Illuminating SL’s Spiritual Side
by Alphaville Herald on 22/08/05 at 9:18 pm
story and photograph by Buttery Shortbread
Avatars of all denominations and spiritual beliefs have a new place to worship in Second Life, at the Interfaith Temple, built only about a month ago by Athel Richelieu, who is not yet out of his teens in his first life (though old enough for SL proper, to be sure).
The beautiful, pure white marble monument he built rises from the sim of Ambulyx. Inside this simple yet very functional worship center is the Ray of Golden Light, which, to myself at least, symbolizes universal spiritual illumination.
I observed out loud that it seemed a bit unusual for someone so young to be so involved with religious pursuits. “I feel more and more in my age bracket are becoming open to spirituality and bringing it into their lives,” Athel said, “though yes, perhaps it is unusual in the United States.”
When asked whether his temple was geared toward the New Age movement, Athel said, “Ahh no, not New Age. I would consider it to be for all faiths, though I would say there is an emphasis on mysticism and inner peace. Mysticism, finding God or Spirit within, is a part of most all major religions and cultures. Hence the meditation pillows, and such.”
“My personal spirituality is very open,” Athel continued, “though right now I feel my personal spiritual teacher and Guru I am following is Mata Amritanandamayi or Amma, a worldwide recognized Saint in the Hindu religion though embracing all. She has spoken at the United Nations, and has followers such as a former US Senator and Yolanda King, Dr. Martin Luther King’s daughter. I would say my life centers quite a bit around spirituality. In my first life I have an altar in my room.”
Athel estimates that the temple receives perhaps several visitors a day, but he is currently not often at the sim. “I am surprised by the interest it has received in such a short time. I will come here randomly and it seems like people visit often. There are some who like to stay and just feel the presence.” One avatar who was visiting during our interview, FarindaFlyingdove Talamasca, mentioned that she likes to visit the sim several times a day.
Athel says would like to be able to hold daily services, though realistically his goal is set for three or four per week. He does not preside over the gatherings except to lead prayer and moderate to keep discussion topics on track. He considers himself as much a visitor to the temple as any other member of SL.
Given those ambitions, I asked whether he hoped to expand to building other churches in other sims. “I do hope to possibly build shrines in the future in other sims,” he said, “but these will most likely be focused on more my personal spirituality and things I feel need focus, rather than Interfaith.”
The temple is also available for weddings, committment ceremonies, memorials or candlelight vigils for peace, you name it. Those who wish to book the site can bring their own items for and someone to conduct the event, or request Athel’s services. There is no cost for that or for use of the sim.
And with the holidays just ahead, Athel hopes that Interfaith Temple will serve to host a number of celebrations of all manner of spirituality. Be sure to get your reservation in soon!
Miraren Firefly
Aug 23rd, 2005
Hey Athel, you rock!
Just sayin’, in case you had forgotten.
-Mira =^o^=
RB
Aug 23rd, 2005
The only gods you will be worshiping in SL are the Lindens. lol.
- RB.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 25th, 2005
I’m all for religion, multiple religions, religious study, etc. I have everything from a Buddhist shrine in FREE TIBET to a Catholic Church in Champlaign called “Notre Dame de Cyberie” lol. I sponsor church and sacred space construction in my rentals empire. I’ve held events on “what is sacred” encouraging people to discuss and bring articles and so on.
What Athel is doing is very important, and I encourage it — if indeed it is what it says it is, which is a genuinely open, exploratory space for spirituality.
Just because Athel is smart, a nice guy, and only 19, however, doesn’t mean he’s free from a challenge from me : ) I know Athel to be very thoughtful and intelligent and earnest. However, the people that organize and purvey cults that get people like Athel involved aren’t always that way and have a hidden agenda.
I have no idea who “Amma” is or whether this claim that she is a “world-wide recognized Hindu saint” is accurate — not knowing anything about Hinduism I’ve got a healthy dose of skepticism about any human being who calls themselves a saint *while still a mortal on this planet* LOL.
There’s no better place to spread cults than on the Internet, and especially in a morpeg like SL. Cults thrive horribly in SL, it’s sad to watch, really.
One of the signs of a cult is their claim to be “universal” when they aren’t really, and to create fake entrees for people under the guise of “general discussion” and “open to all” when they aren’t really, so that all bears testing. Another is to line up fake credentials that will impress people. The idea that someone has “spoken at the UN” is about as fake a credential as they come. Hell, I’ve spoken at the UN numerous times and I’m nobody special. Any idiot who can gain access to the thousands of non-governmental groups with UN consultative or roster status can get a day pass and come in the door and speak at some NGO meeting and say they’ve “spoken at the UN”. They can even get on the speakers’ list at one of those mass cattle calls the UN puts on like the Dept of Public Info NGO conferences and even claim they’ve “spoken to ambassadors”. It’s as phoney as a three-dollar bill.
Another feature that is particularly designed to play on Americans is the invocation of some icon like Martin Luther King. I have no idea whether Yolanda really follows this “saint” — often such “saints” get a famous figure to come once to a prayer breakfast and then for ever after claim that connection, which is a false endorsement. Yolanda isn’t without her critiques publicly.
Anyway, all this is by way of introducing a healthy dose of skeptism and reality check on any effort to purvey a cult in SL. Go read http://www.rickross.com and get to know the signs of these kinds of cults that sweep up a lot of young people into them. It’s wrong to take a young person’s quest for spirituality and enslave them to some egomaniac.
Athel Richelieu
Aug 25th, 2005
A few statements……
First of all, the Interfaith Temple has very little to do with my personal spirituality, and has no pictures or connection to Amma.
I was surprised when I read that they included my comments about my personal spiritual teacher in the article, as this does not play that major of a part in what I am trying to do with the Interfaith Temple.
Any mention of it in the article is simply because I suppose the reporter was interested in what I had to say about my own spirituality.
I studied mysticism, and spirituality quiet a few years before I met this spiritual teacher.
Interesting you comment on her. A recent attempted attack on her life was thwarted, but the assassination attempt on her life was major enough to be reported in Reuters and even picked up by CNN: http://premium.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapcf/08/22/crime.india.saint.reut/
As far as to the accuracy of the facts I stated:
A documentary on her by famous French director Jan Kounen (Darshan) was a feature film shown at the 2005 International Cannes Film Festival. (The Info on which is here: http://www.festival-cannes.fr/films/fiche_film.php?langue=6002&id_film=4284670)
Amma was, recorded on video and in records, an key speaker at the United Nations Millenium Peace Summit.
Amma was, recorded on video and in records, awarded the Gandhi-King Award for Non-Violence from the World Movement for Non-Violence which was presented to her at the UN Headquarters in Geneva by Dr. Jane Goodall, the former recipient.
Amma’s organization, the Mata Amritanandamayi Math (Organization) IS an NGO of the United Nations, among only 30 NGOs from India to receive Special UN Consultive Status.
Former Senator Larry Pressler and Yolanda King went to Amma’s 50th Birthday celebrations in Cochin India, and also have made other appearances. There is an entire DVD that shows Yolanda King praising Amma.
She was one of three representatives of Hinduism at the Parliament of World Religions in Chicago in 1993 and at the Parliament of World Religions in Barcelona in 2004.
When I was in Michigan for the public program and retreat, former Senator Larry Pressler came on stage and got a hug from her.
Everywhere Amma goes she is rather welcome. I went to her rather public program just last month in Albuquerque, New Mexico at the Hyatt Regency. A representative of the Mayor came to welcome her to the city and asked her to pray on behalf of the city, and the local state Senator for the Albuquerque area came on stage and received a hug from her. He was in tears crying afterwards.
Here are various news articles about her:
BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3143414.stm
Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071402213.html?nav=rss_metro
Athel Richelieu
Aug 25th, 2005
I just posted all that to inform, and also to correct the statement that these were false credentials, such as her speaking at the UN (When her own organization is one out of only 30 Indian NGOs to have UN Special Consultive Status) and that a documentary on her was a Feature Film at the Cannes Film Festival this year.
You may still call it a cult if you wish, that does not bother me, it is your perception.
However, she definitely has credentials and has a rather well known reputation. I would say “world-wide”.
I have met her personally, received her darshan (blessed hug), and it changed my life even though spirituality was a major part of my life before.
Though as far as who she is as a person, she never calls herself a saint, and works tirelessely for all. Her charity has been said to be one of the only charities in India where the majority of the money truly goes to the poor, her personal character and reputation are almost beyond tarnish, and she truly practices what she preaches. Even as just a person, she is a great humanitarian, and has received recognition as such.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 25th, 2005
Like I said, the World Movement for Non-Violence is just one of those old NGOs at the UN, nothing special, there is no endorsement by any government, world or no, in that event, it’s one of millions that merely use the UN to try to give themselves luster. There are more than 30 NGOs with consultative status, and it’s nothing special. It’s not that hard to get. All of these “credentials” you cite are the standard means by which cult leaders try to impress people internationally. My, you really are hooked on this Athel. It’s a cult, dude. I imagine one of the reasons Larry Pressler is a “former” senator is that he was wasting the tax-payers’ money visiting cult leaders in India LOL. One of the ways that cult leaders can particularly play on the heartstrings is to be seen working “for the poor” or “the children”. It’s an old story. As you grow up, you’ll figure it out. Let’s hope you don’t waste too many of your precious youthful years on this crap.
News articles? Well google further.
http://www.rickross.com/reference/amma/amma4.html
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Pantheon/4789/Articles/Cults/Kalki.html “Fraud of the Century”
I think it’s funny that at the spiritual smorgasbord which is the Internet, young people throw off traditional major religions claiming they are oppressive and often adopt cults that are even more oppressive. Human nature, I guess.
Do me a favour, and stop trying to convert me on this one. I’m glad that Walker had the journalistic savvy to ask you about your own religion. That way people coming to what they think is an open-ended kind of free worship arena with supposedly tolerance for all, etc. will at least be armed with information that you yourself have your own belief system and agenda, and may be using the seeming open-ended thing to encourage a way station on the route to drawing more converts to your own cult of choice. It’s often a demand of cults that you convert others, by any means possible.
Urizenus
Aug 25th, 2005
The story wasn’t by Walker but by yet another Herald Rising Star Cub Reporter (TM), Buttery Shortbread.
Athel Richelieu
Aug 25th, 2005
I am rather offended that you would say that I am trying to draw any one to anything. And your constant use of the word cult, which you probably intentionally use as to be inflammatory. And also that you keep saying the Internet, I did not even find my personal spirituality on the Internet or my personal spiritual teacher. My personal spirituality is my personal spirituality, even before, even after I follow this spiritual teacher if I cease to follow her I will still have an open and embracing view of spirituality.
I am promoting, not my own spirituality, but Interfaith with the Interfaith Temple. The Interfaith Temple is for all those to worship the Divine in their own way.
Now if you want to say what personal view I am bringing to the Interfaith Temple, it is that the Divine is open to all peoples and religions, and people may reach the Divine through their own personal path. Though this is not the view of some people, and some feel their path is elite to others. I do not feel my path is elite to others.
The Interfaith Temple is open to all who have some personal faith. Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Wiccan, etc. etc.
There is no mention anywhere, and in anything or in any of the events that will be held about my personal spiritual teacher. There is no connection between what I envisioned for the Interfaith Temple and my personal spiritual teacher.
I do not understand why you have to be intentionally inflammatory, Prokofy Neva, but as that is your reputation I suppose with this I will have to adopt that as my personal belief as well.
RB
Aug 25th, 2005
I think it’s already proven that all the religions in the world can’t exist peacefully together.
So how can it be done in one place in a virtual world like SL?
- RB.
juro kothari
Aug 25th, 2005
Every religion on the face of the planet is a cult, by definition. Some are more freaky and dangerous than others. I’ve long had love/hate opinions on religion, in general. On one hand, religion provides warm fuzzies and a sense of community. On the other, they are destructive as witnessed by dozens of wars and millions killed in the name of and for ‘religion’.
But let’s remember: they are all cults.
Joe Public
Aug 25th, 2005
>>Do me a favour, and stop trying to convert me on this one.
prok…you are such an asshat.
or is because…PROK IS GOD!!!!
Prokofy Neva
Aug 25th, 2005
Here’s what one former cult member writes: “Their motto seems to be ‘spirituality is big business’. The organization is run with the idea of making money and towards this end individuals don’t matter. As I look back, the free programs seem to be a way of getting people hooked emotionally so they will buy items from the bookstore, sign up for retreats and make donations. All of which is a prime source of income for Amma….Many mainstream churches run bookstores and have fundraising dinners. It was only after I became aware of the organization’s excessive fundraising focus that these thing began to bother me”
http://www.singingmountain.org/y2005mar12.html
It’s absolutely fascinating to me to see what wikipedia.org has done with this figure and the debates it has spawned:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mata_Amritanandamayi
It costs a mandatory $150 to attend these spiritual sessions and get a hug from the saint lol. Please. Athel, spare me the lectures and the drama. It’s a cult. And I don’t like it when people spread cults and try to whitewash them. I’m glad you’ve made a statement that your institution and events are open to all and aren’t a doorway to a cult. People need to know that. I personally am glad to have gotten this information sooner rather than later so I can avoid the whole cult thing.
Athel Richelieu
Aug 26th, 2005
Thank you for clarifying that the Interfaith Temple is not related at all to this, and that it is open to ALL. I am honestly not trying to endorse my own personal spirituality, the Interfaith Temple is an open spiritual forum for those of all faiths. I plan to have Wiccan religious events, Christian religious events, etc. etc. Or hope to have. All religions and faiths are welcome.
On the Amma debate.
You can feel it is a cult if you want, but…
“It costs a mandatory $150 to attend these spiritual sessions and get a hug from the saint”
Please. Prokofy, study before you actually make such statements.
I have been to two programs and retreats.
There are three free public programs where any one may come, off the street (and some did) to receive Amma’s hug. Three totally free public programs. I saw it myself, with my own eyes, it did not cost.
To attend the 3 day retreat is $150, which to me is VERY reasonable. This includes food, etc. You should look at what most “self-help authors”, and many many others are charging. In India, Amma gives totally free hugs to thousands upon thousands of people. Her charity actually does good work. I have seen and heard personally how Amma lives her life, and she is a total and devoted humanitarian.
Before you judge something, such as the very false statement made above, please research it first.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 26th, 2005
The zeal with which you defend this cult helps me know it’s a cult, Athel. And I haven’t at all given some “clearance” in “recognizing” that your temple is “truly interfaith” because you do indeed have an agenda, and I can’t know that it isn’t in fact to recruit people given your adherence to a cult.
IN this country, we have freedom of religious belief — or non belief — so you can do what you want. So can I.
You can do whatever you goddman want on your land, too. I’d just be personally reluctant to attend any services or events there knowing that the person running it is a cult adherent, and that often means a recruitment agenda. I’m glad others are on notice too. But you can ignor me and do what the hell you want. Spiritual explorations are important, and I wish you well. If you aren’t recruiting, thank God!
As for the $150 seminar, I took this out of the news accounts of several reputable mainstream newspapers. To advance in this religion, you need to go to the seminars that cost money. They do indeed cost money and they do indeed have hugs. That’s how they all work, Athel! This is a very old story. Of course they have free introductory activities too. I didn’t say they didn’t. I just pointed out that it costs $150 to go to the three-day seminar. Hey, it costs $95 to go to the FIC’s conference this fall, and that’s a cult, too lol.
One of the classic, classic features of a cult is that they are constantly putting you in the wrong. You can never learn enough about their arcane rituals. You are always “uninformed”. You are always told to “study more”. You are always told you don’t know enough, are “prejudiced” or “aren’t open minded.” You are always asked to defy your senses and common sense and realize “you haven’t gotten it.”
That’s because what most cults do is try to get power over people, and the way they do that is to challenge their sense of reality, constantly keeping them off balance.
Athel, I’m just not stupid enough to believe that some strange lady hugging me is going to open up my path to spiritual enlightenment, or is even going to feel very good. After all, you have to share her with millions of others.
me
Aug 26th, 2005
“One of the classic, classic features of a cult is that they are constantly putting you in the wrong. You can never learn enough about their arcane rituals. You are always uninformed. You are always told to study more. You are always told you don’t know enough, are prejudiced or aren’t open minded. You are always asked to defy your senses and common sense and realize you haven’t gotten it.”
Prokofy is a cult!
Prokofy Neva
Aug 26th, 2005
Hi, me, I love secret identity posting, don’t you? So cult-like! Well, if you can find my secret temple of the Cult of the True Linden, join me in worshiping Jack’s bear. Hey, if you’re early pay me $150 LL for a hug. Oh, but bring your own hug animation,.
Urizenus
Aug 26th, 2005
I think we can break down the cult/religion distinction in the following way.
hugging a woman or a tree = Cult!
kissing a cross or a ring on the hand of an old man = Religion!
me
Aug 26th, 2005
You mean posting under an alt is cult-like?
Prokofy is INDEED a cult!
Miraren Firefly
Aug 26th, 2005
Do excuse me, Prokofy, but I would like to point several things out:
-You started calling Amma a cult leader before you had come up with any evidence, thereby skewing your views
-Amma can hardly be called a cult leader. Let’s pull up the best-known of tools in this area, P.E.I Bonewitz’s Cult Evaluation Frame.
Cult Danger Evaluation Frame
~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
(with apologies to P.E.I. Bonewitz)
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
low middle high
Rate these 15 criteria according to the amount of it you perceive in a given group/religious organization. Higher scores usually mean a higher danger of mind control or brainwashing. Maximum score is 150.
1) How much control do the leader(s) of the organization have over its membership?
How much political power exists within the organization or is desired by the organization?
2) How much wisdom and/or infallibility is claimed by the leader(s) of the organization?
3) How much wisdom and/or infallibility do the members of the organization credit to their leaders?
4) How inflexible is the organization on the interpretation of doctrine/reality concepts?
5) How important is recruiting/proselytizing to the organization?
6) How many front groups does the organization operate under?
7) How much emphasis does the group place on donations? How is money used within the organization? Are the leader(s) visibly wealthier than the rank-and-file membership of the organization?
9) Is there sexual manipulation being used in the group (harassment/leader(s) asking or getting sexual favors from the members)?
10) How much access to and tolerance of other ideas do the leader(s) accord members? How much do members know of outside opinions of the organization?
11) How intense are efforts directed at preventing or re-indoctrinating dropouts?
12) Does the organization endorse violence on behalf of it or its leaders?
13) How much paranoia does the organization exhibit towards the “outside world?”
14) How much disapproval does the organization have of jokes about it, its doctrines or its leaders?
15) How tight is discipline within the organization (for example, are those who believe with doctrinal points or leadership decisions ostracized or shunned)?
Questions number 9 and 12 are pretty much yes or no questions, so give a 1 if no, a 10 if yes. 7 is an iffy one, if it looks like the leader or leaders of the group are living a lot higher on the hog than their “flock”, or that the leader(s) skim liberally from the “collection box” and use that to live in luxury, then you should give the group an automatic 9 or 10 in that department. I hope this is of use to all in regards to figuring out whether or not a group is truly a “cult” or not. It’s YOUR mind…USE IT!!!!!!!
Ho-kay, now let’s analyze Amma:
1. I’ll give this a 3. Some ashrami are fairly controlling, but the far majority do not attend the ashram.
2. This is a 1. Amma does not claim any special wisdom whatsoever, however….
3. A definate 9. Amma’s followers claim all sorts of things about her, including that she is an avatar and a living saint. She does not support any such claims.
4. A 2. There is very little doctrine, except that spiritual enlightenment can be achieved through love (about which Amma is completely inflexible).
5. A 4. While members do seem enthusiastic about singing Amma’s praise, they don’t go street prostlytizing, door to door, or anything like that.
6. 1 – there are no front groups for the ashram.
7. Another 4 – while the leaders are visibly wealthier than the rank-and-file, they use this wealth primarily to fund ashram and tour activities.
8. A 5 – while Amma is very visible in the political arena, she does not perform any visibly manipulative activities , nor does she tend to endorse very specific actions (as opposed to, say, Sathya Sai Baba).
9. 1 – no such reports have even been made, let alone verified.
10. 3 – Most followers of Amma are practicioners of other religions. She is, however, strongly discouraging of religions viewed as hateful.
11. 1 – no such efforts are made.
12. 1 – They strongly discourage violence.
13. 1 – none.
14. 2 – As long as it’s not terribly insulting, they’re fine.
15. 3 – Within the Ashrami, a strict schedule is followed. There is, however, no shunning.
Now, let’s add that up: A stunning 41. On a scale of 150, that’s pretty damned good, better than a whole lot of religions. I can understand your skepticism, Prokofy, but in this case it’s unjustified. Unlike some other Hindu gurus (like Sathya Sai Baba), or large organizations like the Catholic Church, there are no sexual abuse reports, no fraud reports, nothing.
If you come up with any, I’d love to take a look at them!
Keep in mind that I’m not a follower of Amma, and I was suspicious myself at first. I did my research, however, and found nothing to complain about.
May you never thirst!
moi
Aug 26th, 2005
Holy crap! Prokofy scored a 134! While there is far too much confusion in the sexual area for a high score there, Prok racked up points for infallability of leadership, inflexibility of doctrine, desired political power, lack of tolerance for other ideas, and the big one… PARANOIA.
Can I join your cult, Prok? Or do I have to wait for you to recruit me in the welcome area?
Prokofy Neva
Aug 26th, 2005
Miraren, your zeal in defending this cult lets me know where it has affected you. I know Bonewitz’s chart, and I’ve even corresponded with him. He himself is pagan and wiccan and himself could be characterized as “into” a cult by some people’s definitions. It’s one of the fetishes of pagan and wiccan that they “aren’t cults” and you can go to many of the back pages of this very Herald to see my many long debates with them and the BDSM crowd on these issues.
The Catholic Church isn’t a cult, it’s a mainstream religion, and whether it has sexual abuse cases or fraud, that doesn’t have anything to do with whether Amma, a single human being without any institution, gets to play saint or not. One has nothing to do with the others. If Amma has no sexual abuse case against her, and the Catholic Church has many cases, it doesn’t mean she’s not a cult, and that she is good and they are bad. That’s just specious and faulty reasoning decided to uphold your own notion of a leader that you want to be free of the cult label for whatever reason.
I could go down that exact same scale and get a completely different set of numbers. In fact there are fronts, and in fact there is political manipulation and efforts to silence journalits and this is written about in the India media. Just google a little more thoroughly than you’ve been doing.
How much tolerance of disapproval seems to be one of Bonewitz’s features that you are unaware of — your own tolerance seems low.
She doesn’t seem to be the worst kind of cult leader, and could be harmless, but I resent people trying to whitewash her as a humanitarian when she’s clearly a cult leader trying to use icons of American culture and international prestige to add luster to herself — it’s a vast ego trip, with money involved too. The stories of former followers read like stories the world over of cults. Making people get up at 5 in the morning and sensory deprivation and all the rest. What my main concern in all this was that something put out as an “interfaith temple” wouldn’t be just a gateway to suck people into a cult. Athel’s assuring us that’s not the case. Now the readers and the visitors can judge for themselves because they have enough information to go on.
juro kothari
Aug 26th, 2005
The Catholic church is indeed a cult, just as much as any other. A quick glance at any dictionary will make that abundantly clear.
As for whether Amma is or is not a ‘cult’ – by definition, yes. If it is to paint Amma as a nut-job religious leader, I cannot speak to that as I don’t know enough about her.
I doubt that she has the stained and abusive history that the Catholic church does, however.
Miraren Firefly
Aug 26th, 2005
“Miraren, your zeal in defending this cult lets me know where it has affected you. I know Bonewitz’s chart, and I’ve even corresponded with him. He himself is pagan and wiccan and himself could be characterized as “into” a cult by some people’s definitions. It’s one of the fetishes of pagan and wiccan that they “aren’t cults” and you can go to many of the back pages of this very Herald to see my many long debates with them and the BDSM crowd on these issues.”
So, Prok – if Wicca, a religion where every adherent is free to modify the practice as they see fit, a religion with no powerful central leaders and no overarching organization, a religion that is anti-authoritarian and cynical enough to qualify as libertarian – if Wicca is a cult, am I to assume that every religion below a certain size is, in your mind, a cult?
As for the Catholic Church, which you so valiantly proclaim to be a mainstream religion – how’s about we rate it on Bonewits’ scale.
1. A 7 – though the leaders do not have terribly much control over their less religious members, the more pious Catholics live in constant fear of the rules and dictums laid out by the Church.
2. 10 – The Pope and his Cardinals claim to be infallible and omniscient by dint of being in direct contact with God.
3. A 7 – Although the power of the Pope has fallen in recent years, many members of the Church still attempt to live by his word.
4. 10 – Church doctrine is infallible and absolute.
5. 6 – While it is considered that those of other religions will go to Hell, Catholics do not, as a whole, do any street-prostletyzing activities like, say, Jehovah’s Witnesses do.
6. 10 – Literally hundreds of front groups can be traced back to the Catholic Church. Whle many, such as the Church’s universities and hospitals, are publicly attributed to the Church, others are not.
7. 10 – While the top officials of the Church pray in basilicas of gold, gems and marble, heavy emphasis is placed on donations, and the majority of Catholics remain poor.
8. 10 – The Catholic Church, even in its current state of diminished power, wields considerable political influence, and is constantly scrabbling for more.
9. 10 – I need not go into detail about the years of sexual misconduct that have been recently revealed to have taken place within the Church.
10. 9 – Although the Church has recently made efforts to reach out to other religions, they afford their members not an inch of flexibility on personal belief or doctrine.
11. 7 – Efforts are not frantic, but they’re certainly concentrated. Adherents believe that dropouts from the religion will go to Hell.
12. 5 – They have historically done so on a frequent basis, but they do not do so currently.
13. 7 – It’s more a matter of pity than paranoia. Non-Catholics will, after all, go to Hell!
14. 10 – Try to kid to a Catholic and they’ll pray for your soul, give you a solid spanking and lecture to your face!
15. 10 – There are many famous and recent cases of well-known theologians being excommunicated for mild differences in teaching and doctrine.
Oooh, boy! Let’s count this baby up! That’s a good 128. Scientology could hardly do any better! Or worse, as the case may be.
Look, Prokofy, my point is that the Catholic Church qualifies, by Bonewits’ standards, as a definite cult. Notice that there is no provision made in the Cult Danger Evaluation Frame for size; the frighteningly cultic Sathya Sai Baba’s ashram has, according to many sources, a membership larger than the Seventh Day Adventist movement!
Miraren Firefly
Aug 26th, 2005
“How much tolerance of disapproval seems to be one of Bonewitz’s features that you are unaware of – your own tolerance seems low.”
I’m perfectly tolerant of lively debate, Prokofy – it’s your cutting weewhackerisms that you pass off for argument that I despise. As for my “intolerance,” I’m a pantheistic magick-user; I was raised Jewish, and study Wicca, Buddhism, Hinduism, Druidry, Hermetic magick, Kabbalah, Egyptian religion and many other faiths. If that’s not tolerance, I don’t know quite WHAT is.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 26th, 2005
moi, if you need a home, you may like to join my group Ravenglass Rentals. Right-click on my rental box and pay a low, low rent and get all kinds of benefits like group dwell, free vending and events space and customized service. I’m not infallible, but I do try to deed videos within 24 hours, heck, I usually get to them within the hour. At any time you may try to flip “officer recall” on me but I’ve taken a lot of meaures to protect myself against this pernicious and idiot feature of the hippie-dope-smoking devs who made the game tools. Actually, I have a fair number of tenants who are way more visibly wealthier than me, just look at their dwell and leader lists and stuff. You know, I avoid spamming the group with ads but now and then I do offer a $50/50 prim stall. Well, I guess that’s it for my cult, now, like I said, if you need a great property with grand views and extra prims for only $75/100 please join. Oh, you can leave any time, just click on the box and for a low-low refund fee you’re on your way : )
Joe Public
Aug 26th, 2005
Prok is leader of the cult of windbags…
Antje
Aug 27th, 2005
Prokofy,
COULD IT BE TRUE? The anti-tekkie-wiki self appointed Christ figure giving us a link to THE WIKI? HAHAHAHAHAHA! That’s classic.
How can sit there and call this organisation a cult, and then call Catholicism “a mainstream religion”? Sure, it’s got a whole hell of a lot of sheep, and that’s why it’s just one big cult. A sick, twisted, perverse, power mongering one at that. You wanna talk about secret crap going on, you need look no further than that twisted cult. Payoffs to government officials all over the globe to begin with.
As far as the 150$ goes.. bah, how much are people expected to give to the Catholic church? One hell of a lot more than that. Last time I checked, it’s 10% of your yearly income, so that they can build more useless monuments to God, and keep that old man in the Vatican from croaking. I know people that give in excess of 10,000 USD per year to Christian churches, so who is the cult again? By your silly definition the Catholic church is one.
Should we talk about the Nazi connection in WWII?
Skeletons of fetuses found under cathedrals?
The Inquistion?
Decades of sexual abuse of CHILDREN, and the ensuing cover ups and sickening scandals?
The murders of tens of thousands of pre-Christian Europeans? Muslims?
All the above, from people who are supposed to follow the teachings of Christ? If there is a hell, they will be the first to find out. I am sure Christ wouldn’t like his teachings twisted in such a hypocritical manner for 20 centuries now would he?
With the exception of mosquito borne illness, your precious “mainstream religions” have been responsible for more human deaths than any other cause in the history of mankind.
Spare us your own cultish, indoctrinated defense.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 27th, 2005
Um, what a load of crock Antje. Mainstream religions aren’t the main cause for human deaths in history, communism is. There are millions and millions of deaths booked to communism’s ledger in the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, Cuba and many other places.
Like most half-baked leftist debaters on the Internet you are astoundingly morally blind to these millions massacred under communism or in the name of socialism.
This kind of debate is pretty hopeless to have, because on the one hand you have hedonistic hectorers who just want to do their own thing, have power over other people, and knock anything that is higher than themselves by assembling the usual list of lame-ass examples (fetuses under Cathedrals? geez). And on the other hand you have people who aren’t going to deny anything that is flawed or severely damaged about their mainstream religion but know the difference of different levels of institutions of different quality.
Whatever the evils of the Catholic Church, like other major religions, it has proved generally an inspiration for civilization and simply done more good than harm, that’s easily demonstrated to anyone with common sense.
Indeed, it’s the results of Judeo-Christian Western civilization that even makes it possible for there to be a bulletin board here on the Internet in which various points of views compete in a search for the truth. Try looking for that under communism, or cults, or even some of the very mainstream religions that place a premium on orthodoxy and fanatacism — which you’re eager to defend just to be contrarian.
So whatever your ridiculing of old men having their rings kissed, the Catholic Church and other such mainstream religion institutions simply have a lot more to show for themselves in terms of building civilization than some swami in India who is forgotten even within their lifetime.
I think you need to take a little trip back through history — even of the last twenty years — and see the millions of people — Muslims and non-Muslims — that a tyrannical government ostensibly based on Islam, like the Sudanese government, has committed in our time. And I mean millions. I’m always amazed that leftist hectorers can overlook these kinds of millions massacred even within reach of our modern-day communications system, and still yammer on about “tens of thousands of pre-Christians and Muslims” that are supposedly massacred by Christians.
As for “10 percent” or “tithing” you’ve got the concept of the Baptist and other Protestant churches mixed up with the Catholics. Tithing is more of a fundamentalist practice — there is no insistence whatsoever in the Catholic Church to give ten percent of one’s income.
Let me say that your willingness to posit a Christ who was good and whose teachings you find valid such as to be upset at their “twisting” and imagine that He would be upset is precisely a good example of why mainstream religion is a success — and cults are just cults that come and go.
Joe Public
Aug 27th, 2005
>>Mainstream religions aren’t the main cause for human deaths in history, communism is.
My god, prokofy (or should that be “My Prokofy”?) what sort of drugs ARE you on???
Moi
Aug 27th, 2005
Regarding post 25. Thank you for trying to recruit me.
It’s also cool to know that the comments section of the SL Herald are an acceptable place to post advertisements for products and services! Does anybody else have some great deals they would like to share with us?
Antje
Aug 27th, 2005
Catholicism is based upon the belief that their God is “a god of love”. A shame that this “god of love” apparently does not love everyone.
Exclusionary. You must follow this belief or you are doomed. This is why tens of thousands of my ancestors were slaughtered by Catholics. You cannot “sweep it under the rug”. You know, the usual Catholic MO, for centuries now.
I’ll take Wicca, Hinduism or Buddhism over that type of self-righteous religious/political jingoism any day, thank you very much!
I am a confirmed Catholic by the way, not that it means ANYTHING to me. I have long since learned to think for myself. The reason I state this is to pre-empt any claims by you that I have no idea what I am talking about with respect to Catholicism. Indeed the very reason I reject Catholicism is because of my personal experiences with it.
Catholic, as with most Christian belief has been used to enact exclusion, oppression and murder.
Even today, the new Pope (who has his own WWII skeletons) is making it clear in statements like the following:
Footloose anyone? talk about trying to control people! LOL!
On Communism: It is generally a 20th century phenomenon. Sure, it has it’s roots earlier than that to be sure, but the largest and most successful application thereof was in the 20th century.
I am sorry, while the 20th century certainly has more than it’s share of the total deaths in human history, let’s remember that people have been practicing the “big three” and killing each other over them for a LOT longer than that. I still stand by my statement. Judeo-Christian and Islamic beliefs have been the catalyst for more human death and suffering than any other non-natural phenomenon. You can dispute it, and throw out diversions like Communism, but the fact remains.
On the topic of communism: One could liken Sovietism, especially the Stalinist period to a “cult” itself. Nikita Khrushchev denounced Stalin’s mass repressions and cultlike construct, and initiated “de-Stalinization”. Khrushchev used the word “cult” specifically! We all know that Stalin’s name wasn’t even Stalin! It was part of his scheme to set himself up as some sort of God-like savior of “the people”. He even replaced imagery of Christ with portraits of himself!
How dare you try to define my political viewpoint. I am not a leftist. You have no idea. None. And your stating such just indicates further what an ignoramus and assumptive idiot you are. My father was murdered by leftists, his broken body left wrapped around a tree to rot in the summer heat. I have seen and felt the effects firsthand. So don’t you dare lecture me in that manner.
On tithing:
Most Catholic churches suggest that parishioners contribute 10% of their income to charity, with 5% going to the local church and 5% going to the parishioner’s charity of choice. Just as Protestant churches exhort (not require) that you should tithe 10%. Gee, I wonder were that idea came from? Could it be from Catholicism? And in turn, where did the Catholics get the idea? Could it be from the Jews, the wellspring of Christianity, who REQUIRE that 10 to 20% be tithed? Muslims are REQUIRED to pay zakat, one of the five pillars of Islam. There IS NO official Hindu tithe, but Hindus do pay for pujas and often donate to their temples. Mormons are REQUIRED to tithe 10% of their income to the church. Normally Muslims pay at least 2.5% in zakat.
Now don’t get me wrong, I am not against tithing in principle. What I am against is smug statements about a 150$ fee making a religion a “cult”, when the church you are defending solicits moneys too. Generally far more than what is expected by Hindu or Buddhist establishments, and then Wicca, which requires precisely NONE. So we have here mainly Christian, Jewish and Muslim faiths either strongly suggesting or requiring tithing. And who is more like a cult again? (If we’re using solicitations of funds as a metric)
On fetuses:
In Canada: Secret cemeteries containing the aborted fetuses and small babies who were the progeny of priests & staff at the schools, according to eye witnesses. Ethel Wilson of Bella Bella, says she saw “rows and rows of tiny skeletons” within foundations the school of St Michael’s in Albert Bay, BC, when a replacement school was constructed in the 60s.
“There were several rows of them, all lined up neatly like it was a big cemetery. The skeletons had been found within one of the old walls of St Mike’s school. None of them could have been very old, from their size. Now why would so many kids have been buried like that inside a wall, unless someone was trying to hide something?”
Arnold Sylvester, who attended Kuper Island school corroborates this. “The priests dug up the secret gravesite in a real hurry (wikki wikki? LMAO!) around 1972 when the school closed. No one was allowed to watch them dig up those remains. I think it’s because that was a specially secret graveyard where the bodies of the pregnant girls were buried. Some of the girls who got pregnant from the priests were actually killed because they threatened to talk. They were sometimes shipped out and sometimes just disappeared. We weren’t allowed to talk about this.”
There are other such accounts, most notably one in New York I remember hearing about on the news back in the 1980′s. These were mostly aborted fetuses or new borns which were discovered buried beneath a Catholic Church – the illegitimate offspring of clergy members. Can’t have those messy illegitimate kids running around now can we? Nor can we go get an abortion, we’ll just have to do it ourselves, we wouldn’t want to be exposed as hypocrites since we teach that abortion is murder! Nor would we want people to know that preists were raping Native American girls and nuns!
It’s ok Prokofy, just close your eyes. Carry on the grand tradition of Christianity! Why stop now, it’s been going on for centuries!
What about the Wiki Prokofy? How is it that on your blog, and formerly on the SL forums, you get to denounce it as a horrific construct, then reference it in your post above? Hmmmm. Quite telling you simply ignored my earlier point about that, along with several others…
Now, tell us again how you so cleverly coined the phrase! Define “Wikiup” again! Cuz we r all 2 stoopid to posiblee no that alreddy!
It’s not like it’s taught in many high schools and colleges or anything! Only the ever so pious Prokofy Neva would know such a thing!
By the way, it’s not Hawaiian at all. It’s from Native American Meskwaki-Sauk language “wiikiyaapi” or wigwam (trust me on this, etymology is my forte), and certainly has nothing to do with the European imported concept of “barn-raising”. Barns are generally permanent structures. Barn raisings were necessary because people could not afford to pay a construction outfit to do it for them, not some because of some shadowy socialist undercurrent – LMAO! Wikiups were simply a necessary part of the nomadic lifestyle that the Meskwaki-Sauk lead in earlier centuries. When you aren’t raising your own food, you have to go where the food is. It has zero to do with your false claim that it’s neighbors promoting each other, not that there’s anything inherently wrong with that, unless one is given to fits of paranoia. Whatever it takes to further foster intolerance I guess. (Though you would never admit, nor probably realize this, because you are too blinded by you own self-adulation and your indoctrinated Christian belief set)
The only debate that is “pretty hopeless” to have is one with folks like you who are so blinded by self righteousness and a false sense of morality that you just ooze hypocritical excretions.
Someday dear Prokofy, Karma is going to bite you on the ass so hard you won’t know what hit you.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 27th, 2005
Go to hell, Antje. I don’t care how your father died, you’re still full of shit up to your eyeballs. You want to trade family horror stories, we can do that, but I don’t play that game on the Internet with idiots who may be making up the entire story anyway, and who can’t have a rational argument, but have to play Internet histrionics to make a point. Often people who have a beef with leftists merely have a beef with some other leftist sect different than their own, and have imbibed all those leftist methods into their right-wing ways. You look like a stellar case of that with your rant and citing of specious, fake “factoids”.
That Internet hoax about the fetuses really completely undermines any shred of credibility you have. Just because a lot of babies are buried doesn’t mean they are the illegitimate children or priests or aborted fetuses, they could just be miscarriages, the hell you know.
I’ve gone to Mass for years in all kinds of churches and I’ve never, ever been told to pay 10 percent or even 5 percent of my income or any kind of fee. This is an entire load of crap easily disproven. And what if there is some religion that does ask for tithes? Good for them, if they feed the poor and pay their electricity bills with that money. That’s better than paying $150 for a hug from some swami, geez.
Nobody said “wickiup” was Hawaian, dumbass. I’ve just cited the Internet etymology that claims “wiki” is from a Hawaian phrase of “wiki wiki” meaning hurry up or some damn thing, and I myself on my blog and on the forums have long since ALREADY made the point that the word might come from “wickiup” which is Native American. Or who the hell knows. But you’ll go to any lengths to resist what anybody knows with common sense: that hugs don’t bring spirituality, and they don’t need to cost $150.
I’m not any “indoctrinated Christian” as I’ve studied all kinds of religions for years. And one handy fact I know is that your silly notion that Catholics say anyone who doesn’t believe is “doomed” is outright bullshit. There’s no such thing, and you haven’t read St. Thomas Aquinas, I guess.
It’s a good thing that the Creator of the Universe is a being higher than your notion of Him or we’d all be doomed.
I’d suggest you do less Internet googling and cutting and pasting and reading of hoaxes and just go get some real books out of the library and spend some time reading them. Your lack of education shows.
Joe Public
Aug 27th, 2005
>>Mainstream religions aren’t the main cause for human deaths in history, communism is.
I guess the bubonic plague epidemics in the 6th, 14th, and 17th centuries ( ~147 million souls scored ) and the 1918 influenza pandemic that topped out at around 40 million were just Gods way (which god? that kindly old white man god with the flowing beard and wing-ed angel “attendants” god) of thinning out the filthy heathens and cultists. Gotta test tha faith of tha true believers!
Mainstream religion is an extension of economics by other means. Common sense will tell you that…
Antje
Aug 27th, 2005
Yeah, when you are caught with your pants down, claim it’s a “internet hoax”! Even though you yourself have created countless “internet hoaxes” yourself. Listen sweetheart, I am probably old enough to be your mother, and I have been studying things like these since the 60s. LONG before your precious bogeyman the “leftist controlled intarweb” existed. So take your hectoring, know-it-all bullshit, and shove it in your ear.
Even if those babies were miscarriages (yeah right, dozens of them, HIDDEN IN WALLS AND FOUNDATIONS) what were they doing having sex in the first place? Isn’t that a sin? Why hide them? Why not give them a proper Christian burial? I think you know why, and it’s precisely why you are now so enraged that you are spitting on my father’s memory.
On my education. I am educated. I read books. Hundreds of them. What do you do? Spend your days inventing conspiracy theories on the internet.
Your ad-hominems and straw men are obvious and worthless diversionary tactics.
“Go to hell, Antje. I don’t care how your father died, you’re still full of shit up to your eyeballs.”
Ah, such a nice Christian thing to say. And quite typical. “Go to hell”? Classic holier than though Christian rhetoric.
Guess what, I don’t believe in hell. So I am not worried. Your religion invented it to scare people into doing their bidding. Control tactics = cult.
“Here come de judge, here come de judge” (My thanks to Filp Wilson)
My father was indeed killed by leftists you piece of trash. Your saying you don’t care how he died just shows that continuing a weak-ass, transparent line of hectoring bullshit is more important to you than compassion.
I do care that your family may have been treated in a similar fashion, regardless of how hateful you are, because I realize it’s not their fault that their offspring turned out to be such a troll.
Now, after having a conversation in world with others about this, I have realized that this whole charade you are perpetrating here is simply an attempt to discredit that (Athel’s Interfaith temple) which you view as competition (being that you have your own religious “sanctuaries” in SL.)
Just like when you popped a gasket over Cabinhead, and tried to disguise your issue with it by crying about the teleport home function. That was really only about your fear of losing some newbies to indoctrinate into your cult.
Being that it’s been established that your malevolent comments here are really just a disguise for a campaign against competetition, I will leave you to be eaten alive by the other folks here you realize what an impotent fool you are.
Ciao baby!
Antje
Aug 27th, 2005
By the way, I NEVER said tithing was REQUIRED you “dumbass”.
I said “expected”, and you are.
The pathetic Church I attended even strongly suggested that I, as a minor, after I was confirmed, tithe! They gave me a freaking box of tithing envelopes! Enough to last me 3 years! Asking for kids to shell out 10% of their meager allowance, if they even got one! All this because in the eyes of the Church, I was considered an adult after being confirmed. Nice, solicting money from children. I think back then I got a whole 50 cents a week, and they would ask for part of it!
Prokofy Neva
Aug 27th, 2005
No, I’m afraid you’re not old enough to be my mother, dumbass.
And I have no way of knowing whether you are making up the story of your father, and if it is true, you sound very, very confused. He was killed by leftists, but you have no critique of the left? Nothing to say about it? Accusing me of making straw man of communists? And your confusion about religion then is supposed to spread to everyone else so one moment we’re supposed to hate some leftists who killed your father, but celebrate other leftists who debunk and discredit religion? Which is it?
I think it’s completely low to bring up RL information and RL sagas and tragedies as currency in a debate about SL. I find it reprehensible. It’s designed to play to the lowest common denominator of emotion in the audience and that’s why I slam back at it really hard in as shocking a way possible to make the point. You don’t get to pull that crap on me. It’s not that I don’t care that someone’s father died — my father’s dead, too. I can brandish all kind of family tragedies at you, too, hon. It’s that I completely reject using some personal or family tragedy in an argument among strangers when no one has any way of gaging its reliablity as a fact — and it’s really from another realm anyway and has no bearing on the generic topics we’re discussing. It’s just a low, rhetorical gimmick. I completely denounce it.
I don’t have anything to compete with Athel. He holds regular events in his temple. I rarely have time for my church and temple events. I occasionally have events or let tenants have them and have no desire to “compete” with anybody which is silly. It’s only because you live in that hothouse realm of little weeny fanboyz competing with each other to get attention in SL that you could attribute that kind of crap to me.
As for Cabinhead, I resolutely stand by my critique. It was absolutely on the money. The Lindens went ahead and did *exactly* what I said they’d do back then, and everybody claimed they wouldn’t and slammed me for. They are now streaming newbies to Cubey’s Aerodrome. Had Schwanson not pulled a hissy fit, he’s have newbies too.
I don’t want a stream of newbies. I don’t need them. I don’t need the Lindens to hold my hand. I’m happy to appeal to newbies with my rentals in the free market like everybody else. I get plenty of newbie customers whom I help and neither I nor they complain or ask for Linden or oldbie or FIC help. Sheesh.
Everything you say gives me a a window into the dark and jealous mind and soul that you and so many others in your little clique and your little world inhabit. Get over yourself.
No, you’re not “expected” to tithe either, dumbass. What country were you in? Why extrapolate from church in one place? I’ve been in a million Catholic Churches all over the world and never once heard this. It’s insane, what you’re saying, and not doctrine. Everyone gets collection envelopes, but you aren’t expected to put one tenth of your earnings, even a kid’s allowance in the envelop — haven’t you heard of the Widow’s Mite?
Someone like you who has a few negative experiences with religion merely lets their mind slam like a trap door in the other direction. It’s not really worth debating you because your mind is closed.
Antje
Aug 27th, 2005
My mind is closed? Listen to yourself, you pompous windbag.
You the most closed-minded person I have seen to date on the net.
How would you know if I am old enough to be your mother?
In a thread I read this morning, right here on this blog, you claim that a 47 year old person who is quoted in the Boston Globe is your “mother”. That is what I based that statement on. If that is the case, then I am old enough to be your mother. Which is highly confusing, because you’re always harping about people in their 20′s and 30′s. *boggle*
So, you either a liar, or a liar.
Given your history on the SL forums of constantly lying, I think it’s safe to say you’re a flat out, chronic prevaricator.
Due to the fact that you are unable to post on the SL forums because of your incessant lies and “persistant trolling”, your questioning my character is utterly ridiculous.
Given your supposed subscription to the teachings of Christ, your behavior is appalling, and I hope your family has lots of money and candles to get you from purgatory to heaven! LMAO!
I get to say what I want, you will never dicate to me what I will say, never. Understand? Good.
You brought up RL. You called me a leftist without knowing a god damned thing about me you moron.
I am a spiritual and religious person, I simply chose to leave the one I was born into because is is based upon a historical mountain of lies, extortion, fraud, rape, molestation, sodomy, genocide in the name of God and Christ, and presumptions of human beings being able to speak for “God”. When became old enough to educate myself, and, unlike you, started THINKING FOR MYSELF, I started to feel dirty for even being associated with such an organisation.
Because I think the Catholic church is an utter sham, it does not make me a leftist you imbecile.
Is that all you know how to do? Character assassinations based on idiotic assumptions?
I don’t get to mention my father, but you do? Hypocrite. You bring up that Soviet bullshit ALL the damned time, because it is from your RL history! Maybe I should start going off on half-baked theories about LL and SL’s denizens being socialists, subbotnik, KGB, BLAH FUCKING BLAH, based upon MY past eh? No thanks, I don’t need the attention because mommy pulled me away from the teats to early like you. I don’t need to drag my historical baggage into everything around me in life like you do.
Stick out your chest and “slam” back some more, tough guy, I am sure someone out there is impressed!
And then go to confession. You need it.
Now spew some more filth and lies. Attack some more 19 year olds, what a hard-ass you are! You’ll get no more of my time, now that I fully realize what a lying bastard you are.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 27th, 2005
Who cares whether you are old enough to be my mother, and how can you really be sure you are? It’s completely irrelevant to the topic. This isn’t a forum to bare all about your personal life, you know, it’s about Second Life. So get off your high horse about this, it’s irrelevant.
You’ve obviously wrapped your entire identity around this horrible tragedy with your father – but you’ve also dined out on it your whole life and probably this is the first time ever somebody’s called you on it. And I’m here to say that it just isn’t any good to wield highly emotional material like that in a debate on the Internet with strangers. No one can check, and no one can see the context, and it isn’t relevant anyway.
You’re coming on here with a typical, bigoted, misinformed, hysterical anti-Catholic tirade merely because I questioned a fairly unknown guru from India who is the latest in a string of gurus from that country with a not completely sterling reputation, whatever the fans say, because people just wonder about the techniques and the fake credentializing like invoking the UN. That’s all. Your baggage about the Catholic Church extending back to some limited experience you had about giving your allowance and some string of venomous hate-filled hysteria has been imposed as some kind of “argument” about whether $150 is a fair price for 3 days with a saint — these are the special seminars for extra enlightenment, we’re well aware that there are others that are free — whose main claim to fame is hugging people and hanging out with American icons to add luster to her reputation.
In this argument, you’ve wielded not only highly personal emotional baggage, but completely irrelevant materials about fetuses supposedly buried under Catholic Churches (could we get a RL news account cite on that please?)
I don’t lie, and I don’t troll. I make candid critiques. Hard to take, I know. But that’s all there is to it.
I didn’t bring my relatives in it — you did. So your slams in that regard just look silly. And everything you said seemed typical if not of the leftist view, the hobbled mind of the sectarian. The kind of spewing, venomous, hate-filled sentence filled with utter tripe that you can write about a world religion like Catholicism lets me know all I need to know about you and your agenda.
It’s quite indicative that you are unwilling to state what it is you DO believe in, but can only tell the rest of us that our beliefs are shit.
And nobody gets a pass just because they’re 19. Or 119. It’s just not relevant and can’t be checked anyway.
juro kothari
Aug 27th, 2005
Religion has been the force behind millions of deaths – remember the Incas? The Aztecs? The Mayans? Remember reducciones?
IMHO, it’s just as bad as Communism, etc. that Prokofy points out. It’s a cult, no matter how you slice it. It’s not to say it’s all bad, but one thing I’ve noticed (at least with my Catholic family/friends) is the willingness to ignore the ‘bad’. Those who do not recognize terrible actions of yesterday are more likely to repeat them tomorrow.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 27th, 2005
Communism has killed way more people than religion, Juro. Do your history reading and do your math. Just the Soviet Union alone has massacred something like 60 million just in its own territory during the time it was in power.
Nobody is “ignoring the bad” about Catholicism. But they aren’t going to accept fake stories about fetuses under the floorboards, either. There’s enormous amount of bigotry perpetrated against believers in the name of the fuck-you hedonistic cult. The main beef that anti-Catholic bashers come up with is a mistaken notion that the Catholic Church or the Pope wants to control their sex life. Of course, nobody better control their sex life, or else! But nobody holds a gun to your head to be a Catholic, you can join the church voluntarily or leave it, and many Catholics in it don’t follow the more restrictive notions like teachings against birth control or divorce anyway. It’s a lot more diverse and nuanced than outside hysterics think. And whatever it’s problems, the Catholic church has a record of service and humanitarianism that the Soviet Union sure doesn’t have, or some tinpot dictator or some nickle-and-dime guru.
I’m going to follow up with you inworld some time on this discussion because it’s just too wearisome to go into here when it’s not really on topic.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 27th, 2005
BTW, when the Spanish come and conquer the Incas, it’s about imperialist conquerors from a more developed society conquering an indigenous society, and to chalk these murders in these conquests as only “about religion” is to be superficial and skew historical facts.
Joe Public
Aug 28th, 2005
Pompous
Rank
Obstreperous
Know-it-all
Of
Fucking everything
You are most certainly!
Prokofy Neva
Aug 28th, 2005
Wow, Joe, thanks for reminding me of the word “obstreperous”. I’m going to start using it more often! It’s really a good description of you all : )
Miraren Firefly
Aug 28th, 2005
Okay, having been one of the people to incite this crazy flamefest, I would like to get one thing straight. While we can’t exactly get precise numbers on people killed by governments posing as “Communist” versus those killed by religion, it certainly is worth looking at the facts.
Fact 1: “Communist” (can’t you smell Karl Marx rolling in his grave?) governments have, indeed, killed billions of people. If you widen that definition to “socialist” governments, the number nearly doubles to include the German National Socialist Party – the Nazis. So yes, scores of billions have been killed by “communist” and “socialist” political machines.
Fact 2: While we can never be certain of the numbers, religiously-motivated genocides and mass murders have occurred throughout history, whereas Communism and Socialism are limited to the last ~150 years. We CAN be certain that the 16 medieval crusades (First-Ninth, People’s Crusade, German Crusade, Crusade of 1101, Abigensian, Children’s, Shepherds’, Northern Crusades) ALONE killed *at least* several billion people. If you then factor in modern-day African religous genocide, genocide on the part of historical Islamic empires, other religious genocides in medieval Europe, tribe-flattenings by the Inca, Maya and Aztec, subsequent flattening and forced conversion of the Aztec, Toltec and related peoples by the Conquistadores, extermination of the Native Americans under the “manifest destiny” argument, Church-ordered genocide of early medieval pagan “heretics,” the infamous Inquisition, witch-burnings…
It adds up.
Needless to say, it takes a real historian to actually properly analyze and decide whether Communism/Socialism or religion has killed more. One thing is for certain, however: they are both competitors for the title of “most murderous,” and neither is obviously dominant of the other.
:takes a bow:
Thank you, and good night.
May you never thirst.
-Miraren Firefly
Prokofy Neva
Aug 28th, 2005
Miraren, your silly notion that the crusades killed “billions” is hysterically laughable to anyone who has even the most cursory knowledge of history, becuase there weren’t that many people even on the planet. The planet only recently reached 6 billion people in our time. Even over centuries, there just weren’t that many to kill. The modern day machines of Nazism and Stalinism killed many more, through modern technology, than was possible to kill in the past.
The notion that “religions killed more people than any other entity such as a government” is one of those Internet-spread hoaxes, one of those urban myths, a mind meme to which your mind has fallen prey. Try to use some common sense and general reason to think about your wild claim for a minute.
See if you could possibly produce any historically sound references with mathematically sound processes to show even 30,000 or even 100,000 for the crusades. Here’s an answer — about how impossible it is to tell — by a recognized historian in the UK, just to cite one google find:
http://freespace.virgin.net/nigel.nicholson/SSCLE/Crusade%20Faqs/f-dead.html
This historian makes the same obvious point than anyone could make, that you wouldn’t have “billions” killed if in fact there were people left working the land, etc.
Or read this about the contradictory accounts of the taking of Jerusalem — and what preceded it!
http://freespace.virgin.net/nigel.nicholson/SSCLE/Crusade%20Faqs/f-killing.html
Sorry, but two can play at the google and Internet game. Please spare us. Try to explain what your real agenda is. You want some basis to celebrate either your own own leftist sectarian political views or you own atheistic views? Well then celebrate them on your own, come clean, and tell us what you believe in without having to speciously dump on other people’s beliefs.
The crusades had their evils, but let’s not forget the evils they were launched to fight: the evils of the non-Christian world that was even more bloody — as the historical accounts show. Why such moral blindness? Can you spell “Mongol Hordes”? Honestly, you have such a blinkered view of the world.
Religions product civilizations — civilizations produce stability, commerce, the arts. Communism and other utopians produce dysfunction, crime, even death.
You can’t suddenly start booking to “religious extremism” or “religious mass murder” things like the massacres of Native Americans. This was not done on religions grounds but on let’s say “imperialist” grounds. Religion was not the motivating factor.
But, if you want to change the discussion and try to see if you can book more mass murders to the West, to Judeo-Christian civilization, versus the East or the South, if your point is always to try to make America look bad, that won’t wash either (and of course, that’s your only sectarian agenda here).
Did you forget China? Russia? Long before they even had communism? Congo? It’s fashionable to bring up King Leopold and book his evils to the West’s docket, too. But take a gander around the Arab world, the African world, the rest of the non-Western and specifical non-American world over the centuries and there is NO QUESTION that there is less murder because there aren’t the murderous ideologies and societies that are as bloody. It’s just a fact.
There is nothing, nothing that compares to the mass murders of the non-West — and to non-US. Nothing. Nothing at all. Nothing. It’s very hard to take for some people. They can’t give credit where credit is due. But it’s merited.
Human history is a blood-soaked, animal history with lots of mass murder. Let’s look where it is less bloody, however. In the United States and the territories it controls — whatever its crimes and evils, there is simply less of this bloody-mindedness. Again, just look at Sudan in the last 20 years.
It’s one of the reasons while millions — billions over hundreds of years — have emigrated to these shores. To escape your massacres everywhere else. Think about that! It’s what I always come back to. The reason why people come. Here. And don’t stay. There.
So give it up Miraren, your effort to turn truth on its ear by shouting loud enough will simply not work.
Joe Public
Aug 28th, 2005
Actually it’s sort of irrelevant as to who killed more (tho I strongly suspect religion wins by a large margin)…the real issue with religious killings is the zeal they do it with and how they always claim justification through invoking the right to do it in the name of “god”. They are the ultimate hypocrites…christian, muslim , or whatever. At least you can understand a politicians motives….usually pure self-interest, though occaisionally someone slips though the net to do some real public good.
To class China’s huge death toll under Mao as similar to Russia’s under Stalin is a gross misunderstanding of the true nature of the Chinese “Communist” party. The Chinese government was, is and always will be (at least for the near future) just another incarnation of the emporer/governer system that has ruled them for at leaat the last 4000 years or so. Communism was purely a mask of convenience for the masters of the long play.
As an aside not all communist experiments were failures..the most effective example of a communist government ever was the post WWII Japanese system, though never invoked in name as such…not sure where they are headed now, however.
Joe Public
Aug 28th, 2005
You berate Miraren about “billions” and in that space of a heartbeat claim: “It’s one of the reasons while millions – billions over hundreds of years – have emigrated to these shores.”
Hundreds of years?
Billions?
In the USA?
and the current population is what?
~295 million? (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2119rank.html)
How many generations over “hundreds of years”?
Are you familiar with the concept of mathematics at all?
“The U.S. population is growing by about 2.5 million people each year. Of that, immigration contributes over one million people to the U.S. population annually.”
http://npg.org/facts/uspopfax.htm
Let’s give you 900 years (I’m generous) and even give you 1 million people a year for those 900 years (which is a patently STUPID thing to do, but I am arguing with Prok after all) it gives a figure of 900 million…still short of a billion and way less than the “billions over hundreds of years” you claim. In actuality the real figure, due to the technological advances only made in the last 100 years or so in moving people over large distances is probably way way under 300 million immigrants to the USA since it was conquered by the English mayflower banditos.
Check the census stats yourself, going back to the 1700′s:
http://fisher.lib.virginia.edu/collections/stats/histcensus/
You may also want to check out accurate global religious populations stats from INSEAD at http://www.icongrouponline.com/cultures.asp?sid=192221520
(in case you actually want to use factual content in your arguments for a change)
“There is nothing, nothing that compares to the mass murders of the non-West – and to non-US.”
I seem to remember a rather bloody little war between the north and the south, somewhere in the northen continent. Apparently god was on both their sides as well…nothing like playing an even field!
Even makes the mass slaughter of the western front seem tame considering the technology in use at the time.
Are your eye’s brown, btw?
Prokofy Neva
Aug 28th, 2005
Of course it’s just millions, duh, it’s a mistake as I was typing and trying to say millions million — yes millions. There are 295 million now as anyone can see on the cia pages duh but as I pointed out, with only 6 billion on the whole planet, you can’t have billions coming to the US even over 100 years, obviously.
The point is that there are loads and loads of people who have emigrated to the US and for good reason — they are leaving the mass murderers of other countries. The traffic doesn’t go in the other direction. That’s all I need to show to rest my case.
I’m so glad you wasted your time looking up all that stuff and trying to “set me straight” you hectoring asshole. It was already obvious. I was merely trying to say it was milliions over hundreds of years since i knew that raging little asswipes like you would come on and say it couldn’t be millions TODAY.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 28th, 2005
oh and PS, ugh about that example of Japan, jeez, get some Japanese to comment on that, I’ll them to it. And you’re definitely not up on your Russian history if you think Russian communism doesn’t grow right out of the ages of despots including the tsars.
Prokofy Neva
Aug 29th, 2005
Like I said “Joe Public” the civil war of the United States, as bloody as it was, simply has nothing to compare to civil wars in Africa, China, or Russia. You are like so many Amero-centric people in the world. By making America the locus of your vision of evil, you also over-ascribe power to it that it doesn’t have. And you remain morally blind to the real locii of evil of really serious mass murder of an epic scale elsewhere.
Really, there is such an aggressive, vicious mind-influenza run rampant on the Internet that picks up all these half-baked “factlets” and just festers endlessly imagining that America is evil, the thing that was most responsible for creating the Internet and the freedom on it in the first place. Shame on you.