by Alphaville Herald on 05/12/05 at 4:37 pm

All that’s left of a once busy SL Telehub

by Dow Jonas

In a move that is likely to cause profound economic and social changes to Second Life, Linden Lab announced last week in the official Linden forums that it will be enabling the platform for point-to-point teleporting (p2p) and removing telehubs, the main portals for avatar traffic to enter regions, in version 1.8, slated for December.

The fall of the currency value was instantaneous with the news. “The Linden is dropping because I start to cash out,” lamented SL’s premier land baroness. “Look at my account in the leaderboard.”

“Destroy my investment and Anshe make logical conclusion,” shrugged Chung.

[UPDATE: Herald sources who have spoken with several key Lindens say thecompany is considering the toggle-off solution discussed below. ]

A glance at the leader board showed Rathe Underthorn as the top land owner at 1,260,512 square meters, and Anshe merely at number 10, with 96,640. These figures are difficult to assess and are likely not complete. While Rathe reportedly does not group his land, and may have alts, Anshe has a number of groups and as well as known alts under whose accounts she keeps her considerable land holdings in both the mainland and private islands.

Another major business reacted to the news by arranging a $5,000 US cash-out, above the regular limit for the currency exchange.

Some observers noted that while Anshe may have begun cashing out her Lindens and converting them to dollars, and reducing prices on some of her mainland parcels – which are considerably less in number since she began selling off telehub and other space last summer – she is still bidding on new mainland sims and has added a number of new private islands to her considerable continental empire, known as Ansheland, in the north.

As for financial value, IGE Wheeling, the currency operator, was at the top, and Anshe had fallen to the number 3 slot with only LL$ 7,949,607 inworld.

Since news of the telehub removals and the switch to p2p, the LinDEX fell approximately 10 points, i.e. while Lindens were selling at the rate of 250 to the dollar; they now sell at 260 or more. The Linden had started to recover the value of the Linden against the U.S. dollar in a slow climb since the crash last summer with the demise of Gaming Open Market, an independent currency operation which was forced out of business when LL opened up its own interface to enable residents to buy and sell currency for the virtual world.

The p2p enhancement was greeted enthusiastically by many residents who have been looking for a way to travel instantly to their destinations without having to be trapped by slow-rezzing buildings and laggy telehub sims, or bounced around as they avoided security scripts.

But major land owners who had purchased expensive properties at or near telehubs were furious that their investments appeared to be rendered useless. Some buyers even used the term “bait and switch” to describe their experience on the Linden land auctions, where they paid more than $10/meter in many cases for land at the traffic-rich hubs. Prior to June, the auction parcels were labeled as telehub lands and the opening bid was always set much higher as a result; after June the bids opened at $1000 like other sims, but bidding goes to $1500 or much higher due to the deployment of the hubs.

Anshe Chung, SL’s premium land baroness, announced she had lost a reported US $25,000 by having her recently-purchased telehub sims devalued. The amount is some 10 percent of the estimated value of her holdings in SL, according to her recent statements to Fortune magazine.

Still others, such as Hiro Pendragon, organizer of SL’s first resident’s conference, expressed concern that when p2p is switched on, many people will be inundated with map-happy day-trippers clicking all around to see where they can go, landing in people’s bedrooms. He urged that toggles be added to the land menu to prevent sudden arrivals.

While Linden Lab at first discussed contemplating some compensation for telehub land owners, the idea seems to have been rejected under an onslaught of fierce criticism from forum commentators and other residents angry at what they view as an unfair advantage for land barons.

The Lindens called a town hall meeting to discuss the changes, but unlike other town halls, left open to any resident who could fly into the crowded sims where they are held, Jeska Linden created a list, the Telehub Discussion Group, and attendance at the meeting was by invitation-only. Yet most of the some 60 members were not telehub owners, but content-creators and others who have long sought to have telehubs removed from SL.

In a counter-action, the controversial rentals czar Prokofy Neva called an alternative meeting at his Gilded Cage Discussion Club, a home in Derwent next to Linden Village at which he holds weekly dissident salons.

Urged by some residents to attend the official town hall, several major land barons snubbed the Lindens and attended Neva’s meeting.

Said Chung, “This is one bad joke, let people put 25000 US$ in telehub land, then make the Basic account owner democracy vote and meeting,”

“So this worthless land that has no value to the public, so they say, is now something the public has to discuss?” commented Neva. “Nobody whines when they lose large amounts of cash, they just either bail from the game or find something else here to do. What they don’t do is go and decorate Linden meetings, though.”

Neva holds approximately one sim of telehub land. While Anshe has sold many telehub parcels, a visit to some 25 of SL’s 48 hubs found that Anshe still owned a good deal of the land at each location.

Barnesworth Anubis, an architect and furniture craftsman who recently bought land for his store near a telehub, first attended the dissident meeting to make his proposals, but then went in search of the Lindens meeting, whose announcement had not been widely seen, causing some confusion. “I suggested p2p teleportation for classified listings; it would make the classifieds the powerful tool LL wants it to be and make telehubs still valuable,” he noted.

Chung and others were looking for something far more robust in terms of compensation. “Change to P2P but also change to something that preserve value. Such as make telehub sims double prim sims.” In response to proposals by Neva and others to give telehub owners tier relief during the transition to p2p, the land baroness scoffed, “90 day tier free is nothing compared to the value loss.”

Chung explained that she is already looking at other virtual worlds to invest in and is slowing down in her investment in SL. “One friend of mine who owns telehub land is now playing Project Entropia. She LOVES it and she say she already spend 200$ there because is simply fun.” Chung said she had just opened up a currency exchange for IMVU credits, a new chat and socializing platform.

Other residents at the dissident meeting mourned the loss of the telehubs, which they said had given them a sense of community, kept them from forming too many unrelated sub-committees, and allowed new players to get a foot in the door of content creation.

“Hub owners are not ONLY affected. The hubs provide a stream of traffic past the work of new content creators, small businesses too. We keep looking at it like Anshe’s the only one getting hurt, people like her,” commented one business owner at a telehub.

Meanwhile, at the officially sponsored meeting, some irate customers managed to barge past Jeska’s filter to complain.

“I just want my money…then I ‘ll leave,” groused Bri Koolhaas, a medium-sized land owner who has run several malls and games near telehubs. He said one sim had sold at auction for U.S. $3,500 because it was designated as a telehub sim, traditionally recognized as having far more value.

Lindens moderating the strictly-controlled meeting ordered those who had come to complain about their losses or continue to debate the merits and problems of p2p were told to hold their comments, as the meeting was called only for discussing how the space would be used after the telehub removal.

Efforts to fly into the sim led to ban lines as you had to be a member of the group to participate. The Herald obtained a copy of the transcript from attendees.

Robin Linden, senior vice president at LL, asked residents, “What I’m wondering is if you think that resident groups in each telehub region would be interested in having the option of designing the public space in their region. Urban planners know that public gathering spaces help to strengthen a community. They can also act as hubs for commercial zoning.

Several residents pointed out that telehubs had already served that function, yet were now being removed rather hastily.

Pressing on, Robin Linden noted, “So what I’d love to see is each region creating their own public gathering space and finding ways to continue to bring people to that commercial area.”

Top SL designer Aimee Weber suggested that resident-created designs could help repurpose the old sites. “Especially if the hubs represent the culture of the local area. it could be a nice way to solidify an area’s identity.”

“Some areas have identity, but most hubs are just purely commercial – they have no regional feel or public meaning,” argued Lenin Camus.

“The concept of open public shared space seems rather utopian – I think it will just continue the trend of it being turned into malls,” commented Cristiano Midnight, a leading animations creator

Travis Lambert, manager of the Shelter, a meeting-place for newbies, asked, “What if Telehubs became a sort of “Business Directory” kiosk of local area businesses?.” Other residents such as Taeja Diaz expressed concerns that such moves would keep the areas filled with malls.

Hearing about such objections to business retaining management of the areas, Anshe Chung commented at the dissident meeting, “I think this message is clear: the people who work hard and invest get to fuck off.” Like other critics, she expressed concerned that a sense of geographical purpose would be removed from the world without having people fly from centralized hubs out to their destinations.

“Where is depth of world with P2P? SL just become some collection of scenes/chat. One random clutter of “parcels”.

Neva and others said they weren’t persuaded by Linden Lab’s official explanation for the sudden removal of the hubs, reversal assurances given in the Linden forums in August that they would not be taking the action – or at least not hastily and without compensation. Lindens have explained that newbies attempting to explore the world are confused by telehubs because they are unable to follow the red vector to their intended destination.

Asked if she would stop bidding on the auctions entirely, Chung replied, “Well, look how many auctions sold today. I am going slow down now. I must. I am forced to reevaluate the risk vs. the possible gain.”

Though barons like Anshe have repeated untold millions from charging high rents at telehub malls, and numerous content creators have sold their wares there at a considerable profit, some forum regulars remained skeptical.

“I think that the idea that telehubs are a beloved and important center of commerce and culture in SL are a complete fallacy perpetuated by those who were just trying to sell expensive land,” said Cristiano Midnight. “Most people flee them as fast as they can to go where they were. What is more compelling, I am not exactly sure – but it certainly is not the crap that is at telehubs now.”

Neva pointed out that having access to the market through telehubs created a more open market especially for new people, and he expressed concern about a closing of the market to all but the top designers with the most existing exposure. Rather than openly and freely browsing a lot of variety of telehubs, he said, newbies would be forced to rely on word-of-mouth or helpers and greeters who inevitably gave the landmarks of their friends’ stores.

At the official meeting, Crossing Tiger said, “For the hubs to be user created and Linden -owned, they will have to be grouped. I’m concerned as to how membership in such groups would be controlled without drama or excessive Linden involvement. I suggest using a single (or selection of choices) design that can be /customized/ but at least will be recognizable.”

Thinkers leader Gwyneth Llewelyn suggested, “1) have the ones who have invested more in the land around it to get together and make what they want with the land or alternative 2) make contests. It worked well in the past for other interesting builds.” “Regions” will become less important with p2p, she noted.

Although a number of residents at the official meeting as well as at the dissident gathering actually agreed that residents’ groups, especially made up of telehub land owners, should work together to repurpose the areas, Robin Linden made a cautious conclusion.

“I’m not sure I can summarize completely what’s been said, but it doesn’t sound like there’s a whole lot of support for resident groups building out the telehub land,” she said.

“So when P2P goes into effect, the Linden land will convert to plazas that will take the place of telehubs. They’ll still show up on the map.”


  1. Urizenus

    Dec 5th, 2005

    Apologies to Walker for dropping this on top of his EVE Online story, but it *is* interesting to see them in succession. I get the impression that these two game companies are moving in opposite directions, and at this point I guess I’d have to put my money on EVE.

  2. Walker Spaight

    Dec 5th, 2005

    No need to apologize, this is an important story. At least, it has me scratching my chin.

  3. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Dec 5th, 2005

    the end is near – bring out your dead

  4. Marsellus Wallace

    Dec 5th, 2005

    Nice story.. I can see how the value would fall for the land prices and then of course for the Lindens as people cashed out their investments. I like the idea of P2P teleportation, but I think this change affects a lot more than just the real estate market. We’ll see, seems like an interesting change. I’m sure someone, somewhere will take advantage of this at some point *winks at Uri in regards to a past in-game meeting* so I guess we will all see what happens.

    I agree with Neva though, generally the people leave the game when something big like this happens. However, I see just the big corporations leaving or at least scaling down their business which just opens up the market to others. Both things have pros and cons to consider.

    With this change though, land really is worth the same across the board depending on neighbors and terrain. The biggest selling point most use in the higher valued land is how close to the hub it is. I dunno, just my 2 cents which I am sure someone will talk crap about.

    Marsellus Wallace
    Real Estate Hustla

  5. antje

    Dec 5th, 2005

    “I get the impression that these two game companies are moving in opposite directions, and at this point I guess I’d have to put my money on EVE.”

    Comment by Urizenus

    So when does SLH change to EOH?

  6. Urizenus

    Dec 5th, 2005

    No way. If we change the name again we have to repaint the yacht and the jet, and buy all new stationary and cocktail napkins.

  7. Matthias

    Dec 5th, 2005

    Don’t forget the mint wrappers and re-engraving the crystal stemware, Uri ;-)

  8. Cocoanut Koala

    Dec 5th, 2005

    Well, I am a content creator who was at the meeting who didn’t agree with the way the telehubs have been done in.

    I never DID see why they couldn’t have both P2P and telehubs. Seems to me they lost a terrific opportunity to either create a new money sink (have each P2P cost, say $5, and let those of us who value thrift over time still use the hubs), or, as someone else suggested on the forums, have P2P restricted to premium members only, thus helping to convert more members to premium.

    I definitely don’t buy any story that “newbies are finding the telehubs confusing.” Did they do a market research on that, or what? There is absolutely ZERO confusing about flying to that red bar (which I hope will remain in some form). Particularly not when compared to the plethora of other things that really are confusing. Telehub travel is probably one of the SIMPLEST things you can do in SL.

    I’m not a land owner, but it seems to me (I could be wrong) that SL cuts off its nose to spite their face when they screw over the people who have bought sims next to telehubs. It would have been entirely reasonable to make those sms higher prim Sims, if possible, for instance, and no one would have been screwed.

    As for everyone in the sim getting together to decide what to do with the telehub land, well, good luck with that one! I figure that would be useful only for those sims already owned by one individual, or a cohesive group, really.

    In any case, it would also make more sense to limit the group to decide on what to do with the telehub to only those landowners within a certain radius.

    I wish I knew what sort of thinking went on behind this sudden decision, and reversal of previous statements. Cause it all seems very sudden and ill-advised.

    Sometimes I think they really kind of want to separate us, so as to get rid of all the human problems inherent in any community.

    Project Entropia, was it? I will check that out. I don’t know if anything that exists anywhere, though, will make me as happy as the (admittedly frustrating and bug-ridden) building tools in SL do at the present time. I do enjoy building a whole lot; something which Anshe probably isn’t as crazy about, so I’ll have to check it out for myself.


  9. Dow Jonas

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Geez, Uri, just when I hand-carved the initials “SLH” lovingly into the lean-to at the Herald’s duck blind in Duck…don’t change the name!

  10. Stellsy ( Fallen Hasp )

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Are you sure you wouldnt consider changing the name of the Herald Uri? Youve done it before. You could publish a big scandalous story about Second Life first and get banned for it. Leave with a bang and really stick it to them. That would be beautiful.

  11. Stubblehead

    Dec 6th, 2005

    shorter secondlife herald:bitch bitch bitch, whine whine whin
    shorter Urizenus: I wonder if I slam Second Life some more will Prococky Kneejerk let me be near his Fetid Interior Colon some more.
    shorter Cocoanut Koala: I’ll pretend that when I was noob I didn’t teleport to a place and wonder a)why I wasn’t there when I arrived and b)what that red glitch in the distance was.

    You guys are a complete joke. You know that the vast majority of Second Life is in favor of this change and yet you give them no voice in your story at all. Instead, because you long aligned yourself with the paranoiac Prococky Kneejerk, you write this piece of swill.

    Do the world a favor: Urizenus, go back to pretending that Noam Chomsky is relevant to anything other than the politics of East Timor.

  12. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Cocoanut, i wouldnt bother with Project Entropia, i did, and it was awful !!!!

    Firstly it was as slow as hell, with constant updates downloaded when ever is started it up, the user interface was apalling, it made no sense what so ever, and the communications it were terrible …………. i gave up after around about 2 hours of game time. It didn’t appear to be very configurable user-content wise either, which in my opinion is the biggest thing about SecondLife, the level to which the player is able to build their own custom content, i think this is what has kept most people interested in the place up until now.


    TrannyPet Barmy

  13. Carmine_Caligari

    Dec 6th, 2005

    shiiit let me hold on to some of that money

  14. Gwyneth Llewelyn

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Excellent article, Dow, and I also liked to see the comparison with EVE Online (something that I sadly won’t ever be able to enjoy, since it’s Windows-only).

    The issue is far from settled. There is going to be another meeting with the whole community team next Wednesday. And some people are preparing more in-world events to raise public conscience on what p2p tp means for the grid — both socially and economically.

    Since this is a “decision already done”, there is no way we can revert it. We can, however, reduce its impact, by having LL introduce some slight modifications on their original proposal — modifications that address privacy issues, that try to keep some sense of the grid layout, that make the so-called new “infohubs” actually useful and not simply “visual candy” in the virtual world, and so on. It looks like the atom bomb has fallen and now what we can try to do after it is clean up the mess, to the best of our abilities. Still, it’s better than dying from radiation poisoning while we wait for better days.

    (and btw there is no Thinker’s leader, hehe, it’s a rather loose and anarchic group whose original founder was Jinny Fonzarelli, still logging in once in a while)

  15. Bob the Tomato

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Removal of telehubs, the removal of massively overprice land, and a chance to get away from those monstrosities of construction that seem to be around all the telehubs is, in my opinion, a great bonus.

    Going directly to where you want to works fine in TSO so it should work in SL.

    So some people lost some rl money? Whoopie doo. If SL closed tomorrow, all their thousands would have been lost anyway, so anyone who invests and gambles in a virtual world has no reason to whine when their play is interrupted.

    Having said that, how many of the land barons actually play the game properly? Or do they just sit back and live off their scrounged earnings from those of us who have to buy land at the vastly inflated prices that they charge anyway?

    Most things in game I will make myself, or do without…. but you can’t do that with land, you have no choice except to buy it from one of these land barons.

    Maybe next after getting rid of the land barons LL will crack down on the money chairs and other artifically created ways to pretend to be popular, and let more people have FUN in the game. I went to a supposedly top club last night, 30 people or so in there…. in 10 minutes not one word was spoken. All afk and/or in camping chairs. Is that why it’s popular? Certainly wasn’t the atmosphere, the music, the hosting, the design, the theme, or anything else that I could see that would earn it its popularity. Now contrast that to my unique, own created, themed club which had a dwell of around 200 the last time I looked. Everything in it (apart from a few freebie scripts I used) is created by me. Yet it isn’t considered “as good” as this place with a huge dwell simply by the dumb way that dwell is calculated.

    Always makes me chuckle how the land barons demand to be heard and have things changed to their desires because they have so much money. I say crap, one person one vote, and if you don’t like it, don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.


  16. Trent

    Dec 6th, 2005

    I’m glad to hear that Anshe is begining to cash out. Yes there may be a bit of an economic bump in the road because of it, but SL will weather it and ulitmately will be better in the long run without a single person or two having LL by the balls financially.

  17. The Real whatever

    Dec 6th, 2005

    It’s about friggin time we get P2P!

    So what if Poor lil Anshe lost some money off a virtual game. She should feel damn lucky for the money she has made by being an Escort Land Baron anyways. Anyone who has made a penny off of SL should be thankful for it for I don’t feel bad for her in the least. We are all just tourists in her eyes. Well now we will be touring a little less often and be able to get where we need to go without landing in a lag stricken hub and flying to our destination. It will save a lot of people a lot of time to be able to do other things. I know my partner sure will appreciate the extra time for shopping and things that P2P will provide.

    In my opinion from what I have read and seen about Anshe is she is only interested in buying and selling/renting land. I doubt she could really care less about SL and the people in it, she’s only interested in the bottom line which is how much money she can make. Which is also why she bought Vicious Volos account, so she can make even more money off of things she never made. She will find out how much her greed will cost her in the end.

  18. Harlequin Salome

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Well, I personally like the p2p thing for a few reasons, which may be self-centered but I think there are many who would agree.
    First off, rezzing in a telehub like in Hanson, where I end up at whenever I want to get to my office in Isere, takes forever. There’s a 3 story mall/eyesore that is filled iwth crap that locks my system up. And also, it makes life more convenient for me. Will I stop wandering, though? Hell no.

    At least once or twice a week I do a little Zen meditation. I rez my ornithopter, put on what I call my Explorer’s Outift, point myself in a random direction, and fly, walk, and go via sub wherever the fancy strikes. I feel bad for those who own telehub land, and I can see their point, but I hate to tell you… the people with huge investments in telehub land and such are the minority.
    They’re the more vocal minority, or at least they get more coverage (WHo would have cared about the Ginko flareup if it was posted by Joe Schmo instead of Anshe Chung?), but they are not what most of us are.

    Hi. Allow me to introduce myself. I’m the average user. Sure I have a few things that make me different than the majority, such as leadership in big groups and stuff, but overall I’m the average premium user, who owns a little plot of land with an ugly house, wants to sell a few things out of a rented vendor space, makes 800 or so a week, and supplements income with contests at a club or two that I love frequenting, and both likes to explore but also likes the convenience that P2P will offer me.

    I’m sorry, but this is still, overall, a game. And I think p2p is the best thing to do for the majority of residents. if you want to be upset, or pull out investments, or whatever, then that’s your right, and as a free-market capitalist-type I can’t fault you for it.
    But I think that saying that this will cause the downfall of SL or that this will somehow shred the very economy of the game beyond repair is rediculous.

    Uri, Provky, normally I like your writings and ideas, but at this moment I think you’re way off the mark. You’re weighing whats good and bad for the game not by the majority of us users but by a tiny minority that has in the past, and will in the future (when they stop crying and get over *this* “disaster” too and get back to inflating our land prices), whine about anything and everything that affects their bottom dollar, as opposed to increasing usability and fun for us users.

    I’m not going to agree with Stubblehead, that you’re all just whining to whine, I understand where you’re coming from (and Noam Chompsky is always interesting =P), but I do think that before declaring doom and gloom, you should at least have the ethics to wait and watch the effect.

    The Tomato hit it right on the head, though. It will be better in the long run.

    At least more fun. And last I checked, thats what a game (Yes, its a game, no matter how highminded and protentous we all get about it) is all about.

  19. Fallen Hasp

    Dec 6th, 2005

    RED FLAG – You know a game is doomed to mass exodus when you read posts like the one Bob just made. Well Bob, looks like youre idealized utopia is about to become reality. The game is gonna look very different in a few months (see above image).

  20. The Real whatever

    Dec 6th, 2005

    P.S. I just had to post a laugh on the “SL Top Designer” title for SchmAimee Weber. You really have got to be kidding me lol. At least interview REAL Top Designers like Neph for her original designs that my girl loves or Jonquille or hell anyone who releases new items on a weekly basis.

    Give credit where it is really due instead of where it always goes. It’s time for a change for the better don’t you think?

  21. Cocoanut Koala

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Stubblehead, are you nuts? “Pretend” I understood telehubs?

    It’s hard to remember back that far, so I’m not exactly sure why I had no problem comprehending the telehub system and the red bar. Maybe it had something to do with what I read on orientation island. Maybe it’s just because I have an I.Q. higher than a turnip.

    TrannyPet, last night I did go check out that Project Entropia. I looked specifically on the “crafting” page and discovered that their idea of crafting is more along the lines of TSO crafting, and involves no creativity whatsoever.

    As soon as a game comes along that does allow crafting and creating like SL does (without limiting it to mainly clothes and vehicles then nickle-and-diming you to death for the thrill of submitting your item, like There), then I will be off to it in a flash, though I would probably stick around SL, too, depending on whether the new game were a lot better or not.


  22. whatevr

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Why don’t you all just shut the fuck up? Who cares?

    I am sure the Herald is being biased here, regardless. HMMM another one of my posts was not allowed on here.

    Impeach the Herald!

  23. whatevr

    Dec 6th, 2005

    Marellus Wallace
    Real Estate Hustla?

    How much land do you own?

    Smell Bullshit here?

    He works for the Herald it is a perfect match.

    Impeach the Herald!

  24. whatevr

    Dec 6th, 2005

    The picture of the house is really where Urianus lives.

    Impeach the Herald!

  25. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 6th, 2005

    I’ll see you in SL-ALT then Cocoa ? or what ever i give it as a production name after getting something up and running any way ;)


    TrannyPet Barmy
    The Real One

  26. Cocoanut Koala

    Dec 6th, 2005

    You’re making an SL like game? I would love to see it!


  27. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 7th, 2005

    early days yet Coco, but, here’s a screen shot of it at present :-


    i’m working on the windowing/menuing system for it at the moment, which should be done this week, then i can get down to the business of object building, and networking.

    If things continue to progress at the rate they have since last week, i’ll put the project site up soon, seperate from SecondCentral, where i’ll be able to put work in progress up for download so folks can check it out. More news on that nearer the time though.


    TrannyPet Barmy

  28. Wyvern Sieyes

    Dec 7th, 2005

    is everyone forgeting what this game was made for???

    its about community not money.
    the money side is just a bonus.

    since i have been playing i have made friends with ppl all over the RL world, most of these i met at telehubs.

    without telehubs i would still be lost wondering what the hell to do.

    i can see both side of this argument.

    how about making Landmarks P2P thus making it quick to get home or to a particular shop. i my self have got fed up of taking ages to get somewhere over and over again.

    this way you can also keep the telehubs which ppl will have to go through to get to the place first time round.

    i got to admit going via telehubs has made me see more of SL than i would normanly have done.

    in conclusion..

    keep the telehubs as they are a vital part of SL comunity and ppl will go through them to get to the place they want first time round.

    then when the person gets to there destination give them the choice of creating a P2P landmark.

    this solution keeps the tele hubs but give the ppl the choice of P2P if they want to.

    i hope you understand what i just wrote. as im not very good at explaing my own ideas in words.

    everyone needs to find middle ground and not demand there way is the right way. Looked what happened in RL when ppl tryed to get there own way.

  29. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 7th, 2005

    Good plan Wyvern, if i remember rightly ActiveWorlds used a similar model, ie; once you had been some place, you could landmark it, then be able to teleport straight to it. But outside of that, you’d be teleported to a central point in any world when you first went there.

    I think you’re ‘community’ point is extremely valid to, since part of the reason people use online worlds, is that they seek to communicate with others or sell to others, if not, then the online thing is a bit pointless, you could run an empty world locally with no need for network connectivity. So from my point of view, in wanting to promote user retention in SLALT, i’ll be using the model you mention, simply because it almost guarentees that when newbies arrive they will at least have some fellow avatars near by to keep them company or show them the ropes otherwise if new users just come into a world, but cant see any one or find any one else, the retention level is going to severely drop.

    Thanks for the ideas Wyvern

    TrannyPet Barmy

    ps. Maresellus – i’m sure SecondLife will now copy me ;)

  30. TrannyPet Barmy

    Dec 7th, 2005

    btw, is that really your house in the picture Uri ?

    TrannyPet Barmy
    The REAL One

  31. Bob the Tomato

    Dec 8th, 2005

    Well… Fallen Hasp…. there’s a whole shedload of ‘unclaimed land’ all over SL, it’s far too spread out.

    Why? Because there are so many damn awful builds that people buy land in the middle of nowhere to get a clear view… then some moron like the “Impeach Bush” guy comes along.

    If it wasn’t for these huge awful malls and clubs right next to telehubs, and the vastly inflated prices that the land barons charge, more people would be able to build what they wanted where they wanted instead of being forced out to wherever they have to.

    People won’t buy land because the barons overcharge …. but whenever a new sim is opened, they buy it all up before anyone else gets a chance to.

    I say that there should be a system like in TSO – you buy the land based on its location direct from LL instead of from land barons, and the more ‘desireable’ (in TSO it’s waterside and private islands) the land the more the cost, with a bit of factoring in by its adjoining property being vacant or not.

    The minority are affecting the enjoyment of the majority. It’s about time to stop it, and reclaim the game for the players. Making L$ worth real cash was, IMHO, a dreadful idea, because thats’ the real source of all these problems, land extortion, Bush signs, etc.


  32. Fallen Hasp

    Dec 8th, 2005

    Just for the record Bob, I probably dont know what im talkin about. I want to Second Life end for vindictive reasons. I gleefully applaud everytime i hear a story about impending doom for that game. Its immature and Im allowing myself to behave this way only because i think no one takes me seriously. But since youre humoring me :)

    Its unappealing to see a landscape overrun with huge unsightly billboards, lagging particle effects etc . Everyone is fed up with land barons monopoly. Here is the problem. Havin an elitest attitude isnt practical in a game economy. When you start talkin about showing the door to all these unsavory types if they arent happy with changes, I dont know what to think. These people do contribute economically to the game. I used to chuckle when id hear “old timers” and betas complain about the growth. But just as in RL its a trade off.

    “Now contrast that to my unique, own created, themed club which had a dwell of around 200 the last time I looked. Everything in it (apart from a few freebie scripts I used) is created by me. Yet it isn’t considered “as good” as this place with a huge dwell simply by the dumb way that dwell is calculated.”

    Youre right on all accounts. But, the reason you can pull a dwell of 200 is because the game thrives with a bloated population and new residents. I cant imagine how showing people the door is gonna improve your dwell.

    Im not speaking with any authority what-so-ever. I would never be so arrogant to assume I understand all the dynamics involved. Is it your desire to see the population decrease? Maybe you’d prefer going back in time, when there was a small group and “everyone was like family”. Many of the people who came to Second Life and ruined it with their ungodly builds came from other games. TSO . . There.com I could go on and on. Have you logged into any of those games recently? Of course not. No one does. I can tell you what it looks like to go back. * see above image* They are all but barren. Youll see a small group of hold outs still logging in everyday, isolated in their small worlds where they never have to concern themselves with obtrusive particles or land barons.

    Im hard pressed for an answer. There are individuals in Second Life and on these forums who are by far more educated and capable to problem solve. Your own ideas seem well thought out and worth consideration. But i know instinctively what doesnt read right. Alienating an entire group of people who contribute a great deal to the economy doesnt make sense to me.

  33. Kiss

    Dec 8th, 2005

    . . . . . . . . . . . . Thank god I’m playing Eve instead of Idon’tknowafuckingthingabouteconomics online.

  34. antje

    Dec 8th, 2005

    “I used to chuckle when id hear “old timers” and betas complain about the growth.”


    I am on those forums and several related blogs everyday, and I have not heard a single “old-timer” say this.

    You are spinning what they are saying 180 degrees.

    How about some quotes?

  35. Raven Page

    Dec 8th, 2005

    Change is good. Keeps people on their toes and brings up the creativity level. These changes might open the door to new people and more interest.

    I don’t believe for one minute that this change is going to be the end of SL. Everytime there is some kind of change with how the game works. Someone always finds new ways to work the system. Just going to wait and see how all the pieces fall.

    I’ve been wondering why we couldn’t just have P2P from the time I first started playing SL. A good portion of the telehubs are horrible looking, lagging, or just plain trashy.

    Gawd forbid someone might have to really work at promoting their stores and what not. I don’t own land at this time. I work with a group and co-own a small mall. I work my behind off to bring new products to the community and feel that my future in game is what I choose to make it.

    Raven Page is my game name, I stand by what I say and have no reason to put some alias. As I see so often with the comments being made here at SLH.

    People come and people go. They make their own choices. So perhaps the people with the monopoly might have to change their game strategies some. Such is life. We all have to adjust to change.

    I also played TSO for 4 yrs. Till *I* chose to move on. I like SL and plan on doing what I can to make the communities I do business with or visit better if I can. I think if a lot of people would try to think of the overall instead of the few… things might actually be more enjoyable for everyone.

    There is a way too much whining in the world. Business is business. There is always going to be competition. That is just the way of the world. If you can’t handle the competition then perhaps SL is not for you. Or perhaps you need to go a different direction in SL.

    I think we should all be able to go where we want to go in SL without being forced to go to some hood that we didn’t choose to go to. So personally, I’m pleased at this change. It might be a pain for some to get used to or to rework their game strategies, but as I said earlier … such is life.

    I’m sure the land barrons will figure something out or if they choose to go move on that is their perogitive and good luck to them.

    Just my humble opinion. We all have them.

  36. Fallen Hasp

    Dec 9th, 2005

    I dont believe any one thing will be the downfall of Second Life. It will naturally die out like all games do, replaced with newer ones. Ive been gaming long enough to know that. It will be a series of small inconveniences – server attacks, game changes like p2p where people lose money again and again, ghosting textures, lag, lack of ToS enforcement coupled with new enticing games that will pull people out of Second Life. I respect your opinions and wish you luck, happiness and prosperity in Second Life.

    Change is good.
    I look forward to investing my time, talent or money into a different game.

  37. blaze

    Dec 9th, 2005

    Dude, write about what you understand.

    Firstly, Anshee has never shown up in the land owner list because it’s all under dreamland.

    Secondly, she is still bidding up the auctions and recently added more sims to dreamland.

    Third, her cash reserves on the leaderboard have gone UP and not down.

    You have been manipulated.

  38. Cocoanut Koala

    Dec 9th, 2005

    The land barons provide a service. Just like real estate people in real life. There’s nothing inherently scuzzy about this business, and no one expects them to do it as a charity.

    When the day comes when you want to sell your land quickly, and not just abandon it to the Lindens, you will be happy that there are land barons, major and minor, who will be take it off your hands and onto their own tier.

    I had some 512 land that was doing NOTHING. Not only that, there were Impeach Bush signs went up next to it. I priced it somewhat below value, and – thank God – a land baron type swooped along and purchased that piece of useless rock.


  39. Dow Jonas

    Dec 9th, 2005

    blaze, we’re well aware that a good portion of Anshe’s land as private islands isn’t going to show up. She has some 100 of them, we’re estimating.

    But journalists have to go by the public record at least in part. The public record notes that Anshe has fallen down the leader boards, and that she is showing less land than previously, and less cash than others. But as we pointed out, “These figures are difficult to access and likely not complete.”

    At press time, her reserves were less than others, i.e. IGE Wheeling, this was merely reported. Of course they can fluctuate.

    It seems highly likely that the fall in the Linden value by more than 10 points is due to the telehub/p2p notice, coupled with holiday RL gift shopping needs, etc.

    Anshe herself has indicated that she is “slowing down”. There are indeed other new barons bidding on and taking sims in the northern continent. It’s difficult to know now in the absence of actual data who really owns more land now, but it seems safe to say that 1) Anshe has considerably reduced her presence at telehubs, selling off half or more of her land at many hubs to others; 2) she has let a number of auctions go by, and you can even see she is reneging on some auctions as she has labeled some newly-won sims as “return, mistaken bid”; 3) she has lowered her prices on some areas; 4) others are picking up the slack where she used to be on the mainland, i.e. Rathe Underthorn.

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