Fleeced [CORRECTED]
by prokofy on 16/11/06 at 4:01 pm
[Editor's note/Correction: Contrary to some passages in Prokofy Neva's Op/Ed piece below, the Electric Sheep Company informs us that it does not have a real-life apparel retailer as a client and was not involved in the creation and distribution of CopyBot or the Mannequin avatars. (See comments from two Sheep, Giff Constable and Satchmo Prototype, below.) The Herald continues to investigate the CopyBot story and will bring you further details as and when they become clear.
-- Walker Spaight]
By Prokofy Neva, Community Affairs Desk
Somehow, in the welter of suddenly published chat logs, “reorganizations” that appear to signal resignations from libsecondlife (we’re told John Hurliman has stepped down and another prominent figure is in the wings to leave, too), and sordid tales of silencing people with bribes — there’s a bit of news that somehow isn’t bubbling to the surface.
And that’s the motivation for this caper with all the Bots. It seems that the Electric Sheep Company had a big client — a RL apparel store. They wanted to realize that Big Business dream we’ve heard of so many times, that involves having your avatar enter a 3-D virtual store and try on clothes to see what they’re like. Of course, us SL worlders always found that a kind of dorky idea because what person in their right mind is going to make their actual RL person’s figure as a fantasy avatar?!
The lure is great, however, so this big customer — in a rush — asked ESC to perform the magic, and they turned to libsecondlife, which they already had a relationship with. Have you seen the numerous avatars with the first name Mannequin in the list, born November 7? Are you now doing the math?
The mannequins are the CopyBots products, of course, a job that was evidently taken on commission, a bit of a wild card, since we’re always led to believe these l33t haxxors are supposedly voluntarily, crowdsourcedly, working for the Common Weal as Raph Koster is now putting it.
We never did hear what the apparel store got in the end — an army of creepy mannequins that might rustle in the closet like the Bot Boy replicas in that movie A.I.?
But you start to get the idea, perhaps. The anti-Bot demonstrations maybe don’t belong in front of the libsecondlife building in Hooper, or even on Sheep Island, but at a RL store that might be in Tokyo or Brooklyn. Along with a RL-size boycott of RL goods to express your distress and indignation at what has happened in SL.
It seems clear to me what did happen, no matter how much Hamlet Linden describes it as the happy-go-lucky hijinks of his hip pals, or how much Gwyneth Llewelyn relates it as digital heartburn and inevitable Stage of History.
The point is, if we were all supposed to be shills and be beavering away making this stuff for pennies, so that Big Business could come in and render our products pointless AND cream off the best and talented programmers and also pay them at whopping rates dwarfing our world, then…why didn’t they tell us? They could have said it was more like The Sims on Line, where you can grind away on the jam-maker and then when you get like 200,000 Lindens you *might* be able to get them sold on ebay for like $20 US lol just as an account credit that’s a contribution to your long-awaited purchase of the complete set of Time Tunnel reruns.
So where are we now? We’re nowhere. We can continue business as usual — and I actually advocate that. I always think horizontally, we need to go on making the world, stepping literally around the bots thrown at us, as an important cross-purpose to the Lindens’ and FIC’s vertikal, or top-down power structure.
I don’t like the idea that 649 seamstresses in STOP THE BOT!!! have to die for the greater glory of the platform and the glory of metaversal consulting companies to make a buck — that’s just injust. A RL store needs a cool toy for its mannequins, and we have to witness the destruction of our world?!
You don’t have to imagine SL being a little protectionist snow-globe to simply ask for fairness, equal partnership, and accountability. That’s been sorely lacking.
Aimee Weber
Nov 17th, 2006
“There are multiple sources, all reliable in the past, all with documentation including by your own Destroy TV — perhaps her past filming is saved — that puts Electric Sheep members together with libsecondlife members on Nov. 7 at the debut of the CopyBot, observing the Mannequins run through their paces.” -Prok
Wait, are you citing this as evidence of Sheeps involvement? Here is a pic of me getting a demo on Nov 6, the day before:
http://www.sluniverse.com/pics/pic.aspx?id=114022
My point? You cherry-picked your evidence so you could write the story you wanted to write.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 17th, 2006
So…you’re in on it too, Aimee? Even a day earlier? Why didn’t YOU abuse report it and sound the alarm to the community, given its destructive potential and the malice of the people involved in making it?
I didn’t cherry pick anything. I merely point out that the Sheep cannot make blanket statements about having nothing to do with development and distribution of CopyBot when they are shown cheering its dress rehearsal.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 17th, 2006
How does he “pwn” libsl? Didn’t they get him to leave? or did they all leave, and so now he rules a rump version of it? or what?
nimrod yaffle
Nov 17th, 2006
Last I heard they kicked Baba (and myself, even though I was never in it(Contrary to what you believe, prok)). They then resigned, and made Baba the head person. That’s all I heard about that.
Cory Edo
Nov 17th, 2006
How did I know my name was going to come up in this. Prok, your selective reading ability is amazing.
“Cory Edo herself has explained how she got later and tested CopyBot and determined it wasn’t that big a deal, and that means that at least to a limited extent, you passed around copies between libsl and ESC.” No, Prok, that is completely and totally untrue. Period. YOU DON’T READ. And if you do, you choose to ignore what doesn’t bolster your argument.
I also explained how I got it – from a third party forum. Second Citizen, to be exact. Someone posted a link to the zip file in one of the threads discussing it. That’s where I got it from. No insider dealing, no pulling strings. Oh, wait, here’s the thread!
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=4997
And here’s what I said!
“First – took me a while to find the compiled version of this, since I couldn’t find it on SLX and libSL has removed it all from their website. Found a link on a third party forum that’s apparently hosting it seperate from libSL.
The file I got was an .exe, no instructions. Took me some time messing with it before I figured out how to run it.”
Is that not abundantly clear enough for you? If not, the same exact thing is posted in SLU’s forums, word for word.
“Cory Edo in this thread says nonchalantly that in fact it is likely that CopyBot WAS invented on commission by a client.
Hello? Don’t you folks have a clue how serious this is? Businesses use libsecondlife and get to reverse the client on commission from clients, possibly even these big-name businesses, and that gets to wreck our Second Live economy???”
Here’s what I ACTUALLY SAID (and here’s the post – http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=88241&postcount=27):
“I don’t think the part that’s being disputed is the possibility that it was made for someone’s client somewhere…its the part about it being ESC’s client. Which it wasn’t.”
And here’s what YOU said I said:
“Cory’s nonchalant attitude that it would be normal or acceptable to work in a reverse-engineering project on special dispensation and then also not only get commissions, but make a thing that terrorized the user economy”
Do you even comprehend the difference? My statement was that what’s being disputed isn’t that Copybot may or may not have been developed upon the request of a third party client. I HAVE NO IDEA IF IT WAS OR WASN’T. And I don’t claim to know either way. Is it not outside the realm of possibility? Probably not, I have no clue, I wasn’t involved with this being developed or tested whatsoever, I got my copy on November 14th after the rumors started flying fast and furious about what it does and doesn’t do, specifically to help a friend that was very worried about it so we could together determine what it can actually do. The discussion in the thread in Second Citizen, specifically the post I responded to with my statement, was stating that Eddie Stryker was quoted by Hamlet that the copybot was being developed for a client. The implication is that well, if it was being commissioned for a client, then ESC must have commissioned it – that is the crux of the dispute, and that is the falsehood.
You took a one sentence statement of mine stating that the possibility of something happening isn’t the crux of the argument, and deliberately misinterpreted it in order to claim that I think that possibility is “normal and acceptable”. I demand a retraction, personally, on the basis that your statements are damaging to my personal reputation and also to damaging to the company I work for.
Random Writer
Nov 17th, 2006
The apology is deleted and his name is on as contact info.
But of course, you’d know that right if you were following breaking info?
BTW, has anyone seen this?
http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=149169&page=2
=== jhurliman < ~John@res151036.resnet.wsu.edu> “John”
What’d you do now? 
hey! came to ask you for something..
lol, np
so… how attached are you to the Nimrod Yaffle name in SL? heh.
2000% I denied it on SC because I didn’t want the Lindens to make the link… well… see that I admit it at least
really? hmm
Yep, why?
did you see the press about how the link has been made?
How else would I have known you were banned before everyone else? lol
oooo?
Where?
well i’m talking with adam and a few of the core libsecondlife guys and they need to escape from the bad PR situation in a serious way
hold on i’ll grab the link
“Word on the grid is that Baba and his Bot-buddy Nimrod Yaffle are being frog-marched by the Lindens out the door — that even our liberal lib-lubbin’ Love-Machine loons have had enough.”
http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh…rl_ge.html#more
aah, ok
Oh yeah, I know they know it’s me
“Banned CopyBot Girl GeForce Go’s Identity Revealed?”
ok
I just thought that they made the link with you
well, to save the libsecondlife group face i’ll offer you a deal. since you are involved with the sale already, if you take the complete fall and claim ownership of Prim Revolution i can pay some financial damages for your name being damaged
“Reports at the Second Citizen web site forums indicate that CopyBot salesgirl GeForce Go may have had an alternate identity – the well known nimrod Yaffle.”
Hmm, how much?
$100 USD?
eeehh lol
I think you’d be ok though, nobody has suggested your connection yet
well how about this. you don’t know who prim revolution is, but you’re pretty sure he’s an old member of V5 but have no idea which
Still with the money? lol
sure, if you defend that story with honor
Sure
I can even name current V5 in SL to point fingers at 
great
heh, we have a PR overlord working here, so he might set you up with some targeted forum topics to respond to, or a blog post to comment on with your story
haha, ok
Hmm, what do you make of this? http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh…baba_sucks.html
you aren’t getting kicked out by lindens, don’t worry. but libsecondlife is going to make a blunt statement saying they had no connection whatsoever with anyone selling copybot
Oh man, this just keeps getting better 
indeed
haha, now Prok thinks I’m Baba
[3:19] nimrod Yaffle: Am I Baba?
oooh
but the chat log says nothing… I don’t get it?
she means the one in the #libsl channel i believe
Yeah, this:
http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh…baba_sucks.html
But I don’t see a connection?
who is cw?
she is connecting the “free the prims!” mentality of GeForce Go with that same attitude by BabaYama
oh
an ESC employee
ah
Oh wow “Nov 10 19:03:04 BabaYama the bot should just teleport around to every sim stealing attachments and apperaances and storing them in folders” that’s what I said too lol
ahahaha
Maybe if I could script or knew how to program I *might* see the connection prok is making… but i have NO idea what she’s talking about… and she doesn’t want to explain it
baba can’t script or program either
oh
well there ya go!
haha, it works in her mind!
lol
she’s asking who cw is
like a name
should I make one up? 
hey tester anvil is gone from the people list
really? hm
i don’t even know his name… cw!
haha
[3:32] Prokofy Neva: yes but who is Prim the new alt of?
lol, V5!
testing anvil still shows in the list
here you go
* Prim Revolution was obviously an alt account, and it looks like it was an old member of the banned V5 group back for more
Oh, I did tester
that bullet point was forwarded to me
K
* Haven’t heard from Prim since the ordeal, probably a dead account now
if you’re asked about the software itself at all you can say that the download link was taken down, otherwise no need to mention it
K
[3:35] Prokofy Neva: who is Prim>?
lol
haha, now I’m just messing with her…
feed her the V5 lead
K
You should join the “I love waffles” group
Many V5 are in that group
with prim? ok
yeah
er.. “waffle time”
k
did it
did you tell her?
cool
Nope, I will in a bit
ok
[3:53] nimrod Yaffle: Did you know that 90% of the “Waffle Time” group are V5?
Maybe she’ll make the connection?
cool
let her work for the clues
yeah
[3:57] Prokofy Neva: who’s the office Linden in on this CopyBot stuff?
no lindens knew about it until the general populace did
ok
Should I fight for Geforce with LL? That account didn’t break any TOS
i would just leave it dead, seriously
ok
it’s not of any value, and you probably won’t make many friends under that name
lol, I had money on it
oh really? is it banned right now?
yeah
they put it on hold
then it said the account was disabled
the hold will get released i’m thinking
oh, hm.
If anything, PRIM should be banned lol
yeah you’d think
I actually only used the bot once, and that was with the tester anvil
they probably just looked at the land owner and left
And I fifnd this interesting…
http://forums.secondlife.com/showth…ghlight=geforce
Isn’t there a no naming policy in the forums?
yes, you can click the warning sign to report it
yeah, I just searched the forums and reported all of them 
but it’s kind of pointless since that post isn’t going anywhere further
nice
I thought that about the account too
I wonder if I can convince them to just give me the linden that was on it
you might be able to, yeah
since you didn’t technically violate the ToS, and you stopped the activity once you were aware lindens were not in approval
Who would I contact?
you would probably have to call billing and get forwarded somewhere i guess
Oh, bleh, ok
Oohh, check Slinsider
I like how they take the actions of one person for the whole group
where at
http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/
yeah… ouch. that’s why we’re preparing a new direction
“eanwhile Prim Revolution, who made the bot — and was said to be related to the banned W-Hat and V-5 groups — remained at large in SL, victory-dancing at the site of the already- sold CopyBot parcel.”
=== jhurliman: member of @#libsl
=== jhurliman: attached to irc.efnet.pl “ATMAN, Warsaw, Poland”
— End of WHOIS information for jhurliman.
[3:20] Prokofy Neva: How can anyone tell? and you are as phony as a 3-dollar bill
[3:20] nimrod Yaffle: I’m *very* confused
[3:20] Prokofy Neva: oh knock it off
[3:20] Prokofy Neva: in the chat log
[3:35] Prokofy Neva: the alt of?
[3:35] nimrod Yaffle: Can’t say, you have a habit of posting chat logs.
[3:35] Prokofy Neva: it doesn’t matter
[3:35] Prokofy Neva: and i haven’t posted any chat log of yours
[3:35] Prokofy Neva: and i haven’t posted any chat log of yours
[3:35] nimrod Yaffle: yet
[3:36] nimrod Yaffle: Wait
[3:36] nimrod Yaffle: if I’m Baba… then you did post a chat log of me
[3:53] nimrod Yaffle: What’s funny, is that when I mentioned it to the Linden that’s a member, he seemed confused and has no idea what I was talking about
[3:58] nimrod Yaffle: What do you mean?
Known Networks ChatZilla error Connected Networks Users
Connected to
URL irc://foo/bar Not Connected Lag
URL irc://foo/bar Mode
Topic
URL irc://efnet/jhurliman,isnick Connected via irc.efnet.pl
Conversation with jhurliman < ~John@res151036.resnet.wsu.edu>
John
File Progress
jhurlima2
alright, thanks for the help. i am withdrawing my $ from SL right now and will have it whenever the paypal transaction finishes, i think that usually happens thursday or friday
so i can paypal you then
I don’t have apaypay account
*a paypal
Can’t you pay me with the Linden?
Oh yeah, did Prim get the 3.5k for the sale of the parcel from the group land? 
oh, yeah
no he didn’t
well, i can go back and double-check the account history
OK 
That’d pay for the account itself lol, but did you already sell the Linden?
i can send you lindens as soon as they move out to paypal and i can move $100 back in
Ok, cool
*sighs and prepares for the hate IMs*
me too
Oy, read this!
[5:09] *** Welcome to Live Help, where our wonderful volunteers assist their fellow Residents with Second Life! ***
[INFO] Query view for “jhurlima2” opened.
=== jhurlima2 < ~John@res151036.resnet.wsu.edu> “John”
=== jhurlima2: member of #libsl
=== jhurlima2: attached to irc.efnet.pl “ATMAN, Warsaw, Poland”
— End of WHOIS information for jhurlima2.
=-= jhurlima2 is now known as jhurliman
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[5:09] nimrod Yaffle: There’s an object spamming me near my parcel ‘!quit’ How do I report this if I can’t find it?
heh, they are probably tired of that very quickly
the !quit spammers
Yeah, but there’s no way for me to find what’s IMing me?
can you click Profile in the IM?
or is it even an IM?
No, it’s chat spam
LIke…. 4 messages a second
Oh wtf: [5:30] nimrod Yaffle: Data? Hellp?
O_O
=-= YOU (Nimrod) have been booted from #secondlife by MRY-H96 (Banned)
oh dang
lol
:-/
I dunno if it’s worth it, i guess it’s too late though
[5:10] Data Linden: Hi, that’s a harmless broadcaster, designed to disrupt the shareware copybot’s activities. Well-intentioned, but already obsolete and very annoying. Go to chat history (Control-H), find the object’s name in the dropdown list at the top, and click Mute.
[5:10] nimrod Yaffle: Yes I know
[5:10] nimrod Yaffle: I wish to report it though
[5:11] nimrod Yaffle: How would I find it to report it?
[5:12] nimrod Yaffle: Hello?
[5:12] Data Linden: Just mute it nimrod, it will be dealt with
[5:13] nimrod Yaffle: How can it be dealt with if you don’t know where they exist?
[5:14] nimrod Yaffle: ?
[5:14] Data Linden: We have more then one way for deleting it
[5:15] nimrod Yaffle: Can’t I just be able to find it somehow and IM the owner? That way LL doesn’t even need to get involved
[5:18] nimrod Yaffle: I guess that’s a no
[5:20] Data Linden: If you can find it you can file an abuse report against it
[5:20] nimrod Yaffle: [5:09] nimrod Yaffle: There’s an object spamming me near my parcel ‘!quit’ How do I report this if I can’t find it?
[5:21] nimrod Yaffle: I believe I asked how to do that about 10 minutes ago
[5:23] nimrod Yaffle: Are you ignoring me now?
[5:28] nimrod Yaffle: Data
[5:28] nimrod Yaffle: ?
[5:30] nimrod Yaffle: *Hello?
[5:32] Second Life: Data Linden has left this session.
You were lead on Prok. I don’t know who your other sources are, but they might have been conspiring to make you look silly.
Random Writer
Nov 17th, 2006
K, well, the copy paste thing didn’t work… go read it to get the names and such, some of it is cut out of the middle too… dang nabbit!
Underdroog
Nov 17th, 2006
The person I feel bad for in all this is Copybot herself. So many haters. Yet the same haters all love Destroy TV. They fawn over her and even call her Desire TV (though her name rightly should be “Legion”), yet is she not the product of the very same Frankenstein Lab of SLlib technology? Is she not the product of a TOS-busting reverse engineered client? And is she not in the direct employ of the very same Sheep of which we are ever so suspicious?
Oh sure, Copybot is fickle, something of a social chameleon, always trying to fit in, but I ask you all, nay I implore you: can we not show her some love? Must she be the unwanted sibling, forever living in the shadow of her sister Destroy TV?
Prokofy Neva
Nov 17th, 2006
>is she not the product of the very same Frankenstein Lab of SLlib technology? Is she not the product of a TOS-busting reverse engineered client? And is she not in the direct employ of the very same Sheep of which we are ever so suspicious
oh…are you saying that in fact the Sheep *did* have access to libsecondlife and did stuff with it to enhance their own company? I thought there wasn’t supposed to be any relationship between ESC and Libsl — but I didn’t realize DestroyDesire was a creature of libsecondlife. I thought Hank made it in his basement or put it in the kitchen sink or something.
Well, this is a subject I’m having convos on right now.
Is it ok to make money off libsecondlife? Well, I don’t think so, because I think it’s supposed to be a non-profit project. But if it is open source, says the argument, why not? The Internet is based — nay, SL is based — on people using open source for profit.
Well but this is different. How? The Lindens give authorization — special Papal dispensation — to a select group to reverse engineer with impunity — without punishment.
There’s a reason game companies make reverse engineering a bannable offense. It leads to players god-stalking, making giant prims, and copying stuff…wait…we have that.
But since they are ostensibly Linden-feted and working toward the common weal, it seems faintly tacky to commission projects and get paid off it — but I’d live to hear what others think.
And it’s not open source so much as it is kind of limited source — first, special authorization, and testing within the SL, then, when there is a product, they open-source.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 17th, 2006
Contrary to what you believe, prok)).
I never believed you were in Libsl, and never said you were. You weren’t in the group, I don’t think, but you were constantly AROUND it just like you were always AROUND v-5, which always strengthens the possible perception that you have alts in these groups or around these groups — you get in the loop though Nimrod, that’s what counts : )
Prokofy Neva
Nov 17th, 2006
Yes, we saw that days ago when it was posted in SC; and Nimrod also spoke of the info in it to me. So? It’s a good exemplification of my efforts to get to the bottom of this story, which I thought was originally related to the Lindens in libsl, though they, too, claim no prior knowledge of CopyBot.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 17th, 2006
>Cory Edo herself has explained how she got later and tested CopyBot and determined it wasn’t that big a deal, and that means that at least to a limited extent, you passed around copies between libsl and ESC.” No, Prok, that is completely and totally untrue. Period. YOU DON’T READ. And if you do, you choose to ignore what doesn’t bolster your argument.
>I also explained how I got it – from a third party forum. Second Citizen, to be exact. Someone posted a link to the zip file in one of the threads discussing it. That’s where I got it from. No insider dealing, no pulling strings.
Cory, this is so transparently ridiculous. I read it. Every word. Many times. And I give it to tenants to help allay their fears about CopyBot.
But this “someone” — gosh, who could THAT be? Of course it’s libsecondlife, or v5, or the same thing, which riddles SC — it’s all intertwined. It’s not just some neutral public “someone,” it’s v-5, which began grabbing libsl off the rack and spreading it.
I think since you do have CopyBot and test it you may likely distribute it. So that’s why it’s foolish for ESC to say you have absolutely nothing to do with it. That’s all.
And I’ve yet to hear a good explanation about how/why Sheep were at the debut of CopyBot.
Christian Prior
Nov 17th, 2006
Prok,
I’ve neither mystery surrounding me nor a bone to pick; sorry to hear you took it personally. It’s because of the regularity with which you spread misinformation — as in this case — that you serve as a convenient personification of ignorance.
To echo the other Sheep’s offers, please feel free to contact me in the future before you make such claims. As the only developer at ESC who is a non-contributing member of the libsl project, I would have been happy to answer any questions, dispel your fears, and set you straight on your facts regarding the Sheep’s non-involvement in all libsl development, CopyBot or otherwise.
Christian Westbrook / Christian Prior
Jennyfur
Nov 17th, 2006
Prok, Someone sent me a picture a day or so before the copybot hysteria started of their av cloned. I didn’t think much of it. I didn’t know how this persons av was cloned or that it would have had such disastorous results. TO be honest, I didn’t even care. Does that make me a conspirator with prior knowledge? Did I think this was against TOS? It didn’t occur to me to abuse report something that I was not even aware of. Its easy to log on multiple accounts and take a snapshot or fool around in Photoshop.
Ever hear of Occums Razor?
BTW, its sounds to me like you are demanding special treatment and perks from Mark much like those special perks that you rail against when they happen to anyone who is not you.
Cory Edo
Nov 17th, 2006
You want the someone? Here’s the thread that I got the link from:
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=85864&postcount=234
And nice backpedaling. Your original statement said that because I had a version of copybot, “that means that at least to a limited extent, you passed around copies between libsl and ESC”.
But now, because I actually *didn’t* get it from ESC or libSL, then it doesn’t matter because “its all intertwined”! A third party forum where someone provided a version of the program on his own site is now, in your mind, the logical equivalent of the actual libSL project. And even without knowing who provided the link in the SC forums, you’re saying that they’re V-5. And THAT is what’s transparently ridiculous about this. I still demand a retraction. Saying “oh well, its all the same thing” is NOT a retraction.
“I think since you do have CopyBot and test it you may likely distribute it. So that’s why it’s foolish for ESC to say you have absolutely nothing to do with it. That’s all.”
Are you going to level the same accusations against other residents who have a version of copybot since it was released, and used it to determine exactly what was fact from fiction? Because there were a number of people that did exactly that. They even posted in the threads to say that they tested it and came to the same conclusions. Maybe you should call the companies that those people work for and tell them that they’re responsible for copybot as well. And those people that got it, and tested it – are THEY also likely to distribute it? Should you single them out and name them here? And what makes you think that they’re “likely” to distribute it? What previous actions, what judgement of character, makes you think that?
And I’ve yet to hear a retraction, or even a reason, for your twisting and deliberate misinterpretation of my words to bolster your argument. Here they are again:
Here’s what I ACTUALLY SAID (and here’s the post – http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=88241&postcount=27):
“I don’t think the part that’s being disputed is the possibility that it was made for someone’s client somewhere…its the part about it being ESC’s client. Which it wasn’t.”
And here’s what YOU said I said:
“Cory’s nonchalant attitude that it would be normal or acceptable to work in a reverse-engineering project on special dispensation and then also not only get commissions, but make a thing that terrorized the user economy”
Random Writer
Nov 17th, 2006
“”"”Yes, we saw that days ago when it was posted in SC; and Nimrod also spoke of the info in it to me. So? It’s a good exemplification of my efforts to get to the bottom of this story, which I thought was originally related to the Lindens in libsl, though they, too, claim no prior knowledge of CopyBot.”"”"
And it never once crossed your mind that someone who was conspiring about Copybot, would lie to you?
Eric Maelstrom
Nov 17th, 2006
Jennyfur, I think you mean Occam’s Razor. If you are trying to sound smart, it helps if you spell things correctly. Also, Occam’s Razor really doesn’t apply to this situation. There are obviously many people involved in this affair, with varied motivations, and much is still unknown. Perhaps Heinlein’s “devil theory (“You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity”) is a more apt statement regarding Prokofy’s article.
Although I don’t often agree with Prokofy, I believe he posted this in good faith. I also have no reason to disbelieve the ESC people when they claim they are not responsible. I do have hope that through discussions and articles like this one, the truth will out.
Allana Dion
Nov 17th, 2006
“Of course it’s libsecondlife, or v5, or the same thing, which riddles SC — it’s all intertwined.”
At the moment I’m no great fan of libsl. In fact I believe the group should have been disbanded. However I’m a bit confused. How exactly are libsl and V5 the same thing and “intertwined” with SC? How are you making this connection between libsl,and a group of banned alleged griefers?
Topo Gigio
Nov 17th, 2006
So proud and valiant that Captain Prokofy!
Staying with the sinking ship in the face of an overwhelming enemy! Red shirt and all!
“Exaggeration of every kind is as essential to journalism as it is to dramatic art, for the object of journalism is to make events go as far as possible”
Arthur Schopenhauer
tp
Nov 17th, 2006
If you think this story is fuckinfabucopybotlicous wait till you see the news about the original gangsta funders behind linden lab paying for some good old fashioned business model knowledge to the sum of about $350.000 Linden Dollars and 6 months worth of private island sim to test a winning theory.
Also since there is no jury in SL to hear a a case of business A VS journalist B this entire affair is he said she said bullshit.
The talk of suits over Libel is fucking hilarous though. Good luck with that or any other claims in SL. Consider Taxation and profit in SL to US Govt and how much they give a flyign fuck about virtual goods along with it.
LL is obviously gonna blanket statement what the client can and can’t do, but as long as suzy rotten crotch doesn’t know her photosource pussy is being dmca’ed she could make a minimum wage in SL selling sex parts and quite her job at walmart.
Urizenus
Nov 17th, 2006
Oh don’t worry tp, the gangsta funders story is coming soon!
Artemis Fate
Nov 18th, 2006
Eh I don’t even know why you guys are arguing about this. I mean, have you EVER seen Prokofy retract a statement or admit that he was wrong even in a situation where he was obviously and wildly incorrect?
I think by this point we all know that Prok sticks to his guns to the end, even if they’re exploding in his face.
You atleast got him to admit that the source might have been incorrect and therein the assumption somewhat off, which is impressive enough.
Hiro Pendragon
Nov 18th, 2006
I saw one challenge from Prok that didn’t get addressed:
>> “And I’ve yet to hear a good explanation about how/why Sheep were at the debut of CopyBot.”
There really is a simple answer for this – the scripting community in SL is small, and when one person has something cool to show off, they start spreading the word.
Also, I think it helps to realize that there’s a world of difference between showing off a novel trick with the client in a controlled manner, and letting the source code leak to the community at large. Did people attending the opening of CopyBot know that someone was selling and distributing? That’s not the message I’ve gotten.
Urizenus
Nov 18th, 2006
That’s my sense of it too, Hiro. Small community of scripters/developers, word gets around. Note however, that this is also going to lead to suspicion and will fuel not a few conspiracy theories. I’m not saying that’s just or injust, I’m just saying that’s how it is. The only solution is perhaps openness and a superogatory effort to explain the technology and extant projects to those on the outside.
SignpostMarv Martin
Nov 18th, 2006
Prokofy Neva
I’d just like to clarify that in some situations, the acceptance of content is automatic, and much in the same way as “read reciepts” with email, a message saying Linden X and Linden Y have accepted content Z.
I ran a test to be sure, and in all instances, I recieved a message saying that the person I was sending the notecard to had accepted the content.
1) Send notecard to friend, have them close the notecard by clicking the “X” icon.
2) de-friend person, repeat 1
3) have them log out, send two cards, one to be closed with the “X” icon, one to be discarded.
This short experiment illustrates my point that getting a message saying that a person has accepted your content does not mean they have accepted your content, or even read it. Only that it appeared on their screen or in their inventory.
Sativa Prototype
Nov 18th, 2006
If Second Life Herald is going to be considered as a real source of information then it must be run like it. Prokofy should not reveal sources under pressure from the businesses in question, that is not the way it works. Was it ok to suspend Prok as a writer? No, if this “paper” has no approval of stories by editors before they go to “print” then lesson learned, you trusted her enough to allow her to write then stick behind it or be seen as a source that can be swayed by opinion. If this “paper” cannot approve it’s stories before they go out then it’s not so much of a paper now is it, more like a trusted group of people and a blog.
While the article was perhaps rushed out, Prokofy trusted the sources, fact checked, sat on it, only released it after the information was starting to be release by others, and released it as an op ed piece, what more can a writer do?
From the comments I gather that the Sheep were not involved directly in the use of copybot at the request of a client. I have seen no denial of Sheep knowing and being involved in the debut of it. If you knew it was out, why did you publicly support it by attending? And once you were there why did you not leave and report it or make a public announcement about it to everyone else. You want good press instead of bad? The choices are yours to make as well as the associations you make. If you want to be seen as a reliable company with interests in the development of Second Life then you must act that way. I have, and still do, respect the work that ES has done, yet lately the press you are getting is giving you a bad name in terms of ethics. Rather than blame the people who are pointing out your mistakes try not making those mistakes. So while yes it seems you had no hand in using copybot for a client, you did know about it before the vast majority. A program that will allow you to copy a prim construct done by someone else, where did you see the good in that other than a way to copy work by others without their approval or copy things constructed by now gone residents. I can in no way see a “good” use for copybot other than allowing a team member to continue a build when the original creator is offline, but isn’t that what groups are for? To associate yourself with that is not acceptable, everyone in this new age of SL hype wants the glory, but not the social or moral obligation that goes along with it. If you want to be leaders you must act that way. The same thing happens in the real world I know, but in SL we the residents have a bit more control over production and purchasing power. We do not need large groups to build things for outside companies for our enjoyment, we have been doing just fine for quite some time without them. If you wish to be seen as a captain of our industry it means more than profit, it means a dedication to the development of the world and its community.
Prokofy is a good writer, like it or not, and the articles bring about discussion, which is good. If you want happy land filled with business spin about how good the toilet is that your being flushed down then by all means read any of the other writers who fawn over Second Life, there seems to be no shortage of them.
If you want to ride out in front with the white hat and six guns blazing expect to be the first one to get shot at by the bad guys.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 18th, 2006
Signpost, duh, I know about how the system can automatically show an “inventory received” and be a false positive. Yet every *other* time I’ve written to these same Lindens and sent them notes, they’ve answered. And sending them an IM usually works. No, I can’t buy this is a message capping or false positive syndrome when I write 2 of them, and several times.
>Re: Prok,
I’ve neither mystery surrounding me nor a bone to pick; sorry to hear you took it personally. It’s because of the regularity with which you spread misinformation — as in this case — that you serve as a convenient personification of ignorance.
To echo the other Sheep’s offers, please feel free to contact me in the future before you make such claims. As the only developer at ESC who is a non-contributing member of the libsl project, I would have been happy to answer any questions, dispel your fears, and set you straight on your facts regarding the Sheep’s non-involvement in all libsl development, CopyBot or otherwise.
Christian Westbrook / Christian Prior
The arrogant, nasty, dickheaded manner in which you’ve fobbed of this reply to the confrontation to the Sheep about their staff member’s relationship to libsecondlife shows me — and others — all we need to know.
A believe that I’m ignorant — though I am not. I know as much as the next person, was the first to break the CopyBot story in the SL news media, kept asking the right questions, and now turned up this: ESC *was* involved! You can dance 100 ways around this fact, but now your belligerent and cocky attitude gives it away.
It’s the arrogance and over-confidence of a man who works for a company that has signed an NDA, and feels they have an exclusivity and a specialness that no mere commoner can challenge. I can hardly think of you as someone I’d call, when you display this shitty, arrogant attitude to others, that you know it all, and I’m ignorant.
What was I ignorant of? The truth about you? And Copybot? Now I’m not ignorant anymore…
I haven’t spread misinformation as some kind of pattern of activity; I’d challenge you to find and rebut a single false thing I’ve posted — before the retraction I placed here about an actual exaggeration concerning the Sheep having an apparel client — when they didn’t. Where is it? It’s your IMAGINATION that I do this — because your close friends yammer about me and obsess about me and hate what I write and don’t like my criticism, but where the falsehoods you claim?
And my…aren’t we a long way from saying “the Sheep had nothing whatsoever to do with this and had no involvement in the CopyBot” to having you sneering with the others in the chat channel, mocking me among others, and also being a “noncontributing member” even of Libsecondlife itself!
Wow…just WOW. I kept looking for the name in the list that would fit “CW” but I hadn’t recalled that you RL name was CW. So it’s in fact as the sources said, and worse than I knew. Not only are you a Sheep employee; you are able to talk that same kind of nasty, cynical talk in the channel as Baba did, and take the most malicious attitude to your fellow avatars in Second Life. That’s what it is issue.
Uri, sure, it’s a little incestuous groups of former residents turned Lindens and residents, people who feel they are the “ne plus ultra” of the scripting world, and they pal around together. But we see their culture — it stinks. It’s wrong — it’s immoral. They take a utilitarian — even sneering attitude towards others whom they see as chumps, feebs, choads, whatever their words are.
There’s a massive cynicism in being present at the debut of the object that destroys the creativity and livlihoods of thousands of people, and not see the damages and the accident going somehere to happen. I could see instantly, even being a non-tekkie, just how devastating it is to go around the system.
It’s like a guy said on the Blog I think, that it’s as if the laws of the country are written by the government, the chief businesses, and the mafias, and they keep rewriting them at their whim, and nobody else gets to say anything or participate. Exactly!
These programmers take a meta attitude toward other people whose lives they effect tremendously. And that’s what I will not stand for. Nothing about us/without us. You cannot do that to people, with no civic oversight because it harms people too greatly. It would be one thing if you discovered a thing that you could see would be damaging and with regret and sadness explained it, and warned people, and helped in its mitigation. But you didn’t. You laughed at their misfortune.
Instead of working to ameliorate it, you’re victory-dancing and arrogantly explaining what idiots everybody is.
With all of you tekkies, one minute it’s the lecture about how there is no real damage from CopyBot — the next minute it’s the homily about how we have to accept the Internet copies everything and we have nothing unique and nothing is safe and we should have known that. Which is it? Well, only the one or the other when convenient to YOU?
How is this possible, for you to adopt this attitude? It is possible because for you SL, is not a world, the Lindens are not a currency, micropayments are for chumps, the creations made are all kitsch or tacky or something you can laugh at, or even if you make, take a self-ironizing attitude toward, but YOUR work, the work ON THE PlATFORM, the work for the company, this is supreme. Your payment is in dollars; your check comes in the snail mail and not in a virtual inbox. Probably cashes a lot faster to. This is the new digital divide, the new class division, and much more, it’s really a clash of civilizations.
If the Lindens knew this all along, they should never have invited millions to this party where we will hit and hit at the pinyata, and nothing will ever come out, because it’s not for us.
I totally reject this nonsense some are peddling now, to the effect that there is only ‘a rogue member’ of the libsecondlife.
Or that a “nonparticipating” member has no relationship to a destructive project like the CopyBot.
It’s like wave after wave of v-5 alts joining libsecondlife over and over and over again. First, it’s just “one rogue member” then it’s “the alt of that one rogue member” then it’s “that rogue member and just a few friends” then it’s 25 people permanently banned from Second Life, many of who were in libsecondlife.
Over and over again. And, what do you say, when there is, oh, I dunno, 47 rogue members and 262 good members? Why…surely there isn’t guilt by association…why, surely you can’t judge a book by its cover blah blah.
But I reject this notion because it’s bullshit. The libsecondlife created an *enabling environment* for a sense of impunity, and even Linden ‘cover,’ for not being subject to the laws of other people. The whole thing is riddled with that arrogant hubris we see with this chat transcript with you in it. Wave after wave of rogue members…and it’s only a few bads eggs? Huh? The group itself is a template for generating new griefers, or alts of old briefers.
I would have been happier to be totally wrong about this story, if I was merely made to look bad and people kept beating me up for spreading “lies” — they already do that anyway — and that would be better for Second Life, if none of these things were true.
But they were. A member of ESC collaboratedly openly in the channel with others who were malicious to plan to harm people and to be gleeful over their misfortune, to celebrate a destructive device. It’s a really malignant spirit, this type of culture in Second Life.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 18th, 2006
Signpost, duh, I know about how the system can automatically show an “inventory received” and be a false positive. Yet every *other* time I’ve written to these same Lindens and sent them notes, they’ve answered. And sending them an IM usually works. No, I can’t buy this is a message capping or false positive syndrome when I write 2 of them, and several times.
>Re: Prok,
I’ve neither mystery surrounding me nor a bone to pick; sorry to hear you took it personally. It’s because of the regularity with which you spread misinformation — as in this case — that you serve as a convenient personification of ignorance.
To echo the other Sheep’s offers, please feel free to contact me in the future before you make such claims. As the only developer at ESC who is a non-contributing member of the libsl project, I would have been happy to answer any questions, dispel your fears, and set you straight on your facts regarding the Sheep’s non-involvement in all libsl development, CopyBot or otherwise.
Christian Westbrook / Christian Prior
The arrogant, nasty, dickheaded manner in which you’ve fobbed of this reply to the confrontation to the Sheep about their staff member’s relationship to libsecondlife shows me — and others — all we need to know.
A believe that I’m ignorant — though I am not. I know as much as the next person, was the first to break the CopyBot story in the SL news media, kept asking the right questions, and now turned up this: ESC *was* involved! You can dance 100 ways around this fact, but now your belligerent and cocky attitude gives it away.
It’s the arrogance and over-confidence of a man who works for a company that has signed an NDA, and feels they have an exclusivity and a specialness that no mere commoner can challenge. I can hardly think of you as someone I’d call, when you display this shitty, arrogant attitude to others, that you know it all, and I’m ignorant.
What was I ignorant of? The truth about you? And Copybot? Now I’m not ignorant anymore…
I haven’t spread misinformation as some kind of pattern of activity; I’d challenge you to find and rebut a single false thing I’ve posted — before the retraction I placed here about an actual exaggeration concerning the Sheep having an apparel client — when they didn’t. Where is it? It’s your IMAGINATION that I do this — because your close friends yammer about me and obsess about me and hate what I write and don’t like my criticism, but where the falsehoods you claim?
And my…aren’t we a long way from saying “the Sheep had nothing whatsoever to do with this and had no involvement in the CopyBot” to having you sneering with the others in the chat channel, mocking me among others, and also being a “noncontributing member” even of Libsecondlife itself!
Wow…just WOW. I kept looking for the name in the list that would fit “CW” but I hadn’t recalled that you RL name was CW. So it’s in fact as the sources said, and worse than I knew. Not only are you a Sheep employee; you are able to talk that same kind of nasty, cynical talk in the channel as Baba did, and take the most malicious attitude to your fellow avatars in Second Life. That’s what it is issue.
Uri, sure, it’s a little incestuous groups of former residents turned Lindens and residents, people who feel they are the “ne plus ultra” of the scripting world, and they pal around together. But we see their culture — it stinks. It’s wrong — it’s immoral. They take a utilitarian — even sneering attitude towards others whom they see as chumps, feebs, choads, whatever their words are.
There’s a massive cynicism in being present at the debut of the object that destroys the creativity and livlihoods of thousands of people, and not see the damages and the accident going somehere to happen. I could see instantly, even being a non-tekkie, just how devastating it is to go around the system.
It’s like a guy said on the Blog I think, that it’s as if the laws of the country are written by the government, the chief businesses, and the mafias, and they keep rewriting them at their whim, and nobody else gets to say anything or participate. Exactly!
These programmers take a meta attitude toward other people whose lives they effect tremendously. And that’s what I will not stand for. Nothing about us/without us. You cannot do that to people, with no civic oversight because it harms people too greatly. It would be one thing if you discovered a thing that you could see would be damaging and with regret and sadness explained it, and warned people, and helped in its mitigation. But you didn’t. You laughed at their misfortune.
Instead of working to ameliorate it, you’re victory-dancing and arrogantly explaining what idiots everybody is.
With all of you tekkies, one minute it’s the lecture about how there is no real damage from CopyBot — the next minute it’s the homily about how we have to accept the Internet copies everything and we have nothing unique and nothing is safe and we should have known that. Which is it? Well, only the one or the other when convenient to YOU?
How is this possible, for you to adopt this attitude? It is possible because for you SL, is not a world, the Lindens are not a currency, micropayments are for chumps, the creations made are all kitsch or tacky or something you can laugh at, or even if you make, take a self-ironizing attitude toward, but YOUR work, the work ON THE PlATFORM, the work for the company, this is supreme. Your payment is in dollars; your check comes in the snail mail and not in a virtual inbox. Probably cashes a lot faster to. This is the new digital divide, the new class division, and much more, it’s really a clash of civilizations.
If the Lindens knew this all along, they should never have invited millions to this party where we will hit and hit at the pinyata, and nothing will ever come out, because it’s not for us.
I totally reject this nonsense some are peddling now, to the effect that there is only ‘a rogue member’ of the libsecondlife.
Or that a “nonparticipating” member has no relationship to a destructive project like the CopyBot.
It’s like wave after wave of v-5 alts joining libsecondlife over and over and over again. First, it’s just “one rogue member” then it’s “the alt of that one rogue member” then it’s “that rogue member and just a few friends” then it’s 25 people permanently banned from Second Life, many of who were in libsecondlife.
Over and over again. And, what do you say, when there is, oh, I dunno, 47 rogue members and 262 good members? Why…surely there isn’t guilt by association…why, surely you can’t judge a book by its cover blah blah.
But I reject this notion because it’s bullshit. The libsecondlife created an *enabling environment* for a sense of impunity, and even Linden ‘cover,’ for not being subject to the laws of other people. The whole thing is riddled with that arrogant hubris we see with this chat transcript with you in it. Wave after wave of rogue members…and it’s only a few bads eggs? Huh? The group itself is a template for generating new griefers, or alts of old briefers.
I would have been happier to be totally wrong about this story, if I was merely made to look bad and people kept beating me up for spreading “lies” — they already do that anyway — and that would be better for Second Life, if none of these things were true.
But they were. A member of ESC collaboratedly openly in the channel with others who were malicious to plan to harm people and to be gleeful over their misfortune, to celebrate a destructive device. It’s a really malignant spirit, this type of culture in Second Life.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 18th, 2006
>As the only developer at ESC who is a non-contributing member of the libsl project, I would have been happy to answer any questions, dispel your fears, and set you straight on your facts regarding the Sheep’s non-involvement in all libsl development, CopyBot or otherwise
Let me put it 100 times simpler: anybody else see the amazing double-talk in this statement?
Why remain a member of a group with grid crashers? Why remain a member if you are not involved? And…in fact doesnt being a member indicate some complicity?
Sativa Prototype
Nov 18th, 2006
“>As the only developer at ESC who is a non-contributing member of the libsl project, I would have been happy to answer any questions, dispel your fears, and set you straight on your facts regarding the Sheep’s non-involvement in all libsl development, CopyBot or otherwise
Let me put it 100 times simpler: anybody else see the amazing double-talk in this statement?”
As the only person here at my keyboard I cannot answer your question because no one is here at the keyboard, thank you for asking.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 18th, 2006
Allana, if you cannot see how v-5, who repeatedly joined libsecondlife in droves, in wave after wave of alts, who flaunted its membership on their profiles and flaunted the Linden connections they got by being in a group approved of Lindens and with Lindens, if you cannot see how these same banned assholes are present in space
Um, Gene Replacement writing stuff like this about me, over and over again, that’s ok?
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=88321&postcount=40
That’s normal? That’s a group you feel appropriate about being in, as Ms. Community Leader?
Sativa Prototype
Nov 18th, 2006
Since you are posting Prokofy I would like to know if you are still writing for this “paper” and if not where we may find you in the future?
Prokofy Neva
Nov 18th, 2006
Here’s a cross post from Aimee Weber, that really deserves a more public examination and rebutal in a context where the amen-corner from the FIC and v-5 can’t drown out the truth:
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=5103&page=11
>More developments in this story (comments):
http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/….html#comments
nimrod Yaffle was apparently Prokofy’s informant, but according to nimrod, he never linked the copybot with Sheep.
BULLSHIT. Read the damn transcript. And btw, there’s another that hasn’t been put up yet, curiously. Nimrod played hard to get, and made me guess it. Is it this? is it that? Is it ESC — and he said it was. When I went back to check AGAIN, he said most unmistakeable, and I have the records “It is a Sheep employee”. And yes, the Sheep employee was in libseconflife, and was in the channel so scornfully talking with the others. Hello? If this isn’t proof, I don’t know what would be.
>I guess until one of them comes up with a transcript, it will be a matter of prok’s word against nimrod’s.
No, because Nimrod already posted transcripts in which he said that he did say it was “an ESC employee”. He pointed to CW. He couldn’t come up with CW’s avatar name. It’s Christian Prior. As we can now see. As he himself admitted. He’s said he was a “non-participatory member” of libseconlife, — whatever that means.
>But if I am following this correctly, here is the timeline of events:
- nimrod Tells Prok about the copybot, but didn’t confirm Sheep involvement.
No, source 1 tells me, and reported ESC involvement accurately. There were ESC members at the debut, whooping it up.
And no, Nimrod identifies CW in the transcript as an ESC employee — and he is.
He said while HE, Nimrod, couldn’t be sure — he was getting it from another, John Hurliman, his source, said emphatically it was ESC. This is all on the record. How is this ‘slander’? It’s confirmed. The only bit that isn’t confirmed, and is retracted, is the business of RL apparel clients. In fact, they don’t have an apparel client as ESC. In fact, what this is, is some separate project with the manequins which is similar to copybot, but separate, etc.
- John Hurliman tells Prokofy it wasn’t sheep.
No, just the opposite Aimee — and I marvel how YOU can lie, mislead, cover up. John Hurliman told Nimrod that a Sheep employee was involved. How was he involved? By being in on the creation of CopyBot from the get-go? No, apparently not. But he is involved before hand, discussing cynically with Baba in that same malicious transcript what they were going to do with this. There is still more of this story to come out. I’m waiting, but Aimee is simply incorrect here.
- Satchmo Prototype tells Prokofy it wasn’t sheep
Satchmo Prototype should never have said the ESC had nothing to do with the creation or production of CopyBot. Because that could only be understood in the literalist, most tekkie-narrow-cast fashion. Involvement is there in spades, however. They discuss the project. CW is as cynical as Baba. They talk about how they will mock others. They cynically talk about me. They are present at the debut. They whoop it up. They act like there are not “fears” — CW’s condescending post to me about how he’d “allay my fears” was just despicable. All of this IS involvement. They get it, they test it, they are involved with libsecondlife, knowing about its destructive powers, and doing nothing!
>- Prok states plainly in the story that it was sheep
Yes, because it was stated plainly to me by three sources that the Sheep were involved in libsecondlife, and that 2 of them were involved in CopyBot. Guess we disagree on what involved and implicated means. Somebody is taking literaly the concept that involvement means only writing the code. i think being there to yak it up and preview it is implication.
>- Prok tells nimrod that he will now expose him as the source of the rumor
By then, Nimrod had already posted here. Furthermore, i wanted him to take responsibility for his words, and not only lead me out to dry. Again, Nimrod says HE isn’t sure it’s ESC that is in libseconflife celebrating the bot but then says John Hurliman can tell – and tell he does!
If nimrod really didn’t point this rumor at sheep, it’s certainly a good cautionary tale.
Indeed he did! I didn’t say “Oh, this must be the sheep.” He implied that it was someone who signed an NDA and he couldnt say. I asked, is it the Lindens? No. I said, is it ESC, because ESC has signed NDAs. Yes.
>If you want to feed Prokofy information, rememeber that he will expose you as the source if HE get’s your story wrong!
I didn’t expose Nimrod as the source. I told him in an inworld IM that I would, because I wanted to make sure that he knew he couldn’t lie in telling this story. He didn’t for the most part.
and guess what, he exposed himself before I could even refresh the page.
Prokofy Neva
Nov 18th, 2006
Also, I think it helps to realize that there’s a world of difference between showing off a novel trick with the client in a controlled manner, and letting the source code leak to the community at large. Did people attending the opening of CopyBot know that someone was selling and distributing? That’s not the message I’ve gotten.
Hiro, this is really REALLY lame, and you know it. CW is shown in the chat transcript, whooping it up with Baba. And what…you’re going to tell me that these Sheep go to the party where everyone is smoking dope, and they never once take the joint and inhale? They are pristinely uninvolved, never distributing?
Sativa Prototype
Nov 18th, 2006
What I find hilarious about all this is that the facts seem to prove that ESC did know about copybot in its early stages, did nothing about it, seemingly agreed with its production by being involved in its release, yet Prokofy is the bad guy.
Is it wrong to single them out? I’m sure others in the community knew about it also and did nothing, but the story led Prokofy to ESC, it is not the reporters fault where the story takes them, its the truth that lies at the end. Is that wrong to report? No, so some people have gotten away with it, but if the community as a whole deems copybot as a threat and then those involved in it should be blamed.
If Aimee seems so nonchalant about this perhaps a tour through her builds with copybot would be ok with her, also snag as many textures as possible seeing as how it seems those that are involved with it are ok, just don’t tell about it.
I see ESC has learned quite alot about pr spin from their good friends at Edelman it seems.
Aimee Weber
Nov 18th, 2006
Well, i’m not against telling. I’m against libel.
Urizenus
Nov 18th, 2006
Aimee, accusing someone of ‘libel’ is ipso facto accusing them of a crime, so you had better have your ducks in order if you are going to persist in that charge, whoever you might be making it against.
Just some friendly advice.
Aimee Weber
Nov 18th, 2006
I agree. Which is why I’m careful never accuse anybody of libel.
I will say saying that if ESC did not have a RL apparel client (a fact that seems relatively easy to verify, you should get the scoop on that!), and if they did not pay for the creation of the copybot, then there is a compelling argument that this article has opened those involved to liability.
So I guess this is the part where I rant and rave about being threatened, intimidated, or bullied by the feted establishment press or some such nonsense. Nah. I will take your advice as genuine and sincere.
Urizenus
Nov 18th, 2006
Just keeping it real, Aimee.
Coyote Momiji
Nov 18th, 2006
Libel is a civil, not a criminal charge.
Lupus Delacroix
Nov 18th, 2006
Wall. Of. Text.
Aimee Weber
Nov 18th, 2006
While the vast majority of libel cases are civil, criminal libel does exist in some states in the U.S. However, it’s largely an antiquity that is rarely evoked and more often than not thrown out of court. I think somebody in the 80′s was jailed for criminal libel, but otherwise it pretty much never happens.
More often then not, “Criminal Libel” is evoked to threaten, intimidate, or bully people who criticize.
Urizenus
Nov 18th, 2006
Libel is a civil offense in the United States, but a criminal offense in some of the countries where we are read and do business. But yes, Coyote, in the United States it would be better to say libel is a totious act, as is a malicious false accusation of libel.
My point in throwing the this back at Aimee is that I have real issues with people that come to this blog and start dropping the L word when they don’t like a story or comment, because it seems their real intent is not to give fair warning but rather to have a kind of chilling effect on the writers and posters here. It really pisses me off. So here is the deal, if you plan on suing someone just fucking sue them. Don’t use your legal saber rattling as a kind of ascii gag on posters here, because I simply won’t have it.
Urizenus
Nov 18th, 2006
*tortious
Aimee Weber
Nov 18th, 2006
Your advice sounds less friendly now
Cindy Claveau
Nov 18th, 2006
>>Don’t use your legal saber rattling as a kind of ascii gag on posters here, because I simply won’t have it.<<
Fair enough. Then maybe the Herald should hold a tighter rein on ‘reporters’ who don’t get all their facts straight and are renowned for concocting loony conspiracy theories. Do that and you’d have more traction for jumping on people who express an opinion.
Topo Gigio
Nov 18th, 2006
Wow, Uri, after a semi retraction and a suspension of Prok’s posting privileges, you are “pissed off” now?
It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. The day IS coming when Prokofy fucks with the wrong person(s), who is either a lawyer or has deep pockets and won’t just look the other way. I would honestly hate to see SLH get caught in the crossfire.
All the crap you’ve allowed him to post here accusing others of crimes, and you get apoloplectic when the tables get turned?
Prokofy is a liability, pull your head out.
Just some friendly advice.
Urizenus
Nov 18th, 2006
I don’t jump on people who express opinions, Cindy. I jump on people who try to discourage people from expressing their opinions. Don’t make me explain perlocutionary acts.
And Aimee, no frowning either! This is a *happy* newspaper.
Urizenus
Nov 18th, 2006
Topo, please, enough with the phoney fucking threats. Why don’t you run out and find someone with deep pockets and ask him to sue us. Maybe you’ll win and you can dock Prok’s salary of $3 per post. If you want to sue me, on the other hand, I suggest you contact the legal affairs office at the University of Michigan.
And Ohio State *still* sucks worse than you do.
Allana Dion
Nov 19th, 2006
Prokofy Neva: ”
Allana, if you cannot see how v-5, who repeatedly joined libsecondlife in droves, in wave after wave of alts, who flaunted its membership on their profiles and flaunted the Linden connections they got by being in a group approved of Lindens and with Lindens, if you cannot see how these same banned assholes are present in space
Um, Gene Replacement writing stuff like this about me, over and over again, that’s ok?
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=88321&postcount=40
That’s normal? That’s a group you feel appropriate about being in, as Ms. Community Leader?
”
Whoa! Take a step back and put the guns away Prok. I wasn’t offering up support of anything or saying anything is ok. You apparently missed the part where I said I thought they should all be disbanded.
I was merely asking you what the connection was because I didn’t know. Until all this copybot stuff came out, I didn’t even know this libsecondlife group existed. And all I know about someone named Gene Replacement is that his name comes up a lot and I think I’ve seen him post a comment here and there. I don’t do background checks on every name I hear but thanks for the link I’ll look it up.
I understand thought that you’re feeling attacked and on the defensive right now Prok, anyone would be. I hadn’t meant to sound as if I was attacking, I was merely asking.
The thing is I can actually believe what you’re saying about libsecondlife being a dangerous group. I really do think the lindens need to be a lot more careful about who they are getting into bed with.
A group with any sort of special privelages like this (and it’s pretty clear this group was being given all sorts of special privelages, actual permission to violate the TOS in fact) should be monitored very closely by the Lindens and most definately should be by invitation only.
As for Second Citizen, it’s like any other forum. You have the normal friendly people who just like to talk about things. You have the jokesters who turn everything into a comedy routine. You have the assholes who hang around just to cause trouble. And in fact most people, just like all walks of life, are actually a combination of all three at different times.
If you were still reading Second Citizen you would have seen that most of the people there, (with a few exceptions just like anywhere else) have been just as pissed off and unnerved by these recent developments as anyone else.
On a personal note, I’m really not sure where you get the “Ms Community Leader” bit. Where the hell did that come from?