The Alphaville Herald

435 Responses to “Interview with Anonymous, on Alphaville’s Bondage, Discipline & Sadomasochism Community”

1. 

   Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
   

   Jan 14th, 2004
   

   Ooops. I messed up that last sentence. I’ll rephrase it as a question:

   Can you present anything at all to show that the truth about morality isn’t just as immutable and unaffected by perception as the truth about the moon’s composition?

   –Phin
2. 

   Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
   

   Jan 14th, 2004
   

   Well Toy, philosophy isn’t for everyone, but the ability to sling around unfounded assertions seems pretty much universal.

   While it is easy to accuse others of twisting words, it is much more difficult to engage them in a discussion where you point out flaws in their logic. Of course, if you can do the latter, then there is no point in engaging in the former, is there?

   –Phin
3. 

   Catseye
   

   Jan 14th, 2004
   

   Whether or not imposing your will on others is immoral depends on whether you are judging correctly. This is very different than what you are asserting. You claim it is wrong to judge others. I claim it is wrong to judge others incorrectly.

   and Phin who judges if you judge correctly?

   ~smiles~ toy I am being entertained by Phin and his questioning of my beliefs and the his blurring of the lines of what I believe and what I think is moral..

   Phin I answered your questions yet you seem to ignore the answers.. I think things are wrong because I think they are wrong.. this does not make them wrong in everyones eyes but it does in mine..

   You Think God saying Murder is Wrong makes it wrong .. this is your right to think and believe so.. my question is why does God think it wrong?

   also let me address my point about the Bible and the translation of such.. the bible like any other litature has been translated into words that those reading it can understand.. Different languages use differnet words for the same thing.. here in the US we say toliet in England it is loo.. same thing different words it is the translator making the descision which is more proper due to language of the day they are translating it.. also differnet languages can not be translated directly because one statment made in French so to speak is not literal in English and I will state an example “get a life” in English doesn’t sound right in French so it is written differently to make it Proper… third Words change meanings as society grows another example “Maria is Gay” am I talking about her sexual preference or her emotional state?

   you are trying to make me seem like I do not know what I believe in but you are only proving to those reading that I do know.. I do not need a reason to believe why something is what I believe just to satisfy your curiosity…

   I can not force you to believe as I do for this would be wrong in my beliefs imposing my will on you *g* You believe Murder to be wrong because God said it was wrong.. well ok again I point the scripture says Killing is Wrong not just Killing that is deemed murder by a jury..

   Real case here Man and woman arguing Man had taken their child 4 blocks acting if he was leaving woman called 911.. cops show up man and woman still arguing man tosses his windbreaker at the woman in discust the CD case in the pocket hits her under the eye cutting her

   he was found guilty of assult because of the law’s definition of causing fear and causing injury…

   I am also stating that there is no Right or Wrong answers just answers only time will tell if they are right or wrong.. also do not setrotype people by your perception of thier actions or what they say.. we all have said things we didnt mean or believe we should not be condemned by our words… treat others as you wish to be treated.. this is a major of my beliefs one that many do not follow.. show kindness and politness to everyone.. this is common sense to me and falls back to the above as well…

   Do not judge blindly… learn why someone did it and try to look at it from their viewpoint try to understand thier reasoning do not accept blind faith as an answer..

   Phin you believe in God.. time will tell if you are right or wrong.. I believe in a surpreme being again time will tell if I am right or wrong..

   I do not believe in one faith being moral and another not.. I have seen too many things that added up making me believe this.. the Catholic priests and the altar boys.. Oral Roberts and the so much money or he will die statement.. Jimmy Swagart and his statements.. and the Bakers.. these are all christians yet they are not moral so maybe I can be like you and Dyer and state that Christians are not Moral.. if that was my belief it would be true under your arguments and proofs by showing an example here and there as to why you think so…

   Your thoughts matter for if we silence a voice then we lose a perception into ourselves.. but I will not as you sit idle and let you make a broad based statement and expect us to accept it as Gospel I will say to you as I did dyer in the other thread…

   What you call flowers I may call roses… what you call cold I may call warm (this one I will almost bet on with most reading this) it is our preceptions that make things what they are to us… Dyer has a right to think what he does but that does not give him the right to impose his thoughts on us.. all thoughts are valueable for with out difference in thought and opinion we become stagnat and cease to grow and expand..

   that sums it up in a nutshell.. I believe things are wrong because I believe them to be so I have proven this to myself and in the end the only opinion that really matters is the one I have of myself..

   There Phin you have what I believe and why… your turn
4. 

   toy
   

   Jan 14th, 2004
   

   toy indeed does a GOOD discussion of philosophy however Phin…… reating onesself over and over and over isnt discussing philosphy its more like trying to ‘beat’ one persons ideas into others with NO regard of any others thoughts..
   toy will admit You do seem more edjucated than this girl since she is meerly a farm girl but looking down on someone because of their education is rather obnoxious behaviour toy would think. So dream on in your ‘ivory tower’ this girl will get back to farm work

   falara kajira toy
5. 

   Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
   

   Jan 15th, 2004
   

   Catseye> “and Phin who judges if you judge correctly?”

   Indeed. One fallible human judging another fallible human seems a bit like the blind leading the blind, does it not? We try to limit the effect of our fallibility (or outright corruption) by setting up a rule of law and putting in place checks and balances, but even then we often end up pooching the whole thing. It seems to me that only an all-knowing, all-seeing, all-powerful Being could ever administer True Justice. It also seems to me that only such a Being could reveal to us what True Justice looks like.

   Catseye> “Phin I answered your questions yet you seem to ignore the answers.. I think things are wrong because I think they are wrong.. this does not make them wrong in everyones eyes but it does in mine..”

   But you don’t have any rationale behind your belief that something is wrong? You don’t have any philosophy behind it? No reason? You can give no evidence? You say you’ve answered my questions while once again ignoring them.

   Can you present anything at all to show that the truth about morality isn’t just as immutable and unaffected by perception as the truth about the moon’s composition?

   You keep asserting that this is the case, but can you demonstrate it? Give evidence to support it? Explain your logic behind believing it?

   Catseye> “You Think God saying Murder is Wrong makes it wrong .. this is your right to think and believe so.. my question is why does God think it wrong?”

   Well, if you are an infallible, all-knowing, all-powerful Being, you don’t “think” something is wrong, you know it; you don’t offer up an opinion, you declare what is True. As to murder, God has declared that it is wrong to murder another human because humans bear His image.

   Catseye> “also let me address my point about the Bible and the translation of such.. the bible like any other litature has been translated into words that those reading it can understand.. Different languages use differnet words for the same thing.. here in the US we say toliet in England it is loo.. same thing different words it is the translator making the descision which is more proper due to language of the day they are translating it.. also differnet languages can not be translated directly because one statment made in French so to speak is not literal in English and I will state an example “get a life” in English doesn’t sound right in French so it is written differently to make it Proper… third Words change meanings as society grows another example “Maria is Gay” am I talking about her sexual preference or her emotional state?”

   All true. Yet I can still sit down and read The Iliad and experience the story pretty much exactly as Homer intended. I can do this because Greek scholars have studied the idiosyncrasies of the language to the point that they can make very good decisions about what words will protray the intended meaning by looking at the context of what was written. And that’s even without any sort of divine intervention by an all-knowing, all-powerful Being who decides He’d like to preserve His revelation so that people understand exactly what He meant.

   Catseye> “I do not need a reason to believe why something is what I believe just to satisfy your curiosity…”

   If you don’t need reasons to believe what you believe, then why not believe the moon is made of cheese? But you’ll find others are very reluctant to accept your beliefs if you’ve got no reasons to believe what you do. You may not be able to give proof positive, but surely you can give some sort of evidence or reasons? Otherwise, your belief is completely arbitrary and random and carries no more weight than your taste in ice cream.

   Catseye> “I can not force you to believe as I do for this would be wrong in my beliefs imposing my will on you *g*”

   Lawyers get paid to convince others that what they believe about a person’s guilt or innocence is true. They don’t “force” others to believe anything, but they do provide evidence, logic, rationale, philosophy, etc. in order to demonstrate the truth of a legal position. Scientists do something similar. They don’t impose their beliefs on others, they demonstrate them. They explain why they believe what they do about the moon’s composition. They’d be laughed to scorn if they put forward some random or arbitrary proposition as truth and provided no evidence to support it.

   Which is exactly what you are doing here.

   Catseye> “I am also stating that there is no Right or Wrong answers just answers only time will tell if they are right or wrong..”

   Time may prove whether they were right or wrong, but they were still either right or wrong when they were put forward. It is illogical to assert otherwise.

   For instance, before man travelled to the moon, scientists could theorize about the moon’s composition. The more serious scientists could even show evidence to support what they believed regarding the moon’s composition. Those who made arbitrary suppositions about the moon being made of cheese and could not demonstrate any reason for believing so would be ignored. In any case, there was always a Right and Wrong regarding the moon’s composition. Time might have proven that the moon wasn’t made of cheese, but the idea that the moon was made of cheese was always Wrong. There was always a Right and a Wrong answer.

   Can you present anything at all to show that the truth about morality isn’t just as immutable and unaffected by perception as the truth about the moon’s composition?

   Catseye> “Do not judge blindly…”

   I couldn’t agree more! Blind, arbitrary, random judgements with not reasoning behind them are wrong, wrong, brimming over with wrongability!

   OK, running out of time for now and must post and run. If there is anything else in your last post that you really want me to address, just let me know.

   –Phin
6. 

   Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
   

   Jan 15th, 2004
   

   Toy, my comments were only intended to address the nature of your remarks, not you personally. I have no idea what sort of education you have, but if you have a doctorate, my point would be the same.

   It is much easier to make accusations than it is to demonstrate logical inconsistencies. Your most recent post is another example of this. If there are flaws in my thinking, please point them out instead of just performing your little drive-by snipings.

   –Phin
7. 

   Catseye
   

   Jan 15th, 2004
   

   Well, if you are an infallible, all-knowing, all-powerful Being, you don’t “think” something is wrong, you know it; you don’t offer up an opinion, you declare what is True. As to murder, God has declared that it is wrong to murder another human because humans bear His image.

   Phin and tell me where god has declared that BDSM is wrong?

   And YET AGAIN I correct you GOD has declared THOU SHALT NOT KILL not thou shalt not commit murder Oh I get it you can adjust the statement made in the Bible to fit your situation and still make it truthful.. when you Murder yes you Kill but when you KIll you do not always commit murder…
8. 

   toy
   

   Jan 15th, 2004
   

   sorry Phin…… this girl will not take part in Your constant questioning of what others think

   toy tends to just accept things and people as they are

   falara kajira toy
9. 

   Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
   

   Jan 15th, 2004
   

   Catseye> “And YET AGAIN I correct you GOD has declared THOU SHALT NOT KILL not thou shalt not commit murder Oh I get it you can adjust the statement made in the Bible to fit your situation and still make it truthful.. when you Murder yes you Kill but when you KIll you do not always commit murder…”

   And yet again I will correct you. A text without a context is a pretext. I wasn’t quoting scripture when I said that God has declared murder wrong. Taken in context, it is clear that God has not declared all killing wrong. Your own hypocrisy is showing, though. You’ve explained to me how words are not always used the same way and are now insisting that “kill” must only be understood the way you want it understood. But if you put God’s declaration into context, you will see that it is clear that God condemns murder and not all killing.

   Catseye> “Phin and tell me where god has declared that BDSM is wrong?”

   Are you really willing to submit to His declarations or are you simply looking for loopholes? If you are really interested in why BDSM is wrong, though, I’ll share my thoughts, but first, please just answer this one little question for me, or did you think that if you continued to ignore this it would just go away?

   Can you present anything at all to show that the truth about morality isn’t just as immutable and unaffected by perception as the truth about the moon’s composition?

   –Phin
10. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    And yet again I will correct you. A text without a context is a pretext. I wasn’t quoting scripture when I said that God has declared murder wrong. Taken in context, it is clear that God has not declared all killing wrong. Your own hypocrisy is showing, though. You’ve explained to me how words are not always used the same way and are now insisting that “kill” must only be understood the way you want it understood. But if you put God’s declaration into context, you will see that it is clear that God condemns murder and not all killing.

    AH Phin I quote you Well, if you are an infallible, all-knowing, all-powerful Being, you don’t “think” something is wrong, you know it; you don’t offer up an opinion, you declare what is True.

    the Commandment is Thou shalt not Kill is it not?
11. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    I’m going to assume you mean the ten commandments found in Exodus 20. (Those are not the only commandments, of course.) It also appears (from the use of Thou) that you are referring to the KJV translation (originally written in the 1400s I believe). If so, then you are correct.

    Exodus 20:13 says, “Thou shalt not kill.”

    Of course, Jesus, talking to a young man about the ten commandmants, says the following:

    18 He [the young man] saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, (Matthew 19:18)

    In addition, newer translations such as the NKJV render both the Hebrew (Exodus) and Greek (Matthew) as “murder.”

    As I said before, in the context of the rest of scripture, the commandment is clearly that we are not to commit murder.

    But I would like to ask you a question now. Perhaps you’ve heard it before.

    Can you present anything at all to show that the truth about morality isn’t just as immutable and unaffected by perception as the truth about the moon’s composition?

    –Phin
12. 

    toy
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    toy has just finished reading the last few posts, this girl doesnt mean to interrupt but toy got curious about the word ‘morality’ and the recent mentions of the bible KJV mostly….
    toy did a search for the word ‘morality’ in the bible and found the only instances of it being mentioned was refering to ‘sexual immorality’ so to toy it seems the words meaning in itself is from what people have decided, usually for themselves, so questioning anothers morality based on ones own beliefs of morality, it simply cant be explained as far as toy can see…..

    if girl is wrong in her thinking please point her mistakes and toy will gladly examine further

    jashi va toy
13. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Of course, Jesus, talking to a young man about the ten commandmants, says the following:

    18 He [the young man] saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, (Matthew 19:18)

    hmm my bible says: He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    Yes I agree that the New testament expands on the old testament but it does not replace it..
    God wrote that Thou shalt not Kill.. pretty straight foreward.. and yes God did not tell a man that he should not Kill but HE wrote it himself… the Old Testamanet is the foundation for the New testament..

    “In addition, newer translations such as the NKJV render both the Hebrew (Exodus) and Greek (Matthew) as “murder.”"

    umm didn’t you say that we still had the original works in Hewbrew and Greek? why is the newer translation different that the one written in 1400?
14. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Toy, in the KJV, the Hebrew and Greek words for what we call immorality (there are several of them, although the Hebrew hamartia is probably the most common, which is an archery term that means to fall short of the mark) are typically translated as sin, transgression, or unrighteousness. Try your search with those terms.

    –Phin
15. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Catseye> “umm didn’t you say that we still had the original works in Hewbrew and Greek? why is the newer translation different that the one written in 1400?”

    Perhaps because the English language has changed so much.

    Or perhaps because the same Hebrew word is used for both the concept of kill and the concept of murder (I’d have to do a word study to figure this out). While English has two different words for the two concepts, this won’t necessarily be the case for other languages. Perhaps the older translation opted for being very literal with the word, while the newer opted stay truer to the concept.

    In any case, when taken in context, it is clear that it is murder which is being forbidden. Different passages make it clear that self-defense is acceptable, others allow for war, and still others institute capital punishment.

    Oh, by the way:

    Can you present anything at all to show that the truth about morality isn’t just as immutable and unaffected by perception as the truth about the moon’s composition?
    

    –Phin
16. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 15th, 2004
    

    Toy> “this girl will not take part in Your constant questioning of what others think”

    You’ve been questioning what I think pretty much since I started posting here, haven’t you? Here you do it again:

    Toy> “so to toy it seems the words meaning in itself is from what people have decided, usually for themselves”

    I’ve stated that I think morality isn’t based on human perceptions and here you are questioning what I think. A bit hypocritical of you, don’t you think?

    –Phin
17. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    Phin:Or perhaps because the same Hebrew word is used for both the concept of kill and the concept of murder (I’d have to do a word study to figure this out). While English has two different words for the two concepts, this won’t necessarily be the case for other languages. Perhaps the older translation opted for being very literal with the word, while the newer opted stay truer to the concept.:

    Very well said, though it shows a problem to me… it shows man saying what God meant..

    I think it also shows that man follows God’s word as it conveinces them.. God said thou shalt not kill.. why? because man was created in the Image of God.. God said love thy Neighbor.. not hate.. man added these two together and come up with do not murder.. yes I see how they (man) came up with the change but do I think it right?

    ah yes we drop back in my opinion again don’t we.. it is my opinion God loves us all the same after all he created us.. this is not restricted to deeds.. thoughts etc. for he is also a forgiving God.. since he loves us and created us I do not see how he can approve any of his childern’s life to be ended.. not just those lives ended in an act of malice… further the bible teaches us to treat your fellow man as you want to be treated.. this makes sense to me as well and it is a concept I try to live by.. I would not want to be killed whether in Malice or not
    so to me this affirms my belief that it is still do not kill… I do not seek a loophole into God’s law by adding the idea of death with malice only being wrong..

    this is how I see the issue.. now as to how I live and how I preceive the laws of God unfortunally they are two different things… I am lacking in following the word of God and thinking as he wishes me to think.. I accept this and I will pay the price maybe when I am judged by him I also accept that I am not alone in this matter… this is why I do not go out and speak my beliefs to others for I judge myself to be no better than them so why should I impose myself on them.. but I will answer when asked..

    You asked me why is murder wrong.. I did not assume that you believed in God.. I assumed that you did not else why ask the question… I also assumed that you did not know why so yes I gave examples of when it was wrong in my eyes.. unfortunaly you deemed it necessary to question my statements instead of expanding the discussion and this I forgive you for.. you did not want to know why it was wrong.. you were merely questioning my belief.. as you are trying to goad me into another pointless session of what the moon’s composition is made of it does not matter to me what it is made of.. it is there shining it’s light 9 months of the year on me

    reason I do not judge and accept all others beliefs to be true to them? others will be judge by a higher power when it is time.. they will be judged by what is in their heart this I can not do and it is what matters in the end… I do not think spanking my mate is wrong.. I do not think spanking my child is wrong.. for both deeds are done in love not hate…
18. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    I feel I need to make a distinction between my Son and My WIfe..

    I spank my WIfe because she finds it erotic and ejoys it.. I enjoy seeing her reaction to this..

    I Spank my son when he does something wrong that can be dangerous…

    neither are done in anger… if they were then it would be wrong for it would just be beating them… back when I was growing up and learning we got spanked for doing wrong and I think the world at that time was a good place.. there were no drive bys no weapons in schools etc.. then some people stepped up and said Hey spanking your child is abuse give them a timeout instead..

    hmm yes a good idea for some not for all.. they blame all the school shootings on video games.. Dugeons and Dragons what ever we are always quick to point out what is too blame as long as it is not us… I played Dugeons and Dragons which was viewed as the Devils game back in the 80′s.. it was evil and warped the people who played it minds… hmm so I am warped from their judgement of what I did not who I am … I play TSO for the social aspect of it and yes I do judge by peoples actions not what some text says about them which is the point I have been trying to get at and show.. it is not right to judge a group of people from what you read about them.. News articles are geared to sell papers I think even Phin will agree that Julie getting straight A’s in school as a headline would not sell that many issues now would it…

    So what we read are the worse of Human traits in the papers… we See on TV the worse not the better Shock headlines as I call them… Yes case in point the articles on Oxycontin being abused even Rush Limbaugh abused it.. People killing for it etc these made the news… How many articles have you seen discussing the benefits of the long lasting pain relief? How many showing how the drug handed them back their lives to be able to live? So one can say Oxycontin is wrong since we only have one side of the story and it is the bad side..

    Phin states BDSM is wrong.. this is his right to believe so and we as people can not force him to believe otherwise this would be wrong… but he only looks at the one side which he deems bad.. the injuries that some use… the instruments that some use.. the extremes that some go to.. all based on what he has read on the subject… I would like to believe that he and Dyer came here to learn why we feel the way we do… but I fear they only come here to lay a moral assualt on our lifestyle and to point out where we are wrong according to their beliefs..

    We do it in Love of our partner we fill a need and Role that they have… thank you Maria for pointing this out to me for I have grown to assume that trait in all in the lifestyle which made me no better than Phin and Dyer assuming what they do about our lifestyle… WE do it in Honor of our partner.. we honor their choice to assume their role in the relationship by us assuming the other role… We do it in Respect of our partner.. we respect their wishes and try to meet those wishes as long as they are with in our own limits..

    Love Honor and Respect… these are not wrong ideals..

    I pointed out in one of my posts the Immoral attitudes in the Christian faith… this does not make all christians immoral however.. everyone wether they be Christian.. Jew.. Muslim.. Islamic.. Wicca.. have those amongst themselves who are immoral and will shed a bad light on that faith to the world to read by and judge by I assume we all agree on that point as well…

    Phin what do I need to prove my Morals? simple I have to have them in my heart… why do I need to prove my morals to you? I don’t for you have your own morality to deal with and I know dealing with mine is a full time job I do not need the extra work of helping you with yours..

    Do we need to Prove ourselves to others? just by actions and our attitudes to each other do we do this Phin has proven this with the talk of murder being wrong.. remember treat each other as you want to be treated and you will go far in life..

    So Phin because God saying it is wrong doesnt make it the reason why.. but it is a reason why.. Why Should we care it is because God says it is or if it reduces the society we live into chaos..or because the Goddess thinks killing is wrong.. or that Islamic faith says harming another is wrong… is it not the end result that really matters? that we believe it is wrong? Hitler did not committ murder this was not his immoral action.. Hitler Hated this was his immoral action.. Laws do not make it right or wrong it makes it legal and illegal.. it is what is in your heart when you break or follow a law that makes it right or wrong.. this is why we have trials to bring to light the reasoning and to see if they knew it was wrong..

    Also do not settle for the man behind the Pulpit to tell you what is right and what is wrong for he is a man just like you so he is no better than you can be or are… Ask the questions to learn about that which you do not know… not what you already know.. when was the last time you asked why 2+2=4?

    read watch study LEARN Listen these are fundimental tools into building your ability to decide what is right and what is wrong.. Phin’s statement about context etc.. I am assuming means do not quote someone but learn why it is what they believe I will admit it is beyond my schooling so I have no idea what it means but since he has not answered my questions I am assuming he will not answer that one either..

    Yesterday I had an online sub in the house.. I have known this person for ages and we were just chatting.. two came in… I do not ask ages unless the guests breach into what I feel could be age restricted topics.. for I feel that I can learn by what everyone says not just those over 18.. they are there a few moments then ask “do u wanna do me?” I say no for I do not know them and explain to them it is not that type of house.. they continue asking and even go as far as asking if I am a “faggot” I still do not boot for I am trying to explain my reasoning for refusing them.. then the sub speaks and they call her a deragtory name (I believe it was the one Dyer used which got him tagged) so I booted the one who used it not the other..why? because I can accept what others think of me.. for I know in my heart it is not right but I will not sit still for them to curse others in my lot in my presence..

    Case by case judgement is what is right not grouping and judging the group by the few’s actions… This is Why your statement Phin and Dyer is wrong… for you are lumping the BDSM into a neat package so you don’t have to get to know each and everyone and not get to know why they do what they do.. I think if you actually sat down and talked to one in the community here you will find that we believe in most the same things that you do but we do not judge groups we judge people..We don’t tend to make broad based comments we specify.. I know there are people on here as in real life that tkae what they think is BDSM and run with it.. these people like Phin and Dyer have not lived it have not studied it have not learned it so I do not call them part of the BDSM community.. I have seen people get the game on monday and accept the first person they meet as Master.. there is no trust here there is no Love here there is just a carnal need I tend to see these people break masters like I change underwear these are not part of the BDSM community but they use BDSM.. in order to be a part of the actual Community you must know your partner and be honest with them, set your limits and tell your partner your limits.. Maria and Toy are master and slave.. they show thier love to each other in game they show their respect to each other in game neither is brainwashed neither is afraid to speak their mind.. this is the BDSM Community… Lady J and Mikal are the same way though.. but they are not Gorean and I am the same way with my girls.. I did not claim them because I wanted mindless robots who do I as wish simply because I wish it.. I did not claim them for a power trip in game I claimed them because I saw something in each I wanted to be a part of.. their humor their minds.. their opinions basically what makes them.. them… and they accepted due to my attitude toward others and toward them Love Honor and Respect

    In closing to this novel that I sit here and type in the aftermath of my hearing for worker’s comp.. which is why I think that my posting to phin has seemed erratic to him for this was minor on my list the hearing was major for it affected my life.. I wish to thank Phin for indulging me in this pointless debate for it kept my mind from being on my hearing totaly and it also got me into the flow of the question and answer session that I had today as well a flow which I have not been in for a while this is why I continued posting to him.. Phin I almost think that you and Dyer are the same but at times I notice more intelligence in your posting than I do in his…
19. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    Catseye> “Phin:Or perhaps because the same Hebrew word is used for both the concept of kill and the concept of murder (I’d have to do a word study to figure this out). While English has two different words for the two concepts, this won’t necessarily be the case for other languages. Perhaps the older translation opted for being very literal with the word, while the newer opted stay truer to the concept.:”

    Catseye> “Very well said, though it shows a problem to me… it shows man saying what God meant..”

    That’s true, which is why it should be done with the utmost scholarship and with a sincere focus on allowing what has been written to shape your personal beliefs and not using your personal beliefs to shape what is written. This is not an easy undertaking and should not be approached lightly. But I have confidence that the Spirit of God will assist those who submit to the authority of His Word so that the humble and sincere heart will discern His Truth. As an Omnipotent Being was capable of using fallible humans in such a way that His own thoughts were accuratly written down and preserved, I believe He is also capable of ensuring that the sincere and humble reader will understand His thoughts through careful study and proper scholarship. Thus, the Truth is a Revelation dependent upon His omniscience and omnipotence and not merely on our perception.

    Catseye> “I think it also shows that man follows God’s word as it conveinces them.. God said thou shalt not kill.. why? because man was created in the Image of God.. God said love thy Neighbor.. not hate.. man added these two together and come up with do not murder.. yes I see how they (man) came up with the change but do I think it right?”

    Many men do indeed follow God’s word as it conveniences them. Others approach it with scincerity, humility, and scholarship. Careful study of the whole of Scripture will show that the understanding of Exodus 20:13 as forbidding murder and not all killing is the appropriate one. This isn’t because of some nebulous conflation of different concepts. For instance, consider this passage from Genesis.

    9:5 For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

    9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.

    This is part of God’s guidelines given to Noah (called the Noaic Covenant) for how societies should function. Later, the Mosaic Law confirms this notion of a death penalty.

    But don’t just take my word for it. If you are really interested in what God sets forth regarding the immorality of killing and murder, study it for yourself with an open mind and a sincere desire to know the truth.

    Catseye> “ah yes we drop back in my opinion again don’t we.. it is my opinion God loves us all the same after all he created us.. this is not restricted to deeds.. thoughts etc. for he is also a forgiving God.. since he loves us and created us I do not see how he can approve any of his childern’s life to be ended.. not just those lives ended in an act of malice… further the bible teaches us to treat your fellow man as you want to be treated.. this makes sense to me as well and it is a concept I try to live by.. I would not want to be killed whether in Malice or not
    so to me this affirms my belief that it is still do not kill… I do not seek a loophole into God’s law by adding the idea of death with malice only being wrong..”

    I understand where you are coming from, but I’d still encourage you to base your beliefs regarding morality on Revelation and not opinion or perception. Opinion and perception will mislead you, but an omniscient, omnipotent God will reveal truth to the sincere, humble heart. Study the Bible for yourself. Do not dismiss it simply because it was scribed by fallible man and must be read by fallible man. God is perfectly capable of getting His message across without regard to man’s fallibility. He is not trapped inside our limitations.

    Catseye> “this is how I see the issue.. now as to how I live and how I preceive the laws of God unfortunally they are two different things… I am lacking in following the word of God and thinking as he wishes me to think.. I accept this and I will pay the price maybe when I am judged by him I also accept that I am not alone in this matter… this is why I do not go out and speak my beliefs to others for I judge myself to be no better than them so why should I impose myself on them.. but I will answer when asked..”

    I think God will honor your humility. The Bible says that He gives grace to the humble, but opposes the proud. I also do not always act the way I know I should. And I also am subject to His judgement because I fall short, as do all humans. But that’s the whole reason Christ was sent to the cross. The cross was God’s judgement poured out on His own Son. I earned that judgement because I fall short. Christ did not deserve that judgement because He hit the mark. He reached God’s standard. It should have been me on the cross, but He took my place. When I place my faith in Christ, I become identified with Him so that, as he took my judgement, so I can receive His righteousness. And in His righteousness, I stand blameless and acceptable before God. That is the Good News in a nutshell.

    As to judgement, you are correct that we are not to judge others according to our own standards. On the other hand, we are to judge them according to God’s standards. But as long as you believe that all standards of morality are based on human opinion or perception, it will be difficult to see how it could ever be OK to judge another. This will be true even as you understand through intuition that judging someone like Hitler is the right thing to do.

    But again, don’t take my word for it. Seek God’s Revelation through carefully studying Scripture with a scincere heart. For instance, how might the following passage be able to shape your thinking about judging others?

    Galatians 6:1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Look to yourself, lest you too be tempted.

    Catseye> “You asked me why is murder wrong.. I did not assume that you believed in God.. I assumed that you did not else why ask the question… I also assumed that you did not know why so yes I gave examples of when it was wrong in my eyes.. unfortunaly you deemed it necessary to question my statements instead of expanding the discussion and this I forgive you for.. you did not want to know why it was wrong.. you were merely questioning my belief.. as you are trying to goad me into another pointless session of what the moon’s composition is made of it does not matter to me what it is made of.. it is there shining it’s light 9 months of the year on me”

    I apologize and I thank you for your forgiveness. Indeed, I was not asking for myself. I was trying to ascertain what you believed and why so that I’d have a better idea about what common ground could be found upon which to build a case for morality. I did not mean to deceive you. Until this post, I also had no idea that you humbly consider yourself subject to God’s judgement, which is certainly the sort of common ground I was looking to discover.

    –Phin
20. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    Phin I understand your thinking and your belief about Murder now I will see if I can get you to understand my view of the matter..

    The New Testament is a Christian only belief.. The Jews still do not think that Jesus was the Son of God they are still waiting for the savior to come… this is why I try to learn about others before judging them.. the two verses you quoted says what God requires..

    9:5 For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

    9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.

    In the 6 verse it says who sheds the blood of man.. not who murders but kills.. so yes whoever Kills a man should be killed as well.. unfortunally this ends the world for if I kill you because you killed another then I too have shed the blood of a man and should be killed as well etc etc til there is but one man left then he should kill himself.. this to me shows do not kill men back to the do unto others thing…

    Let me also try to explain my idea of percetion in a way that you also understand and I will try to keep it to the christian faith so you can have a foundation to build on..

    We both read the Bible.. We both come to the same conclusions from reading the works.. but when asked we have different reasonings behind our beliefs because God shows us his lessons in ways that we will understand these ways are different because no two people are the same.. for example Cold.. you may think 0 is cold and bundle up for it.. where living where I do 0 is shorts sunglasses and sunscreen weather because I think -40 is cold.. preceptions… God does not lump people into a group to judge them.. he judges each and every one of us by our hearts..

    Change your statement about BDSM to “Some who pratice it are Immoral” and you wont get an argument this is the point we are trying to make… Look outside your box, learn other ways than what you were taught as a child.. look for the good in man for it is easy to find something to call evil… Teach by your actions and deeds not by words.. Mother Teresa was not on the pulpit saying she was better than anyone else she was in the field helping people.. in fact Jesus’s words did not sway the people who heard him.. they saw his actions and that swayed them.. Dyerbrook’s post where he resorted to calling another the profane name.. shows him to my eyes to be Self-Righteous and hypocriticial that he knows the words but he does not understand them do you disagree with me on this?
21. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    9:5 For your lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning; of every beast I will require it and of man; of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

    9:6 Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for God made man in his own image.

    Catseye> “In the 6 verse it says who sheds the blood of man.. not who murders but kills.. so yes whoever Kills a man should be killed as well.. unfortunally this ends the world for if I kill you because you killed another then I too have shed the blood of a man and should be killed as well etc etc til there is but one man left then he should kill himself.. this to me shows do not kill men back to the do unto others thing…”

    I will be honest with you. This does not look to me like an argument based on reason. It certainly appears like you are taking the verse to an absurd conclusion so that you may then ignore it. Is God really so thoughtless that He would tell Noah, “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed,” and intend it to mean that each man who carries out this command should then be killed in turn? He must have missed the consequences for the human race, but it is a good thing you spotted it so that you can save us all from His ignorance? That’s absurd. It appears much more likely to me that you are simply not comfortable accepting what is said and so decide to rationalize the passage to mean something so ridiculous that you may then safely ignore it. To me, this is a perfect example of trying to mold and shape Scripture to fit into your own opinion instead of letting your opinions be shaped by Scripture. You can do that, but you must realize how faulty human perceptions and opinions can be. If you do not sincerely seek God’s Revelation, what chance do you have of finding Truth?

    –Phin
22. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    No Phin it strengthens my belief that Killing man is wrong I do not look for hidden meaning I accept that killing is wrong…

    You can do that, but you must realize how faulty human perceptions and opinions can be. If you do not sincerely seek God’s Revelation, what chance do you have of finding Truth?… exactly the point I am trying to get you to see this statement from you makes me think you mean that without knowing god you can not find the truth and I am assuming you mean the Christian God.. I cringe when I hear “have you accepted Jesus christ as your savior” why assume I am christian… I assume you as intelligent as you seem to be… agree that beliving in other religions does not condemn you to the enternal fire? for it is your heart that is judged not your mind
23. 

    toy
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    toy will no llonger post in this thread…… the last time she did she made a few comments on something she found…. DID NOT ask any questions. just stated what she thinks and since this girl is apparently incapable of thinking at Your level Phin….. as You enjoy to point out….. she will post where what others think do matter so enjoy.. catseye, none of this tirade was addressed to You

    kari braksa toy
24. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    ~looks at toy then back to Phin~

    This is the problem.. Phin not listening and critising others before learning them.. I hope toy does continue posting here.. for all opinions are needed not just Phins and Mine,,

    Treat others as you would want to be treated..
25. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 16th, 2004
    

    Toy> “since this girl is apparently incapable of thinking at Your level Phin….. as You enjoy to point out….. she will post where what others think do matter so enjoy..”

    Oh please. Knock off the martyr act. I said you were hypocritical, not dumb.

    –Phin
26. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 17th, 2004
    

    Phin question and this one please answer for I really want to know your thoughts on this..

    Which sounds more in the context that God wants..

    Thou shalt not Kill… or

    Thou shalt not Kill only when done with malice

    As for your statement to toy about the martyr act.. that was also uncalled for.. she approached this with serious intention of joining us.. your reply to her was rude and uncalled for she asked if she was wrong to be pointed out why so she could study further,, remember Phin they will know we are christians by our love…

    Toy: so questioning anothers morality based on ones own beliefs of morality, it simply cant be explained as far as toy can see…..:

    explained yes toy not proven.. we are all human.. we are no better than our brother or sister… so how can we judge others actions based on our beliefs? we can but it doesnt make us right… History is filled with judgements against others based on our beliefs.. history has also shown that doing so 90% of the time was wrong to do let me set examples toy… The pilgrams left England for they were not allowed to pratice what they thought to be correct… later White men enslaved the blacks which they thought correct to do… Americans then fought the Native Americans because our beliefs were different.. we later moved the remaining Native Americans to reservations so we could have their lands this was wrong as well.. but based on our beliefs… we delagated that the blacks could not use the same things the whites could based on our beliefs… Hitler passed his law on killing jews because of his beliefs of them.. the Salem witch trials were all done based on their beliefs… Osama attacked the WTC based on his beliefs… In each and every one of the examples we judged based on our own idea of morality… simply put we judged others to be right or wrong and we imposed our ideals on them and we were wrong to do so…

    History is a learning lesson.. but we only learn if we do not repeat our errors.. How is Dyerbrooks statement of the BDSM being moved to their own server.. any more right than Us saying that the Native Americans being moved to reservations… if I was to say that All Islamics should be deported from the US and sent to the middle east would Phin and Dyer agree? I doubt it in fact I hope not for I am judging a class of people by their beliefs… just like Dyer is judging BDSM by his beliefs… so toy yes we can judge based on our belief of right and wrong but that does not make it right to do so…
27. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 17th, 2004
    

    Catseye, Toy accused me directly of enjoying pointing out that she cannot think at my level. I have never attempted to point out such a thing, nor do I believe it to be true. As you mention, she requested to have faults in her logic pointed out. I did point out what I thought were faults in her logic (actually, I pointed out that assertions are easy to make, but not convincing) and for this I’m accused of calling her dumb?

    I said that philosophy is not for everyone, and it isn’t. But that isn’t because people are not smart enough to engage in it. Rather, some people are not willing enough to be open to having their beliefs challenged. They want to believe what they want to believe and will not allow reason to threaten it. Instead, they will snipe, us ad hominem attacks, play the martyr, or whatever else they can think of to avoid having to confront a challenge to their beliefs.

    –Phin
28. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Jan 17th, 2004
    

    Catseye> “we are all human.. we are no better than our brother or sister… so how can we judge others actions based on our beliefs?”

    You know, I believe you are exactly right in this. But I think the bigger questions are these:

    Why assume that our beliefs are the only standard by which others can be judged? Why categorically rule out the possibility that others can be judged fairly and rightly, not by our beliefs, but by God’s standard as Revealed to us? Why assume that morality cannot be based on God’s standard instead of our own opinions or perceptions?

    So yes, we should not judge others based on our own opinions or perceptions. But we have a responsibility to judge them based on God’s revelation. That’s why we have a responsibility to stand up to immorality like Hitler’s.

    –Phin
29. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 17th, 2004
    

    Why assume that our beliefs are the only standard by which others can be judged?

    because Phin you can only judge by using what you know as a guideline… i.e. comparing your beliefs to anothers beliefs after all is this not how all judgements for humans are done?

    Why categorically rule out the possibility that others can be judged fairly and rightly, not by our beliefs, but by God’s standard as Revealed to us?

    Phin I rule it out from viewing history’s lessons only God can judge us by his standards we are not God.. we are human we do not have the wisdom to make these judgements on others we only have our narrow preceptions on what we assume God means.. only he can judge fairly and justly… and he will do so not what is in our minds but what is in our hearts

    Why assume that morality cannot be based on God’s standard instead of our own opinions or perceptions?

    because we form our own opinion of God’s standard and use those preceptions in our lives Phin.. I point to our preception of the commandment about Killing.. you preceive it to mean only in Malice… I deem it to mean all Killing malice or not…

    Morality is based on what we feel is Moral i.e. right or wrong.. we are a self centered race.. We think of ourselves before we think of others.. we tend to think ourselves of not being wrong.. blaming others instead of where the true fault lies..

    we as Human’s fail to recogonize that our beliefs may not be the right ones.. we do not like ourselves being questioned or what we think we believe to be firm.. we must open our minds to learn and to strengthen ourselves.. we must address all aspects of the questions we receive not just the ones we feel we can answer correctly.. this is why I welcome any that are sent my way and I am not afraid to say I do not know.. this my friends is how we become better people and make this world a better place..

    Do unto others is a two way street and it is a great way of life..

    Phin and thank you I think you are actually starting to listen instead of assuming
    or thinking I am attacking you
30. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 17th, 2004
    

    If we are going to speak of the judgement of God, let’s look at it realistically. We know that God is to us, what we are to lesser animals. We can no more understand God’s position on BDSM or many other things than our dog understands why we leave in the morning and come back again at night, or what we do during that time. I think in the end that God cares very little about some of our petty issues.. and cares a great deal about others we have not even considered.

    To illustrate.. we are not only faulted and flawed as human beings, we are flawed as a species. We are species-centric. Look at the big picture, do you think we will not be judged for our treatment of other creatures on this planet? My charity money goes to the SPCA and wildlife preservation groups.

    So, we cannot know God’s mind. We try, we can’t help it, another flaw of the species. And another flaw… we are not humble enough to realize and accept this, and many presume to tell us the mind and will of God.

    Okay, that is all I will say on the religious aspect, but morality as defined by God did come up as an argument here.
31. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 17th, 2004
    

    Very Well Spoken Jady J.. yes I hadnt even delved into that aspect of right and wrong on other creatures … though again I feel that we will be judged by whomever does the judgment on what is in our hearts not what is in our minds … for like you said we are just like that compared to God or the Surpreme Being or what ever way you wish to say it
32. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    Hmm seems we lost Phin from the discussion… too bad
33. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    Sorry if I scared him off Catseye. In future I will ask if you are done with the victim, er, person, lol. And I will leave my whip at home.
34. 

    Catseye
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    Actually Lady J… I just feel that he was starting to actually see where I was coming from maybe he just left to study more then return only time will tell… but I vaule his statements more than Dyerbrooks for Phin showed himself to actually be open to listening where the other is still closed minded living in his false little utopia that is his mind
35. 

    Raven
    

    Feb 16th, 2004
    

    Dyerbrook wrote at December 23, 2003 11:35 AM:

    I’ve counted four Sims in Alphaville already — I keep finding new cases — who were never into the BDSM lifestyle before, even played the Sims for months, who were friends of mine or other Sims, and now, they are suddenly into the lifestyle, sporting its regalia and insignia….

    … I don’t intend to be pushed out of AV by intolerant thugs who want to create a closed society….

    What I’d like to know is how Dyerbrook thinks this happened.

    Did someone point a gun, through the Internet and the PC screens, at the Sims players’ heads, and force them to make their characters don these “regalia and insignia”?

    Or did the players freely choose to do so?

    If by force, were the players kept continuously online and at gunpoint thereafter, or did they get to sign off occasionally to do thinks like go to school or work?

    If they got to sign off, then how were they forced to sign on again later, to resume this awful shameful degrading condition?

    Couldn’t they make these characters discard the “regalia and insignia” and go back to a non-BDSM lifestyle?

    If not, couldn’t they have simply abandoned the characters who were being so horribly abused?

    In other words, exactly how is this “involuntary” recruitment supposed to have been accomplished?

    On the other hand, if they joined freely and of their own will, why is Dyerbrook now determined to expel from Alphaville the same people he referred to as having been “friends” of his?

    Doesn’t he respect their free will to live their lives as they choose? Or does he require that they must live as he wishes, in order to be allowed to stay in Alphaville?

    If the latter, then who really is being “pushed out of AV”, and who really is behaving like “intolerant thugs who want to create a closed society”?

    And as for Dyerbrook’s posturing as a well-intentioned Christian determined to rid Alphavile of foul disgusting influences….

    brigit wrote at January 1, 2004 06:44 AM:

    i couldn’t sleep last night and went into sims……saw a BDSM house open…had two people in it…so thought i would drop by…..OMG…two women who lived there and right in front of me landed……………dyerbrook………..*claps hands to her cheeks making the O shape with her mouth*….

    and he said…..You Bitch…..this is one of those BDSM houses…..

    now when he said that…i tagged him…it made me mad….the other woman said…omg who was that… now who is harrassing whom…..and after i tagged him…he ran away….and then the well spoken dyerbrook IM’ed me…..and said

    You Sick Little F_ _ k……

    so now who is the low life…..who is the one who has their mouth in the gutter….
    

    Dyerbrook wrote at January 1, 2004 08:20 PM:

    Yes, let me say it again for good measure, so you don’t have to bother fetching screenshots.
    YOU SICK LITTLE F##K.

    [Obscenity obscured by ##. —Raven]

    Darksoul wrote at January 1, 2004 03:35 PM:

    Oh my….dyerbrook has gay, naked sims on his site….how decadent for a man of god

    http://syminalist.tripod.com/academy/id7.html
    

    … and at January 1, 2004 03:40 PM:

    and some more http://members.tripod.com/dyerbrook/gayfrats.htm

    Are W/we learning anything about the little man?
    

    toy wrote at January 1, 2004 07:13 PM:

    or perhaps these gems

    http://dyerbrook.tripod.com/simgems/id9.html

    http://members.tripod.com/dyerbrook/roadtosedation.htm
    

    Dyerbrook wrote at January 1, 2004 09:26 PM:

    Yes, I have several Sim story sites, and indeed, one could be characterized as “pornographic”…. But what’s the difference between MY “porn” site, that is, a site with some adult stories and screenshots, and Lady Julianna’s, and why is it NOT a legitimate subject of conversation for TSO?

    Well, gee, Lady Julianna had already written at December 27, 2003 09:31 PM:

    I am sure Maxis is aware of my website and finds it not objectionable. There is no pornography on it, no profanity, no nudity. There is creative writing there, and general info on BDSM. None of this violates TOS.

    And Dyerbrook still doesn’t know the difference?

    Well. Let’s take it from that rhetorical question that he sees no difference. So he’s “no different” from the people he denounces as unfit to grace the virtual pavement of Alphaville. But then why does he stay, himself? And if he stays, what standing does he have to demand that others leave?

    So much for his purity of motive.

    And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye. (Matthew 7:3-5, cf. Luke 6:41-42)

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