Op/Ed: The Case Against an Adults-Only Server

by Alphaville Herald on 30/01/04 at 8:29 pm

By Lady Julianna

Contrary to proposals made by Urizenus in recent press interviews, I think age-segregated servers are a very bad idea. The game would die if Maxis were to create an adults only server.

There are not enough players to support all the cities and servers as it is. I played for a while in Mt. Fuji and had a top money house in it’s heyday. Come the summer, people dropped out of the game to do summer things, and after the summer many did not come back. A lot of people got bored and left the game. The cities started to die; not enough people. As a top money house I was used to having 18 or more on the property whenever I was open, and jumping to let more in. Traffic slowed down to the point where I was lucky to have 5 or 6 in house, but I had not fallen down the list. No one else was doing better, and all of the top houses were sharing the same experience. Not enough players were present to keep all the cities alive. The same thing was happening in East Jerome. My friends and I (only one or two were BDSM and at that time I was not publicly in the lifestyle) did a count on numbers present in the top houses in different cities, and we discovered that Alphaville still had a sizable number of players. And that is how and why I returned to Alphaville. I had played there long ago as a beta tester. (Julianna is not on my founder account, but I am a founder.)

If Maxis were to try to create an adult server and segregated certain players onto it… well, one of the servers would die. Either Alphaville or the adult server, or perhaps both. This game is constructed so that you need other players for the economy and skill building to work. You need a certain number of players for a city to work, and I am not sure what that number is but I am very sure that Maxis has a pretty good idea. And subscription numbers are low. If we had the number of subscribers that EQ has, then it would be possible.

Who would want to play in Alphaville after we and others were forced out? I can tell you where the kids would want to play, and it would not be in Alphaville. They would be trying hard to get onto the adult server, and a determined teen can usually succeed in these efforts.

This would also mean that Alphaville would then have to be better policed by Maxis to ensure that adult content did not occur there. We already know they would not do that; there are not enough time, resources and money. The game is not profitable for them. EA would probably just pull the plug on the game as they have other non-profitable games.

Your intent may be good, but I do not think you have considered the consequences, and you might unintentionally cause the death of the game, and that would upset me.

Look at the median age of the game: 26. Most of the kids quickly get bored with the game. Perhaps they get more social interaction in their lives at school or with their real life friends. Friends are very important to teens. I think the game ultimately fails to hold the younger player anyway, and they usually leave to find a shooter game where they can kill something and be truly violent (and that worries me more). It is too bad, and I think the kids become griefers before they leave to try to entertain themselves.

My son John at 17 played the game for a while. I am well aware of the sexual content in the game. I was also aware that at 17 my son was not a virgin. He had had sex and we talked about it. I wish he had not so young, but.. at the same time I recognize that probably most kids have sex for the first time between 16 and 18. The sexual content of the game did not concern me for he had discovered sex in the real world. If he did go to a cyber brothel and learned about cyber sex… it would not be new to him either. I am sure he had encountered that before in ICQ. I never revealed myself to him as Julianna. There are certain things that my kids do not need to know about me, and just because I am their mother does not mean they have a right to know all things about me.

He became bored with the game after three months. He started to become a griefer.. landing on lots, making rude comments, stealing gnomes, and getting banned from a lot of houses. I became aware when I received account suspension notices from Maxis. He said he was trying to spice the game up for himself and have fun by tormenting others. I was disappointed. I told him I had hoped that he would use the game to hone some of his social skills and have fun through making friends and building something online. To him, this would take too much work and he was frustrated by working months to build and then having no visitors to his home. After the third suspension, I told him I was cancelling his account, and he was not upset. He said he was bored with it anyway and he moved on to Battlefield 1942.

My point is that kids won’t stay longer than three months anyway. They probably knew about cyber sex in ICQ long before I ever did. They will be exposed to it. They are the computer and internet generation. They might be better at policing their children than we are. The truth for a lot of us is that our children know more about the net than we do and they exploit it far more than we do.

Okay, so worse case scenario… a 15-year-old has cyber sex in the game. It is just words, it is not real. It is a fantasy. They could find worse in the playboy magazine hidden under their bed. I would hope they interact with someone their own age and not an adult. In the end I worry far less about this kind of exposure to sex than I do the violent video games. I do want my children at some point in their lives to have sex; I want grandchildren after all! I do not want them to go to school and shoot someone though. Worry more about violent video games and violent movies.

We are soooo hung up about sex in our society… sheesh.

I remember at 13 I was finding my mother’s books.. Harlequinn romances and some juicy bodice rippers. I went out and bought some, and a few had some very juicy passages. No-one questioned a 13-year-old girl buying books. I did not need to hide them and no-one has suggested that books be rated. I loved those books, lol. Sexual interest that young is also normal. We begin to awaken at that age. Now that I have admitted that, should we turn our scrutiny to the publishing industry? Should we burn books?

I think the warning label on the box about adult content is sufficient. Relax, sex is not evil. Bigotry, segregation, censorship, book burning… these things are evil.

Could I recommend that Urizenus correct press interviewers in the future when they describe his goal as being to expose the seamier side of TSO life? I really hate my name or my property or BDSM coming up as a part of the discussion of something as seamy or dirty or vulgar. Correct them and emphasize that you are only interested in our community as an example of the evolution of a social group within the game.

I might be Domme, and yes I am sexy, but I am not dirty or seamy or vulgar. I will not tolerate swearing or bad behaviour in my house. I am a lady, and woe to anyone who fails to treat me as such.

59 Responses to “Op/Ed: The Case Against an Adults-Only Server”

  1. Dyerbrook

    Jan 31st, 2004

    In fact, sex *is* evil, when it is in the hands of someone who is an adultress, who believes it is OK for 15-year-old children to have sex merely because they want to have grandchildren, and damn the consequences for the child, his sexual partners, their families, and the community at large, and when that person makes sex the center of their game play and their lives, taking the place of God or any higher power, and when they distort it in a lifestyle celebrating violence and enslavement. Yes, indeed, that it is evil; it is the very incarnation of evil. It is particularly evil when sex of this violent and aggressive type is used as a weapon against others, when it becomes part of shrill screech implying that other people who question your lifestyle of BDSM, adultery, and destroying children’s innocence, is somehow indicative of their bigotry, or their supposed narrow minds, or their denial of the pleasure principle. All of this reasoning is suspect, and it is important to expose it as such. It is the reasoning of a cult, it is the reasoning of a closed society, it is the reasoning of limited, unthinking minds and it has no place in this game.

    You may not care if your male son has sex so you can selfishly get yourself grandchildren, but to assume that anyone who questions your hedonistic judgement on this matter has something wrong with them, is to completely overlook the realities of teenage sex and the sorrows they can bring. They can bring STDs, AIDS, date rape, unwanted pregnancy, the trauma of abortion, and too early motherhood. If none of these things happen, they can still bring deep emotional trauma, trauma that in teenage sexual relationships is more often born by the girl, not the boy. To overlook these realities, and to be a part of promoting them in this game, seems highly irresponsible to me. To act like “anything goes” and “everyone is doing it” is therefore a justification for something to be right is the most circular reasoning in the book, and it defies logic.

    But we’re not just talking about sex, and your deft sleight of hand in moving the discussion from hardcore BDSM sex and prostitution — the reason for the call for an adult server — to ordinary, “vanilla” sex, is yet another example of your resort to manipulations and distractions, anything but simply using a little of that very discipline for which you claim to be so famous in restraining your own animal instinct and selfishness.

    We’re talking about BDSM, not regular sex as it is first experienced by teens in the game or not, and it is this kind of hardcore play that I mean when I say that there should be an adult server. There shouldn’t be an adult server because a few adults want to get off in IMs and cyber in private or some teens want to experiment, or because there is a love bed, or a Moroccan bed with silken ties, or a bubble blower. There should be an adult server because there are people like you who want to practice an extreme and radical sub-culture that brooks no dissent, and does not want to practice any restraint, except the kind that comes with boots on necks and with ropes.

    If BDSM is so wonderful, why can’t your son know about it then? It’s OK for him to have sex as a minor, but then it’s not ok for him to know about this kind of rough sex? Well, there is a line you would draw then? That’s interesting, because you won’t let anyone else draw one. I saw on another chat board a thoughtful BDSM practitioner that said he did not believe BDSM, like any other lifestyle, had the right to be exempt from any kind of critical challenge to its premises or practices. And he is so right. Indeed, if anything, he pointed out, it deserves even more scrutiny precisely because it uses violence, and “accidents” can happen leading to injury and death. And I would also add there is the issue of consent, because we really cannot take it on faith from people such as you, who will pervert every decent thing that anyone says in defense of morality and their children, and try to make them out to be witch-hunting, prudish bigots. Not so.

    I never could understand why it was OK in your book to say “you must be 21 to enter my lot” and you claim to rigorously police this, and yet when we suggest that Maxis in a sense make a giant lot to put *you* on, and keep under 21 away from you, all of a sudden you say there is no way they can police that. This is the huge hole in your argument through which a Mack truck could be driven. YOU are able to ensure our children’s safety with your “you must be 21″. But when a game company tries this with the use of Paypal or credit cards, all of a sudden it has as many holes as a sieve because of all those conniving teens out there? How come they connive to get on Maxis’ over-21 server, but they don’t connive to get on your lot? This is your biggest hypocrisy, and you would think, having been exposed in it, you would cease this madness. We don’t trust you to protect our young. We see what a “great job” you’re doing with yourself and your own family, and we don’t buy it. Your blindness to that reality is appalling, but is only explained by your equally appalling self-centeredness.

    And I stand by Urizenus’ characterization of your lifestyle as the “seamy side” — if in fact he meant that, and I won’t be surprised if he wimps out of it, since he’s never actually said word one specifically about BDSM, and he has never made the slightest effort to keep these discussions on topic or away from bitter ad hominem attacks when it is a matter of you all attacking me. Indeed, he is happy to *stand by and hold the cloak like Saul* while the stoning is going on.

    You *are* the seamy side of TSO and it is *perfectly fine* to point out that about people who think it is pretty to have someone groveling at their feet in the dirt, with whip welts on their back, serving as a slave and as a sexual object of pleasure. It is not pretty. It is seamy. It is revolting. At least have the courage of your convictions. “Mikal, bring me my whip” indeed!

    It doesn’t matter if there are not enough people in the cities. Too bad. Let them build a more interesting game. People leave it if they feel disgusted, or if they feel they really can’t let their teens loose in it, let alone children. If your son got bored and started griefing and then got booted by Maxis, the game is better for it. that doesn’t mean an adult server is a failure. We all know that this company does not have the subscriptions it hoped for, and that it probably does not have the luxury of providing two games, one for the leather set, and one for those who want to live in freedom from leather, slavery, violence, and explicit sex. But your persistence in maintaining a high level of aggressiveness, the visibility, and the thorough maliciousness of your community *guarantee* that the press will write more and more about this, and it won’t be me to whom you’re making these arguments, but Congressional committees and the FBI.

    Worst of all, you are using very unseemly blackmail against Urizenus or any of us, by blaming *us* for causing “the death of the game”. This is arrant bullshit. Mafias, would-be totalitarians, and sado-masochists have killed this game, as they kill any society, not those who oppose them. To mix up that reality and try to flip it around is the height of perversion. You came in the game. You gave it a reputation for being a den of inquity. The media wrote about it. The game company is now in a panic about what to do. Deal with it. It isn’t because too many people had tilyu drop contests, it’s because a whole mob of people rushed in and aggressively called for the enslavement of men and women in the name of sexual pleasure and the thrill of power. That is still not the norm in our society, thank God. You’re getting a push-back, as well you should, and trust me, I am merely the first swallow of spring on this, and the kind of patient, liberal thoughtfulness which I have given you is not at all the treatment you’ll be given from the general public.

    The comparison of reading a book when you were 13 to playing this game when you are 13 is completely skewed. A book is only a book, something read passively. But this is a game where human beings interact with other human beings. Maybe the Sims are pixelated and simulated, but the people operating them are real and have real emotions and feelings, they are not people in a fictional book. When you read a book, the characters don’t talk back! This game has actually broken up marriages, it has wrecked lives, it has devastated people’s souls.It is able to do that because it is the Great Magnifier, it exaggerates drama and emotions to such a pitch that they are felt like a laser-like burn, even more real for some people than their real life. It is precisely because it enables people to remove the barriers of space, time, gender, age, race, etc. that it is so powerful. It is not just typing dirty messages– or is it? I go back and forth on this, so please Uri, turn off your police sirens and stop checking all my blogs to see if I am contradicting myself. In one way it is, and is easily dismissed by a court of law. But in another way, it is very addictive and entrancing stuff especially for young people without the inner resources to resist its blandishments. I don’t think that children and teens should be exposed to the utter degradation and despair represented by the violent, anything-goes lifestyle of BDSM. The soul-shattering essay about depersonalization you link to on your site comes from the depths of hell. To encourage young people to be poisoned by that despair and degradation is the heighth of perversity.

    I am seriously debating in my mind whether we should stop calling for an adult server, and stop calling on BDSMers to exercise more restraint, and simply start massively filing in-game complaints against all BDSM players with the purpose of getting them removed from the game, or at least forced to erase their profiles. Already, some are doing this. Trust me, there will be plenty to join such an action. You put “you must be 21″ on your websites, and yet you roam through the game with the same come-hither recruiting ads on their profiles that you supposedly had to protect the under-21 set from when they banned from from their lot. If anyone objects, we are told that children are not innocent, that they are sluts, that they do worse in rl, that they are themselves the rapists, etc. etc. I find that horrific. If there is some minority of hardened sickos like Evangeline, they are not speaking for the majority, and we should dumb down the game to the lowest denominator.

    I am thinking we should ask Maxis/EA to make good on their claim that this is a teen-rated game, and that their public statement to the Times and other papers, to the effect that they do not allow explicit sexual content in the game, should be challenged to see if they themselves will comply with it.

    Let me conclude by saying that in all your posts, you have revealed yourself to have a thoroughly tiny and cramped mind, a total lack of self-awarenes, and now I can say with full confidence, you are a total ass. I do not need psychiatric help, and I am not a bigot because I have chosen to fight such evils as what you represent. I am not Urizenus, and your ridiculous paranoia on this subject is yet another proof of your total lack of credibility in making any of your arguments.

  2. Lady Julianna

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Oh look, it is my number one fan, hehe. I am flattered by all the time and attention you spend on me Dyer, but it is embarassing, people will talk my dear.

    You twist things around.. my words are there for all to see and for clear minds to see their meaning.

    Do I care about your opinion and non-stop ranting and raving? “Frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.”

    I apologize to you publicly Uri, it is clear to me now that you are not Dyer. I can understand how offensive that suggestion was to you. It would be to anyone I think.

  3. Lady Julianna

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Oh and by the way Dyer, I have nothing to fear from your Congressional Committees and FBI. I am Canadian, remember?

  4. Catseye

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Dang thought the holier than thou had left the building… come on Dyer don’t forget me I want some of that twisted knowledge loving from you as well..

    Yes Teen age pregenancy is a bad thing I know lets Nuke Mississippi they have the highest rate that way we can get rid of it all together… oops I forget it is the Game that is doing it not the parents Not giving a crap enough to take a stand and TEACH of course because that is the buckle of the bible belt ever notice the unwed mother or teen mother numbers from the south which screams the loudest about how holy they are?… Prostitution is Legal in Germany.. The Netherlands and according to the NY times Camboda.. hey lets nuke them as well after all if you pay them enough you can buy anything as long as it causes no permenant harm course since I was in germany and saw the husbands picking their wives up from the RLD … Sexual torture is noted in some third world countries and no not BDSM style but the fact that they remove the clitoris yet TSO is the thing you decide to take a stand on… Hey States Have 21 age laws on drinking yet how many teens get DWI’s? get a friggen clue..

    One thing Dyerbrook that is killing your cause is your switching between real life and the game.. this leads me to believe that you should seek mental help to correct your illsionial fantasy which everyone else calls life…

    Lady J stated that she does not play BDSM games in real life.. yet you label her of running sex dens in her basement… oh I know you cant get anything on her in game so you are making things up in real life to again make yourself look better…

    You jump around as much as a grasshopper on a heated griddle from real life to game .. from BDSM to Wicca.. your posts are long and full of more manure than the stables in Kentucky put together.. you are not saying that teens that are being used in TSO is evil.. you are saying that each and everyone that plays BDSM in game is evil so I am assuming your little mind is thinking that all BDSM involves a teenager in a roleplay setting?

    hmm ok lets do it let’s give the world an insight of the Dyerism utopia I am taking it real life for that is where he has the problem since there can be no slavery.. pregancy.. STD in game..

    1) No more edcuation of Safe sex it could be taught to a 13 year old who is about to give a blow job to a boy on the school bus

    2) Everyone will be shipped to a country/state where only their religion is being taught as right after all if we do not belive it we are Evil this makes it easier..

    3)There will be no games after all that is the cause of all the evil in the world (yes no games after all cards are used to gamble.. Monolopy will have to go as well since Money is the root of all evil)

    4)All people who sin will be put to death so god can judge them instead of some insane man like Dyerbrook or like the two judges who said that the parents could not speak another language to their own childern..

    5)Abortion will also be outlawed no matter if the child is made in Rape incest hate instead of love this will of course make the child unloved but hey they would be alive..

    6)Chatolicism would be outlawed due to the Priests and the altar boys

    7)Pentecostal faith will be outlawed as well since Oral Robert’s claim that God told him he was going to die and Mr. Roberts was afraid to face his God so how can what he was taught or teaching be truth?

    8)The Word Cult would be re defined the following is the dictionary.com ..
    cult
    n.

    1
    a) A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
    b) The followers of such a religion or sect.
    2 A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
    3 The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
    4 A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

    5
    a) Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
    b) The object of such devotion.
    6) An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

    in the current definitation 1-4 would not fit 5a would not fit for I have not met anyone who is obessed with BDSM other than Dyerism… there is no object named BDSM so can’t be 5b

    hmm 6 nope it is not secret look it up on the Internet..

    where was I?

    9) Jimmy swagart (need I say more.. paying for sex making inquiries of having sex with a 7 year old girl yet he still is allowed to preach the word of god? my goodness)

    I think that is enough this round.. all returns to parents taking time out and talking to their Kids discussing what ever your child wants to talk about after all the Bible even mentions who sired who and we place this book in our 7 and 8 year olds hands if not younger.. Romance Novles have some very steamy passages in them as well and yes I have “borrowed” some back when I was cybering…

    You want to keep your kids from Sex.. take away the TV take away the Radio take away the news papers lock them in a small room with no windows and then MAYBE they will not be exposed to Sex.. Violence.. Crime until you let them out… but that is slavery no?

    Dyer stick to game or real do not mix them most of us have intelligence to draw the line between them you time after time prove your lines are blurred you need help … if you want I can give you a name of a decent psychriast in your area that you can go talk to about your obession.. the first step is admiting you have a problem.. the next step is admitting you have no idea what you are talking about and the third step is learning about it if you wish or just finding a platform that you know about to preach the evils of.. hmm how about the Christian Faith and it’s leaders who can not follow the simple teachings of their own God yet scream for everyone else to ~shakes head~

    and I thought you were dismissed

  5. Lady Julianna

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Well said Catseye. Dyer has been dismissed, even if he has not left. I dismiss his posts as a rant, grasping at straws and twisting words to mean what the author had no intent of them meaning. His posts are simply not important.

    He is powerless. All he can do is flap off at the mouth, barking like a small dog trying to get the attention of the bigger dogs.

  6. Mikal

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Let’s not forget about MTV and VH1 with the videos about sex…..and the shows that they have on them. The reality shows. i’ve caught a glimpse of them a couple of times. i’m sure the teens just love watching it. After all, it talks about sex and sexual issues…..hmm……..had gays on the show and what not. Don’t forget, if have cable……geez……how many movies come on cable that show sexual acts……hmmm…even been some movies on regular tv showing sexual acts…must cut out all inuedos to sex to pacify the crying one or two.

    i agree….it’s up the the parents to police their own children. Sit them down. Talk to them. How many teens have already had sex, alcohol, cigarettes, drugs?!?! (lol don’t start spouting off at the mouth about how i’m saying it’s ok for these teens to have done these things either.) How many of those teens had parents who talked to them?!? (if did, 9 out of 10 wouldn’t have turned to drinking, drugs, cigarettes, sex) i don’t mean just yelling at them. Talking is a two way street. Means you have to listen to what they say too. i have talked to my kids about drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc. They are still a little too young to talk to about sex, although i have answered a few questions, answering age appropriately. Again, this is lazy parents way of bowing out of the responsibility of being a parent. Stand up and take responsibility and talk to your kids. Pay attention to what they are doing, who they are talking to, who they hang out with. It’ll be worth it in the long run.

  7. Lady Julianna

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Well said my darling. You are a wonderful father to your daughters, and that is something I love about you.

    That and your sexy little butt!

    Oh my, I said sexy… don’t have a stroke Dyer.

    Dyer, a music videos for you to watch… Erotica by Madonna. That is part of our pop culture and that video could be shown on TV. We are accepted as part of mainstream society, whether you like it or not. Rail all you want. You have no power.

  8. TSKELLI

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Thanks, Dyerbrook, for proving my point. It is abundantly clear that your crusade here has much less to do with the realities of TSO than it does with your overarching revulsion for BDSM, which you believe is, alternatively, perverse, sick, evil and “from Hell”, in your words. Well, believing those things will turn you into a crusader, and so this one now understands you better. You are completely wrong about BDSM, you do not really understand it, but it is now abundantly clear why you are on your crusade.

  9. Catseye

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Hey let’s discuss something… well ok the US people…

    How about the No child left behind plan that was recently passed.. sounds good on paper and affects 90% of the students.. unfortuanly the plan slams the door in the faces of the ones who can not be bused to a better school.. it does not take into consideration the students that live in the Bush.. no roads.. so what happens to them? How about talking about ANWAR? hmm or we can talk about other acronyms.. How do we feel about SASE? NASA? Hey all us Americians lets talk about Free Health Care… there are so many other important issues we can breach… is it ok to lie if you can accomplish your goals? hmm now there is a subject that Dyer has experience in.. so tell me Dyer there were no WMD’s in Iraq.. it was just a lie to get Saddam out of power..

  10. Just A Lurker

    Jan 31st, 2004

    HEY…how about this…on the “Official EA Website”…the page is littered with phrases like…”Be Whoever you want to in The Sims Online”…and..In the Sims Online, its up to YOU to create exciting new worlds”…and my personal favorite…”Get Real…or Riduculous”. One of my most favorite paragraphs states …”Life is what you make it…Let your imagination run wild. Choose your online role, and play your way in this unpredictable, infinite,online world.”

    That being said..for those of you who have no other Real Life Quest, other than to spread your holier than thou attitudes on the internet..I say to you get a CLUE!!! This is a game…if you dont wish to play…THEN DON’T…make a choice for yourself to not spend the 10 dollars monthly fee. I am sure that you can find better things that exist in your own communities that deserve the attention that you are giving a bunch of people who play an “ONLINE GAME”.

    You might ask..am I a BDSMer? NO I am not..I’m just a regular person who plays TSO without a judgemental attitude…and someone who knows how to choose her battles.

    To Dyer and all those who think like him…Why not choose to conquer a REAL LIFE Battle instead of fixating on that of a virtual game…get it..the key word here is “GAME”…which is meant to be played and enjoyed…and don’t forget…the “Play Your Way” part..

    I am sure that if you put as much energy in to say…lowering Health Care Costs..you might actually do a bit of good….Just learn to pick your battles. Cause its quit clear that you wont win this one.

    Happy Simming people!!!

  11. Lady Julianna

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Woot Lurker! Happy simming to you too my dear :)

  12. Snowcrash

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Excuse me, I’m just a regular guy who likes to hop by this site (By regular guy I mean non-TSO player). I just have a small question for Lady Julianna.

    I absolutely stand by the way you choose to raise your son. You seem to me to be a very loving and understanding mother. I was wondering about some of the comments you made about violent video games. Why do you feel that video games induce violent behavior in teenagers?

    Forgive me for taking this off-topic, you don’t have to answer here. You may email me if you wish. I’ve read too many cyberpunk books and I’m fascinated by electronic media and its relation to human behavior (which is why I’m so fascinated with this website). I’m not interested in starting a flame war, I just want the opinions of real people instead of having it forced down my throat by the media.

    Once again I apologize for making an off-topic post. Thank you for your time.

  13. toy

    Jan 31st, 2004

    toy would ask you dyer is sex only not evil if its done according to your dictates? and if so just what do you deem as acceptable sex? :)

    toy has a short story to convey as this girl sees dyer munching a whopper at his friendly neighborhood Burger King…… he stares out the window… seeing these um Golden Arches across the street….. watching idly and wondering how anyone could enjoy a fried burger… after all flame broiled must be better…. even tho he has never had a McDonalds buger…. but they just cant be normal… and look at all the people there!!! why they actually seem to be enjoying it!!! OMG… whats this strange red and yellow car pulling up over there??? and that that clown person exiting the car!!! look at those children rushing up just to be close to Ronald McDonald!!!! OMG… how can this be??? its not normal !!!! everyone knows a flame broiled burger is better!!!! ~wiping his mouth smuggly while the answer comes to his small mind~ its a cult… it has to be a cult and the leader is Ronald McDonald, after all it has to be a cult, no one could enjoy a McDonalds buger unless they had been brainwashed.. ~quietly leave his beloved Burger King his eyes fall upon a sign with a cute redheaded girl in pigtails…… ~eyes widden!!!! OMG.. another cult and Wendy is the leader!!!!!

    perhaps this small story would point out to you dyer just how narrow minded and obsessed you are :)

    toy :)

  14. Dyerbrook

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Well, no surprises here, nothing new under the sun from the gang of tiny-minded cacklers on this list. But let’s continue this discussion for the sake of, oh, those 6,243 visitors per day or however many Uri claims come here, shall we?

    It’s hilarious how the BDSM nutters urche from angrily denouncing me for challenging their lifestyle IRL and showing a healthy revulsion for what probaby 95 percent of the people out there are revulsed by, and then claiming it’s just a game and that I am “mixing up RL and the game” all the way hastily assuring us that they don’t really do the hardest hardcore form of BDSM, anyway. They are the ones that keep making their denunciations of me about the importance of having tolerance for all lifestyles in the world, of having the freedom to do your own thing in your home free of government interference, etc. etc., although no one, least of all me, has ever challenged that RL aspect of what they do.

    The frame for this discussion is rather what is appropriate *in the game. Indeed, that is the subject even of this thread, which is a re-tread of the one about an adult server in TSO started by Urizenus. People bring their RL attitudes to this game, of course, and that’s fine. And it is perfectly fine to bring an attitude of revulsion about violence and degradation to this game — indeed, it is the norm. Indeed, it is the proper expectation for a Teen-rated game.

    Is this topic of this debate “Is BDSM OK for consenting adults in the society at large?” No, that’s not the topic. Is the topic, “But *is* BDSM OK for consenting adults?” No, the topic is “Is BDSM appropriate to be allowed in this game?” And here, BDSM gets no special privilege or protection from scrutiny, debate, or criticism. It doesn’t get it in the game, and it doesn’t get it IRL, either, although it will have more latitude for RL than the game, contrary to its prejudices. The trouble with BDSM on that score is that BDSMers feel heartily free to bear down on vanillas, on ordinary family life, on the morals and kids in general and games in general, on what it imagines to be the culture of the Christian right (an utter stereotype) so it surely can’t expect to get a pass itself (do unto others, etc.). And that critique is exactly what I bring here: BDSM is not a basis for a civiliation, real or simulated, and represents the failure of civilization. It is not a value. It is not desirable. And if its presence is tolerated in the name of a liberal society and privacy for individuals, that doesn’t mean it gets a pass, and that “anything goes” in a game community, which is in much more close quarters. Indeed, because it represents the negation and nihilation of society, it should be challenged, and especially challenged in a virtual world, even if in an exaggered fashion, through an avatar and the exigencies and features of the game.

    The excuse that BDSM is “just” role-play and not practiced outside the game doesn’t wash. We are well aware of a debate among the BDSM crowd over the “RL” BDSM and the “fake” BDSM who are just weekend warriors, so to speak. It’s precisely because what Lady Julianna does is supposed to be the prettied up, “vanilla form” of the non-vanilla BDSM — the pure RP supposedly blessed even within the sanctity of marriage (!) — that I am singling it out for challenge. It creates the moral climate that makes the other BDSM, the RL hardcore BDSM possible, and that is to be condemned. The BDSM lots hook up to RL people with RL webpages and RL sex clubs. Yet this is a game with children, young people, and even vulnerable adults in it. Therefore it is pernicious and ought not to be in the game. By saying she doesn’t “really do BDSM IRL” Lady J. opens up the door to a schism in her “community” — a division of the real and the simulated. Yet she admits no such schism, preferring to circle the wagons in defense of even violent, bloodied, cat-scratching Toy and Maria *who brag that they behave this way IRL and hold it up as a model for youth. For shame.

    Time and again, Lady J. has tried to draw me into a debate about violent video games and the little (and big) boys who play them. I refuse to “go there” with her. It’s not the subject of TSO or this website, but I refuse to debate about the levels of violence on TV and in video games and how it influences youth with someone who *celebrates* violence in the most intimate relationship people can have, the sexual act, and who tries to prettify violence and the “power exchange” of BDSM into some kind of special “genteel” permitted area free from any general condemnation of violence in society, hinging on the dubious consent doctrine. This is the height of hypocrisy. Therefore I refuse to discuss it. Go discuss it on some other list.

    Finally, this idea that “the box” which says “Be Somebody Else” and “Challenge Everything” gives BDSM and other sub-cultures a life-long pass to make mischief, mayhem, and murder. It does not, or at least it should not. Perhaps ea.com didn’t mind if that sexy subtle whisper “Challenge Everything” on the game’s intro became an anthem of a nation destroying the social order, admitting mafias, sado-masochist and other sub-cultists. But there is such a notion of community. If somebody expected that the net effect of everybody “being somebody else” would be something salutory, boy, were they wrong. It is taken to mean “Do whatever I feel like and fuck everyone else.”

  15. Lady Julianna

    Jan 31st, 2004

    He he toy :) Very cute. I love it.

    Thank you for your kind comments Snow. I do not have any data or proof that violent video games induce violent behaviour in teens. It may exist, but if it does, I am not aware of it.

    However, I do know that there is data to indicate that observing violence in real life or in the media can cause people to emulate that violence, especially if they see it being rewarded. Consider the hockey player.. he is violent, and he is richly rewarded in money and fame. I would refer you to the work of psychologists Skinner, Pavlov, and Bandura. You will find them in any first year university psychology textbook.

    Video games are a little different. The player gets rewards in game… money, status, respect and friendship of other players, and friends in real life who gather around the computer with them. I don’t know what the impact will be, but I am concerned. It will take a few years to discover the outcome. Perhaps there will be some good outcomes, such as improved hand eye coordination in the general population. But I do fear that there will be some negative impact as well.

    Hope that answers your question Snowcrash.

  16. Lady Julianna

    Jan 31st, 2004

    I’ll correct myself before someone else does.. Pavlov was not a psychologist, he was a biologist. :)

  17. toy

    Jan 31st, 2004

    toy would mention to you first off that this girl doesnt need to resort to name calling to make her point, something you seem to lack… not enough self control dyer? :)

    toy is also patiently awaiting this so called 95% you so freely claim who are against what others happen to believe :)

    finally toy would mention to you dyer that your once again repeating yourself…. please try to come up with a new reasoning what you have been saying grows old and has been proven false :)

    BTW… arer you intimidated to get in a open discussion with this girl? toy feels so since you repeatedly ignore her honest questions :)

    perhaps you feel that since toy is 19 she doesnt deserve answers to her questions? :)

    toy :)

  18. Dyerbrook

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Re: “BTW… arer you intimidated to get in a open discussion with this girl? toy feels so since you repeatedly ignore her honest questions :) perhaps you feel that since toy is 19 she doesnt deserve answers to her questions?

    People that refer to themselves in the 3rd person, ascribe to the belief system of slavery (willing slavery!) and reveal a severe case of psychotic disassociation do not really merit serious dialogue.

  19. Snowcrash

    Jan 31st, 2004

    Thank you for giving me a straight answer, Lady Julianna. It’s very interesting to hear the responses from average people as opposed to media figures.

    Okay, so now I guess I’ll just go back to my Mi-Golike observation of this blog.

    Happy Metaversing.

  20. toy

    Jan 31st, 2004

    its becoming more and more obvious that you feel to good to have a discussion with this girl?

    toy will await answers from you for her questions. toy isnt resorting to name calling as you are doing dyer… toy just wishes for a few answers to her questions…

    are they to hard? should toy make them simpler for you?

    toy :)

  21. toy

    Jan 31st, 2004

    ooopsy toy didnt finish reading what you said….. sooooo you feel your to good now to answer this girls questions?? :)

    toy :)

  22. Dyerbrook

    Jan 31st, 2004

    No, I feel you are not a proper interlocutor because you psychotically refer to yourself in the third person. Buh-bye…

  23. Catseye

    Feb 1st, 2004

    ~reads Dyerbrook’s post and decides to wait til he can stop crossing the lines~

  24. Catseye

    Feb 1st, 2004

    oops I want to answer after all…

    People that refer to themselves in the 3rd person, ascribe to the belief system of slavery (willing slavery!) and reveal a severe case of psychotic disassociation do not really merit serious dialogue.

    umm her name isn’t toy in real so she is refering to her character in 3rd person… of course using your statement above Gollum ascribes to the belief of slavery.. maybe you should contact Tolkiens relatives and tell them what evil they have unleashed on the world

  25. Lady Julianna

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Dyer… run along now. Time to lick your wounds like the dog you are and wait for the next thread to rant again.

  26. toy

    Feb 1st, 2004

    hmmmmm… sooooo toy can honestly conclude that your eaither afraid to answer this girl or have no answers to this girls questions dyer :)

    fear is such a dreadful thing dyer…. no matter how girl speaks should not enter into a discussion, so toy must conclude you have no answers.. this isnt surprising since you always seem to avoid answering any questions.. yoy just repeat yourself over and over… toy sometimes wonders if your simply a puppet, one who is given one thought and then shut down to further input :) such a pitiful existence dyer :)

    toy :)

  27. TSKELLI

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Initially my thought was that this was not worthy of further response, but since it is Sunday morning and since I find it, um, entertaining, what the heck.

    “nothing new under the sun from the gang of tiny-minded cacklers”

    And here is the first example of the kind of ad hominem attack toy was critically noting, very rightly.

    “the BDSM nutters”

    And another ad hominem attack, about four lines later.

    “angrily denouncing me for challenging their lifestyle IRL and showing a healthy revulsion for what probaby 95 percent of the people out there are revulsed by, … although no one, least of all me, has ever challenged that RL aspect of what they do.”

    This simply doesn’t make sense. You do criticize what people do IRL, you say it s a healthy revulsion you have for it, and then you turn around and say that you do not challenge it. Well, narrowly read, what you seem to be saying is that IRL BDSMers are sick, perverse, twisted, etc, but you simply keep your mouth shut. Dunno if that it the case, but in any case thinking those things about others is the very first step of intolerance and bigotry regardless of whether one acts on it. If, for example, a while male simply thinks that black people are inferior or whatever reason but never does anything overt to act on that idea nevertheless he is still a racist. The fact that you believe these things about BDSMers IRL makes you an intolerant bigot, regardless of whether you have the modicum of decency and civility that encourages you to keep your mouth shut. And, in any case, I still maintain that it is this seemingly rather deep-seated revulsion for BDSM, based undoubtedly on a lack of understanding on your part, outside the game that generates your crusade to eliminate it from the game environment — otherwise you would be like the other folks in this thread who are not BDSMers but who really aren’t agitated about it like you are. Your own ideas IRL about it are what drives your in-game crusade against it. One thinks that you would do the same IRL if you felt threatened by BDSM. What would you do, Dyerbrook, if a BDSM couple moved in next door and began having BDSM parties at their house?

    “Is this topic of this debate “Is BDSM OK for consenting adults in the society at large?” No, that’s not the topic. Is the topic, “But *is* BDSM OK for consenting adults?” No, the topic is “Is BDSM appropriate to be allowed in this game?”“

    But my point is that your RL attitudes about BDSM are what drives your in-game crusade against us. If your RL attitudes were different, you wouldn’t be on this crusade, so contrary to your attempt to narrow the debate, a broader focus is entirely appropriate as it gets to the root of your concerns, and not their manifestation in the context of TSO, which is simply where you have chosen to pick your battle with us.

    “And that critique is exactly what I bring here: BDSM is not a basis for a civiliation, real or simulated, and represents the failure of civilization. It is not a value. It is not desirable.”

    And this is the basis for your attack — ideas about BDSM that come from outside the game. In any case, you are wrong. BDSM is not the failure of civilization, Dyer brook … it is a way of doing things that has always been with us and always will be. In recent decades, the flourishing of tolerance has made us more mainstream (we are on TV, in films, videos and everywhere else, it in’t hard to find us any more and far from being revulsed the average non-BDSM person seems at least mildly intrigued). We are as desirable as anything else is, as normal as everything else is, as appropriate as everything else is. Let me ask you, Dyerbrook, is it the case that homosexuality is not desirable or a failure of civilization simply because there is a hard core of bigots in society who are revulsed by it? Are you a homophobe as well, Dyerbrook? What is the diference, then, between homosexuality, on the one hand, and BDSM, on the other — both are practices that are condemned by certain segments of society at large, but increasingly tolerated by the mainstream. What is the difference, or is it also the case that all of the LBGT houses in TSO should be closed as well?

    “We are well aware of a debate among the BDSM crowd over the “RL” BDSM and the “fake” BDSM who are just weekend warriors, so to speak.”

    You will not succeed in trying to drive this wedge, Dyerbrook, in the face of someone like you, so I would not even try, if I were you.

    “It creates the moral climate that makes the other BDSM, the RL hardcore BDSM possible, and that is to be condemned.”

    And here you prove my point again that your crusade has to do with outside-the-game BDSM. You simply don’t have any more credibility, Dyerbrook, when you claim that you are simply concerned about in-game BDSM — you’ve just said that the real issue is whether this spills over outside the game, and this makes sense because it is abundantly clear that this is where the real source and target of your bigotry lies.

    “Yet she admits no such schism, preferring to circle the wagons in defense of even violent, bloodied, cat-scratching Toy and Maria *who brag that they behave this way IRL and hold it up as a model for youth. For shame.”

    You are a nasty person, Dyerbrook. Nasty ad hominem attacks, yet again. There is no “schism” in the face of bigotry the likes of yours, Dyer brook — hehe, you are the natural wagon-circler, if I ever saw one. But your own attack on Mistress Maria and toy is nasty and displays nothing more than a great lack of courage on your part. Rather than engage toy, you choose to attack her person, and then smugly fold your virtual arms and refuse to debate her. Coward!

  28. Lady Julianna

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Wow Tskelli… You go girl! Hehe. Well said.

    A schism over who is rl and only in game Dom/me or sub? I don’t think so. There has been much discussion about it, but that seems to be the nature of our community. We LOVE a good discussion. I have seen that in my home, here in these threads, and in other forums. We can talk away forever, disagree with each other, and still come out friends. I love that about our community.

    Dyer, you simply don’t understand us. You don’t care to listen to anyone and consider what is said and because of that you will never have a clue about us. I don’t waste my time trying to explain things to you or correct your twisted thinking and understanding because it would be a waste of time. It would be like casting pearls before swine. It’s your loss really, not ours. I really don’t care what you think. It is unimportant. You are powerless to harm us.

    I knew it would not take long for you to attack me here. You really are obsessed with me. Now that you should give some thought to and maybe seek some help, seriously.

    You would no doubt be a happier person if you could remove that cork from your a**, relax, and have some fun. Let others be and let them have their fun. Live and let live.

    I can picture you turning purple, your blood pressure going up as you read here. Keep it up and you will give yourself an ulcer, stroke or heart attack. Although I must admit that it would be difficult to mourn the loss of another bigot in the world, you are still a human being and I would not wish you any harm.

  29. Mikal

    Feb 1st, 2004

    re: “Finally, this idea that “the box” which says “Be Somebody Else” and “Challenge Everything” gives BDSM and other sub-cultures a life-long pass to make mischief, mayhem, and murder.” i have yet to see any BDSMers making mischief, mayhem…..ummm….*wonders how murder is possible in TSO..lmao* Another case of one who is too blind to see the forest for the trees. TSO fully knew…..as if anyone in game industry would have if had studied other online games that are similar…what would happen eventually in the game. The fact that they say “play your way” “be someone else”, etc. What they didn’t count on was self-riteous self-appointed crusaders who have an issue in rl to bring that intolerence to the game and then use blogs to seek out that which he can not do in rl. i agree with Tskelli…….only a coward behaves in this fashion.

    In regards to Congressional committees and FBI…i do believe they have their hands full ….hmm…thinking terrorists, murderers, child abductions….those come before any online game disbute. A/anyone who thinks that they would prefer to drop those cases and head over to U/us raise Y/your hands please. Sees only one hand raised…hmmmmm …wonder whose….

    As for other things causing violence in kids…there was a case of a 12 yr old who…stated was only imitating a professional wrestling move….stomped on a 6 yr old girl till her liver ruptured and she died. Where was his mother during all of this? Upstairs yelling at her to stop making all that fuss or she was going to get a spanking.

    quietly heading offline to spend time with my children and my fiance’….:D be well A/all…and seriously….get help with your obsessive disorder….

    Mikal

  30. Dyerbrook

    Feb 1st, 2004

    People who play online games are still a relatively small sub-set of the general population. People who play *this* online game as opposed to EverQuest or something else are an even smaller subset. And the people who chose to misuse this game for teens are an *even tinier* subset, and by contrast even with the whole BDSM world at large, much less than the general public at large, they are a tiny subculture indeed. They choose to be oblivious to this harsh fact. My attitude in RL to BDSM doesn’t really matter, and this game of somehow suspecting me of a RL revulsion to BDSM is beside the point — it may or may not be true, but since this is a discussion among avatars and people with “handles” or pseudonyms about a game, and the in-game presence of BDSM, it seems worth having on its own terms.

    In RL, for example, there is a very explicit BDSM shop right next to my son’s grade school. Every day, hundreds of children pass this large shop window, where male mannikins are dressed in studded harnesses and tiny leather jock straps. My son once asked in puzzlement “Why is that Halloween costume shop open all year?” I asked “Because some adults think they can spend their lives playing dress-up.” I might add “and this it’s OK to force it on children, and the non-consenting general public.” I don’t tell him, “This is the evil shop of the devil,” and I don’t start a crusade with the principle and the PTA to remove this shop from next to the school. It seems rather poor planning on the part of this shop to locate next to three schools, all of them elementary, with no bars or anything else from that lifestyle for 20 blocks (maybe they hope to bring in 13-year-olds spending their allowance), but its presence there is a function of other, more powerful and wealthier adults pushing the red-light distict off 42nd St., and filling it with Disney, so that now we have the remnants of the red-light district 20 blocks below. It is a sad commentary on many things, but it is not a focus of any kind of RL crusade on my part, cause life is short, and then you die.

    So there’s no “crusade,” but merely a bulletin from the real world. RL parents, journalists, clergy, etc., peering into this game, are appalled all on their own. The presence of the BDSM crowd all on its own caused them to be horrified. The Boston Globe guy, just some happy-go-lucky oddball tekkie who probably doesn’t read the Bible or go to church on Sundays, used the word “horrified neighbors” in his piece, although really, he had no testimony from those horrified neighbors. He expressed a “social truth”. Further, when BDSM was discussed on the more all-purpose Stratics board, with a wider audience, “creepy” was the word used several times, and a dislike of the idea of being someone’s slave was expressed repeatedly. So I cite all this in detail to remind you, who live under some kind of rock, oblivious of public opinion and even the tattered norms that prevail in society, that most people find BDSM revolting, and you don’t have to be on some kind of crusade to think so. The crusade is not about the revulsion of BDSM, the crusade is about compelling you to make arguments in defense of yourself, and seeing if you can meet the challenge of your critics. I see that you cannot.

    In his piss-poor, celebratory and giddy interviews, Uri never challenges, never asks, never even presents a shred of editorial or news judgement. Indeed, we now see he has had some private conversation with Lady Julianna, which she has reported and he has not (therefore it is suspect), in which we’ve learned that he considers himself “a friend” to BDSM, and has no problem with it, and is only interested in group dynamics, and was never part of any media effort to present BDSM as “seamy”. Yet is it the presence of the leather crowd, not just cyber prostitutes that we can’t actually muster up, that helped the media develop this characterization. So after luring in the media with this loss-leader, providing these lurid and shocking interviews with “Anonymous” and “Maria,” then Uri deftly slips away and rejoins his friends in saying it’s all neutral, it’s all good, anything goes. Chicanery of the very worst kind.

    Now, what about adhominem attacks? Oh, indeed there are. A few weeks went by, I was the victim of them over and over (called a bigot, a psycho, in need of help, an obsessive, a little boy, a would-be sniper, and all manner of terrible things — just go and look at your posts). No body cared, there is no TOS, there is no moderation. When this stream of filth culminated with Lady J saying I was Uri, merely because Uri was quoted as saying a very ordinary and common sense thing to the press about the need for an adult server *as a matter of discussion*, he was sent to the politically correct wall, and now has returned, er, not dead, but detesticulated, in the form of a presentation of Lady J, to which he has only the lamest of answers. For shame. So when we reach the pitch of paranoia of confusing me with Urizenus, then the gloves are off. Of course I will constate the facts as they can readily be perceived by any educated and sane person: Lady Julianna, you are an ass.

    Mikal, you’re presenting yet another typical distraction. You are basically saying this, “the violence we do in BDSM is OK because we’re cool, we’re adults, we control it, we use consent, and it is for our higher goal of both sexual pleasure, romance, and enjoying the thrill of triumphing over another human being but it’s our world, and get used to it.” We’re special, says this argument — make way. Meanwhile,those other people out there, who just play violent video games are stupid, and some yahoo mom who spanks her kids, and lets one kid brutally physically harm another because they watch too much TV, well THOSE are the people you should worry about, they are broken people whereas we’re cool, you say. But violence is violence, and you are hypocrits. You can’t distract from your own choice to use violence as the core of your sexual experience, romance, and mental gaming, and then take it away from these other people. Why is your violence purified and reified, and their violence is merely sordid and degenerate?

    It is a seamless continuum in our society, it is ALL disturbing and problematic, and your pathetic bid to carve out a special, protected place for your own violent games on this continuum is easily exposed. Violence is violence. It belongs to the world of instinctual beasts, not to the world of civilized men and women. End of story.

    Re: “What they didn’t count on was self-riteous self-appointed crusaders who have an issue in rl to bring that intolerence to the game and then use blogs to seek out that which he can not do in rl.”

    *righteous is the spelling. My “issue” in RL is not “my issue” but the issue of numerous parents and policy-makers out there. It’s just that they are still “out there” and not here that you can’t see it. I think it is intereseting to force you to hear it and confront it in a blog debate so that we can see what your thinking is in invading this game and see what might be done about it. And what we see only confirms our worst suspicions: you are not to be trusted, your judgement is suspect, you are broken people, you have no right to rule our world.

    Your idea that it is not possible to run a crusade like this in RL is completely ignorant. Of course it is, and people do. And once they focus on this game and others, believe me, you will be hearing from them.

    Silliest of all is the claim by the Canadians that the FBI and the Congress “can’t get them”. They take things too literally. First of all, it is in fact possible actually for the U.S. to get very cranky about pornography distributed across frontiers, and we’ve seen them do things like that in the past, including with gay magazines, etc. There are groups who will fight this in the name of free speech, and I would support them, but when it comes to an online game, teenagers, etc. the authorities may take a different view, and I might take a different view along with them. And the point about the “FBI and Congress” is to mean “the authorities” who are of course going to be differently constructed in every state, but that’s a general point, and to obsess about the literal FBI not overreaching to Canada is to miss the point. Maybe Irwin Cotler and John Ashcroft are worlds apart on these issues but I would think even in Canada, the prospect of a burgeoning online game (this isn’t one) with hundreds of thousands of kids are being turned on to sado-masochism would make even some liberal Canadian parliamentarians feel as if they might have to take action. This is a hypothetical discussion about the RL consequences of virtual worlds, whichis why it is interesting. If you can only narrowly construe it is only about what some RL crusader might do to you personally to stop your fun, then you don’t get it. I’m not Miss Crumplebottom. If that’s all this debate is about, it’s not interesting. And I can see that it is not possible for you to rise above your own narrow parochial concerns and look at the larger issue of how virtual worlds should be constructed, and how the RL should impact them.

    Can hundreds and thousands of practitioners of BDSM invade a teen-rated game, set up shop, parade around, bring in recruits, and hook people up to RL sex clubs using URLs on their profile? Well, surely I’m not the only on in this twittering world, in this wasteland, who thinks this is cause for concern. So far, Maxis/EA, not seeing the forest for the trees, evidently thinks it is OK. “It’s just a game”. Well, Uri, if it is “just a game,” how come you had to sic the RL Free Press on an adolescent? And why was the horror of that 17-going-on-18 griefer cyber prostitute enough to bestir your indignation and journalistic juices, but the exposure of thousands of kids to the enticements of BDSM in the game not of concern, because they are “your friends”. Huh? What’s up with that????

    Toy is only referring to her character as a third person? Well, I am *so relieved* it’s only a charade, a dress-up for her. Except…it isn’t. She has told us time and again that this is what she does *IRL*.

  31. Catseye

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Ah poor Dyerbrook… I really wish the stratics article was still opened I would love to ask them if they found it Repulsive for everyone or just for them.. after all I find boiled Okra repulsive..

    I find it funny that you are tolerant in real yet not in game.. there is no Real BDSM activity in game it is just typed text.. a story line that is played by adults.. there is no tie up interaction.. there is no spanking interaction etc… so your stance on BDSM is real life not game…

    and I am wondering why you do not start a campaign against the “BDSM” shop next to your school.. this is itself is an admission that exposure to the BDSM Shop does not introduce it to the childern.. maybe your kid’s teachers are stopping by there on their way home to increase their wardrobe? I know in my son’s school they have condom dispensers.. since it is a elementry school I can only assume it is for the teachers not the students..

    In Closing Dyer yes I agree that BDSM is not for everyone.. many are like you are talking blind assuming that you have the answers to a lifestyle that you have no idea about… this is our problem with you.. this is what makes you in our eyes closed minded and hypocritical.. like the others on the Stratics thread we find your ideas and beliefs to be repulsive.. this is our right as well.. yes you are being labeled.. but remember who placed the first label Dyer.. how can you sit there and say we are what we are yet not accept that we say what we think you are?

    Do not state BDSM is evil my friend.. narrow it down should be easy for you.. state Teens in BDSM is wrong.. you will find we agree with you hence the age limits on our lots… I have read each and every one of your posts and I have yet to see anything why it is wrong in game w/o you falling back on an out of game reason. Are our posts in game adult in nature? is the language offensive? do we curse? do we use the “profanity” words for cyber in public? I have yet to see them in a BDSM lot.. but I have in a vanilla lot and even with a 14 year old in the lot… when I informed the roomie that there was a 14 year old in the lot I get a “so?” as a reply…

    So why do you think I hang out in BDSM lots? one I enjoy politeness.. I dislike swearing.. I enjoy an intelligent conversation.. and it seems that the BDSM lots are the only ones I can find these in..

    ********Back to the topic*********

    Lady J one thing that I saw ommitted from your article was that there is no way to actually police this from Maxis side.. it would still be left to the Players to police themselves so why even attempt the futile? I have yet to see a 15 year old with their own CC they all use mommies and daddies CC so they would be listed as 30+ and would be allowed to be in an adult server.. and since it would still be billed to TSO..

    Sounds good on paper but unfortunally will not wash in pratice.. also again it will only affect the Honest kids.. when asked we accept their answer as truth after all there is no way to prove it is there? course we also watch the way they behanve on the lot and boot if we have any doubts… so yes we Kick the ones under 18 mentality no matter what their age is psychially.. course I just do not allow public sceneing in my house so I do not care about the age of those on my lot.. I am like Dyer’s BDSM shop near his school.. it is on the door but you wont get the answers other than look it up.. ask your parents etc..

  32. Lady Julianna

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Dyer, you keep talking about someone linking to a real life sex club website on their profile. I don’t believe you. Name a name. Who has done this? Name just one, or shut up already.

  33. Dyerbrook

    Feb 1st, 2004

    OK, Catseye, here is your dream, a detailed answer from me, not because your tiny mind is worth debating, but for the sake of the 6000 visitors:

    Re: “you are saying that each and everyone that plays BDSM in game is evil so I am assuming your little mind is thinking that all BDSM involves a teenager in a roleplay setting?”

    Well, Catholics and the Christian culture at large do separate the sin from the sinner. Yes, BDSM is evil because it glorifies violence, slavery, and making sexual dress-up and charades the center of existence and entertainment. Those who practice it aren’t inherently evil, because there is always still hope of salvation for them. They might turn from their ways and see the light at any moment, especially if we debate the premises on which their world is based vigorously.

    No, I don’t have a little mind, Catseye, unlike you, and you’ve revealed your tiny cranial capacity by attributing to me the idea that all BDSM involves teenagers. So let’s go over it again, this time using words of less syllables. 1) BDSM is in the game with impunity, i.e. without punishment from Maxis/EA; 2) Teenagers are in the game because it is a teen-rated game. Even very young kids are in the game, with and without parental permission; 3) BDSM does not stay on their lot with the “you must be 21″ sign painted on it. If they did, we would not have this discussion. Instead, they roam all over the game, to every top 100 lot, and hang out their shingles to attract recruits, new members. They are actively trolling for sexual and fantasy partners in this manner. 4) Teenagers can easily lie about their ages, fake up an adult Sim, and go on the “over 21″ lots. They can also just sit on a skilling lot minding their own business and have a dom in the BDSM lifestyle with a walking billboard on himself come and sit down and chat them up. Therefore, teenagers — and just as important, adults who have not given their consent!!!!! — are exposed to BDSMers trolling for sexual and fantasy partners in the game. Was there anything too complicated about this? I realize there are nuances. I doesn’t say, Catseye, that every BDSM encounter is with children. Indeed, BDSM ostensibly — supposedly — tries to keep out under 21 from their lots. But I’m here to say that they can’t do that (just like THEY say that Maxis can’t keep out under 21 from this putative — possible — adult server). I’m here to say that children *are exposed*. So deal with it.I’m saying, therefore, teens are exposed to hardcore practitioners of a sub-culture in this game. I spelled out the definitions of all the big words here, Catseye. Can you grasp these distinctions now?

    “hmm ok lets do it let’s give the world an insight of the Dyerism utopia I am taking it real life for that is where he has the problem since there can be no slavery.. pregancy.. STD in game..”

    First of all, enthralling someone in a BDSM fantasy, luring them night after night back to the game to spend hours licking their boots, might not be “real” but it is enslavement, and it is of concern. That is, it is taking advantage of someone’s naivety, weakness, or confusion to put them in an unbalanced relationship of power where they are subordinated, and spending a great deal of their waking life either thinking about this or playing it on line. It’s not slavery like Sudan or Uganda, but it’s still enthralling.

    As for pregnancy and STD, well, the virus of bad thinking and enslaving ideologies can be even worse than the physical viruses of the world cured by various medicines. Where is the medicine that can cure a teenager who refers to themself as a toy, in the third person? I ask you that.

    And many of these BDSM lots have URLs or Real Sim info that hooks up to real life sex clubs and scenes, where these things do become a reality. In RL, at the school, at the mall, at home, most teens won’t be exposed to BDSM. They will be in this game, without the consent of the adults in their lives. If you think they are already spoiled and seen it all and beyond hope, well then you are all even more cynical than I thought, and deserving of even greater scorn. What I would hope to do is to appeal to some kind of shared value here, that children are, and should stay, innocent until they are of age.

    Re: “1) No more edcuation of Safe sex it could be taught to a 13 year old who is about to give a blow job to a boy on the school bus”

    This is an anecdote of yours from some tabloid or something but most kids going to school in America are not getting blow jobs on the bus in the morning. Of course there should be safe sex tips given in the schools. But there should also be families who set their own norms. It’s hard to tell what sex education policies in public schools have to do with this game, except to ask if you think it would be appropriate, for our kids to play this game right from their sex-ed classes, so they can get a virtual education before they have to go out and get a real one? Is that your point? I’m sure Maxis would love to work with the public school system to create school-based versions of this game, and Lady Julianna can help them with the skins designs for the leather set.

    Re: 2) Everyone will be shipped to a country/state where only their religion is being taught as right after all if we do not belive it we are Evil this makes it easier..

    Huh? What’s this about? Why would wishing to restrain the manfestations of hardcore BDSM in a game for teens, and question it as a basis for civilization in general, lead to a program to ship everyone to monotheistic states like Iran? Your little mind seems to have erupted into a spasm because I called something evil, because I made a judgement, because I appealed to some shared cultural norm dating back 2000 years. You are merely reaching for MTV and a class in political correctness from your local high school. Determing good and evil isn’t my special provinence, despite your cartoonish portrayal of me, but a shared norm created over centuries. We’re not talking about 70 years of wicca here, or 40 years of the sexual revolution from the 1960s, but something grander. If it is opaque — not clear– to you, then we have no basis for dialogue. Go back to your Sony walkman, then.

    Re: “3)There will be no games after all that is the cause of all the evil in the world (yes no games after all cards are used to gamble.. Monolopy will have to go as well since Money is the root of all evil)”

    Again, you’re mixing up my remarks about certain specific things with some muddled amalgam (mixture) in your brain of some cultural referents. Was it Baptists who don’t allow cardplaying? Some Baptists don’t, I guess. Well, I’m not a Baptist, and most Christians in the U.S. allow card-playing. Are games the cause of evil in the world? No, the people playing them are, Catseye. See above. Money isn’t the root of all evil, but those who greedily seek it, and so on. Games and money can work for good or evil in a society, be innocuous and benign or even beneficial, or be destructive and evil. So try to make these distinctions. We’re talking about what reasonable restraints a civilized, Judaeo-Christian nation, with firm protection of freedom of speech and separation of church and state, might reasonably wish to place on virtual worlds. IF you answer is: “NONE” Then I think we’ll see the demise of these games faster than you think.

    Re: “4)All people who sin will be put to death so god can judge them instead of some insane man like Dyerbrook or like the two judges who said that the parents could not speak another language to their own childern..”

    Another muddle of things half-heard on TV or read in the Internet. Where is it said that people who sin must be put to death? In the Taliban’s book? Not in my book, and not in the understanding of the Bible that is the working assumption of our country and others from which people dialup to TSO. There is still a distinction between sin and crime, thank God, we live in Iran or Afghanistan. Any community will want to put some reasonable restraints on virtual worlds once they see that they rapidly become cesspools of mafias, prostitution, and BDSM. Sorry, but that’s the case. We are just ahead of the curve on this discussion.

    Re: kids who can’t hear a different language from their parents.Well, let’s get the citation on that landmark case, Catseye. As a bilingual, I speak two languages with my child and others in my household, so what’s your point here? Different states and schools have different policies on bilingualism. Are you saying that a judge has overreached into the privacy of a home and commandeered what language a parent can speak to a child? Let’s see the cite on that. And let’s look at what remedies are already being used (in terms of press coverage and legal appeals) if indeed such an overreaching judge is found in the land, which is of course outside the scope of our issues here on this blog discussing TSO.

    Re: “5)Abortion will also be outlawed no matter if the child is made in Rape incest hate instead of love this will of course make the child unloved but hey they would be alive..”

    Um..what has this got to do with anything? I guess the idea is that if I find something offensive about violent sex, in a game with teens and adults who have not consented to it, by some lock-step notion of cluster-thinking, my view would also be that abortion should be outlawed? But that’s just silly. Abortion is the law of the land, with certain restrictions, i.e. gestational age. Who is opposing that? Maybe a personal or religious choice might be at stake (obviously my own mother didn’t have an abortion when she might better have when she was pregnant with me) but what of it? I happen to believe in RL that abortion is a personal choice matter, and the law of the land allows it. It isn’t my religion’s choice or my own personal choice for a family, but I don’t impose it on others. It is a right, under the law on the land. So get over yourself, Catseye.

    Re: “6)Chatolicism would be outlawed due to the Priests and the altar boys”

    Indeed, we might call our religion “chaoticism” these days as you have humorously but unconsciously mispelled it, but it still works pretty good for a lot of people, who prefer it to others, as is their right. I wouldn’t outlaw my own religion, nor anyone else’s. Freedom of religion is the law of the land. I’m not advocating that it be changed, I’m doing something smaller-bored than that, Catseye, I’m asking that BDSM be put on an adult server, or that failing that, the BDSM crowd be more discreet in this game with teens and non-consenting adults. I don’t think Catholicism should be outlawed because of pedophile priests, but I imagine we will see further reforms, and who knows, perhaps something like an American Catholic Church some day that tolerates gays and women priests and so on, like the Episcopalians. Meanwhile, if you don’t like these religions, you have your pick of many others under our Constitution, so once again, get over yourself, and don’t hysterically ascribe to me some RL or virtual desire to ban religions, punish people, ban abortion, etc. etc. as if I was an incarnation of that book about the dystopia by the Canadian author Margaret Atwood (where women are kept as slaves to have babies, etc.) I am not. I merely asking whether BDSM should be imposed on teens and non-consulting adults. That’s what we have in this game.

    Re: 7)Pentecostal faith will be outlawed as well since Oral Robert’s claim that God told him he was going to die and Mr. Roberts was afraid to face his God so how can what he was taught or teaching be truth?

    This is apparently a muddled bid to try to slam Christianity as a civilizing and beneficial force because of some TV preacher. Huh? Whatever good or bad Oral Roberts has done is a subject for a blog on religions. This is a blog about Alphaville. In another thread, we might return to my critique of wicca, but it certainly doesn’t undermine the Constitutional standard of freedom of religion and belief, and the right of wicca to exist.

    8)The Word Cult would be re defined the following is the dictionary.com ..
    cult
    n.

    “a) A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
    b) The followers of such a religion or sect.
    2 A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
    3 The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
    4 A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.”

    This is just something unintelligible. Um…the word cult should be redefined to suit me? Is that what you are implying? Hardly. I submit that elements of BDSM in this game are a cult, right under this Websterian definition. I’ve made my arguments. Disagree or not, but do not claim I’m the Red Queen saying black is white. I’m merely saying that black is black.

    a) A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
    b) The followers of such a religion or sect.
    2 A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
    3 The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
    4 A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

    5
    a) Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
    b) The object of such devotion.
    6) An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

    in the current definitation 1-4 would not fit 5a would not fit for I have not met anyone who is obessed with BDSM other than Dyerism… there is no object named BDSM so can’t be 5b

    hmm 6 nope it is not secret look it up on the Internet..

    where was I?”

    No. 5 actually fits quite well, because of this faddish devotion to the principle of “anything goes” and “freedom is slavery” and “violence is love”. No. 6 is the easiest fit, since BDSM, wicca and other ideas here (paganism) do claim to have a special, secret, arcane knowledge that outsiders cannot understand unless they are indoctrinated. I rest my case on that one. Parts of these definitions fit, parts don’t. Doesn’t distract from my very necessary effort of raising the alarm about cults in this game, when I see the parade of characters on this blog especially.

    RE: “9) Jimmy swagart (need I say more.. paying for sex making inquiries of having sex with a 7 year old girl yet he still is allowed to preach the word of god? my goodness)”

    Um…what’s this about again? Let me try to guess. An effort to pick out something ugly about the Christian faith which is not typical, and which any Christian true to his faith would condemn, and use it to slur not only the Christian religion, but the entire Judaeo-Christian civilization and its ideals? But how could the sins or even crimes of one man be used to tar an entire belief system? And how does that subtract from the point that teens and non-consenting adults should not have to have BDSM in their face?

    One thing I notice about all of you. You all find this Gorean stuff a bit too far out there, you don’t practice it yourself. You privately debate it among yourselves. Goreans don’t ascribe to consent as you do…etc. But you’ll be damned if you will “let a wedge be driven” in your community, hmm?

    Well that’s the difference between your proto-totalitarian movement and my Judaeo-Christian civilization with its liberal values. We can look at figures like Oral Roberts or Jimmy Swaggert or a criminal who blows up an abortion clinic and say, “That’s wrong. You can’t do that. That’s not right. It’s not Christian.”

    Yet you are UNABLE AND UNWILLING to do this about ANY SINGLE FEATURE OF BDSM, although there are many, many, MANY dubious and unsettling features of BDSM. You are unable to say that maybe there are limits, and maybe some things aren’t appropriate in a game for teens, maybe there should be some discretion. It’s extraordinary. Welcome to the world’s latest totalitarians, energized and galvanized by our electronic, virtual world…

    “I think that is enough this round.. all returns to parents taking time out and talking to their Kids discussing what ever your child wants to talk about after all the Bible even mentions who sired who and we place this book in our 7 and 8 year olds hands if not younger..”

    Most 7 and 8 year olds cannot understand the language of the Bible, and a child’s version is put in their hands. Just because the Bible talks about harlots and even just plain siring of babies doesn’t mean that it’s OK for children to play a realistic game where teens interact with sado-masochists. Try to grasp the different issues of magnitude and scale here.

    “Romance Novles have some very steamy passages in them as well and yes I have “borrowed” some back when I was cybering…”

    “Back when I was cybering.” Ah, now you are a man, and have left the ways of a child behind you. Good for you. See above where I explain the difference between reading fiction, where the characters can’t talk back, and this game, where they can.

    “You want to keep your kids from Sex.. take away the TV take away the Radio take away the news papers lock them in a small room with no windows and then MAYBE they will not be exposed to Sex.. Violence.. Crime until you let them out… but that is slavery no?”

    Far from “keeping kids away” from sex I think it should be explained frankly and sensitively to them, as they grow up, as age appropriate, and as they ask questions. I don’t think they should be watching the Playboy channel and Robin Byrd at midight. Does that make me some kind of prude and jailer of all religions and beliefs different than mine? Of course not. It makes me a concerned parent not eager to overexpose my kid to the seamy side of life.

    Dyer stick to game or real do not mix them most of us have intelligence to draw the line between them you time after time prove your lines are blurred you need help … I don’t let the kids in my house watch police shows where everyone is killing each other, either. They watch the Disney Channel and Nickolodeon, but I try to steer them to books and games as well so they have a balanced life, and have them play outside.Well, there’s no point in discussing this with you, because you aren’t the result of good parenting, but every parent’s nightmare. Anything goes, and this is the result.

  34. Dyerbrook

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Re: “Dyer, you keep talking about someone linking to a real life sex club website on their profile. I don’t believe you. Name a name. Who has done this? Name just one, or shut up already.

    Before we present a list of names like the House Un-American Activities Committee, can we get a read-out from you, yes or no, as to whether you think it would be wrong for a player to list a URL on his profile that hooked up to his RL web page in RL, with an e-mail to contact him with in RL? Let’s not fudge here. Let’s here from you whether you say whether any connections to sexual pick-ups outside the game are right or wrong, let’s focus on the question. Don’t say, “Connections to fantasy websites outside the game without my actual name are OK”. Try to stick to the issue at hand: URLs that take players out of the game, and continue a relationship with another player outside the game.

  35. Lady Julianna

    Feb 1st, 2004

    You cannot mean my site can you Dyer? Real life sex club? Show me on my site where it has a club meeting date or place, or a phone number to call, or even an email address to contact.

    Just more twisting and lying. God, you are so pathetic and desperate.

  36. Lady Julianna

    Feb 1st, 2004

    That would be off topic and you don’t deserve any further answers that you could twist and turn. Just an evasion tactic and a poor one.

    Couldn’t name one, not even just one, could you… These Urls to real life sex clubs that you speak of don’t exist. Just another product of your imagination trotted out for us to buy as truth.

  37. TSKELLI

    Feb 1st, 2004

    “People who play online games are still a relatively small sub-set of the general population.”

    And so why the shrill attack? If we are nothing more than a molecule in the ocean of online gaming, why are you so flipping agitated about such a non-entity as us?

    “this game of somehow suspecting me of a RL revulsion to BDSM is beside the point — it may or may not be true, but since this is a discussion among avatars and people with “handles” or pseudonyms about a game, and the in-game presence of BDSM, it seems worth having on its own terms.”

    No, Dyerbrook, it is about discussing the root of your issue here. The root of it is in RL — both where you have learned your prejudice and where you would like to exercise it but can’t. You have said yourself that your main issue was the issue of spillover between the game and RL, so RL is very relevant to the discussion even by your own admission.

    “I asked “Because some adults think they can spend their lives playing dress-up.” I might add “and this it’s OK to force it on children, and the non-consenting general public.”“

    So the store should be closed then, I take it, per Dyerbrook? Why not petition the borough president to rezone the area? Can’t win that fight.? Well, then, I can always go and badger the few offensive molecules in TSO to get out my frustrations, can’t I?

    “The crusade is not about the revulsion of BDSM, the crusade is about compelling you to make arguments in defense of yourself, and seeing if you can meet the challenge of your critics. I see that you cannot.”

    How so? I have not seen winning arguments presented by you yet, Dyerbrook.

    “You can’t distract from your own choice to use violence as the core of your sexual experience, romance, and mental gaming, and then take it away from these other people. Why is your violence purified and reified, and their violence is merely sordid and degenerate?”

    Because of the matter of consent. You disagree with that, I know, from other threads, but you are legally wrong, Dyerbrook. There is a huge legal difference between consensual BDSM and criminal or tortious assault — the “violence” that can take place as a part of BDSM is neither a crime nor a tort because it is consensual. You don’t care about this distinction, but the law does. Sorry about that.

    “It is a seamless continuum in our society, it is ALL disturbing and problematic, and your pathetic bid to carve out a special, protected place for your own violent games on this continuum is easily exposed. Violence is violence. It belongs to the world of instinctual beasts, not to the world of civilized men and women. End of story.”

    And here is the RL crusader again, frustrated because he can’t win the crusade in RL either with the zoning board or with the courts, and so it’s time to go bash the molecular disturbance in TSO again.

    “Your idea that it is not possible to run a crusade like this in RL is completely ignorant. Of course it is, and people do. And once they focus on this game and others, believe me, you will be hearing from them.”

    Ah, yep, just like they were able to shut down AOL because of AOL’s chat rooms, right? Huh? What happens in there is far more involved than what happens in TSO. Sure there are parental controls but they are as effective as what TSO has – ie, it depends on the parent to use them, together with other prudent ways of monitoring what their kids are doing online. I honestly doubt that any questioning of this will go any further than it did with AOL. Sure, you can try, Dyerbrook, but most people aren’t any more interested in your agenda than they are in shutting down AOL or its chatrooms. Yawn.

    “but when it comes to an online game, teenagers, etc. the authorities may take a different view, and I might take a different view along with them.”

    Doubtful. See the AOL example above. What has been done about that? Nada, rien. I don’t think you will find an audience for your tirade any more than you will find an audience that suggests shutting down online pornography, chat sites and the like — people know they are there and that is that. You have to take your own precautions with what your own kids are doing in light of all of the nonsense on the internet, and you are braindead if you think otherwise — I know that’s what I do with my own kids, Dyerbrook.

  38. Catseye

    Feb 1st, 2004

    No Dyer my points I was making about the religious aspects was that one incident does not label the WHOLE group..

    see anyone can make statments generally and it does not make them true of course unlike you I did name names.. and posted examples..

    As for the tabloid ~smiles~ well I do not see it as such but I believe what I read there.. it is a world wide publication.. found in I would guess in over 50% of the world’s homes though that is just my guess I am sure I am too high in that number… they just focus on the sexual aspect of injustice in the world … among other things .. yes they are in Playboy and I quoted word for word…

    if you think it is ok for a judge to tell a Hispanic man he cant speak spanish to his daughter.. then friend you have more issues that need help with other than a bunch of words being typed back and forth in a game..

    there are a few more articles in that mag I would share as well but I find them to revolting :)

  39. TSKELLI

    Feb 1st, 2004

    “Well, Catholics and the Christian culture at large do separate the sin from the sinner. Yes, BDSM is evil because it glorifies violence, slavery, and making sexual dress-up and charades the center of existence and entertainment. Those who practice it aren’t inherently evil, because there is always still hope of salvation for them. They might turn from their ways and see the light at any moment, especially if we debate the premises on which their world is based vigorously.”

    Ah, Catholic are we? Interesting. This one used to be a CCD teacher before other responsibilities required me to give that up, Dyerbrook! Needless to say BDSM didn’t come up there, LOL!

    Here is where you misunderstand. There are, of course, many different kinds of BDSM out there. The kinds that I have been involved with do no glorify violence or slavery, or pain per se — if anything, in most cases pain is a tool. But in any case, these things are not glorified, it is the exchange of power between two persons that is the focus. As for your sideways comment about sexual dress-up and charades being the center of existence, I don’t believe I have ever met someone in RL who had those as the center of their existence …. I have met a few who have it featuring prominently in their sexual lives to some degree or other. What is wrong with that? Nothing!

    “First of all, enthralling someone in a BDSM fantasy, luring them night after night back to the game to spend hours licking their boots, might not be “real” but it is enslavement, and it is of concern. That is, it is taking advantage of someone’s naivety, weakness, or confusion to put them in an unbalanced relationship of power where they are subordinated, and spending a great deal of their waking life either thinking about this or playing it on line. It’s not slavery like Sudan or Uganda, but it’s still enthralling.”

    But Dyerbrook if we are talking about two consenting adults what is the problem? If someone starts to date a new lover, that person is also luring them in, taking up their mind’s attention and the like, and it may not always be the healthiest situation … but it isn’t wrong. There isn’t anything at all wrong about this between two consenting adults. If anything it is possible that more adults are exposed to BDSM in TSO because it is a relatively safe environment in which they can explore something they may never have had the courage to do so in RL … but obviously you hate that result. Lo and behold, it may be that more people in RL are interested in BDSM and related activities, and simply seek it out in a safe environment like TSO at first, and then decide to incorporate some of that into their own lives (or not). What is the problem with that, if we are dealing, again, with two consenting adults?

    “so they can get a virtual education before they have to go out and get a real one?”

    But if you are really worried about this, why not shut down AOL as well?

    “Any community will want to put some reasonable restraints on virtual worlds once they see that they rapidly become cesspools of mafias, prostitution, and BDSM. Sorry, but that’s the case. We are just ahead of the curve on this discussion.”

    I really doubt this, Dyerbrook. The internet is full of it already, the real sort, not the pixelated sort on TSO. Prostitution? Rife on the internet, it’s like a phonebook for prostitutes. Anyone doing anything about that? NO. Of course, then again, the prostitutes advertise in the flipping yellow pages, LOL. Anyone do anything about that? No. Everyone knows that the internet is rife with porn — people do not like that, but is anyone shutting down the porn sites en masse, even though they are easily accessible to kids whose parents are foolish enough to monitor their internet use loosely? NO. When viewed against this background, TSO is so tame as to be uninteresting. The most that would ever possibly come out of this publicity, if you want to call it that, would be a reexamination of how online games are rated, and that may be appropriate (an “OL” rating may be appropriate, as I have noted elsewhere). But beyond that what happens in TSO is tame in the brutal world of the internet, Dyerbrook, and if noone is marching on Capitol Hill to shut down all the porn sites and prostitute directories that are easily accessible on the internet, you can rest assured that they will not do so in the name of a relatively poorly-subscribed game. Heck, AOL is huge, has many vile sex chatrooms, and yet noone is shutting them down. Get some perspective on reality.

    “One thing I notice about all of you. You all find this Gorean stuff a bit too far out there, you don’t practice it yourself. You privately debate it among yourselves. Goreans don’t ascribe to consent as you do…etc. But you’ll be damned if you will “let a wedge be driven” in your community, hmm?”

    Well, you won’t succeed. You (well, not you personally, LOL, but the attitude you are espousing) are a more important threat, Dyerbrook. Your narrowmindedness is a threat to us all, not just BDSM folks who like to play this in the context of TSO. The good news is that, as was the case with AOL, this crusade of your will ultimately fail.

  40. Lady Julianna

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Dyer, it is ludicrous that you should accuse others of not being able to make an argument. Coming from you, that is laughable.

    Your arguments are based on lies and misrepresentations of data. Your arguments are built on sand with no support or firm foundation.

    Let’s recap some of your lies..

    1. I have never tagged anyone.

    2. This thread on TSO zone supports me (silly argument about the word “number”)–and only 2/17 people agreed with you.

    3. All BDSM people recruit.

    4. BDSM people role play on vanilla properties.

    5. BDSM people put URLs to real life sex clubs in their profiles and property descriptions.

    Without proof, naming of names, I will not listen to you or believe any of the above.

  41. Catseye

    Feb 1st, 2004

    ~shakes his head~

    So BDSM people should stay off skill lots… and Blacks should drink from fountains marked as Blacks..

    what is the difference?

  42. Katt

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Meh. Dyer acts like God exists. What a pathetic being.

  43. Dyerbrook

    Feb 1st, 2004

    1. Dyerbrook has never tagged anyone. Lord Cheetah tagged you. He was shared with another player who tagged you. End of story. Get over yourself.
    2. The thread is not on TsoZone, but on the Stratics board. The thread has more than 17 entries. It is not “about” me. It is about BDSM in general. *A number* express revulsion, doubts, and criticism of BDSM, and that *number* is more than 2. I’ve posted most of that discussion elsehwere here on this blog, go and reread it, and tell me how you can come away saying “only 2″ are uncritical and unquestioning of BDSM. That’s the point. They support my viewpoint (not literally because I’m not in that discussion, duh) that BDSM must be challenged, and that it is not something left without criticism. Go ahead. Go to Stratics and put up a poll. See what you get. See how long you last.
    3. Who said all BDSM recruit? Some are very quiet about what they do, in fact, some of the quietest are the ones with the most lively links to real-life sex scenes so let’s respect their privacy, hmmm? Some recruit. That’s my point.
    4. BDSM do role-play on vanilla properties. What, we need to post a bunch of screenshots? This isn’t disputed by anybody but you, right now. Sheesh.
    5. BDSM put Rl Urls on their profiles. Well, let’st start with *YOU*. Sure looks like the photo of a RL person, not a Sim on your site! With information about how to get in touch with you IRL. And let’s look at your links page! There’s a link to wizdomme.com and then from there, we are brought right into a live, RL video chat room with real dommes in them. Gee, that was easy to prove! Sheesh. Oh, you take no responsibility for serving as a gateway for teens from the game who come to your site, and then link to a real life domme acting out on a RL video in a chat room? And setting up RL encounters? Come on. You’re stupider than I thought you were!

    Or read steel-door.com in which we learn that horrors, the goal of BDSM is actually to completely replace sex with the power exchange! It’s not about the sex, it’s about shriveling sex. Horrors! This is progress???

    Or let’s go to http://www.frugaldomme.com/frugal.htm where we can find a list of groups to actually attend “events” and scenes in the Bay Area, etc. etc.

    These are the sex clubs. They are a click away. You lure people into them. Shame on you.

  44. Dyerbrook

    Feb 1st, 2004

    There are also BDSMers with their profiles on RealSims and they adverise it, and on Lord Cougar’s lot, home of the 42 points about how to become a BDSMer, there are billboards with all the leading BDSM websites out there, like Castle Realms, etc.

  45. Lady Julianna

    Feb 1st, 2004

    My website has links to others to give credit for information that I have taken from that site. That does not make my site a sex club.

    Pretty weak Dyer. Move to Lamesville.

  46. Dyerbrook

    Feb 1st, 2004

    Your links deliver teens from the game directly into the arms of video dommes in RL. So please move to Lameville yourself. BTW, I am noticing that some of the denizens of the dark world have scrubbed their URLs about their Real Life scening from the profiles after people complained to MOMI. Interesting. So complaints work?

  47. Catseye

    Feb 2nd, 2004

    Funny Dyer I do not have links I do not post URLS yet I am BDSM so again you lie.. BDSM do not scene on Vanilla lots.. again you take the wording role-play to include scening when it doesn’t hmm another lie,, Oh and how nice of you to admit that you were in violation of the TOS by sharing an account with another person not in your household after all you agreed to not share your password with another user.. or wait was the one holding the account in violation by sharing that information with you?

    hehe gee cant play by the rules Dyer? what is wrong with you? hmm I have no links.. I do not scene with teenagers.. I do not talk in the third person.. I do not use the A/all speech.. I do not go to other skill lots anymore and when I did I was just me though I had the BDSM tag in my profile still.. hmm Guess I am not evil after all though I am BDSM hmm would that not make your statement a lie as well?

    Woot this small minded individual so to speak is the thorn in Dyer’s side.. pointing out to him time and time again like the voice of a consquience when Dyerism starts to stray into the gray areas of idioticy..

    hmm no comment on the BDSM and Black post above> Oh I know you know there is no difference so you can not comment on it… hmm you think toy is strange because she speaks third person speech yet you tremble at her words for they carry power that you can not deflect.. and I see Kelli is also pinning you to the wall.. you fear her words as well because they rock the foundation your beliefs are built upon.. ~smiles~ then there is just me the voice in your ear..

    What happened to Coco? I wish to hear her thoughts on this latest tangent of Dyerism? maybe she can explain to us why you continue your tilting of the BDSM windmills after all she has known you longer…

    hmm maybe you are right I should go back to Klingon sex instead of BDSM but I wanted to mellow my methods after all good Klingon Sex always requires a trip to the med bay..

  48. AngryPornClerk

    Feb 2nd, 2004

    Toy:

    Please kill yourself. You are so stupid it makes my head throb.

    Lady J:

    Sorry you are a pathetic nobody who thinks vinyl corsets and stilleto heels will make you more interesting. In reality, BSDM freaks are nothing but ugly trolls who need something to fill the time in between their next dungeons and dragons session and their late shift at Dairy Queen. Get a fucking life and please don’t have any children.

    Catseye:

    See advice to Toy.

  49. Catseye

    Feb 2nd, 2004

    ~chuckles~ head throbbing has been linked to an out of shape mind Porn :)

  50. Lady Julianna

    Feb 2nd, 2004

    Thank you so much for coming in and making an intelligent contribution. :P

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