A Merry Denominational Xmas to You!
by Alphaville Herald on 16/12/05 at 1:07 pm
Happy Hannukah! Joyous Kwanzaa! Lovely Diwali! Have a nice Ramadan! Merrrrrry Christmas!!!!1!
That’s what Blizzard Entertainment, the corporate cog behind World of Warcraft, is saying to their 4 million-plus players this holiday season. A new holiday patch released this week adds some fun new content to the game, in the form of a big Christmas tree in a number of Azeroth’s cities, reindeer mounts, some holiday quests that can turn you into a Christmas gnome (or earn you about 5 gold at the Auction House, if you choose to sell your gingerbread cookies there), mistletoe you can kiss under and snowballs that can be purchased from Santa’s helpers and actually thrown at other players. Of course, none of the NPC Orcs and Gnomes call it by name, but gone missing among all the fun stuff is any nod to a fantasy religion resembling anything other than Christmas.
While the Herald likes Christmas as much as the next virtual newspaper (and really likes virtual snowballs), the oversight has left some players at a loss. There’s hardly a groundswell of discontent, but chatter could be heard here and there this week indicating that Blizzard’s choice of holiday might not be everyone’s. Of course, players heard to complain in the main chat channel were generally laughed off the server by their teenaged peers. But it does leave one wondering how WoW’s substantial Asian population feels about the choice, for instance, or how it strikes the guys named UAEtoon and similar things.
You may feel that Christmas is by now a non-denominational holiday in itself, having had all religious content commercialized right out of it. But not everyone agrees. Worth a discrimination lawsuit? Let’s hope not. But it is worth noting, for better or worse, that in a world in which political correctness has many people choking on their kwanzaa pie, Blizzard has chosen to take the straight and simple route and nod only to the Santa set.
And then there’s the alarming amount of leg certain NPCs have taken to showing under the mistletoe! Shocking! (See below.)
Not easily mistaken for a Hannukah elf
Kiss
Dec 16th, 2005
FWIW, over in TSO they’re going through the same thing (again). They have “holiday trees” which has the “Christmas tree” folks upset.
JP
Dec 16th, 2005
Sheesh, people complaining about it need to get a life. Blizzard added extra content to the game — nothing more, nothing less. Every patch that comes out is always debated, they can’t please everyone. And big hairy deal if it doesn’t appeal to everyone. As an example, I don’t partake in the Chinese New Year, but I do let people who enjoy the Chinese New Year to do so without a complaint from me.
Non-denom or not, political correctness has been taken so far these days that it can intrude upon common sense, logic, using a brain, and freedom of speech and religion. One man’s anti-religionism is just as religious as another man’s religion.
Let people enjoy the holiday for once. It won’t kill you. Oh, and MERRY CHRISTMAS! So grow up and game on!
Prokofy Neva
Dec 16th, 2005
Well, I guess I can’t get terribly exercised about this. It’s like the problem with SL — it’s not really a government, not anything that sees itself in the public domain concerned with the public weal, it’s just a game company, and as such, with its subscribers constitutes something like say, a gentlemen’s club or a casino. Private clubs run by private individuals or corporations aren’t obligated to try to provide any kind of pluralism or access to the public square for a variety of communities.
If you had to pick the Lindens’ “religion,” I guess it would be “Californian”. They even have something about “SLestivus” on one of their in-house organs. In fact, go look up that publication they put out called Second Opinion or whatever on their official website, and they feature something like 6 residents’ homes with snowmen, trees, and the usual stuff. No Hanukkah dreidels here!
Really, these games are American in spirit, they are mass entertainment, and 75-85 percent of Americans, when polled, say they are nominally Christian (in culture, actually religious, hard to know). These are findings from Pew and other polsters.
Their cultural symbols, like trees, creches, reindeer, etc. are particularly important in these winter family-oriented holidays.
Another Pew poll found that 64 percent of those online said they were using the Internet for spiritual purposes, i.e. for guidance, sending prayer cards, etc.
I’m well aware that there’s a hard core of geekers and gamers and leftoids who like to overthrow the world’s great religions of the book, often on the grounds that they “control people” or “discriminate against women” or “are corrupt” in order to….adopt other cultish belief systems like pagan and wiccan and Gorean and whatnot that…um….control people, turn women into slaves, and are secretive and unaccountable about what they do LOL. Fun!
I know it annoys this sectarian minority no end that there is such a thing as Christianity, and that Americans by and large consider themselves a Christian nation, at least with trappings like the dollar bill.
I can only say: deal with it. These are cultural realities that you can’t overthrow. It’s fine to be tolerant, respectful, and educated about minorities. It’s not fine for minorities to use totalitarian methods to overthrow majorities, i.e. banning their symbols from the public sphere, demanding dilution of their symbols, etc.
Christmas isn’t really a non-denominational holiday, because most people polled about it who celebrate it will have something to say about it being the birth of Jesus and many go to church that one time a year only on Christmas. To be sure, in some large urban center, in some public school systems, there is a drive to make “Our Winter Holidays” all on a level so that holidays like Christmas, with 2,000-year old traditions behind them are put on par with something like Kwanzaa, manufactured by a professor in a university in the 1970s to try to sustain what some view to be an artificial cultural awareness. And it’s a bit hilarious to put Ramadan in “our winter holiday calendar” at this time when the dates of lunar-calendar-based religions shift quite a bit; recently a Muslim explained to me that in 40 years of your life, you’d follow this calendar around – it’s different than the solar-calendar-based religions. Interesting!
I think when the Chinese and Saudi and other huge powerful governments and makers of culture around the world can either themselves fund and deploy huge game spaces, or create the climate in their countries for entrepreneurs to create these games, you won’t see all this Christmas tree stuff.
(I get particularly clutched up with laughter when the Goreans wheel out this stuff about how the U.S. isn’t a Christian nation by digging up some Internet urban legend sort of “fact” about a treaty one signed ages ago in which the government disavowed being a Christian nation in order to deal with some temporary situation of the day involving pirates. So please, in arguing with me on this thread, don’t wheel out that old chesnut because it’s just so plain silly that you’ll only look bad invoking it — k thx!)
Fallen Hasp
Dec 16th, 2005
Christians are the majority in the states and their Christmas is mostly secular. They rush home to play their new X Box after church service. I can easily flip through broadcasting or ignore game content targeted towards Christians and smile knowing most of their holiday traditions origionally came from old pagan rituals.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 16th, 2005
Smile knowingly all you wish, Fallen, all main religions came from pre-religious traditions, but even if it is “superficial,” these mainstream Americans do go to church and do sing the hymns and do look at the creche — they don’t go and dance naked around in a circle under the moon or something. Culture and civilization, however thin you might think their layers, do mean something. The reason you can talk about “old pagan rituals” is because they got superseded. To return to them is not progress.
Fallen Hasp
Dec 16th, 2005
Im usually a fan of Prok but you are coming across as extremely intolerant of other cultures and religions. Thats unfortunate because we are not intolerant of you. You are showing your bigotry, Prok. My post showed my willingness to allow for Christianity within the culture and gaming community. If i smile to myself that doesnt mean im rubbing the truth in anyone’s face. Most pagans Ive known have no interest in converting you. Is your blatent disrespect a sign of fear? We just want to coexist without persecution. If your Christ is that important to you then why dont you try acting more like him? He would have never lashed out at a pagan the way you just did. Be Christ like and show tolerance for others or be a hypocrite. Merry Christmas indeed. Tis the season to alienate anyone who is different, demonize them and make fun of their core beliefs.
Fallen Hasp
Dec 17th, 2005
“Of course, none of the NPC Orcs and Gnomes call it by name, but gone missing among all the fun stuff is any nod to a fantasy religion resembling anything other than Christmas.”
Thats not entirely true. I understand the point being made here and agree that it does indeed mirror traditional Christmas imagery. However, one of the main seasonal quests takes you to the Hall of Explorers on a mission to deliver a book. This book explains the Feast of Winter Veil in detail. Nowhere in Blizzards description does it refer to anything remotely Christian. Father Winter is described as a supernatural being or titan. And, i could easily quote sections from this book which clearly show Blizzard took a dimplomatic stance on the entire issue, allowing for every culture, race and religion to celebrate in their own ways. I would agree that anyone who has a complaint about the imagery should get over it. But, in saying that, it is understandable why certain players, across the globe, might feel alienated by the imagery. And, I dont see any reason to be hostile or insensitive about it. They pay to play a westernized game and they have a right to their opinions.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 17th, 2005
Fallen, you couldn’t be more wrong. I’m sure that you’re waxing indignant like this because it’s just very hard to take when people stand up for the world’s great religions, especially Christianity, isn’t it? You’d like me to fall into step with the group-think of these games like Second Life, where it’s cool to be pagan/wiccan/ etc but I find it actually hilarious that people are merely trading one set of what they claim is the worst features of the major religions for another belief system with the same or worse features.
And I’ll go on saying that and you’ll not be able to dissuade me and compel me to think that because I express my opinions about alternative belief systems outside the mainstream, that I am a persecutor and a hater. That’s ridiculous, and oppressive all on its own. I’m merely an expresser of opinions about alternative belief systems outside the mainstream LOL.
One of the most common things that pagans do in these arguments is suddenly get all Christy and try to think: “What Would Jesus Do?” more than a born-again even does, and they start hectoring and lecturing about how “you should be more like Christ” blah blah. You have to wonder how all of a sudden, Christ and His works become a value for you…when 10 minutes before, you were trashing Him and celebrating those who hold Black Masses and whatnot. It really is so hypocritical to see.
You honour Christ and His works by setting him up as an example you believe people should follow, to the point of even attempting to shame and humiliate people you think “aren’t following His ways”? Then…why are you even THINKING of haranguing them in the first place of their use of symbols and celebration of Christmas??? That’s the hypocrisy. If you think Christ is a yardstick — then don’t get all huffy when others in fact incorporate that into their culture at the outset.
“Intolerance” of pagans would be to say “they should be removed from the game…this is a Christian nation, y’all, they are of the Devil” blah blah. But I didn’t say that. What I said was I don’t care for their belief system, and I ARGUE AGAINST IT. It’s ok to ARGUE AGAINST somebody’s belief system, to debate it, to attempt to prove it is wrong, to show its weak points — like one of the more glaring ones, where bunches of people overthrow the world’s great religions of the book, often on grounds that they are oppressive, and then proceed to oppress others with even worse belief systems. Often done in the name of fuck-you hedonism, like I get to do WTF I want and the hell with you all — so prevalent in SL.
It’s ok to ARGUE AGAINST beliefs that one finds silly, or contradictory, or whatever. You’re doing it yourself to me, and you’re doing it to all those who want to have the holiday season have some relevance to Christian tradition.
If anything, these discussions always originate with the atheists/pagans/wiccan etc starting out by heckling and hectoring those with the Christian symbols and beliefs and hounding them out of the public square or even merely public display, i.e. on their own lawns and private property. It’s insane. And naturally people fight back hard when you do that.
Your trying to characterize yourself as “persecuted” or me as “intolerant” because I pointed out the most salient problem about all these nouveau retreaded belief systems: they merely replicate the same problems they claimed to have left behind in the mainstream religions.
RB
Dec 17th, 2005
Religion has no place in game.
Christmas is not a religious holiday anymore.
TSO still up? lol. The trash will be taken out soon enough.
Down with EA, the incompetant Walmart of the video games industry.
Merry Christmas and a Happy new year to all of SLH.
- RB.
TrannyPet Barmy
Dec 17th, 2005
It’s very very very simple.
Who ever owns that game world, in my opinion, is entitled to call Christmas as they please. It’s their world !!!
If Muslims, Hindus, Satanists, Pagans whoever dont like it, and are that much offended by it, then ………… FUCK OFF, TOUGH SHIT …….. it’s not your world, it’s not your decision. You may well be able to play the rules in the real world over acts of descrimination etc … luckily though, the majority of those rules don’t apply in cyberspace, thank fuck.
If it really causes that much offense, come back after the season. I really don’t see how some one should be allowed to have control over a game, simply because their religion is not that of the owners or majority.
Whiney fucks like this really piss me of, do you hear Christians moaning about Asians celebrating Duvali in november(or when ever it is) ? No you dont, if any thing alot of Christians here will go and join in with the celebrations, experience another culture, not try and make some big issue over it.
The majority of the world is Christian beleif, and more so the West. The Christians in the west have bent over backwards accomadating other minority religions and races, including introducing descrimination laws ……….. and yet these people still want more, it’s really starting to take the piss, when will it stop ? Fine i totally agree that a Christian shouldnt be able to say “this is a christian country, you cant have duvali” or “your asian beleifs dont count for shit”, and any one trying to stop their celebrations or beleifs would be in serious trouble here. Like wise though, this sort of crap is now turning the opposite way, we now have Muslims and Hindus and all the rest trying to say “Christians cant have their Christmas” !!!!!!!!! It’s almost like we’ve brought in discrimination laws to protect the minorities which are now being abused and it’s the MAJORITY THAT NOW NEEDS PROTECTION !!!!
IF YOU DONT LIKE CHRISTMAS THEN FUCK OFF UNTIL ITS OVER – STOP TAKING THE PISS WITH ALL YOUR WHINEY CRAP LIKE “Christmas is offensive to my religion”
TrannyPet Barmy
The REAL ONE
Fallen Hasp
Dec 17th, 2005
Well all this anger best not be directed at me. I have never once complained about the imagery in WoW. Prok, you are out of your mind. Im not here for you to unload your angst on. Ive done nothing to you. And, im not your therapist guys.
“I’m sure that you’re waxing indignant like this because it’s just very hard to take when people stand up for the world’s great religions, especially Christianity, isn’t it?”
No. its not difficult for me. I believe that people are on this earth for different reasons and exist in varying stages of personal and spiritual growth. Therefore, for me, many religions and belief systems serve a purpose. Im very tolerant of Christianity. Nothing Ive posted here implies different.
“One of the most common things that pagans do in these arguments is suddenly get all Christy and try to think: “What Would Jesus Do?”
Nothing hypocrital about it. I made the suggestion to you, using Christ as a reference. This doesnt mean I follow his teachings. Im simply discussing the subject using your own religious beliefs to make my point so you might better understand my meaning. There would be no point approaching it from my own perspective. You have no real understanding of my beliefs and are hostile to them anyway.
“…why are you even THINKING of haranguing them in the first place of their use of symbols and celebration of Christmas??? That’s the hypocrisy.”
“f anything, these discussions always originate with the atheists/pagans/wiccan etc starting out by heckling and hectoring those with the Christian symbols and beliefs and hounding them out of the public square or even merely public display . . ”
I dont recall haranguing anyone. *blank stare* Again, let me point out. Im not you therapist. Im sorry you are angry. Im not entirely sure your rage is directed towards the right person.
“It’s ok to ARGUE AGAINST somebody’s belief system, to debate it, to attempt to prove it is wrong, to show its weak points . . ”
No. Its really not up for debate. Sorry. Thats not what this article is about. Neither is it the reason I posted. I do not wish to debate my religious beliefs with you. I have no interest what-so-ever. If you came to me privately showing a sincere interest to understand I might discuss my views in a spirit of good will. I would never argue or debate or try to convert you. So youll hafta let that go.
” . . and then proceed to oppress others with even worse belief systems. Often done in the name of fuck-you hedonism, like I get to do WTF I want and the hell with you all . . ”
The core belief of Wicca is The Law of Return (Threefold Law or Rule of Three) Its Karma. What goes around comes around and for Wiccans it will come back onto you three times more powerful then what you sent out. I try to appreciate all living things in this world, including crazy cyber grandmas who lash out violently at anything outside their ability to grasp or comprehend. You throw around many stereotypes. But, you seem impossibly uneducated about my particular religion.
“Your trying to characterize yourself as “persecuted” or me as “intolerant” . . ”
Yep.
Also.
I am curious what you all think of my last post, regarding The Winter Veil celebration? That post conveys my position on this article. Was hoping for some feedback, regarding my observations.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 17th, 2005
Fallen, could you rise above your own perceptions and reactions for a minute and realize this is a *generic discussion* in which I’m answering the *generic points people always make in it* — it’s not “about” you.
One of the generic things that pagans/humanists/etc do in these debates is invoke Christ, in a game of “gotcha”. They try to deploy Christ for their own purposes, forgetting even obvious stories like Christ overturning the money-changers’ tables in the temple. It’s silly, but it’s revealing that they find Christ valuable enough to invoke at least when it suits their purposes.
Another stock-in-trade in these arguments (go back in the pages of the Herald and find literally hundreds on this subject) is to say “Oh, you don’t know me, you don’t know my beliefs, and you’ll never understand them, and they are too complex/special/arcane/inaccessible/secret for you to EVER get so shut up.” To which I can only say, um, enjoy! I don’t like complex hard-to-get inaccessible occult systems because they usually are about trying to gain control over, or influence people, for selfish ends. That’s why I complain about them LOL.
The Law of Return/karma concept is one of the most controlling and insidious concepts known to man — man-made to be sure. It says that *I* can decide what will come and fuck you over. I can *on my own, with no rule of law* make an interpretation that you will be fucked over, just because I think you did something bad to me. I’m sure W-HAT is invoking this specious reason now, or for that matter, telehub land owners — thinking that because they’ve been harmed, intentionally or not, then harm should/will come to LL. That’s the kind of stinkin’ thinkin’ that makes this culture. It’s pretty evil.
In this belief system, there is no redemption, no grace, no forgiveness of sin, no dignity of man or God for that matter. Instead, there is just the relentless, brutal, rolling on for ever of the Law of Three (or actually, a rather perverted notion of the ancient concept of Holy Affirming, Holy Denial, and Holy Reconciling).
Um, your silly lashing out about crazy cyber grandmas have come to the wrong address.
As to the Winter post, I agree that patrons of these games, unlike the little sects with amplified exposure on the Internet to vaunt their sectarian views, are for the most part either secularized or indifferent about some Western company’s old cultural symbols. They aren’t the ones complaining about some Father Frost kind of character who comes from the solar-calendar-based instead of lunar-calendar-based religions. They just want to beat the boss and get the gold or whatever.
TrannyPet Barmy
Dec 17th, 2005
Actually Prok, it’s a bit foolish on your part to be saying that any one wanting to cast dispertions on the Christian religion should not be allowed to refer to Jesus or God, to show that most Christians are hypocrites. However you term it, “refering to”, “deploying”, it’s a little hard to have any reasonable discussion of a matter without being able to refer to the points at hand and fundamental objects with in it ?
That’s kind of like gaffa taping the mouth of the person you are debating with. “You can argue the validity of Christianity with me, but, you are under no circumstance allowed to mention Jesus or God”. If you don’t like counter arguements to your following the Christian religion like “well you’re not acting very jesus like for a starters are you ?”, then dont be a hypocrite yourself in argueing things that you dont truely know or beleive, proven by your argueing anti-non-christian religious bullshit. The whole thing sounds to me like you couldnt really give a toss either way, but just like to argue.
No Prok, the concept of Karma is *NOT* how you described it. What you describe is a manipulated version, evidently manipulated into the shape of your arguement. Karma is not about controlling any one else at all Prok, it’s about what you can expect back towards you, based on what you put out. It’s nothing to do with being able to predict that bad will befall any one else but yourself, in return for the bad you have put out there. I find it a fairly obvious concept to the world though, lets face it, if you wrong some one else they are very likely to wrong you, thats the way it goes. Although, those you follow the Karma theory would just say, leave it be so as to avoid an every increasing intensity of aggression between the two.
The fact that you’re now stepping on this form of beleif just shows you what a Christian soul you really are. Always makes me laugh that most religions the world wide all preach peace and unity amongst one another regardless of race/religion etc …….. In theory the world should be a completely peaceful place ……….. but it isn’t, it’s full of wars based around religion, and why ? Simple, because there are extremist just like Prok, who want to take their religious beleifs to some extreme, want to imply their religion is the only true one, they want to be apart of some MASTER-RELIGION, and so have to stamp on all others, to the point of war and extermination. Unfortunately some of these people, Bush for example, are in power, and thats why the world is the war zone it is today.
Live and let live Prok. At the end of the day, we’re all worshipping the main man, how ever we go about doing it. So you do it your way, i’ll do mine, and others can do theirs. You whining on here trying to tell people it shouldn’t be their religion’s form of Christmas in some game is making you just as bad as the minorities saying it shouldn’t be the Christian’s Christmas.
Tranny’s Advice to The World : EXTERMINATE ALL EXTREMISTS – INCLUDING THE CHRISTIAN ONES
……….. oh and Prok, don’t bother with the hypocracy call, my previous post doesn’t argue for or do any justifying for either, it simply says that the game owners should have the right to call Christmas what ever they want to, and any one whining about it, based up on their religious denomination, should shut the fuck up – you included, with your pro-christian justification and fuck every other religion bullshit.
Fuck it, it’s Christmas, Duvali, what ever you want to call it, quit whining and enjoy it
TrannyPet Barmy
The REAL ONE
ps. BTW Prok – you do realise what a fascist jesus freak you really sound dont you ? Are you by chance from the deep south of the USA ? HALLELUJAH PRAISE THE LORD and all that ? You’re probably a member of that homophobic church of the idiots i’ve been reading about.
Fallen Hasp
Dec 17th, 2005
I apologize for misunderstanding Prok. I really did think you were addressing your arguement specifically towards me. A sign of my own arrogance to be sure.
I do not wish to debate my religion or the nature of evil and refuse to address any of your accusations. It would be an interesting discussion to be sure.
I respect your intellect Prok. My hope for you is that you are happy and at peace during this holiday season.
Fallen Hasp
Dec 17th, 2005
hehe <3 Tranny