It Has To Be Said: No Men Allowed
by Jessica Holyoke on 30/07/10 at 9:18 pm
I have been walking around a few different sims looking for feminist leaning cafes and the like. When looking for a feminist cafe, more often than not I run into clubs that says in big, huge letters "No Men." And really, those signs are saying "no male typists", not, "no male avatars". Now obviously, this is incredibly discriminatory. However, there is a good question as to whether a sim that is open to the public – except for men – is the same thing as a public place in the real world, subject to the same anti-discrimination laws.
Although I brought all of this up before, when a friend came over to visit I realized something new. Some readers might not know I was an SL whore for a long time, and was even mentioned on the CBS Early Show. At the end of my tenure, I was the hiring manager for a SL strip club called the PinkPussy Cat.
In looking to see if my friend and former co-worker’s application was still in my files, I noticed the old policy manual and looked into it for nostalgia’s sake. Inside was a policy statement on transgendered avatars which stated that the club didn’t care if you were a man or a woman in RL, just so long as you were consistent in that choice. Being a woman one day and the man the next inside the club wouldn’t fly. Now wipe the shock off your face, there were men possessing female avatars. And no, I won’t tell you who.
Possessing – I think I like that term. I possess my avatar, as opposed to run or operate.
When voice came to the Grid, it was a big deal – you could tell that your female stripper was actually a female in RL. But even before that point, there were clubs who either solely selected female typists or did not ever want to know differently.
But being a female or male stripper in SL isn’t at all like working at Hooters or being in a movie. Just because a typist is a woman, it doesn’t mean she’s a great SL stripper. Also just because there is an 18 year old size 4 stripper on your screen, doesn’t mean you have an 18 year old size 4 stripper possessing the avatar.
If SL strip clubs are really about generating content, disregard the behavior arguments, independent contracting, and other policy implications of the people working onstage. If the SL strip club is only selecting women typists to be female strippers, what you have is blatant employment gender discrimination.
If the avatar is only a content driven animation, it doesn’t matter who possesses the avatar. All you need to do for the job is to shop at the right places, know how to interact with people, and type and write with reasonable skill. You don’t have to *be* a woman to know how to possess a female stripper avatar, and a man isn’t suddenly gay because he read a story written by another guy.
Really, if you are looking at SL as a behavior medium, I can still argue that no men allowed policies are discrimination due to gender expression which does not fundamentally affect the good or service. Of course, no government agency, or attorney for that matter, would go after one of these clubs to enforce non-discrimination laws because of all the issues that pop up in prosecuting virtual world providers. But this doesn’t make discrimination right.
A fun example my Mom once told me about concerned a male ex-Marine who had a feminine enough voice that he was able to work as a phone sex operator catering to men who wanted women. Again, its the skills for the job, not the equipment, that matters.
Nelson Jenkins
Aug 4th, 2010
@ We
It’s not too impressive, most people just assume you’re a girl ’till the pants come off, then it either plays out like a stereotypical dickgirl hentai comic or they tear their face off and run away screaming.
Walter
Aug 4th, 2010
“Spoken by a true dork that only a mother could love.”
I feel sorry for his Mum.
Al the Pretender
Aug 5th, 2010
@Yep….you little lesbian or feminist….i don’t really care…i just say it’s stupid…
Child Avatar is DIFFERENT
a Furry can be DIFFERENT if you want humans
and like inRL…..there is a MUTE button…the are Hosts normally with ban powers you can complain….And cut the crap….A lot of those “No Men Allowed” places…..is full of lesbian sex!!! or Lesbian cuddle and thats why no men’s allowed
…unlike the regular straight club…….and i am not refering to a Zindra Clubs….that have the right to exist!
Your “No Men’s Allowed” can exist too….they are just hypochrythe in my book
…they smell revenge…..meh whatever.
but talking this to you islaike talking to a brick wall, “girl” “boy” or “whatever” you are
Kae
Aug 5th, 2010
Studying Al’s post is like a primer in deciphering the retard language.
Pappy Enoch
Aug 5th, 2010
Nelson done said:
“Because everyone posting here is a 40-year-old fat guy living off of welfare that plays SL through a lesbian female avatar.”
Hell boy, I resents that sum’fin fierce. I are 50. And I don’t git no welfare cause I are in jail.
Gaara Sandalwood
Aug 5th, 2010
@Al’s wall of text:………………………………wat?
Bubblesort Triskaidekaphobia
Aug 5th, 2010
I love Al’s wall of text. It’s outlandishly stupid, but for some reason as I read it I feel compelled to keep reading, trying to decipher it, like a puzzle. I mean, I know there is no concept under those words, so there is no solution, but I enjoy trying anyway.
Don’t judge me!
IntLibber is a bad joke
Aug 5th, 2010
Last I checked, pretending to be a woman is a fetish.
Emperor Norton hears a who?
Aug 5th, 2010
IntLibber is a bad joke ! “Last I checked, pretending to be a woman is a fetish.”
You know who else pretended to be a woman?
Ernst Röhm
Ernst Röhm! was the head of Hitler’s SA.
Hitler was in Rio Rita (1942) with Tom Conway.
Tom Conway was in Prince Valiant (1954) with Robert Wagner.
Robert Wagner was in Wild Things (1998) with Kevin Bacon.
So you see pretending to be a woman leads to Kevin Bacon.
had enough
Aug 6th, 2010
You know this who discussion reminds me of an old South Park episode. The one where Cartman buys his own amusement park that no body wanted to go to. that is until cartman put a private keep out sign on the gate. Then people were doing flips and twists wanting to enter the park.
Who cares if people have all girls or all boys clubs? The only reason you want in is because you are told you cannot.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Aug 6th, 2010
I find it cute that a bunch of SLfags think they can verify someone’s gender.
verbena pennyfeather
Aug 6th, 2010
I find it adorable that people still cling to these worn out definitions of gender. With current medical knowledge (no, not the wishywashy TS/TG hopes)……ehh, gross anatomy is a tiny part of it.
Born with a penis? Klienfelters Syndrome, or HY androgen receptor screwup in a 46 XX. Define the Gender
Born with boobs and a vagina? CAIS, 46 XY genetic makeup, external gross anatomy is female, internal, male. Which is it?
Assorted classes of Androgen insensitivites, both sides? Defining by chromosomes fails see above. We’re all conceived default female until hormones register a change, if needed. Hypersensitize/insensitize those receptors, well, what gender?
Feminists try to make it so cut and dry. Same as the crazy religious folk. Yer all bonkers, I think.
Emperor Norton hears a who?
Aug 6th, 2010
Can you imagine the shock and horror when the guy pretending to be woman you are cybering with turns out to really be a woman? Some times those huge tits fool you.
Ana Herzog
Aug 8th, 2010
I had an island called Womens Center for three years and had a female only Sandbox. It was hell because of the griefing. It was wonderful because of the amazing women builders I met who just wanted to build in peace… just like me. Sometimes a girl just needs a sim of her own. It will soon open again as a Hypergrid Sandbox, but this time you will have to buy a membership, is being developed under the name of Virtuality… and as before Female avatars only, no sexual behavior, pick up after yourself, and put the toilet seat down.
Ginny James
Aug 14th, 2010
This piece of writing just goes to show that you don’t have to have a dick to be a dick. Because who wanders around “looking for feminist leaning cafes and the like” just so they can have a beef about women wanting women only spaces so they can hang with, you know, other women. But it gets better! The thought process is feminist leaning cafes and the like > whores & strippers. Jessica, you are truly a dumbass.
Jessica Holyoke
Aug 15th, 2010
@Ginny
No..just no. If you thought that the purpose of this article was to write about women wanting to be with other women, then you missed out on the point of the article. A
I would love to hear how you think that I wrote that feminist leaning cafes are greater than whores & strippers. Ironically because if I used to be able to go to a number of feminist cafes in SL a year ago. Now if I hit all search options, I get a femdom place and SLLU’s place. And don’t get me started on how many places there are for strippers.
Grendel
Aug 20th, 2010
no way to tell if the person behind the avi is male or female, voice is no real evidence, as there are ways to change your voice, as well as some men sound like women, some women sound like DR. Girlfriend.
and reall, who cares? just relax and don’t worry about the reality behind the illusion
Sarie Brinner
Aug 23rd, 2010
It seems everyone misses the point.
Sl is a fantasy world
A place to live your dreams
Please leave your Real life where it belongs
My god the bigots are everywhere
Poor things