questioning of their “authority”. So, once again, Brad, no sale. BDSM represents a sophisticated and multi-faceted violation of the TOS. That’s one point of view.
But if you wish to say, oh, no, it doesn’t technically, and proof of that is that Maxis has not taken action, well, then let me point out: that a civilization has many ingredients and elements, and narrowly-construed legal rules are not the only thing that lend it its civility.
There are a certain number of people in the world who think with great, haughty annoyance and a sense of superiority, like yourself, that freedom means licentiousness, that it means “I can do what I want.” Where I come from, we were taught that the right to swing my arm ends where the nose of the other person begins. There is a community to which I have a duty, not just my own rights to do whatever I feel like.
Penny, the BDSMer at rickross.com explained that she did not believe BDSM was the basis for a society. She understood intrinsically that what she did was something that would be criminal in any other setting. She seemed to imply that she wanted people to look the other way, and not prosecute her for her private activities, but she did not think it was for the majority, and that the good of the community could be placed before her own private whims.
None of the children in age or spirit playing BDSM in TSO show anything anywhere near that sort of adult, mature attitude. They make a fetish of writing “you must be 21″ but they fan out all over the game with their recruitment advertisements “I’m looking for a dom, I’m a free sub, I love whips” and parade past minors and children and disgusted adults. They think that because they’ve intimidated lot owners into thinking they will be uncool or intolerant if they say they don’t like BDSM, that they have won community approval. They have not.
Virtual communities are a microcosm of the future. Do I want a future in which all the bars, restaurants, clubs, even schools and libraries are taken over by people with leather and chains who enslave others? I do not. So why should I tolerate it in an online world. My game box talks about “be somebody else”- but it doesn’t say I have to inhabit a world of “somebody elses” who include those at the extreme end of the deviant spectrum who use whips and cords to have sex, and who enslave others, physically and mentally. My game box has a teen rating on it.
Those who rule the BDSM are gambling that this their big moment to break out into the virtual world and gain a foothold there to help establish themselves in the real world as well. They are anticipating static, and they will get it.
Brad
Jan 10th, 2004
I hope that you have fun twisting others words to suit your purposes. You have no ideas of which lots I may or may not have gone to. You know nothing about who I have talked to and who I have not, and for you to pass that kind of judgement on me is wrong, but as I can see from every single one of your posts, very typical of you. I will tolerate you know more and others like me in game grow tired of your childessness.
Quote “There are a certain number of people in the world who think with great, haughty annoyance and a sense of superiority, like yourself, that freedom means licentiousness, that it means “I can do what I want.” Where I come from, we were taught that the right to swing my arm ends where the nose of the other person begins. There is a community to which I have a duty, not just my own rights to do whatever I feel like.”
Just another example of a child throwing a tantrum and resorting to name calling when feels like things are not going his or her way. Grow up. You may physically be a man, but in many ways you remain a child. It’s really sad, but I’ve seen children with more tolerance and patience then you have ever exhibited. I shall reply no more as it’s a lost cause where you are concerned. I hope for the good of your actual community that you never gain even a shred of a position of authority. If you ever did, then God help them all.
James
Jan 11th, 2004
To try to get this thread back on topic…
I already posted about this in the previous thread (Can Alphaville be liberated from EA?), but it has relevance here as well.
EA could sell or rent out the rights to the server to an outside company, who would run the game and collect subscription revenue. It would depend on the conditions in the contract between EA and the company how much of the game could be altered (like adding items or objects), or what the TOS could allow. But such an idea isn’t without precedent, since games like Redmoon have been doing it for years.
brigit
Jan 12th, 2004
actually we all know from experience that TSO is not a game for children……..whether or not any BDSM exists in the game or not….
There is sex and violence ……. among other things that have nothing whatsoever to do with the adult lifestyle of BDSM that go on daily in the suburbs of TSO…..
that being said….i will not go over again the CHOICE to be a part of this lifestyle…and it has been mentioned DOZENS of time that those in the lifestyle POLICE their lots with the arrival of each and every guest….which is much more than any lot in the entire game….
so lets get to the bottom line here……
_yerbrook………..oops there is the bottom line
funny how that is the ONLY name that keeps popping up…..it sounds like a PERSONAL problem to me….one of CLOSEDMINDEDNESS and perhaps one of INFANTILE HARASSMENT and FIT THROWING…..
You know it was so very funny the day that without stalking as i had never seen this _yerbrook person in the game before nor wanted to that i was privy to his outbursts of foul language ….*both hands going to her cheeks her mouth making the O sign* calling the woman in her own home a terrible name…..*shakes head* and yet he is so worried about others reading a bio which uses no language such as i heard…..
perhaps EJ would be a good place for those with nasty mouths….you know the ones that use foul language ….
actually as in life…..we CAN all live together if tolerance is practiced…..tell you what _yerbrook …..we will not all send letters to MAXIS and ask that you be removed to a seperate server….we will let you live in ALPHAVILLE or whereever you like…..perhaps you might learn something……*crosses fingers but seriously doubts it*
Sir Matthews girl………………..brigit
Lphntschld
Jan 12th, 2004
Hmmmm…interesting concept. Kick the kids out of their own game because too many adults are in there playing with the toys? And it’s because the adults cannot manage to behave themselves appropriately around children? That’s not only backwards, but there are laws that cover that. Even a prison society will not tolerate a pedophile. For those of you who can’t spell here, that’s the proper term for an adult that exposes minors to lewd behavior. Alphaville was the first city created in the TEEN RATED Sims Online game. It was always teen rated. Same as all the Sims games before it. Didn’t you notice that on the box when you bought it? I suggest that those of you who want to play a different game go find one. If you can get Maxis to provide another server for you Great! Go play Sex Online on it. Alpha was created for sims.
Mikal
Jan 13th, 2004
In regards to Lphntschid….there are more “teens” having sex in game then there are adults. It’s also not just promoted for “teens” what with the bar…teens aren’t old enough to drink in rl why should it be promoted in a teen game? Also, all the other signs such as the love bed, love tub, and what about all the wonderful violence that “teens” can use in game ie rip heart out? Hmmm….Just so you know the game may state rated for teens…but it never states 13 – 17 or 13 – 18…it just says no one under 13 may play……against TOS rules. No where does it say that an adult may NOT play the game. More adults are playing it and enjoying it and it’s also aimed at adults. i am not exposing any teen to any lewd behavior as i do not do anything in open. i have however popped into other lots and seen “teens” in open describing having sex. Hmm…who is exposing whom to lewd behaviours then? Geeezz……wish all the whiners would just learn umm..what’s that word again? Oh yeah…..tolerance……that’s the word of the year. Look it up…..it’s really fascinating
Mikal
Jan 13th, 2004
In regards to Lphntschid….there are more “teens” having sex in game then there are adults. It’s also not just promoted for “teens” what with the bar…teens aren’t old enough to drink in rl why should it be promoted in a teen game? Also, all the other signs such as the love bed, love tub, and what about all the wonderful violence that “teens” can use in game ie rip heart out? Hmmm….Just so you know the game may state rated for teens…but it never states 13 – 17 or 13 – 18…it just says no one under 13 may play……against TOS rules. No where does it say that an adult may NOT play the game. More adults are playing it and enjoying it and it’s also aimed at adults. i am not exposing any teen to any lewd behavior as i do not do anything in open. i have however popped into other lots and seen “teens” in open describing having sex. Hmm…who is exposing whom to lewd behaviours then? i suggest you look up a word..it’s tolerance……that’s the word of the year. Look it up…..it’s really fascinating
Lphntschld
Jan 13th, 2004
In response to Mikel
There’s a word called responsibility. Look it up. Why do you choose a teen rated game for adult activity? AND if you are not exposing children to lewd behavior…why did you bother to respond?
What do you want me to tolerate? pedophelia? Child abuse is suddenly ok because teens were messing around on a couch? Sexual misconduct with a minor is illegal, there is no room for tolerance on that matter! Do I understand that you’re actually trying to claim it’s ok to break that law because you saw teens behaving badly? I thought you said you were an adult! Just goes to show how hard it is to tell the difference from a text. Try listening this time IT’S RATED AS A TEEN GAME! It always was! It is the adults breaking TOS and the law that are in the wrong place! NOT the people that came to play sims, and not the teens! I don’t care what you do privately with another adult. If it were private this wouldn’t be an issue.
The subject is whether the kids should be booted from Alpha or not, the reason being that adults cannot behave responsibly in a game they knew was teen rated when they bought it. So some kid that has managed to survive since play test loses his/her simmy because the adults cant play nice and follow the rules? Sorry. Nope. Makes no sense. I don’t know what you expect me to tolerate. I can’t find anything valid there.
Dyerbrook
Jan 13th, 2004
Mikal’s arguments sound chillingly like the arguments of the rapist who says his victim “had it coming” or was “begging for it.” It’s like the argument of the pedophile who says that the child was a sophisticated vamp who was tempting him, and not an innocent. Suddenly, it is not people brandishing whips in a dungeon who are wrong, it’s the cybering teens who IM them and ask to be spanked — they’re the ones to be blamed, it’s the children who are to blame, not these capering adults flaunting a lifestyle. For shame!
And his argument that “everyone is doing it” is the oldest in the book. It reminds me of a kid whining to his mother and saying, “But, ma, everybody’s doing it,” and being told, “But if everybody jumps off a bridge, will you jump too? Supposedly there are all these teens cybering, and by contrast, they make Rose and Petal look like an old ladies’ quilting bee. Get off it!
I have been in the game for a year, on a lot of lots. I have never actually seen a teen propsition an adult. I have seen adults proposition teens, and older teens proposition younger teens, knowingly, or unknowingly. But I actually haven’t seen it go on as much as Mikal seems to think it does, but that may be because he lives in a haze of sex in the game and that is not what I come to this game for.
The game creates an unequal climate. It is a masqued ball. It would be better if adults used more self-restraint. The caveat that only over 21 or over 18 can come on a lot is not sufficient. And one wonders, in a teen-rated game, why it is OK to create over-18 lots anyway, that ought to be on a separate server.
The idea that tolerance is supposed to extend to the very elimination of tolerance itself is straight from hell. And that is what we have here — a way of life that seeks to dominate, constrain, subject, etc.
I think lphntschld is right on the money saying that BDSM is exactly that lewdness to which children should not be exposed.
Mikal
Jan 13th, 2004
No, i’m saying that i do not nor ever will mess with an underaged child. Just because i am playing a game that is rated teen, it is also aimed at adults like it or not. i would never say that it’s ok to have sexual scenes nor anything of that nature with a child…and if i was breaking the TOS, i’d have gotten booted by now. i am a father of two wonderful children and would never do anything to hurt them nor any other child. As i stated, i don’t do anything in open where a “child” would see. i do NOT go to a vanilla lot and discuss sexuality nor do i discuss my lifestyle choice. And that’s exactly what that is, a lifestyle choice. i do not advertise whips and chains on my bio nor anything that would be conscrued as advertising. What i list there is for me. It’s how i wish to describe myself. As i said, i am doing nothing against TOS. And i, for the record, do not believe that teens should be booted from AV anymore than i believe adults should be. That’s ~anothers~ warped opinion. This is my last post as it seems no matter what one says, those ~one or two~ will always warp it for their own purpose. Have a wonderful day. smirk
Dyerbrook
Jan 13th, 2004
OK, Mikal, oh, I get it, as a sub, you leave it to your domme to advertise the whips. Lady Julianna, your domme, has written on her profile, “Mikal, bring me my whip.” Or did you forget that? Is the whip lost? Maybe you have to look for it where Lord Cheetah lost his car keys?
The argument that you stay on your lot is meaningless because hundreds of your fellow BDSMers roam around the game, skilling, making money, and going to contests, all with their big BDSM recruitment ads hanging out on their profiles, calling for people to come into their lifestyle, hitting on them, propositioning them, bringing them around, knowingly and not, and all in the presence of teenagers and kids.
Yesterday I heard a story of someone on a vanilla romance lot being picked up by a BDSMer who wasn’t so blatantly BDSM in his profile to immediately attract attention. The lot owner, however, noticed the old rose-and-thorns thing and IM’d the visitor that she was about to go off with someone in “the lifestyle” — something about which this player knew nothing before being picked up. She went off happily, and later IM’d the lot owner that she thought it was “cute” the way the subs were calling her “sister” and curtsying and calling each other “Ma’am” and “Sir”. Let’s see if it stays this cute for her. Maybe she will find happiness; maybe she will run screaming in two weeks. But the fact remains: she was not into it, and she was recruited, and not recruited on a BDSM lot, but a vanilla lot, and not recruited knowingly.
One of the things I find humorous about this debate is the frequently with which the dommes and subs “dismiss you” or tell you “they aren’t going to post anymore.” What are you afraid of?
Maria LaVeaux
Jan 13th, 2004
I wish to addess one point regarding “Adult Behaviour”
“I have seen kids bios that read a heck of a lot worse then any adult bio, BDSMer bio, etc. I have also heard more foul language from the teens in game then from the adults.”
It is interesting to me that Every time people Discuss the subject of Protecting the Little Darlings from all the Evil adults out there, they Inevitably end up sighting Instances and Incidents where an Uncouth or Sexually Agressive Teen has Accosted Adults.
It has been my greater experience in three or more cities that the whole purpose of establishing 18+ lots has not so much been to allow us Liscence for explicite behaviour so much as it has been to allow us a little peace from the Relentless advances of the younger people. On any given evening, in one of our “Sick and twisted” BD/SM lots you will see such shocking things as People playing chess or pool. Your ears will be accosted with Obcenities like Frank Discussions of Poetry, or Classic Movies. What Amazes people is, when they land on our lots, there is NOT a continuous Orgy in progress, and their Friendly greetings of “Hey, Anyone want to F**k?” almost always results in their being summerily booted, banned and ignored.
We share common interests, but Crudity is not tolerated. People are often cautioned about using Foul Language (A Trait i find particularly unladylike, and disapprove of thoroughly.).
Cocoanut came to My Lady Julianna’s home, she and i spoke at length. If you don’t wish to take my word, Ask her. How many lewd propositions did she receive? What were the topics of the various conversations going on? What was the most Outrageous thing she witnessed? The answers will surprise you. Yes,, we Do have more,,,Stimulating entertainments as well. These are done on closed lots and are by invitation only.
You see, Even among the “Most Extreme” examples of Adult lots, the aim is the same, That we NOT be subjected to the Adolescent Wheedling of Those young people who substitute Hormones for grey matter.
So now,, DO we establish an Adults only server? On the surface, it sounds good. but Some people want to Immediatly take it upon themselves to decide just what adult behaviour takes place there. My Comments quoted above. were in response to a namless indevidual of rather extreme views who, upon realizing that an adult lot would, By Default, Automaticly include BD/SM lots responded with the Acronym “OMDB” which i beleive i correctly translate as “Over My Dead Body”. So,, Now we in his view have a server for children, AND a server for Adults where they can only do G-rated activities? More or less defeats the whole reasonong for having an adult server. So,, we get an adult server where PG, or R-rated activities are allowed, Persons like the indevidual who quoted me get up in arms,, then what? We won’t leave the game, and we certainly don’t feel comfortable saying he should. So, what is the answer? Another server? and another? and another? Each one filtering out Material that one or more groups finds objectionable based on Personal Prejudice?
Face it, It will Never happen. Maxis will just dump the whole thing before it gets to that.
The game rating specifies that anyone over the age of 13 may play as long as they do not violate TOS. Is TOS perfect, That depends on where you look at it from. The Racist wouldn’t think so because he keeps getting suspended for voicing his views aloud where ever he goes. The Right winger wouldn’t think so because Gays and other “Deviant behaviour” isn’t barred Immediatly just for the crime of existing. The Griefer wouldn’t think so because his “Harmless fun” isn’t tolerated. I might not think so because people can wage a systematic campaign of Lies that Skirts, but never crosses the line of Harassment that TOS has set out.
So now,, we are left in a world where there are teens and adults, as well as various views on what “Adult” Means and NO way to force the rest of the sim community to play by OUR rules. All i can say is, Wonderful, it leaves us with the only option possible.
LEARN TO LIVE TOGETHER IN PEACE.
If you have to be a little more careful not to offend others,, Fine,, do it. If something on another lot offends you, Fine, Use your constitutuionally Guarenteed freedom to just walk away.
But for Heavans sake Stop all this Nonsense about segragation, and “Who’s game world is it anyway?”
We ALL created it, We ALL have a stake in it. and as long as we play by the rules and pay our subscription, we ALL have a right to be there.
Thank you for tolerating my Rant. Lol.
Maria.
Lola
Jan 14th, 2004
I’ve posted on this subject before, after Maria’s interview. So I don’t have a lot to say except a lot of these replies are personal attacks, not disccusions on the subject.
I am hearing a lot of specific examples of incidents. . those are good, because a specific example shows one unarguable concrete action to be addressed. But the way one person or some people behave shouldn’t speak for a community. If someone in a BSDM lifestyle is going out and ‘recruiting’ unknowing or potentionally unwilling sims, ban the f**ker, by all means. But don’t use their actions as an example of what every single person in a large community does.
Just because one person on one side is an arrogant jerk (and I will not say who I think might be behaving immaturely or arrogantly, so that no one specifically can take offense to being accused of such jerkery), doesn’t mean everyone on that side is an arrogant jerk. If the entire discussion of an 18+ server is going to turn in to another BSDM argument, please keep this in mind and maybe it will be a productive one for a change.
NickE
Feb 2nd, 2004
Why make an Adults only city? I think what they need to do before they make that is close down one of the ghost town cities, such as East Jerome, because of population problems. Maxis should be able to move there sim and sim age and money etc, to a diff. city. Tso cities are getting SMALLER.
athena
Feb 16th, 2004
I was a beta tester in tso when it first came available, and I left tso months after it became public because I am an adult and didnt want to continue in a kids world.
I think an adult server might bring back some of the original members such as myself, who would like to be among ages over 21. It would also segratate the kids from the adults and would prevent problems.
There are adult virtual programs out there, by the way. Moove online,and a new rpg which is in beta now, sociolotron comes to mind. The internet is not only populated by kids. I think there is a need out there for adults to have a place as well.
Ulyssees
Apr 7th, 2004
Here is in an adult world in the works, think it’ll go live soon, they have a beta application form online:
http://www.lustworlds.com