About Freaking Time! Lindens Threaten RL Legal Action Against Global Attackers

by Alphaville Herald on 24/11/05 at 9:57 am

Hopefully, this means I don’t have to write that editorial tearing the Lindens an new one for fiddling and diddling while griefer organizations openly organize denial of service attacks on the grid. For some reason, the Lindens have been treating these attacks as “geez aren’t these kids clever” little pumpkin smashing and toilet-papering exercises, forgetting somehow, or perhaps never believing, that they were supposedly *attempting* to build a new world with a very real economy and very real platform for business development and social and economic networking. But now, finally, Linden law guy Ginsu Linden has said “enough is enough” in this post, and the Lindens are now threatening real life legal action against such denial of service attacks. Our only question is this: why just threaten and why only now. Shouldn’t these guys be in court right F-ing now? Seriously guys, stop huffing those fatties and start protecting the grid.

58 Responses to “About Freaking Time! Lindens Threaten RL Legal Action Against Global Attackers”

  1. The Abusive Granny

    Nov 24th, 2005

    Good grief!
    Ask anyone and they will tell you, I am a griefer. I would never take advantage of custom content and make the already obnoxiously lagging Second Life more so. A true griefer uses social interaction as a way of annoyance.

  2. 782 Naumova

    Nov 24th, 2005

    This is a difficult issue… It’s hard to say what to do.

  3. The Abusive Granny

    Nov 24th, 2005

    What’s wrong with Linden? They are not banning the hackers? Are they stupid? They are making me lag. I didn’t spend money to sit here and be bored because of a frozen game.

  4. TrannyPet Barmy

    Nov 24th, 2005

    Lets get something straight here Granny, W-Hat are not hackers. Hacking involves modifying or accessing with out permission. Writing maclicious scripts is not hacking, it’s exploiting. It’s using what is already there to create undesirable server states.

    They are not modifying anything in this case, they are simply writing a replication script, that soaks up all of the servers resources, as well as the clients in having to render all of the balls. They have not altered any of the fundamental code of SL, nor illegally accessed anything they shouldn’t have.

    Admittedly the ‘god exploit’ could be considered a hack, but outside of this, they are using nothing but LSL.

    The stupidity isn’t so much that they are not banning the ‘hackers’, the stupidity is in the fact that they have not safe guarded against certain states that the grid could be put in via LSL, or, that they havent actually removed from LSL the features that allows such scripts to be written.

    Good rule of thumb : “if you dont want it to happen, then dont leave it open to happening”

    The firelane method of preventing a full scale grid-crash, yeah thats all good, but with in about 5 minutes of reading that article i’d already figured out a way to circumvent that having any effect on the exploit the W-Hats are using to crash the grid.

    On the note of legal action, i’m not entirely sure what the Lindens think they can do about it legally. The only ‘law’ being broken is LindenLab’s ToS. Yes perhaps DoS, however, since the LSL language allows for replication such as this, it’s going to be a dubious case. DoS in the case of things such as a WinNuker, or a SYN flood is a different matter, since thats quite obviously doing things to a system that weren’t intended. In the case of SL though, since the scripting language allows for it, then the system has been designed such that that is perfectly acceptable scripting.

    THE REAL – TrannyPet Barmy

  5. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Nov 24th, 2005

    happy thanksgiving Uri sending you tiny kisses, a really big Stellsy hug and a hot toddy to keep you warm luv.

  6. Harlequin Salome

    Nov 24th, 2005

    Actually, TrannyPet, one could say that what the WHats are doing could be possibly considered an action to disrupt the flow of ebusiness. Its a malicious attempt to disrupt the service. And as Uri points out, people are building a very real economy involving real money. Thus, I think a lawyer could make the point that this was an attack no different than purposefully taking down the computer system of a lawful business.
    Hell, it *is* purposefullytaking downt he computer system of a lawful business.

    And Tranny, just because something is possible doesn’t mean you can do whatever you like. I *can* throw you out a 10th story window, but if I do, can I really defend myself by saying “The window design let me throw them out it and so its legally okay”? Or hell, “They were unable to forsee me throwing them out and furthermore didn’t take steps to keep me from doing it thus its okay”?

    The SL grid is far more than just a server running Quake, its in many ways a living, breathing world, with its own economy. To add to that, its the only grid Linden Labs has. Its not like when my Counterstrike server goes down, so I just jump to another one. WHen the grid goes down Linden Labs needs to devote its full resources to bringing it back up. And that can’t be good for their company, I should think.

    And as for “Good rule of thumb : ‘if you dont want it to happen, then dont leave it open to happening’ “, give me a break. There are literally an infinite ways to crash the grid and otherwise cause issues. TO say that LL is asking for it because they don’t have the infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of laptops working to stop greifers and such is insepid.

    I do have to say that it puzzles me that they’re simply threatening and not doing, but that is the way of the Lindens. I’m not the biggest fan of them, but I will still call a spade a spade and tell you you’re using the same sort of false “If we can do it we should do it and its okay” logic that drives the people who do this stuff.

  7. Bob the Tomato

    Nov 25th, 2005

    Griefing affects a specific person or persons…. such as our dear friend Granny and n00bs…. but a global attack which renders the grid unstable and crashes it is nothing short of e-terrorism.

    Can’t the LSL commands simply be modified so that they don’t infinitely replicate? I mean, is there even a practical use for replication apart from griefing purposes?


  8. Harlequin Salome

    Nov 25th, 2005

    Well, its one of those things where berhaps disabling that part of the code would also cause other non-attack based things to also stop working? The Grid is such a huge thing that even small changes can have huge impacts.

    And the key is not to just take away the weapons these people use, its to deal with the people themselves. Simply taking away the tools just makes it so they go and try something else instead. *shrugs* Its a bandaid on a broken arm.

  9. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Nov 25th, 2005

    I dont understand why Bob is making a distinction between griefing and e terrorism I dont mean to be combative about it I dont understand the reasoning behind it

    Am i the only person who finds it insulting that the GRID is more important than the actual human beings that inhabit it? Sure. No grid no game. But hey, No talent no enriched content. Mafia, Tringo, Prostitution and abusive grannies. Its the difference between quality and quantity. And guess which one is winning out? Linden Labs isnt worried about what you want or need. They are protecting their bottom line. But ask yourself this. If their philosophy is to allow users to build this world and they refuse to intervene over content or behavior of the users in world because they are so progressive and punk rock – never mind that freedom without responsiblity equals chaos so basically they brought this whole damn mess on themselves for not taking a stand on smaller griefing issues – then where do you draw the line? Isnt it hypocritical to intervene at the world grid level but refuse to enforce ToS or even address the most basic rights of its users? What game have you played where ToS is not enforced to the degree its not in Second Life? Maybe it doesnt matter to Linden Labs if their little game experiment survives but it should matter to you. Its your money and your time and your talent thats become a cheap commodity. Dont mean to be a broken record guys and value your opinions on it because im baffled and really would like to understand the complacency here. I just cant seem to get past the fact that W-hat and many other individual griefers have been in Second Life for awhile now and have a long history of harrassing paying users in game without real repercussions for their disruptive behavior. Its natural to assume their attacks would become larger and affect more people over time. With no consequences, theyve been given permission to do this.

  10. Boggle

    Nov 25th, 2005

    Bob, I’m into SL because I want to use it as platform for development of ALIFE, ultimately self regulating. So the replication commands come in handy for me.

  11. montserrat

    Nov 25th, 2005

    what i do not get is why, if they know that a particular group of people who talk on a particular site enjoy these kinds of activities, why it is that they do not send them nice letters saying bye bye, we don’t love you anymore.

    i think if the dear lindens are going to allow trial accounts etc etc they ought to verify against credit card numbers or whatever, just like they do for multiple accounts. banning somebody seems silly when all you need to do is make up another identity birth date and get a new card. can’t they make a deal with one of those giant junkmail databases to verify identity? you know the ones i mean, those databases that are responsible for all that junk in your mailbox that you end up putting in the recycle box?

  12. The Abusive Granny

    Nov 25th, 2005

    Linden sucks my granny lumps…

  13. Neptune Rebel

    Nov 25th, 2005

    The only problem here is what law are they breaking? In the US, we barely have any laws regarding this, since griefing isn’t the same as writing and introducing computer viruses. Maybe intent to damage property? But since the Lindens can remove any object and the effects of griefing aren’t permanent, it may not hold.

    And if the griefers aren’t from the US, since we do have a decent number of non-US users, then what? International cyber law is non-existant, since the UN doesn’t really do much with it and neither does the EU to the best of my knowledge.

    So while it’s an interesting stance, I don’t know if it can actually make an impact.


  14. TrannyPet Barmy

    Nov 25th, 2005

    Actually Harlequin, first off i suggest you read my post properly, and secondly i suggest you read a few CMA’s(Computer Misuse Acts).

    My post firstly was not so concerned with legalities(although i’ll say a word about that in a moment), but more concerned with weather the W-Hat’s are as they are so commonly termed ‘hackers’, which, by definition they are not.

    And Harlequin, actually yes, if it’s possible, especially via a scripting language provided by the service provider then it’s pretty much open invite to use it for what ever purpose. Like i said, it would be best to remove such features that allow this sort of attack to occurr, or, at very least put safeguards in place to automatically detect and prevent undesired server states. To compare this with your “10th story” analogy, yes there is the possibility there for you to throw me from a 10th story, however, i would detect your intention long before you get to do so, and act to prevent you from doing so. You’d be lying on the floor in a bloodied heap spitting teeth at the first sign of any hostility towards me, grabbing or what ever. Similarly, SL’s sim servers should be able to detect undesired server states, and disable any script causing such a state. Surely you understand now. *fingers crossed*

    Yes there are many ways to crash the grid ;) not sure about 100s, but there are many ways, however the last 2 that the W-Hat have used both use the same principle, server load. Now, how hard would it be to monitor the load that any script is generating, and either disable it or throttle it when it reaches a certain level. Most reasonable coders would implement this as a matter of course any way, long before it was required as a preventitive measure !!!!

    There appears to be alot of agreeance here with modifying the LSL language to remove the replication element of it. 2 have pointed out negative aspects to this approach. Well, why dont LindenLab just remove the “allowed script rezzed objects out of source sim” feature. There’s a flag in LSL that can be set TRUE/FALSE with regard to replication(do some readin in the WIKI, i cant remember the name off hand, long time since i’ve been allowed in SL now, so haven’t done much scripting of late). It basically sets weather objects rezzed by a script are allowed to leave the sim they were rezzed in. Remove the ability for script rezzed objects to cross sim boundaries, and it then becomes some what harder to spread the replication accross the whole grid. I hardly think this will cause any large problems to any one in SL, i cant think of many situations where you would want to ability any way, well other than to crash the grid.

    One final note to Harlequin, yes if there was real money involved, then there may be a legal case over it, however, since there is no real money involved, until you choose to sell your virtual currency for hard cash, i think you’d have a hard time proving any case of interruption of business, loss of earnings etc etc ………. I can just imagine you standing up in a court of law accusing the W-Hats of causing you “to loose 500000 Linden Dollars in loss of earnings through causing your virtual business selling bodies to be unaccessible for some time” — i actually think you’d more than likely get laughed out of court for being so sad getting so irate over a GAME !!! It’s you’re choice if you choose to make selling a GAME’s currency your living …….. but dont mistake the fact that that is your income, not the actual business with in the GAME.

    THE REAL – TrannyPet Barmy

    ps. Boggle, you’re not by chance a university lecturer are you ?

  15. The Abusive Granny

    Nov 25th, 2005

    Are you kidding me? Laws for Virtual Reality? The day the United States of America passes a law on something so stupid as an online game is the day I move to Canada. Stop using the word griefer, I am a griefer and griefing is not illegal it’s annoying. “Virtual Terrorist” is the term that is used for those who crash servers and that is as good as hacking because it is effecting your computer.

  16. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Nov 26th, 2005

    i think you missed my point

  17. TrannyPet Barmy

    Nov 26th, 2005

    Granny, you not only show quite clearly your knowledge of CMAs, you also contradict yourself with it :)

    THE REAL – TrannyPet Barmy

  18. Aliasi Stonebender

    Nov 27th, 2005

    The idea “you are allowed to do it, therefore it’s okay” is less than logical in a virtual world context. It’s akin to saying “there is nothing in the laws of the real physical world preventing me from shooting another human being, therefore, shooting another human being is okay!”

    Just as the same processes that enable a gun to shoot have many other, more benevolent uses, so too do the functions in SL that can be used to grief.


  19. TrannyPet Barmy

    Nov 27th, 2005

    Maybe not, but in a digital world, where that ‘ability to do something’ that causes undesirable effects is easily removed, surely it would be a ‘logical’ and sensible step to persue this avenue of prevention, rather than the costly avenue of legal proceedings, AFTER the act has occured.

    In the real world, ideally, we’d remove all guns from the civilian arena, how ever gun amnestys never work, because certain people wont hand over their weapons, and short of declaring a state of facism/communism, most governments are unable to search every house in the country for any offensive weapons that should be taken out of play. In SL however, the guiding force(equivilent of the govt. in the real world), The Lindens, could just take away the ability to script such exploits, by removing that one simple flag variable.

    So your arguement against the fact that its there means it’s okay to use it, is fundamentally flawed, in that you’re not comparing like with like, and are therefore missing out the ability that the prevailing governing force have to remove the ability to execute such scripts in the virtual world(an ability not available to most democratic real world governments). If the Linden’s didn’t want citizens to have the ability to create such scripts, then they would remove the portions of LSL that allow them to be made, and in one go – PROBLEM SOLVED. The very fact that they don’t implies either the opposite, they want people to create such scripts, or, they simply are not that bothered about what happens due to scripts of this nature.



    THE REAL – TrannyPet Barmy

  20. TrannyPet Barmy

    Nov 27th, 2005

    I also think we’re blurring two things here, “morally okay” and “legally okay”.

    Morally, i would agree with you, it’s completely unacceptable morally to cause SL’s grid to fall over and die, interrupting business etc etc …….

    However, legally, since LSL allows for such scripts to be written, and as a matter of point, since the script is actually being run server side on one of SL’s own machines(meaning SL is attacking SL), i really dont see that any law has been broken in most western country’s CMAs. The only infringement has been on SL’s ToS(some clause about not writing malicious scripts).

    Infact, thinking further on this, i would suggest the fact that SL actually leaves the ability in there to write such scripts, should they ever bring a case against any of the WHat, it could quite easily get slung out of court on grounds of ‘entrapment’

    The people who should be bringing court cases if any, are those who feel that their business has been interuppted by these exploits. They should be filing cases against LindenLab for NEGLIGENCE, ie; LindenLab have neglected to remove the ability for such scripts to be written, even after knowing full well what these scripts involve, and knowing how to stop them working. But again, i think since the business is virtual/game based, and since no real money is involved until some one chooses to sell their game currency, i think this would be a hard case to prove any worth of compensation.

    The REAL – TrannyPet Barmy

  21. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Nov 28th, 2005

    I hope Linden Labs does obtain legal advice or files a lawsuit. They do everything ass backwards. If they wanna spend all their money on lawyer fees and suing their own users then Second Life will close. I wont cry. Thats justice. Moreover, removing the ability to create these scripts will solve zero problems. They started out harrassing and verbally abusing players and were not punished. They thought “oh i didnt get in trouble for that. Hmm wonder what other rules i can bend here” They moved on to push scripts that crashed users pcs and spamming particles to create horrific lag. “Gee, I still have my account. Hey! that was fun Im so clever :D I wonder what else i can get away with” What im saying to you is that if basic ToS was enforced NONE of this crap would happen. Youll never anticipate every different way to crash that grid. Thell make a game of finding new ways to crash it or create havoc. And if abuse reports were effective these people would be long gone from Second Life. It wouldve filtered out 98% of sociopathic behavior. But no, we gotta make it complicated and debate and speculate over the ramifications of legal actions.

  22. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Nov 28th, 2005

    “98% of sociopathic behavior” Sorry LOL im laughin at myself. I dont know where i came up with that percentage. Krikey . . ive gone practically rabid over this topic. I give up. Next topic Uri :)

  23. Marsellus Wallace

    Nov 28th, 2005

    It does not matter if it is ran on SL’s servers or not. Most virus’s are launched from the individuals machine. So with your argument, yes everyone is partially responsible for this, but ultimately it was the virus maker who released the virus who is responsible. Most DoS attacks are ran using spoofed IP addresses or from virtual PC’s, things like that. Is it the person who owns the machines or the person who executed the malicious attack that is responsible? It is the launcher of course. Just becuase you own a gun, doesn’t mean you have to shoot people with it. Otherwise, guns would be outlawed in rl.

    A DoS attack regardless of where it is launched from or how it is acheived is still a felony. It’s not like these attacks are costing Linden Labs Lindens, it is costing them real dollars. There is no need to blame shift this on Linden Labs. Sure they are partially responsible, however, they are not responsible for the players actions. The EULA clearly states that. If you know programming too, you would know certain things like this cannot simply be fixed by changing the language (LSL) used.

    Marsellus Wallace

  24. TrannyPet Barmy

    Nov 29th, 2005

    Marsellus, your post makes very little sense at all, you also appear to be speaking about things that you evidently have no real knowledge.

    “Most DoS attacks are ran using spoofed IP addresses or from virtual PC’s, things like that” – doesn’t really instil any sense of expertise from you in me, especially since the attacks we are talking about are all being executed from a LindenLab owned machine, not an external user’s machine, so where you feel spoofed IPs or virtual pcs come into the equation i have no idea.

    Although in your final paragraph you do partially agree with me “The EULA clearly states that ……” which is a point i did raise previously ……… ie; i don’t really see how any law relative to a CMA has been broken, only a term of of the ToS/EULA have been infringed upon. And, again, as already already said, if any one is guilty of anything, with any sound legal footing, i would say it’s LindenLab on a count of Negligence, in failing to put right their game engine in order to prevent such server states occurring again.

    Just for your information regarding your comment of “If you know programming”, yes, i do “know programming”, and have been coding for nearly 30 years now, in languages by far superior to LSL, writing code for games to business applications, and even my own command shells ………… and i can tell you right now point blank, that, LindenLab could with reasonably little effort, either remove the said variable/flag from the LSL language it’s self with little impact(i can’t see many situations where you’d want to allow a script rezzed object to leave the sim it was rezzed in with out malicious intent), or modify the game engine in order to monitor instances script rezzing objects, and act appropriately as and where nessecary.

    To be honest though, all in all, it’s all really no bother to me since i’ve been out of the game for some time now, due to what i describe as an “easily abusable abuse report system”, but i really can’t be bothered going into that now, suffice to say that, if LindenLabs has treated others the way they have treated me with regards to that system, then there’s little wonder they have many enemies who are happy to ruin their system. Personally i’m past those thoughts, and i’m not all that much into the malicious side of things, but, need i say more, i could tell you how to grind SecondLife to halt, i could also tell you how to make WHat’s exploit continue to work, despite SL’s firelane tactic ………. but instead i am sitting back, watching the effects of their actions upon others, and just waiting for the day when i can simply say “told you so”

    LindenLab would do well to invest more in their “Abuse Report System” long before they plan all this expansion, and economy exchange etc etc ….. Like i told them many times, sooner or later, they will take action on an account, based soley upon past actions, with no further real investigation into the complaint(just as they did me), and they’ll stamp on some one by far out of their league, and then it will be GAME-OVER for SecondLife. Not much point investing and expanding an environment that due to it’s Abuse Reporting System, is highly likely to either not exist at all, or only exist in a non-usable state in a year or so.

    THE REAL – TrannyPet Barmy

  25. No One of Consequence

    Nov 29th, 2005

    You know, there’s a legal philosophy that considers a court of law to be the ‘last resort’ in disputes between two persons. It’s somewhat late so you can google for references, however the cliff notes version is that courts expect you to take all neccessary steps possible to rectify an issue /before/ taking another party to court.

    This is why you see ‘cease and desist’ notifications all over the net when a corp wants something to stop, as that’s considered the polite ‘first step’. If a corp were to simply drag someone to court without doing this, the defense would simply ask ‘Oh, you wanted us to stop doing that? $100 in damages because of lost profits? Okay.’, and the claimant immediately looks like a total jackass in front of a judge.

    Now I’m not a lawyer, but legal action when cheaper and far more basic steps could be taken first, is somewhat inane.

  26. Marsellus Wallace

    Nov 30th, 2005

    Don’t know what I am talking about? I’m sorry, I guess I’ll put my college education in Network Security in the trash now. I guess Intel hired me for no apparent reason to support their million dollar mainframes as well as their Emergency Virus Responce Team. You’re right, I have no knowledge.. Tard.

    You been programming for 30 years? Funny, I been programming for about 10 years and appear to know more than you about it. perhaps it’s time to update your education.

    If it’s of no bother to you and you no longer play, why post? I rest my case. I’m not going to go round and round on this one, so feel free to reply back, don’t expect a reply in return.

    Marsellus Wallace

  27. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 1st, 2005

    Don’t bother replying, either way, i’ve already shown in my post why you appear to not know what you’re talking about, and i suspect your further claims in this post are yet more complete BS. If not, and if my assumptions are incorrect, then, i suggest you talk as you claim you are, not like a 2nd rate wannabe expert that the internet is so full of.

    “i been programming for 10 years and appear to know more than you about it” – oh i see, and exactly where do you draw this assumption from ? Have you any applications running online that we can make some comparison of ? Oh and i don’t mean a website (some static html), or some LSL script running in SL, i mean a proper application ? I mean a proper application written with a compiled language, not some silly scripted thing. Put up, or shut up.

    THE REAL – TrannyPet Barmy

  28. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 1st, 2005

    Oh i almost forgot Marsellus, http://kchat.sytes.net , is one of mine, one of many. (Server written in Java, a client written in Java, and a new client written in Flash & ActionScript.)

    Lets see what you have – put up, or, shut up :)

    The Real – TrannyPet Barmy

  29. Cello_ Bertone

    Dec 5th, 2005


  30. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 5th, 2005

    lol yeah ouch, and there’s more to come, SL-ALT is actually beginning to build some momentum in it’s development, now that i’m pretty much sold on the engine to use :)

    screen shots on http://www.secondcentral.com

    There are other things that i have online, but obviously i can’t share everything with you all ;)

    TrannyPet (The REAL ONE)

  31. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Dec 5th, 2005

    Tranny conveys his/her points eloquently and has solid common sense reasoning behind what is said (from what ive seen.) He doesnt have to prop himself up or lord over others to make his points. Ive seen zero bragging from Tranny and yet I respect this persons opinion. I think certain people *ahem – see above posts* should take lessons from this enitity on how to discuss topics without completely alienating others with an enormous ego. Bring it. I wont cry to Uri.

  32. Marsellus Wallace

    Dec 5th, 2005

    Oooooh, man I got told!!! lol OMG, I’m laughing hella hard… I wasn’t going to reply, but I’m in a good mood so let’s see what you got.. Besides the last posts were so humorous I want to see what else you come up with.

    Ohhh you can program java and flash.. Most people with a website can do that. I’m sorry that my specialty is in-house enterprise applications and logistics support (SAP, etc) and therefore have nothing to show online for you besides my resume which probably looks better than yours.

    Anyway, you can do a website (If you even want to call it that) and some basic stuff.. Man, I guess I should just shut up now lolol For someone who’s been doing this for 30 years, you think you would be better at it. I’m not doubting that you have certain programming skills. I never once have. However, who are you to doubt I know what I am talking about?

    Remember all this started because I said simply removing part of a language is not a feasible solution to the problem and will just cause more problems, expecially for existing scripts. I’m sorry that when I go to find solutions I look for one that will cause the least amount of impact. I guess I was trained improperly along with the other hundreds of thousands of people who know this for a basic fact lolol

    Besides, in most languages, simply removing a section of the language is not an option. You would have to rewrite a good majority of it depending on how much the rest of the language interacts and works with that section of code. Even those that don’t interact with that code could be affected. You never know what will happen and usually requires months and months of testing to be sure. Once again, not too feasible for this kind of situation. I think even you would have to agree with me on this. Sure what you’re saying is theoretically possible, but not the best solution.

    Stellsy.. If it’s one thing you have common in most of your posts, you like to kiss ass to try to make yourself look more legit. So why should this post be any different? lol You think by complimenting someone else it makes what you have to say special? Fughedaboudit. Oh ya, go back and read Tranny’s posts.. You’re right they are not at all giving themselves an ego or boosting themselves.. Zero bragging you say.. Maybe you need to relook at the posts and then comment. 30 YEARS!!! roflmao

    Stellsy, give it up. I make you look stupid almost everytime you post trying to talk crap about me. Aren’t you tired of it yet? I wasn’t even going to reply to Tranny, but your post sealed the deal. I’m not looking to argue or insult anyone, I truly am not. Maybe if people didn’t try it with me first, I wouldn’t do it in return.

    What you call an ego Stellsy, I call an education whether it be in MMORPG’s or it be in the real world. I never once claimed to know everything or that my dick is bigger than anyone elses. Just like I never said that I was a better programmer than Tranny. I simply stated what Tranny was offering as a solution is not a feasible solution. Tranny is the one who got all butt hurt over it. I generally do not talk about topics I do not know about and when I do not know about them I make that point clear prior to the rest of my post to not make me look like an ass.

    Marsellus Wallace
    Tranny and Stellsy, in a battle of wits, even together, you are seriously unarmed.

  33. Urizenus

    Dec 5th, 2005

    Stellsy, Tranny, and Mars, I seriously wish you guys would become as bored with this exchange as I am. Guess what: no one will even remember who posted last, so let’s not hold out for that profound honor.

  34. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 5th, 2005

    “Besides, in most languages, simply removing a section of the language is not an option. You would have to rewrite a good majority of it depending on how much the rest of the language interacts and works with that section of code.”

    correct, IF you dont replace it with a null version of the portions that you removed, and if you were half the coder you claim to be you’d realise that this flag variable is simply checked at the point a script rezzed object attempts to move into another sim. Knowing that, you then realise what a simple change this would be to make :-

    from “if (flag) …………” to “if (false) ………”

    not very difficult at all really huh ? One variable changed to a hard value in one line of code, and the problem is solved. Recompile. From now when the engine checks to see if an object is allowed to exit the sim it was created it, it will always be disallowed, regardless of any scripting …………

    In other words Marsellus :-

    a) No script changes are required
    b) The change is VERY viable
    c) The change is so minimally disruptive that almost no objects in the game will act any differently than they did, bar of course the malicious ones that will now be confined to the sim they were created in.
    d) The LSL language still functions exactly as it did, even scripts that set the flag variable, although now the flag is simply ignored
    e) I think i’ve just proved you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, and yes, *IF* any one else reading this agrees with you, then they too have no idea what they are talking about :)

    I think you also need to look at the context that the “30 years” came up in. It wasn’t even mentioned until you started up trying to tell me i didn’t have a clue, and you were Coder God or something.

    Talking of which, still waiting for you to support this, show us some of the things you’ve done, dont just talk about it…………

    I’ve already given you the url to KChat, but, here you go, here’s a screenshot of my latest project, SL-Alt :-


    Wonders if i’m still going to get told i don’t know what i’m talking about regarding the writing of 3D world environments ;)

    “Tranny and Stellsy, in a battle of wits, even together, you are seriously unarmed.” – i guess you’ve not quite worked this out then Marsellus ? This is no battle of wits, if a battle at all, you’re such a blatent BS’er this is a push over. It’s a ‘battle’ of *FACTS*, and you don’t seem to have any, or at very least, you don’t seem to be able to bring anything you say into the world of the factual, ie; by showing material to support as you say.


    TrannyPet Barmy (THE REAL one)

  35. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 5th, 2005

    …….. or, if you want to go one step further, if you want it in OOP style :-


    class WorldObject
    public boolean canCrossSimBoundary()
    return this.canCrossBoundaryFlag;


    class WorldObject
    public boolean canCrossSimBoundary()
    return false;

    LOL if you want it in C++ format rather than Java, just say so ;)

    TrannyPet Barmy

  36. whatevr

    Dec 5th, 2005

    The paper is biased.

  37. Walker Spaight

    Dec 5th, 2005

    No, it’s always fairly unbalanced.

  38. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 5th, 2005

    Yes it’s not

  39. Marsellus Wallace

    Dec 5th, 2005

    lol Aight Uri, I’ve made my point anyway.

    Marsellus Wallace
    I kn0w pr0gramm1ng, 1 mu5t b3 3l1te LOLOL

  40. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 5th, 2005

    The only point you’ve made so far Marsellus is you’re full of it, since you wont support the claims you make.

    Along with the fact that we’re still waiting for you to show some examples of the things you’ve coded to support you’re claim of being uber-coder, the “I kn0w pr0gramm1ng, 1 mu5t b3 3l1te LOLOL” comment only reinforces the fact that you have nothing more to offer than BS, sarcasm, and unsupported claims.

    I wonder if it will ever materialise or if it will remain in the realms of fantasy along with your unsupported claims. Are you just going to talk talk talk or are you going to support/prove that what you say is fact and not just BS ?

    A few of your comments i didn’t return a comment on in my previous post,

    “Ohhh you can program java and flash.. Most people with a website can do that.” – yes amongst numerous other technologies, i can program in Java, and Flash’s actionscript. But then there’s 2 i’m demonstrating, and a 3rd being the technologies used in SL-ALT, as yet you’ve shown nothing, and “I’m sorry that my specialty is in-house enterprise applications and logistics support (SAP, etc) and therefore have nothing to show online”, is no excuse, a cover perhaps, but an excuse no. Since you’re uber-code God, why dont you show how great you are and knock something up to put online ……………. i tell you why not, because you cant, you’re talking out of your backside.

    “Anyway, you can do a website (If you even want to call it that) and some basic stuff.. Man, I guess I should just shut up now lolol For someone who’s been doing this for 30 years, you think you would be better at it.” – Yes i can “do a website”, and yes generally any point on the web is known as a site. As for the quality of the web-design, i’ve not claimed to be a web designer now have i ? Although web development is a part of my employment role. I also seem to remember pointing you to the site to look at the chat system, not the website, so now i guess i need to point out to you the fact that the site is only a container for the project, ie; the chat it’s self is the focal point, so very little time went into the site presentation. Although to be honest, i suspect you’re desperately clutching at straws now for any derrogative comment you could possibly make.

    Keep on trying Marsellus, you may be able to fool some of the people some of the time, but you’ll never fool all of the people all of the time ;) ……….. and this time you’ve been sprung for the BS’er you are.

    And yes, i still maintain you have no idea what you’re talking about, even after the plain and simple explanation given above about code changes, you still persist with silly comments.


    TrannyPet Barmy
    The Real One

  41. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Dec 5th, 2005

    *giggles insanely* sorry Uri

  42. Tye rebuH

    Dec 5th, 2005

    The thing about the TOS is it will never hold up in court if LL uses it against a member or members of w-hat. A simple checkmark does not count as signature there have already been cases of this and they never hold out google it. Most of you probably have already heard stories of this but just keep this as a note.

    Tye rebuH

  43. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Tye, this is true, but even more fundamental than that is that no matter what you tick a box for, or even sign your name on, in a court of law, unless an actually law of the land has been violated, the court would find you guilty of no crime.

    Agreeing to the ToS by checking the box means nothing more than, you’ve said “i agree to what’s stated in the ToS and should i step outside of these guidelines, i full understand that LindenLab can enforce restrictions on my account or ultimately terminate my usage and throw me out with no further a do”

    The courts are for the law of the land, the ToS is for the law of LindenLab.

    TrannyPet Barmy
    The Real One

  44. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 6th, 2005

    btw just as a point to note, as i’m working my way through coding SL-ALT, i’m already thinking about the ‘law system’ for it, and at the moment, i’m thinking a much better model would be for the law to be set per ‘sim’ by the ‘sim’ owner.

    Any comments ?

    The Real One

  45. Marsellus Wallace

    Dec 6th, 2005


    Marsellus Wallace
    That’s all I have to say about that.

  46. Marsellus Wallace

    Dec 6th, 2005

    I have a comment. How bout you come up with your own idea instead of piggy backing off someone else’s game. lolol

    Marsellus Wallace
    Weeeeeeeeeee!!! This is fun!

  47. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 7th, 2005

    You really are a no-one aren’t you ? In this thread BS’ing that you’re some great uber-coder, and in another claiming to be some great land hustler …………….

    I have a comment for you Marsellus, trying being something in real life instead of using the internet to get by your misgivings and portray yourself as what you really wish you were.

    Regarding your comment though Marsellus, if you knew much about the environment you use, you’d realise there are quite a few others out there similar, and SecondLife was not the first. 3D environments have been around for eons !!!! I can even remember seeing one on a UK science program, ‘Tomorrows World’, in the early 80s !!! So as far as coming up with my own idea goes, correct, this isn’t my idea, but as for stealing someone else’s ie; SecondLife’s, you are, as per usual, sorely incorrect. On top of which the 3d environment concept is *so* abstract, it’s hardly like any one could lay claim to it.

    Any way Marsellus, still nothing to show us in support of your claims above i see ? Still just trying to prove some point you think you have with taunt ? Still waiting to see some sites where we can see demonstrations of your work Marsellus. I have this feeling you’re some second rate LSL scriptor, who having learnt to make an object move in a 3d world, now feels he’s made the acheivement of the decade, mind you, saying that, if you calculated acheivement as a ratio of mental capability to an individual’s maximum potential ability …………… you’d be on a winner !!! Unfortunately for Marsellus though, that’s not the way it works, and he’s still just a 2nd rate LSL scriptor.

    To every one else – if you have any comments(constructive), please feel free to visit SecondCentral.com and drop them in the forum under the General Discussions all about providing an alternative 3D environment similar to SL :-


    Your input is valued.

    The Real TrannyPet Barmy

    ps. If he were the coder he claims to be, LSL would be so much a piece of cake to him, that he’d be knocking out scripts worthy of sale left, right and centre, and making a fortune from sales on SLEX. Strangely though, i don’t see any scripted objects making any large amounts of cash for Marsellus on SLEX ;) Leads me to beleive my assumptions to be correct.

  48. Fallen Hasp

    Dec 7th, 2005

    Uri said to drop it Mars

  49. Marsellus Wallace

    Dec 7th, 2005

    I did drop it if you notice. I’m not the one you need to tell that to. =P My comments are now are strictly for fun and have nothing to do about the previous topic. =)

    Marsellus Wallace
    Once again, this is fun!! Weeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

    P.S. Hasp, I am a land hustla.. Ask Uri hehehe
    P.S.S. Tranny, quit getting all butt hurt about your lack of skills. You brought this onto yourself and I have already proven my points. Hell, you have helped me prove most of them LOL

  50. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 7th, 2005

    “I did drop it if you notice”, followed shorly afterwards by “P.S.S. Tranny, quit getting all but hurt about your lack of skills. You brought this onto yourself and I have already proven my points. Hell, you have helped me prove most of them LOL” – some what self-contradictive wouldn’t you say, first he’s dropped it, and then he hasn’t ?

    As far as proving anything is concernced, you’ve proven nothing, nothing more than you can talk. Where are the demonstrations of your coding capability ? I haven’t seen you post anything to support your claims as yet. All i’ve seen is “i can ….”, “i have ……”, “you can’t ……” etc etc, and the one thing missing “…. and is demonstrated such here ………”.

    In response to, “you brought this onto yourself”, yes you did, and now instead of just giving up and admitting you’re talking out of your behind, or just keeping quiet, you now continue to make yourself look stupid by further making claims that you’ve proven something you haven’t, when, any one here can quite easily read throught the comments above and see you’ve done nothing but talk.

    As you say Marsellus, “i’ve proven my points”(and my points actually *have* been proven with supporting material), and since it’s evident that it’s not only i who realises you’re FOS, i see no need to persue any further conversation with you.

    TrannyPet Barmy
    The REAL One

    ps. Learn from your mistakes :)

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