more stuff you can do with terms of service (TOS) agreements
by Alphaville Herald on 13/11/04 at 10:03 am
i dunno how many of you guys have bothered to follow the TOS thrashes that show up here now and then. for those of you who do not follow them — the points debated can concern the use of TOS as holy writ v the use of TOS docs as really fine personal information reapers.
generally the cocobot contingent shows up on the side that defends the multi-national corporation’s simple need to harvest personal information from gamers either through the registration process or through in-game monitoring of user activity. others debate the sincerity of the corporation’s statements, pointing instead to fine print, trade rags, the existence of huge data stores like the experian mine.
through synchronicity, the good people at FRONTLINE (the documentary wing of the PBS) have produced a film about advertising and information, which can be streamed from this url:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/persuaders/view/
some may especially enjoy
part 2: emotional branding
part 3: the blur between content and advertising
part 6: narrowcasting
of course those who have been following the second life herald for some time will be no stranger to these ideas, knowing as they do that the words “information feudalism” do not refer to guys on horseback wearing tin cans.
and now my question:
dear jon stewart, most noble king-lear-fool spokesman against american imperial politics of the asylum, destroyer of living room elephants, when oh when will you lead an expedition into the data mine?
urizenus
Nov 13th, 2004
wb hummie.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 13th, 2004
I’m not sure why you have to call Coco “cocobot” or identify her as a “contingent” when she is expressing a genuine opinion, not serving as a “bot” from some evil corporation.
I’ll watch the PBS special carefully, but I think I already see where you’re going with this Hum — evil corporations do monstrous, unspeakable things to us poor individuals while we’re not looking, and we need oh, I dunno, that buffoon Michael Moore to check all this out for us.
Why? We’re not stupid. When Citibank puts an ad on a bus shelter in this noveau vein of emotional branding and slickness, that says “Be Healthy and Wise, Let the Other Part Take Care of Itself” or some other yuppie-mondo-metrosexual kind of slogan that is supposed to make you think that you are so cool and hip you don’t even care about wealth, well, I get it. I get that what their agenda is, is to keep my money in their bank longer so they can spend it on adventures on the stockmarket. They purport to care about my quality of life with this series, which emphasizes living and not worrying about money, but what they really want is my money. Does anybody really fall of those bus ads? Well sure, but then, people fall for those letters from Nigerians, too.
Corporations are just entities with our neighbours, friends, relatives, and fellow citizens in them. That’s where they have jobs. They are fictions. To be sure, corporations are stupider than individuals in their behavior, and more coarse when it comes to violating human rights. But it’s not as if we are helpless.
Your thesis is that games like TSO or SL are mining all sorts of data about me — personal, emotional, even, data that they will use to narrowcast advertising to me. So? Am I so helpless and stupd that I can resist this? Have I gone out and bought anything because I play TSO or SL? Not. Just because there’s a McDonalds inside TSO (which nobody ever buys because the food doesn’t fill you up LOL) or because there’s somebody’s branding company or software or whatever for sale in SL doesn’t mean I buy it. I don’t. I just play the game.
I fail to see where the grave danger is to the fabric of society. However, I’ll watch PBS and hopefully be enlighted. Meanwhile, my worm-buster and trojan-catcher is going wild every time I visit this site, warning me of intruders. What kind of “personal data” is this very site mining, Humdog, doesn’t that make you wonder?
humdog
Nov 13th, 2004
prokofy
there is nothing i admire more than a grossly idealized over-simplification. thank you for providing one.
Cocoanut
Nov 13th, 2004
Good thing I checked this today.
Guess what: When I “defend” the TOS, I am not defending “the multi-national corporation’s simple need to harvest personal information from gamers either through the registration process or through in-game monitoring of user activity.”
I am defending the rules of the game, much as I would defend the rule in Monopoly that you are supposed to add houses to your properties evenly. (Unless everyone playing agrees otherwise.)
Or that if you make three strikes in softball, you are out. Or that you can’t move more than one square in one move in checkers (unless you’re jumping).
Easy, see.
When I defend the rules of a game – to which we have all agreed prior to playing the game – I expect the other players to have the good sportsmanship to play by those rules agreed upon.
In the case of TSO, the rules of the game are contained in its Terms of Service, and various other documents. Hence, I defend the TOS. I defend the concept of playing by the rules.
I will call playing by the rules “A”.
I will call defending the multi-national corporation’s simple need to harvest personal information from gamers either through the registration process or through in-game monitoring of user activity “B”.
You think A = B.
Your fallacy is assuming that everyone else (particularly me) also thinks that A = B.
A does not equal B as far as this cocobot is concerned.
coco
Mick Lite
Nov 13th, 2004
When I play softball we only get two strikes and you are out. 3 balls and you get walked… makes the game faster.
Urizenus
Nov 14th, 2004
OMG Mick! You cheater!!!!!
But now a confession: when I play chess with my daughter I take my Queen off the board. Lock me up and throw away the key!
Cocoanut
Nov 14th, 2004
“(Unless everyone playing agrees otherwise.)”
Did you miss that point, Uri?
I shouldn’t even have had to say that in the first place, but since I did, the least you could have done was read it.
coco
Mick Lite
Nov 14th, 2004
LOL, they arent my rules, its the NSA, ASA, and USSSA league rules. Right now its winter ball, so we are playing indoor, and since you only have 8 fielders on the field, you get the 3 strikes and 4 balls rules again.
ian
Nov 14th, 2004
haven’t we already gone threw this article in a different variation, with humdog’s conspiracy of data mining…
ian
Nov 14th, 2004
Humdog..
Is data mining really a bad thing? Whoever watches me complain and say what I like/dislike…can use that information to build a better game upon the items I bitch about. In the end, the product is something I can enjoy….so again, is data mining really a bad thing?
humdog
Nov 14th, 2004
i think i am charmed by the idea that there exist persons who are happy to sign up as serfs for the duchy of EA, and who will accept whatever restrictions the lord of the manner wishes to impose, in order to join the glorious and worshipful company of the sims online.
ian
Nov 14th, 2004
humdog, stop attempting to speak intelligently…you are ignorant and will never get over the fact that you think you’re always right, when you’re wrong. go back to salon, where your work is appreciated by conspiracy theory commies.
Cocoanut
Nov 14th, 2004
You know what, humdog, it’s just not that big a deal. I agree to all kinds of stuff every time I sign on to anything online. I agree to all kinds of stuff everytime I do banking or buy things with a credit card or join any rl organization.
The TSO stuff I agreed to is not onerous to me. None of the other online stuff I’ve agreed to has been onerous to me either. Nor are the agreements for the banking, the buying, or the organizations or anything else. If I don’t like the agreement, I either don’t sign on in the first place, or I get out of it.
I would not want to live in a housing development with very restrictive agreements. So I don’t. Ditto anything else that tries to tell me what to do too much, or which has goals I don’t agree with, or costs too much, etc.
The TOS of TSO is not onerous to me. I just play the game. So, while you may regard me as a serf, I don’t. And I didn’t agree to “whatever restrictions the lord of the manor wishes to impose” on me. I read the restrictions first, agreed to them, and went on to happily play the game.
But of course, you may see it however you like.
coco
Prokofy Neva
Nov 15th, 2004
Re: there is nothing i admire more than a grossly idealized over-simplification. thank you for providing one
Don’t blame the mirror if you have a crooked face.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 15th, 2004
Re: there is nothing i admire more than a grossly idealized over-simplification. thank you for providing one
Don’t blame the mirror if you have a crooked face.
urizenus
Nov 15th, 2004
>is data mining really a bad thing?
Sure is! But as long as you guys don’t mind…drill drill drill. mmm, more nuggets of Ian, DB, and Coco!
Woot! I got my own data mine!
Get out the head shriking potion hummie, we got work to do!
Cocoanut
Nov 15th, 2004
I have been talking about TOS in this thread, Uri, not data mining.
Both you and Humdog should refrain from putting words in other people’s mouths.
Humdog’s doing that is what caused me to comment in this thread in the first place. Now, twice, I have had to correct the words and thoughts you insist on attributing to me.
coco
ian
Nov 15th, 2004
Uri…I was presenting a question…you being a “professor” ( I would like to see what crudentials) of linguistics you should know.
I don’t like being spied on, but for god’s sake, I don’t tell my personal information in game…all they know is what i like and do not like.
humdog
Nov 15th, 2004
i like this statement lots:
“…i don’t tell my personal information in game…all they know is what i like and do not like…”
and of course when you got your sims account, you didn’t tell them your name or give them your credit card information etc etc etc. of course not. and they’re not smart enough to connect you to your account either, ian. is that what you think?
yep. got work to do. shrink heads. yum.
Cocoanut
Nov 16th, 2004
Y’all’s smug, superior attitude prevents good conversation about anything, and also prevents you learning anything.
coco
Prokofy Neva
Nov 16th, 2004
“..would like to see what crudentials”
Crudentials! Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaa. Maybe this isn’t a typo, but a wise neologism…
ian
Nov 16th, 2004
humdog, they don’t actually see your credit card, you dolt. it goes threw a secure server directly to your credit card company. the only thing that they can see is the last four digits, which is used to confirm you are you, when you call up.
urizenus
Nov 16th, 2004
one thing I got in spades is CRUDEntials, Ian.
Maria laVeaux
Nov 19th, 2004
Well said Coco, and Prokofy.
Someone, in talking to Prokofy in another thread, mentioned a Tin Foil Hat. From what i just read, the level of Paranoia demonstrated tends to clearly indicate to whom the tin foil hat should go.
The TOS is provided to regulate the game environment so we all have a more enjoyable experience In Game. The “Personal Information” is no more than is required for the service provider to determine that the player is the rightful account holder, and allows them to properly bill the account holder for services rendered.
The only ones who Really seem to find living under a TOS intolerable are those who would try to benefit most in the absence of one by Victimizing everyone within thier reach. These people try to cover their intent with a great deal of Pseudo-political Clap-Trap. or Psychobabble, but what it comes down to is, the rules don’t let them behave like Antisocial Jackasses, They view the TOS as against them, so they are against the TOS.
Maria
Ralph
Nov 19th, 2004
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humdog
Nov 19th, 2004
i think the point that people are missing here is that the collection of personal information in web-based applications is NOT limited to credit card numbers and addresses. behavior and language is tracked IN GAME. an individual’s behavior and language and communications are considered personal information and the TOS grants the corporation permission to collect that behavior, language, etc., information.
ian
Nov 19th, 2004
You mean, people are missing the point that YOU VIEW
urizenus
Nov 20th, 2004
yah but read the tos, it *does* grant the corp the power to mine that data, so I don’t see the objection to humdog here. Whether you think that is a good thing or a bad thing it is a thing that you sign away to EA.