Essay: The ESRB game rating system is broken
by Alphaville Herald on 03/02/04 at 7:19 pm
By J
I recently wrote an article for the Alphaville Herald on how I believed that Electronic Arts had misled the Electronic Software Rating Board (ESRB), as well as consumers and parents alike, about the rating of their popular MMORPG, The Sims Online. My criticism was met with a variety of comments from readers of the weblog where the article was posted. Some agreed with my position that EA has not given an accurate account of The Sims Online when it was rated. Others believed that the ESRB is at fault and that the game rating system is ineffective when it comes to MMORPGs. In any case, most who posted comments agreed that something about the process needs to change. After considering these comments and after studying the situation carefully, I believe that both EA and the ESRB need to reconsider their actions when it comes to rating online roleplaying games. In this essay, however, I would like to focus on the ESRB and explain the flaws of the current system. Further, I will make some suggestions for how it could be improved.
Static and Dynamic Game Environments
To begin with, I would like to explain how the dynamic environment of an MMORPG, such as The Sims Online, is substantially different from the static environment of many other games. The classic game Tetris is a good example of a static environment. A player’s interaction with the game is limited by the game’s programming. For instance, a player cannot create a new piece that was not originally programmed into the game or create things less perceptible like atmosphere and culture. This type of game is simple in the sense that the structure and potential outcomes of the game are fixed. This is even consistent with more elaborate games, like Doom. A Doom player is still limited by programming to where he or she can go and the other characters that he or she interacts with.
MMORPGs, like The Sims Online, are dynamic game environments. They are highly complex because they involve other real people who interact with each other. The complexity is even further increased because the characters are not fixed, making the game highly unpredictable. In The Sims Online for instance, the game programming does not determine what type of property a player chooses to create (they may choose to make their property a house for friends, a pet store or cyber-brothel). MMORPGs adopt dynamic qualities that static games cannot. They adopt cultures, governments, personalities, friendships and rivalries, just to name a few documented examples. These features are impossible to predict by the game publisher. They are also impossible to observe at any one point because they are always evolving and changing. Therefore, an MMORPG can never have its contents evaluated with the expectation that this evaluation will remain the same at any later period in time.
The ESRB Rating System
Next, I would like to examine the rating process of the Electronic Software Rating Board. The council uses what it calls “the rating pool” as their experts for judging games. The rating pool is a group of freelance individuals that ESRB hires and trains in the art of rating games. They are expected to have no ties with the video game industry and their identity should remain anonymous.
The rating process is conducted before the game is released and distributed. The game publisher, like Electronic Arts in the case of The Sims Online, must file a questionnaire and submit a video of the game. The questionnaire and video footage must provide “an accurate representation of the context and product as a whole.” The videotape must show “the most extreme content that can be achieved” in the game. Three members of the rating pool then review the game and they must come to a consensus on what the game should be rated. If they cannot come to a consensus, more reviewers may be utilized.
The ESRB Rating Process and Game Environments
The ESRB rating system has been designed for a static environment, in which I believe it does an efficient job of rating games. With simple games, such as Tetris or Doom, a questionnaire can determine the fixed content of the game. Video taped footage can meanwhile show the context and product as a whole in a way that is most likely sufficient for raters. These two criteria may be enough for static game environments and may not require the reviewers to directly interact with the game at all. However, this process poses a variety of problems when it comes to evaluating MMORPGs.
As I described dynamic environments, they are unpredictable. For instance how does a game publisher answer the question, “what is the extreme content of a game when you do not know what content will be achieved?” Electronic Arts cannot begin to assume what the most extreme content will be due to the fact that they cannot predetermine the actions of future players. They do not know who will purchase the game or how they will interact with other players. As soon as the game is on a store shelf, it is out of the publisher’s direct control.
I would like to use The Sims Online as a detailed example of this phenomenon. In The Sims Online, players are allowed to construct their own avatar, or graphic representation of themselves in the game. In some ways, the character that one chooses is fixed. There are a specific number of different body styles and a preprogrammed number of heads. If just matching a body to a head was the limit to the game, Electronic Arts could provide a mathematical figure for the most extreme content, i.e. there could only be one girl with red curly hair and a blue dress. But online roleplaying games are not structure to fit inside the contents of preprogrammed limitations. Online roleplaying games facilitate interactions between minds. Even though there are a preprogrammed number of different body styles for characters in The Sims Online, two people can take the exact same girl with red curly hair and blue dress, but make them radically different because one interacts as a pet storeowner and the other interacts as a prostitute. Electronic Arts cannot program the way that these characters interact (in the sense of their attitudes, morals, beliefs, etc.) because these interactions transcend the borders of the game.
The comments of some people on the Alphaville Herald weblog have argued that it is not that rating of the game that is at issue, but rather it is the players that should be rated. This is correct, but also misguided. True, the players are the problem with the game. They are the unknown variable that causes the game to diverge from its intended programmed structure. However, The Sims Online still facilitates the interactions of these players. Electronic Arts has created a game with enough freedom to introduce new ideas and goals. Electronic Arts needs to be aware that interactions from outside the borders of the game will enter and likewise the rating of the game needs to take this freedom into account.
Three Flaws of the Rating Process
I believe that there are three important flaws to the ESRB rating system when it comes to online roleplaying games. These flaws are the fundamental criteria that ESRB uses: the rating pool, the questionnaire and the video footage. I will explain why these criteria are inadequate and how they may provide an inaccurate rating of the game or allow the publisher to mislead the rating board.
An online roleplaying game draws participants from all over the world and all walks of life. They are all real people who have different moral backgrounds, different lifestyles, different codes of law and an immeasurable number of other variables that they will bring to the game. If the rating pool were to give an accurate account of how this dynamic game should be rated, the pool would have to be a cross section of the people who play it.
The ESRB draws freelance individuals from the Manhattan, New York area. They must have a flexible schedule that allows them to come to the ESRB office 1-4 times per month. I would like to argue that unless there are additional measures to control the demographics of the raters, this will not yield a statistically sound cross-section of the population. The fact that all of these people have flexible, freelance schedules and live in the Manhattan area cuts down on the diversity of the pool. Further, if the rating is intended to inform not just the players, but also parents, this rating pool should consist of a large portion of parents. However, the demands of a flexible, freelance schedule in the Manhattan area does not seem very accommodating to draw a large amount of parents.
It would be ineffective to try to understand the content of dynamic a game by using a standardized, static questionnaire. ESRB says “publishers fill out a detailed questionnaire explaining exactly what’s in the game.” By this method, the questionnaire can only explain what is in the game before other players join. Since the game does not actually begin until the game is distributed and players have entered, this is an insufficient process. This may even allow the publisher to downplay what the presupposed extreme content may be and therefore mislead the ESRB and the consumer.
Finally, the ESRB system for rating online roleplaying games is flawed because game raters do not actually play the game, but rather they watch a video produced by the game publisher. This may be effective for simple games where the publisher can show the limited number of moves or levels and show the final goal, but complex online roleplaying games cannot be treated this way. The publisher on an online roleplaying game cannot show video footage of things like culture, attitude, friendships, enemies or love. They cannot show how these things evolve over time and what course they may take. It is impossible give an accurate account of an online roleplaying game’s content without personally interacting in the game.
Current Ineffective Strategies
In the Alphaville Herald weblog, there was a strong opinion of many players that the current ratings of online roleplaying games are ineffective. The ESRB is aware that dynamic roleplaying games will evolve with the players that join and they have adopted a disclaimer to try and explain this. As ESRB says, “Additionally, online games that include user-generated content (e.g., chat, maps, skins) carry the notice ‘Game Experience May Change During Online Play’ to warn consumers that content created by players of the game has not been rated by the ESRB.” The mere statement “Game experience may change during online play” is not explanatory of what may occur in online roleplaying game.
In The Sims Online, for instance, the most extreme thing you can do in the static state of the game is to “Kiss hotly” or lay in a “love bed.” These things may not be very extreme by ESRB standards and may be suitable for minor. However, the dynamic environment of the game has given rise to more provocative content. For instance, widespread pornographic and sexually deviant behavior have taken root and allowed children as young as 13 to participate in and be exposed to it. The extreme elements of the dynamic game are much different from the extreme elements of the static game, but both exist within the game.
In my opinion and the opinion of many players, there should be a new, more effective strategy for explaining that these games may take new directions that are extremely different from what the static environment of the game was intended for. For instance, a new rating of “ORPG” or Online Roleplaying Game may stand by itself or accompany the traditional age rating of the ESRB. A more detailed disclaimer should be utilized to provide better information to parents and players. For instance, “Game experience can and may change drastically over time. Strong violent and sexual themes may develop throughout the game. Player assumes all risk as to what they are exposed too.”
Suggestions for an improved rating system
There is definitely a need for a revised system of rating online roleplaying games. Even if some changes are put into place, they will need to be open to more improvement in the future as the online roleplaying game industry develops. In any case, I would like to conclude by making some suggestions of ways in which the ESRB can improve this system.
First of all, a new rating for online roleplaying games should be added, as I detailed in the previous section. It should have a better explanation of how these online roleplaying games may change and the kind of material that may develop (i.e. violent, sexual, pornographic, cultic, etc.). It should also list the age of the audience for which the game is best suited.
Second, game raters should actually play the game. Dynamic game environments cannot accurately be viewed be external means. An even more efficient system would be to hire and train raters who have played the game for significant period of time where they have become accustomed to the game and immersed in its culture.
My third suggestion is that more people to rate online roleplaying games. The rating pool should also come from a more diverse background. A cross-section of the rating pool should reflect a cross-section of the people that will actually play the game. The intended audience of the rating should also comprise a large portion of the pool, i.e. teenagers and parents. This would provide a broader review from wider range of opinions.
The content of the online roleplaying game should be audited annually or semi-annually by the ESRB. This would allow the game rating to evolve along with the ways in which the game changes. This would keep publishers accountable for their game content beyond the original programming. Finally, the ESRB should reissue the game rating if the original rating has been violated. Publishers should be forced to change their programming or advertising if a rating change is necessary.
Conclusion
The software industry is continually evolving and the ESRB needs to follow suit. The online roleplaying game segment is rapidly growing and therefore it will continue to affect more and more people. Substantial changes need to take place if these games are to be accurately represented and played by minors.
Hi
Feb 3rd, 2004
yawn…………Mad boring.
toy
Feb 3rd, 2004
as many boards that try to rate anything there seems to be way to many loopholes in an attempt to please everyone. toy certainly doesnt have an answer but something should be done
Perhaps a group of parents on the board would help instead of the ones presently assinged to the board.
toy
Lady Julianna
Feb 3rd, 2004
Uri, I was fascinated and impressed.
Now that is what I expected of you. I will re-read that a couple of times before responding.
Bowing to the good Doctor.
urizenus
Feb 3rd, 2004
I didn’t write that. J is an undergraduate at a Baptist College!
ajdown@jp
Feb 4th, 2004
The problem is not in the system, ESRB or Maxis – the real difficulty is that whatever you do, whatever safeguards you put in place, whatever checks there are, some parasite will find a way to get round it, and abuse the game. A tiny minority will give all of us a bad name, and the media always focus on the negative side. Biscuits (sorry cookies) being 90% fat free is fine, but that means they are 10% fat.
Remember that the ‘problems’ that have been highlited in TSO are not part of the game’s design but a small portion of players creatively using the tools to perform distasteful activities – I’m not digging at any one group here, but there is a lot of positive clean fun to be had if you go looking for it, and if you go looking for trouble you’ll find that too.
aj
RB
Feb 4th, 2004
Am in full agreement with “J” here. 110% on his superbly constructed and well thought out article.
The ESRB is a dinosaur like the RIAA and not moving with the times to suit the ever changing world we live in.
My god these are true fact points that nobody ever notices (or wants to notice) :
“Therefore, an MMORPG can never have its contents evaluated with the expectation that this evaluation will remain the same at any later period in time.”
“what is the extreme content of a game when you do not know what content will be achieved?”
Again “J” restates what ive said before. what the game is made of is only half the content, The rest is what goes on there after release and in the future. Anything good can and will be turned bad.
“Since the game does not actually begin until the game is distributed and players have entered, this is an insufficient process. This may even allow the publisher to downplay what the presupposed extreme content may be and therefore mislead the ESRB and the consumer.”
I think this type of misleading is exactly what was done here.
“Game experience may change during online play”
It is indeed a ‘mere statement’ , a hard to notice small print one at that. It is less than this, it is a BS cop-out on the part of the ratings board and the company. It’s prevents liabilities, Nothing more. Tis useless.
“The content of the online roleplaying game should be audited annually or semi-annually by the ESRB.”
This is highly needed. TSO was a poor 1/4 or less finished product when it was released initially, and hardly anyone was in it. Suitable for 13-14yr olds? yes back then. Suitable now? No, unless adquete warnings are given with a changed rating and it is left to parental (ones who care or bother) descression. Thus we can see the decision to never review the rating no matter what happens is a pure money grab by EA.
This is the very very first screwup that was made long long ago, first in line of the long line of bad moves by the TSO team. which is proably 4 overworked blokes and a 24/7 coffee machine because of much more important projects going on *cough* sims 2 *cough* . TSO is clearly not being given the support it needs to thrive.
And yes Lady, Uri only posts the articles for people, he does’nt write them unless you see no name up top. But in this case you do, “By J” . =)
Blame: EA 65% ESRB 35% in my view.
That’s RB’s 2 cents on this issue.
- RB
TSKELLI
Feb 4th, 2004
My box has “mature sexual themes” written on it next to the “T” rating. Don’t you think that this is an adequate warning?
Kelli
Lady Julianna
Feb 4th, 2004
Whoever J is, he or she is very bright and articulate. Dyer, take note, this is what a well laid out rational argument looks like.
I am with Kelli. The warning on the box should be sufficient.
Maxis could not have been completely in the dark or should have had some idea about what to expect when they made the game. After all, they did give us some fetish outfits to wear in the game. I am speaking of the leather pants and harness that the men wear, the black leather outfit with high collar for women, and the black and red latex dress for women. There is also the harem outfit.
When you look at that, you could argue that those of us wishing to role play Dominance/submission were considered and provided for in the game design because they provided these costumes in the black costume trunk for us.
Lady Julianna
Feb 4th, 2004
There is a statement in the essay that I take issue with.
“True, the players are the problem with the game. They are the unknown variable that causes the game to diverge from its intended programmed structure.”
The players are the problem? Eliminate the players and the game is good? It would have no purpose without the players, no reason to be.
The players are customers. Game designers/owners should pay heed to us and what we want.
I hope that out there some game designer is paying attention to us. There is a market here, but the question is how big, for a type of adult game. There are several Gorean role play chat sites out there. Why not make a Gorean role play based game?
It could provide a few monsters to kill to make some money and build combat skills. It could also bring in the social aspect of TSO, providing social centres and social interactions like serve, spank, kneel, and even the Gorean positions could be used as animated interactions: Nadu, Bara, Belly, Submit, Obedience, etc.
I can see a game goal and structure… One would choose to be free or slave, or start out as free. The goal could be to be most Dominant for some.. dominance points being awarded for number of slaves owned, structures owned, combat missions won, etc. If you have more dominance points than another player, you could initiate struggle or battle and if you win you could enslave the other player. It could be possible to win freedom by rising up or running away… Slave points could be awarded too.. for those who wish to be slaves with rewards and options, perhaps more dance animations, or serve animations.
I hope someone is listening. TSO is good, but it is not the perfect game for us. Sociolotron has potential, but the graphics and user interface are brutal.
There is a consumer group just waiting for this.
Change your way of thinking. Game players are not problems.. we are consumers. Give us what we want and cash in. Don’t complain about us or restrict us or try to drive us out.
TSO did anticipate people playing in a sexual manner… love beds, love tubs, kissing interactions, and our fetish wear.. all given to us by Maxis. They also anticipated people having conflict within the game.. make enemy, rip out heart, all the mean interactions.
I would disagree and say that we are playing in the way that the game designers intended us to. We have developed a community, we are “someone else” and have freed ourselves to role play. It has always been about the meta-game for Maxis. I would go further and argue that we are the most successful group in the game, building a community where most know each other, and I don’t know of any other group or community as successful at this as we are.
We are not the problem. We are the life blood of the game, and we have so many accounts in the game that if driven out through harassment or just by disgusting us with constant attacks by self-proclaimed messiahs, the game could fail and be discontinued. It would be a harsh financial blow to EA on a game that is still unprofitable for them.
Get rid of us folks and you may get rid of the game. Would that please you?
I congratulate you again J on a very well written essay.
toy
Feb 4th, 2004
toy feels it is still up to the parents to monitor any childs activities on the internet…. stop trying to point fingers and blame others…….. dont expect others to be a baby sitter…….
toy
CherryBomb
Feb 4th, 2004
Congrats on an excellent article, J, and thanks for the explanation of how a game gets rated. It seems to me it would be impossible to come up with a meaningful rating for the actual software of a MMOG. It would be like assigning a rating to the telephone, which can be used for both ordering Mother’s Day flowers and for bomb threats.
The only rating that would be meaningful would be a rating of how the game is managed while it is running, and even that seems kinda shaky. i.e., there is absolutely no way for a company to devote the kind of resources it would take to police all player actions that could be considered harmful to minors.
Squirrel
Feb 4th, 2004
Contentions? First, I still hold that TSO doesn’t even qualify as a game, therefore the whole applicability of the ESRB is misplaced. Secondly, assuming the we need to view it as a game, of ocurse we can never place an accurate assesment of the suitability of said game. Movies and the MPAA rating suffer the same slings, in different cultures an countries what passes as R here is X there and PG some where else.The ESRB are supposed to be reasonable guidelines, much like the film ratings system, they are not a complete system. They are a tool intended to help parents determine what is or is not suitable for their children. Thay are note, as many would like to see it, parents themselvs.
But even older online games have encountered this problem. How many Starcraft matches, or Counter-Strike mission have degenerated into vile obscenity and name-calling. You’re right to say that the players are the problem, to an extent.
Thirdly, you don’t think that Manhattan can establish a proper cross-section of society?!? Are you nuts, Manhattan practically IS society. There isn’t a more suitable, workable locale for this work.
I concurr that the ESRB board should include some disclaimer that “players will be participating in an online community and that like AOL chat rooms or any other VR community gathering the ESRB and EA cannot accurately predict what the contents of commentary or avatar action may be. Thanks a bunch, now try and be a good fucking parent.”
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 4th, 2004
Perhaps the criteria for Rating a Dynamic, or Interctive game scenario should include the game Rating Pool (Perhaps 3 to 7 indeviduals,[odd numbers to avoid tie votes]) being present in the game Environment during Beta Testing for a period of Approximatly 30 days. This would give them the Clearest possible picture of Game Dynamic and Participant Interaction.
It would also allow them to determine if indeed the point Squirrel makes is true. Does it Qualify as a Game, or is it just a highly Graphic chat room?
J, I Must say, this is a little better thought out, and layed out than your earlier thread. The Inflamitory wording of the First, Tantamount to an Accusation of Fraud against EA, was bound to cause peoples emotions to run high, and not guarentee you the Best Possible feedback. However, you have done Marvelously with the Feedback you did receive.
Maria.
Catseye
Feb 4th, 2004
Very well written J… and I do not find any flaws in the essay ~applauds~
The statement of the players being the problem Lady J is true.. because the players use what is given to them to use.. whether to just sit and chat.. go on a guild hunt… raid the next town etc.. we control our own destiny…
I think there would be no need for a panel to rate an online Mass player game.. just give it a label Adult contant may occur… no need to watch the video no need to pay anyone.. and no need to adjust it later… then just a basic NR rating on the box…
just like the movie ratings how many times have you heard of a movie getting an R rating then asking how to get it to a pg-13.. cutting the scene or scenes then printing it for the added income?
urizenus
Feb 4th, 2004
There are MMORPGs where content is very tightly controlled. Take Disney’s ToonTown. There there is a fixed inventory of things you can say (you select them from a menu), and special permissions have to be set for each person you talk to. I don’t have it in front of me, but I assume it is rated E, as it should be. I guess my point is that ratings for online r/p games should at least distinguish games that are tightly controlled like ToonTown and those that are not. One can imagine a game that really was suitable for teens — although it would require some labor-intensive human monitoring.
urizenus
Feb 4th, 2004
What I meant was that if you want to talk to someone using more than the fixed menu of expressions, permissions must be set appropriately.
Lady Julianna
Feb 4th, 2004
Yes any teen game would have to be monitored intensively. There is no group that is more likely to try to thwart controls and inject adult content than teens.
Dyerbrook
Feb 4th, 2004
I think this is a well-reasoned article but further evidence that the social structure of games and their surrounding communities cannot be left merely to game geeks, who tend to be math-heavy programmers, Chomskyian linguists, economists, etc., or at least you would think so from this blog and its links. J makes it sound as if there is this impossibly open-ended, incredibly free system that is just *so* hard to control and *totally* unpredictable. Horse hockey. If that is the case, then why have I spent yet another excruciatingly dull evening around the punch bowl in a trivia game? Human nature, as wild and wacky as it is, is actually fairly predictable and has been analyzed down through the ages by people like Plato and Shakespeare and St. Augustine, and there are actually some home truths that have been discovered long before “seamy” players like Evangeline clicked their mouses with their grubby fingers and vented their impoverished inner worlds to us all online.
It is not just a matter of the girl with the blue dress and the purple hair or the endless combinations of her purple dress or blue hair, but the basic laws of human behavior in groups. A telephone can be used for flowers or bombs or obscene calls, but when I’m on the telephone, nobody can press an ignore button or a complaint button to the company about my speech, so that kind of common-carrier analogy just doesn’t fly. There are rules in this world, actually elaborate rules, it is just that they are not reasonably enforced.
Community management is an art and a skill, and not one that EA is good at, as we’ve seen time and again. There are actually consultants now in community management that help Internet companies, including game companies, structure these things better. It isn’t rocket science to figure out that you allow a game field with 13 year olds and 53-year-olds that you will have pedophiles enter this world. You can make some basic protections about this that actually go beyond the default child protection system in the game, which is based on the premise that players themselves will press the ignore or the complaint buttons, or that caring adults in the game will do that form them. They could actually have more spot checks by staff and more investigation of patterns that develop in the game. If Tigger can pick up the phone and call J. Soprano and tell him gently but firmly that his game-playing style was “too mature,” what, she couldn’t exercize her civic virtues a bit more and call Moe Wallace of the Sim Shadow Government or Adilah of the Gorean slave owners? Come on.
I’m touched that J is big-hearted enough to say that freelancing game geeks in Manhattan may not be such a great sample for the ratings process(one pictures girls with purple mohawks and nose rings stumbling out of different beds after their rave parties to go off to their ESRB consulting gigs). Of course having real parents and real cross-section of demographics would be great, but if there are budget issues or laziness, even just a basic grid of what to look for could be drawn up *just with common sense* and not any special focus group process.
Go over to There and see that they have something a bit more robust than a TOS and frankly a bit more clear, which is “BEHAVIOR GUIDELINES” (http://www.there.com/behavior.html)
They are pretty straightforward. Note to Lady J: under these guidelines, the BDSM crowd would not be able to be so licentious in their antics).
J is right that content changes, although problematic content doesn’t change an awful lot from those basic topics that your mother always told you never to raise at the dinner table: politics, race, sex, money, etc. Again, it’s not rocket science. Where are the potential flashpoints and what will be the players’ remedies? They can build this in without pretending that this is a mathematical problem about infinite combinations. It’s not. It’s about human relations, communities, some basic rules of behavior and how to evaluate their functioning. It’s not programming, it’s not linguistics, it’s psychology — but not even. It’s common sense.
The angst I always feel in the TSO zone is the total lack of adequate remedies and lack of common sense. There isn’t free speech on the Stratics boards. Free speech in the game, even allowing for the PC TOS, is also a problem because so often griefers trip up players by trying to catch them on the technicality of a swear word. (I once called one of the Wallace family horrors who tried to hotkiss me and married me when my Sim was stuck “a sick fuck” and got MOMI petition-warned by Moe Wallace’s action within seconds of making the comment. IOW, I can’t say that someone is a sick fuck when they *are* a sick fuck.)
EA did something very craven and greedy. They slapped the Teen rating on this game, tongue in cheek, because they had a game they wanted to sell by Christmas and didn’t want to lose the children’s audience.
Now they have something else on their hands, and they have to think how to do it. Other developers (like the one who called into the interview with Castronova on NPR) will do a better job and attract away their customers if they don’t. Ratings are not the only way to protect kids. And let’s not yammer on again about how parents should be the first line of defense, when we have duplicitious companies selling the game under a T banner.
What the real line of defense is, is self-governance. And here, it is impossible to have a discussion on this because of the lack of shared values and like-mindedness and basic tools of reasoned communication. It’s a terrible shame that both Ludlow and Castronova, who bill themselves as glamorous Ludologists in this fabulously groovy field, don’t want to be confused with the facts. The facts are, Ted, that there aren’t any virtual governments in this game. If you thought that the Sim Shadow Government is a government, well, I guess you thought Che Guevara in the Sierra Maestra and Leonid Brezhnev and the Politburo were “governments”, too. There is nothing self-organized about a few Bolsheviks taking over the telegraph station (the radios) and starting a revolutionary terrorist movement, unless by self-governance you mean clandestine revolutionary activity, and I think surely you couldn’t.
The neighborhoods are possibly the closest thing to self-governance and deserve more study, but really, AV Herald has shown precious little interest in any kind of real group dynamics in the game that aren’t titillating and suitable for the tabloid press, so it’s hard to know how serious you are about this.
Feedback is the key to keeping any system open. ESRB has no feedback. Sure, you can fill out a CGI form on their webpage and join the queue to be read by some “desk monkey” as Squirrel contemptuously called his confreres who already have jobs in these game companies, unlike himself, who is still studying so he can *get* a job in the game company. But that isn’t really a good feedback system.
For ratings to be meaningful in a dynamic game, they have to be dynamic, too. They have to have a feedback mechanism — a real one — and a review process. There has to be a way to petition them, given the power they have. They have to be willing to revisit games they reviewed before they launched, and this has to be incorporated into their very rating process.
toy
Feb 4th, 2004
more of dyers name calling sheesh. he should give it up, but then again he hasnt the common curtisy to answer this girls many questions. he just keeps spouting his name calling and never being responsible for his own misguided lies of the past.. toy awaits answers dyer, not excuses and name calling
toy
urizenus
Feb 4th, 2004
Ok, Ok, let’s not bait D in this thread. It’s been almost civil so far. Let’s call it a neutral zone. ‘kay Toy?
Catseye
Feb 4th, 2004
hmm interesting point on the toon town.. but would that classify as a roleplaying game? yes limiting the chat to a menu of words would be a way to control the input of players.. but I think a game in that format would not be that profitable for the company…
Why even think about the revisitation of a game after it’s release? in an open end game just give it the role-play rating and dont worry about it.. heck even in UO and EQ there is sexual innedou’s galore.. there is cybering as well.. some in tells group others in public out of the way places.. so it is safe to assume that these would rank MA ratings as well since there is no control of what a person is doing with another person..
I think that would suffice for everyone.. but I still wonder how many parents would look at the rating.. still it is the parents responsibility on the bottom line…
TSKELLI
Feb 5th, 2004
“There are rules in this world, actually elaborate rules, it is just that they are not reasonably enforced.”
I would not expect that they ever will be in a virtual world. There are likely in excess of a hundred thousand messages typed each day in TSO – how is anyone supposed to monitor all of these? That expectation itself is not reasonable. What you could reasonably expect would be that the CSRs would be responsive to complaints – aren’t they, though? How would you propose that the CSRs monitor a hundred thousand messages in any reasonable fashion?
“They could actually have more spot checks by staff and more investigation of patterns that develop in the game.”
I doubt you would be satisfied with this, because it would still inevitably miss most of the nonsense – there is simply no easy way to track a hundred thousand notes a day.
“If Tigger can pick up the phone and call J. Soprano and tell him gently but firmly that his game-playing style was “too mature,” what, she couldn’t exercize her civic virtues a bit more and call Moe Wallace of the Sim Shadow Government or Adilah of the Gorean slave owners? Come on.”
Simple: they react to complaints. When complaints are raised, they address them. The basic premise is that they don’t have the resources to monitor 100k messages a day and that is very understandable.
“Go over to There and see that they have something a bit more robust than a TOS and frankly a bit more clear, which is “BEHAVIOR GUIDELINES” (http://www.there.com/behavior.html)
They are pretty straightforward. Note to Lady J: under these guidelines, the BDSM crowd would not be able to be so licentious in their antics).”
A few notable differences: (1) There has these guidelines but this one has
NEVER seen them enforced in any significant way in There; (2) There DOES feature active BDSM clubs, including Gorean ones, Escort Services auctions and the like and I don’t see anyone raising issues with this; (3) There is not geography-based to any significant degree, so there are no real “neighborhoods” of any kind, unlike TSO, which means that the community is geographically invisible; and (4) unlike TSO there is no real “game” to There, so like-minded folks tend to stick together with other like-minded folks – ie, there is no incentive to go elsewhere to “skill”, for example. I have seen none of the self-righteous indignation in There at all about any of this – nothing close to the whining we see in TSO.
“It’s about human relations, communities, some basic rules of behavior and how to evaluate their functioning. It’s not programming, it’s not linguistics, it’s psychology — but not even. It’s common sense.”
But if Maxis wanted these off the table, so to speak, why provide fetish gear, dungeon toys and the like? Remember, unlike Second Life and, to a much lesser extent, There, TSO doesn’t have player-developed content – rather, Maxis PROVIDES these things for use by the players. Pretty unrealistic to think that these are in the game and not be used in the game, it seems to me. I suppose you would advocate that they be removed from the game?
“For ratings to be meaningful in a dynamic game, they have to be dynamic, too. They have to have a feedback mechanism — a real one — and a review process. There has to be a way to petition them, given the power they have. They have to be willing to revisit games they reviewed before they launched, and this has to be incorporated into their very rating process.”
Practically, it won’t change the rating on the box. I would opt for something like “OL” as the rating – because I don’t think that the reality will be that gaming companies like Maxis and SOE will soon begin hiring hundreds more snoopers to police their virtual worlds – it doesn’t work from the p/l perspective.
Kelli
shane
Feb 5th, 2004
Long time reader, first time poster. For full disclosure: never played any Sims [always seemed patently inane], have played a bit of Jumpgate and some older MUDs, and learned about the AVH from the NYT. The first part my post is a bit off subject, but I get around to it at the end – I’ll try not to waste anymore of your time than necessary.
John Locke would post on this thread something like:
That which is static and repetitive is boring. That which is dynamic and random is confusing. In between lies art.
John A. Locke
Many of these threads are flaming streaks of ossified opinions, but through it all, it still seems like a microcosm and macrocosm of today’s world. And the inevitability of virtual worlds playing a more prominent role in our lives, whether gaming or work, seems clear. It would be foolish to underestimate/undervalue what Uri is doing, which is nothing more than the next logical step in the virtual world evolution. The best course of study for humankind IS humankind. Cheers Uri-dude.
I absolutely have enjoyed getting to know all the main players in this real life drama. I laugh, I empathize, I squirm, I doubt, I wonder, I agree, I disagree, I yawn and I learn. TSO seems like it has to be one of the most boring games ever invented, leaving Pong as glorious echo of a long since past golden age of gaming. But there is something here that is tangible and real.
I get all giddy when I see a Dyer post. If anything, he is always spoiling for a good fight and of course he gets easily goaded into bursting. But none could doubt the strengths of his convictions, nor anyone’s for that matter. All are different people, divided by sex, age, geography, education and upbringing. It’s a glorious cross section if not the most demographically representative of the modern world.
And as uninformed as it may sound, my read is that Evangeline’s roll in the game was hilariously gorgeous [I’m guessing he’s not playing much anymore after he was outed – something which I don’t agree with – as much ‘grief’ he gave in the game, to bare his identity to the entire world seems wrong]. If he ‘tortured’ a few n00bies by making them offer up to a dead bird during the ‘reflection process’, gosh, how traumatizing can that really be, even to a 13 year old? How many 12 year olds started crying, turned off the computer, cancelled their subscriptions and ran to mommy? You could use one hand to count them all I imagine. And, let’s not miss the most important point – it’s funny. Very funny. The ability to laugh at oneself is a lesson that you don’t need to be 21 years old to learn.
My observations are these: This issue of TSO online being another possible avenue for paedophiles to gain access to children is relevant and has its place for discussion and community action. I don’t think anyone disagrees with this statement – it is how to go about it and the parameters that are at issue.
The other question about shielding children from conversations/topics that are woefully inappropriate for them to hear is also valid. But from the extremes of both sides answers come not.
We were all once cave people, huddled around fires, deciding to give up some of our absolute freedom to run amok amongst each other so that we could establish what is now civilisation/society thereby protecting ourselves from ourselves. What you are all doing now, along with whatever [in]action by EA/Maxis is doing, is an attempt to create this society. And that it is being so fervently fought over shows that the human animal is alive and well. And that you are all nerds!!
I salute you all and I will continue reading this blog for its entertainment and educational value. And heck, I’m even a bit tempted to go ahead and buy the game and join in the fun!
I leave y’all with some Bertie and Frank science. Peace out!
I think we ought always to entertain our opinions with some measure of doubt. I shouldn’t wish people dogmatically to believe any philosophy, not even mine.
Bertrand Russell
Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider.
Sir Francis Bacon
toy
Feb 5th, 2004
okay Uri, toy will control herself better
toy is finding it a good thread 
…….. goes back to reading 
toy
toy
Feb 5th, 2004
it seems to toy a lot of TSO problems stem from so many people changing chars almost weekly…. there seems to be no incentive, other than additional locks for skills, for aa person to have anything invested in a char. Then boredom sets in and people switch names and many switch names simply to cause trouble for others. toy had been thinking of this because there are no goals in TSO, lets face it one can have all the skills they need to make money, have some additional actions in a couple days…. then the boredom sets in once again and many think of new ways to amuse themselves so they change names and wreak havoc on others to relieve the boredom…..
toy got this train of thought from playing UO almost 4 years, hardly anyone in UO changes names and chars simply because it takes a lot longer to skill a good char, it took toy 7 months to make a 7 times Grand Master tamer/mage and girls other char was a miner/blacksmith, also taking a long time to GM…. but there was also much more to do in UO… there wasnt skill decay in UO but, there was a cap on total skill points that you could play, you had control of your skill there. toy just feels a lot of TSO’s problems stem from boredom setting in once a few skills are gained.
toy
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 5th, 2004
Before the Flaming war begins anew, i just wish to say something.
I read Dyerbrooks post from beginning to end,,,
Dyer, your structure of Arguement here is very much improved. Your points are Much more clear and linear in thought. Now if only you could avoid the use of terms like “Sick Fuck” I have always held that if one can only express ones thoughts using profanity or Epithets, then ones thoughts are not worth expressing.
On the whole, i was impressed, and i would welcome a little more of THIS sort of post rather than the more erratic ones in the past.
Now as to some of your points.
“J makes it sound as if there is this impossibly open-ended, incredibly free system that is just *so* hard to control and *totally* unpredictable. Horse hockey. If that is the case, then why have I spent yet another excruciatingly dull evening around the punch bowl in a trivia game? ”
For this one Dyer, i would only ask what you spent your evening LOOKING for? You chose to be by that punchbowl instead of being out (With or without an open mind) Seeking out new and different experiences. (And i don’t mean necessarily ones that would interest me.)I never fail to find something, or someone intersting or entertaining to enjoy for an evening.
“A telephone can be used for flowers or bombs or obscene calls, but when I’m on the telephone, nobody can press an ignore button or a complaint button to the company about my speech, so that kind of common-carrier analogy just doesn’t fly. ”
In this age of Modern Telecommunications, it is actually easier to deal with Nuicence phone calls than it is to get Maxis to deal with a Nuicence player. Callblock, Call Display, Hanging up, Hold Buttons, All can count easily as “Ignore” features, and the Phone company WILL take swift action against persistant nuicence callers. Federal Communications laws give them more than ample and effective tools to do so. All that is necessary is a complaint from a consumer, and the already available phone records. The Common Carrier Analogy has gained new wings.
“Community management is an art and a skill, and not one that EA is good at, as we’ve seen time and again. ”
I have to agree, but from this point on we differ on what sort of activity SHOULD be governed and why. But, This is really the whole point of this thread. DID Maxis FAIL in it’s responsibility to younger players by seeking a teen rating in a game with so much ADULT potential?
You Dyer,, I, and J all seem to agree that the Pool of judges for the rating system is both too small, and insufficiently diverse.
“J is right that content changes, although problematic content doesn’t change an awful lot from those basic topics that your mother always told you never to raise at the dinner table: politics, race, sex, money, etc. Again, it’s not rocket science. Where are the potential flashpoints and what will be the players’ remedies? ”
A large number of persons in this game are Over the age of 16,(And i choose to use this age because it seems to be when most of our strongest opinions are initially formed) and WISH to, when placed in a chat situation Talk on these very subjects. Unlike the model of conversation you illustrate, (What mother would allow at the dinner table)which is designed to stifle thought, and expression, the whole purpose of a chat like scenario is to ENCOURAGE people to discuss, discourse and debate. Rather than saying certain subjects should not be discussed, perhaps it would be “Common sense” if they were discussed while Keeping Roberts Rules Firmly in mind. Orderly and polite discussion where use of profanity and epithets is strongly discouraged. I don’t always have issue with what Dyer says, Only with how he Chooses to say it.
Regarding your problem with the Kissing griefer. Be Honest,, he got you mad and you lost control. My response to griefers is always the same. On my property, i simply say “Goodbye” nothing more. this is of course followed with Boot, Ban and Ignore. On other properties, i have found the ignore button to be quite sufficient. it effectively blocks all annoying interactions directed at me.
“What the real line of defense is, is self-governance. And here, it is impossible to have a discussion on this because of the lack of shared values and like-mindedness and basic tools of reasoned communication. ”
“The neighborhoods are possibly the closest thing to self-governance and deserve more study, ”
I would add, How many people in the United states Agree completely with thier Constitution? I know several points in it that generate very rabid debate. Self Government CAN work. As Lady Julianna points out, Ours is a very large community and we govern ourselves VERY effectively. Now, Ignoring completely what we do in our bedrooms (Not the issue here anyway) We have a community of well over a hundred homes, with three or four similar Affiliated neighborhoods. Self Governing with but a few tools, and very peaceful in the main. Our Rules,, Be Polite. Be Respectful. We have all agreed that we wish to be a community,, Anyone can do it. A Common thread, or point of interest,, something to Bind (No joke intended) a community together. From there, Policing is relatively easy We have our rules, Accepted standards of behaviour. If someone is causing a problem, one of the more well established members of the community will speak politely to them, Discuss community concerns. If it becomes a pattern of willful antagonism to the rest of the community, the offending person tends to find many doors closed and locked to him. Not all of course, but usually enough to let him know he is behaving in an unwelcome Manner.(And yes, people have been reintroduced to the community once they have mended their ways.) We have no leaders as such, No one is king or queen. We decided as we grew from three affiliated houses to what we are now, that we wanted to live together and cooperate.
“Feedback is the key to keeping any system open. ESRB has no feedback.”
Also a good point. (I would have left out the personal observation regarding squierrel, it isn’t germain to the issue and does nothing to support your point)
Just how do we, as consumers REALLY make our opinions regarding the accuracy of the ratings Known to, and felt by, the ESRB IF they choose not to hear us? Not only should a ratings system be a little more Binding on the indistry, and thorough in it’s scope it should itself have mechanisms making it Accountable to the consumers if it Fails to adequatly warn or caution (And i refer to cases such as Failing to rate a game for violence when Frequent use of firearms is common in the game. Not Niggling little points regarding Inferred or suggested behaviour.)
Dyer,, for once, I enjoyed listening to you, and discussing your points. More like this,, Less like the other.
Thank you.
Maria.
Dyerbrook
Feb 5th, 2004
Re: “How would you propose that the CSRs monitor a hundred thousand messages in any reasonable fashion?” from Tskelli
This is my point about game nerds and science/math nerdpacks trying to reflect on issues that in fact involve not math but common sense.
Maxis/EA/MOMI surely does *not* have to read 100,000 messages typed among players every day (although it would be no problem for them to put in a search engine that occasionally captured some words and phrases to see if there were patterns, a la NSA picking conversations out of the ether). All Maxis/MOMI has to do it glance at the top 100 lots in all the categories now and then, because that’s where there will tend to be lots that have traffic. Of course paedophiles can hide on residence lots that aren’t on the top 100 list, but the search engine for patterns of words that occasionally spot-checks doesn’t require some “desk monkey” reading serially through hundreds of thousands of posts. It just requires some reasonably intelligent person educated in the United States with native English language ability to look at the lots occasionally and the avatars on them in the top 100 lists where most of the game’s controversial action take place. 100 x 10 categories or however many categories there are is 1000, not 100,000 things to look at, and you can flip through them quickly. All of us do it. Many of these lots aren’t even on line for weeks at a time! So you narrow it down by half of more by just having to glance at the online, active lots! Even multiplying, say, 1000 by the number of worlds, given that some of the worlds are nearly dark now, you still have only about 5000 things to look at, and anyone playing for more than a week will figure out where the categories are that need a little more watching than others, duh.
Example: if you see a popular lot where the avatar has something like “1950s jazz” and “the Poseidon Adventure” as their favorite things, on a romance or coffee lot, and yet purports to be a 10 year old or an under 16 year old in their chat, and has sexual chat with other 10 year olds or 16 year olds, then perhaps this might warrant a second look. Is this an adult luring children to a lot to get them into sex conversations and possibly even RL meetings? It doesn’t take rocket science merely to do some spot checking *of lots* in the top 100 categories, and the way they are described, and the descriptions on the Sims. And after all, a good share of the complaints that come in are categorized already by the player. There are a sub-section of those thousands of complaint that say “lot description” and they can take a look at them. Flipping through even hundreds of them can’t take more than an hour a day. It really isn’t the mathematical, open-ended prospect that you seem to think it is.
I haven’t played There so I don’t know if there is any There There LOL but my point about that is that they do have something called “a behavior code” which then players can allude to. It’s not a perfect solution, but the behavior code, enforcing it, and spot-checking lots is a lot more than what Maxis/EA seems to do. If they do spot-check lots, then they get no value from it because they haven’t publicly told the community that in a sense, the sea of Sims has to be prepared for sudden inspections on demand, and not always by a player marked as a Maxis staff (they could come in incognito). By making an announcement like that, at least the company puts people on notice.
Re: “There is not geography-based to any significant degree, so there are no real “neighborhoods” of any kind, unlike TSO, which means that the community is geographically invisible.”
Well, that’s a very, very important difference. One of the ways that the BDSM crowd attracts recruits to their lifestyle and trolls for sexual and RP partners, real and virtual, is by consciously creating 60 plus houses to make a large, visible neighborhood in the map, with each house identifiable by that neighborhood, and invites people to visit, where they can easily see all the neighbors. It helps them immensely in their project, just as any neighborhood with more benign and seemly goals is helped in their project by having a visible neighborhood. Having neighborhoods and visibility works for good and evil. There could be a separate thread just on the question of whether this is a good idea, as we learned that other games randomly assign players to servers, and that way prevent the formation of pernicious gangs. Since they also thwart the formation of civic associations for the public weal, this needs further thought.
Maxis doesn’t need to have hundreds of snoopers. We don’t have assurances that they even have *one or two* which is really all it would take to glance through lots and avatars on the top 100 lots and make some spot-check visits. When a company tells the community that they have even one ombudsman, or even one watcher, believe me, they maximize the effect a hundredfold because there is no longer a sense of *impunity* that we now have.
And come on! Maxis is at the switchboard, at the console, able to watch the entire game, able to track each player’s invention of himself or herself, each players lies and subterfuges and secret Sims. *Aren’t they already watching?* (This is one of the reasons I don’t feel so comfortable using the game to cyber, because I can’t be sure some Maxis staffer isn’t giggling at me behind the console. I don’t view our IMs as truly private, because at any time, they can be viewed and accessed, and they are presumably stored. I have always had the sensation of Big Brother in this game from the get-go, especially when I saw how the large griefer movements worked the system to harass other people, by getting them petitioned.
*Do you mean to tell me they have not used that vantage point to peer into this game and watch it????* Come on! Indeed, I would think that the temptation would be enormous to some staffers to come into this world and make it more interesting or try to intervene in some secret way, perhaps unknown even to their own bosses. I suspect that does go on. So I would say, formalize it and institutionalize it, and assure the community that it watches for paedophile in this game that brings kids and adults together on love lots.
This game described in one of the interviews (the Palace?) had these figures calle “wizards” who were like monitors and advisers in the game. I was annoyed at that, it seemed like one more geek know-it-all intrusion against freedom and democracy. I’ve had some second thoughts about it, but I don’t know enough about the selection process for the “wizards” to understand whether they really are fair and democratic.
Dyerbrook
Feb 5th, 2004
Re: Maria. I’m sorry, but I can’t take your advice and tailor my posts to your liking in style or content because you aren’t my domme and you are not credible, either. Please, there is no consent from this adult, so stop trying to “control me”.
When I press “t” on my keyboard, “t” comes up. And just as surely, when I wrote “I spent another dull evening around the punch bowl doing trivia” I knew that the BDSM gotcha gang would come to tell me I wasn’t open-ended and wasn’t getting out much and wasn’t having the rich, enlightening experiences that could be had if only I made a dungeon lot and put a girl in a cage next to the bale of hay. So not even 24 hours passed, before “t” came up.
Duh, I have plenty of rich and enlightening and moving experiences in TSO, I get out a lot, I have lots of Sims, I go all over, I’m on most of the servers, blah blah blah. I’ve had a rich, meaningful, experience in TSO with valuable friendships without ever having to use a whip figuratively or pretend someone’s boot was on my neck. That’s not my point. What I was getting across is that for many people in the game, as I flit from lot to lot, as I visit lots as different Sims, or even if I just stay on my own lot and watch the flow of people coming in to play our “one slot but it’s a very lucky slot” game, I see that most people haven’t moved much beyond skilling, superficial chat about RL popular topics like Janet’s tit-illating display, and dumb trivia games that can engross you for an hour bu then, so did “who’s on the cow side” engross us for an hour on that boring car ride to Michigan….
Sometimes I feel like shouting, here we have this incredible experience, with people of all ages, walks of life, even countries, gathered around a pixelated punch bowl in ways they would never gather in real life, and yet nothing really meaningful, serious, enlightening or even very fun tends to happen. It can sometimes, but most of the time it does not. There are all sorts of reasons for this. One is the game’s exigencies — the Sim needs greening, a Sim sitting down drives you buggy with his constant squirming and leg-crossing, and to make the money to buy your food, you have to chalk on a board and do this idiotic victory dance every 20 minutes which is the single most irritating thing in this game IMHO. And so on. There are distractions, and the forced narrative of all the idiotic and hysterical fun mode of the Maxis/EA stuff constantly intrudes on my deeper and more serious narrative I wish to pursue. Has anyone noticed this? How will I have any rich and meaningful experience when there is always the possibility that I will pee myself and cry like a baby? These are the narrative constraints, almost invisible to us as we play, that constantly intrude on the possibility of another, freer and deeper narrative that players themselves could develop.
But my point about this isn’t that I have a dull inner or outer real or virtual life, but that there are constraints and limitations and dynamics I haven’t even figured out that must account for the fact that most people get bored silly in this game, and either shut it down, find a cyber bunny to retire with, or go out griefing. This is the human experiment that is worth watching in its actual details, and not these fake governments and dynamics that Castronova mistakenly believes go on in this game, and not the cyber brothels that Ludlow keeps telling the media about so slyly, even today, although Evangeline’s was closed a year ago and he would be hard-put to point to a single lot in the game today that has underage cyber prostitutes actively roping in adults and having cybersex with them. There are things to study in the game, but not if you come to it with prefabricated theories.
Some of the posters here are calling for a separate rating for online RP games that in itself signals that anything goes, anything is possible, God is dead, Dostoyevsky was right. Will a ratings board and the game companies essentially adopt this pubic posture? “We realize that our game that supposedly just has a lot of happy-go-lucky kid stuff in it can be used by dommes and doms to do radical hardcore BDSM scenes, but hey, we don’t program it that way, and it’s our customers who do that, and if anyone is offended, just press your complaint button and take a number.” That is what they are de facto saying today, but I doubt they will go on saying it, nor will other companies go on saying it as the virtual world universe expands and enriches.
BTW I’m not aware of any “dungeon toys” in this game. What, the jail cells? The bale of hay? Well, the bale of hay goes on a Wild West lot or in a barn with the pets or something. I don’t believe it was deliberately designed as a “dungeon toy”. Do you mean the cage with the bones in it? Well, from my perusal of BDSM lots, I don’t see them using it so much as I see it used by kids who have grotesquely recreated federal penitentaries and promise to perform death penalties for a fee to kill your Sims. The cruel play of BDSM is exercised mainly on the mind, and in speech, not with some physical toys or layout of the game. That’s why I worry about it and why I think it needs a challenge.
TSKELLI
Feb 5th, 2004
“All Maxis/MOMI has to do it glance at the top 100 lots in all the categories now and then, because that’s where there will tend to be lots that have traffic.”
This sounds easy to me. If it is so easy and takes, say 5 hours a day for one person, why do you think they haven’t done it? Not enoough complaints, perhaps? Have you discussed this kind of thing with anyone at Maxis?
“I haven’t played There so I don’t know if there is any There There LOL but my point about that is that they do have something called “a behavior code” which then players can allude to. It’s not a perfect solution, but the behavior code, enforcing it, and spot-checking lots is a lot more than what Maxis/EA seems to do.”
Just to be clear, there is no spot checking or enforcement activity of any kind in There. I have never heard stories about this happening, either. If anything, There admin does pretty much little or nothing in There, and much less than what you see in TSO. A critical difference, I think, may be demographic — There is really mostly folks in 20s and 30s. There isn’t enough gameyness to keep younger folks interested in the game, and so these kinds of issues just don’t seem to come up – at least not with any notoriety to them. Some people say TSO is like a big graphical chatroom, but those who say that have never spent much time in There, because that is what There is. Really, it is. And I think that attracts fewer youngsters.
“One of the ways that the BDSM crowd attracts recruits to their lifestyle”
Oh I disagree that we are interested in attracting “recruits”. The reason why people live in the same area is because they want to live around like-minded folks.
“There could be a separate thread just on the question of whether this is a good idea, as we learned that other games randomly assign players to servers, and that way prevent the formation of pernicious gangs. Since they also thwart the formation of civic associations for the public weal, this needs further thought.”
Second Life, unlike There, is geography and land-based – ie, you have your own plot of land (have to buy it first, often for real $$$) in a certain subdivision of the map known as a “sim”. The sims are connected together to form a larger landmass. And the sims are rated – either PG or Mature. Land values tend to be higher in the mature sims which reflects (1) the demographic of SL and (2) the relative scarcity of mature sims (prob only 30-35% of all sims). And people do tend to group together in Second Life as well, although it is more difficult because of the need to purchase land and the relative scarcity of land in SL. But the only real difference between PG sims and Mature sims is what you can build there (ie, in PG you can’t build casinos, strip joints, etc) and whether you can have your avatar parade around (even in the house) in the nude. Otherwise, anyone can travel anywhere, and Linden has made it pretty clear that all bets are off as to what happens, more or less, in the mature sims. In fact, there isn’t really much of an issue because Second Life, by its nature, attracts a much older demographic – there just isn’t really much there to keep the younger set interested in being there. The PG sims aren’t for younger SLers, but rather for older Slers of your demographic, Dyerbrook, who don’t want mature stuff in their neighborhood (NIMBYism). And, similar to There, there isn’t any significant monitoring by Linden – any action taken (and this is rare) is done as a result of specific complaints. So based on my experiences in SL and TSO, I don’t’ think that the issue is geography, or, rather, a geographically-based environment that allows people to choose where to live, but rather the demographic of the game, on the one hand, and the accessibility of the game on the other. TSO attracts a very broad age range – much broader than There or SL – and is very accessible (There is accessible, but Second Life is not really at all).
So I think the question really isn’t about the design of the game as such, but perhaps the broader question of the feasibility of trying to develop a game of this type to appeal to that broad of an age range, and how to go about doing that. Analogues to There or Second Life, while appropriate and interesting, are ultimately only of limited value for the issue of game design, because TSO is quite different in its demographic (and that was intentional, it seems to me).
Kelli
TSKELLI
Feb 5th, 2004
“Please, there is no consent from this adult, so stop trying to “control me”. “
After a civil discussion, this is disappointing. I think you have misread her post, Dyerbrook. Have you ever heard of the olive branch?
“are distractions, and the forced narrative of all the idiotic and hysterical fun mode of the Maxis/EA stuff constantly intrudes on my deeper and more serious narrative I wish to pursue. Has anyone noticed this? How will I have any rich and meaningful experience when there is always the possibility that I will pee myself and cry like a baby? These are the narrative constraints, almost invisible to us as we play, that constantly intrude on the possibility of another, freer and deeper narrative that players themselves could develop.”
There are two sides to this, and this is an area where, contrary to the post I just wrote, a comparison to other VRs bears some fruit. The one side is what you have written – all of this skilling and greening really gets in the way of extended, deeper interactions between people. Perhaps. There seem to be ways around this in the game, but there is at least some point to this. When you switch gears to a place like There, however, where there is no skilling, greening or the like and no forced incentive to set up your own place, you have a very different experience and one that is so structureless that you can easily lose people. There compensates for this by clubs and events – and that is really the focus of the game, it is an event-based environment rather than a place-based one – but the lack of structure can lead to a lack of continuity, a sense of pointlessness and a bordeom that can easily come from that. Second Life is yet again different in that while there isn’t any meaningful skilling or greening, the real activity in the game comes from creating and building … and this is very time-consuming, but at the cost of limited social interaction. My impression in SL is that people come, they build and they go. There isn’t much social interaction, and that makes it boring once you have built your place. I’m not sure that TSO’s model is all that bad by comparison – it is at least more balanced. But different approaches appeal to different people – it seems useful to examine how other VRs work, however, before reaching a broader conclusion on this kind of thing.
“That is what they are de facto saying today, but I doubt they will go on saying it, nor will other companies go on saying it as the virtual world universe expands and enriches.”
I really don’t know, Dyerbrook. Again, look at AOL – is anyone shutting them down, have they cleaned up their chatrooms? No, they simply put in place some parental controls, patted themselves on the back, and moved on. Parents seem to be clued-in to the idea that when their kids are on AOL, they need to be careful. Perhaps fewer parents are clued in to the idea that online games can present the same issues (and it isn’t just TSO, it is also in SWG and as others have noted EQ and elsewhere … anywhere you have a “chat” function), and my suggestion that an “OL” rating may be preferable is that this would at least give parents a heads-up as to the open-ended nature of this and that having their kids play this is much more like having them use AOL than it is having them play something on their PS2. And I think that message itself is helpful to parents.
Kelli
toy
Feb 5th, 2004
~finds it becoming harder to hold her tongue but will for another day~
toy
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 5th, 2004
Dyer,
Thank you for reading my post, but chere,, read ALL of it.
I beleive my quote was:
“For this one Dyer, i would only ask what you spent your evening LOOKING for? You chose to be by that punchbowl instead of being out (With or without an open mind) Seeking out new and different experiences. (And i don’t mean necessarily ones that would interest me.)I never fail to find something, or someone intersting or entertaining to enjoy for an evening.”
I did not at any time suggest that you seek out our kind of fun,or come to Our neighborhood. As a matter of fact, I specified that there is a world of experiences and people out there NOT connected to my sort of fun. And i never meant it to sound as though you have a Dull Inner life.(I won’t comment on your RL, i don’t know it, and won’t judge what i don’t know.)Only that you explore options. and if i misunderstood your intent in your punchbowl story, i Apologize.
Yes, this game has constraints in actions, as any game does. But that is the thing that defines the game area. I doubt programming is yet ready to give us UNLIMITED options as yet. and if it does get to a point where many more interactions could be added, Dyer, what sort of actions, interactions or play options would you like to see? I could think of a few (And no, they aren’t linked to my lifestyle either. Lol) Being able to lounge in a Bath Indefinatly for adding to comfort might be nice. How about a Massage? Many of the features of the Off line sims game would be well received ON line as well.(That is a whole other thread, but i really was expecting more rapid growth in the options as well.)
As for Domming you,, Nothing of the kind. I merely point out that, In your post, your ideas came through much more clearly without Histrionics or profanity. IF you continue in this fashion, you are more likely to be heard, Understood, and even Sympathized with.
Order, Reason, and courtesy are far more effective tools in getting ones points across, than any tantrums, or well stocked Dictionary of the vulgar tongue could possibly be.
I enjoy reasoned debate. Especially one where my opponent makes well founded arguements opposing my own. and,, as you can see, when you speak reasonably, you find support from the most unlikely sources. If you read my whole post, I mean REALLY read and absorbed it rather than dismissing it’s content due to the source, You would have seen that you and i Agree on many points regarding the ESRB and it’s effectiveness. (Or lack there of).
Just because we Disagree on several lifestyle outlooks, doesn’t mean we cannot agree whole heartedly on others. Far from Domming you, I am Inviting you to continue challenging me in the fashion you did above. it does you more credit, and you get your point across better.
Now, As to some of your points:
“Example: if you see a popular lot where the avatar has something like “1950s jazz” and “the Poseidon Adventure” as their favorite things, on a romance or coffee lot, and yet purports to be a 10 year old or an under 16 year old in their chat, and has sexual chat with other 10 year olds or 16 year olds, then perhaps this might warrant a second look. ”
Yes, as an extreme example. This would indeed be questionable BUT as anyone with experience in Pedophiles could probably tell you (I have known a few Therapists and Psychologists in my life), A Ped would go out of his way to AVOID anachronisms in his Bio or house description specificly because it would alienate the very youth he is trying to attract.
What you would probably be looking for MORE is the 14 year old who knows who Fibber McGee and Molly are. the 15 year old girl who knows just a little too much about Dell Shannon, Veronica Lake or Burtrillo.
Some will, as dyer points out, be dumb enough to advertise what they are,, the Dangerous ones are the ones who can disguise themselves.
“One is the game’s exigencies — the Sim needs greening, a Sim sitting down drives you buggy with his constant squirming and leg-crossing, and to make the money to buy your food, you have to chalk on a board and do this idiotic victory dance every 20 minutes which is the single most irritating thing in this game IMHO. And so on. There are distractions, ”
Yes Dyer,, true also, but if one removes all of this, don’t you just have Yahoo chat? You site the very aspects that set this game apart from a hundred other group chat rooms. They ALL have this Marvelous potential you speak of for interaction and discourse, but The things you have noted are the very features that MAKE TSO Different. and those other sites don’t cost me $10.00 per month. And as you point out, they are, in many cases more stringently guarded than TSO But Pedophiles still stalk them as well. So,, Where is your Advantage to turning TSO into another Graphicly challenged chat with Wholley inneffectual policing?
Like you,, I HOPE there is an answer to this problem of Preditors using the net to pursue children, I just have yet to hear a WORKABLE solution.
“This game described in one of the interviews (the Palace?) had these figures calle “wizards” who were like monitors and advisers in the game. I was annoyed at that, it seemed like one more geek know-it-all intrusion against freedom and democracy. I’ve had some second thoughts about it, but I don’t know enough about the selection process for the “wizards” to understand whether they really are fair and democratic.”
It is my understanding that these Wizards are Appointed when THEY establish the room. Much the same way an Owner has abilities to Monitor their Lot in TSO.
If i now read your intent correctly,(and please feel free to say if i am wrong) You are proposing a scenario where Maxis gives us all a framework where we can indeed establish free elections in each city. Once elected, a Government can either set laws, and administrate a Policing force,OR act as the policing body Monitoring for Violations of TOS. Have a Real hand in Governing the game. Interesting concept. In this Model, would the Police also be Judge and Jury, or would there be some right of appeal if they chose to Intervene in any situation?
In your View this would effectively allow Maxis to hunt out and remove elements like the Sexual preditors. Unlike a spot check System, they could actually Investigate allegations of abuses, and avoid having people wrongfully Disciplined by MOMI for Unsupported Charges.
AND, since it IS elected, if the job it does is Heavy handed, or ,on the opposite end, Innefectual, WE as Citizens of TSO can vote them out again next Election time.
Dyer Is this the Framework you have been proposing all along?
Awaiting your response.
Maria.
TSKELLI
Feb 5th, 2004
Very interesting discussion, Dyerbrook and Mistress Maria.
One issue that may get in the way of that kind of think is intellectual property rights and related control issues. Right now it seems like we are still in a gray-ish area here — the more control that the developer gives to the players/inhabitants, however, the weaker the degree of control over the content the developer has. To date, Maxis seems to have taken the very conservative approach regarding no player content or control of this type beyond the strict parameters of stuff provided by Maxis (which is clearly theirs), thereby maintaining a lot of legal and de facto control over the content. The more than the environment is “turned over” to the Sims themselves, the weaker that legal and control position becomes over time.
But that’s just a side point. Please continue this interesting line of discussion.
Kelli
toy
Feb 5th, 2004
toy doesnt understand why TSO cant have ‘in game’ GM’s such as they have in UO….. they can effectively settle disputs quickly and have access to what has been said in game in any room. they also can be invisible and speak only to the people concerned in the dispute in IM…. as TSO stands now they seem to be trying to ‘automate’ human behaviour in settling disputes and it is failing. toy has took her time to email Maxis on numerous times asking clarification on certain things in the TOS and toy has so far only recieved form letter type replies….. toy would like to hear more thoughts along this line please
toy
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 5th, 2004
TSKelli:
“One issue that may get in the way of that kind of think is intellectual property rights and related control issues. Right now it seems like we are still in a gray-ish area here — the more control that the developer gives to the players/inhabitants, however, the weaker the degree of control over the content the developer has. ”
In setting up a structure by which an Avatar based government WITHIN the game oversees TOS i don’t see where this issue would have a Baring. It might,IF we ran splinter cities like one came toy described to me, but in this case,, ALL would still be in Maxis’s hands.
Toy:
“toy doesnt understand why TSO cant have ‘in game’ GM’s such as they have in UO….. they can effectively settle disputs quickly and have access to what has been said in game in any room. they also can be invisible and speak only to the people concerned in the dispute in IM…. ”
Another good Possibility but it seems to lack the Element of Democracy that Dyer would seem to favour.
Dyer, Your Opinion on either of these points?
Maria.
Catseye
Feb 5th, 2004
Sorry as a former in game EA rep volunteer.. I couldn’t begin to tell you the hassels of trying to police thousands of players in a day.. sounds good on paper but reality is different than paper..
top 100 lots*servers*posts=too much
then you rely on someone who does not play the game to define what is going on in the game… let’s take the search engine aspect of the idea you set it for flag words then somone has to take the time and read each post with those flag words then read the ones before and after it to find the context of the post which was flagged..
let’s use an example of the word Slave and start a debate in a top 100 lot about the request that computer companies change the Master/Slave names to something else and see how many flags get raised with the search engine each one of these would have to be read by someone who is actually in the Server building since EA does not use volunteers anymore as in game reps.. they would be paying people to read these and look at the pay scale for tech’s… servers are up what let me make it easier 16 hours a day (yes I know it is low) so you have to have at least 2 people constanly mointering the system for flags and real tech issues.. that is if they do not get lunch or a day off.. now lets just claim 5 servers and you are now up to 10 people for I think 2 people per server is still not efficient but better than 2 people for all five.. now we need another 5 to handle the days off of the ten so we are at 15 just to moniter flagged words.. think we need another 5 just to add the complaints and see if they are warrented or not so we have a force of 20… oops forgot vacations lets toss another 5 in there so 25…
hmm cheaper to place an ignore feature and only field the complaints which still will require a decent work force..
The Games I have played
Ultima online another EA game when I started answered tech calls with in 10 minutes.. when I left it was over an hour..
Everquest: well the tech call I placed I waited 4 days with out a responce and they use player volunteers..
SWG: never had to make a call/complaint yet
TSO: never had to make a call or complaint yet.. I just use ignore or just leave where I am having a problem…
Dyer one thing if I may ask is not to bring religion in here.. it is not allowed in the schools.. looking at society now a days it is not being followed.. and since there are so many of them it does not belong on this topic.. maybe Uri would give you a thread to discuss religion there but the ratings here should not be connected with a religious backing.. for what is wrong to your religion is not always wrong for another religion..
but since you brought up BDSM.. I wonder if you are for or against the Ohio State legaslative’s action against same sex marriages? seems that they will not be giving any benefits to any married couples hetrosexual or otherwise.. feel free to email me on that point if you wish just curious
Catseye
Feb 5th, 2004
toy they do have in game gm’s…
Maria the democracy thing is tempting but look at it on the other side as being not necessarily what is best for the city but who is more popular.. how would a city be ran say if van was elected?
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 5th, 2004
Catseye:
“Maria the democracy thing is tempting but look at it on the other side as being not necessarily what is best for the city but who is more popular.. how would a city be ran say if van was elected?”
I understand chere, and it is not Necessarily something i WOULD support.
My actual suggestion was the Fleshing out of a Question for Dyerbrook. “Is this the Basic Idea behind his concept of Democratizing of TSO?”
If it is, then this is an Invaluable opprtunity for a very interesting Discussion. So, I await Dyers response with great interest. I wish to see the Political model he has in mind, then perhaps we can hear pro’s and cons, or even alternative proposals. (I mean, do we use the American model, or attempt the Canadial Parlimentary one? I would suggest this because it would place TSO in the role of “Governor General” allowing it Final say on descisions made by the Prime Minister,Commons, and the Senate.)
Maria.
Lady Julianna
Feb 5th, 2004
City run government would not work. Would we be law abiding citizens if Van were elected?
It would be a popularity contest, like the balloons. And like the balloons, people would find ways around the system to gain unfair advantage.. buy balloons, making sims to give them ballons on multiple or free trial accounts..
We know how that goes. It would happen with elections as well.
No matter who is elected, not everyone would be happy. Hmm.. I am well known in the game and there are a LARGE number of BDSMers in Alphaville.. I think I could have a good chance of being elected. If that were to happen I could guarantee that Dyer would not be happy.
Queen Julianna… hmmm… lol
TSKELLI
Feb 5th, 2004
“In setting up a structure by which an Avatar based government WITHIN the game oversees TOS i don’t see where this issue would have a Baring. It might,IF we ran splinter cities like one came toy described to me, but in this case,, ALL would still be in Maxis’s hands.”
Mistress Maria — this may be true. My own sense is that EA/Maxis is more ham-fisted than this, perhaps out of worries that these smaller quasi-governmental organizations could eventually result in a degradation of EA’s control over the game. In Second Life, there are neighborhood associations that act like this, but as noted above that environment doesn’t present the same basket of challenges that TSO does.
But it is interesting to discuss different forms of governmental models. The Canadian model may not be the most appropriate — does the Governor General ever really do anything that goes against what the Parliament in Ottawa wishes? I doubt EA would give up the level of control over Alphaville that the Queen has given up, in effect, over Canada and Australia. My own sense is that EA/Maxis would be more willing to have a relationshio along the lines of that existing circa 1980 between Prague and Moscow — Prague had parameters within which to operate, with the understanding that Moscow would step in and shut them down, in effect, if the boundaries were violated. Really an issue of control. Interesting discussion.
“SWG: never had to make a call/complaint yet”
Catseye — This one has! {“Say, why did my landspeeder just go ‘poof’ right when i happened to be speeding by a fairly large grouo of aggro in the Correlian bush? I’m an Entertainer! LOL”} They are prompt so far — usually 1-2 hours. They are worse at fixing the bugs, however.
Kelli
Maria laVeaux
Feb 5th, 2004
My Lady:
“It would be a popularity contest, like the balloons. ”
Yes,, but isn’t Every Election just a popularity contest?
“No matter who is elected, not everyone would be happy. ”
Yes again, but again, How Different from a real election?
“people would find ways around the system to gain unfair advantage”
Do i really have to make this comparison as well?
Thank you My Lady for some of the Con side of Sim Elections.
TSKelli:
“My own sense is that EA/Maxis is more ham-fisted than this, perhaps out of worries that these smaller quasi-governmental organizations could eventually result in a degradation of EA’s control over the game.”
As opposed to the Vicelike grip of control they have on it now?? No, I think Some form of in game monitoring, Elected or Appointed Would improve their control. Don’t you?
“does the Governor General ever really do anything that goes against what the Parliament in Ottawa wishes? ”
Yes he can, and on occasion he does. (I should say “She” just now for the Right Honorable Ms.Clarkson.) The Power rests with her, she oversees it’s administration, and steps in where Breech of Parlimentary Procedure is involved. Maxis, Acting in the GG role would oversee the actions and activities of those elected by us to administrate TOS. Their every case could be reviewed much easier than Maxis itself using a Scattergun approach to dealing with issues in game.
“My own sense is that EA/Maxis would be more willing to have a relationshio along the lines of that existing circa 1980 between Prague and Moscow ”
In a sense, with the neighborhoods, Isn’t that what we have now? Small detached Collectives operating while being governed Very Remotely.
Perhaps the Idea of In Game Elections is a little off topic here. But it could be seen as bringing the game closer to comfortable compliance with the ESRB rating it currently has.
Dyer, I am doing all the talking on this right now. Do YOU think this, or any other democratic Model would work?
If so, How do you see the problems of corrupt elections?
Maria.
Catseye
Feb 5th, 2004
what would the govt power be? to report violations to Maxis? we have the power now to police our own lots.. any special powers to police off our own lots would run a great risk of being abused unless Maxis appointed the individual which would have to be varified age wise due to US labor laws since it is based in the US.. and then they would have to pay that person a salary for their work to police…
toy
Feb 5th, 2004
what is often not realized is the internet is not a democracy
and the GM’s in UO have been there for years so it must be of some good
lets all face it in TSO we are under Maxis’ control, no two ways about it. They are the ones who will determine what they will allow on their servers as any other site or game will… its not a democracy
things will not change until it effects Maxis where it hurts the most, their wallets
toy
TSKELLI
Feb 6th, 2004
toy is quite right in that EA/Maxis will do what they like, and noone will get very excited because it is their game, after all. It would be interesting if some of the ideas suggested above by others were examined by the company because they could add to the game experience, on the one hand, and help head off problem areas, on the other. But, alas, i think that EA/Maxis are not going to do much of anything with TSO in terms of enhancements or upgrades because the relatively limited subscriber base (by EA standards, at least) doesn’t give EA the return on investment it wants for that kind of development work. But it is interesting to discuss it, in any case.
Kelli
Dyerbrook
Feb 7th, 2004
The God Abandons Antony
When suddenly, at the midnight hour,
an invisible troupe is heard passing
with exquisite music, with shouts –
your fortune that fails you now, your works
that have failed, the plans of your life
that have all turned out to be illusions, do not mourn in vain.
As if long prepared, as if courageous,
bid her farewell, the Alexandria that is leaving.
Above all do not be fooled, do not tell yourself
it was a dream, that your ears deceived you;
do not stoop to such vain hopes.
As if long prepared, as if courageous,
as it becomes you who have been worthy of such a city,
approach the window with firm step,
and with emotion, but not
with the entreaties and complaints of the coward,
as a last enjoyment listen to the sounds,
the exquisite instruments of the mystical troupe,
and bid her farewell, the Alexandria you are losing.
Constantine P. Cavafy (1911)
TSKELLI
Feb 7th, 2004
i saw you, mon ami, today. W/we are going nowhere. Alexandria may crumble around our ankles, but we will remain with her, that fair city, until the very last, fool. If Alexandria goes, you will go down with her as well.
Warmest regards (nicer than “Go Away” which you offered me earlier today)
kelli
Dyerbrook
Feb 8th, 2004
Tskelli, you chose to send me an in-game message with something like “hello ass” and to put an in-game profile on your Sim that has my avatar’s name on it and refers to me. This is the kind of really super ongoing adhominem attack that really has no place in this argument, and is illegitimate. I don’t go after BDSM people and look for ways to harass them in the game because of this debate, yet BDSM people stalk and harass me routinely, and you’re merely the latest example. I don’t send them hate messages on IM or in the letters in-game, and yet my box is filled with them. “Go Away” is precisely the appropriate term to use in game against someone who really has no interest in debate and truly having an open-mind, but is just a shrill cheerleader for a tiny-minded rigid orthodoxy, namely BDSM, who *in living, vivid color* illustrates the accuracy of my point, namely that BDSM seeks to extend its domme/dom power over everybody, and does not really care about consent. It is willing to use its dubious methods of shaming and naming and humiliation and contempt in any and every kind of human interaction, on a blog, in a game, anywhere, regardless of whether that person has entered into a contract of consent.
Re:”The PG sims aren’t for younger SLers, but rather for older Slers of your demographic, Dyerbrook, who don’t want mature stuff in their neighborhood (NIMBYism).”
It’s funny how my argument against BDSM as the basis for a society, and the smaller argument about BDSM to be permitted in a game with teenagers and non-consenting adults, gets transmogrified into a debate how I’m some sort of prudish, Calvinistic, witch-hunting NIMBYist, supposedly unable and unwilling to tolerate “mature” themes in my backyard. This is just too hilarious to even make me laugh.
It’s because you don’t know my avatar and his history, and all the Sim Album stories I have written on the subject for 3 years, I guess, but just look through the tiny prism of this debate on a blog. Dyerbrook lives in a sleasy no-motel of last resort. It is populated by alcholics, drug addicts, prostitutes, and addicted Sims players and lowlifes who still search for the meaning of life and have their golden moments that serve as a triumphant affirmation of the human LOL. They have serial and polygamous relationships with others and each other, they don’t shirk at examining the seamy sides of life. There is a never-ended stream of drug-pushers, losers, cigarette-smugglers, trafficked women, etc. coming through this hotel. In fact, there is even a side story about a main love attraction of Dyerbrook, a drug addict, who is swept away by some violent practitioner of BDSM.These are all fictional characters. But when I (and for a time another player) re-enacted them in TSO, which was my original vision, I quickly saw there was a big problem with doing this. I couldn’t put my motel in the love category and have a romance lot with prostitutes because the people coming on my lot *would be kids* and half the time I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a 12 year old and a 32 year old. That sure wasn’t fun for me, because I’m not interested in a 12-year-old girlfriend, thank you very much. I revised my vision, I changed my script, I made a game-category lot, I did other things. *I modified my behavior because I saw this was a game that was not really made up of RP adults*. It was made up of kids, and a lot of adults who in fact were unused to role-playing, didn’t understand it, and in fact turned TSO into that giant AOL chatroom or matchmaker.com server that causes Squirrel to say it isn’t a game.
My beef with BDSM people is that they are unable and unwilling to modify their behavior and tone it down a notch, and wait for outraged moms and MOMI to ban the most flamboyant of their number, because they aren’t really here to play a game or even role-play BDSM. They are just one end of a RL political movement that is trying to use various highly-visible areas of public interaction, like online games, or mass media like Time magazine, to get across their point, which is that anything goes, God is dead, and it doesn’t matter, and violence and slavery can prevail under the dubious notion of consent. That’s all. There is no reason at all to refrain from pushing back against such a movement.
Dyerbrook
Feb 8th, 2004
Re: “I wish to see the Political model he has in mind, then perhaps we can hear pro’s and cons, or even alternative proposals. (I mean, do we use the American model, or attempt the Canadial Parlimentary one?”
Maria, I appreciate your efforts to extend olive leafs and all the rest and move the dialogue to another plane, etc. However, the fact of the matter is, by joining with you in the creation of a civic project, I would be giving tacit consent to your notion of BDSM, namely, that anything goes, God is dead (your notions of Christian BDSM believers are just blasphemy), and it’s all OK, and violence and slavery can be declared their opposites, magically cleansed of any evil by the dubious notion of “consent”, a consent that you have never succeeded in convincing me prevails, not in a game with teens, not in a game with non-consenting adults, where you parade around (until MOMI stops a few of you evidently) with explict, hardcore sexual and violent fantasies on your lots and Sims. We have no basis for a society here. You represent the destruction of society, not its construction on the basis of tolerance, so, sorry, can’t play in your sandbox.
As I said in the AV Gov thread, you can’t start society by deciding unilaterally, or in small groups, what kind of *system* there will be, and that my RL country’s system gets to be better than your RL system. There has to be a Constituent Assembly, a Constitutional Assembly, a Loya Jirga, a Interrim Governing Council, SOMETHING that is *first* the discussion itself about what kind of system you have, you don’t come in and say, “I’m president” or “my system is what we’re all going to use”.
No one says voting has to be based on balloon popularity, or whatever player has access to the tools to make a website in-game radio station. There are other criteria like property ownership, size of ownership, or party formation, construction of single-mandate districts and party lists, etc. If every neighborhood has a president, then those presidents get together for the discussion about what kind of system that would work. This is only one of a dozen possibilities, and in the virtual world, all kinds of compensatory measures have to be made.
I personally leave all of this alone. I’m a small-holder, a single owner on a size 7 property without wealth or riches or popularity, somewhere around the 50-60 spot on the list, but only because I’ve been in the game a long time and get a lot of enemy visitors that jack up my visitor hours LOL plus a few regular friends.
We are in a system where MOMI is like God or the weather, we have little means of controlling or affecting it, although that might be a goal down the road. So creative anarchy, or anarcho-syndicalism is about the only thing you can hope for, punctuated by various revolutionary juntas and criminal gangs disrupting the merry life of the anarchists every now and then.
Any kind of open-ended system could be created. But under the TOS of the game, and the norms of the RL societies in which these games live and move and have their being, sado-masochism is not to be welcomed and tolerated, but it is to be limited heavily. While TSO remains a game with kids in it and non-consenting adults, I simply must favor the constraint of BDSM. That’s not the same as constraining all mature topics and ruining all the fun of all RP adults. But it does mean that adults bent on mature themes must use restraint, and other players must restrain them through the company’s own TOS, if they cannot use some kind of self-discipline out of respect for children and non-consenting adults.
I personally don’t find the game as much fun, populated as it is with numerous BDSM practitioners who represent the destruction of society for me, and griefers and scammers who cannot be controlled through the TOS because players cannot work in any kind of concerte method to use the existing complaint system plus the creation of alternatives. I won’t delete my avatar ever, until the Maxis servers go down and we are asked to cash in our chips and get a refund or something. But I will likely gradually delete all my other Sims in AV and other cities because it is just not as fun as it once was, and this basic dilemma of trying to mix adults and kids was just never solved.
TSKELLI
Feb 8th, 2004
“Tskelli, you chose to send me an in-game message with something like “hello ass” and to put an in-game profile on your Sim that has my avatar’s name on it and refers to me.”
First off all the reference in my profile is to “Dyerism” and not “Dyerbrook”. One would have to be rather well acquainted with our out of game dialogue in order to know what that phrase refers to, yet I will modify it if you wish. When you asked me to “go away”, I went away without further comment — no harassment or stalking from this end, Dyerbrook. I will not send you a message in the game again — no need to worry.
“someone who really has no interest in debate and truly having an open-mind,”
You really haven’t tried to engage me, Dyerbrook. From my vantage point it appears that you are the one with the closed mind, mon ami.
“Domme/dom power over everybody, and does not really care about consent.”
Just as when you repeatedly call Lady J “an ass” — are you hiding a dominant streak, Dyerbrook, or in denial of one? Or is it the case that when one of us decides to slam you, we are guilty of that, but an ad hominem attack or six from you is exempt from that analysis? I’m listening.
“It’s funny how my argument against BDSM as the basis for a society, and the smaller argument about BDSM to be permitted in a game with teenagers and non-consenting adults, gets transmogrified into a debate how I’m some sort of prudish, Calvinistic, witch-hunting NIMBYist, supposedly unable and unwilling to tolerate “mature” themes in my backyard. This is just too hilarious to even make me laugh.”
It was intended to demonstrate that in Second Life the geography is designed so that folks who don’t want alternative lifestyles in their own virtual world don’t need to be exposed to it. It actually was NOT a critique of your POV, in that instance, Dyerbrook.
“My beef with BDSM people is that they are unable and unwilling to modify their behavior and tone it down a notch,”
What specifically would you have us do, Dyerbrook?
“They are just one end of a RL political movement that is trying to use various highly-visible areas of public interaction, like online games, or mass media like Time magazine, to get across their point, which is that anything goes, God is dead, and it doesn’t matter, and violence and slavery can prevail under the dubious notion of consent. That’s all. There is no reason at all to refrain from pushing back against such a movement.”
Huh? I’m not a member of this movement, as far as I can tell. You sound paranoid to me, Dyerbrook. This is just a group of like-minded people sharing a common interest with each other, nothing more.
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 9th, 2004
Dyer, Thank you for responding.
“Maria, I appreciate your efforts to extend olive leafs and all the rest and move the dialogue to another plane, etc. However, the fact of the matter is, by joining with you in the creation of a civic project, I would be giving tacit consent to your notion of BDSM,”
I wasn’t really asking for you to join with me in anything chere, I presented My Understanding of one of your stands and asked for confirmation or amendment. I know you and i will probably never agree on a multitude of points, but that doesn’t mean i don’t want to hear a well thought out opinion well presented.
I understand your objections to us chere, and when put reasonably, i can respect them. It should be obvious to you by now that i respect your discomfort of my company in game because i have not come to your Property, or tried to contact you in game (I know i have never place you on Ignore) As far as that goes, i only invited you to seek me out for a Dialogue, which you declined as is your right. You don’t wish to be around me, so i don’t Inflict myself upon you. but it really has little to do with my post to you.
You obviously have some Knowledge in Political Science chere. So,, let us kick around a few other idea’s for Government in AV. toy, and Lady J point out some very real flaws with a one Avatar, One Vote stratagy. I Agree with them. You added,
“construction of single-mandate districts and party lists, etc. If every neighborhood has a president, then those presidents get together for the discussion about what kind of system that would work. This is only one of a dozen possibilities, and in the virtual world, all kinds of compensatory measures have to be made.”
This would appear on the surface more like a Marxist, or Maoist soviet system (And before anyone gets their Panties in a buch, I am NOT calling Dyer a Communist, NOR am i suggesting it regarding my own political views, i only point out a similarity.). Collectives form and elect neighborhood rep,. Neighborhood reps meet in the soviet to select a leader. Workable, IF as a city, we respect ALL neighborhoods as having the right to add a representative. To set a size limit for example on a neighborhood before it could field a rep would Disenfranchize a large segment of the population, and the Principles of Democracy would then be denied.However, Allowing a neighborhood of three houses the same voting power in the representative group would Effectively Disenfranchise the voting power of most members of a neighborhood fifty houses strong. How could this Disparity be Remedied?
Expand on this one chere, I would like to see your Political Model for AV (Or Indeed any city).
Back now to the Central theme of this Thread.
Dyer, i am sure you read the rating on the box before purchasing. and you were expecting something Wholly different due to the Teen rating.
I didn’t read the rating, and frankly, could care less about it,and my discovery of adult themes in TSO wasn’t surprising to me, i expect where more than four adults get together, Some talk of sex is Inevitable, but that is our difference in outlook. My point is, Assuming Dyer read the rating, It Didn’t say “Mature: explicit sexual content, May depict alternative lifestyles.” it said something to the effect of “Teen; some sexual content.”If it had the first rating, Perhaps he would not have bought it. (Am i right chere?) As it is, he relied on the ratings system and found himself thrown in with sexual content and lifestyles he finds Disturbing. Leaving aside ALL other questions,
Was That Fair?
The ESRB was Woefully Ill equipped to Properly rate a dynamic on line game/chat platform. and as a result a consumer was not properly informed as to content (Or potential for content change).
Either the ESRB had no Business putting a Static game rating on this Box, OR it should have properly prepared itself to rate Accuratly the potential content of the game Environment.
This is the Root of the problem as i see it. Not Dyers opinion of us, or ours of him.
The Arguement would probably never have occurred had the game been rated properly (I just KNOW he isn’t going out of his way to Join Sociolotron). If it had been rated “Mature: explicit sexual content, May depict alternative lifestyles.” Dyer would have NO legitimate complaint because he would have been warned before he ever entered the game.
I hope the ESRB is aware now of it’s error, and will look to correct it, but as it stands now, being unaccountable to anyone for the results of it’s ratings, I doubt it.
Your Thoughts?
Maria.