The Alphaville Herald

38 Responses to “Op/Ed: Island Owners to LL: New Continent and Tier Payments Are Killing Us!!!”

1. 

   G.W.
   

   Oct 21st, 2008
   

   I was with you until you brought free accounts into it. That has nothing to do with the rest of what you were talking about and is a fairly lame attempt at plugging in an issue that many people (apparently you included) seem to have some inexplicable vendetta on and if I were LL (and I’m glad I’m not) That insistence (which they have many times refused) would be reason enough to ignore the rest of your letter.
2. 

   so?
   

   Oct 21st, 2008
   

   So? and you justify wasting this kind of money how? NO RL, NO SOCIAL LIFE, NO FAMILY, NO CEREBRAL CORTEX? hang out at starbucks and load up on coffee you loser

   its CHEAPER!
3. 

   mootykips
   

   Oct 22nd, 2008
   

   >investments
   >internet islands

   laughingelfman.jpg
4. 

   Reality
   

   Oct 22nd, 2008
   

   Step 6: throw this letter in the trash when you are done reading it.

   Current full sim prices for setup are closer to one thousand dollars the last time I took a look. You want to change something? How about a refund to you of the current difference in start up costs?

   Oh yes …. and restricting ‘free’ accounts? Um, on what grounds would you say this should be done? I know many people that buy Lindens all the time on the Lindex. they are also supporting the lab. Kindly get your head out of your ass.
5. 

   Prokofy Neva
   

   Oct 22nd, 2008
   

   Did you ever hear that expression that people use to describe a boat in RL? “A boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money”.

   Second Life is a hole in the Internet into which you pour money. It’s hard to get money back out of it. You have to have a keen eye and steady nerves and willingness to eat a lot of losses.

   I’m the first one to say that the Lindens should get out of this business of making fancy sims and content with their $10/hour moles and selling better mainland in direct competition with resident businesses. They claim they aren’t in the content business when they talk to enterprise people (as they did just now with the joint project with RRR called “Immersive Workspaces”) — so why can’t that rule hold as well with inworld business?! If they encourage their many pet “solutions providers” to sell and resell SL-related goods and services, why not us, too? Why do they hate us? Why are they so *jealous*? Is it become taken as a whole, we make more money than they do, and they want a piece of it? Is that really what it has always been about? But…they charge more…we have more exposure…in the end, we all lose because they control the wage level by controlling the cashout rate, and keeping it at a flat $1000/$3.65 generally…

   I’ve roundly criticized the Lindens over Bay City and now Nautilus City for making this giant legend of high-priced auctions competing directly with us — and in ways that we can’t possibly ever recreate, because none of us would ever be able to get 20 sims contiguously together off the auctions, it’s just not possible. Anyone with a notion for a continent of that nature has to go to the islands.

   Having said all that, however, I have to make several refutations of your points. First, it is simply not mainland that competes with you; it is other islands.

   There are about 5,000 mainland sims, of these probably 10-15 percent are Governor Linden owned land, infrastructure, Linden Village, Concierge, etc. Another good chunk are end-user owned parcels or whole sims — they are not island customers. And the rest of the land are rentals — rental agents with whom you as islanders constantly compete, and have enjoyed the lion’s share of business, beating out mainland again and again because of the features islands have — the ability to offer people land that you can have them deed to their group, so that they as officers of their land have utter control over ban lines, naming, etc. You can also reset failing sims any time on your own and manage scripts and objects and make global sim bans and such.

   Given that mainland as a whole with its possible 2500 sims in rental agents’ hands is not a significant competition to you as private islands with 25,000 sims, Linden activity on the mainland isn’t a competition to you, it’s a competition to us mainlanders. Of course, in general, because of its high visibility and the use of the Linden blog and auction megaphones, it has a huge advantage, so it is a competition in a sense in general, but it isn’t 20 sims worth of mainland builds you have to worry about, it’s the next 20, and the next 20, and the next 20 after that among your openspaces and private islands.

   In Nautilus, the Lindens are selling 1024 m2 plots that cannot be joined or subdivided, apparently, as Bay City. They may go for a fortune; they may go for a modest price, it doesn’t matter — they’ll get a good initial price most likely, and would have to make another 20 right away to reduce that price. It will be a niche market.

   The Lindens have no earthly reason to dial back island tier from $295 to $195. Sims cost money for them to run on the grid. They can afford to reduce the initial purchase cost and supposedly pass along their own savings, but they can’t afford to reduce maintenance because that is salaries and overhead. They will not be doing this. There is no reason for them to raise mainland tier to $295 when mainland doesn’t have the features of the islands, and still has the ad farms problem and lack of zoning issues still to compete with (sims can be rendered useless by the presence of a club on just one parcel, for example).

   The Lindens have no objective need for us to have our rentals’ businesses. They are all about shaking us loose pretty much now, in favour of enterprises, solutions providers, education, and government. We are merely one sector, and one that they want to significantly reduce. To be sure, I think we still pay them more tier than these others, but we also create the most problems for them.

   Your idea that free accounts are draining support personnel isn’t rational — the free accounts can’t get tech support or any kind of help from Lindens. They are possibly a drain in the sense of taking up G-team time with griefing, but I think that is vastly exaggerated. Many free accounts have substantial amounts of Lindens moving through them, so it is misleading to consider all free NPIOF accounts as “drains”. They are more often than not able to move on to buying Lindens.

   The are way too many islands on the market. The Lindens are not going to stop selling islands to solve this problem. They are solving this another way — forcing rentals companies and people who thought “to just have a friend share the costs” out of business through sheer, harsh Darwinism. Only the most determined, deep-pocketed, and compelling are to remain, and they don’t care. They can’t care, because they aren’t in the business to create a world with viable small business as partners, they’re purely in the business of selling server space. Your need to resell their server space is not of the slightest interest to them. There is no dedicated staff member for small business, the way there is for educators, and for enterprises. They do not care, and will not be caring.

   These harsh lessons have to be absorbed, and while you can fight them, and I do fight them, you have to be realistic about your life as an endangered and nearly extinct species in Second Life.

   The people like me or you who have “helped the grid grow” and took care of legions of customers so the Lindens don’t have to aren’t ever appreciated by the Lindens. Their holding of Concierge parties is merely a gesture for people who are end users of islands, as they see it. They never talk about rental companies, they never encourage them, they never acknowledge them because they do not want them. For a time, they may be more dependent on them for purchases and tier than from education or enterprise or government, but they hope fervently all that will change. We can’t have any illusions about that.

   Your notion that Mainland sims have no set-up fees is absolutely incorrect. Of course they do! Where did you get the dumb idea that they are free?! They must be purchased from the auction, or from another resident inworld. For the longest time, that price was at least $2500 or $3500 per sim, double or even triple what islands cost. Today, they are no longer auctioned since the glut of the summer, but they were down to an opening price of $750 on the auctions, and go for $1000 or $1250 after bidding, or even $2000 or more for prime waterfront, and thus are usually *more* than the island cost. They don’t need “setting up” but they sure as hell have to be paid for up front.

   Your notions of mainland costs are skewed by your saturation with the island lobby hatred of the mainland. Mainland has way more costs and much worse occupancy. It has far more vulnerability to griefing and ad farms. Rental agents have to secure the view on 4 sims usually to have a viable business, if not more. They constantly have to “buy the view” as it breaks out on their flanks. To buy up the last parcel on their sim, they often have to pay a ridiculous price as extortionists, knowing they need prims and are trying to run a business, deliberately jack up the price on the auctions when a piece is abandoned or inworld.

   Anyone with any SL business sense would look at your numbers and simply say: you are in over your head. You should not be spending $6000 up front and paying over $1000 a month in tier unless you had a list of prepaid waiting customers and/or was assured of such a steady customer base that you could have 85 percent if not 95 percent occupancy. The lead time to make back your purchase price is just too far out. You are wailing now because you don’t have occupancy in an island-saturated market, but that’s because many of the 25,000 islands are for rent, too, not because the Lindens have 20 sims on the mainland, or because I have 20 sims on the mainland, or anybody else does. It’s a small factor, but not as big a problem as your fellow islanders.

   When the Lindens put island tier to $295, it’s a wonder anyone could stay in business. Because it meant that an end user could buy a mainland 4096 and pay tier of $25 US a month and have full control over his parcel, or pay $50 in rent to an island struggling with $295, and not have full control. Given that factor, he will either buy mainland, rent a cheaper island, or step up a bit and save for an openspaces at $75/mo — which is all our problems now as THAT is what has saturated the market.

   Unfortunately for us, this is insect politics. The Lindens have every reason in the world to pay $10/hour to moles, roll out a gorgeous continent, sell it for huge prices as small double-prim lots.

   If you are running a business, and you have a choice of selling:

   1. An island for $1000
   2. A full mainland sim off the auction which may not fetch a bid due to glut for $850 (bids open at $750)
   3. A full mainland sim chopped up into 64 1024 m2 parcels, with some buildings and parks on it made by $10/hour moles, selling on the auction at about L$50,000 a piece (as Bay City has sold), i.e. US $182, fetching a grand total of US $11,648
   *per sim*, what do you do?

   Try those numbers again: a) $850 b) $1000 c) $11,648.

   Rentals mystery math is absolutely brutal: if your occupancy goes down to 80 percent, your revenue is cut by 50 percent due to the fixed cost of tier.

   Do the math, get out of the business unless you feel you are utterly compelling, can lose money, or enjoy what you do.
6. 

   Anon
   

   Oct 22nd, 2008
   

   Nicely worded letter. To bad M will simply laugh at it, if he gets the letter at all. Odds are some admin working for him will just discard it.

   And Spike Linden needs to be fired. He’s a tool that has been around far to long to any longer be of any benefit to the community.
7. 

   Who Cares
   

   Oct 22nd, 2008
   

   Just like Justin Timberlake said… Cry me a river

   You’re not investing in SL. You’re renting server space to try to make money from subleasing to some other avatar, Miss Landlord. If it were all about creating things and builds, why not rent property from someone instead?

   If you were really investing in LL, you’d pony up some serious capital and buy an equity stake.

   So if you bought shares of Lehman Brothers before it tanked and didn’t get out, you expect to get your money back? Business is business and where there is reward, there is risk.

   Can’t stand risk? Hide your money in your mattress.
8. 

   On behalf of all Second Life Herald readers
   

   Oct 22nd, 2008
   

   Obviously, nobody is actually representing all island owners of SL.
   Pretending to do it is silly.
9. 

   Neo Citizen
   

   Oct 22nd, 2008
   

   No, it isn’t silly at all. If nobody speaks up, ever, then what? This isn’t about whether it’s a good idea to pour money into the virtual economy by buying sims or not. It’s about Linden Lab making it possible for investors to at least have a fighting chance. I understand that Linden Lab needs to make a profit, but frankly they’d make more of one over the long term if they helped their customers at least break even some of the time.
10. 

    janeforyou Barbara
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    Secondlife are first of all FUN! If you can afford a private Island its even more fun!
    And if you got talent for it you may in time even make mony!……But if you think you can just trow up 2 or 3 SIM and some mall and belive you can make mony you wil fail…
    You start in the small.. you build stone by stone,, you save your mony in good times and you can be secure in bad times ( just like RL) I my self started carefull with 1 sim in 2006 slowly i builded up to 5 sim and slowly i made mony but i never took out 1 cent,,all went back to my sims.And yes its downtimes just now, everting go up and down, but i can understand if you dont got any reserves build up that it can be hard, and yes many do give up and cant afford to be in SL with there sims, i se malls and clubs closing every day.. my guess are 2000 to 3000 Malls and clubs will go down before new yare.But new comes in and places are rebuild. The problem may be that there are 50.000 ppl online in 25.000 SIM that = a lot of sims are neer empty and other got 30 to 40 k traffick ( not counting bots) It will be harder to do business and the best ans strongest will survive ( just as in RL ? )
11. 

    FlipperPA Peregrine
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    Any money (or time) put into Second Life should be considered the highest-possible risk investment you can make. You’re not invested in a regulated free market, you’re investing in a product that a single for-profit company owns, where they can change the rules of the market on a whim. While I appreciate that nobody likes to see an asset depreciate, it is a fact of life, and you’re in the most high-risk environment possible. If you want to make money safely, invest up to $100,000 in an ING Orange Savings account at 3%, not Second Life.

    I also find it difficult to believe you’ve spoken to “over 1000 island owners” – claims like that cut into the credibility of your post, and detract from the point you’re trying to make.

    Never bite off more than you can chew in RL or SL. Realize that *ANY* stock you buy on the NYSE has the possibility of becoming worthless over night, and your SL property may too. What would you do if Linden Lab went out of business tomorrow – or sold to Google, who decided to shut the grid?

    Regards,

    -Flip
12. 

    Jahar Aabye
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    I never thought I’d actually say this, but Prok wrote a very concise, thoughtful, and brutally accurate assessment not only of this craptacular “letter” but of the situation in general.

    Personally, I prefer islands to mainland for many reasons: They are less laggy both because they tend to run on better equipment (class 5 servers, although I’ve been on a few class 4 Islands, not fun), and because there’s better control over scripts and other potentially lag-inducing content, and finally because you can reduce the number of child agents by having the island isolated and thus not have a sim on each side full of people.

    That being said, I’ve long wondered how on Earth island estate owners could really make any income from rentals unless they had a fairly large number of islands, which would require a fairly high startup cost. I actually started thinking about this back when the banks imploded, trying to figure out how one would ever be able to recoup a startup loan for a real-estate venture given the profit margins.

    The real root problem is that there are fixed expenses, and so as Prok said, you absolutely must have nearly full occupancy because you need that revenue to offset expenses that will accrue regardless of your number of tenants. Leaving aside the fact that LL is not going to lower the tier on island estates for exactly the reasons that Prok mentions (although they do still have some class 4 islands that are “grandfathered” at the old 195 rate, but trust me, class 4 islands are really sluggish), it’s always going to be some fixed rate, so you will always have that overhead.

    But the issue that I’m getting to, aside from the ones that Prok already mentioned, is that there is a mentality in SL that everyone should be able to make it big, get ahead, pull in profits. Unfortunately, SL is a market, even if it is a somewhat highly controlled one, and in markets, not everyone wins. Hell, not everyone comes out equally well from it. Sometimes it’s due to talent, often it’s just luck of the draw. In other SL sectors, it’s pretty much understood that there is no free lunch, you not only have to put in a lot of effort to make something that people will want to spend money on, but then you have to go and do it better than the other people out there who are doing the same thing. And if a competitor puts out a popular product, tough luck, better head back to the drawing board.

    Prok’s right that you overinvested, you put in more resources than you should, but more importantly, what have you done to develop that land and make it more attractive to potential tenants? Leaving aside the price, what have you done to make people want to rent from you instead of from someone else? In SL, there are always people willing to pay more for something if it’s what they really want, and many of the sales industries display multiple levels of talent and cost.

    And of course, if after examining your books and going over your revenues and debits, you find that you’re not filling out all your sims, why not get rid of one or two? Granted, that has issues of its own, but you could consider getting rid of one sim and offering the tenants spots on the remaining sims.
13. 

    Rock Ramona
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    This is not LL fault,just like its not GMC s fault you bought the 40k Denali sitting in your garage you cannot afford,or the 350k house you bought that is actally worth only 140k that you now have 3 mortgages on,and its not Visa s fault that you are carrying 30k credit card debt so that you and yer kids could wear the latest fashions.LL is not overcharging,you my dear simply cannot afford it.Iam disabled and run a family of 4 household on 1800 dollars per month.I used to spend 50 dollars a month on SL as my entertainment,but then my car broke down and i needed 1300 to fix it.Now that money goes to my mechanic and i no longer have a home in sl.Did i cry whine piss and moan to the Lindens???nooooooo,i just did the right thing and gave up what i had to and such is life.I still come to sl and have fun and visit my friends.I think instead of wasting your time yelling at people who have done nothing wrong,you should check with some financial advisors,they have them free if you contact the right people.You are not alone and there is help out there for people who have gotten themselves in over their heads.Yes,its going to hurt at first,and you have to learn to live within your means,but this doesnt mean life stops.I built an ultralight airplane by hand with all used and donated parts and had a ball with my kids doing it.Now people ask me if i spent 75k on it and i chuckle,makes ya feel good inside.Maybe you should dump yer islands and just be a visitor,its not all that bad.I have friends who offer me to come build on their properties,i have people who tell me i can stay at their places anytime i want.Its hard times sweety,but is has to happen,you just bought something you shouldnt have and you are looking to blame someone else,do yerself a favor and blame yerself,go to the mirror and take a good hard look at yer situation,then go turn on cnn and watch the stories ,its time for a wake up call ,I truly hope it all works out for you..you know what you have to do…now go do it
14. 

    Brujah Fortitude
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    Do you really think they care about you, or your letter, at the beggining of 2007, i was trying to get over 150islands for a major enterprise, we were thinking on a full residential, commercial area, then i was asked to go to ask lindenlab about it, i sent a ticket saying i was thinking about geting over 50+ islands, and was asking about tiers, and somekind of business we could make to go trough, now ask me, what do you think they answer me? “They paste a link with the fees” Thanks a lot, LindenLab

    I used to have as much islands u have now on secondlife, i sold them all, thanks god, i did that before that high flush of mainland sims, and got some good money, invested on RL, believe me, i´m making a lot more out secondlife.

    At this point, LindenLabs, had already get all money they would want, copybots and texturelammers are all around, nothing is being made, i just saw a 16k sqm mainland for 30k Linden (come on), my toughts, “second life is going to end soon, or it will be back to time, and become a game”.

    If for some reason, they actually come with a solution, i´d be very happy to invest again at secondlife, but right now… its just as that guy said… go to starbucks, its cheaper.
15. 

    Corsi Mousehold
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    Okay a point that no one has made yet is the step-up on the mainland. Which is as follows:

    1/128 Region 512 sqm 117 US$5
    1/64 Region 1,024 sqm 234 US$8
    1/32 Region 2,048 sqm 468 US$15
    1/16 Region 4,096 sqm 937 US$25
    1/8 Region 8,192 sqm 1,875 US$40
    1/4 Region 16,384 sqm 3,750 US$75
    1/2 Region 32,768 sqm 7,500 US$125
    Entire Region 65,536 sqm 15,000 US$195

    Now lets keep in mind the first 512 costs a RESIDENT (Not sim owner) 9.99$ a month for mainland (Private Island cost … zero)
    So just for the first little 512 if 128 residents all picked that up … They pay monthly 9.99 x 1028 = 1,278.72$ USD on the Mainland.

    Now everyone knows FULL WELL that no one in their right mind lives on a 512 meter parcel. SO 14.99 pays for a 1024 … 9.99 for the premium account plus 5$ for the step up. So … 14.99 x 64 = 959.36 on the Mainland.

    Now bear in mind you the Private island owner still pay 295 a month for that private island. So renting out 1024′s at Fair Market Value nets you … 664.36 PER ISLAND … And your renters don’t have to buy the land in the first place allowing you the private island owner to BEAT the mainland price EVERY TIME. Thus you can make money easilly just by setting the land for sale for one … little … Linden. Not too hard is it?

    Stop bitching and wasting Spike Lindens time and effort and go cry to someone else. Please.
16. 

    @So?
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    Shit like this always makes me LOL;

    “So? and you justify wasting this kind of money how? NO RL, NO SOCIAL LIFE, NO FAMILY, NO CEREBRAL CORTEX?”

    Some people waste their money on SL

    Others waste their money on WoW

    Still others waste their money on PS3 games, Xbox, Nintendo… Or PC games. (got quite the collection myself, of all four)

    And still others waste their money on penis enlargements (I mean literally as well as Corvettes and Hummers etc)

    And what, prey tell, do YOU waste your extra money on…?

    What is your point really?

    That the fact that some people choose SL for their entertainment and money wasting project, that they are less then everyone else? That they are losers? That they, as you put it, have no life?

    IMHO, the real losers are those that think they are somehow more then other people, and have to point that out on blogs on the internet. Anonymously. EG, you.

    And before you fling this right back at me, as I am in a way here on this blog pointing out that you are the loser, let me cut you off immediately in the only kind of language your ilk understands;

    YOU STARTED IT! I’m gonna tell mommy on you!! Poopyhead!

    NO U!
17. 

    Witness X
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    This makes the rumors that BnT Estates is circling the drain a lot easier to believe. A quick survey of his islands shows a really high percentage of unleased parcels, and that’s got to be hurting him almost as much as his tanking reputation.

    “Hai, I’m Intlibber – I own a stock exchange, and I’m the chairman of the exchange commission that regulations it, too.”

    “But trust me.”
18. 

    Cai Pirinha
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    “The setup fees for all but 2 open space properties total $4425, of which i’ve made back $0.”
    So, you are basically complaining that you decided not to sell your land to other residents to recoup all or parts of that money?

    “The monthly Tier fee collections are 99.95% funded thru rental properties and subdivided zones on these sims.”
    So, you are basically complaining that you decided to charge below costs?

    “Also included with this, should be some kind of loyalty credit to all the sim owners, so we can reward the people who have helped to keep the sims afloat at their own costs.”
    So, you are basically asking LL to give you subsidies because you are not able to make enough profit?

    “Change the way new members come into SL. All the other sites similar to SL allow for a 30 day free trial peroid, then ask for a monthly membership. They also restrict the new, free accounts to limited inventory so if they decide not to continue, their unique avatar is not clogging the system.”
    So, you basically want to limit other people’s ability to be in SL because it would be better for you, somehow?

    “Fire anyone who says LL needs more mainland at this time, esp for sale to people. Or check to see if they understand basic economics.”
    So, you basically think that somebody who can’t manage even a few virtual islands is in a great position to educate a company that make a couple of mUS$ in profit on basic economics?

    Some ponygirls should have never left their paddock
19. 

    So?
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    @-@So?

    “Total bill each month: $1090 tier each month.”

    if youdont find something REALLY wrong with this or you pay this or MORE for entertainment each month then the questions stillstand. Ill bring you some breadcrums you can munch on when your standin inthe soupline after the botttom drops out
20. 

    Jumpman Lane
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    Prokofy is right. Linden Lab is a company that makes money selling space on servers. Flippa (what?) had a good point too: wtf ya gonna do if google snaps up LL or The Lab goes belly up! Well Jumpy has a plan (and remember I told ya here first) 1. BE excitement! Boardom kills in Second Life. 2. Capture the hearts and minds of some deep pocket corporate types and share “The Vision” of Phil Linden with em: that web 3.0 will be 3D, a gui as opposed to textbased AND that the web will be a PEOPLED, persona-driven space as opposed to sterile anonymonity. 3. GET UR GRUBBY LIL PAWS on some servers (beg em, borrow em, buy em, steal em, HAVE EM GIVE EM TO YA). 4. Cosy up to some Lindens and GET THEIR SERVER CODE! Pref get 2 be their partners like the Brazilians or the Koreans. (I aint reverse engineering shit!) . One through three are already done and I got 12 linden bears (and I want em all!) KEEP SLEEPING! Hehehehehehe! One day ya gonna wake up in my world!
21. 

    Corsi Mousehold
    

    Oct 22nd, 2008
    

    @ Witness X

    HOLY CRAP OBSESS MUCH? The entire point of the article was someone was complaining cause they didn’t know how to make money and you come out and bring Intlibber in here out of no where. Dude what the hell is wrong with you?
22. 

    @So?
    

    Oct 23rd, 2008
    

    “if youdont find something REALLY wrong with this or you pay this or MORE for entertainment each month then the questions stillstand.”

    Yeah? I wonder what the average H2 costs in fuel and insurance alone to let miss “only going shopping with it” drive one to the mall. If you think a thousand dollars a month for fun spending money is all that much, you dont get out all that often do you?

    and referencing to the bottom dropping out… Gambling with your money, I find more silly to spend thousands on, wether it’s in Las Vegas or gambling with stockoptions and such. I hope the gamblers at least have learned their lessons now that they lost all that money. It’s just sad that everyone has to cover for their asses now. Even the people smart enough to at least not gamble with their money. I prefer to spend it on games etc.

    What do you care anyway what people spend their money on? That really was my point… why do you care?
23. 

    Ismell tripe
    

    Oct 23rd, 2008
    

    LOL, most new busineses fail, deal with it. However there are profits to be made in SL. “1 Sim will make me some moneys, so 1000 sims will make me BIG MONEYS!!!” is Not a business plan. Oh thats right sorry, have a plan, with realistic goals, and not “make the Lindens change their pricing structure to fit my needs” as a goal.

    Is it 2005? Are we still bitching about free accounts? From a wanabee landbarron? It is simple math, Paid account = land owner, and thats it. The free accounts let you do anything else, including bring money into SL to pay rent to a land owner. Ya lets make that go away…

    Oh and it must be 2005 since we are also talking about how SL is about to go away anytime now. LL is still making a profit in a tanked, near depression US economy. I think they will be fine.
24. 

    @no name
    

    Oct 23rd, 2008
    

    “If you think a thousand dollars a month for fun spending money is all that much, you dont get out all that often do you?”
    obviously YOU dont! how bout peeling your ass off the computer chair for the hours you justsit logged into SL? and H2s cost no more than BMWs and fillin them up no more expensive than a wholehost of vehicles. spendin money on cars or trucks(tangibles) draws no similaritys to spending money on pixeldust and lost time.

    “and referencing to the bottom dropping out… ”
    you referencing this shows you didnnt get thepoint and didnt understand what bottom that was refered to.

    ignore the pundits
    throw you money at the lindengods and there GAME
    you find so much to be SILLY becuz you is SILLY dipshit
25. 

    Ben
    

    Oct 23rd, 2008
    

    “With the release of more of the Mainland Continents, the overall value of land has dropped to a level where the comparable price of ML vs Island properties is so out of reach that most new members to the SL grid won’t be able to afford the cost of ownership of any Island properties.”
    Oh no, no more makin’ da spacebucks
26. 

    LOL
    

    Oct 23rd, 2008
    

    Just hand Linden lab a loaded gun, they are bound to shoot themself in the foot
27. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Oct 23rd, 2008
    

    Corsi, your math is abstract and therefore wrong. Few people will rent a 1024 right smack next to another 1024, even in a managed rental — but they will buy mainland in that close proximity as starter land. A cursory fly around the grid will prove this point.

    Most rental customers will take a larger lot. Meanwhile, those who buy usually start smaller with a 512 or 1024, those are indeed a good share of the Lindens’ customers, and they have every incentive to make sims where people can buy 1024s and pay them collectively at least $784 per server (1024 tier is $5 per month in tier alone, plus the $9.95 or $7.25 a month (if annualized) in subscription fee) — rarther than only $195. Again, look at the numbers: $195 from a land baron versus $784 if they sell directly.

    Add to that the ability to sell those 1024s at ridiculous auction prices like $182.50 *per lot* (L$50,000), the question isn’t “why are the Lindens competing with mainland rentals on these 20 sims in Nautilus” but “why aren’t the Lindens putting us out of business completely so they can get more money from people who will buy from them.” Well, they’re working on just that.

    A mainland rentals would cost anywhere from US $3.65 a month to $6.50 a month — still less than that $12.25 they’d have to pay to Lindens.

    But people don’t say at this level, “Wow, I think I’ll save three bucks a month!” — it’s simply not a big difference. They will spend a round $10 or $15 bucks, and persuading them that they get a deal with a $3 discount is rather difficult.

    They will simply buy from the Lindens and get more security and rights to their land.

    The claim you are making that island owners can rent out an island full of 65 1024 m2 and make a fortune — and even sell them for a dollar a meter to boot — is absolutely ridiculous. There isn’t a single island that works that way because nobody will live in a rabbit warren of that type with no privacy. The usual size is in fact 4096 if not 8192 or larger.

    A big dampener on this market is the realization, after someone has purchased their little island paradise, that they can’t resell it, not even for $1/meter.
28. 

    Sigmund Leominster
    

    Oct 23rd, 2008
    

    Well, first some kudos should go to Ponygirl for “taking it to the streets” and hassling the folks at Linden Lab with regard to her concerns about land prices and tier fees. I wouldn’t say that doing this will necessarily result in change, but I can pretty much guarantee that doing NOTHING is worse.

    Like any company, LL has a duty to three groups of people; customers, employees, and shareholders. All the talking heads here are customers; the LL folks we hassle are the employees; and there are a number of venture capital firms who are looking for some return on their investments into LL. And like any other company, balancing these obligations is what the game is all about – unless you want to add “making a profit” as what it’s all about, but I’m seeing that as a given

    There are, as folks have already said, a number of groups who pay money to LL and this income will be monitored pretty closely by the folks in the accounting department. And considering that no company can make all of the people happy all of the time, there will be times when some folks get pissed off. This situation is one example.

    The decision to release more land, driving down prices, may make sense if the extra revenue generated by the many outweighs the losses felt by the few. If LL makes $2000 from 2000 folks who toss a dollar in for cheap land, and 10 folks lose $100 each, LL have still got $1000 extra. That sucks for the 10 people but not the shareholders.

    Second Life is inherently a risky place to invest with the aim of making a huge return. Perhaps even a modest return! I certainly can’t give up the day job. The instability of the client software pales in comparison to the instability of economic enterprise. Business failure is actually the norm in both RL and SL: More folks fail than succeed. Grim, but true. In a way, being a loser just makes you normal!

    While empathizing with Ponygirl, I suggest that she is unfortunately one of the majority of people who finds that SL business is hard work and by no means a sure-thing. I also suspect there are some other folks – a minority – who will end up making a profit on the back of these business failures.

    C’est la deuxieme vie!
29. 

    IntLibber Brautigan
    

    Oct 24th, 2008
    

    Prokofy said at first, that: “There is no reason for them to raise mainland tier to $295 when mainland doesn’t have the features of the islands, and still has the ad farms problem and lack of zoning issues still to compete with (sims can be rendered useless by the presence of a club on just one parcel, for example).”

    Then goes on to contradict herself: “Mainland has way more costs and much worse occupancy. It has far more vulnerability to griefing and ad farms.”

    Prok, you simply cannot logically justify the absurd bias in tiers here. Private sim owners, having estate powers to handle most admin and customer service issues, eliminate a huge amount of costs for Linden Lab. Private sims cost the Lab very little beyond server costs (which are running them about $25 a month per sim, given four sims on a quad processor server, which most datacenters retail rent at $100 per month or less). In the instances where we need to contact concierge for something, it is truly for an issue that we cannot address ourselves. As such, private sim owners SHOULD get a lower tier rate than mainland tier rates. Private islands should be paying 195, and mainlanders should be paying 295, if you go by who is costing the Lab the most. Yet it is the reverse, and those of us in the private island business are subsidizing your mainland business. We do more of the work and we pay more of the tier and you get better access to noobs. So the authors complaints here are entirely valid and Prokofy’s are not.

    Prok goes on… “Because it meant that an end user could buy a mainland 4096 and pay tier of $25 US a month and have full control over his parcel, or pay $50 in rent to an island struggling with $295, and not have full control.”

    Sorry Prok, but this is very serious misrepresentation of the facts, but so typical of mainland landlords like yourself. The fact is that a) private sim owners have far more control than mainland sim owners, and b) residents of private sims under estate owners, paying the estate owners tier (NOT rent), have full control of their land just as they do on the mainland buying land from Linden Lab. The whole group control of land schemes you need to pull in Ravenglass simply are unneccessary in a private sim. I sell parcels to residents in my sims all the time, they have full control of them just as on the mainland. If they buy a full sims worth of land from me, either an openspace or a full sim, I can offer them even far more power than they would have as a sim owner on the mainland, because I can give them estate manager power in that sim alone, so they are able to handle 99% of the work of managing their sim.

    Now, I have seen mainland slumlords like yourself buy some private sims and continue to operate on the land group control scheme like you do on the mainland, when it is totally unnecessary in private sims. Your customers truly are renters because you refuse to let them own the land outright and pay you tier. Conversely, ours are landowners, and we operate no differently than Linden Lab does in being the allodial title holder but not the fee simple deedholder.

    Even better, we can sell land to accounts without payment info, so I do disagree with ponygirls problems with new account holders. Free account holders are a large part of private estate owners business and we at BNT Holdings welcome them to own land in our estate. Many people are perfectly capable of bringing money inworld, they just don’t trust LL with their payment info for good reason (LL’s customer db was hacked in 2006).

    Now, proks claims that LL doesnt want retail customers is clearly false. What they have done is to do a complete turnaround from last year. Last year when they ended Help Request and abandoned their free account customers, they said they did so because they projected needing to hire another 300 liasons to provide customer service by the end of 2007. Well they have clearly changed course and are seeking to compete against the estates, as they see we in the estates provide better service, better security, and because of that can earn higher tier.

    As for those children out there saying “its just a game you are throwing your money into”. Well I dont throw any money into it, and the fact is that we estate owners, who do make up 3/4 of the sims, ARE the ones who built SL, and we ARE the ones who subsidize the money-losing mainland, and subsidize mainland landlords who pay less tier than it costs Linden Lab to support them. YOU kids may be playing a game. We are not, we are running third party game services provider companies, if you want to get all technical about it.

    I have been hearing that there is talk of tiers being at 295 in the zoned sims, to reflect the much higher cost of administration LL will be taking on to service those sims. This would be proper and if LL does this, indicates that they actually do recognise these facts.

    If you doubt anything I am saying here you are free to come buy a parcel from me for 1 Linden, pay tier to the mailbox, and exercise full control of your land just as you would on the mainland. Our land listings can be found at http://www.bntholdings.com pick a parcel and IM one of our estate managers listed there.
30. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Oct 25th, 2008
    

    Intlibber is, as usual, full of shit up to his eyeballs, huffing and puffing and bluffing and kicking up dust to disguise the basic, blatant facts: people who “buy” a parcel or part of a sim or a whole sim from a private island owner do NOT have full control and remain DEPENDENT on that owner not to screw them over.

    While island fraud isn’t as prevalent as you might think from reading the Herald, it’s scary enough. And the real problem about this so-called “buying” of land is that you cannot easily resell it at will. Oh, sure, you can set it for sale, if your land baron has incorporated that feature (not all do). But you’ll have a terrible time reselling it, as anyone can tell you who is doing this now in the sea of yellow on the private island servers. Nobody wants to buy it for what you paid; even $1/m is too much. And you can’t liquidate it to land barons, because they don’t go around buying up such parcels except on the mainland.

    A sim *owner* has more control — but not a sim tenant, even if he is called “an owner” because it is deeded to his group. He can’t reset his sim, of course, and usually other features are shut off — and he can’t liquidate his land.

    I keep my private island on the same system as on the mainland because I find that it’s just a hassle — and misleading — to “sell” islands. People then want to get out — and they can’t sell their land, and then they either default, or feel screwed and misled. I want the tenants to feel secure, and it is simple more flexible for them to rent normally, without a fake upfront purchase. I can also enable them to donate mainland tier if they have it into the group but use that as a discount on the island, as it is all the same group. They get the same powers over their land as they would if they were in Dreamland — they can ban, deed media, return non-group prims, etc. So it seems pointless to add this layer of fake “ownership.”

    I fail to see how you can be a “slumlord” in Second Life. The roofs don’t leak, the toilets don’t plug up, the sinks don’t stop, there are no roaches. I rent land for the most people, and people put up their own houses, and under my rules, they look good. It’s not like it’s hoboland. My townhouses are attractive, custom-built, and good-looking. There aren’t any “slums”. Providing low-cost rentals for people isn’t being a “slumlord” but providing a service much in demand.

    The idea that the islands somehow save Linden management headaches is bullshit. Island owners are the most fussy people in SL. The Lindens are constantly getting calls from owners complaining about their sims ostensibly being stacked up too many to a server, or being paired with laggy sims, or needing to be moved to a new location, or moved away from a new location after drama and scandals.

    While they can follow scripts or reset their sims, they can’t always fix their problems of invisiprims, or if they accidently return everything, they need the island set back in time (the tools make it easy to make mistakes). With all the constant reselling of islands, and with the constant churn with transfers especially of opensource sims, island owners keep the Lindens totally hopping, and make more work for them, not less.

    I looked at my record of tickets and chats in the last year. I rarely have to contact a Linden more than once a week, and that is only briefly to ask them to reset a sim that has problems. This isn’t any “$25″ because the hours and hours of customer service are way more than that.

    I fail to see why someone with a product that has more features enabling more autonomy needs to pay less for it — it runs faster, and has more control. The customer service is very similar, or even more for islands due to all the churn and “issues”. Ask the Lindens, they will tell you this.

    Far from having “better access” to newbies, mainland can actually have a worse experience as newbies entering SL at welcome areas can be driven away by griefing and stupidity. Meanwhile, the private islands are constantly included in the Lindens’ special orientation schemes whereby new sign-ups can opt to go to a private island empire upon entry — directly, bypassing grief-filled WAs. Intlibber’s BNT has been one of these options for quite a while. I also think anyone accessing the newbie stream like Intlibber is doing should PAY for that privilege. It should be a license you purchase. It’s a legitimate activity, is a scarce resource, and should be paid for, not dished out as a favour to FIC. For Intblubber to be blubbing that he doesn’t have newbie access like the mainland does when he is on the fucking splash page for sign-ups lets us know what a phony he is.

    I run a resident-designed infohub, and I have some of my main rentals near the orientation island. This does not give me rentals. It may sell a bit of content for my tenants in malls nearby, but newbies usually don’t have money. It’s a very long term prospect, and a very small percentage of the business. But someone signing up for SL and guided into a property upon sign-up is more likely to be a customer.

    I really have to LAUGH OUT LOUD at the idea that private islands are “subsidizing” the mainland business or that mainland has “better access to noobs”. Islands get the lion’s share of business, the lion’s share of Linden attention, and earn more. Hard to imagine how this in any way “subsidizes” the business of people who work very hard on the mainland completely unrelated to islands, or who combine islands and mainland. It’s absurd. Only in the paranoid and feverish imaginings of Intlibber’s extremist libertarian extropian ideology could this be the case. Of course, he is always playing the entitlement game.

    While premium accounts have been dropping, people keep buying mainland. They buy it because they want to buy from Linden Lab, not from flakey island owners who might skip out on them, or have a lot of rules or mandatory themes. One would think with this ability to hand over “99 percent of the power” that there would be a veritable stampede to private island renting. But the whole point of this very article above bemoaning lack of business lets us know that there is a total glut of these islands on the market now, not getting absorbed by the new signups.

    LL does not want the retail customers to be *landlords*. They want enterprise, government, non-profit, education. That’s their big push now — we are not needed. They didn’t “change course,” this has been their plan all along: to make the mainland be the Linden Estate run as Anshe would run her continent or Desmond his continent with good builds, spruced up public areas, high-content rentals in themes, etc. etc. It is all very deliberate to compete with those resident businesses because they do have the customer service laid on to handle people and in fact they may find that the end user happy on his 8192 or 4096 or 512 makes less trouble for them then the cranks on the Concierge List.

    Again, I have to uproariously LAUGH OUT LOUD at the idea that private islands “subsidize” the mainland. As I mentioned, mainland sims COST MORE. DUH. Islands are only $1000. Mainland inworld or on the auction usually costs twice that. Premium mainland of the beauty of an island can be triple that. Therefore those big purchase prices are attractive to the Lindens — they can do less, and earn more.

    There are many better ways to make money with this kind of investment than being a “third party game services provider”.

    I fail to see why zoned sims need to have $295 tier on them. What more rights will they have on them? The mainland isn’t practical, with its multiple owners on one sim, to have things like sim reset, script monitoring, returning prims, etc. People will howl at the idea that some other person could decide their scripts should be returned or monitored. Nothing of that sort will be happening. The Lindens can only expect one thing from zoned land: that it will sell for more, and be more attractive, and end some of the destabilization, abandoning, and churn which makes them more work. Civilization will make less work.
31. 

    Olive
    

    Oct 25th, 2008
    

    They took unethical actions and are acting like any sociopath big business would. They want to make money and they don’t care at all what happens to those of us who built them into what they are today.
32. 

    janeforyou Barbara
    

    Oct 26th, 2008
    

    Island sales has dropped a lot, 1688 Islands in September.. but moust are “opensims”
    And we se 1037 Islands in October ( untill Oct 27).
    : October 2008 – MTD 26531 1037
    September 2008 25494 1688
    But the “normal” Island sales use to be round 1000 a mounth, now i guess “opensims” at 250 USD and a 75 USD tiers also will be “normal” if users plan to use it for there home or events.. this opensims are useless as Mall sims as thay are limited on preformance.And thats good cuz there are way to many ” MallSims” round in SL as it is and this days moust of them loose mony if thay dont got them packed 90% or more with rentors, the other problem are that ” shoppers” dont shop as thay use to, if i may give some advice i be glad to share: If you are a creator, create hight qualety items, make awsome layouts on your vendors/presentation,, its more work but will pay off in the loong run.If you are a mall owner give your rentors top service 24/7 and be flexable on space prim and rent.
33. 

    No on number 3
    

    Oct 28th, 2008
    

    I agree with most of what is being said to a point. But charging avatars is not the answer. After over 3 years and two avatar accounts, I have an inventory value (spent anyhow) of in excess of 2,500 USD. I own no land and sold off what I did have. I don’t care to participate in any virtual land hosting. However, you cannot deny the rights to access of inventory. To charge to access the purchases already made would be fraud unless Linden would provide a copy of all the items in a database format. If you pay for something in SL, you should have access to it. Not have to pay for a usage fee to access your own content. So number 3 is certainly not an option. There was no requirement to purchase or lease space on the servers for all this time. Any changes to that policy would not allow access to the purchases made. Unacceptable.
34. 

    me
    

    Oct 28th, 2008
    

    “Spike Linden: PonygirlSarah, all fee’s are based upon the cost and availability of the hardware used. For example, if we placed everything on the same hardware that was being used 2 years ago, when things were us$195, then most of the things you have now will not work. Content will not work.”

    “Spike Linden: The hardware that you use also costs us more in fee’s to our providers too, did you not think of that?”

    It’s not a good thing for the uneducated to deal with companies. It never has been. Education in the field would give better understanding as to how people in business work. But in terms of the continued “hardware” argument, I assure you that it’s simply not a good argument.

    There will be increasingly more educated working towards various paths that will bring about change. It certainly will not happen with Linden Lab it appears.

    My recommendation to those who enjoy SL is to not invest in it. If you want a sim for personal use, wait until they beg. To put up so much money upfront, to pay such outrageous monthly payments after doing so is insanity. Your better off getting an education and a few skills about yourself and be in the KNOW of how silly Lindens response to the public is. I have simply heard far too many claim they are business people in SL because they divide server space and lease it to others. It takes no skill or brain work at all to play the big shot in SL.

    3 years, two accounts, and I do not lease anything at all. And for the argument of free accounts being eliminated, I’m sorry, but unless its free it has no value at all. And the purchased made within the service entitles one to be able to access.
35. 

    LOL
    

    Oct 28th, 2008
    

    HA HA HA

    Give Linden lab a Loaded firearm and they will shoot themself in the foot EVERY TIME!
36. 

    Unpatriotic Honkey
    

    Oct 28th, 2008
    

    if you search around, you can find empty islands with full perms waiting to be taken…..who buys land and pays LL?

    ppl with more money then brains obviously
37. 

    Seraphina
    

    Oct 30th, 2008
    

    I am a SL free account newbie, but in 2 1/2 weeks I have already spent $40USD. That is more than a premium account would cost me if I even spent $10 p/mo, and the people who got that money are mostly premium account holders — that money went to SL residents, LL would only have gotten the currency conversion fees. That money was spent on virtual stuff made by SL residents, and limiting what I can hold would limit what I can spend, and thus keep me from spreading the wealth. My having a premium account would not help you or any other SL resident at all. They aren’t charging you vast amounts of real money for fake land because I don’t have a USD$72 per year account with them. You are giving them USD$12,000 (OMG!) a year, and since you are *willing* to do that, that is why they are charging you vast amounts of money. Again, OMG!!!

    This is where people need to take a REALITY CHECK. LL can get away with it because people like you pay for it, seem to find some value in their vastly over-inflated prices. Like some people will pay $200 for a Prada key ring. The mind boggles.
38. 

    me
    

    Nov 1st, 2008
    

    Nice whinning.

    Look, linden doesn’t care whether you lease your sims or not. They don’t even know who does and who does not. That is not their business. Their business is to lease the sims to you. To any fool willing to pay it. Why is it that every time people invest into something they feel as though the company is responsible to provide something that has nothing to do with the service they provide? Does it work? Is it what they said it was? Yes it is. It’s a virtual piece of land. So there you have it. Why do you think it’s Lindens job to do anything else?

    You choose to host with Linden and pay for the server to boot. Who’s responsibility do you think it is for your being gullable?

    Linden could care less if you sublease your virtual disk space or not. That was not the deal when they leased it to you. There is no commitment from Linden stating anything about what you should do with your over priced simulator. You ordered it, and they delivered it.

    Your open letter is a joke. If you don’t want the sim, there is a blue button that allows you to give it back to Linden. Then you won’t have all those fees you whine about.

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