Gor Is Not a Cult
by Pixeleen Mistral on 30/11/06 at 9:03 pm
[editor’s note: Our Gorean-theme week continues with a Gorean slave's rebuttal of Artemis Fate's 'Problem's of Gor' series.]
by Tara Reardon
Artemis Fate’s statement regarding Gor being a cult is entirely incorrect. Do you have first hand experience in a cult? Do you understand how they work? My guess is that you don’t quite get it.
I am a Gorean slave on Second Life and submissive in real life. I understand cults very well. I was a Scientologist in the early 1990′s. When I read your article, your points reflected that cult and not Gor. My Gorean experience is healthy. I am surrounded by people who I love deeply and who love me. My cult experience was different. We were in it for a cause, not to forge healthy relationships.
As a Scientologist, I was expected to give up everything important to me personally in order to help the cause. I left my job and went to work for a local Scientology organization for just about no pay. I nearly sacrificed my relationship with my parents. I moved to Hollywood to take classes and was put up in a cockroach infested apartment. I had no money. I was only allowed to eat rice and beans unless my home organization sent money for food. I had no transportation, other than the shoes on my feet. I relied upon the generosity and concern of my family to keep me afloat. But, hey, I was second in command of my local Scientology organization and I was 22 years old and helping to change the world. Or so they led me to believe. I left there after a year, having learned a very valuable lesson.
As a Gorean slave, I am surrounded by people who truly care about my well being. Do my Master or Mistress try to control my real life? No. But they do care about me, beyond my avatar. Does my Master tell me who I can and cannot speak with in Second Life? No, but he does care about my happiness and doesn’t like to see anyone hassle me. Does he take my money? No, he respects that I have my own business in Second Life and encourages me. Are there rules? Of course there are, but they’re all pretty much based on common sense. Am I expected to serve them? Well, yes, but my own desire to serve and please two people I genuinely care about is more of a driving force in that. I have found two people with whom I have forged strong connections. They are integral parts of my life and I care deeply for them. This is unhealthy how?
So tell me… how can you even compare Gor to a cult? I’ve got experience in both. I can guarantee you that Gor done properly is not a cult and it is not dangerous. It can be a wonderfully empowering experience for both Master and slave.
Vivienne Daguerre
Nov 30th, 2006
Well written tara!
Brace
Nov 30th, 2006
Scientology is not a cult
its full of happy shiny people like Tom Cruise and John Travolta.
But seriously
But think on this. Back in the day when the gor was just a buncha mediocre quasi-science-fiction novels. You could actually write letters or email and have communication with the author.
Since then with the uprise of cultish – if you will – gorean enclaves all over the net, you can’t hardly reach dude.
Two years ago – at a local BDSM even RL – I met the woman who illustrated those slave poses that are popular with goreans (you know the rubenesque naked girl colored pencil ones) and we had a little talk.
She expressed the dismay that I’m sure Norman has felt, at the rabid response to her art when it got absorbed by gor fans.
that being said, cult or not cult – its all in our own personal experiences and behaviors. The word “cult” itself may or may not have negative connotations depending on its juxtaposition.
“That cult movie rocky horror”
has more of a positive connotation for example.
Gor is whatever it is
Scientology is whatever it is
Depending on your own personal experiences and observations.
IMO I think SL is damn cult. All these addictive personalities being fed and fed and fed.
Whatever. I’m bored so I thot I’d write somethin.
Artemis Fate
Nov 30th, 2006
First off, it should be noted that in both my notecard and my comments, I have yet to say outright “Gor is a cult” (as far as I know), i’ve stated that gor uses CULT-LIKE techniques, and is something of a semi-cult, all the ingredients but none of the cohesion.
That being said, as I look over your response, I really fail to see any rationale for gor not being a cult, all you say, and forgive me if i’m off here, is that it’s not a cult because they love me and care for me.
Now, I could be wrong here, but it’s to my understanding that “they love me and they care for me” is a common response in an intervention of someone in a cult. That’s, really, the point of a cult after all, to bring a person to a point where they will blindly say “they love me and they care for me” no matter what they say or do. Don’t get me wrong, i’m not necessarily saying you’re blindly repeating this without thought, however, I might think that while you were in Scientology, you were probably known to state “they love me and they care for me” or something akin to that to people who queried on why you were in such horrid conditions, or else you would have left scientology and gotten out of those conditions I can imagine.
This is why I was hoping i’d have some more comments on the other side from non-goreans, since obviously if i’m even accusing goreans of being cult-LIKE, then it’s somewhat expected that all goreans who are under an influence of being gorean, will automatically disagree based on emotional values.
So far, in terms of detractors, all i’ve heard from were goreans.
Tomas Hausdorff
Dec 1st, 2006
Artemis, I see your quest for detractors to your point of view who are not Goreans. But doesn’t that sort of establish a Catch 22?
I’m not a Gorean. I’ve heard a bit about it, read your articles, but I have no desire to put on a collar or be a master. Since I am not and never have been a Gorean, I can’t reasonably agree with or refute your position. All I can really do in good conscience is talk hypothetically.
When a particular philosophy of life is described in a structured fashion and has any significant number of public adherents there exists the potential for it to become a “cult”. There are zealots who beat themselves with sticks, starve themselves, divest all their worldly goods to the organization, and isolate themselves from all external influences: we call them Roman Catholic Monks. Yet many consider their lifestyle to be acceptable, if not laudable.
As you noted, Artemis, a cult is founded around a charismatic leader. Frankly, that leader *is* the cult, not the “beliefs” that leader subscribes to. They could pick up any perfectly laudable and even beautiful belief system, and screw it around into a mechanism to control their followers- they don’t need Gorean beliefs, and frankly Gor is probably too obvious for most cult figures. I don’t think Goreans are a cult, nor do they have any more of the “features” of a cult than, say, any number of perfectly accepted political and religious organizations.
As a real lifestyle, I find the premise of considering anyone, woman, man, black, white, or what have you, to be “born” to slavery abhorrant. I consider the “man as natural master, woman as slave” perspective of the Gor books to be simplistic and juvenile. Perhaps they are very well written: I haven’t found a particular desire to read them myself. However, it’s not a whole lot different from the right wing evangelist “Women should be in the home raising children, men should be working and making decisions” crap that is currently in vogue.
However, if someone finds happiness by willingly submitting to another, and if that someone always has the freedom (a difficult thing to measure) to walk out…well, I don’t understand it, but I don’t judge it either. Certainly, someone who chooses to roleplay such submission for a few hours each day isn’t worth getting upset about: roleplay is all about exploring other ways of thinking, and with a healthy mind it is a valuable thing.
Nacon
Dec 1st, 2006
50% cult, 50% crap
or
100% cult, 0% crap
or
0% cult, 100% crap?
which is it? …whatever, it’s stupid anyway.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 1st, 2006
Thanks for providing yet more documentation than Gor is a cult! Couldn’t be better!
Oh, and you, too, Tomas! *Your* cult of the hard left has done far more mass murderous activities in RL than monks in the Roman Catholic Church. But then, I’d hardly expect you to admit that as you are under the influence. I hope they love you there.
Tara Reardon
Dec 1st, 2006
Prokofy,
Explain to me how I proved that Gor is a cult? Did you even take a moment to *read* my piece? Please go to the following URL and respond *after* you’ve read it, darling. http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2006/11/gor_is_not_a_cu.html
And, frankly, I wonder how you can stand on your soapbox and say that you are more qualified to make the determination than someone who has actually been down both avenues, when you’ve obviously traveled neither.
Now, go write about something you know about, hon.
sparrowhawk perhaps
Dec 1st, 2006
thank you, Tara.
Gor is a culture, not a cult.
the same rules applied by artemis and prok to gor
would serve to prove that IBM and Oracle are cults, too.
Draco Zhukovsky
Dec 1st, 2006
As usual, Prokofy Neva spouts off inanities without actually reading what anyone really says. Either that or his(her?) ability to only see what s/he wants to see is truly amazing. I can almost see Prok reading —
“‘”My Gorean … (skips a few lines) cult experience… (skips more then reads all the stuff on Scientology, instead calling it Gor in his/her mind)…’
Aha! She’s making my point for me!
(continues reading Tomas’ statements) ‘I’m… Gorean… (skips the rest)’
More Gorean stuff! Woohoo!”
It’s almost like Prok is wearing blinders… or suffering from willful ignorant stupidity… The Jury’s still out on that one.
Tomas Hausdorff
Dec 1st, 2006
Draco, you are simply not understanding the truth. Anyone who disagrees with Prokofy on any point, regardless of how subtle, is automatically an idiot and is by definition incapable of rational thought. The only truth begins and ends with Prokofy. All else is at best misguided and at worst evil incarnate.
There is no need to actually read what a person has to say once it is confirmed that they disagree with Prokofy in any way. To do so would be to cloud one’s mind with useless reasoning and irrational opinions contrary to the opinions of Prokofy. Since I have fouled his vision with my stupidity by taking an opinion contrary to the doctrine according to Prokofy, I must suffer his rightous wrath.
Artemis Fate
Dec 1st, 2006
“Artemis, I see your quest for detractors to your point of view who are not Goreans. But doesn’t that sort of establish a Catch 22?”
You’re quite right there and I shouldn’t have pushed that point so much, and I can’t now anyways because I have some well-argued critisms without emotional bias coming in from non-goreans.
“When a particular philosophy of life is described in a structured fashion and has any significant number of public adherents there exists the potential for it to become a “cult”.”
I suppose what is necessary and something I more or less skimmed over in the notecard, is a definition of the word “cult”.
CULT – Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from.
Source: http://www.religio.de/cudef.html
That’s something I picked up off a google real quick, which I think is a fairly good definition. What gor definately offers in terms of this and mentions in the book quite consistantly, is that the gorean lifestyle is the way to happiness and on earth all the men and women are unhappy because they are not enslaving one another. The goreans also have an authoritarian leader structure following the books with ubars and guards and first swords, second swords, the only thing they lack there is a LARGE authoritarian leadership structure, since the cohesion pretty much ends locally insted of expanding out on a large scale.
Now I disagree when you say that the leader of the cult makes the cult entirely, I think their beliefs are the most important thing for it’s foundation, and the charismatic leader is just important for moving it along. Certainly we have plenty of John Norman’s beliefs spewed out over 26 novels (more and more so after each passing novel). Of course, if we refer to Christianity at the very least in it’s early days as a cult (which it could be very easily considered one), they operated just fine without Jesus.
“However, if someone finds happiness by willingly submitting to another, and if that someone always has the freedom (a difficult thing to measure) to walk out…well, I don’t understand it, but I don’t judge it either.”
I agree with this, however I note that if it’s just a matter of submitting to another, why not just go to D/s (something I DO consider a lifestyle choice), D/s is very open ended and can be fine-tuned to whatever specifications the slave might like. Although it’s interesting to note that D/s types seem to be one of the largest haters of Gor (infact, the anti-gor group is mostly D/s types, who even have slaves that use “this girl” and such in their profile), often calling the techniques of submitting harmful compared to theirs which promote understanding between the two on what each of them do and don’t like and that they want to make sure they’re both getting the amount of pleasure they were looking for out of the relationship. This while gorean slaves are taught that they are nothing, their pleasure is nothing, and that they live only to serve men and must think about any man over themselves first and foremost.
I’d like to restate that I don’t think ALL goreans are this way, and that gor can be practiced safely and respectfully if a person is able to characterize the differences between reality and Gor and recognize it as roleplay not a lifestyle. Thus “the slave must always be pleasing to a man and care nothing for herself” won’t be an iron law of philosophical truth, but a roleplay cover in which to establish a world better.
Tomas Hausdorff
Dec 1st, 2006
Yes…good point, Artemis, with the “roleplay versus lifestyle” distinction. I have a hard time accepting a “real life” (non roleplay) system where one person is “naturally” superior to another due to their gender, skin colour, or religious beliefs. To put it more strongly, I find such a belief system to be morally repugnant.
But my personal belief in an individual’s right to live their life as they wish so long as they do no harm to others takes a wrong turn when that individual chooses to “submit” their rights to another. How can I be really sure that they are making this “choice” willingly? When there are obvious symptoms of coercion, then the choice presumably isn’t made freely. But some people it seems like being dominated, even to the point of physical pain: how is this quickly and easily distinguished from someone who has been “brainwashed”?
Answer: it isn’t. If a person says “I’m happy doing this, it makes me feel good, I feel fulfilled and joyous”…I can disagree with the way they live their life, but until they are obviously being harmed, how can I judge them? And setting aside Gor, there are any number of “modern” lifestyles wherein the woman plays the submissive role in real life: cooking, cleaning, caring for the children, and overall deferring to the man. My immediate assumption is that the woman in such a situation must not know any better, or has been “brainwashed”, or perhaps is mentally defective. But I’d be arrested if I interfered with her “happy home”, and probably rightfully so.
Netting it out: my belief is that Gor as a whole isn’t a “cult”. Individual Gorean “couples” and groups can be healthy or unhealthy, just like other groups that practice “alternate” lifestyles. But the more that someone believes in Gorean principles as “fact” as opposed to a convenient framework for roleplay, the more I have to assume there is something broken in the way they are thinking.
Thus far, I’ve met a couple of folks who claim to be Gorean, and those I’ve met have been “playing”, whether in real life or in Second Life. I don’t doubt for a moment that there are some for whom it isn’t play at all, though. But people don’t need Gor to justify their abusive behavior: I suspect that very few of the people charged with spousal abuse would claim to be Goreans.
marilyn murphy
Dec 1st, 2006
ahem.
i am no fan of the gores. just so you know. there are two points that make them seem rather distasteful to me.
first. this practice of making new people who they collar post that u cannot talk to them but to the master only, and they cant have any friends unless master approves seems rather reprehensible. would like to see some sort of age limit on that kind of thing, like let them at least spend a month in sl and then see if they want to live like that here at least. that alone is very cult like in this controlling who your able to talk to thing.
second: ha ha, i bet some gorean reading my first point was saying to themself, well yes that is done but those people arent really practicing true gorean principles. if you scratch any gorean about another gorean eventually they will say something along the lines of, well they dont really practice gore correctly. my group does but their group has lost its way. hmmm. so some new person who is collared by a supposed gorean master, is probably being collared by someone who another gorean will tell you is doing it all wrong. hows a person supposed to know who is doing it right? if so many are doing it wrong, then how can we even decide what gore tradition is?
my 1 and 1/2 cents.
Random Writer
Dec 1st, 2006
“”"”And setting aside Gor, there are any number of “modern” lifestyles wherein the woman plays the submissive role in real life: cooking, cleaning, caring for the children, and overall deferring to the man.”"”"
That’s not modern, that’s 1950′s. And you’d be wrong in your assumption. Some women love to do these things. I’m one of them. Well, except the dishes. But I’m also not told when to do them, how to do them, or where I can do them.
Random Writer
Dec 1st, 2006
P.S. And who I’m doing them for. If I want to cook for neighbor Suzy, I can.
Tomas Hausdorff
Dec 1st, 2006
Random Writer, I’m not disagreeing with you at all. The “woman as man’s servant” mindset is old, but it’s also “new”- there are several groups out there that strongly advocate the deferential, submissive wife as being the “true and proper” role for a modern woman, and all this equal rights and feminism stuff has just been a huge mistake. And they certainly aren’t Goreans
Certainly, it isn’t fair or reasonable of me to be derogatory towards someone, man or woman, who choses to take on household tasks and who loves that part of their life- if I came across as if I was saying that, I apologize. My point was referring to those people who willingly choose to be “commanded” and to defer to others. It isn’t the task itself, but why the task is performed- if that makes sense.
As for my assumption- one of my main points is that it is very hard to know what if anything to assume. A woman who enjoys deferring to her husband, cooking and cleaning at his behest, living under his royal decree…I find that hard to stomach. But some women claim they are happy this way, and that they love it. Some of them undoubtedly are part of the groups I’ve referred to above, and advocate this lifestyle for others. Am I right to call them wrong?
I may not agree with them, I may find their advocacy for a subservient lifestyle based purely on gender distressing, but I can’t tell them that their personal sense of happiness is “wrong”.
Random Writer
Dec 1st, 2006
Ah, but there is a strong difference in being brainwashed into a way of thinking as opposed to what initially feels natural.
For me, taking care of my home is what makes me happy and natural. It’s quite possible if I read all the feminist principles out there, my stance would change.
But then again, being a psycho killer could feel natural and it doesn’t make it right.
Imma start a cult… the anti-societal society!
Miles Sullivan
Dec 1st, 2006
Tara uses a very narrow definition of a cult, she thinks that Scientology is the end-all, be-all definition of a cult and there are no degrees, no other types. I will be the first to say her experience with Scientology is unfortunate, but it also belies a “cultish” personality, having that propensity to fall into cults.
Gor, like the vast majority of other organized groups, is a cult plain and simple. I had a cultish experience with an organization called The Jayees, or Junior Chamber of Commerce. They used many of the same tactics as Gor, as Scientology, as the Branch Davidians… the 7 points as shown in the root article. Though their hearts were in the right place, though they did not do any of the horrible things Scientology does, they still utilized cult tactics to get what they wanted out of their members. Fortunately for me and the 10,000 other members of the organization, it left me a better person and not embittered and defensive.
Those of you who belong to fraternal organizations (i.e Jaycees, Lions, Rotary, Masons) will no doubt agree.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) defines cult as…
–noun
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
–snip–
I believe 2, 4 and especially 5 fit here (hmmm does 5 also sound like the above fraternal organizations??). Some extremists could argue #6, but thats outside the scope of this post. This is not a discussion of the inherent rightness or wrongness of Gor, I will be the first to say it’s a beautiful place, filled with (mostly) good people, keen ROLEPLAYERS and can be alot of fun.
When this goes beyond roleplay, when people begin to believe they are RL Goreans, they have joined the ranks of that woman who wore her Starfleet uniform to jury duty. When it begins to affect RL and people begin to do things unlawful or immoral, is when it goes too far.
Random Writer
Dec 1st, 2006
“”"”Tara uses a very narrow definition of a cult, she thinks that Scientology is the end-all, be-all definition of a cult and there are no degrees, no other types. I will be the first to say her experience with Scientology is unfortunate, but it also belies a “cultish” personality, having that propensity to fall into cults. “”"”
Interesting and estute point Miles.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 1st, 2006
In this thread, it’s pointless to argue against Goreans, because being in a cult, they’ll deny it. They’ve already honed a handbook of answers to questions and criticisms that they spout like automatons — like the thing about the 1950s and women’s supposedly subservient roles — which of course were nothing like Gor, since they put on aprons and waxed floors, they didn’t get their necks jerked on chains and have to have spikes put in their flesh.
And it’s pointless to argue against blowhards like Tomas, who, like any good hard leftist, is always going to try to rescue totalitarian cults by saying either the people had unhappy childhoods or else they are really only part of the gorgeous mosaic.
So that leaves people sparrowhawk who are in the morally equivalency gang. And that one’s easy to refute. Last time I talk to my friends who work at IBM or Oracle, their bosses were not only letting them go to the bathroom on demand, they weren’t making them kneel before them like dogs.
Cult of Prokofy
Dec 2nd, 2006
Why do I get the feeling the biggest sorrow Prokofy Neva has ever felt is over the fact everyone rejects the creation of a cult around himself? Getting banned from the forums cock blocked your way to immortality?
Artemis Fate
Dec 2nd, 2006
Very interesting points Miles, i’d like to respond to this however:
“Gor, like the vast majority of other organized groups”
As has been stated before, I don’t think Gor qualifies as a full blown cult (almost something of the little cult that couldn’t), because of that part right there exactly: “organized groups” a concept that gor tends to greatly lack. Even in Second Life Gor is segmented into sub-groups, on a wider scale who knows how many splinters there are. Because, I think, there was no charismatic leader to hold it together, Gor spread into tiny groups that developed their own rules and sanctions off of the gorean model.
I do agree that Tara saying because she was a scientologist, and scientologists acted a certain way, and goreans don’t act that way, than goreans are not a cult, is not a totally logical conclusion to arrive at.
Draco Zhukovsky
Dec 2nd, 2006
“So that leaves people sparrowhawk who are in the morally equivalency gang. And that one’s easy to refute. Last time I talk to my friends who work at IBM or Oracle, their bosses were not only letting them go to the bathroom on demand, they weren’t making them kneel before them like dogs.”
No, but in the corporate world, you do have to kiss your boss’s ass (pay reverence), follow a strict set of rules and guidelines (Standards of Conduct), and you’re dependent on the bosses for paying your way (weekly/bi-weekly/monthly paycheck). And now, in this day and age of lawsuits, you have to work in constant fear that something you say may be misconstrued as sexual harassment.
Hence why many corporate workers are referred to as “wage slaves.”
Nice try Prok, but…. *buzz* you fail!
Ace Albion
Dec 2nd, 2006
Of course, IBM don’t (at least officially) hamstring you, feed you to urts or punch you in the mouth for disobedience, which are the gorean ways of dealing with uppity slaves. Still, when it’s roleplayed only nobody gets hurt, right?
Gospatrick Oxbar
Dec 2nd, 2006
I read Miles’ comments, not with interest, but with astonishment. They read more like a personal attack on the author of the article; “I will be the first to say her experience with Scientology is unfortunate, but it also belies a “cultish” personality, having that propensity to fall into cults. ” for example. I find it strange that someone who is a memeber of a Gorean group in Second Life could dismiss someone elses interest in the same thing as evidence of a “cultish personality”, other than as a personal attack.
Miles also strongly implies that Gor is seen as a religion :”…..5. Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
…………….I believe 2, 4 and especially 5 fit here (hmmm does 5 also sound like the above fraternal organizations??).” the use of the word sacred strongly relates to religion. I know of no true Goreans who actively worship the Priest kings, nor of any actove “Church of Gor”. However, the following do seem to apply, at least to those who intelligently read the Gor books, and to whom the ideals and philosophies appeal; “2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. …….4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. “. I believe that certain ideal upheld in Gor, such as Honour, Integrity and Respect are very much to be admired, and very much fit in with my world view.
There are certain othe issues raised by other writers that feel to me like scaremongering: several people, Artemis included , refer to a practice of forbidding slaves to have any contact with others than their Master without their master’s consent. I have seen this mentioned on peoples profiles, but only in very isolated cases, I think a total of two cases, out of the over 100 Gorean slaves I have come across in SL. This to me says more about their masters than about Gor itself. It seems to be a reflection for a desire for total control of another person, and will crop anywhere, not just in Gor, bullies arent just confined to the playground.
Artemis Fate
Dec 2nd, 2006
Gospatrick, I think you’re misconstrueing the meaning of sacred since it’s not an exclusively religious word. Definition 5 of Sacred at answers.com is “Worthy of respect; venerable” (http://www.answers.com/topic/sacred), and i’ve heard it in use without religious context in terms of tradition. When he refers to goreans having a sacred ideology, it’s the gorean philosophy of the collar and that woman is destined to be slaved by man which is something they both desire.
I’d like to bring up something else you said as well:
“I believe that certain ideal upheld in Gor, such as Honour, Integrity and Respect are very much to be admired, and very much fit in with my world view.”
Now I always found it interesting how Goreans spout how much they value honor and respect, but at the same time live in a slave society based around war. Now it should be noted that honor and respect, by definition, mean just about the same thing (definition 1 of honor is “high respect”) which just adds to my theory that Goreans really don’t understand fully what honor really means. Goreans just read it in the books and hear it on “warrior’s codes” and think it sounds really cool and good but don’t have a concept of what it is, just that they want to be it. For example, i’d say about 100% of battles i’ve seen of gor men, were dishonorable, where the fighter would disrespect his opponent by trying to get an uneven fight, or would use tricky tactics like running away while shooting arrows (something I believe is outright called dishonorable in Priestkings of Gor, shooting a bow that is, but is one of the most popular weapons in Gor). I’ve seen Gor men lose and get their opponents banned and pretend like it didn’t happen. Basically, the concern is not to fight but to win, so (I can only imagine) not to lose face in front of friends and the slaves as the manly man. It sounds all rather silly and inconsequential, but i’m just pointing out that in a place where you can hear the word “honor” said at probably a rate of once every 3 minutes, there’s very little to be found.
So i’m curious then, exactly which parts of Gor society (book or online) uphold ideals of honor or high respect. Obviously nothing to do with slavery since the definition of respect clearly doesn’t involve beating a person until they submit and then enslaving them. What i’m trying to get at is, besides gorean philosophy naming itself honorable at every chance it gets, what exactly is honorable about Gor?
Mikal Snakeankle
Dec 2nd, 2006
Gor a cult? Is Christianity a cult? They certainly spout off..believe in Christ, be born again or go to hell and fry for all eternity! Hmm…cult? How many people have died in the name of “educating the masses for Christ”? How many have died for Islam? For Buddha? etc. Are all of those cults?
They certainly have those markings that you all keep showing. Believe our way or enternal damnation. Our way is the right way!
Guess what? I’m Gorean and I don’t believe that Gor is the end all be all for everyone in the world. I don’t believe that if you are not Gorean you won’t be happy. I don’t believe that if you don’t “follow the books of Gor” you won’t be happy and live a fulfilled life. Nor do most of the Goreans that I happen to know.
I do know that most Christians I know push their beliefs off on me. I’m not Christian. I was raised Christian, but I have chosen to follow in my ancestors beliefs. My native heritage. The old way. I am happy with my life choice. And yet, those Christians think I will be happier if I follow their testaments…their books..and worship their God.
So many other groups, religious and otherwise that practice a lot of the same things, yet they aren’t called a cult, they are called lifestyles, or religions. Islam, Christianity to name two. They get that “noble” name because why? Both groups enslaved. Both groups follow a book and laws created from those books.
Now, before anyone gets their shorts in a knot, I’m not attempting to say that Gor is a religion by any means. I am just using those as examples.
Before you judge a group of people as all being bad, or the group as being completely “wrong”, get to KNOW some of the people. You just might find that you have something in common with us. We are parents. We work in various different fields. We aren’t that much different from you. But remember this saying. You can’t judge a book by it’s cover. That saying holds true for groups and people. Don’t judge me by the actions of another. Judge me by MY actions and MY actions alone.
As far as what you have said Miles, I find it amusing to an extent. You belong to Gorean groups you were planning on opening a Gorean sim. You use knowledge from a former, bitterly ended relationship to attempt to hurt them later. Such bitterness being aimed at such a sweet girl. Grow up and be a man or at least be a good person and end the personal attacks.
Mikal Snakeankle
Gospatrick Oxbar
Dec 2nd, 2006
Artemis, i agree with you that honour and respect are part and parcle of the same thing. However, you seem to think that this are absent in any sort of state of war, or of fighting in general. It is perfectly possible to fight to win, using “tricky tactics”, and still respect and honour a brave opponent. This holds as true in the real world, as it does in Gor; “There was often admiration at the way the enemy fought. When Norman Gladden’s comrades moved past a dead german, larga and fully accoutred,who had been killed making a single handed stand in an advanced post, a murmur of approbation went down the file, not, for once for the death of an enemy but in admiration of a brave man’. ” (Gladden, Ypres 1917 p66; cited in ‘Tommy; the British soldier on the Western Front 1914-1918′ Holmes R. 2005 HarperPerennial)
As for your denial of the relationship with “sacred” and religion; I agree that it is possible that the two are unconnected, but you used a very linited amount of the definition you quoted:Dedicated to or set apart for the worship of a deity.
Worthy of religious veneration: the sacred teachings of the Buddha.
Made or declared holy: sacred bread and wine.
Dedicated or devoted exclusively to a single use, purpose, or person: sacred to the memory of her sister; a private office sacred to the President.
Worthy of respect; venerable.
Of or relating to religious objects, rites, or practices.
as you can see the majority of the definition you used relates to religion, so I can be allowed to assumethe connection between the two, just as you are able to assume you know the meaning behind Mile’s non specifc words.
Random Writer
Dec 2nd, 2006
To Gospatrick:
“”"”I read Miles’ comments, not with interest, but with astonishment. They read more like a personal attack on the author of the article; “I will be the first to say her experience with Scientology is unfortunate, but it also belies a “cultish” personality, having that propensity to fall into cults. ” for example. I find it strange that someone who is a memeber of a Gorean group in Second Life could dismiss someone elses interest in the same thing as evidence of a “cultish personality”, other than as a personal attack.”"”"
I think you misconstrued his statement or didn’t understand it. He wasn’t saying that everyone strictly in Gor has the propensity, he’s speaking of the poster for having a tendency to embrace cult and/or cult like phenoms. And frankly, with current psychological studies, people do have tendancies to repeat. It’s not a personal attack but an educated assumption.
Therefore, it makes the statements hard to believe in full.
If I said I was in 4 totally different cults that have nothing to do with one another, and I was in one that is accused of being cult like and I’m trying to defend it against not being one, my statements would largely be skewed by the tendency I have to be drawn to cults, think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread, then say my current ‘organization’ is NOT a cult because it wasn’t like the others.
That’s like me saying ‘smoking cigarettes does NOT have a detrimental effect on my body’. Realize it does, then pick up marijuana. Then realize cigars do too. So when I’m sitting here smoking cigars telling you I know what does and doesn’t do my body bad and say Cigars are safe… what do you think?
Tara Reardon
Dec 2nd, 2006
Random Writer, I think it’s time I clarify something for your benefit as well as the rest of the readers. Miles is not speaking in generalities. He is my RL ex-boyfriend. We went through a bitter breakup and his statements here mount to a lame attempt at a personal attack on me. He knows the intricacies of what I went through and his attempt to use information gained through an intimate relationship is nothing less than shameful.
Funny thing – I’d have never met my Master or Mistress if he hadn’t introduced me to them.
To say I have cultish tendencies because I spent time on 20 years ago is a bit silly, don’t you think?
Glimmer Stardust
Dec 2nd, 2006
Frankly, the kinds of Masters who so strictly enforce things like no talking, etc., reek of BDSM rather than gor, as that is a constant “slave-training” technique in places like Bondage.com and others. So, these BDSMers switch to Gor and carry old habits with them… Just not right to blame goreans for that one. Also, Gor, like any group, is a microcosm of real society. There will be a cross-section of all kinds of people, the good, the bad, and the ugly, in it just like there are on earth.
Random Writer
Dec 2nd, 2006
Tara, YOU were the one who mentioned that you were in Scientology. Miles just pointed out a connection. Just because he may be bitter, doesn’t make what he says less of a comment. I’m not dumb enough to go off someone’s word of the type of person another is, but I am smart enough to see when a real connection has been made. If I had taken pains to think it through to a T, I probably could have garnered that idea myself.
Besides, we are all faces behind a screen. I couldn’t be sure you are you, or that a sympathizer isn’t the same person. So I defintely only go off words written. While you condemn him for ‘personal attacks’, are you in a roundabout way doing the same thing? Either way, you’ve somewhat admitted at least some of what he says is true because he’s using your and his personal relationship to glean comments. Hell, one could even argue, since you’ve said that his information was gotten from your time together, he’d be the one to speak on the subject. Unfortunately, when you put yourself out there as you did in this article, you are gonna be subject to everyone making comments. But that doesn’t mean that whomever comments doesn’t have a valid statement just because it’s you who wrote it and you’ve known each other in other terms.
Frankly, all he said in relation to you directly was about the vulnerability exposed, which as I said, some others may or may not have come to that conclusion already, he just made the connection vocal. The rest of his entire post has nothing to do with you specifically. He didn’t reveal anything about you intimately or otherwise.
Aside from that, it wasn’t 20 years ago. It was 10-15. Is it relevant? Probably not, but it could be considering that cuts the time down considerably between it all.
Brace
Dec 3rd, 2006
Glimmer.
Gor fits under the heading of BDSM. Norman drew from that lifestyle to fill out his codes or whatever.
As on the net and pretty much anywhere, people pick and chose what they want, and/or what works for them.
I always find it amusing when there’s all this factioning and “us against them” stuff that crops up between people that practice different aspects of the same damn thing.
There’s no “carrying old habits” and whatsnot going on. Norman didn’t pull the ideas of bondage, slavery, rules of conduct for slaves/masters etc out his ass or thin air.
There was already a large body of information, codes, practises etc for him to draw from, and he did just that.
(As I said in my earlier post, back when you could contact the author I did just that for an article I was writing on BDSM subsets, – D/s M/s S&M et – and wanted background on gor)
Also interesting to note, that a lot of the behaviours one sees in online gor environments is nowhere to be found in the books themselves…
one prime example is the so-called slave speech “this girl” etc
Cat Amongst The Pigeons
Have fun kiddies!
Random Writer
Dec 3rd, 2006
That’s an interesting site Brace, but be prepared… the most common answer to arguing that… That’s not how it is for all of us. (Ya think, that’s why it mentioned that none who consider themselves Gorean can agree on what Gorean really is!)
I have an idea….
Artemis Fate
Dec 3rd, 2006
Mikal:
Christianity (and indeed most organized religion) is a lot like Gorean in this sense, since there are large groups in both that aren’t entirely serious about it and are harmless with it. But they both have large subgenres of extremists who have certain cult-like ideals and philosophies.
Gospatrick:
I can see what you’re getting at, but I don’t think honor in war as it’s conventionally described is possible without a series of even 1 on 1 matches. Modern warfare and indeed just about all warfare in history has been based around doing whatever it takes to win, using whatever advantage you have and disadvantage they have and exploiting it to come out on top, which is obviously fine because you can’t expect the opponent to have the same sense of honor, and in war it’s not a matter of saving face, it’s a matter of surviving. For example, by definition, I would describe British fighting tactics in the Revolutionary war and before as honorable, lining up in rows with muskets and firing into others who had lined up in rows, they’re both evening the field for each other and not trying to trick each other, it’s silly but I suppose honorable. However, America won the revolutionary war, largely in part to us exploiting the weakness of the honor, they lined up in rows, we used guerilla tactics.
What you say about Sacred is true, however as I see it, cult as a word is a form of the word “religion” just smaller and less standardized. Also religions seem to be developed around the concept of “god” or a higher power only, whereas cults can worship a wide range of topics and ideals, without necessarily even having a god character. That’s why you can have a sex cult, but not a sex religion.
Brace:
That’s a really nice introspective look into Gor society in that website, where’d you get that?
Tara Reardon
Dec 7th, 2006
Just one final post…
I do NOT believe that Scientology is the only type of cult. There are quite obviously many others of various types and degrees. Miles should not have responded to my article (and he should have faded away into the woodwork), since he himself told me not to have any contact with him for perpetuity. He used this venue to attempt to reinflame a situation because here, he is protected from the SL Terms of Service and Community Standards.
Secondly, I have done significant research on cults. Obviously, it was an issue that close to home at one point in my life. And of course Scientology is going to be my basis for understanding cults, since it’s the only one I’ve ever been in. If the only car I ever drove was a Honda, my understanding of cars would be based on Hondas, most likely. Our knowledge of anything in life comes largely from our experiences.
Brace
Dec 8th, 2006
Random: Ain’t worried a lick what all the gors hafta say
Artemis: That site was passed around by some folks that were sickandtired of the gors in Active Worlds, dunno like couple two three years ago.
(now they’re all here lmao!)
tara reardon
Dec 13th, 2006
Brace,
Most Goreans don’t really care and don’t judge whatever your lifestyle is. Why do you take it upon yourself to judge ours? Perhaps you could learn a litle from us if you cast aside your prejudice and really take an insightful look.
Oh, and we’re not called “The Gors”. That sounds like an 80′s band. We are Gorean and we are proud.
-tara
Artemis Fate
Dec 13th, 2006
As i’ve stated before, gor has more in common with a religion (or cult) then it does with a lifestyle. I really don’t buy gor as a lifestyle as much as i’d buy star trek as a lifestyle. If some guy came up saying “I’m a real (true) cadet of the U.S.S enterprise!” You wouldn’t slowly applaud and say “be proud of your lifestyle!” you’d probably wonder what was wrong with them. Especially if their “lifestyle” branched out to something like 50 sims, involved some form of glorified brutality under the thin guise of honor and beauty, and they became ethnocentric to their own way of thinking and started looking down on all the poor “vanillas” who just haven’t learned the true way of the Captain yet.
And speaking of prejudice on real lifestyles, what’s with goreans and gay men? I’ve talked to a few gorean gay Master/slave couples and they always tell me how they’re sometimes kicked out of cities on the spot or are denied the same rights of other citizens.
tara reardon
Dec 14th, 2006
Artemis, I suppose you don’t buy BDSM as a valid lifestyle either. I know gay Goreans. Personally speaking, I have never seen that kind of prejudice in Gor.
So, Artemis, darling… what do you consider your lifestyle? I’ll consider writing a series about how ridiculous I think it is.
You need to understand one thing, sweetie. Your opinion regarding Gor is just that – YOUR opinion. You’re entitled, but I’m entitled to live the lifestyle I’ve chosen, and without prejudice.
The sad thing is that once Gor falls off your radar, you’ll most likely find some other group distasteful.
Here’s what I would really like to know. This is truly the crux of the situation.
1. What have Goreans done to you personally? I’m not talking about things you may have seen involving others. Again, what have Goreans done to you personally?
2. Did you speak up at the time and try to address the issue, like a mature, rational adult would do?
Would love to know what PERSONAL experience prompted you to write this.
Artemis Fate
Dec 14th, 2006
“Artemis, I suppose you don’t buy BDSM as a valid lifestyle either. I know gay Goreans. Personally speaking, I have never seen that kind of prejudice in Gor.”
I do consider BDSM to be a lifestyle, infact I addressed why I thought BDSM was a lifestyle and Gor wasn’t in the notecard
I haven’t seen that kind of prejudice in gor either, i’m just relaying what was told to me from a gay gorean couple, who would likely know more about the reactions of straight goreans to gay goreans more than both of us.
To quote:
“A lifestyle, in definition is based on a multiple series of writing from multiple authors, dictating some sort of way of living. Thus something like D/s may be considered a lifestyle because it’s a concept based in no particular world and no particular one creator. Gor however, is based entirely on one series of books, by one author, as D/s it could be considered an extreme version of such, however, once you include gorean culture, gorean philosophy, and gorean writings as tomes of knowledge, you now have crossed the line past lifestyle and more into cult.”
“You need to understand one thing, sweetie. Your opinion regarding Gor is just that – YOUR opinion. You’re entitled, but I’m entitled to live the lifestyle I’ve chosen, and without prejudice.”
I don’t think I ever tried to parade my research as anything more than a persuasive op/ed piece based on my observations and opinions. Infact in the original notecard version (not the herald) if I remember right, it’s late and i’m tired, I specifically addressed as to how this was my opinion and in the end it was your choice to whether or not you wanted to stick with it. I’d like to know what prompted you to think that I was inclined to believe this was something else besides opinion?
I’m amused however that you’re calling my argumentative debate against gorean philosophy “prejudice”.
“1. What have Goreans done to you personally? I’m not talking about things you may have seen involving others. Again, what have Goreans done to you personally?”
How about I answer your question with a question? Why do you and so many other goreans automatically assume that because I have a problem with Gor, I therefore MUST have had some bad experience in Gor which heavily jaded my opinions of a subject which somehow could never POSSIBLY draw the ire of someone? Do you really think that Gor is a perfect bastion of humanity that no one could POSSIBLY dislike without a bad personal experience to skew their ration (which logically would apparently be pro-gor) to a emotionally astranged hate for gor? Have you had any bad person experiences with Nazi’s? Probably not, but I imagine you dislike them anyways.
“2. Did you speak up at the time and try to address the issue, like a mature, rational adult would do?”
When I lurked around Port Kar and other such sims, I enjoyed discussing the ups and mostly downs of gorean philosophy, it was almost always civil and mature, even though I would often voice somewhat negative or contradictory opinions. When the Gor community switched from Port Kar’s open mindedness and roleplaying, to Glorious Ar’s close mindedness and lifestyling, critique of gor was not allowed and I would largely be banned on the spot for it. Still I managed to continue observatory research often times as long as I stayed out of the way.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Jan 3rd, 2007
What is a cult?
“Cult” is a word. Just a word. A label, too. The world simply doesn’t have enough labels, does it? If only we could get everyone and everything all neatly lined up and tagged with labels, the better to erase any sense of individuality …
Oh, hold on. Here we go. It is:
“CULT – Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults. Others may define these a little differently, but this is the simplest to work from.
Source: http://www.religio.de/cudef.html”
Thank you, Artemis. I forgot.
A cult is arguably ALL (not just some splinter groups) Christians and ALL (not some) of pretty much ANY major religion. If that’s a bad thing, we’re in some serious trouble because the overwhelming majority of people you deal with on a day-to-day basis are essentially cultists.
Interestingly enough, by that very quoted definition, SL Gor is NOT a cult.
“Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top.”
Hardly. There’s the leadership of any given city which may or may not even slightly agree with the leadership of any other given city about how to do things, and then there are individual Dom/mes within those cities who mostly have their own views on how things should be done and, in the final analysis, could really give two sh*ts what anyone else thinks about it, and then there are the Dom/mes who don’t even associate with the cities at all. All calling themselves “Goreans.”
Within those individual situations, any of a vast number of different rules apply. Artemis, you mentioned in your article that we’re kept from our friends, but I never was in the slightest. I have the same circle of friends I always did.
In fact, though, you’re really not in a position to know much about it, are you, Artemis? You claim an insider’s take, but you never actually were accepted into the community … at all, as I understand it. You don’t actually have an insider’s view … at all, do you?
When push comes to shove, you don’t actually know what you’re talking about here. At all. Do you?
And hon, I don’t mean to be mean about this, but it shows.
(Pardon my interjection using my handbook of answers to questions and criticisms that I’ve just spouted like an automaton.)
Artemis Fate
Jan 3rd, 2007
“A cult is arguably ALL (not just some splinter groups) Christians and ALL (not some) of pretty much ANY major religion. If that’s a bad thing, we’re in some serious trouble because the overwhelming majority of people you deal with on a day-to-day basis are essentially cultists.”
Religious structures are largely just cults that have grown to acceptance and size. Christianity specifically started out as a Cult in Rome, why should this idea change as it got larger and more accepted? However, the large difference between religion and cult, which makes smaller splinter sects more dangerous than the larger ones, is that a larger one doesn’t have the time and people to invest to keep people thinking the way they want (although god knows the Catholic church tried their hardest).
“Interestingly enough, by that very quoted definition, SL Gor is NOT a cult.”
Not really that interesting, since as i’ve told people one hundred times before in both of these threads, and also that is written in my article probably as many (a whole section is dedicated to it) that I don’t believe Gor is fully a cult.
I don’t consider it to be a full blown cult because of the reasons you mentioned really:
“Hardly. There’s the leadership of any given city which may or may not even slightly agree with the leadership of any other given city about how to do things, and then there are individual Dom/mes within those cities who mostly have their own views on how things should be done and, in the final analysis, could really give two sh*ts what anyone else thinks about it, and then there are the Dom/mes who don’t even associate with the cities at all. All calling themselves “Goreans.”"
I addressed this in the notecard as one reason Gor was cult-LIKE instead of a cult, because John Norman didn’t take the opportunity of these structures rising to become a cult leader, if he had it would have certainly been developed into a cult with his guidance. However, he did infact pretty much the opposite, later condemning readers of his book from taking what he wrote as any more than a series of sci-fi fantasy novel, and saying that taking it as a lifestyle is absurd (I’m still looking for a source on this one if anyone knows it, I hear it’s on the forwards for his e-book versions). However, goreans still tend to look up to John Norman, and will still quote his books of “guidance” religiously.
Anyways, Gor has no active one cult leader for guidance, but that doesn’t mean that gor is free of other cult-LIKE things (as described in the notecard), and whether or not you come across this largely depends on the splinter group you enter, one may be more conditioning and controlling than another while one may be entirely harmless. For the most part unless they are the aforementioned harmless one which are largely pure roleplay and not serious about Gor, they all believe they are the “true” form of Gor and will call all others disney gor or say they’re not real goreans.
Most of all the danger is in splinter groups, which make up for the lack of John Norman’s guidance and leadership with surrogate leaders, who control small splinter factions as you mention. The Gor structure infact is almost entirely full of these small splinter groups each with slightly different interpretations of how things should be done, something you saw a bit of when Dave attacked you in the other thread for not being gorean enough for him. The key point is that the real leadership structure is pretty much ALL gor needs to become a full blown cult. If there was a charismatic and willing leader out there somewhere, who had an idea of uniting individual gor groups into a large structure under his guidance, then it could easily if not certaintly turn into a full scale cult. This has even been tried a few times, but thankfully, most goreans are SO set in their ways, and so convinced that their ideas on Gor are the only correct ones, that there’s too much infighting for a lasting development.
“When push comes to shove, you don’t actually know what you’re talking about here. At all. Do you?”
I find this fascinating that goreans use this rhetoric, pretty much any time a debate breaks down. “You’re not gorean, so you couldn’t possibly understand what you’re talking about”. Specifically it’s an ad hominem fallacy, an attack on the author instead of the author’s points, however it’s also a strange assessment of the situation. Mostly since I can’t think particularly of any other group that would use such a statement besides religious orders and cults.
Bedevere Octagon
Jan 3rd, 2007
I think we now need to start a group of Furry Age Playing Goreans. We can get all the silliness in one nice package.
I shouldn’t talk though, I have a formerly Gorean slave in SL. LOL! Good for me! But, to my credit I do know the difference between fantasy and reality.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Jan 3rd, 2007
“Anyways, Gor has no active one cult leader for guidance, but that doesn’t mean that gor is free of other cult-LIKE things (as described in the notecard)”
Oh, now that’s just silly.
I could call football fans “cult-like.” I could call the Red Hat Society “cult-like.” For that matter, I could call a sexually promiscuous person “serial rapist-like” (sure, he/she isn’t actually a rapist at all … but sexual encounters with many people is, after all, one trait of serial rapists!).
What you’re doing is taking a convenient word that, by its very nature, inspires fear and suspicion in people (to wit, “cult”), finding some vague similarity between it and SL Goreans, and thereby justifying the use of that word to describe them. If you’re challenged, why, you just cry, “But I didn’t say they were a cult! I said they were ‘cult-like’!”
How disingenious. I doubt anyone would accept that explanation in defense of calling a sexually active person “rapist-like.”
“I find this fascinating that goreans use this rhetoric, pretty much any time a debate breaks down. “You’re not gorean, so you couldn’t possibly understand what you’re talking about”. Specifically it’s an ad hominem fallacy, an attack on the author instead of the author’s points”
Incorrect. It is in fact an attack on your points, more specifically your knowledge of the subject matter in question and therefore the validity of you holding yourself up as a subject-matter expert.
It is also calling your intellectual honesty in question because your intellectual honesty IS in question. You’ve claimed to have insider knowledge in order to lend verisimilitude to your claims, but in fact you do not really have it.
Why would you make such a claim? Naturally, because you realize that to make such sweeping statements about a group with which you really have very little experience would make you look foolish.
I never called you any names. I didn’t even really like being as pointed as I was, but I felt the need for truth here outweighed my personal desire to hold back and play nicer. Bottom line: you claimed knowledge and experience you didn’t really have, and it was largely on that body of nonexistant knowledge that you stood as a supposedly legitimate authority on the subject.
Artemis Fate
Jan 3rd, 2007
“I could call football fans “cult-like.” I could call the Red Hat Society “cult-like.” For that matter, I could call a sexually promiscuous person “serial rapist-like” (sure, he/she isn’t actually a rapist at all … but sexual encounters with many people is, after all, one trait of serial rapists!).”
To refer back to the definition posted:
“”CULT – Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. This definition covers cults within all majopr world religions, along with those cults which have no OBVIOUS religious base such as commercial, educational and psychological cults.
Source: http://www.religio.de/cudef.html“”
Now football, to take your example, is described as fun to watch, but rarely described as the “one true way to happiness” or other such things. If football fans did start spouting philosophy that a person can only truely be happy by watching football, and that people are naturally unhappy with any other sports, or claimed to be natural football fans. I’d say that’d sound pretty cult-like to me. This is what goreans spout on webpages and the books continually repeat how earth people are unhappy not knowing the gorean ways, and will always be unhappy until they learn the gorean ways.
“Incorrect. It is in fact an attack on your points, more specifically your knowledge of the subject matter in question and therefore the validity of you holding yourself up as a subject-matter expert.”
Whenever you’re bringing MY character, or MY being, into an argument, throwing something at MY credibility, that has ventured into attack on the author instead of the author’s points. I could be a retarded nazi fanatically religious insane hobo, if I make a valid point it’s still a valid point, if I make an invalid point it’s still an invalid point. You prove one or the other by debating my points, not that i’m the aforementioned string of adjectives. Now, in reverse, I could say “well your points should be ignored because you’re a gorean and therefore are automatically trapped in bias” which may or may not be true, it doesn’t matter because it has nothing to do with the points you make besides that it helped create them.
“It is also calling your intellectual honesty in question because your intellectual honesty IS in question. You’ve claimed to have insider knowledge in order to lend verisimilitude to your claims, but in fact you do not really have it.”
I don’t remember really claiming insider knowledge, I said that I was a close observer in the notecard but didn’t really bother trying to set up credibility, I simply must have forgotten that I stated something like this on a comment or something? Can you quote it for me?
“Why would you make such a claim? Naturally, because you realize that to make such sweeping statements about a group with which you really have very little experience would make you look foolish.”
Define “Very little experience”? My credibility with goreans is that I was involved at first, read up to book 5, and even began slave training for over a month until I decided it wasn’t for me. I forgot about it thereafter until Port Kar opened and began to hang around there consistantly, mostly listening to people talk not getting involved if possible. I also started researching background knowledge, reading most of what they had in the library then. This went on for a long time, (can’t quite remember, maybe a few months) until Port Kar more or less got replaced in popularity by Glorious Ar, I started going over there and doing the same thing. However they didn’t quite appreciate at it as much, and within a few months they banned me. I started going to other sims and by then i’d started kicking up my research, developing opinions based on observations and the writings i’d read. I’d still been transversing in and around gor sims but it was harder to stay around without getting banned, so I started an alt to be able to observe more which I kept going for some time before I had decided i’d researched and learned just about all i’d be able to figure out about the community itself and started puttering off, until I eventually decided to write this. Overall my observational experiences with the goreans lasted for somewhere between 1-2 years. Certainly other goreans will say that they’ve been involved for 8 or 9 years or whatever, but 1-2 years certainly isn’t “very little experience”.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Jan 3rd, 2007
“Now football, to take your example, is described as fun to watch, but rarely described as the “one true way to happiness” or other such things. If football fans did start spouting philosophy that a person can only truely be happy by watching football, and that people are naturally unhappy with any other sports, or claimed to be natural football fans. I’d say that’d sound pretty cult-like to me.”
Hey, I never said football was a cult, just that it’s cult-like. It features a group of people, and there are authoritarian figures in it, and aggressive advertising and the “support ‘your’ team” mentality could be described as “mind-control” techniques to gain and keep members.
For that matter, a classroom is cult-like, too, since it’s a group with all teaching and guidance coming from the person at the top (the teacher). Classroom discipline might be a form of “mind-control.” Not a cult? Hey, I never said it was! Just “cult-like.” Wink wink, nudge nudge.
“Whenever you’re bringing MY character, or MY being, into an argument, throwing something at MY credibility, that has ventured into attack on the author instead of the author’s points.”
Why? In a courtroom, if you were going to be held up as an expert witness and actually were not, you might be called on it. That’s important because claiming expertise you lack gives your testimony weight that it really does not deserve. Why do you expect a free pass here?
In the very beginning of your article, you state, “This is a critical, first-hand account of Gorean lifestyle written by a close observer.”
First-hand. That implies that everything you’re writing thereafter is based on first-hand experience. You’ve been there, and you’ve been there for a long time. You’ve seen the good, the bad and the ugly, and now, years later, you’ve emerged to set the record straight for us all.
What actually happened is that you briefly trained to be a slave, dropped out of it, and then just sort of hung around watching people, apparently making something of a nuisance of yourself in the process, and did the same reading anyone could have done (and many have).
Do you have some first-hand knowledge of what goes on in SL Gor sims? Yes, a little. Do you have the breadth and depth of first-hand knowledge you imply that you have? No. And no and no. You, like so many people who rush off half-cocked, have picked up just enough to think you know a lot more than you actually do, and then you’ve gone on to paint yourself as a seasoned veteran on the subject.
And for the record, I have also addressed your main point directly. Your main point is that SL Gor could be called “cult-like.” My response is, so what? So can a lot of things because describing something as “cult-like” is just another way of saying that it isn’t actually a cult at all, but it may have at least one trait in common with a cult.
My response is further (and here is where the accusations you’re so anxious for me to be making really do begin) that I don’t really believe that you mean for us to pay attention to that detail. You’re dropping the word “cult” because it’s a very emotionally charged word, and it doesn’t take much for people who aren’t paying very close attention to how they’re being manipulated to get from “it’s cult-like” to just “it’s a cult” all on their own.
In short, I believe that you’re trying to call it a cult without directly saying, “It’s definitely a cult.” By not quite doing that, you always leave yourself an escape hatch: anytime you’re called on the inaccuracy of the description, you can always cry, “But I never said it was a cult!” Just like that, you’re off the hook.
Believe it or not, you’re not the first person to ever use these kinds of deceptive tactics.
Artemis Fate
Jan 4th, 2007
I don’t believe that what i’ve said about Gor’s status, clearly explained as not quite a cult because John Norman isn’t interested in a leader, but with all the same characteristics, or ingredients, of a cult there, just none of the cohesion. What my original statement about gor and cults was yes and no, in a smaller sense it is, many of these small-scale groups opperate as cults, however, the larger sense of Gor in general is too chopped up into splinters to be considered cult.
I understand you’re trying to protect Gor’s image, but i’m sorry the definition of cult-like (in that it may be a cult depending on where you look or may be harmless) fits.
“Why? In a courtroom, if you were going to be held up as an expert witness and actually were not, you might be called on it. That’s important because claiming expertise you lack gives your testimony weight that it really does not deserve. Why do you expect a free pass here?”
The fact that you’re relating a conversational debate to a criminal law trial says a lot to me.
“First-hand. That implies that everything you’re writing thereafter is based on first-hand experience. You’ve been there, and you’ve been there for a long time. You’ve seen the good, the bad and the ugly, and now, years later, you’ve emerged to set the record straight for us all.”
First-hand means that I was there, which I was in my observations, i’m not getting this data from an envoy, it doesn’t mean i’m an “insider”.
“What actually happened is that you briefly trained to be a slave, dropped out of it, and then just sort of hung around watching people, apparently making something of a nuisance of yourself in the process, and did the same reading anyone could have done (and many have).”
Never said I did anything special, I just took the time to observe and write a paper, many people have done the same thing for other purposes.
“Do you have some first-hand knowledge of what goes on in SL Gor sims? Yes, a little. Do you have the breadth and depth of first-hand knowledge you imply that you have? No. And no and no. You, like so many people who rush off half-cocked, have picked up just enough to think you know a lot more than you actually do, and then you’ve gone on to paint yourself as a seasoned veteran on the subject.”
Glad to see you’re capable of the same hasty generalizations you so vividly accuse me of.
“And for the record, I have also addressed your main point directly. Your main point is that SL Gor could be called “cult-like.” My response is, so what?”
And i’m debating those responses, that’s the purpose of a debate, but you’re also throwing in these personal attacks. I’ve been avoiding it, but really if you want to start criticizing me for being an “outsider” to gor, and therefore somehow not possibly being able to grasp it, I could criticize you for being an insider to gor, and therefore unable to hold anything but bias to Gor’s divinity. See how this assertion causes problems? Basically we’ve come to that, you can’t understand gor unless you’re in it, but if you’re in it you’re biased to it. In otherwords, it’s saying “You can’t criticize gor”
Artemis Fate
Jan 4th, 2007
That being said, I honestly think i’ve said everything I could say, I feel at this point that i’m just repeating and clarifying things i’ve already stated. I’m sure any argument brought up has already been discussed at length here or on one of the similar articles in SL herald or the notecard itself.
I think i’m just going to back off the subject and let the notecard speak my points, people can disagree or agree with it.
Slayora DeSantis
Mar 23rd, 2007
I roleplay in Gor in Second Life..im not a slave, but have tried it..(eek)…and have been a free woman as well as a panther. I am now an outlaw, neither panther, or taluna..and this is controversial, because there are so many interpretations of the Gor books to make a person’s head spin.
Gor, to me…is fiction. Just like people who dress up and pretend they’re Jedis out of Star Wars, or who are in StarFleet Command…it’s a game, and it’s fiction. I roleplay, and I enjoy it. I have not read but one of his books so far, and now i am on a second book. Granted, there are some people that take Gor a bit far out of roleplay to the point that it’s a lifestyle for them, but to each his/her own.
I just wish that I could contact Mr. Norman for a definitive interpretation on whether or not a female outlaw exists outside of panthers and talunas. Some believe they do, and others believe they dont.
Well, that’s my two cents!
Slayora DeSantis, Wraith Outlaw of Semris