No Pain no Fun?
by Alphaville Herald on 21/01/06 at 1:51 pm
In an interesting recent post on Terra Nova, Bonnie Ruberg raises the question of the value and authenticity of BDSM scenes in a virtual space where, strictly speaking, no pain or blood or even serious power exchange are possible. Along the way she sites that classic Alphaville Herald interview with Anonymous on the BDSM scene back in Rose Thorn Gardens on TSO.
The discussion is interesting, and even awoke Dyerbrook/Prokofy Neva from his dogmatic slumbers to muse about the evils of BDSM instead of the FIC. It was just like old times.
Prokofy Neva
Jan 22nd, 2006
What is dogmatism, Uri? Why would people who subscribe to a rigid, hierarchical ideology like Gorean, which involves enslaving women, using coercion, and celebrating pain and violence be..um…creative and open-ended and open-minded, i.e. “not dogmatic”? How come the word “dogmatic” is applied to me, with the “dogma” of liberalism and civil rights, whereas they get to escape this brand?
How is it that I, who merely points out that BDSM isn’t really a good or viable ideology to promote in the public space, or to use to make a free and open society at large (while providing for the freedom of anybody to do WTF they want on their private property), get to be the “dogmatic” one?
Huh? I really think you need to defend stuff like that. As you know from some of those voluminous multi-paged debates of the past, the BDSM gang will stop at nothing to defend their ethos of coercion, enslavement, and violence, not only on the grounds of consent, or “I get to do WTF I want on my property,” (grounds to which we can agree), they have ideological prescriptions that go with this, in which they endeavour to show things like “more endorphins are released from inflicting pain that the normal pleasure route so in fact our form of pain is the greater pleasure” or “our exchange of power between dom and sub is actually a more deep, lasting, intimate and secure relationship than many vanilla-type relationships” etc. etc. In other words, it’s not just an ideology of *choice* — which no one could impugn if they were good liberals — it’s an ideology of *better*.
In fact, precisely because it *is* an ideology of *better* that the eggheads at Terra Nova, always eager to be seen as cutting and bleeding edge, embrance and mainstreamize BDSM to show off their tolerance and their titillating and adventuresome exploration of the New.
Well, baloney. I don’t think BDSM is better. I don’t think it’s fun to undo the struggles of the last centuries to end slavery, end inequality between men and women, and so on. I think equality between men and women or any gender mix of partners is better, that the old forms of “vanilla” pleasure are better because they don’t involve risk and damage and harm, and that the forms of relationship involved with respect, and not “exchange of power” can be as deep and as intimate as any. I don’t see why I have to create the shadow of risk and pain and death around a relationship to appreciate its light.
In all those voluminous arguments, I only found one person, on another website, who admitted that you know, while she was into BDSM and it was her choice, she wouldn’t exactly recommend it for the civilization at large, especially teenagers.
I’m happy to be a good liberal and encourage that everyone should have the highest protections of their right to do WTF they want on their own property, in the privacy of their home. When they extend into the public space, i.e. parading the dress, lifestyle, lingo, I also think they should be extended basic courtesy or non-discrimination, i.e. not blocked from the free flow of goods and services of any free society, simply tolerated as you would tolerate any choice of lifestyle, opinion, belief, etc.
But when they begin to aggressively put out a concept that their ideology is *better* and the recipe for a new world and a new civilization that is going to marginalize *me* and my “old-fashioned” ideas of equality and freedom, that’s when I push back. I don’t see why I have to promote a philosophy of tolerance and freedom, making space for them, with them even hounding me with politically-correct nostrums, but then they get to promote a philosophy of closedness, hierarchy and hatred of people who so much as question the validity of their lifestyle.
You focus so much on the fun side of BDSM, Uri, that you never look at these deeper philosophical issues.
TrannyPet Barmy
Jan 22nd, 2006
Prokofy, first of all, quit whining.
Second, of all, you wouldn’t know philosophical arguement if it jumped up and stabbed you in your face, and this is the second time i think i’ve seen you claim such, quit, it’s an insult to my education !!! I really don’t see how some one whining on that they disagree with someone else’s lifestyle, and making all sorts of incorrect claim is in any way philosophical Prok. Philosophy is about logical/reasoned proof, not opinion.
Now, lets address what you have to say about BDSM. I notice you start of ranting about Gorean, which, is not BDSM, Gorean is following a lifestyle that revolves around a series of books known as Gor and is very much an online thing(very few follow this in real life). Nice try at bundling them all in togethor to create a point that doesn’t exist though Prok
BDSM, is not a following of anything other than the beleif that there are certain individuals who are dominant and certain others are submissive and *willing* to *consensually* take pain and endure other acts. Sure some of those acts may be perceived by others as abusive, simply because they dont feel that they would enjoy the same, but i think you’d agree it’s little on the narrow minded side to be judging that every one else’s desires and dislikes should be the same as your own.
Next, i see you’ve made 2 quotes in your post relating to what BDSMers have said, i notice you don’t cite a reference to where you have found these, are they just quotes you’ve made up to create an arguement in the format you wish ? I’ve been into the BDSM thing for many years now, and nobody i know is about BDSM being *better* than vanilla, infact the common saying amongst those that i’ve met is “different strokes for different folks”. Perhaps you should poke your head outside of the game world some time, instead of listening to a minute portion of the BDSM community that also have a presence in game land(if thats where you’ve got this idea of BDSM prescribing *better*).
I love the way you start going on about “the struggles of the last centuries to end slavery, end inequality between men and women”, are you insane ? Look up the definition of ‘slave’ and then compare that to what a ‘BDSM slave’ really is. Completely different concept, for starters a true slave can’t walk away from a relationship, he/she is owned, belongs to, legally, their Master/Mistress. Whereas, by comparison, a ‘BDSM slave’ can of course walk away from their Master/Mistress at any time they please, they are only ‘enslaved’ so long as their will is there to continue that ‘enslavement’. You try to make BDSM all sound so much like it’s done against some one’s will – thats ILLEGAL Prokofy, and BDSM is nothing about that.
Next i notice you try the “she wouldn’t exactly recommend it for the civilization at large, especially teenagers.” – the ‘trying to corrupt the youth’ arguement. Lovely. I think you’ll actually find laws that surround and govern acts that may fall into the BDSM category, just as you would for underage sex, or child abuse, and just as any peedo would be dealt with by the law for abusing a child, so would any BDSMer. Seems to me that bringing the child arguement into it is just another display of creating an point that doesn’t exist on your part.
“always eager to be seen as cutting and bleeding edge, embrance and mainstreamize BDSM to show off their tolerance and their titillating” – AS eager as you are to turn something into something it isn’t ? Showing off, as oppossed to simply discussing their experience Prok ? Are you sure ?
Now you’ve harped on about violence all the way through your post. I’d kind of like to know where the violence is, in BDSM. Again i suggest you look up the definition of ‘violence’, you’ll find it involves acts of ‘force’ and ‘abuse’. Although i can’t speak for the Gorian lifestyle, i would like to ask you exactly how you feel anything in BDSM can be an act of violence, when no force is involved, the submissive is not only freely accepting, but also *wanting* to have pain inflicted, in order to acheive an endorphin rush, or simply because they enjoy the position. How can it be either violent, forceful or abusive, when the submissive is a submissive because he/she *desires* to be so. Of course whilst i understand this concept can be tricky to get to terms with for some one outside looking in, i would expect a little more on the tolerance/acceptance side from some one who claims :-
“I’m happy to be a good liberal and encourage that everyone should have the highest protections of their right to do WTF they want on their own property, in the privacy of their home. When they extend into the public space, i.e. parading the dress, lifestyle, lingo, I also think they should be extended basic courtesy or non-discrimination,”
To finish this off Prokofy, i think you need to do a little research on the subject before you continue spouting off about what you obviously have little or no dealing with or knowledge of. If you have already, then i’m sure, contrary to all the rubbish you’ve just spouted in your post, you’ll find that on 95% of any BDSM reference material/sites there will be a motto that pretty much says it all, contrary to the rubbish you’ve ranted, “Safe, Sane & Consensual”.
All very well to disagree with what some one else says or beleives Prok, but it really does show your narrow minded dogmatism when you go putting words into the other’s mouths simply to look as if you have some point and reasoning behind what you say !!!
TrannyPet Barmy
The REAL ONE
Avah (Fallen Hasp)
Jan 22nd, 2006
“But when they begin to aggressively put out a concept that their ideology is *better* and the recipe for a new world and a new civilization that is going to marginalize *me* and my “old-fashioned” ideas of equality and freedom, that’s when I push back. I don’t see why I have to promote a philosophy of tolerance and freedom, making space for them, with them even hounding me with politically-correct nostrums, but then they get to promote a philosophy of closedness, hierarchy and hatred of people who so much as question the validity of their lifestyle.”
How exactly would you expect one to respond after the type of seething remarks you make about their lifestyles, very similiar I imagine to the one you just posted above? Would you expect applause? Or maybe youd like them to apologize for existing in the same world you do and breathing the same air. Sometimes, the reactions you get from people are in direct relation to your own tone. How you love to generalize. Maybe its easier for you to create evil groups to rage against than trying to relate to individual human beings. I dont like it when you talk about the inherent evil of particular groups or lifestyles (or really just anyone with a different lifestyle that you dont understand or approve of.) You make sure everyone knows you dont approve and than act offended when they mirror your attitude and tone, throwing it right back in your face. You cant create a perfect world where everything is just the way you want it and nothing alien ever gets in. Life is messy and we are all interconnected. If you learned to be more flexible and actually allow for others different than yourself like you claim then youd have very little to rage against. You could use all that extra time to explore a new hobby. Take a belly dancing or pottery class. Secure in the absolute knowledge that everything is alright, the sky isnt falling and no one wants to see you in latex anyway.
Prokofy Neva
Jan 23rd, 2006
I refer you all to the back pages of the Herald where all of this was already endlessly debated and all the points already made. Avah, if someone puts out a lifestyle that is offensive to many (and it is indeed, just look at the reaction at the recent town hall), if someone begins to promote it vigorously in the public space, they’ll just have to expect some pushback and not keep pleading “tolerance from liberals”. Sorry, but that comes with the territory in a free society.
I could take Tranny’s arguments apart bit by bit, but it all boils down to responding to this comment:
“To finish this off Prokofy, i think you need to do a little research on the subject before you continue spouting off about what you obviously have little or no dealing with or knowledge of.”
In other words, we are endlessly in the wrong, we can never learn ENOUGH about BDSM, GOR, and all its many varied variations. We can never *get it right* and we must always be *out of step, uninformed, uneducated.* The Gor, the BDSM, the Weekend Whipper, they are always superior, always knowledgeable, always briefed up, and always condescending because we cnan *never know enough*. Deep within their conviction is that they’ll always be able to move the goalposts but that you’ll also see all, know all, and then be convinced. But of course, you’re never convinced that it’s right to inflict pain on another human being, whatever the specious and twisted reasoning to arrive at that ‘re-evaluation of values’.
No, the BDSM folks like to have everybody whipped : ) Not surprising! But I can only repeat: no sale. And I’m also not willing to have another 100 pages of the Herald go into this argumentation, when you’re essentially dealing with a problem of a few mainstream intellectuals trying to take on a very entrenched, narrow-minded, cultic minority in a game who will constantly try to invoke universal values like “you should tolerate me” or “you should find out more about my beliefs they are endlessly complicated” — merely to turn the entire belief system on its ear by saying good is bad and bad is good.
Have fun trying to argue this stuff at Congressional Hearings, especially with this Congress *shrugs*. I can’t wait to see the media pick up the fact that one of the many vaunted “educational projects” out of a university, the sort of thing greatly feted in SL now, is actually a study of BDSM. Go over and read the commentary on Terra Nova using Uri’s link in this article.
Avah (Fallen Hasp)
Jan 23rd, 2006
“if someone begins to promote it vigorously in the public space, they’ll just have to expect some pushback and not keep pleading “tolerance from liberals” ‘
Define vigorous promotion please. Is public BDSM rp what has you bent? For instance, slaves kneeling in public for their masters or addressing their partners publically as “Master” ? That type of thing? Do you feel its being forced onto you in pg areas? I can understand why that would upset you and others. Or is there something else going on. Your posts are confusing because you rage against the lifestyle but youre not saying specifically what you are objecting to. How it is affecting you personally.
TrannyPet Barmy
Jan 23rd, 2006
Prok
if you could take my arguement to bits, you would, and we all know this
The fact that you don’t means in your case that you can’t.
You quote me well, and my quote still stands if you ask me, since not only have you still yet to cite your reference quotes, the only thing close to any form of source of reference material you mention are yet again gaming related. Like i said, you’d do good to do some proper research, real world related, and find out what real BDSMers are about, and then talk with some knowledge instead of simply saying “oh you know it all, they are all know so much better” when quite obviously, as far as BDSM goes, compared to you, THEY DO !
As far as all the idiotic whining your spouting about “always right” etc etc ….. well i’m afraid in this case Prok you couldn’t be further from the truth of BDSM with the ideas you’ve put forward. Infact you’ve pretty much demonstrated to all just how clueless you are in this field.
I see your arguement is now twisting away from ‘violence’ and more towards “Who says it’s not right to inflict pain on another human being”, and you appear to have dropped the ‘enslavement’ rubbish completely (i wonder why ? Perhaps i ripped *your* post to pieces after all
) Well Prok, now lets see, i happen to enjoy moderate amounts of what you would call ‘pain’, and no i’m not bragging about it, i’m simply responding to some point you are trying to make here over “right” and wrong. I think you’ll find it’s basically down to personal preference, as i said previously, “different strokes for different folks”, and if i happen to enjoy a certain level of what you would class as pain, well, who are you to say it’s wrong for me to *allow* some one else to inflict that ‘pain’ upon me ? Saying you disagree, is one thing, however, claiming universal moralistic truths …………… Do you really beleive that you are God, and that you are the all powerful definer of all things right and wrong ???
“No, the BDSM folks like to have everybody whipped” – no Prok, however they do like to put biggots like yourself straight over the the age old idiocies you seem to spout.
‘who will constantly try to invoke universal values like “you should tolerate me”‘ – Oh so you really are the discriminating dogmatic biggot that you claim not to be then ? You feel that the real BDSM community really shouldn’t be tolerated, as any other legal pleasure is(sexually related or otherwise) ? Again, i say to you, it’s a little arrogant on your part to be saying that everybody else on the planet should adhere to what *you* feel is correct and acceptable. I don’t hear 1000s of BDSMers shouting out “vanilla is wrong, nobody should tolerate vanilla sex, its disgusting”, no i hear them saying “i prefer BDSM, it does it for me, each to their own though”, so why is it you cant tolerate some one else’s preference ? I bet you’re a gay basher to arent you ?
“Go over and read the commentary on Terra Nova using Uri’s link in this article. ” – sure people, do that, then when you’re done, have a look around the net for some articles written by real life BDSMers, and compare. I’m sure Prok would love for you to look no further than the sole site it takes offence at bases it’s complete arguement around. Have a look at some sites that give the REAL facts of BDSM, you’ll see quite clearly that Prok is full of it.
Again like i said in the beginning Prok, you quite obviously are clueless in all that you’ve said here, for starters muddling Gor in with BDSM, then all the ‘violence’ rubbish, followed by further accusations of ‘enslavement’ as if its for real. I’m only glad i’ve been here to spot your narrow mindedness and attempts at slurring a lifestyle *enjoyed* by millions, both Dominant and submissive, and ensure that people are not fooled by your manipulative excuse of an arguement.
TrannyPet Barmy
The REAL ONE
ps. just wondering here, did you vote for Bush Prok ?
hummie
Jan 23rd, 2006
only a person who has not lived through virtual D/s can say that real “scene” is not possible in SL. such a statement completely ignores the psychological reality of whatever it is that is going on between slave or sub and Master or Mistress. i find
myself at times feeling that there is a certain amount of willful naivete on the part of SL boosters who, i think, ignore the psychological cost of the game for most
inexperienced gamers.
it is, sadly, completely and utterly possible to have a D/s
relationship in SL, since D/s is primarily a system of PSYCHOLOGICAL and EMOTIONAL power exchange, not limited by anybody’s presence at any particular location in meatspace –
so saying that you can’t have a real scene in SL because you can’t bleed, well, that’s plain old horseshit. any fool can go to any of the BDSM sims, any gorean sim almost, and in the library pick up instruction note cards about how to “dom” somebody, and some people think that reading six notecards or a half dozen gor novels is all it takes to be a Dom/me. this is just idiotic. if you read books like “Screw the Roses, SEnd me the THorns”, or SM 101, or any other authoritative book written by experienced Dom/mes and bottoms, you’ll find out that most responsible people in that lifestyle expect people to proceed with extreme caution when initiating relationships of this sort. this hardly ever happens in SL, where mostly people meet, talk for a while, and then take on the role. The D/s relationship is difficult, challenging, requires trust, patience, and a certain amount of emotional strength on both sides, because the nature of the relationship is such that all kinds of emotional issues will surface on both sides as the relationship progresses — hence the terms “backlash” and “top drop”.
however, as usual, respect for human EMOTIONAL reality does not seem to be a big part of the SL charter: irresponsible and ignorant Dom/mes are everywhere present in SL, where the title of Master/Mistress or Dom/me is worn irresponsibly and without honor like some kind of really strange psychological fashion statement. Many naive but curious virtual slave/sub persons are hurt and damaged by these posers, and there exist at present at least three, and possibly more, organizations in SL whose entire charter and work is to care for abused bottoms. A person trusting an irresponsible, unethical, or un-necessarily brutal Dom/me is a person who is asking for a major mental and emotional headfuck, and in SL, unless they are extremely fortunate, they are more likely to get the headfuck than they are to not get the headfuck. The D/s headfuck is not an easy headfuck to recover from.
A responsible Dom/me loves His/Her sub/slave. A responsible Dom/me is going to be there for His/Her sub/slave, guide her/him, give of His/Her time to her/him. A responsible Dom/me puts His/Her girl/boy before Himself/Herself. A responsible Dom/me will not take on more girls/boys than He/She can responsibly deal with just because a long chain looks good. D/s is NOT a numbers game.
The possible consequences, intended and unintended, from irresponsible “fashion”
D/s in SL are potentially so serious for the slave/sub that i fully expect that someday
there will be an account, in the space, of a real person slave/sub suicide in RL based upon SL D/s abuse. i am completely serious when i say this — it is only a matter of time before such a thing happens.
toy
Jan 23rd, 2006
someone wake me when this is all over, its simply a repeat of Dyers posts 2 years ago…. we are expected to goosestep to Dyers ideals, no one else can possibly be right… SOS… Dyer(Porky) will live in his/her own dream world and never has new thoughts, tis a truely sad situation and perhaps deserves pity.
Brace
Jan 24th, 2006
btw Gor goes under the heading of BDSM however distasteful that might be to some.
Where do you think John Norman got his ideas from in the first place? Gor is not some separate “other” springing free and clear from the mind of one author in the 60′s.
BDSM is an abbreviation of:
Bondage(BD)
Bondage & Discipline (B&D)
Domination & submission (D&S, DS, D/S)
Sadism & Masochism (or Sadomasochism) (S&M, SM)
What might work for you personally in one area might not be someone else’s cup of tea – yet you are all practicing BDSM.
D/s on the whole nowadays refers to a loving couple of whatever configuration – and in rarer cases Polyamorists – most likely found in threes.
When you get into the “chains of submissives” thing you start stepping out of that arena into other areas of BDSM
M/s perhaps and Gor maybe.
I have to agree with hummie – but its not just SL – try AW or any other online venue that dabbles in BDSM. I used to be one of those people trying to help put back together emotionally shattered and damaged subs.
Since I don’t have a masters degree in psychology – aside from telling folks to log out and seek local help RL – there’s not much else you can do to effectively help the person behind the av.
Prokofy Neva
Jan 24th, 2006
Interesting account, hummie. I had seen one of those societies listed on people’s profiles. Well, I guess we are making progress here. A year ago or so when we had these debates, BDSM could do no wrong, and the BDSMers were circling the wagons and absolutely unwilling to criticize itself or any version of itself. You’d get BDSM Lite that really didn’t care for Gor and its wierd cultic qualities, but would root for it nonetheless against anyone daring to question its beliefs and practices, constantly waving the flag of “consent among adults,” though we had actual experience in front of our noses of people harmed, and leaving these awful sorts of cults and scenes.
So now you’re honestly giving us an account of the headfuckers, that those of us outside of this system could already see loud and clear (which is why we criticized it and became concerned with it), but it’s actually merely a variation of the “you are endlessly in the wrong” argumentation that all the BDSM apologists always engage in– that is, I can never, ever understand *enough* about BDSM, never grok all its nuances *enough,* never be schooled and briefed *enough* and therefore I’ll *always be in the wrong* compared to the presumably more knowledgeable, condescending dom type who is always there to *set me straight* and *keep me off balance*. This is just an age-old cultic trick *shrugs*.
So in this variation, it’s always me in the wrong, of course, as outside BDSM, but now you’re willing to add to that category of “those in the wrong” one more sub-category, and that is these feebs and choads and Weekend Whippers who are “BDSM tourists” and “don’t get it” and “haven’t studied enough” and are too mass in taste, too gross, to ignorant, to practice BDSM “what we like to call the right way”. Etc.
So once again the problem isn’t the system itself, it’s just those who “got it wrong”. This is like the endless arguments about socialism and communism, where somebody is always available to tell you, “Oh, well THAT brand of communism they had over there, sure, that was the WRONG practice, but let me show you here how WE are going to do it right.”
Baloney. It’s monstrously dangerous and disruptive to civilization to feed the age-old impulse to have others tell someone what to do. A lot of work over the ages went into breeding this out. So it will be undone now merely because there is some revolutionary new technology? No thanks.
All of this reminds me of drug apologists. There’s a lot of drug taking, let’s say. Everyone pushes drugs. Then somebody starts to say, “Whatever happened to sweet Jane/she lost her sparkle you know she isn’t the same/living on reds, vitamin C and cocaine/all a friend can say is ain’t it a shame.” Well, yeah, except there could be something wrong with the taking of all those reds, too, eh?
What your saying is the grounds for the utmost concern. No one would want Second Life, with all its essential good will and creativity and revolutionary qualities, to be dragged into the mire over a BDSM-related suicide (or murder for a scene “gone wrong”). Imagine what the media and Congress will do with that.
No one is likely to find any reasonable way to exercise control over this dangerous thing, just as they claimed not to find any way to mitigate the Bush signs, except through some technological fix they didn’t come up with, so it will fail, and the next time someone comes along to do it, they will likely put in many more restrictions or safeguards that’s likely to make it unsupportable for some.
toy
Jan 24th, 2006
FYI, I am no longer a part of SL Gor… the main reason was the constant drama. Not that I have come to realize its bad and harmful. To some it may be but for the largest part its all a game. Any venue that a person can change roles as it suits them or change back and forth from Free to slave is just playing a game.
I am still with the same person from when I first was in Gor no head games there. As far as Im concerned Gor is impossible in any online venue.
I still am a strong supporter for those who wish to play that game and will never dictate how they wish to play at the game. I just know what is good for me and will still support anyone who wishes to step outside the norm.
Avah (Fallen Hasp)
Jan 24th, 2006
I was willing to give you an opportunity to clarify your remarks Prok. You answered my question anyway by continuing your obnoxious judgemental rant. Nowhere during these tedious lecturing posts have you once clearly stated how BDSM affects you negatively on a personal level. The reason I suspect is simple. It doesnt affect you. Its not about you or how you feel about the lifestyle. Infact, how people choose to rp consensual sex in game has NOTHING to do with you. If you stated you dont appreciate watching females strut around in pg areas wearing latex I could at least relate and tell you to get over it and stop whining. But you wont go that far, altho i suspect the fact that these lifestyles exist and youre even moderately exposed to them may be the underlying reason youve gotten your granny pants knotted up. Since its against Tos to have sex publically in pg areas vanilla or otherwise, you cant claim anyone is forcing you to participate as an audience. I gave you the opportunity to state your disapproval with being publically exposed to any mild level of BDSM rp. But you chose to completely ignore my post. Im gonna assume that means it doesnt bother you, which you more or less stated in your first post in this thread.
“When they extend into the public space, i.e. parading the dress, lifestyle, lingo, I also think they should be extended basic courtesy or non-discrimination, i.e. not blocked from the free flow of goods and services of any free society, simply tolerated as you would tolerate any choice of lifestyle, opinion, belief, etc.”
But then you continued with this . .
“if someone begins to promote it vigorously in the public space, they’ll just have to expect some pushback and not keep pleading “tolerance from liberals” ‘
I will ask you one last time. Define vigorous promotion please.
Ahhh but Im pretty sure you cant give me the definition, Prok. Because what youre refering to obviously does not exist. And, you certainly wouldnt be able to offer evidence verifying an accusation of that magnitude THE REALLY BIG BDSM CONSPIRACY. sighs. I imagine anyone who displays what you consider to be deviant rp behavior is subject to your judgment. Furries maybe? Vampires? Who knows. BDSM has existed in Second Life since the game went live. Thats a fact. What Id like to know is what authority YOU have to tell other adult human beings how to consensually express their own sexuality. More importantly, I want to know why you think we care to hear your opinions on it. Because, honestly, its none of your business what they do. Youre not being forced to participate and they do so with consent from their partners. Its about consent Prok and you really dont get it. For instance, I dont consent to being exposed to long-winded tirades from you lecturing others about their lifestyles. Furthermore, Id like to offer this. When I first started posting on this forum, before holidays, Prok’s lack of objectivity became immediately obvious. She wasted no time raging against my religious beliefs in long exhausting tirades that had zero relation to the thread itself. When i confronted her, she backpeddled like a pro and insisted her remarks were not directed towards my person, despite the fact that I was the only poster who wrote from that particular religious perspective. My response of course was to simply refuse to engage in an arguement over it. The thread quickly died because she was left with no one to argue with. Likewise, I propose everyone here ignore her posts unless she can behave and stick to the thread topic. There is no reason why anyone here should feel compelled to defend their lifestyle choices to a bigoted dinosaur whose only joy is arguing for the sake of it. Shes not curious to learn, make connections or discover proactive solutions to anything. Prok is just another troll, using this forum to alienate and insult its own readers. This is avatar of the year? What a joke.
hummie
Jan 24th, 2006
prokkie dearest
i wish you would stop making these ridiculous reductionist arguments, OR if you need to make them, i wish you would at least try to make them more concise. really.
i am not defending D/s. i am not apologizing for it. i am not putting it down.
i do think that it is not some huge monolithic system designed by Evil to destroy human spirits. in the right hands, with a responsible Dom/me, a person choosing to experience D/s can, i think, experience a level of sexual and emotional intensity
that will bring them back for another dose. the key word in this, is, however,
the word responsible. and responsible means that the person is trained or educated
in what they are doing. to be a responsible Dom/me requires a level of skill and education that is really quite demanding. also requires a level of emotional and
mental discipline that most people just do NOT have. an experienced and educated
Dom/me will always have my respect even though i ain’t a sub.
however.
in SL, you are not dealing, for the most part, with experienced Dom/mes. you are, in SL, dealing with a bunch of people who are taking D/s for a test drive. and that’s bad, in a way, because the Dom/me who is not trained has no clue about how to deal with deep inner stuff that might get called up. for example: a common method of punishment is silence and withdrawal by the Dom/me. now. if you do that, as a Dom/me to somebody who has deep childhood abandonment issues, you are inviting a three ring circus into your life. if you’re experienced, ok you know that and you have skills for dealing with it. if you are, however, your average poser SL Dom/me, you have opened up this wound in a person, and you have nothing to fix it with. that’s not fair to the person who trusted you.
now you can say safe, sane, consensual until doomsday but that does NOT fix what you did to the other person with your vanity and ignorance, does it?
Responsible and trained Dom/mes actually know what to do. the average SL Dom/me
runs around saying “Kneel BITCH” and has no clue what that might be causing in somebody else’s inner world.
that is my point. it is not about D/s. it is about fucking POSERS.
Avah (Fallen Hasp)
Jan 24th, 2006
Hummie thats all very interesting but thats not even the topic of this thread. Thanks for sharing. Is there anyone on this thread who wants to actually address the topic? No? Thats too bad.
hummie
Jan 24th, 2006
one other thing i would like to say before prokkie starts ranting again and that is this:
i am speaking from six months of first hand experience and watching of D/s and Gor in SL. and i wish it to be ABSOLUTELY and COMPLETELY CLEAR that anything i may say here
is ABSOLUTELY NEVER INTENDED to reflect upon the individual who was my Dom/me.
that individual was scrupulously honest in dealings with me.
that individual was concerned about the practice of my RL profession,
and helped me to become better at it by his/her guidance and advice
and concern.
that person was an individual to whom the words TRUTH and HONOR have
real meanings meant to be applied in one’s LIFE.
that this person was human and came to the end of what can only be described
as an extraordinarily long fuse is no fault of that individual, but is rather
the fault of my own temperament, which is passionate, intense, and prone to express
itself in metaphor more than in plain language.
i loved this individual as much as is possible to love an individual in this
strange and somewhat emotionally and psychologically dishonest cartoon world, the
dishonesties of which are NEVER EVER even addressed by those responsible for them,
that is to say, the Linden Labs, who go out playfully into the world and say “can’t do it out THERE?? do it HERE!!” as if there were no human economy of action or feeling at work in relationship between persons behind the cartoons.
i say this because i know that prokkie will come ranting about what prokkie rants
about, which is strange and reductionist, and which is to a large extent built on booklearning rather than lifelearning about these things. and prokkie will blame
the Dom/me because that is a logical thing for a reductionist argument to do.
But.
This was my experience and my life
and I was there.
and i know what happened.
and i will have nothing said against
the Person who was my Dom/me.
truth, honor, and self-honesty
are good things i think.
Prokofy Neva
Jan 25th, 2006
hummie, I’ve been very brief here, and concise, so you’ve come to the wrong address.
And I’m afraid you’re not saying anything new in this next round — you’re merely reiterating that you have special, insider, arcane knowledge, and I’m in the wrong, because I refuse to enter the rituals and partake of the communion to obtain this specialized, arcane knowledge. But blah to all that hummie, this is the Metaverse, we can see all and know all at any time just by taking off “volume” in “debug” and alt-left-clicking and mouse-right-clicking and zooming in, eh? Oops, or did I impart some arcane knowledge there? ROFL!
Um, it doesn’t matter if um, BDSM is uh…this hugely rich, diverse, variegated, teeming, robus world of colour and magic and um…stuff. It still follows some patterns among its various manifestations, and among these are the usual cult patterns like secrecy, a strong leader, sensory deprivation, immunitiy to criticism — look up the phrase “group-think” on wikipedia.org if you don’t like rickross.com definitions. I find that the practioners, far from being the genteel and refined creatures they imagine to be, practice this very headfucking, manipulative behaviour on people just in the common space who happen to run across them, to do businesss with them, to participate in a town hall, whatever. I find that they seem to blur the distictions between their domain, where they are Master of All They Survey (now hmm…where did they put their car keys? remember my parody of Lord Cheetah in TSO)….and the Rest of Us. I find these folks imperiously demanding literalist and specious applications of rules to favour them, haughty and condescending and suspicious approaches to those that merely wander in to look at their builds…freaking and screeching manipulative lying about even the most basic agreeements — in short, well, accountable, asshole behaviour, of which there is never any shortage in Second Life, trust me.
All this safe and sane stuff, which used to be repeated very heavily in TSO to create some kind of firewall between those communities and the *actual children — and I mean 9 years old!* in this public space..is never, ever heard. Instead, you find those idiotic profiles of people speaking in themselves in the third person like they are chattel, “This girl is the property of Master Asshole-of-the-Universe, any questions about this girl go to Master-Asshole,” and then Master Asshole’s profile bragging about all the people he’s got on his chain, as you point out.
Indeed, within five seconds of happening to just go look at a pretty Gorean build I’d been told about, I was having an argument with one of these Master Assholes, and far from engaging in those sort of genteel and nuanced and infinitely special convos you seem to think the “better” ones engage in, he was bragging to me that his group was “collaring” 10 people a day, and even turning away applications. That sort of thing just turns my stomach. You’re seeming to carve out some intellectually pretty and glittery version of BDSM that at least has no mass tastes like “we have 100 collars a month” etc. Yet like the Lindens, the Gor people are growing along with the platform and want to have a good big chunk of those million that the Lindens want to bring in the door, so they don’t really seem to mind the mass taste, the crassness, the abuses of their own cultic concepts, etc.
Um, Avah, we pretty much finished with the topic of “No Pain, No Fun” if you mean, gee, how can you have “fun” in a game with no pain? Well, go and read the thread on Terra Nova to get more “insights” but I think hummie summed it up: there can be a great deal of psychic pain, and if you doubt it, go look at the human wrecks in some of these service groups that the BDSM people themselves have set up to take care of their own cult’s victims.
Prokofy Neva
Jan 25th, 2006
Tranny, please go to the back pages of the Herald where you can already see all your arguments put forth by other people, and read all my persistent and steady answers. You’re doing it again, merely serving up the same old crap, that your ideologies and practices are special, needing of special knowledge and induction and initiation, like a cult, if in fact not a cult indeed. If you are having a problem understanding the charge of “violence” and trying to dodge any charges that come with the concept of “violence,” I suggest you go inworld, fly around, and see all the torture implements for inflicting at least vicarious/virtual/emotional pain if not, of course, real pain, although I’m sure some tekkie wikis are trying to figure out how they can hook up electrodes between their testicles and the game even as we speak. Look at all the collars, cinches, restraints, and slave quarters with hay and caging, etc. Coercion, enslavement, violence. If you think these items, which evoke the normal response of distaste if not nausea in many people, then you’re just engaging in New-Speak and Group-Think in trying to say Bad is Good and Good is Bad and all the rest of that crap that cults always do. It’s boring. And no, I did not vote for Bush. LOL. See, it always goes like that. Next you’ll say I am mentally ill, a hag, have no life, blah blah blah. Try to stay on subject, as you urge others to do.
Re: Define vigorous promotion please. Is public BDSM rp what has you bent? For instance, slaves kneeling in public for their masters or addressing their partners publically as “Master” ? That type of thing? Do you feel its being forced onto you in pg areas? I can understand why that would upset you and others. Or is there something else going on. Your posts are confusing because you rage against the lifestyle but youre not saying specifically what you are objecting to. How it is affecting you personally.
Indeed, going around to free discussions and free meetings of free people (like town halls, Thinkers, etc. etc.) and talking about oneself in the third person, saying Master, using the lingo of Y/you, blah blah blah, yes, that is forcing it on the public space. And this indeed includes PG areas, and that’s actually irrelevant, because nobody really abides by the PGness of PG unless they are playing “gotcha” with enemies and trying to sic Lindens on you. I always marvel to myself and the number of people showing up in town halls with their scripted equipment clanking and creaking and clinking before they touch down — magic collar this, etc. etc. — it’s sad. It has a cumulative effect. One can of course be required to “tolerate this” in the name of “freedom of lifestyle”. But then these self-same promoters of tolerance can take a spoonful of their own medicine and tolerate people’s distaste and repugnance too. At the last townhall, one woman got up and began to really object to the BDSM stuff and demand answers from the Lindens. She was set on like bats out of hell by the BDSMers, and when I volunteered a comment to the effect that this isn’t a recipe for a civilization, I got IM’d by one of the BDSMers who offered to have a private follow-up discussion with me — as she publicly said, oh, pfff, it’s nothing but what men and women used to have a few years ago anyway. Read the transcript! And of course they demand a private follow-up meeting where they hope they can do the virtual equivalent of a sensory-and-sense deprivation and wow you with their argumentation, which is all based on the usual cultic types of argumentation, “our thing is so special you can’t ever understand it, so either initiate yourself into its arcane mysteries, or shut up,” or “we have a beautiful thing here and people’s vanilla relationships in your vanilla world are all filled with wife-beating and non-consensual violence anyway so bah to you” and “My Master has the utmost respect for me and we have something that is incredibly rich and deep and he understands me and treats me better than anybody in the regular world’s type of relationships” etc etc. Well, no sale *shrugs*.
And, you know, I don’t “rage against the lifestyle”. I point out that it’s not a good thing to build a society and a civilization on. I don’t want these people to be in charge. I don’t want them to run my life. I don’t subscribe to their beliefs. I don’t want to be a dom or a sub or a “freed girl of the Tribe Angst” or whatever the fuck wierd roleplay shit they come up with. I’m sorry, but I’m not here to do that. I don’t like headfucking, virtual or real. I don’t want these people to take over, and I push back. It’s just that normal and simple. We’re required by the laws of our own liberal society to be respectful of people’s different choices and tolerate people to do WTF they want in their own home — and we do. But that doesn’t mean we’re supposed to crumple and die with this argumentation of theirs and not say, no, it’s wrong. It is wrong. And many people realize that, and react to it that way, and that has to be respected to.
I could note that the more zealous sectarians of the BDSM cult tried to get a case put over in the European Court of Human Rights that basically pled for the right to have consensual bondage and sado-masochism acknowledged. And it failed. Because RL courts of law are not going to sanction such things, not out of prudish morality, but because they aren’t going to sanction such things as coercion and violence even under the guise of “consent”.
In fact, one of the things BDSM does, like Kentuck Fried Chicken with its KFC, is reduce itself to an acronym that nobody actualy reads and thinks about any more, i.e. bondage and sado-masochism.
Avah (Fallen Hasp)
Jan 25th, 2006
“there can be a great deal of psychic pain, and if you doubt it, go look at the human wrecks in some of these service groups that the BDSM people themselves have set up to take care of their own cult’s victims”
So what. The same can be said for straight vanilla relationships. So what.
Prok you claim to be against BDSM because it takes freedom away from the submissive, subjecting one to violence. But I think youre being hypocritical by promoting freedom from enslavement for BDSM subs. Because, youre trying achieve that goal by forcing your beliefs and lifestyle on everyone in turn. You dont respect the freedom of anyone who chooses a lifestyle you disagree with. Im starting to wonder if you arent a Dom. I think you may be. I also think its obscene that you keep introducing the idea of child molestation into your arguement. Its illegal and thats not what BDSM is about. Also, children are not allowed on the adult grid in game. So youre completely full of shit. You said yourself that you didnt object to mild BDSM rp in public. Dont backpeddle now. Im not here to feed you ammo for your insane paranoid arguement. But since you are whining about it and finally admitting the root of your obsession with this particular topic . . Get over it. Good. Now thats solved. If you do not have anything to contribute to a discussion about the power of BDSM to translate into virtual spaces, which is what the above article pertains to, then why are you posting? Please stop trolling this thread.
TrannyPet Barmy
Jan 25th, 2006
That paragraph was supposed to rip my arguement against you apart Prok ??? …. and you claim to be philosophical ????
‘Violence’, did you do as i suggested ? Go look up the definition of ‘violence’ in a dictionary ?
NO – i dont think you did did you ? Otherwise you would have seen that apart of the definition of ‘violence’ involves FORCE, and since a submissive is submissive by choice, i’m not sure how you come to feel the concept of ‘violence’(as defined in any good dictionary) is applicable. What ever the submissive endures, it is done through choice, and at any time the submissive can stop, i’m sure since you’re so well read on the subject of BDSM you will of course have accross the concept of a ‘safe word’ correct ?
I’ll reiterate, i happen to enjoy moderate amounts of pain, and i happen to enjoy being the sub/slave on my knees saying “yes Mistress” and obeying, just who do you think you are to tell me that what i feel is wrong ? God is the only definer of right and wrong, and it appears to me that you feel you are this entity !!!
As i said Prok, you need to take your head outside of SL world and read up properly, on real life people, not base your complete *opinion* solely on what is said at Terra Nova and in the SecondLife Herald. You also need to stop being such a complete biggot and accept that there are alot of people out there, all feeling and thinking different things, all having different desires,(as i said “different strokes for different folks”), fine if you don’t like what they like, but get over the fact that your way of thinking, and your desires are NOT the universal, so stop trying to enforce them as such !!!
TrannyPet Barmy
The REAL ONE
ps. where the rest of the “ripping Tranny’s arguement to pieces” ? All i see is some poor attempt at redefining ‘violence’ on your part.
toy
Jan 25th, 2006
If anyone does bother to go back in the Herald achives they will soon see you never did answer questions Porky…. all you did was repeat your same mantra over and over…… BTW its been a couple years now and Im still waiting for answers from you
Prokofy Neva
Jan 25th, 2006
Gosh, Avah, you’re revealing yourself to be the Domme, hon, with all that awful bossiness. Geez, take a rest from yourself.
>>But I think youre being hypocritical by promoting freedom from enslavement for BDSM subs. Because, youre trying achieve that goal by forcing your beliefs and lifestyle on everyone in turn. You dont respect the freedom of anyone who chooses a lifestyle you disagree with.
Hahah, slavery is freedom, right? Take meaning away from words, and be the Red Queen. Well, I dunno, I just got done saying here in this thread, and in hundreds of others, that I don’t “force my lifestyle and beliefs” on everybody. I just got done saying that people should do what they want on their own properties, and in the public space, they deserve tolerance and free access to goods, ideas, services, etc. So where is the forcing? That’s silly. Don’t confuse *criticisimg* and *objecting to on philosophical grounds* as forcing. That’s my RIGHT to do, by the same lights of the liberal values you just tried to invoke on me, that I should be tolerant.
Avah, I thought from your posts up til now that you were bright. Don’t disappoint, and don’t go dumb on me now. You know full well you have no place where you can show that I “force beliefs” on people. Propagating my um silly and old fashioned notion of freedom from slavery, well, gosh, that’s not forcing that’s just propagating.
You’re also not understanding the context of my remarks about children because you’re just tuning in. They aren’t related to SL. SL is a game for adults and they are pretty strict about it. So it’s fairly pointless to invoke the issue of child molestation in SL, although I suppose nothing is perfect. But it really is a different game space completely that TSO. In TSO, you didn’t HAVE to be an adult to play it — children as young as nine were on there. It was routine for teens to be on there — they were allowed. SO it was in the context of TSO that I talked (in those old threads)about these problems of exposure of children — and of course they’d try to skirt that by putting up signs “18 and over” on their lots which all silly if you think of it and easy to get around.
Oh well, I try my poor best to stem the tide of the bad arguments and cultic group-think but it’s a loney struggle : )
But I’m not as worried as I used to be because plenty more people can take a look at this now than before, and I believe strongly in the corrective of the democratic society, with all its problems now, in addressing this and pushing back.
A ritual that requires the use of a safe word isn’t safe, and uses force. Violence isn’t just about force. It’s about harm, and the whole point about sado-masochism as an expression is that it talks about enjoyment of the infliction of harm and pain. People tend to lose sight of that obvious fact in having these very rarified discussions.
Um, I’m afraid I did read up on all this stuff both on “RL People” and all the rest, corresponding and posting heavily, back when we all had this on the old SLH.
And you know what? Life is short, then you die. Those are hours of my life I can’t get back : ) I’m not interested in RE-losing them ROFL.
So enjoy your pain, be eternally frustrated that you did’t get the ripping to shreads that you deserve (you can read the back pages of the Herald and get it um vicariously) and rest assured that while my values are not universal, my values of tolerance are in fact recognized as universal, and your values of intolerance are not. You cannot tolerate the notion of someone who does not think as you do, and have no other recourse but to portray them as “oppressing” you. ROFL!
Im starting to wonder if you arent a Dom. I think you may be. I also think its obscene that you keep introducing the idea of child molestation into your arguement. Its illegal and thats not what BDSM is about. Also, children are not allowed on the adult grid in game. So youre completely full of shit. You said yourself that you didnt object to mild BDSM rp in public. Dont backpeddle now. Im not here to feed you ammo for your insane paranoid arguement. But since you are whining about it and finally admitting the root of your obsession with this particular topic . . Get over it. Good. Now thats solved. If you do not have anything to contribute to a discussion about the power of BDSM to translate into virtual spaces, which is what the above article pertains to, then why are you posting? Please stop trolling this thread.
Avah (Fallen Hasp)
Jan 26th, 2006
Oh youre adorable prok. Usin my own writing style against me. mmmm youre a quick study. Unfortunately for you no amount of tap dancing is gonna save this thread from imploding.
Yeah look thats fine and thank you for clarifying all that because alot of what you were saying wasnt makin sense. But in that context yes I can understand your points, especially regaring child abuse. I do believe all adults should be allowed the FREEDOM to choose how they express their sexuality consensually with partners, regardless of what all that entails. And, on that point you and I will simply have to agree to disagree. But, since youve expressed its not your will to interfer with other people’s rights then it hardly matters what you think anyway.
As for the rest of your post . .I dont particularly feel compelled to defend myself. Consider my disinterest a form of arrogance because thats exactly what it is. You are certainly within your right to express your opinions on anything and I freely alknowledge it. I think its inappropriate ( and just bad manners ) to discuss those opinions in threads that arent pertaining to your posts. Its annoying. But, its not my forum. Im just letting you know I dont appreciate when you do that.
SeXXXy Bliss
May 3rd, 2006
I very much like the diversity of RP in SL…
When a slave kneels in front of me it does not bother me. It’s like someone bowing or shaking your hand in my opinion, a form of respect. Is respect a bad thing, I don’t think so.
Although I am not personally involved in RP (SL or RL) it has sparked a bit of interest in my somewhat dull existance.
I understand what all of you are saying (feelings, etc.) about this ‘social’ area in game but I also feel that we are not worthy of ‘judging’ anyone or anything.
People pay money to play SL and should feel free and be welcome to do whatever they choose as long as it harm none.
So on that note I will fade away into the game and welcome who/whatever comes my way as I am one of the gifted with an ‘open mind’!
WhiteWolf
Aug 17th, 2007
I’d like to start of by saying when I say ‘bad’ or ‘evil’ I mean it in the sense that they have the intent to cause harm to people and or property (not so much the latter as the former)
Well, I’d have to say that it IS impossible to know enough about anything really. There’s always that one detail you need to know, that one fact thats suddenly important. Sure there are some bad people practicing BDSM, but that’s true about everything. There have been bad Christians, bad Muslims, bad Jews. Any large group has bad people despite what they do to stop it.
Here’s my problems with this argument
*You’re grievances haven’t been listed out and you’ve both resorted to ad hominem attacks.
*This is an online application (as in computer program) not real life. You could be blown to bits by a bomb (assuming you have the ability to create bombs) and it wouldn’t hurt you at all.
*There are enough ideas behind BDSM to make it impossible to determine with what you have problems with out your telling us (I.E. List out your grieviances).
~WhiteWolf~