Virtual Child Porn in Second Life
by Alphaville Herald on 09/12/04 at 1:13 am
Everyone knows that Child Pornography is illegal and everyone *should* know that it is wrong. But what about virtual child porn? — cases in which no real child is victimized in the making of the porn, but in which a child is represented as having sex with an adult. Or imagine an avatar that was designed to look like an eight year old and offered itself as an escort and sex slave. Second Life must now confront this issue. Sasami Wishbringer is an avatar modelled after a Japanese anime character named Sasami, who has the body of an eight year old, but is in fact (according to the story) closer to 708 years old (see, an adult — or that is the copout). This avatar is currently an Escort for The Edge, and is also a slave at Fantasy Slave Market, and participates in the auctions there. Sasami Wishbringer also sells hentai (anime porn) featuring Sasami in game. Should this be allowed?
The user profile for Sasami Wishbringer
Some of the Sasami hentai being sold in Second Life (portions of screenshot censored)
For sale in second life. (portions of screenshot censored)
For sale in second life. (portions of screenshot censored)
The door to Sasami’s slave quarters at Fantasy Slave Market
Poster on the door to Sasami’s slave quarters.
The holding pen and auction block for the slaves at Fantasy Slave Market in Second Life
Muirwen
Dec 9th, 2004
No, this shouldn’t under any circumstances be allowed. Besides the detestable character of (virtual) child pornography, it is very important for LL and SL to avoid even the slightest association with these kinds of practises.
Muirwen
Dec 9th, 2004
Having said that, I think LL should immediately enforce a permanent ban on this player for spreading child pornography. I don’t care if it is anime or not, and that the depicted child is an “adult” of 700+ years. Fact is that that is an easy and lame excuse to get excited about these sorts of things and the images don’t tell that part of the story. I really think this is appaling and will certainly issues an report to LL when I will see this stuff in SL.
ajdown@jp
Dec 9th, 2004
I agree, it’s sick and the user should be banned immediately.
However…. bestiality is also a ‘taboo’ subject, yet you have ‘furries’ in SL… although the players may be consenting adults it still represents human:animal sexual acts. Is this ‘less wrong’ than the avatar being a child? Interesting thought.
aj
Muirwen
Dec 9th, 2004
I agree bestiality is also a taboo subject, but strange as it seems, it is not outlawed in all countries (not even in all western countries). Child pornography is, though.
Thomas Smith
Dec 9th, 2004
This is fully legal and should be allowed. Child porn is illegal because it requires an actual child, and involved sexual acts with someone the state deems incapable of giving consent to sexual acts. Sasami Wishbringer’s player is an adult who can give consent, and apparently gives virtual consent quite often. You first posters aren’t even thinking with your upper brains. Muirwin even noted that she’s 700+, some 680 years past the modern age of consent.
SL would be legally protected and morally right in letting Sasami Wishbringer continue leading the second life she chose. As an adult playing an adult character, what she looks like when she engages in consensual acts of simulated pornography is irrelevent.
I would like to note here that while writing this, I had an in-game conversation with Sasami. She is a vindicitive little hypocrite who apparently doesn’t like being called out as the whore she chooses to be (as an escort), and she believes that this article is entirely the fault of someone who mentioned similar issues with her character the night before. Anyway,
PORNBOY IS LOVE
Shi-Of-The-Flaming-Tail
Dec 9th, 2004
Think most of the first posters are forgetting something.
It’s a character, played by an adult. Sure, it’s a weird kink, but IT’S NOT REAL. There’s no little Jurai princesses. All the art? Done by horny fanboys. It’s roleplaying. You remember roleplaying, don’t you?
What’s next? Should you ban anyone from going to Jesse because murder in the real world is illegal and wrong as well?
There’s a different between someone exploiting a real, living, breathing child for their own perverted desires, and someone who’s particular whim happens to be portraying a child in grown-up situations.
If any of you actually really TALKED to her, or played with her, you’d find out quite a few different things.
Second Life is basically like a visual MUCK. You come here to have fun.
Is she hurting anyone?
No.
Is there anything illegal being done?
No.
Just your tender little sensibilities. Get over it. I’m quite sure the rest of you have some dirty little perverted kink that you’d love to act out, but are so utterly ashamed of doing, for fear of having a similar reaction that you just displayed.
Hell. Long as no one is really hurt, and the parties involved are truely consensual and of age, what business is it of yours? Sure. You can say what you want, I grant you that. But clamoring for making it bannable, just because you are personally offended? Boy does John Ashcroft have a job for you.
As for the person who wrote this article? Bad form on posting exactly who it was. There is such a thing as privacy.
Once more..
It’s not REAL life.
It’s Second Life.
Cobalt
Dec 9th, 2004
Whether you approve of it or not, what Sasami decides to do with herself is her own business. She’s an adult, playing a fictional character. (If you can’t draw a line between fiction and reality, that’s your own problem)
Now, you may not like what she does, and you can fume about it in private all you like. However, what the author has done here is highly questionable. He has NOT posted an article about a subject (underage characters in adult situations on SL) but a public attack against a specific player – even going so far, as to post a screenshot of their profile info. (this could be taken as a call for harassment of Sasami – a violation of SL’s AUP in and of itself)
If you want to discuss the topic – discuss the TOPIC. Leave the profile screenshots out of it.
Ian
Dec 9th, 2004
my question is:
how did uri come upon this?
Prokofy Neva
Dec 9th, 2004
This story reminds me of the story of the “good burgher” of Bavaria who first saw one Jew hauled off to the camps and didn’t say anything, then the second Jew, then the 10th, and he began to feel a little uncomfortable, and then by the 157th, when the entire Jewish population of his village was gone, he said, “Wait a minute, isn’t this getting a bit much?”
What, hellfire clubs with 666 Satans and BDSM, strap-ons, fight clubs, hardcore porn and sex and violence can all be celebrated, especially if dressed in a sharp straw boater hat, but when it comes to anime kiddie porn, eek, this is horrible! Call the cops! Reminds me of somebody who had a Church of Mephistophles and kidded around with whip-cracking mistresses and witches, then tried to get the game company to take him seriously when he began to bleat about child prostitution.
Everyone knows what I think about BDSM and child porn. So what do I think about this particular story? It think it’s abominable and this player should be negrated out the wazoo. Should she be allowed to do what she wants in the privacy of her own home or private members-only club? Of course. Is this the form of civilization I want to promote? Of course not. So I would make every effort to avoid her business, if she had a public business, to encourage zoning and encouraging others to avoid her, and to negrate her and her business and incite others to negrate her and her business. Should the game company intervene? Depends on whether they view themselvs as a private club of subcribers which can set any policy it likes and not face government interference, or whether they regard themselves as occupying what amounts to a public space and a public utility, and therefore have some social responsibility to the public interest, and should create some kind of standards and regulations concerning vulgarity and crime, virtual though it may be. This game company ought to give some consideration to what it means to roll out a teen grid, even one separate from adults, when their adult grid is overrun with prostitution, BDSM, public lewdity, etc. etc. It’s a business reputation liability for them.
I can’t help wondering if this anime avatar looked more like a real human child whether the reaction wouuld be different. The fact that it looks like an anime cartoon can make it more of a joke. I personally have always been troubled by the anime look because it seems to me to reflect some kind of Western cultural hegeomony consciously and unconsciously absorbed by Orientals in a strange transmogrification of styles that winds up looking painfully kitsch, so that they make “cute” characters with round eyes, freckles, and pigtails rather than honourable characters with their own Asian features. It’s easier to make a child porn star out of “the other,” isn’t it? I’ve seen numerous dance contests where female avatars are dressed up as Catholic school girls with short plaid skirts, and everyone thinks it’s funny. Negrate it if you think it’s not.
*Glad that Uri has packed his headlines with sensational pervy stories about strap-ons and kiddie diddlers so that the tabloidy factually incorrect story about the Second Coming of Dyerbrook is now well buried below the fold.*
Timothy Manray
Dec 9th, 2004
I find the photos disgusting. I don’t approve of the practice. BUT, let’s keep some things in mind:
1. In other parts of SL one avatar can murder another. That’s as bad as child porno, certainly, but it’s okay in SL because it isn’t real. Neither is Sashimi real.
2. The value of SL is freedom to be someone we’re not. It’s good some activities can only take place in mature areas. Perhaps there should be a XXXXX area for the wildest/worst/whatever stuff, but once you start censoring, there’s no knowing where it will lead.
3. I LOVE this world, but will be out like a shot if censorship is introduced. It will be the end of this program.
My email is SLWorld2@aol.com
Muirwen
Dec 9th, 2004
Well, to all the ones who “condone” this kinf of behaviour: what do you think the consensus will be if the big news networks should get to see this. It will be the end of SL as we know it.
Sasami
Dec 9th, 2004
My response is very simple..it is as follows:
—Harrassment complaint to SL Support—
Greetings,
As you may already be aware, I am being subject to harassment based on my character in game by a user in game named: Urizenus Sklar, who runs a semi official site titled ‘The Second Life Herald’ found here: http://www.alphavilleherald.com/
The article in question is here: http://www.alphavilleherald.com/archives/000559.html N
ot only did this user post this article without my permission nor any contact with me whatsoever, they posted screenshots of my player profile, player name and presumptual information about my playstyle without verifying any of the data with me personally. The article is in essence a call to harass me by any in game using the ‘semi official name’ of Second Life (see users comments on the article for evidence of that).
Regardless of that particular user’s opinion of how I portray my character or participate in the game I have violated no laws of the United States of America nor have I violated any part of the EULA. The ‘reporter’ has violated several, including posting presumptuous and derogatory comments about me on a semi official website. The bare fact is he should not be allowed to post my user name / profile information and invite people here to harass me, based on the auspices of being a ‘semi official site’.
Summation: The site and user is using the name of Second Life to defame and harass me even though I am doing nothing illegal in how I play. I have in fact contacted that user and he has stated he will do as he pleases as my information here is ‘public access’ and that even though he insinuates behavior on my part, he need not be factual or fair, as it is ‘his site’. This I can understand, but it should not be using information from here nor the name of SL to promote harassment against another player.
Thank you for your time.
-Sasami Wishbringer
—end paste—
Have a nice day.
Kurt
Dec 9th, 2004
I would first like to say any sane person would never condone child pornography.
Most sex abusers were also abused as kids. They don’t need hate, they need psychological treatment from a licensed Psychologist specializing in sexual addiction and disfunction.
With that said, I want to point out this article isn’t just questioning if child pornography should be allowed. It’s also “begging the question”, what is child pornography. Who definition should be used. Mine? yours? the authors? What about the us governments. Or master and johnson, the leader in us sexual research.
Should midget sex count as child pornography? what about people of legal age dressed up in school uniforms? What about people who call their boy friends “dady”, or “suger dady”? Some of these may seem ridiculous to you, but some one else may consider the same thing as child pornography.
On-top of that the author has violated some ones else rights by publishing an article about a specific person with protecting their identity. One wrong dose not make another wrong ok. I would hope the second life herald would act professional. This seems more like an attack then a real article.
I know I would never want any one to publish a negative article about me. No matter what the subject is: sex, land, money, a conversation. Witch is why I can’t condone the heralds action. Because individuals can’t defend them selves against publications. I am shocked and dismayed that the herald has show such irresponsibility.
Not to mention why they are publishing the pictures, including nudity, when them they self consider it offensive.
And I hope other feel the same way, because recently the same thing happened over at another sl blog. The blog in question seek to under stand sl through the use of the scientific process, but they published private conversations between them self and another avatar with out his permission. The article in question contained the avatar name. The conversation had been edited to fit the authors view point, and caused the avatar quoted out of context to received a massive amount of negative feed back.
The article was over a land dispute, but you wouldn’t be able to tell that by reading the published artical. Some thing like a tree on the edge of a property line blowing into another person house. Or some one blocking some one else’s view.
Later after the avatar in question had a chance to defend him self, and people had a chance to see both sides of situation it turned out to be a completely different situation then what was original presented by on the blog. But the damage had already been done to said avatar.
Curious
Dec 9th, 2004
“This avatar is currently an Escort for The Edge, and is also a slave at Fantasy Slave Market, and participates in the auctions there. Sasami Wishbringer also sells hentai (anime porn) featuring Sasami in game. Should this be allowed?”
I’m just curious, but what part of this is “presumptuous and derogatory”. It’s all true, since you have advertisements for all of this up as your services. It’s like saying that it’s presumptuous to assume that a person who advertises being a Doctor, has a degree that says he’s a doctor, and has practiced being a Doctor, is in fact a doctor. It’s not presumptuous at that point, it’s true. As far as I can tell the only thing in this article is what you’ve shown to the public. If you didnt want people to know this, you wouldn’t have a little house in Slave city, and you wouldn’t have an advertisement up in the edge for your services as an escort.
I don’t agree with Urizenus putting up specific names, but I also dont agree that any harrasment persay has been done. He’s a reporter, and he reports on things that are unique in SL. As far as I can tell, your taste for young girls is one of a kind here.
Sasami
Dec 9th, 2004
Well Curious for one, presuming an Escort is about ‘sex’ and not about ‘roleplay’ or making someone feel welcome at th eclub or to even greet them.
In general to presume without interviewing me as to how I played or having any contact with me whatsoever. The person didn’t to my knowledge bother to see what I played or even how..they merely took another ill informed person’s viewpoint and made an article attacking me without any discussion with me.
Not only is that presumptive, but it violates the EULA.
I think I have said my peace on this…
PS: oh and incidently, merely because I as an adult like to ROLEPLAY a ‘young girl’ does not mean I have a ‘taste’ for them as you try to insultingly insinuate.
urizenus
Dec 9th, 2004
Seriously, Sasami, all the info comes straight from your profile and products which you advertise (note: ADVERTISE) in game under your name.
Your avi DOES represent an 8 yr old anime girl.
Your avi IS an Edge Escort
Your avi IS a Fantasy Slave
Your avi IS selling (unless the Lindens have removed it) the hentai porn under your name
It’s not against the EULA to publish your public bio, and information which you yourself make public.
You should stop chasing around SL in the wake of this neg rating innocent people who you think fed me the story or put me up to the story, and you should stop harassing Mentors into acting against me. Your hysterical reaction to this is not working for you.
Oh, and about your plan to get me banned…
Given that tomorrow is the one year anniversary of my banning from TSO and given that that banning propelled the Herald to the front page of the New York Times, well may I just say… oh no! please don’t throw me in the briar patch!
And not that anyone will notice or care, but I didn’t say that your activities were illegal or even wrong. I said that they raised questions which second life must now confront. should your behavior be allowed? should you be allowed to sell your Sasami hentai porn in the game. I haven’t given my opinion on the matter.
Face it, everything said in the article is not just factual (and nonjudgmental), but is information placed in the public realm by you yourself. You have only yourself to blame.
Sasami
Dec 9th, 2004
Apparently Urizenus, you apparently haven’t read the EULA very well..
Let me quote for you:
From the Big 6:
#2. Harassment
Given the myriad capabilities of Second Life, harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, constitutes unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors, or is otherwise likely to cause annoyance or alarm is Harassment.
#4. Disclosure
Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Lives. Sharing personal information about a fellow Resident –including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, and real-world location beyond what is provided by the Resident in the First Life page of their Resident profile is a violation of that Resident’s privacy. Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums.
Hope that helps familiarize yourself with what you violated. Have a nice day now.
urizenus
Dec 9th, 2004
I just reread the article up top and am every more baffled by your response, Sasami. Did you even read what I wrote?
“This avatar is currently an Escort for The Edge, and is also a slave at Fantasy Slave Market, and participates in the auctions there. Sasami Wishbringer also sells hentai (anime porn) featuring Sasami in game. Should this be allowed?”
Nothing was stated or implied what you as an escort/slave do or would like to do, and nothing is said about it being right or wrong. It was framed as a discussion for debate. I have to say, however, that your hysterical reacion to this is really interesting to me.
urizenus
Dec 9th, 2004
Sasami, you need a reading comprehension course. Consider this:
#4. Disclosure
Residents are entitled to a reasonable level of privacy with regard to their Second Lives. Sharing personal information about a fellow Resident –including gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, and real-world location beyond what is provided by the Resident in the First Life page of their Resident profile is a violation of that Resident’s privacy. Remotely monitoring conversations, posting conversation logs, or sharing conversation logs without consent are all prohibited in Second Life and on the Second Life Forums.”
Gee whiz, I don’t recall revealing your gender, religion, age, marital status, race, sexual preference, and real-world location beyond what is provided by the Resident in the First Life page of their Resident profile. To the contrary, I didn’t even reveal the RL info you provided on the first life page of your Resident profile. But gee, now that you’ve pointed out to me that I CAN reveal this info, maybe I’ll just go ahead and reveal that information, which you only deleted today. Notice that I COULD do it and not be in violation of the EULA.
Oh and by the way, I don’t recall publishing any chat logs without your permission.
So given that I didn’t publish any RL info about you and never published any chat logs with you, precisely what on God’s green earth are you talking about.
Seriously. Read the EULA slowly. Read my story slowly. Calm down. Or not. Fly off the handle. Raise a stink. It’s all the same to me.
Yuki Callahan
Dec 9th, 2004
you guys are such prudes. I know Sasami personally and she(hm hm hmm)is a good person. Uri you are a friggin pervert for gods sake I have seen you plenty of times. You act like Second Life is your personal child.
Why dont they get rid of your little buddy Toy LaFollete? DOes she participate in the same practice with a child avie and her bdsm lifestyle. Back off Sasami, IRL he can kick your ass anyways.
-Keiko
Curious
Dec 9th, 2004
Oh yes. I think i’ll go to the Edge right now and hire an Escort at, what is it? 400L$ an hour so we may have a friendly chat and they can show me around. Escorts are people who sell their bodies, that’s a fact. Look it up in the dictionary. They’re not welcoming services and they’re not tour guides.
And you proved that Urizenus is innocent of harrasment by posting that Sasami. Since everything he posted here is either a part of your profile, or obviously public information. And the question of whether Child Porn is wrong seems more directed to your Vendor displays then anything else.
Rosalita
Dec 9th, 2004
Urizenus. I only have a couple of things to say for you. First, you seem to be an educated man that is well respected by your academic peers. With that in mind, your arguement is valid, but the attack is not valid. Given that from your quote:
Given that tomorrow is the one year anniversary of my banning from TSO and given that that banning propelled the Herald to the front page of the New York Times, well may I just say… oh no! please don’t throw me in the briar patch!
Your a glory hound seeking to just become just another tabloid trash reporter. Yes, that is name calling.
With that aside, the personal attack against Sasami is unwarrented and in this case, very unprofessional. As an author for this online web forum, you should of had enough sense to taken this to private matters with the Lindens instead of violating the Sasami’s rights within the SL game itself.
ian
Dec 9th, 2004
Yuki Callahan, I enjoyed the first part of your statement (partly because it’s true). Uri don’t act like you are some perfect babysitter of SL. You haven’t done anything as bad as child porn (that we know of), but I am sure your “male spanker” isn’t used as a walking stick. The fact is you might not of violated the ELUA/ToS, but you did piss off this girl by producing this article. You also knew this would spawn attacks by other people who think s/he is a degenerate.
ian
Dec 9th, 2004
*laughs*
Sasami
Dec 9th, 2004
Posting information about me is a techinical violation of 4, specifically the 1st line, since you did this all without my express permission. Reading comphrension indeed.
Now as to ‘legality’ as Curious seems to insinuate…do try keeping up with law..such as here:
http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/00-795.ZS.html
What does all that legalise boil down to? Simply thus: None of the imagery I had on my vendors violated any law and was perfectly legal.
Neither is my playstyle forbidden in game. Here is the sad thing this article forgets:
It is a game..it is NOT REAL. I am NOT a child and do not interact with children. I am an ADULT engaging with other ADULTS in legal consensual ROLEPLAY.
And as I have already said, the article constitutes harrassment by a user of said game. It is a personal attack diguised as a vehicle for discussion as blatently obvious as the question: “When did you stop beating your wife?”
Nuff said.
Curious
Dec 9th, 2004
“oh and incidently, merely because I as an adult like to ROLEPLAY a ‘young girl’ does not mean I have a ‘taste’ for them as you try to insultingly insinuate”
Well. Maybe, but if I met a guy who wears a NASCAR shirt, a NASCAR hat, has a house full of pictures of NASCAR drivers, and a bed shaped like a race car. Do you think it’s safe to assume that he likes NASCAR?
Just as you roleplay a little girl, have a vendor full of little girls having sex, and have that room of yours with another little girl touching herself on it. I’m going to assume you like little girls, and I guess there’s a slight possibility that that assumption is totally wrong, but it’s extremely unlikely.
urizenus
Dec 9th, 2004
Which right was violated exactly? All I did was repost information that he himself made public.
If you post information in public you should not think you have the right to control who sees that information.
And those who call this an attack on poor Sasami have yet to point out one falsehood or any claim (by me) that what he was doing was wrong. All I did was ASK THE QUESTION as to whether this was wrong. But apparently some of you consider this a taboo question to even raise. You think Sasami’s behavior should not even be questioned?
I disagree. I am not in a position to judge, but I am in a postion to ask whether it is right or wrong, and I will continue to ask that question.
Rosalita
Dec 9th, 2004
Urizenus, how would you feel if somebody in particular, posted about your past exploits, your profile and your behavior? It seems plenty of people here have enough dirt on you to bring up the question, why are you throwing stones in a glass house?
Debra Messing
Dec 9th, 2004
My sentiments exactly Rosalita. He always likes to mention how he is in a paper or tries to kiss up on a game. I think he is trying to get attention because he lacks a social life(I am sorry, I need to clarify this. Not the kind you get from your little Linden buddies or Scammers or virtual prostitutes, but the type of interaction you get with people in the real world). I mean, have you ever seen his photo, not easy on the eyes I assure you.
He is not proffesional, that I am sure of. I myself, have always cherished the fact of how humble and modest I am, it is always better to sell yourself short than higher I say. However, he practices the complete opposite of my mantra. And he is a hypocrite!
Ok now this is child porn, but what are one of his three stories about? Either one of his brothel owning friends, how prostitutes are treated unfairly, or about cyber sex and the freaks that get off on that.
He is , as you said Rosalita and they are the perfects words to describe him, a sleezy glory hound, who kisses ass one minute and turns for others to kiss his.
Yuki Callahan
Dec 9th, 2004
Thanks Ian ~^
I would love to meet you in SL again, just like old times ^^
Bennu
Dec 9th, 2004
Food for thought Uri. Pulled from http://www.webster.com
Libel: (n)
2 a : a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression
b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt
2) : defamation of a person by written or representational means
Last I checked, Libel is a crime.
Bennu
Dec 9th, 2004
Taken from the website http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.301.html
PUNISHMENT FOR DEFAMATORY LIBEL.
301. Every one who publishes a defamatory libel is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years. [R.S., c.C-34, s.265.]
Gina Fatale
Dec 9th, 2004
read the article and read all the comments stil dont see what Uri has done here illegally? Everything in that article is everything that was in this characters profile, so…you don’t want people knowing then dont put it in your profile. Sounds like an easy solution to me….
Curious
Dec 9th, 2004
Well, if you’d all get off throwing personal attacks at Urizenus, you can think about the ORIGINAL subject.
And that is, that whether or not this should be allowed, and when it comes down to it, Second Life is owned by Linden Labs, and therefore you have absolutely no rights as per what you display in game. Linden Labs has the right to refuse anyone for any reason.
And considering from the link Sasami posted earlier, that the clause where virtual child pornography was written in as being against the law, and later just BARELY taken out because the wording was too vague. I think that LL is not going to want to have to deal with something that is so close to against the law that it was actually written in as illegal, then held later on.
Now this article isn’t really about Sasami and it certainly isn’t about Urizenus. So personal character in this sense is moot. You want to bring up that Sasami is a “good person” That’s fine, but it has nothing to do with the subject at hand, nor does Urizenus’ alledged sub-conscious reasons for posting this.
Like I said, I don’t agree with Uri posting her name, and the only reason I feel that she came up in the article is because she’s the only SL example of the topic.
P.S.: This isnt libel. Libel would suggest saying it in a negative light. Nothing negative was brought up in the article, about the most negative thing you can get is “Should this be allowed?” Which is not negative, but rarely a question intended to spark debate. If you can find a court in America that could convinct Uri for this article, then I could convinct anyone who writes an article meant to provoke debate, or writes even their opinions.
Welcome to Communism, Comrade Bennu.
urizenus
Dec 9th, 2004
Still waiting for someone to point out a falsehood in the article.
Still also waiting for someone to point out where I said that Sasami is doing something illegal or even wrong. All I did was repost info that he himself made public.
But please yes, let’s do bring on the world’s first avatar libel case! Woot!
Bennu
Dec 9th, 2004
Or for those wanting the LEGAL defninition of libel. Pull up the listing for ‘libel’ on dictionary.law.com and see what it says.
It’s rather long and spammy, so I’ll be nice and not re-post it here.
Rosalita
Dec 9th, 2004
Gina, what he did was post specific examples of a single person. If he was indeed trying to be a true reporter on the subject in question, “Virtual Child Porn in Second Life”, He would of done his homework and posted an actual story, rather than specifically targeting a single person. This report could and should of been done with more examples without names. What he did was name Sasami, included her profile, and targeted her vendors.
With that in mind, this turns to a personal attack rather than a valid newspaper artical. This is slander and as Bennu said, Libel against Sasami.
Truly, if this was a valid artical, Mr Urizenus would of written it as a general and posted the concern without giving names and biased opinions. The validility of the new york times doesn’t mean much in this day and age as he wants it to be.
Bennu
Dec 9th, 2004
Specifically the point which I am referring to is the following in the defenition of libel:
b (1) : a statement or representation published without just cause and tending to expose another to public contempt
I think we can all agree that this article was written to present Sasami Wishbringer in a negative light, and defenetly to bring Her/Him/It under public ridicule and contempt.
If that was not your intent, then please take -this- article down, and re-work it to not mention names. I know for a FACT that Sasami is not alone, rather just the most prominant of this group. I have in the past seen other ‘Lolita’ artwork on SL. I will not say where, to preserve their inherent right to privacy, but the fact remains that Sasami is, in my opinion, being put up as a sacrificial lamb in the issue here.
When I dont refrence an outside website or source, these are strictly my opinions and should not be taken as FACT, merely my own educated and rational view.
I guess the concept of ‘live and let live’ is well and trully dead. I shall mourn its passing.
urizenus
Dec 9th, 2004
Rosalita, if you are saying that you have other examples of people doing this then please do share the info with us.
And yes, you are so right, REAL media only publishes about general things and never about individuals. That’s why they report about some presidents in general that have general sexual relations with a general class of interns, and why they only talk about general baseball players using steroids in general, and etc.
Do you even *read* the newspaper or watch the news? In any case, I’m not interested in your ideas of how or why journalism is or should be abstract and even less concerned with whether this is journalism or not. If you don’t like what I do, stop reading.
Curious
Dec 9th, 2004
Unless someone actually plans on trying to convict Urizenus for Libel (which would ultimately be a waste of time and money, because i’ll tell you right now it’d come out as not guilty unless you had a bribed jury or a REALLY bad lawyer), then stop mentioning it. Nothing was negative in the article, only if you take it as negative, and the only reason it seems to me that Sasami was mentioned is because she is the most prominant, that is the only person i’ve ever seen that has made it public (again everything that’s been said here has been public information).
So stop trying to deflame Urizenus’ character and start addressing the real issue.
Linden Labs has dealt with virtual child pornography in the past, and will deal with it again, from what I understand her vendors are being dealt with by LL.
JoJo McBlow
Dec 9th, 2004
‘Tisn’t libel to gather and publish publicly available facts. Nor is it wrong to ask questions about what a game, social institution, or society should allow – to try and clarify our chosen limits.
If anything, I’d say this article is guilty of being a bit brief and, thusly, coming off as heavy handed. And naturally, using someone’s name without consulting them is a bit ungentlemanly.
But is it really that great of an offense?
I’m no second life veteran, but within minutes of logging in I was bombarded by what I can only call pornography. If mentioning that there’s another sort of it been sighted in the game invites insult, there must be a rediculous tension between those who want the porn and those who don’t, or those who want some porn but want badly to be able to denounce the rest – and I’d say this is a story of just as much journalistic worth.
Maria LaVeaux
Dec 9th, 2004
I read some of the Above, and i will probably read the rest later, I just wish to Clarify something before this continues.
Someone brought up My toy.
“Why dont they get rid of your little buddy Toy LaFollete? DOes she participate in the same practice with a child avie and her bdsm lifestyle. ”
toy is NOT a child.
Her AV is Not a child (Having seen her in a state of Undress, I can assure you she is quite Adult).
In RL, toy is not tall, she likes herself small.
In SL, she has exagerated her shortness, but she is Most definatly NOY a child,, Never claims to be a child,, Never behaves like a child,(My Calling her “My Baby” in game is a term of endearment, Not an Indication of age. and anyone who speaks to her Knows she is an Adult.
This AV at the centre of the controversy is, By Uri’s own article 708 years old. definatly OVER the age of Majority. The fact she is small seems to be more a matter of her being a Midget, rather than a child. I Understand the concerns here, But this character seems to fall into a grey area. The fact that someone does not grow to be six foot one, doesn’t mean they are not an adult.
Height is Not an Indicator of age. and before someone brings it up, Nor is the development (Or lack of development) in the Mammery department.
If she is small, Professes her age to be Over 21, and in addition ACTS as someone over the age of 21, then i would have to support the claim her AV is not a child.
I think i would wait for the Law, or the Lindens at least, to decide on this one.
Maria.
Rosalita
Dec 9th, 2004
It isn’t my idea’s on journalism. Now I am in no way an expert on the subject, but I do know that when a media source does an artical on a person, that can be negative, or even bring bad publicity, such as tabloid behavior. There is at least permission from those who are named. Every name that is mentioned in a newspaper, news story, or such like media, has the consent of said person.
Now to bring up something of you. You youself say your a professor in “Dept. of Philosophy and Department of Linguistics” at the University of Michigan.
I’m fairly sure you have access to Journalism Law and Ethics Guidelines. If not, here is an artical by an esteemed journalism expert.
http://www.justicejournalism.org/crimeguide/chapter06/chapter06.html
I’ll let you decide if you have broken any of those ethics.
Jessica
Dec 9th, 2004
Id just like to add my two cents here. I dont think this should be allowed. I skiped over most of these comments, but the ones that i did read kept mentioning the fact that this girl in question is “roleplaying” as this anime child character. Fine whatever, thats gross but whatever. For someone who doesnt know the background information on the “168 year old” anime girl, this sure does look like kiddy porn.
urizenus
Dec 9th, 2004
Thanks for letting me decide. Meanwhile, I’m STILL waiting for someone to
1) point out one falsehood in the article
2) point out one sentence where I am critical of Sasami
tapping foot
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drumming fingers
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still waiting…
Ava Eldritch
Dec 9th, 2004
This is ridiculous. Uri has attacked no one. He has brought the question of child porn into focus. Its not a stretch. The character is child-like. I didnt post until now because i wasnt sure how safe i would feel discussing this particular topic. My Avis have always “appeared” adult. But, many can argue i display very child-like behavior at times. Am i subconsciously rping incestous deviation or am i naturally exploring my feminine side. Im not so sure the lines are black and white on this. And i wouldnt apologize even if everyone found my behavior obscene. Because ultimately consenting adults blah blah . . but i digress . . i did not see Uri’s article as an attack on Sasami. This person will have to deal with the consequences of his or her own decisions in game and in rl. Youre trying to chastize Uri for bring it to people’s attention. Get over it. He has broken no rules. And, in truth you owe him a thank you. Only by discussing these topics openly in a forum such as this can we begin to accept or understand or even learn about alternative gaming lifestyles. You do a diservice to the gaming community when you spam these forums with your accusations against Uri. Lets get back on topic or get the fuk off the pot and move on. This is becoming tedious . .
Rosalita
Dec 9th, 2004
All I’m saying Urzenus is simply this. I’m not accusing you of misrepresenting the information. I have said that repeatedly. You keep dodging the issues of what i’m bringing up. What I am saying is how you went about to report this story, which is unethical and extremly biased. It resembles the stories I have seen against the Gay and lesbian communities by a few city and stage newspapers.
You fassion yourself as an amature journalist and it shows.
urizenus
Dec 9th, 2004
tapping foot
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drumming fingers
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still waiting…
Artemis Fate
Dec 9th, 2004
Okay. I’ve finally not been able to keep away, and i’m going to add a statement here.
If you want to talk about deflaming character, then it’s what Sasami has been doing to me. I’m an honest person, and usually when I feel some way about a person I tell them rather to lie about it. I met Sasami once and was very nice to her, I never noticed the groups, I even told her little tidbits on gameplay. So later I show up at the edge and I see on the wall “SasamiSubbin” which is a picture of Sasami and a touch link to her escort prices. I think, hey that’s weird a little girl escort (and dont pull that 708 shit on me, she even says “A young girl stands before you” and “in the blossom of her physical maturity” in her profile, that’s not something you say about a 708 year old). But I ignore it, I dont seek her out and I dont IM her. Later on I see her talking to a friend of mine, and after a while, I mention it to her, and that I felt that to me that children or a children figure used in that sense is morally offensive to ME. She goes completely nuts, starts saying it’s none of my business, that I shouldnt force myself on her, and after some more of her insulting me she mutes me. So as I often do, I talk to friends about the bad experience to make me feel better and get my friend’s support. Some of them tell me some more stuff about her, and I find this Slave City place with her vendor, which was even worse than her av’s ethics. (Incidentally my name appears at the bottom of the last picture in Slave City saying hmmm, I dont know who took that picture, but it must not have been Urizenus, because I didnt see him there)
Later on this article gets posted and I find out about it, I check it out and think that this is going to be a controversal screaming drama issue. But it’s formed in a Debate style, so I talk to friends about it again, we have a long and interesting debate on whether or not kiddy porn hentai should be okay, and most of them say yes, while I say no. Eventually I suddenly get neg rated and Sasami shows up, and goes off on me, saying that the article is my fault entirely, even going as far to say that I was the cause of all her neg ratings, even the ones she got before I met her. She even said after asked by a friend if she was going to just insult me or if she was going to talk to Urizenus, that she “hadnt even planned on it”. Of course, why go to the source when you can attack some random person who spoke their mind. She was obviously angry to the point of not thinking straight (and really, I would be too), but she was taking it out on any one and everyone. All of my friends who were having a civil discussion were subjected to her insulting them for their beliefs and ideas, and I most of all was called the “Mastermind” behind this all. I managed to keep as polite as possible despite how angry she was making me, I never once insulted her, despite how many insults she threw at me. Since then she IMed me saying how I was a liar and had everything to do with this article, I told her to stop and that I was considering it abuse.
Just today she IMed me again saying I was a liar again after she noticed that my name was on the bottom of the picture. If she IMs me one more time i’m going to file an abuse report, and unlike her, I actually have a case of abuse.
I’m sick of all the paranoid drama she’s thrown my way, and i’m sick of all the baseless accusations and totally wild and illogical statements she’s made towards me in game and here.
Face it Sasami, I had nothing to do with this article nor your neg ratings, it’d be nice and easy to blame everything on the last person you didnt like but life isnt that simple.
I think what Sasami put up is moraly offensive, and that’s my opinion. If you disagree, then i’d like a CIVIL conversation about it. This is my real SL name and my real E-mail address.
But if you want to talk about someone who got abused and grieved. It was me.
Ava Eldritch
Dec 9th, 2004
If you dont like Uri’s journalistic style then dont read his articles. Why are you here? You should thank him for makin this forum available to you. Ingrates. Get back on topic or fuck off.