Discussion with Ted Castronova: can Alphaville be Liberated from EA?
by Alphaville Herald on 04/01/04 at 7:05 pm
A lot of people I talk to think that EA/Maxis is going to pull the plug on TSO – indeed that EA was going to do it *before* the S hit the fan and now they may have to cut it loose sooner before the *really* nasty stuff hits the press. So here is a question: Can Alphaville be saved if/when Maxis pulls the plug? That is, would it be economically feasible for the users of Alphaville to take the server off the hands of EA/Maxis? EA could wipe all refs to EA and the Sims and just sell us the server and let us use the software (allowing us to modify as we wish) for some royalty to be specified. This would unburden EA of a millstone and free up the users of Alpha (possibly other cities to administer the place as they see fit). Of course the big question is how much it would cost to maintain the server and maintain and uprade the software as necessary. In this interview, I put these questions to the Economist Ted Castronova, best known for his seminal study on the economy of EverQuest.
Castronova: As for liberating a server: in an academic context, with low wages, you could probably run an EverQuest type server for $100,000 a year. But I am guessing that that includes a lot of customer service, which presumably a self-run server would not have. (The customers are the owners; player politics handles everything.) Straight-up cost for the server, box and basic software: I am guessing several tens of thousands of dollars.
But the game software – that’s the rub. There have been no sales on this market in history – so nobody knows what it would take for Maxis to find it worthwhile to unload its software. However, I am not sure they would do it at any price. The Sims offline franchise is too lucrative for them to want to release the online version to other hands and risk brand-changing innovations that they would not want.
Urizenus: It seems to me that protecting Sims offline is precisely the reason they have to cut loose TSO. The things being reported so far in the AVH are just the tip of the iceberg, and one wonders when church groups etc will get wind of this and whether they will be able to distinguish Sims offline from TSO. TSO could undermine their entire brand. That much suggests that EA will have to pull the plug sooner rather than later. So the first question is whether this makes sense — that they may want to pull the plug to protect the brand.
Now, rather than pull the plug, they could release the TSO software (wiped of all Sims branding) and allow the users to pursue to open source modifications on it so long as EA/Maxis retains the rights to incorporate whatever modifications they like back into The Sims. They could even charge some fee for use of the core TSO engine. In effect, there would be a generic engine, wiped of Sims branding, that would serve as a zero-expense research laboratory for Maxis. So the second question is whether *this* makes sense.
Castronova: You’re making a good point. Anyone who runs a virtual world has to accept that some of the broad outlines of culture and behavior are out of their control. If the decisions of the players begin to reflect badly on any part of the owning company’s reputation, and if the reputation has an effect on revenue, then the company may well feel the need to close down the virtual world to limit its losses. The alternative I mentioned before – release the world with the original skins – would not be a good idea in this case. But yes, they could require a re-skinning – holding on to a property right on the original skins and objects and so on – as a condition for selling the world. I still think they are most likely just to close the world down, should anything get this far.
Another option [for EA] would be to try to change the problematic behaviors of the players. Players do respond to incentives, so that might actually be one of the lower-cost options.
Perhaps the players’ best hope is not the market, but the courts: if people can claim substantial losses if TSO closes down – using that Chinese court case as precedent – then maybe Maxis/EA would come around to the idea that they could cut their losses best by selling out.
Dyerbrook
Jan 4th, 2004
My own belief is that Maxis/EA has created a monster, and they should throw the code up on the Internet as shareware, and auction off the server and membership lists. Then players would be free to create a number of online worlds, and players would be free to pick their niches, and as in any place where there is a free market of ideas, goods, and services, there would be some hope in hell that good would drive out bad, and if it didn’t, well, at least the customer would be right. Custom content, as in the offline Sims community, would then be admitted into the game and vastly improve its landscape.
We don’t see any signs that the company is ready to pull the plug, however, rather than this overheated blog (could we have some better sources on this claim, please).
But let’s take a look at the obvious: “Another option [for EA] would be to try to change the problematic behaviors of the players.”
Yes, create a server for adults over 21, and provide incentives for people to move to it (special objects, $100,000 simoleon stake, whatever). Or use the threat of punishment, banning from the game. They could also get into the business of selling simoleon packets, instead of leaving it to ebay, and thereby gut out the bot market.
And as we’ve all noted before, Maxis could free up the Stratics board so that people can freely criticize and discuss negative behavior and take collective action against it, without being slammed by charges of TOS violations.
JC Soprano
Jan 4th, 2004
Ya I agree on the adult server. EA won’t ever allow it though. Check out this article I was in done by Adult Video News.. Yes, the porn awards people lol. The website itself is adult, however the link contains no adult material.. other than what’s in the game and discussed about. The topic of an adult server comes up.
http://www.avnonline.com/issues/200308/features/feat_0803_006.shtml
JC Soprano
http://www.thesimmafia.com
RB
Jan 4th, 2004
You yanks are backwards. lol. the Adult server would be 18+ not 21+ . It’s bad enough you still use the imperial system, but you do like to be different to the rest of the world =P
And yeah sadly EA will never do such a thing.
- RB
Dyerbrook
Jan 4th, 2004
Yanks are merely Europeans who fled your genocides and wars. : ) Get a grip. And it could be 18, not 21, but to fit all states, it would likely be 21. And it is BDSM, not Maxis, that sets the bar at 21 on their lots, Yanks or not.
RB
Jan 4th, 2004
I am not American OR European. Not asian either. =)
Well EA & Maxis are american companies, so you shall see all american systems of rule used in TSO =)
- RB
Link
Jan 4th, 2004
Even though I agree with the whole Adult server issue, Maxis/EA will never do this. It will bring extra cost to them and the whole effort to get all the adults to move to that server will be stressful and plenty.
toy
Jan 5th, 2004
there are some instances of privately owned shards (servers) for Ultima Online and have been up and running a very long time… As most know UO is probably the largest online game that has ever existed and there seems to be no proprietary conflicts with it… this is a link to one of the largest server software sites for private UO servers. So in this girls mind it could happen with TSO if a larg enough server could be found available
http://www.sphereserver.net/
TrickSh0t
Jan 5th, 2004
“As most know UO is probably the largest online game that has ever existed …” — toy
Negatory.
Lineage is the largest online game ever. Its a Korean based MMORPG, and its numbers are in the couple hundred thousands.
Back on topic, I’m utterly facinated that there isn’t already an adult’s only gateway … however, here’s a pressing question; how does one enforce or verify adulthood over the internet? Credit Cards? I think not.
I await responses.
toy
Jan 5th, 2004
toy will stand corrected.. this girl was commenting mainly on the already available ‘private servers’ for UO and this girl was going by her knowledge of UO having world wide servers….
have to agree that it is impossible to make certain that certain it would be only adults…
remains interested in the postings here and wishes to learn more
toy
snoopy
Jan 5th, 2004
Sweet dreams are made of these
urizenus
Jan 5th, 2004
Wow, there are liberated UO servers? If that is true then this seems completely possible.
EA could either sell the Alphaville server or let us port everything over to some academic server. But why wouldn’t they just sell us the server? Let me know if I’m suggesting things that are technically implausible here.
There will of course remain the issue of age verification, which I don’t have an answer to.
TrickSh0t
Jan 5th, 2004
I didn’t mean to jump on you Toy. I’m sorry if I came across as an ass.
Short of biometrics, I think its impossible to do any sort of age verification for online games. I remember some of the Adult theme games from the 80′s (i.e. Leisure Suit Larry) that would ask a series of questions which it was assumed only adults would know the answers to each time it loaded. For example, “Mr. Ed was a: A> Horse B> Talk Show Host C> Baseball Great D> None of the above”. I also remember that is wasn’t at all effective (besides being laughably easy).
I mean, Pr0n sites have been looking for ways to weed out minors for years and they haven’t been successful either.
TrickSh0t
Jan 5th, 2004
Ooops. Forgot to address Urizenus’ question about the sale of the Alphaville server.
Here’s something that needs to be realized. Ultima Online, while popular, isn’t even remotely as visible as the Sims franchise. The Sims is a huge money maker for Maxis/EA and has greatly penetrated the PC game market, crossing demographic boundaries like an out of control Mack truck. I doubt they would be at all interested in surrendering even a shell of their intellectual property for fear that it might find itself competing or confused with the Sims “proper”.
Also, purchasing the actual server hardware is not required. It’d probably be cheaper (or more expensive) to set up your own. If you’re talking about the server software, then its feasible, but unlikely.
CherryBomb
Jan 5th, 2004
I don’t see EA getting enough by selling off the game to be worth the hassle. I don’t think the’re at much risk legally either, if they decide to shut down, but if they were worried about it, they could just stop selling new subscriptions and let attrition do the dirty work. Or just stop updating the game.
I don’t think they’re ready to give up yet, but they can’t be too optimistic at this point. Usage was up a little over the holidays, but over-all it’s been dropping slowly but steadily since February.
urizenus
Jan 5th, 2004
CherryBomb, do you have a pointer for data on subscription rates and usage? (I assume subscriptions have never broken 100K, or we would have heard about it).
I guess EA could let TSO attrit itself do death, but I would think they would be reluctant to let a product so closely identified with flagship product like offline sims become total crap.
I guess these are the options:
1) Reinvest in TSO and try to fix it. Down side is that there is no evidence that they *can* fix it or that they would ever get the required ROI.
2) Continue on current path of neglect, milking what revenue they can from it, hoping that they can keep a lid on events happening in the game and that the poor quality of product will not undermine the offline franchise. Down side is that this may be too much to hope for.
3) Pull the plug. Saves the Sims franchise but runs the risk of lawsuits from subscribers. Perhaps the subscribers could be bought out?
4) Stop all investment and allow no new subscribers. Let the game attrit to nothing, avoiding the potential lawsuits in (3). Down side, as discussed above, this entails having a dog product associated with the lucrative Sims franchise. The danger is that it could damage the franchise reputation. The other danger is that customers may hang on anyway, and with even less supervision than now who knows what would transpire in the game.
5) Let subscribers take TSO private after unbranding and reskinning the game. I don’t think they could *sell* the engine, but they would get a problem child off their hands (and the attendant legal liability problems — which, if figured into the Maxis financials would make Maxis look much less healthy than it probably now looks on paper). I’m not sure what the down side to this would be, unless there are customers who only play so they can see EA and Maxis logos when they log in and insist on seeing them.
It sounds to me like it would not be much of a problem to port the game to an academic server. I guess the technical obstacle would turn on the degree to which the game had to be reskinned.
CherryBomb
Jan 5th, 2004
Yeah, I just count the visitor hours (I have some help). Maxis says I am crazy, and there is no way to factor in players who don’t show up as visitors, but there is if you’re comfortable with statistical sampling and keep track of the rule changes. I’m pretty confident of being within 30% or so for the total online hours as an absolute number, and even more confident of month-over-month trends.
RB
Jan 5th, 2004
Hey i’ll quit TSO for a reasonable lump sum. =D lol. Where do i go to get paid? heh.
- RB
Urizenus
Jan 5th, 2004
Hmmm, you would do *anything* for a reasonable lump some RB, lol. But I’m wondering if it would even be possible to buy out some users. Take the guy who just bought MightyD’s avatar for $355 on ebay. What will it cost to buy *him* out?
RB
Jan 5th, 2004
No i said to leave TSO =P not for *anything* . lol. I’ll take $5000 US. no less. gotta cover future income. heh.
- RB
Dyerbrook
Jan 5th, 2004
Re: “EA could either sell the Alphaville server or let us…” Us? What do you mean “we,” white man? You’re planning on taking over with your little clique of friends? OMDB.
This notion of players launching lawsuits must be more claptrap from these Michigan lawyers. Somebody is going to file a lawsuit for damages over the loss of a $10/month game? Huh??? And what court in the land, even a small claims court, is really going to care about that? Over items valued at most on ebay at $150? Only a large group like the SSG would have the numbers and the energy and resources to sue, but the SSG doesn’t care about Alphaville, they’ve already gone to other games that are more fun. And if the BDSM crowd sued, I can just imagine the media hayday.
Don’t be so sure Maxis will pull the plug on TSO. Where are your sources on this? After all, they have Sims2 coming out soon, and they’ll make boatloads of money on that, and maybe they’ll even eventually have a Sims2 online in 3-D. It’s not over til it’s over.
RB
Jan 6th, 2004
3D Sims is shit. Sims will always need to stay in the current 2d’n'a half isometric viewpoint. I don’t like 3D sims, it looks bad and ruins the feel and look of the game.
- RB
Maria LaVeaux
Jan 6th, 2004
Dyer Illustrates for us one reason why the idea of an adult server will not work. the whole idea of establishing one would be to allow adult behaviour outside the view of Minors. But once the segragationist attitudes begin dictating play then soon you will have demands for a whites only server, a Christians only server, a Womens only server, Et Cetera,,,,
Dyer,, the solution to your problem is a simple one, If and when an adults only server is established,, YOU stay with the Kiddies where your tender sensibilities won’t be offended.
As for Maxis shutting down TSO,,I have seen only rumours, and reports of rumors, All completely without foundation. I think i will wait and see the announcement from Maxis rather than joining chicken little in his cries of “The Sky Is Falling!!”.
To me at least,, it seems the population of AV has grown. If there are one or two servers that are shrinking beyond supportable levels, it is more likely that Maxis will Excise a part to save the whole. Even in business, Half a Loaf is better than None.
urizenus
Jan 6th, 2004
Just noticed that on the TSO box it says they can shut down the game with 90 days notice if they want. I’m not sure if that is enough CYA to protect them from lawsuits if they *do* shut down, but maybe.
I have to say I still like the debrand and reskin solution.
Maria and Dyerbrook, I should open a separate topic to discuss the idea of an adults-only server. Can you guys wait? I’d like to keep that issue out of this thread.
Urizenus
Jan 6th, 2004
You don’t have to wait. See the new topic on an adults only server for alpha.
Mr.Mystic
Jan 8th, 2004
I am not sure about TSO going out, But I do know most places have stopped carrying the online time cards, and when I called they said they won’t be getting anymore in, another person in the game said this same thing when trying to find time cards, also on Sims Stratics someone posted how the Maxis website didn’t have TSO on their pull down menu of games what it might mean, the post was deleted..
Urizenus
Jan 9th, 2004
Yikes! That doesn’t sound encouraging.
Eeyore
Jan 9th, 2004
I had an idea for the “adults only” server.. it needs some tweaking to get the details, but AOL has a great way of running adult/childrens accounts. Prove it with a phone bill and copy of an id. Parents set up the account and set the parental controls. That shouldnt be hard. If more parents paid attention.. maybe there would be less children on our game!! They should have a warning on the box.. a BIG ONE.
James
Jan 11th, 2004
EA could sell or rent out the rights to the servers to outside companies, allowing them to run the game and collect subscription revenue. It’s already been done with games like Redmoon. And the underage issue will always be a problem. It’s still a problem in RL, when kids can go to the corner store and buy cigarettes or can sneak into bars because they look old enough. Perhaps though there’s a way to only accept personal credit cards and not business or corporate cards? That way the kids would have to get their parents to pay, and it would put the responsibility in the parents hands. Wouldn’t eliminate the problem, but it would at least makes things harder for the kids.
Dyerbrook
Jan 12th, 2004
As has been said, Paypal requires a bank account with a checking number for verification, you have be 18 to open a checking account.
BTW, when I asked the mods why they locked a discussion of BDSM that they said was getting too “raunchy,” and yet they allow it within the game (a real contradiction), and I raised the issue of the adult server, I was steered to a discussion of an adult city/server on the Stratics board. It was more active in November then got buried. Go and look under City Hall, it does now have posts in December and January.
toy
Jan 12th, 2004
hmmmmm……
“As has been said, Paypal requires a bank account with a checking number for verification, you have be 18 to open a checking account.”
Dyerbrook do you actually know what is involved in getting a ‘varified’ paypal acct?
toy has had her own checking acct. since she was 15.. yes, girls father opened it for her but it has always been in this girls name and has always been her responisibility to take care of it…. sooooooo toy has always had her acct. number and access to her acct….. for a paypal verification they ask for the acct number and then paypal makes 2 small deposits into that acct. the verification is actvated when paypal recieves back the amounts and dates of the deposits and since toy handles her own acct and always has she simply returns to paypal the information they ask for verification. So much for that being a safe way to get age verification
falara kajira toy
Dyerbrook
Jan 12th, 2004
Toy, you just explained why this worked for you — your father is the guarantor on the account. Duh, yes, I’ve gotten verified Paypal accounts. You need a valid bank account, which is obtained by a person who is 18 or over. If someone 18 or over signs for a minor, they still exist, duh, and they discharge their responsibility to that minor, but they are accountable. It’s not every parent who would open up a bank account for a teen, especially if they know they’ll use it to play a game involving hook-ups with RL people who use whips and chains.
toy
Jan 12th, 2004
toy would inform Yopu Dyerbrook that her acct was never used for such things,as You so readily ‘assume’…. toy was meerly pointing out that paypal will NOT gaurantee that all people in TSO would only be adults… toy is pleased though that You have overcame Your revulsiion of this girl to send a answer to her post
toy would advise You that in the future that You use derogatory comments when addressing her 
It’s ill becoming of a ‘saviour’
falara kajira toy
toy
Jan 12th, 2004
grrrrrr. toy isnt used to this hotel computer. many typos
correction:
It’s ill becoming of a ‘saviour’
“toy would advise You that in the future that You use derogatory comments when addressing her
”
“do not use”
as far as the refence to “whips and chains” by You, please give kids some credit… they arent all so gullible as to accept everything they are told or all that they hear, they are also capable of knowing what is good for them and what isnt…… covering their ears and putting blindfolds on them DOES NOT make what You fear they will hear or see go away and will only make them more curious of what You try to hide.
So basically this whole thread is immaterial…. simply stated this whole idea will not happen and constantly discussing it does nothing
falara kajira toy
toy
Jan 12th, 2004
grrrrrr. toy isnt used to this hotel computer. many typos
correction:
It’s ill becoming of a ‘saviour’
“toy would advise You that in the future that You use derogatory comments when addressing her
”
“do not use”
as far as the refence to “whips and chains” by You, please give kids some credit… they arent all so gullible as to accept everything they are told or all that they hear, they are also capable of knowing what is good for them and what isnt…… covering their ears and putting blindfolds on them DOES NOT make what You fear they will hear or see go away and will only make them more curious of what You try to hide.
So basically this whole thread is immaterial…. simply stated this whole idea will not happen and constantly discussing it does nothing
falara kajira toy
Kerith
Jan 17th, 2004
Just a little addition to the non-EA Ulitma Online, the only reason these exist is because when the license agreement on the client allowed it to be used as freeware.
Someone took the client and reversed engineered a server that can communicate with it, so the software they use isn’t the same as OSI.
The only reason the servers havn’t been taken down is because it would cost to much (lawyers) to take them down and if they did, most wouldn’t convert to OSI anyway.
There are emulators being written for newer MMORPGS as well, they havn’t been very successful yet though.
Kerith
Jan 17th, 2004
Just a little addition to the non-EA Ulitma Online, the only reason these exist is because when the license agreement on the client allowed it to be used as freeware.
Someone took the client and reversed engineered a server that can communicate with it, so the software they use isn’t the same as OSI.
The only reason the servers havn’t been taken down is because it would cost to much (lawyers) to take them down and if they did, most wouldn’t convert to OSI anyway.
There are emulators being written for newer MMORPGS as well, they havn’t been very successful yet though.
Urizenus
Jan 17th, 2004
Thanks Kerith, I have to say that I find this topic fascinating. I know that there are some extremely successful EQ emulators too. To the best of my knowledge no one playing TSO has the combination of technical interest and ability to reverse engineer a TSO emulator. But perhaps I’m wrong. Does anyone know of such an ongoing effort here?
toy
Jan 18th, 2004
Thank you as well from toy Kerith
toy wasnt aware of what the legal steps or conditions were for UO toy just only knew it was done 
toy actually ran her own UO server for a few months.
Toy thanks you for clarifying this
toy
Urizenus
Jan 18th, 2004
Toy, you ran your own UO server???
Tell us more!
toy
Jan 18th, 2004
it was rather easy Uri…. toy just went to a site and got the UO sphere server.. toy had a limit tho cause of hardware as to how many people could play on her own server the limit was like 10-15 people at once…. toy found it very educational as far as learning how the mechanics worked in UO….. the cities could remain unchanged but they could be altered drastically…… it was a good rxperience where friends could come and learn also and not worry about anyone bothering them
Characters could be altered, skilling. spawning of items, lots of things.
toy