The Issue of Virtual Slave Auctions
by Alphaville Herald on 19/02/04 at 2:58 pm
In a situation that is currently being discussed on a Second Life message board, Linden Labs moved against a property that was advertising a sexually oriented “slave auction” on the grounds that the slavery aspects of the roleplay were offensive. (The adult theme was presumably a non-issue since 2L is adults only, unless one wants to make the case that this was virutal prositution.) The event went ahead, but was billed as a “party.”
This raises the question of how EA should treat virtual slave auctions here. Several months ago I was property hopping with a reporter from the Boston Globe, and we stumbled onto a slave auction that was sexually themed, and in which there was no age challenge. Apart from the possibility of minors being exposed to the event, the reporter was black, and maybe it was just my liberal white guilt, but I was very embarrassed by the subtext that a slave auction is a kind of fun game. He didn’t say anything, but it is hardly surprising that his article painted an unflattering picture of Alphaville. So far as I know, EA has never objected to a sexually oriented slave auction (although as reported here, they have objected to the designation ‘slave’ in user profiles). Should EA follow the lead of Linden Labs and take action on this matter?
Here is the original post from the 2L thread:
“Phantasie Isle is holding a slave auction, in which men, women, and other entities can sell themselves as a slave for a predetermined amount of time.
Phantasie Isle will be doing this event weekly so everyone will get a chance to be a slave or a master.
If anyone is interested in being a slave the registration will begin @ 7pm SL time there are only 10 openings each week and it will be first come first up to 10 Avi’s. There will be questions asked, before the bidding starts this will give you a chance to make them see your worth alot. Afterall YOU get to keep the money.
Other limitations and requirements are set by the slave in question, and outlined before the bidding begins.
There are alot of private places to go to on the beach or you may wish to go where ever your master takes you. Try the cave, or the hot springs, Venetion pool, Mike’s cabin lots of hiding places. mwahahaha Also there will be very kewl toys on the beach for your playing pleasure.
Sexually orientated ( Please over 18 only)”
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 19th, 2004
Ok,, sorry for the back to back posts, I just found this on the LL board. as reasoning for the Ban.
Read On:
“*Global Standards*
Several Second Life features are global- that is, they can be seen
anywhere, regardless of Sim and Sim rating. These features are
accessible at any time by any resident.
All global features including, but not limited to, group names, group
charters, group icons and resident profiles, must adhere to the
community standards that are defined for a PG sim (see above> Local
Standards).
Events would be covered under these guidelines and the mature
description, as well as the use of the term “slave” which is considered
offensive to many, even when used in a mature community.
With regards to the Terms of Service:
*5. USER CONDUCT*
5.1 _Participant Conduct._ In addition to abiding at all times by the
Community Standards, you agree that you shall not: (i) upload, post,
e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that infringes or violates any
third party rights; (ii) impersonate any person or entity, including,
but not limited to, a Linden employee, or falsely state or otherwise
misrepresent your affiliation with a person or entity; (iii) upload,
post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content that violates any law or
regulation;
In specific, prostitution, virtual or not, is illegal and thus would be
a violation of the Terms of Service.
While we understand roleplaying is an inherant part of Second Life,
holding an event which is in violation of our terms of service and
community standards cannot be supported or condoned by Linden Lab.”
In a Nutshell, Though the event was to take place on a Mature lot, the advertising of the event was seen on PG lots putting it in Violation of the Second Life TOS.
Also;
The sex for money aspect which WAS strongli insinuated in the advertising was a Violation of RL laws, therefore a Violation of SL-TOS
To the best of my Knowledge Prostitution in TSO has never been adressed or acted against, and we also do not have a “Community Standards” Clause in TSO-TOS with regard to advertising because no method exists to make an advertisement seen in every house in Alphaville. so, what was not permissable in SL seems to continue to be allowed in TSO.
Again,, sorry for the Piggyback posts.
Maria.
Lady Julianna
Feb 19th, 2004
To my knowledge there was only one slave auction held in Alphaville, and that was back in November at my home. I put a lot of thought into creating that event, and I saw enough similarities in the Second Life slave auction to know that someone took my idea and used it there. I would object strongly if I played in Second Life, but I do not. Be honourable people. It is part of our code.
The timing is funny for this article, because we are having another slave auction at Black Rose Castle this coming Saturday at 9 pm. Only those on my admit list will be able to enter. I will not be adding anyone to my admit list who I do not know firsthand to be a member of our community.
In Alphaville I did challenge players about age, as I always do, and for an event like that I put my admit list on. To get in, someone not on my list would have to IM me or a roomie, and before being added, their age would have been requested. Even this was uncommon, for when I have my admit list on for a BDSM community event, the house is normally packed with regular members of our community, on one occasion 23 sims on the property. It is difficult for even those on my admit list to get in, let alone outsiders who may or may not be of age. Only those sims I know to be of age and part of our community are on my admit list.
So, where is the room for offense? It was just us, a group of like minded people, enjoying some role play and having a little fun with the doors locked.
Not all slaves were sexual slaves. There were three kinds of slaves:
House Slave
A house slave WILL clean, serve you and your guests plates, water plants, do repairs, and light fireplaces.
A house slave WILL NOT participate in any S&M play or in any sexual play. A house slave will not warm your bed or sleep with you.
Dungeon Slave
A dungeon slave WILL do all that the house slave will do and will also participate in some S&M dungeon play, subject to his or her limits.
A dungeon slave WILL NOT participate in any sexual play and will not warm your bed, nor sleep with you, nor scene with any other but the purchaser
Pleasure Slave
A pleasure slave WILL do all that the house slave will do, will participate in S&M dungeon play, and will also participate in other forms of play subject to his or her limits.
A pleasure slave WILL NOT violate his or her limits and will not serve any other but the purchaser.
All slaves had this notation in common: This is play, and these are subs, not real slaves. They retain all their rights, including the use of their safeword. Play is limited to the game only. It is the responsibility of the purchaser to first learn the slave’s safeword and discuss limits with their slave before commencing any dungeon or sexual play. Use of the safeword ends the play. Violation of the slave’s limits or abuse of the slave gives the slave the right to end ownership with NO REFUND of the purchase price, and there will be no arguing this with the slave, the slave’s permanent owner, nor with the owner or residents of Black Rose Castle.
As you can see a great deal of thought went into protecting those involved in the play and to keep it light and a fun event. As I recall we used to have slave auctions in high school, and charity events have done the same, with similar limits about the expectations of such “slaves”.
Come on people! Lighten up! Have some fun! It is a group of like minded adults, no kids, and the doors will be locked. Where is the harm? I see none. And for those of you who will not participate, why would it bother you that others are enjoying themselves?
Lady Julianna
Feb 19th, 2004
By the way Uri, who was the author of this article? I think that authors should not remain anonymous, but should stand up and take ownership of their words and opinions. Even Dyer does that.
TSKELLI
Feb 19th, 2004
I have to disagree with LL that virtual prostitution (by which I take to mean cybersex for money) is illegal … it is not. It does not fall under the criminal prostitution statute.
I think that this was bound to happen in SL. I do not play there very much, I do not find it very interesting, but the wide-open system they have there was an accident waiting to happen. I will say that this is the first instance I am aware of in a few months being on and off there of this kind of a sentiment coming from LL. Seems like hypocrisy to me when they are off selling entire islands to advertising companies. Tsk, Tsk, Lindens … disilluionment must follow.
Kelli
JC Soprano
Feb 19th, 2004
“By the way Uri, who was the author of this article? I think that authors should not remain anonymous, but should stand up and take ownership of their words and opinions. Even Dyer does that.”
Uri wrote this post, but the Boston Globe article was done by someone else. As for taking ownership, sometimes Uri doesnt want his writers names revealed and vice-versa. Me and him get into many debated on the subject lol
JC Soprano
http://www.thesimmafia.com
The guy in the BG story.
Lady Julianna
Feb 20th, 2004
Thanks JC.
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 20th, 2004
For those of you puzzled by my “Piggyback Posting” comment, I had sent a previous post which Obviously didn’t go through (I have been having some computer problems lately)
My Original post went roughly as follows.
Personally, I find the Slave Auction game to be silly. (No Offence My Lady.) I thought so when they were done in my Highschool years for fundraisers, (And i attended a Catholic boarding school) I thought they were silly when they were done as an Ice Breaker at a Weekend team building retreat with one company i worked for, and i Still find them Silly and indignified now.
I do not now, nor have i EVER equated them with my Lifestyle, Nor have i seen links to my Ethnic Heritage (Yes, I am Very Black) it is Just a Game i Happen to find rather Tasteless.
It is a Very Common Misconception among Vanilla’s that we aquire our subs and slaves through Purchase. Several times i have had Vanilla’s offer to Purchase toy, or one of my other girls in order to set them Free. Jokingly, i have told them that they would have to pay me toy’s Fair replacement Value. When they ask how much, I quote a number in Simoleans roughly equal to the GNP of all the G-7 countries combined. (For my toy, that would actually count only as a small percentile down payment.) Then i Explain to them the true nature of our relationship and How i come to own such a treasure as my toy.
Unfortunatly, I feel the Slave Auction game trivializes what i do, and it also causes people to think of is in Inaccurate terms.
My Lady’s Functions are somewhat better as they only admit friends and is more a Private party than a public event but i still do not take part.
My Disagreement with them Having been voiced,, Now, my thoughts on Banning them.
No.
If Maxis/EA banned every function of questionable taste in TSO, there would be Precious little left to do. Might as well just pull the Plug.
While i will not take part myself, I agree with My Lady. Lighten up. it is only a Parlor game among friends.
Maria.
JamesMiller
Feb 20th, 2004
Hi there. I’m a user of Second Life, and I didn’t even hear about this event until I read about it here! It wasn’t a big deal in SL, I don’t think anyone was offended. The Lindens felt they were better safe than sorry, just as any company should do.
It’s a well known rule in SL that you can’t have mature things, even in a Mature area, if they can be viewed by someone in a PG area. So, if you want to display porn, you need to have it in-doors. If you want to get undressed, stay indoors, or far away from the border of PG and Mature.
I don’t think anyone ‘stole’ your idea from TSO. I doubt you were the *only* person to ever do them in TSO. I think it was a really cute idea for an event, and from what I hear, they made over L$27,000 (That’s a lot!).
I think another ‘party’ is being held next week, maybe some of you should get trial accounts and see what the slave sales are like for yourself.
urizenus
Feb 20th, 2004
The name of the author of the Boston Globe article can be found on that link.
The slave auction we saw was not on a BDSM lot but a vanilla lot. It was not the first I’ve seen on a Vanilla lot. I don’t really have a strong opinion about these events, but I thought that since it had become a topic of conversation on 2L it would be interesting to discuss it here too.
Cocoanut
Feb 20th, 2004
I have a strong opinion about not being called Vanilla.
coco
TSKELLI
Feb 20th, 2004
Coco — Okay, I would not call you that. I would call you non-BDSM, if that is ok with you? W/we take a strong exception to being called freaks, perverts, broken people, disturbed people, etc.
But “vanilla” is not always intended as a pejorative … when I was a young one I always liked vanilla ice cream, b/c it tasted good, and it was no “knock” to say I liked vanilla. But if you take it as a knock, very well, I would not call you a “vanilla”, but a non-BDSMer.
Kelli (posting from the virtual grave *laughs*)
Cocoanut
Feb 21st, 2004
Thank you, Kelli!
coco
Dyerbrook
Feb 21st, 2004
Selling people like things is wrong. Mistreating them like animals is wrong. It is immoral and illegal. It should therefore not be imitated in a game. I am glad Linden Labs took action. It isn’t much, but it’s something. I hope they did it not only because of racial issues. But if that’s all their politically-correct peabrains could come up with, well, we’ll work with what we have…
Like I’ve already said, reviewing all this ‘do his and don’t do that’ stuff about the “house slaves” and the “field slaves” (dungeon and pleasure) once again shows me BDSM has more rules and regulations than Islam or Catholicism, sheesh. I guess because it is a substitute for religion, it is a kind of cult. One thing is clear, God is not at the center of it, man is.
Squirrel
Feb 21st, 2004
Selling people like things is wrong. Assuredly so. Mistreatment and abuse and blah blah blah, yes this is obviously all wrong. To say that it should not be imitated…this is not so obvious. In a consequence less (or at least less consequenceful) environment like TSO or 2L these activities lose much of the character that makes them so immoral and evil. I find it rather disturbing that your argument can be easily applied to many many forms of human expression. If slavery is agreeably horrid in real life should we not explore imitate and investigate salvery or any of a vast array of immoral acts in theatre, film, literature, even play. Kids games of cops and robbers, kill the guy with the ball and a host of violent themed play, while not possesing the sexual overtones of our topic du jour raise the same fear. Should we be allowing play that is focused on or explores immoral or objectionable concepts? I’d have to argue yes on grounds that dogmatic assertion of wrong and right to little to guide us towards a more “moral” society. Rather i’d supposed that it is the play, exploration and understanding of any immorality is key in managing it.
Should we excercise all immoral and illegal activity mimicry from games? If so that nearly all games we play would be verbotin? I guess this logic of mystical blame works if your a big supporter of the Lieberman style accusations of medias horrific influence, I for one have a tad more faith in the basic moral structures of people and in our ability to know the difference between flesh and pixel.
BDSM as a substitute for religion? Seems like quite the baiting statement. . .
Catseye
Feb 22nd, 2004
Did you miss me?
well I see that Dyerism is still rampant in preaching what he knows nothing about still.. and making himself look foolish more and more with each post…
First off Dyer using your statement about selling others and comparing what the auction was like tells me you are unemployed for if you work and get paid you are selling youself to your company and therefore are immoral using your statement that is…
I have seen these auctions before in schools etc where one can bid on the services of the other to do chores for them.. I have even read of these in comic books… so pull the other leg it has bells on it…
If you really really think that BDSM is a “religion” then you are in violation of my constitional rights of freedom to choose what religion I wish.. though we both know that is not the case since BDSM is not a religion… so try another approach on that as well little man
God is not the center of TSO either Dyer but I do not see you boycotting and preaching about the sin of playing sims there are no churches there is no praying interaction in fact I do not think they have made a choice to study the bible in game yet either…
As for Rules and Regulations of BDSM.. if you talk to 10 different people in the style you will get 10 different pages of rules.. there is no BDSM handbook that you can go out and buy.. there is no surpreme ruler of BDSM.. there are a bunch of people who talk before getting into the roles and set their own limits… some do not wish sexual content.. others have certain fetishes they will not be a part of.. some just wish to be spanked every once in a while and others just wish to spend time with each other.. course I did notice that you lump still BDSM into one catergory and seperate religions into different ones.. which makes yet another of your statements biased..
here let me correct you AGAIN and see if you think the same thing…
once again shows me BDSM has more rules and regulations than religion sheesh..
there now both are grouped into a nice lump package tell me your thoughts on that and which has more rules and regulations…
god I am tired of shallowminded idiots who think they know every dang thing about everything.. was in a gaming site the other day and playing gin with some friends and what do I read in the lobby? “The American culture sucks it is the worst culture in the world” and I thought dang Dyer found me… but like Dyer this one would not say WHICH part of the american culture sucks just made the statement over and over again…
Dyer has stated he doesnt like violence but it is not VDSM.. he has stated he doesnt like the idea of someone owning another person well he is not preaching the evil ways of Professional sports in here.. Dyerism tries to point out things that they do not like alone with out accepting the other things alike it around them in the same scales of judgement…
Lady Julianna
Feb 22nd, 2004
Well, last night’s slave auction was a success, and enjoyed by most who participated. When I went into the game today there were several emails thanking me for having the event.
I do this for subs and slaves in the game, to create a chance for a thrilling virtual experience. I know the submissive heart, adore it, and strive to please it. For the submissive, giving up control to an unknown other who will win the bidding can be quite an intense experience. I imagine that as they stood on that block, blood pounded through their veins and adrenalin ran high. All money went to the submissives. The house took no profit and neither I nor my roomies made any financial gain from it.
I thank all who participated and made the evening a success and fun. Special thanks to Lord Cougar, SubBrina, Naadirah, PreciousOne, Aislin, and Mikal. It could not have happened without your contribution.
Lady Julianna
Feb 22nd, 2004
Maria, ma belle amie. I would never wish to offend you my friend, and from your Gorean perspective I understand your point of view completely. Of course I am not offended.
Here is a thought… Why not hold the real thing at your home? It would have to be a by invitation only event, with the doors locked of course. You would only invite reputable Masters and Mistresses of your aquaintance. Those seeking a Gorean collar could place themselves for auction, understanding that the intent would be not just for a limited time.
I would hope to be invited to attend, but of course I would not expect to be permitted to bid, since I am not Gorean.
Just a thought my friend.
Maria LaVeaux
Feb 23rd, 2004
My Lady,
As i stated above, It is a Common Misconception among those outside the community that we gain our slaves through purchase, Let me repeat, We Do Not.
That is the way of the Books, and the world of Gor, But in On Line, and RL situations, we gain our slaves in the same fashion as you do your subs. We gain our slaves through Mutual consent, Trust, and Love.
Contrary to some views expressed by the woefully Ignorant, Our slaves are not just Meat, they are Not just Pack animals. Our slaves are special people who desire to serve, and through their service, desire to better themselves. We guide them, teach, and nurture them, It is a very caring and personal relationship. Our slaves love and trust us, and we love and care for them.
Let me ask you, How could you build a long term and trusting relationship with someone who is treated as a commodity rather than a long term commitment?
In simple words, you Can’t.
Game slave auctions are silly, they do not offend me, i just find them juvenile. Play them if you want to, i just won’t take part. As for the real thing. No. they are not in the best interests of either the community or the slave.
Maria.
PS:
Again Dyer posts one of his “New and Original” perspectives. Strange it sounds so similar to his past arguments that have all been discredited.
It seems every time he posts i hear an echo, either it is the repetitiveness of his words, or the natural result of the great void between his ears.
M.
Lady Julianna
Feb 23rd, 2004
Just a thought ma belle amie, no offense intended. *Warm smile*
One ring.
Dyerbrook
Feb 23rd, 2004
When does it happen? Perhaps something missing in the infant formula? Maybe too much of that high-fructose corn syrup in the soft drinks? Endless hours of TV and video games, vapid lessons from idiotic teachers who spent the 1960s and 1970s stoned, peddling politically correct nostrums? Too much noise from Sony walkmans? Maybe overuse of antibiotics in poultry and Frankenfoods? Whatever it is, our nation’s youth has lost the ability to think. Their minds are damaged and afflicted. They do not appear to have had the Socratic method taught to them. They cannot think straight, with any kind of rhyme or reason or logic or understanding of rhetoric. They have not read “the greats,” and for them the primal beat of the drum on the African savannah or the heroin chic screaming teen angst on MTV is equal to a Mozart concerto — it’s all one, it’s all the same, it’s all equal, there is nothing “better” and nothing “worse” because “if God is dead, anything goes” and language and meaning are merely reduced to a lot of cyphers, meaningless text, capable of being twisted to any purpose or meaning, always and everywhere subordinate to “my rights” and “me me me”. There is no truth, and no justice.
That is why someone like Catseye, God bless him, cannot tell the difference between transatlantic slavery, a scourge to humankind, rightly condemned as a “crime against humanity” at UN conferences, or modern-day slavery in Sudan, as equal to a man receiving millions — millions — of dollars for being a player on a football or baseball team “owned” by somebody like George Bush, Jr. That is why somebody dragged across the Atlantic against their will in past centuries, separated from their family, starved, beaten, and put on a block and sold for a pittance into back-breaking labor like cotton-picking, can be compared to somehow who offers themself for hire at any day labor in our modern, pampered 40-hour week, “employed at will,” as the laws of New York State describe it. It’s a pity. It’s an utter lack of *discretion,* a poignant lack of *knowledge and wisdom,* and appalling lack of *simple mathematics of scale and magnitude* such as should be taught in, oh, sixth grade. A man who takes a job, a man who gets millions to be a football team, these are of course quite different things than unpaid slave labor under brutal conditions. But no matter. It’s all one, it’s all the same, and anything goes. And yet…and yet…even a game company says “no”. They are like that complacent Bavarian burgher with a “conscience”. They took away 50 Jews. He turned his face away in distraction and annoyance. They took away 100 Jews, he watched in silence and did nothing. They took away 500 Jews, and he said, wait, that might be a bit too much…
it could be bad for business. Hey, those are my customers!
Some have mentioned frivolous “slave auctions” in high schools where people bid to have someone do silly things for them for a day. A “progressive” high school of the modern type would not likely hold such a thing, for fear of being politically correct regarding African Americans and if they have an ounce of empathy, might being given genuine pause by thinking of making frivolous the scourage of real slavery suffered by people’s real ancestors. But of course a high school, a football team, my job, these aren’t slavery. And BDSM, BDSM in all its “wisdom” makes the same moral equivalency argument. It isn’t “real slavery” any more than those “fake slaveries”. Or…wait…their language and logic is so tangled! — it *is* like those frivolous things and isn’t real. For some people. For those with a “safety word”. As if a “safety word” can suddenly have meaning, when all all meaning has been cast aside in advance…
People in BDSM play at slavery, at ownership, at pain, at suffering, because they gain sexual and mental pleasure at having power over other human beings, or being subdued by other human beings. This is what Paul Berman, “Terrorism and Liberalism” meant when he said:
“”He [Albert Camus] had noticed a modern impulse to rebel, which had come out of the French Revolution and the nineteenth century and had very quickly, in the name of an ideal, mutated into a cult of death. And the ideal was always the same, though each movement gave it a different name. It was not skepticism and doubt. It was the ideal of submission.”
You can pick…Camus or Sartre…or you can pick DeSade and Masoch…
That thrill of the boot on the neck is probably a greater pleasure than any actual genital sensation for these BDSMers. They rant on about “mutual love and respect” — as if there wasn’t a normal way to have mutual love and respect, the old-fashioned way, the way that worked at least in the last century, which was equality, equality between men and women that many women even gave their lives struggling for.
They are the epitome of sex in the mind of the modern cyber type. That doesn’t make it right. It makes it sick. It is a deviation, it is an abomination. Not because I say so. But because thousands of years of humankind’s struggle for morality and decency in many of the world’s greatest religions say so, and the simple history of our great nation, where men gave their lives in a civil war to fight slavery, says so.
Oh, they flog themselves in Iraq, those Shiites, during the prophet’s son’s memorial rites? They flog themselves in some obscure sect of the Catholic Church? But who said that was a standard for humankind? Moral equivalency, anything goes, and “everybody’s doing it,” so it’s OK. Well, guess what, they aren’t.
If it is in cyberspace, if it is with “consenting adults,” if it is only play, does it matter? Leave aside the silly legal implications, where some torts king will prove that it matters not, because anything goes. What about the damage to the human spirit? What about the injury to the human soul? You think it is of no consequence. You leave a vast wreckage about you that makes the angels cry.
Cocoanut
Feb 24th, 2004
Though I disagree with some of Dyerbrook’s views, I do absolutely love his mind.
Take heart, Dyer – youth are counted one at a time, and mine are learning how to think.
coco
Lady Julianna
Feb 24th, 2004
Oh you do go on Dyer… It really is simple. We’re having fun, and we don’t really care what you think. Get over yourself. You are not that important. Not everything is all about you.
Now leave us alone and stop fixating on us before you give yourself a stroke. Go and make your own fun and leave us to ours.
And don’t worry Dyer, your neck is safe from my boot. Mikal just polished it and I don’t want to soil it.
toy
Feb 24th, 2004
toy would correct you on one point dyer. Goreans DO NOT PLAY
also if your idea of how the youth of today should be taught would resemble how you are, thank god it isnt happening
toy does wonder often why it takes you days to reply, is it simply it takes you that long top look up archaic terms and words to impress with? toy does think so
say what you feel for once, dont hide it behind words of others 
falara kajira toy
Catseye
Feb 24th, 2004
Oh I agree that the slavery of the US past against the African Americans was not proper however I find it ludicrous that they are compared to a BDSM online relationship… the slavery you are talking about had no choices in their roles the slaves in our lifestyle do .. Our slaves are more like the pro athlete in today’s society they are pampered they are well taken care of and yes they have the option of walking away if they so choose.. They are not hunted down there is no way to force them to remain.. ~smiles~ course being your senior in years Dyer makes me wonder of the youth.. Not accepting someone’s choice in life to be what they want to be as being valuable instead they should be what others wish them to be… you defend the right of the parent to Force their child into a field or activity that the Parent wants even though the child may not find it interesting… Maybe forcing their child to listen and study the great ones when their passions run in the abstract and modern fields..
~shakes his head~ I understand completely what I believe and see and have learned in my life to realize that speaking out for those who do not wish to be spoken for is unwanted… you are not a savior you are an instigator.. should the Jews be whining about the country of Germany for the sin against them? should not your concern about the way the United States treated the Native Americans out weigh the slavery of the African Americans? after all there were more sins against the Natives.. we came really close in destroying a culture and a way of life because we did not understand it and thought it immoral in our eyes just like we almost killed off a species due to the profit the animal gave us not just once but almost twice..
Profit is the drive in your argument the major religions in the US are not concerned about Morals they are concerned about Profit.. just watch any TV show send in the money.. buy me that fancy clothes I want buy me that fancy car.. a ford focus is not an option I need a sedan.. let me ask the poor people for cash when I have designer clothing and a Rolex on my wrist.. you do not care for our souls you care for only feeding your own egomania.. Yes again I point to the Jimmy Swaggarts of this world I point to the Oral Roberts of this world I point to the Catholic Priests of this world I point to the Bakers of this world.. are these the norm of the Religious community? no they are not but the norm allow these to remain in the lime light shedding a dark shadow on what they are preaching for.. it is a hypocritical life usually the old joke as to why do you take two Baptist fishing instead of one comes to mind because if you only take one he will drink all the beer…
The Bible was written by man it was translated by man and even now it is updated by man it is one of the great pieces of Literature but it is not lived by anyone not fully… I think you missed my debate with Phin about the ten commandments in another thread his version says Murder mine says Kill this alone shows that man controls what the Bible says not God..
God is Dead Man has killed him and it wasn’t the Sinners it was those in Power that Killed him it was the leaders standing on that pulpit telling people what to believe and marking any that didn’t as heathen and immoral people like you Dyer.. sorry I didn’t take time to research the big words to use to describe what I feel I think plain simple words that everyone understands are better than larger words that leave some scratching their heads in wonderment what you are talking about… but then again it is the typical tactic to keep those of poor education in the dark as to what you are really representing.. you claim the BDSM has more rules and rite to keep those not in the style from actually learning but you show time and time again that you use words to keep others from learning…
Now back to the Auction… only person receiving the cash from the purchase was that being sold.. The House did not take a cut.. the person being sold set their own limits to what they would do and not do before and they were protected by that verbal contract I think the minimum price for the “slave” was 100k one I know went for 1 mill 30k and no she was not a pleasure slave… so do not sit there in your shaded little world and pass judgment on something you have no idea about my comparison about the pro athlete was correct as was my mentioning the charity slave auctions of school…
Christians have always pushed their beliefs on others we force the Jewish religion to take off on a Christian Holiday we do not deem the other religious holidays as important enough.. they thrust themselves on others and judge them a heathen and uneducated because they do not believe
and Coco I too like his mind I would like to see it donated to science to see how for over 30 years it can still be closed and filled with such dribble that spews from his fingertips into this forum…
See the Light Dyer there is still time for you to open your mind it is not too late for you yet.. no I am not recruiting you for BDSM but I am recruiting you for the human race and a chance to make the race reach forward into a line of thinking when all are loved and cherished no matter what they practice in the safety of their own house.. no matter what they believe or think.. a race with no hates.. a race that takes time to learn what they do not understand and grow and expand in life not limited to what they are told or just learn from books or posts on the forums of life.. ask questions to that you do not understand and not just one person ask many get a true cross reference not a limited piece of the pie.. and for god sake think and learn before you speak your opinion know your point as truth before trying to bash others with it for if you are not able to back it up and speak confidently and able to answer All questions about your point you too can become a member of Dyerism and remain locked into shallow thinking of how others are classified by their jobs.. their hobbies their education
Lady Julianna
Feb 24th, 2004
*Applauding Catseye.*
Well spoken.. I share your view of humanity and was hoping to see something like that realized in my lifetime.
I disagree about God. He is alive and well, and I think that your vision of what humanity could be comes closer to God’s vision than Dyer’s does.
I agree that Dyer should donate his brain to science as an example of dinosaur type thinking, hopefully soon to become extinct. Sigh, and yes, even though he is not using his brain we should wait til he is dead… It is only right, lol.
Mikal
Feb 24th, 2004
Well said Sir Catseye. Well said.
In response to this “can be compared to somehow who offers themself for hire at any day labor in our modern, pampered 40-hour week, “employed at will,” as the laws of New York State describe it. ” i do believe that i chose to become a submissive to Mistress Lady Julianna. i offered myself to Her. Therefore, i see no issue according to New York State.
Be well A/all
Mikal
Mikal
Feb 24th, 2004
Addition to above comment. Since i am offering my services freely…without reservation…it would be accepted anywhere.
This according to what Dyer posts anyway.
Mikal
Dyerbrook
Feb 25th, 2004
You still don’t get it, so bent are you on swaggering around and showing your own dense idiocy. Let me try one last time. I don’t impose my beliefs and ways on others. I am not a dinosaur. I am not a member of the Christian Right. I am a liberal. These distinctions are lost on you. I don’t care what your lifestyle is, what you do in the privacy of your home and life, what you are or do, and I don’t want everyone to “be like me” because that would make for a boring world, hmm? All of that is beside the point. What I do care about is the right — the necessity — the duty — of denouncing BDSM because it is taking over a game, a game with children and non-consenting adults. It is an experiment in a virtual community building and I, for one, take it seriously and want it to be free, and not filled with slaves and owners who gain pleasure from these “fake” transactions. I think it is obscene and wrong. It’s OK to think that. It happens to be the norm. You live under a rock and don’t see it. I think it matters, the kind of society you build in virtual life. I don’t want this society to be this way. So I oppose it. That’s how you make a world, by people pushing and pulling.
I don’t expect you to “convert” or “stop” but I do invite you to *use self-restraint* and stop recruiting minors. Yes, recruiting. I hope in my debates to appeal to those fragile souls who are taken in by the glamor of evil, who think this supposedly medieval chivalry is cool or fun, and don’t realize it covers a viper’s nest. I’ve met enough people in the game and RL who have either left cults, or left BDSM, or left wicca, or left whatever, to understand that people get sucked in, and it is OK and even necessary to start some cross talk and debate the seemingly PC and cool trend. That’s it. I don’t aspire to rule the world, I won’t be voting for George Bush, I support gay marriage, and I will be God-damned if I can see what Native Americans have to do with this discussion. What, two wrongs don’t make a right, do they? The plundering and killing of Indians are wrong, and slavery of Africans is wrong. What is your point? That somehow we have to turn our face away from a bunch of play-actors fooling around with BDSM in a game and look at real tragedies? Sure. I’m happy to do that. Except that most tragedies of magnitude begin first in the human heart and mind. A spirit of violence, contempt, hatred, arrogance, and downright evil sweeps the sub-cultures, filling the void left by all kinds of things, from schools, to absentee parents, to TV. BDSM epitomizes this. It can and should be opposed. If someone wants this in their RL, and they don’t break some obvious law, who can stop them? So persuasion, not prosecution is what you have left. Another example which might be more clear. I personally oppose abortion. I wouldn’t hope anyone close to me would have one. But I support the law of the land. I don’t oppose it. I understand it is the law, and people have a right to chose. I think a woman facing an abortion in fact already had a profound lack of choice at the instant she got pregnant, for all sorts of reasons, but that’s a separate discussion. But it is her decision. It is my duty merely to persuade her of the pain and suffering involved and to try to find alternatives. The same is true of BDSM. Your failure to understand these distinctions are yet another reason why you should be opposed, and why virtual community-making cannot be left in your hands. You will maliciously and wilfully “misunderstand” every valid and thoughtful point made because you recognize no higher power, only your own desires.
OK, that’s it, I’m giving up debating about BDSM for Lent LOL.
Catseye
Feb 26th, 2004
Dyer I do not recruit minors.. I am BDSM not a pedophile.. In fact I do not recruit I will leave that to the military… I think alot like you in fact with a few minor adjuctments…
First I do not support Abortion as a birth control.. I think it is wrong for a pregancy to be terminated in lieu of Health risks to mother.. Rape or incest.. that is why I support it I think it evil to make a say 14 year old suffer giving birth because she was forced to have sex against her will…
I am alot like Coconut being offended at the vanilla label… I am offended at your statements labeling all who play in the bedroom as you have.. I too wish the utopia world where we are free to explore.. and be who we wish to be without regard to being persucated for those desires
I am BDSM and you need to accept the fact that I am not like the picture you are painting for the world… I accept that there are those out there who claim the BDSM title who are like you are saying though.. both in Sims and in real.. but I do not see them as BDSM… maybe we can create a new word BDSM right and put those players and pretenders in that catergory..
Dyer we are not taking over the game.. we are not taking over the world.. we are simply stepping out the closet so to speak and entering the daylight of the virtual society of Sims… Many of us have not done so in real and this gives us the chance to be known.. yes it is only virtual but it is still a breath of fresh air
toy
Feb 26th, 2004
whew dyer, your post explains a lot hehehe
toy is conservative and is a proud member of the young republicans federation….. which allows a person to be what they want even if a liberal says it is wrong….. toy has never recruited.. Gor isnt something that would be able to servive if people were recruited into it… you see a very minute part, in your wanderings in TSO, of what Gor is about.. you have been invited to Dark Virtues to have open discussions, of course you will never go there….. toy thanks god everyday that your kind of narrowmindeness is a very small minority… toy will continue to pray for you and to pity you dyer.
falara kajira toy
Sarah
Mar 4th, 2007
I really don’t think that closed minded people like dyer should even deserve opinions some times. Three quarters of his arguments against other people having fun was based upon his ideology of society standards that he is trying to force down other people’s throats. Why can’t people realize that just as people are different, so are their hobbies and what they define as, “fun”? Personally, I think that participating in a slave auction may be some what amusing, so long as my girl friend came with me. :p
Since this is the internet, it’s perfectly legal, you don’t see people shutting down all of the chatrooms and IRC channels where people openly dominate and own pleasure slaves, do you? The only difference is that SL actually has a 3D environment.
I think that the entire problem is being blown way out of porportion. How do you solve it?
People who enjoy the lifestyle of such slave auctions should be able to attend to their heart’s content as long as it is kept safe and private.
People who strongly disagree with the entire idea of it, based upon religion, or racism, or whatever point they’re trying to make, should just stay away from it and mind their own business.
Problem solved. ^^
Kina
Mar 5th, 2007
I think Dyer has a little issue with coping with the real world. He seems to have this pretentious thought that only his and his idealogy is legit. Its a little sad I admit; Slavery is still legal in some other countries. However, Id like to pose this question to anyone opposed to this idea of a slave auction. How can you be an Internet slave? Clearly, no ones hands are chained and bound to the keyboard for [Insert supernatural creator here] sake’s. Its a matter of intellectual property and enjoyment. If the person was unwillingly, they’d turn off their monitor.
Artemis Fate
Mar 5th, 2007
Man things really have changed eh? From the Lindens intervening and stopping a slave auction in 2004 because it was offensive, to them turning the cheek to probably over 100 gorean sims.
Josh Browne
Oct 12th, 2008
I met a girl named Shelby a month ago. I am now her master. She use to be really good until she started working at Miran Vista Senior living. Whenever I tell her not to do somthing she simply tells me no, then when try and spank her she refuses to cooperate. I feel I shouldn’t have to hold that red headed brat down to scold her. Any suggestions cause I do love her and I’m not willing to let go anytime soon
MasterOfReson
Oct 22nd, 2008
I don’t play second life or any of the games mentioned… and it has been a while since I considered myself “playing” at … well I’ll collectively call that wide variety of experiences and experiments BDSM… I fell upon this blog completely by accident… and inexplicably stayed to read every post.. a few comments for any that care…
First I am amazed to learn that a community such as second life exists… where people can express the true nature of their being… I remember living in various places in the mid-west as little as 10 or 15 years ago… an the closest “community gathering” being hundreds of miles away (we’re a bit more prolific now) but still anywhere in the world with internet access you can log on and connect with like minded people in real time… isn’t technology grand.
Secondly I think the online auction role play is really pretty harmless.. not mind and life altering the way it has been suggested… I mean even if no rules or strictures were put in place to protect the slaves which it sounds as if there were (if your offended violated brainwashed etc… turn of the computer) this seem the safest most sterile method of exploring our darker fantasies that I have ever seen described
Finally… I think everyone is too hard on poor dyer… LOL God love him (no one else will) but he does try SO hard to make coherent sentences… I mean… he seems closed minded and afraid and judgemental to us.. but lets face it most anyone involved in BDSM has … shall we say an evolved since of acceptance… I mean he is obviously uninformed and perhaps a bit ignorant… but he is trying hard to have a civil debate… I haven’t seen someone try so hard to convince me of my own immorality in years.. and I for one congratulate his courage.. and welcome lively debate (its a problem of mine I believe all can be made to seen the light with enough debate … or spankings…. choose the appropriate method for the circumstance)
Anyway the last part is archaic references for dyer… to go read about
Who was it that said “Ignorance is the birth mother of all fear only through exploration and understanding can we conquer that most vile of enemies”
Slave Sviess
Jan 12th, 2010
Look at my name. Look at it. Yes i am named SLAVE Sviess in SL. Yes i took the name because i wanted to explore slavery in SL. Yes i have enjoyed it. Yes i have made many friends because of it, and YES I ENJOY BEING SUBMISSIVE. The whole debate about whether slavery in games is right or wrong is stupid. ITS A GAME. what part of that dont people get? if i dont like my Master i can leave or i can block him. i dont tell people where i live or any info that would help them find me and that means that im as safe as you can get. Have some fun and stop being little whiny bitches. Its a free country and i WILL use the words slave and master and yes even bitches if i want. on top of that if these things are in aMature area it is impossible for an underage child to gain access. they would have to either hack in or use their parents social or credit card. If your kids can do that without you knowing then this game is the very least of your worries.
Sorry about the ramble but seriously people get a life and leave people like me with the life we choose. NO ONE LIKES A BUSYBODY.
Slave Sviess
Jan 30th, 2010
Oh and one more thing for dyer. I am native American so dont even try and drag my people into this. For your information the Native Americans are not judgmental at all and bdsm is way closer to the way that women behave in our tribes than in western society. In fact in every society but this one women are not the people that take care of the family the an is. why is that i wonder? could it be that men are stronger,faster, and more able to cope with physical stuff than us girls? not saying they are smarter but they are stronger and i dont know about other girls but i show respect to the person that putts food in my belly. k im done with this thread
Crystal
Jan 21st, 2011
I just have to say, Bull Hynes is the biggest jackass in sl. And this has to be known. He picks on the smaller people. If you open a new slave auction house, he will go after you like he has done to many of my friends, making it difficult for them to do anything. Bull is nothing more than an old ass hat with a big ego. True, he gives Texans around the world a bad name.
If you’re thinking about being sold in Bonanza- think again. Having your IP address checked means that this man will know everything about you and can steal your identity. Do you really want to risk that? Not only that, but checking IP addresses is clearly against LL’s ToS.
So bravo, Mr. Hynes, you’ve singlehandedly have become the most hated man in sl, ever checked how many people have started hate groups against you? How many slaves you’ve had have ran because they grew brains and ran before it could get worst? And how much of a mature grown man you are by not listening to complaints and people with a higher IQ than you? Do you just always laugh and mute them?
So, to the slaves being sold by Bull Hynes. Beware of the true monster that dwells within that man.