The Problems of Gor – Part 1
by Pixeleen Mistral on 27/11/06 at 6:06 pm
Philosophy, Society, Conditioning
[editors note: Our Gorean-themed week continues with an abridged version of a notecard written by Artemis Fate -- contact Artemis for a complete copy of the 'Problems of Gor'.]
by Artemis Fate
Gor is an alternate-world detailed in John Norman’s “Chronicles of Gor”, a twenty-six novel series that combines philosophy and erotica with science-fiction. It is a highly detailed setting in terms of wildlife and customs, borrowing from various ancient cultures such as the Greek, Native American and Viking cultures. Advanced technology is present, but the life of the humans on the planet remain otherwise primitive to the modern day. Followers of the philosophies and lifestyle outlined in the books are called Goreans.
Gor has been a presence online for quite some time, but their exposure has been limited to places such as Usenet and private IRC channels. However, the Gorean culture has shifted towards more open communities. Many people were not aware of Gor until joining visual chat rooms such as the Palace, Active Worlds, and Second Life.
This has not been met without problems. It has been widely believed that Active Worlds was ‘taken over’ by Goreans. This came to pass as many Goreans were placed in charge of the community as ‘Peacekeepers’, the game masters of Active Worlds. Many reports of unfair treatment, attacks on criticism and strong promotion of Gor in the beginner areas have been made.
When it comes to Second Life, Gor first became widely known when the sim Port Kar went public in the spring of 2005. However, the Gorean community have been around for quite some time along the mainland and in private islands. There are now more than a hundred public Gorean locations in Second Life.
Gor Philosophy
“Strong men simply need women. This will never be understood by weak men. A strong man needs a woman at his feet, who is truly his. Anything else is less than his fulfillment. When a man has once eaten the meat of the gods he will never again chew on the straw of fools.”
– Explorers of Gor, page 12
Gorean philosophy is split between what is detailed in the books and the more common standards of the community. The main difference lies in that the books are not strictly sexual. The Master/Slave relationship is not the primary focus as most of the detail is given to the society of Gor at large.
Beyond defining the Master/Slave relationship, the books have made commentary on a somewhat diverse range of topics. These topics have included genetic superiority, the nature of citizenship and freedom and war, among other things. An anonymous author commented on that the stances taken on these kind of subjects as being remarkably similar to those of Hitler’s in Mein Kampf. As a result, some have classified Gorean philosophy as a form of nazism.
This is a key contrast as the Gorean community has placed its focus on the Master/Slave relationship as its main purpose and sometimes its only purpose.
Therefore we get into the quote above as a main aspect of Gorean community philosophy: Man wishes to dominate a woman and a woman wants to be dominated by a man. If a woman does not, she is weak. All women are inferior to men and can only be happy being owned by a man.
Gor Society
Generally, Gorean society in SL is made up as a series of strict rules. Some have involved themselves because these rules seem similar to heavy roleplay. To many roleplayers in Second Life, this is the only place to roleplay because few other communities exist for it.
Not only are the rules strict, but the punishments are severe. Failure to follow the rules of their society may result in being banned from the sim to having your character executed. Execution will also result in a banning from the sim..
In addition to rules and punishment, the Goreans run a slave market. The prices of slaves depend on how well ‘trained’ the slave is. Typically this can range from L$2000 to L$20,000, which is roughly $8 to $80 USD. Of course, there are cases where a slave may go for a higher price.
A man who is displeased by his slave will punish her her severely. This may take the form of harsh beatings or by outright killing her. Gorean executions can even take on the form of sexual torture in more extreme cases. A slave who tries to run away is pursued and often times eaten by a monster used for hunting.
Conditioning
As to be expected, the relationship dependency is skewed. Men are encouraged to treat their slaves like objects and women encouraged to give everything they have to men. This leads to problems when a Master no longer feels that his slave is of any use. A Master will simply sell the girl to someone else and get the money, he developed no huge relationship to the girl as much as you have a relationship with your car.
The girl on the other hand, is taught to be dependent and totally in love with her Master. To be sold to another so is a form of rejection. This sort of sting can be more mild, with the girl a little depressed at each time she’s traded off. However, some have gone into a full breakdown and have inflicted pain on themselves or others. While not every slave is sold without consent, those that have been will usually have a story that falls between these reactions.
This sort of dependency is only the surface of what conditioning Gorean slaves can be put through. To most starting out in Gor, it’s an innocent fantasy world of roleplay. Many would not even consider there being any possible mind conditioning or thought reform occurring. This is something that can and will be exploited.
Doublethink and Repetition
“Freedom permits a woman to live without a man. Slavery makes a woman need a mans touch… Slavery, of course, is the surest path by means of which a woman can discover her femininity. The paradox of the collar is the freedom which a woman experiences in at last finding herself, and becoming herself.”
– Magicians of Gor, page 160
“The great masses of people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. Especially if it is repeated again and again.”
– Adolf Hitler
George Orwell’s defined the term ‘doublethink’ in his novel 1984. Doublethink is the power of accepting two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously. A popular doublethink slogan in his book is “Freedom is slavery, war is peace”.
For some slave girls in Gor communities, John Norman’s books are mandatory readings. Each book has the repeated theme that women are naturally slaves to men. The moral of every story is that neither men nor women can be happy unless they follow this nature. This is the big lie that is repeated again and again.
They state that “Slavery is freedom”. This is the direct flip of Orwell’s quote “Freedom is slavery”. As stated above, this is repeated throughout the books and written in as persuasive and romantic of a matter as possible. The intended goal of this mandatory reading is to drill home this sort of doublethink until you have a person honestly believing that “slavery is freedom”. This is an exceptionally effective form of control.
Seven Tactics of ‘Coercive Persuasion’
For a more professional look at this sort of conditioning, Dr. Margaret Singer has written an excellent piece on ‘coercive persuasion’. For the sake of simplicity, it’s best if the paper is summarized here. ‘Coercive persuasion’ is a method of slowly manipulating the way a person thinks and feels. It doesn’t happen over night and all seven tactics do not need to be used. But, in time, a person exposed to these tactics can be influenced and conditioned.
The seven tactics she’s outlined can be summarized as:
1. ‘Softening Up’ – First a victim is prepared by focusing them on REPEATED activities, ideas or senses. This is to make the person more receptive to further suggestion.
2. ‘Social support’ – By using rewards and punishments, the victim is separated from their friends and family who are not part of the group. Being part of the group is rewarded, spending time outside of it is punished. Making a person reliant upon the group for money and other needs helps this immensely.
3. ‘Censorship’ – Rules are put in place where certain thoughts are not allowed to be expressed. What can be said to an outsider from the group is also controlled, as is communication in general. Usually a group will come up with its own ‘language’ for describing things.
4. ‘Peer pressure’ – The group makes a constant, firm effort to convince a person to rethink their own beliefs and their past life. The victim is made to believe their past way of life is wrong and that they must fit into the group.
5. ‘Low self-esteem’ – The group seeks ways of breaking a person’s self-confidence and faith in their own judgement. The idea is to make a person not wish to act on their own and instead be guided by the group.
6. ‘Non-violent punishment’ – Anything from intense humiliation to loss of privilege, social isolation, loss of status, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques. This is all done to make the person afraid of disobeying.
7. ‘Threats’ – A victim is lead to believe that failing to fit into the group will mean terrible things. Not just punishment mentioned in tactic six, but things such as mental illness, drug habits, being poor and homeless, a miserable love life and general unhappiness.
– TO BE CONTINUED –
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“I realize you’re no fantasy roleplayer, but light sabers are sci-fi. They’re considered “tech.””
That’s only assuming that the source is technological, and even then, to any primitive society technology is magic. My point was “a sword made of light” sounds pretty damn magical, and therefore fantasy, especially since you can’t exactly tell light to go “about ye far”, scientifically.
Funny you pick Star Wars as an example, since Star Wars isn’t Sci-fi. It’s based in space, and involves futuristic technology, but it’s more “space fantasy”. It has all the fantasy tropes, knights, wizards, princesses, dashing rogues, magic, swords, good vs. evil, except replaced with a more “spacey” equivalent, it’s about as Sci-fi as Lord of the Rings.
“And if you’re wondering, the Romans did not have furries or light sabers. Not even Augustus.”
Speaking in terms of Roman mythology, The Minotaur begs to disagree with your statement.
Incidentally, Roman mythology dictated that Rome was founded by Romulus and Remus, brothers raised by wolves. Roman mythology’s primary god, Jupiter (Zeus), had a thing for turning into various animals and getting freaky with the mortal ladies, and he also had a thing for wielding lightning bolts like a sword.
If you’re talking about a 100% accurate portrayal of the Roman empire, then sure (though you stated it was matriarchal, which is wildly inaccurate if that’s the case, Rome was highly patriarchal), but you’re talking about fantasy. Granted I’m not big on fantasy, but it seems to me that just about all fantasy includes magic and non-human beings.
“and we’ll see how long it is before you get banned. Let’s put your theory to this test. What do you say?”
I’m not arguing with your right to ban me from your sim for any and all reasons. Just your definitions of what is and isn’t fantasy.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “Incidentally, Roman mythology”
You do understand that those were myths, right? And they didn’t actually happen? People just believed they did. Some fantasy RP does involve magic and myths. My sim didn’t and this was made clear in the rules.
Why you can’t understand this simple concept is puzzling. But I still would like to take you to a similar sim. I want you to dress as a furry and break out with a light saber. And then, when they ask you to leave, explain to them what is and is not fantasy. Let’s see if you get banned. What do you say?
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We
Hey, I know this great sim based on North Africa in the 1700s. Why don’t you dress up as Jesus and when people get killed in battle, bring them back to life. Hey, just explain to the sim admins that people believed in myths during that time that Jesus did these things. So, it’s perfectly acceptable for you to play Jesus raising the dead in any sim set in a period after about 35 AD. Right? Why not?
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“You do understand that those were myths, right? And they didn’t actually happen?”
Yes, which is why I started my statement with “Speaking in terms of Roman mythology” and bookended with a comparison to the real historical Rome. I assumed we were talking about “Fantasy” since you said your sim is “Human Fantasy” but if you’re the kind of fantasy roleplay sim that involves no fantasy whatsoever, than that’s different.
“I want you to dress as a furry and break out with a light saber. And then, when they ask you to leave, explain to them what is and is not fantasy. Let’s see if you get banned. What do you say?”
I’m curious as to how that would prove your point. I could say “No humans ever wear red”, and then invite you to my sim while wearing red and ban you from it. Would that prove my statement?
As I said before, I’m not debating yours or any other sim’s right to ban for whatever reason they want, only debating your definition of Fantasy as apparently not being able to include “magical swords” and “talking animals”.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “I’m curious as to how that would prove your point”
Well, according to you this is just my misguided definition of what is and is not fantasy. Okay, let’s test that theory, shall we? If you truly believe it yourself, you should be eager to put it to the test.
So, let’s go to a fantasy sim, you break out with a light saber, and then when they ask you to leave, just explain to them that Star Wars is fantasy. And therefore, you can tell them, light sabers are perfectly acceptable in any world that calls itself “fantasy.” Surely this is all my wacked-out crazy idea of what constitutes fantasy, and they’ll completely agree with you. Right?
The fact you won’t accept my challenge suggests that put no more weight in your opinion then I do.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“Well, according to you this is just my misguided definition of what is and is not fantasy.”
Well according to me and the accepted definition for what qualifies as a part of the “Fantasy Genre”. If it doesn’t include something that isn’t possible in the real world, i.e.: magic or supernatural, then it’s not considered fantasy. What people allow in their own various fantasy worlds is up to them, but just about anything would be allowed in the fantasy genre as long as not possible in the real world (or at least not very probable), it doesn’t need to be based in any particular environment (Like a medieval or renaissance time period), to be considered fantasy.
It sounds like your roleplay sim was more akin to the Renaissance Faire, which wouldn’t be considered fantasy (though some allow fantasy elements), it’d be classified as a historical re-enactment (though usually wildly inaccurate).
“So, let’s go to a fantasy sim, you break out with a light saber, and then when they ask you to leave, just explain to them that Star Wars is fantasy.”
I have no idea why you progress in pushing this bizarre challenge, besides that it seems to be a convenient excuse to ignore my points. What exactly would getting banned from a sim prove other than I would be banned from the sim? Is there some sort of fantasy sim in SL that is considered the respected universal authority on what is and isn’t fantasy, and bans everything that doesn’t qualify? I’ve seen a fantasy sim that doesn’t allow dragons because the avatars are too big and it’d be too much “god-modding”, does that mean “Dragons” aren’t fantasy?
This will be the third time I’ve repeated this: I accept you and anyone else’s right to ban for any and all reasons, I only challenge your definition of what is and isn’t Fantasy.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “I have no idea why you progress in pushing this bizarre challenge”
Because it demonstrates the weakness of your case. Many sims call themselves fantasy worlds and don’t permit supernatural, mythological, or magical RP. Gor, for example, I believe does not. (I’m not entirely familiar enough with Gor to be sure, but I think this is right.) But it’s still a fantasy world. They certainly don’t allow furries or “magical swords.”
Fact is, some fantasy RP excludes these things. And it’s still okay to call it fantasy.
Some are purely sexual fantasy. You should go there and tell them that they shouldn’t call themselves fantasy worlds since they allow blue jeans.
I suppose you have a definition of what is and is not goth as well, and think that any club that calls itself goth should include all the things you think are goth. So, if they specifically prohibit vampires for whatever reason, they shouldn’t call themselves goth, right?
I really was never arguing whether or not people have a right to ban who they want. So, I kept ignoring this point, because it’s irrelevant. I don’t know why you felt the need to repeat it three times.
You should be a search word cop. You’d be great at it. You could travel from sim to sim determining if they’re living up to your definitions or not.
Yep
Jun 2nd, 2011
“Hey, I know this great sim based on North Africa in the 1700s. Why don’t you dress up as Jesus and when people get killed in battle, bring them back to life. Hey, just explain to the sim admins that people believed in myths during that time that Jesus did these things. So, it’s perfectly acceptable for you to play Jesus raising the dead in any sim set in a period after about 35 AD. Right? Why not?”
LOL now that is hilarious.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“Because it demonstrates the weakness of your case. Many sims call themselves fantasy worlds and don’t permit supernatural, mythological, or magical RP.”
So? Some people call themselves “Doctor” without having any sort of degree in anything, all it means is that they’re using a label which isn’t appropriate. Though I honestly can’t name one roleplay sim in SL that defines itself as a part of the Fantasy genre but allows no fantasy elements (outside of yours apparently).
“Gor, for example, I believe does not. (I’m not entirely familiar enough with Gor to be sure, but I think this is right.) But it’s still a fantasy world. They certainly don’t allow furries or “magical swords.””
Oh, you thought of one! Except….
Gor is based on another planet, run by giant ants (Called the priest kings) who are a technologically advanced space-faring society, who use face-melting lasers to fry any human’s brain who tries to invent something more advanced than gunpowder (Goreans referred to this as “flame death”), they run Gor as some sort of social-experiment on humans. They also are in a conflict with another alien space-faring race that looks like werewolves called the Kurii. It also involves magic, there’s even a book called “Magicians of Gor”. The first book also features, among other things, sentient talking giant Spiders.
So, yeah, the actual series of fantasy books called “Gor” is full of supernatural, magical, and impossible elements. The roleplay sims don’t focus on it, because they aren’t interested in fantasy roleplay, they’re BDSM roleplay loosely based on Gor.
“Some are purely sexual fantasy. You should go there and tell them that they shouldn’t call themselves fantasy worlds since they allow blue jeans.”
You’re using another version of the word “fantasy”, as in “day dreaming” not as the “Fantasy genre”.
“I suppose you have a definition of what is and is not goth as well”
No, but I feel a straw-man argument coming on…
“and think that any club that calls itself goth should include all the things you think are goth. So, if they specifically prohibit vampires for whatever reason, they shouldn’t call themselves goth, right?”
…and there it is.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “is full of supernatural, magical, and impossible elements.”
But I said….”(I’m not entirely familiar enough with Gor to be sure, but I think this is right.)”
You conveniently ignored that to try to score some cheap points. But since all I had to do was copy and paste my addendum, you just end up looking like an ass.
“No, but I feel a straw-man argument coming on…”
Really?
Then how do you explain this…”Some people call themselves “Doctor” without having any sort of degree in anything, all it means is that they’re using a label which isn’t appropriate.”
No, you clearly think you know how people should and shouldn’t label their sims. You can’t just call something a strawman because it shows the stupidity of your argument.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“You conveniently ignored that to try to score some cheap points. But since all I had to do was copy and paste my addendum, you just end up looking like an ass.”
Or more to explain how deeply rooted in Fantasy Gor is, and that had you done the smallest amount of research before making a point, you would have found this out. Odd that you make points on subjects without actually knowing anything about it, or even bothering to look it up.
“Then how do you explain this…”Some people call themselves “Doctor” without having any sort of degree in anything, all it means is that they’re using a label which isn’t appropriate.””
I was using an example of a real life phenomena to prove the point that people sometimes use labels that aren’t appropriate. This point was made to back up my original point that some people may be applying the genre “fantasy” to their sims inappropriately. I don’t claim to know the categorization of “Doctor” as a label anymore than conventionally you’re not able to just call yourself “Doctor” and have it be officially accepted.
“No, you clearly think you know how people should and shouldn’t label their sims. You can’t just call something a strawman because it shows the stupidity of your argument.”
Actually, that is the definition of a straw-man, creating a false position for me then attacking it instead of my actual position.
I was speaking only of fantasy genre definitions, you took this and expanded it to say that I must believe that I know the definition and label of EVERYTHING, and then tore down this position that you yourself created for me.
paul
Jun 2nd, 2011
LOL god help me I actually read most of that.
@We: you are either a complete moron or a ridiculous troll. People who run sims get to decide whatever they want to decide about what is appropriate for their sim, regardless of your “mastery” over definitions. Persephone is right: the community (i.e. the sim owner) gets to decide what is appropriate. Pretty simple, really.
Actually, i bet you are neither a complete moron or a ridiculous troll. I bet you are one of those deluded and all to common people that believe sincerely that their version of second life should be everyone’s version of second life.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Paul
“Persephone is right: the community (i.e. the sim owner) gets to decide what is appropriate. Pretty simple, really.”
You seem to be mistaken, I’m the one who said (three times) ” I’m not debating yours or any other sim’s right to ban for whatever reason they want”. If they want to ban furries, humans, people who wear red, people have lightsabers, I don’t give a shit, it’s their sim they can do whatever they want with it.
Persephone just started out by saying that certain things like furries and magic swords “weren’t fantasy”, and I was debating that. Sounds like you should be directing that comment to her not me.
Senban Babii
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We
“The roleplay sims don’t focus on it, because they aren’t interested in fantasy roleplay, they’re BDSM roleplay loosely based on Gor.”
Thus winning the discussion. Because really when you get down to it, this is really what is at the heart of so-called Gorean roleplay. That’s not a value judgement, it’s a simple observation of the facts.
Consider something too as a wider point. This is something I read in a gaming magazine a few years ago but it really stuck and I try to incorporate the idea into any games that I run, regardless of system The writer was talking about historical wargaming and specifically about Romans (I think). But he was relating how during a game, his opponent had moved some unit or other into a copse of woods. He pointed out that the unit wouldn’t have done it. His opponent said that they would and went on to list all these tactical reasons about why it was the right thing to do. The writer said yes but you’re missing the point. These Roman soldiers were very superstitious. They firmly believed that copses of trees like that were the abode of creatures like centaurs (or whatever it was) and would require a great deal of pushing before they’d enter the woods and even then they’d be terrified. So whenever I run a game, I try to give a sense of the world in question by working in superstitions like this that mean the characters won’t do things without worrying about consequences, worrying about old legends and so on.
Think about a river, choked with weeds. “Oh we’ll just wade across” say the players. “F*ck that say the characters, Jinny Greenteeth lives in that river and we’ll be dragged beneath the surface and drowned”.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenny_Greenteeth
So all these so-called roleplay sims are really not roleplay sims at all. They are 3D simulations that you can dress up and walk around in. Gorean “roleplay” is not roleplay at all, as We points out. It’s just a thin veneer to add flavour to BDSM activity. Otherwise you’d see a far wider range of activity.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “Odd that you make points on subjects without actually knowing anything about it”
Still trying to score cheap points of of this one, I see. I clearly stated I wasn’t sure that my statement was, in fact, correct. So, yes, when I have doubts about my statements, I express that. Then, having expressed that, you try to make it seem as if I made the statement with full assurance of its accuracy, conveniently ignoring a very unambiguous expression of doubt. You are, indeed, a sad dishonest little man, and I can’t believe would not be fully aware of what you’re doing.
And speaking of strawmen….
“Persephone just started out by saying that certain things like furries and magic swords ‘weren’t fantasy’, and I was debating that. Sounds like you should be directing that comment to her not me”
I love how you put “weren’t fantasy” in quotes, as if I had actually said this. Again, this shows just how blatantly dishonest you are. I never once said this.
Actually, I said light sabers were not fantasy and that many fantasy sims do not permit furries. You went on to claim that light sabers were just magical swords and furries were fantasy creatures. Thus, you challenged whether or not either should be excluded from sims that in one way or another are considered or advertised as “fantasy” sims.
There were no strawmen in my characterization of your argument. Based on the gross dishonesty with which you characterized my statements about magic and Gor, I think it’s quite clear you’re just a sad little troll. And as you’ve seen here, I’m not the first to suspect this.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“Still trying to score cheap points of of this one, I see”
Please stop trying to backtrack, you made a point, you commented that you “think this is right” and tossed it out there without bothering to research it. I explained how your belief (ambiguous or not) was incorrect, and you got offended. Can we get off this, or would you prefer to dwell on your failed points some more instead of the actual discussion?
“I love how you put “weren’t fantasy” in quotes, as if I had actually said this. Again, this shows just how blatantly dishonest you are. I never once said this.”
The two statements that got me started on this were:
-“You seriously wouldn’t see any lack of plausibility if someone was, say, a gladiator and broke out with a light saber? Seriously??”
-”Well, if you have a human fantasy world, talking animals clash like someone using a laser gun in a medieval setting.”
That seem to suggest that something like a “Lightsaber” and something like a furry could never exist in a fantasy setting by your definition. I countered by stating that “talking animals” have been a part of “human fantasy” since there was humans fantasizing, and that a sword made out of light is much more fantasy than it is Science, since scientifically light doesn’t work that way, and it’s especially Fantasy if you explain it with Magic. You responded by saying that “light sabers are sci-fi. They’re considered “tech.”" (Which is why I thought it amusing I was being attacked for narrowing definitions of what is and isn’t fantasy, when I’m expanding them to include things you don’t).
Therefore we got started on the discussion of what is and isn’t Fantasy, with my debate platform being expanding it to anything that is based on the supernatural or impossible (I used Star Wars as an example of Fantasy that takes place in a non-conventional fantasy setting), where your point seems to be narrowing fantasy to only things you consider appropriate (Like furries and light swords not being fantasy, and potentially fantasy only taking place in “pre-industrial” sort of conditions).
Largely I think the main point of difference is that I define Fantasy as anything centering around supernatural and magical, whereas you seem to consider “Fantasy” and Historical re-enactments to be interchangeable.
“Based on the gross dishonesty with which you characterized my statements about magic and Gor, I think it’s quite clear you’re just a sad little troll. And as you’ve seen here, I’m not the first to suspect this.”
You’re welcome to think that if it makes you feel better about this debate, but it doesn’t change the debate discussion or the validity of my points. Attacking me instead of my position is known as the Ad Hominem Fallacy.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “you commented that you “think this is right” and tossed it out there without bothering to research it.”
Wrong. Here is what I said: “Gor, for example, I believe does not. (I’m not entirely familiar enough with Gor to be sure, but I think this is right.)”
Again you’re lying through your teeth, and I understand why you’d do this. You’ve been so thoroughly humiliated in this debate, as you have been in all our debates, and you have to sink to deliberately misquoting me to try and score some points — any points — anywhere you can. It’s sad you have to do this, but some people just lack any integrity.
“That seem to suggest that something like a “Lightsaber” and something like a furry could never exist in a fantasy setting by your definition”
Wrong. I never suggested they couldn’t exist in fantasy. You suggested they *must* exist in fantasy. And it was NOT “something like” a light saber. It was PRECISELY a light saber. As in the high-tech sci-fi weapon from Star Wars that was made a humming sound. And even then, this could be seen as something perfectly acceptable in a Roman/Star Wars hybrid fantasy world. Something “like” a light saber could exist in a fantasy world. A flaming sword, for example. Duh.
But that doesn’t mean excluding such things excludes your sim from a classification as a fantasy sim, as you have clearly attempted to argue here.
And yes, I am attacking you personally, because I think you’re a dishonest, sad little troll. I did provide rational counter arguments to demonstrate the weakness of your position. So, refuting your weak position and then pointing out what an asshole you are is not an ad hominem attack. It’s perhaps a tangent at best. But I’d like to reiterate that last point and stress again that you are a pathetically dishonest little troll boy and I find you utterly repugnant.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“Wrong. Here is what I said: “Gor, for example, I believe does not. (I’m not entirely familiar enough with Gor to be sure, but I think this is right.)””
I know, I quoted it directly if you’ll notice. I’m not sure why this is being discussed, you stated something you “think is right”, and I explained that it wasn’t. Was your statement “Not intended to be factual”?
“Wrong. I never suggested they couldn’t exist in fantasy. You suggested they *must* exist in fantasy”
My point is that something of the impossible or supernatural must exist for it to be fantasy, not that it must have talking animals and somehow specifically lightsabers to be fantasy, that’d be absurd and I never suggested anything to the point. You’ll notice I often avoided calling it “lightsaber” choosing instead ‘magic sword” or “Light sword” to accentuate the point that I was referring to the IDEA of a sword made of light running on unclear circumstances (i.e.: Magic) while you persisted on referring to it only as a lightsaber directly from Star Wars.
“Something “like” a light saber could exist in a fantasy world. A flaming sword, for example. Duh.”
Good then, you agree with me and we can move on.
“But that doesn’t mean excluding such things excludes your sim from a classification as a fantasy sim, as you have clearly attempted to argue here.”
I’ve never once attempted to argue that, in fact I state quite clearly the opposite: “What people allow in their own various fantasy worlds is up to them, but just about anything would be allowed in the fantasy genre as long as not possible in the real world”.
Only if your sim includes NO fantasy elements (supernatural, magic, impossible accepted as fact), then it’s not Fantasy. It sounds like your sim was more historical revisionism, taking real life history and twisting it in different ways that didn’t happen, but possibly could have.
“But I’d like to reiterate that last point and stress again that you are a pathetically dishonest little troll boy and I find you utterly repugnant.”
Well at least we’ve made it clear that you’ve firmly chosen the low road. I don’t have any comment on your person other that you hold points that I often disagree with, I’ve never met you personally and have no idea of your personality or character outside of your views expressed and how you express them, so I couldn’t fairly return any comments on your character.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “Was your statement “Not intended to be factual”?”
It was stated with a high degree of uncertainty. See here how you try to take me again out of context in an ongoing stream of gross dishonesty? Here’s the other part of my statement: “I’m not entirely familiar enough with Gor to be sure”
Please tell everyone how declaring that I’m so unfamiliar with Gor to be sure of the truth of my claim is “intended to be factual.” How does saying that one is not sure mean that the person is entirely sure? I’d love you to explain this to us all. Can you do that for me? I’d love to see you try to defend this position some more, especially in light of your “I’m just trying to express my opinion” innocence rap you’re bullshitting everyone with here. So, please, continue to explain to us how being unsure of something means that you’re sure of it.
“My point is that something of the impossible or supernatural must exist for it to be fantasy”
My sim was set on a planet, very different tectonically from Earth, in an unspecified corner of the universe. There you have it. It’s fantasy.
And yes, you tried to change the discussion from one about light sabers in a Roman gladiator battle to one of magical swords in a fantasy setting, which was an attempt to change the discussion to fit your argument, rather than letting your argument fit the discussion. And it failed. Miserably.
“Only if your sim includes NO fantasy elements”
Besides the planetary position, there were other non-Earthly elements to my sim. It’s not worth going into all of them, but they were there. Magic, furries, and light sabers were not.
“Well at least we’ve made it clear that you’ve firmly chosen the low road.”
Well, you had no problem lying through your teeth and claiming I made a statement of fact, when, in fact, I had clearly stated I wasn’t sure about the truth of my statement. So, yes, I met you on the road you decided to take. Now, you want to play innocent like you’re just trying to express your mind and the big bad Persephone just keeps attacking you personally. A very typical troll tactic. If you’re going to troll here, at least break out with some clever and original tactics. Will ya?
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“It was stated with a high degree of uncertainty. See here how you try to take me again out of context in an ongoing stream of gross dishonesty? Here’s the other part of my statement: “I’m not entirely familiar enough with Gor to be sure””
If you were so unsure, why did you state it at all? Why did you not research it to make sure? Why did you end the statement with “I think it’s right” if you apparently had no idea?
If I said “The world, for example, I believe is flat. (I’m not entirely familiar enough with the planet to be sure, but I think this is right.)” would you expect me to be offended if you stated “No, in fact the world isn’t flat” and backed up that position? I certainly wouldn’t be.
Can we get back to the original discussion now? This line of debate is highly off-topic and going nowhere.
“My sim was set on a planet, very different tectonically from Earth, in an unspecified corner of the universe. There you have it. It’s fantasy.”
Being set on another planet is not exactly impossible, that falls under the realm of Sci-fi thus far.
“And yes, you tried to change the discussion from one about light sabers in a Roman gladiator battle to one of magical swords in a fantasy setting, which was an attempt to change the discussion to fit your argument, rather than letting your argument fit the discussion. And it failed. Miserably.”
I’m not sure by what criteria this or anything else failed, since it’s a subjective debate on definitions. You mentioned a “lightsaber” and a “gladiator”, since we’d been talking about Fantasy, not historical re-enactment, I took this as a Fantasy setting gladiator. I pointed out that the idea of a light saber is not really scientifically possible, and seems more fantasy to me, backed that up by pointing out that Star Wars is a highly fantasy based series. Then I expanded this to say that a light saber could be a magic sword of some sort, and could easily fit in a fantasy sim. You agreed with me stating : “Something “like” a light saber could exist in a fantasy world. A flaming sword,”. I thought this point was therefore accepted and resolved.
Can we get back to making actual discussion points, or must I persist in re-explaining all of my earlier points?
“Besides the planetary position, there were other non-Earthly elements to my sim. It’s not worth going into all of them, but they were there. Magic, furries, and light sabers were not.”
As I stated before, planetary position isn’t fantasy. Life on other planets is a Science-Fiction trope, and doesn’t involve the “impossible”. Your sim doesn’t seem to exist anymore, so i’m at the mercy of your own descriptions of it to really debate the idea that it includes the impossible enough to be considered Fantasy. Besides, the status of your sim is irrelevant, this debate is more about the overall classification of fantasy as a genre, and what elements it may and may not include.
I’ve stated my exact position on that, (It must include something of the impossible/supernatural/magical to be considered fantasy) what’s yours?
“Well, you had no problem lying through your teeth and claiming I made a statement of fact, when, in fact, I had clearly stated I wasn’t sure about the truth of my statement.”
I was not lying, you only believe I’m lying, which is your opinion. I disagree with you there as well.
“If you’re going to troll here, at least break out with some clever and original tactics.”
I’m honestly debating you, that would be why my points do not work as trolling tactics.
Are you done with the personal attacks, can we get back on topic?
SlShapeshifter
Jun 2nd, 2011
Okay, let’s hope that I combo-break this argument and posit another reason that non-Gor sims may not allow furries:
I’ve heard of cases of furries that ignore the sim rules entirely and stomp right into a medieval fantasy sim in thier candy-arse colors, sporting cybernetic limbs and guns big enough that anyone looking at them thinks that they must be compensating for something, blantantly shoving themselves into the local RP without even learning what’s going on, then pulling the godsdamned race card when the sim staff has to deal with the loudmouth. Granted, these twits are a minority, but it’s a minority that’s hooked up to metaphorical speakers better suited to a Disaster Area concert, so when you deal with enough of these tards, you may feel justified in a ‘blanket ban’ rather than deal with the drama.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “If you were so unsure, why did you state it at all?”
Oh, now we have a whole new argument, don’t we? So, it starts out with you claiming I had stated it as fact. You then tried to use this blatant lie to advance your position, only to have me demonstrate beyond a shadow of a doubt to everyone that indeed it wasn’t stated as fact. Now, you’re trying to milk this some more by asking why it was stated at all if it wasn’t certain. Oh, a convenient switch of tactics. When the lie tactic blows up in your face, quickly switch tactics. Wow, you sure are desperate, aren’t you, We?
“Can we get back to the original discussion now?”
Sure, if you’re done being humiliated by your lies, we can move on.
“Being set on another planet is not exactly impossible, that falls under the realm of Sci-fi thus far.”
No, it doesn’t. The humans there originated there. No space ships. No tech. No awareness or consideration of any extraterrestrial life. It was a civilization like Earth’s early civilization believing itself to be the only one in the whole universe and its world being the center of that universe.
“this debate is more about the overall classification of fantasy as a genre, and what elements it may and may not include. ”
Please name a source for your information of what the classification of “fantasy sim” would include. If you have none, then will you admit that this is all based entirely on your own personal opinion with no authoritative source to back you up? Or will you try to lie your way out of that one too?
Oh, and don’t try to mold the conversation to fit your arguments by claiming we’re talking about the “fantasy genre.” This isn’t about any “fantasy genre.” It’s about sims in SL that call themselves fantasy RP sims or some similar phrase like that. I’m becoming all too familiar with your slimy little tactics, so I have to have this preventative disclaimers up front.
“I’m honestly debating you, that would be why my points do not work as trolling tactics. ”
No, you’re not. You’re a little troll. Nothing more. And a very unclever one at that.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We
Oh, and let me help you with your response, Okay?
When you ask me to stop with the personal attacks, your feigned innocence needs a bit more umph to be convincing. Here’s how it’s done….
You’d say: “I’m just having a debate here. I really don’t know why you feel the need to resort to these personal attacks. Can we please just have a civilized conversation?”
Then, you really grab the audience’s sympathy with one of these looks….
http://wtfcontent.com/img/130201055444.jpg
And that’s how your little troll game is done. Make no mistake about it, We. This girl can hold her own with the big trolls.
Yep
Jun 2nd, 2011
“that anyone looking at them thinks that they must be compensating for something,”
we all know the gor freaks are compensating for something. Most of them are so dorky in RL that only their mothers could love them.
Paul
Jun 2nd, 2011
“we all know the gor freaks are compensating for something. Most of them are so dorky in RL that only their mothers could love them.”
I love this kind of generalization. It is similar to the one that says “all girls in SL are actually fat old guys”
I am sure that believing these generalizations to be always true with no evidence in support helps with someone’s sense of superiority. In my personal experience, every girl from SL I have ever spoken to or met in SL turned out to be a real girl in real life. Go figure.
Paul
Jun 2nd, 2011
*correction: I meant to say “ever spoken to or met in RL…”
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“Oh, now we have a whole new argument, don’t we?”
That tends to be how debates work, yes.
“Sure, if you’re done being humiliated by your lies, we can move on.”
If you want to believe that sure, I think you’ve made up your mind that I’m a trolling liar pathetic man (I’ve never given any indication of gender) and I doubt much I could say would change your mind there. I stated my points on the subject, I don’t feel like revisiting them over and over just to have you persist in your opinion that I have somehow been “humiliated” and “defeated” by this or that I’m simply lying.
“No, it doesn’t. The humans there originated there. No space ships. No tech. No awareness or consideration of any extraterrestrial life. It was a civilization like Earth’s early civilization believing itself to be the only one in the whole universe and its world being the center of that universe.”
Like I said, I’m at a disadvantage here because I know nothing about your sim and it doesn’t seem to exist anymore, so all I know about it is the details you’re willing to give me, which seems to be minimal. So far it seems to be a historical revisionist sim, it’s on another planet, but that apparently has not much baring on the Roleplay or setting, as it seems to be treated as a copy of Earth with some geological differences and rolled back culturally. The distant planet/alien species falls more into Sci-fi, even if there’s no high tech or space travel, it certainly doesn’t fall into Fantasy, since life on other planets is not conventionally considered scientifically impossible. You mentioned some “other elements” that would be more fantastical, but you declined to describe them, so I couldn’t comment.
“Please name a source for your information of what the classification of “fantasy sim” would include.”
“Oh, and don’t try to mold the conversation to fit your arguments by claiming we’re talking about the “fantasy genre.”
My first post in this debate regarded the fantasy genre not sims. I responded by saying that talking animals have been a staple in human fantasies since humans first fantasized, not a staple in human fantasy sims. My subsequent points have been made to back up that idea of the fantasy genre, so I’m not sure where you get the idea that I would be referring to only fantasy sims.
So in terms of that, Wikipedia describes Fantasy genre in it’s first sentence as “Fantasy is a genre of fiction that uses magic and other supernatural phenomena as a primary element of plot, theme, or setting.” The Encyclopedia of Fantasy, contributed to by notable fantasy authors such as Neil Gaiman, states “The identifying traits of fantasy are the inclusion of fantastic elements in a self-coherent (internally consistent) setting, where inspiration from mythology and folklore remains a consistent theme”.
I’ll state this question again, since you ignored it last time, and it’s key to the debate:
I’ve stated my exact position on [The definition of the Fantasy Genre], (It must include something of the impossible/supernatural/magical to be considered fantasy) what’s yours?
The sense I’ve gotten from your position, is that you seem (Note the word) to believe that any sort of “furry” like creature (anthropomorphic animals, animals that can talk, animalistic monsters, shapeshifters like werewolves) are not a part of Fantasy. If you could state your position on the subject more clearly, we could work through this.
“And that’s how your little troll game is done. Make no mistake about it, We. This girl can hold her own with the big trolls.”
I am, of course, not trolling you, but if you truly believe I’m a troll, then why are you still engaging in debate? The best way to deal with trolls is to ignore them. These accusations of trolling and lying aren’t furthering the debate any.
Reader
Jun 2nd, 2011
Can we dispense with the butt-hurt now? It’s all getting rather boring and pathetic.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We
Why are you talking about fiction writing? What’s that got to do with sims in SL? And why are you trying to change the subject to fiction writing? Let’s try to stay on topic again.
So, yes, you have no authoritative source on what fantasy sims in SL should or should not contain. So, what the fuck makes you an expert?
You are a troll. And the reason I’m still here is because I’m enjoying watching you fall all over yourself here. This is entertaining to me to watch a troll fall flat on his face.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“Why are you talking about fiction writing? What’s that got to do with sims in SL? And why are you trying to change the subject to fiction writing? Let’s try to stay on topic again.”
I was talking about the Fantasy Genre as a whole, as I have been the entire debate. The relation to sims in SL is if it is a “fantasy” sim, then it has some link to the Fantasy genre as a whole, and therefore operates by the same basic rules. So a sim that had no fantasy in it couldn’t really call itself a “fantasy sim”, (Well they COULD, it just would be incorrect).
“So, what the fuck makes you an expert?”
Who said I was an expert? I have an opinion, you have an opinion, we debate and try to reach a consensus, that’s how a debate works.
“You are a troll. And the reason I’m still here is because I’m enjoying watching you fall all over yourself here.”
I’m glad you’ve decided you know more about my intentions than I do but, trying to get back on topic, I’ll pose the question again for the third time:
I’ve stated my exact position on [The definition of the Fantasy Genre], (It must include something of the impossible/supernatural/magical to be considered fantasy) what’s yours?
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We “The relation to sims in SL is if it is a “fantasy” sim, then it has some link to the Fantasy genre as a whole, and therefore operates by the same basic rules.”
What’s your source for this claim? Please provide an authoritative source that says that fantasy sims in SL must relate to the fantasy genre in fiction.
“I’ve stated my exact position on [The definition of the Fantasy Genre], (It must include something of the impossible/supernatural/magical to be considered fantasy) what’s yours?”
Don’t have one. I was never talking about the fantasy genre. That was a topic you decided to discuss. Not sure why because I wasn’t discussing it. And I’m still not.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“What’s your source for this claim? Please provide an authoritative source that says that fantasy sims in SL must relate to the fantasy genre in fiction.”
Common sense I suppose? If you want to call your sim a “Fantasy Sim” you should probably have some fantasy. There’s nothing stopping you from making a hardcore Sci-fi sim and calling it “A Leprechaun fantasy sim” I suppose, but it’ll be inaccurate and you’ll get a lot of confused visitors.
“Don’t have one. I was never talking about the fantasy genre. That was a topic you decided to discuss. Not sure why because I wasn’t discussing it. And I’m still not.”
I highly doubt someone who claims to have run a Fantasy sim has no personal definition of what “Fantasy” means as a genre.
I’ve been discussing very clearly about Fantasy Genre as a whole the entire time, I’m not sure why you’d think otherwise.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@ We
So, in fact you have absolutely no authoritative source for this belief of yours, and it’s based entirely on your own personal opinion.
Now, we come to the all important question.
Why should any sim owner care whether or not your approve of how they describe their sim? I know I don’t. Why should anyone else?
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“So, in fact you have absolutely no authoritative source for this belief of yours, and it’s based entirely on your own personal opinion.”
Well, all definitions of the classification of Fantasy are going to be personal opinion, since there’s no fact to be found. I cited two sources defining the fantasy genre as I had described, so far you’ve declined to even give a rudimentary definition of your own in the contrary, so I can only assume you agree.
“Why should any sim owner care whether or not your approve of how they describe their sim? I know I don’t. Why should anyone else?”
Well, if you have a sim that is say, a science-fiction sim, describing itself as “medieval fantasy”, the sim owners may notice some confused guests, and may hurt their traffic. Otherwise, there’s no reason in particular, and I never claimed anyone should listen to what I think anymore than someone is willing to, hence why this is a debate, not an ultimatum, though you seem to be having trouble grasping the concepts of debate.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We
“Well, if you have a sim that is say, a science-fiction sim, describing itself as “medieval fantasy”, the sim owners may notice some confused guests, and may hurt their traffic.”
Yes, but that’s other people’s opinions of the sim and has nothing to do with your approval or lack thereof of how they describe their sim. So, in fact, there’s absolutely no reason to lend your approval any significance at all. So, I remain unconvinced that your personal opinion of how I describe my sim matters in the least.
To soften the sting of your failure, I offer you this consolation prize: the last word. Wear it in good health.
We
Jun 2nd, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“Yes, but that’s other people’s opinions of the sim and has nothing to do with your approval or lack thereof of how they describe their sim. ”
O…kay… since that was never my stated point, nor did I ever claim that anyone should consult me to see if their sim is labeled properly, I’m not sure how you’ve gotten to this line of reasoning. I was simply debating you on what could be considered a part of the fantasy genre, not demanding you pay attention to my ideas. You chose to respond and continue debating.
My point was in response to your comment: ”Well, if you have a human fantasy world, talking animals clash like someone using a laser gun in a medieval setting.”, I said that “Talking Animals” have been a part of fantasy since the beginning, and are thus very clearly a part of what someone would define as Fantasy. From there, every point was regarding to what I think is and isn’t considered a part of the fantasy genre.
From there on, you ignored my points, made up bizarre and irrelevant challenges, tossed strawmen arguments at me, broke down to ad hominem attacks before making up a debate that has nothing to do with anything I said, then declaring yourself winner.
So…uh, good job?
Before you go off to declare yourself Queen of Spain, would you mind answering the one question I have that (god forbid) is relevant to the debate topic?
What would you define the Fantasy genre as?
Nelson Jenkins
Jun 3rd, 2011
THIS IS A 5-YEAR-OLD ARTICLE.
STOP IT.
Dontspill McGinnis
Jun 3rd, 2011
Game, set and match to “We”
Straight sets victory I’d say with no games conceded.
The Anti Herald
Jun 3rd, 2011
But it’s so much fun keeping a trash article thread going – there’s nothing else worth posting on here! This whole site is a failure anyway, so who cares?
paul
Jun 3rd, 2011
would the Herald PLEASE give us something else to argue about???
Reader
Jun 3rd, 2011
No doubt!
Watching this back-and-forth butt-hurt fest got old really quick.
Take that sh!t to Jerry Springer’s show for crying out loud.
or laughing out loud!
Dontspill McGinnis
Jun 3rd, 2011
But you all keep checking back..
admit it, you’re hooked!
Senban Babii
Jun 3rd, 2011
@Dontspill
“But you all keep checking back..
admit it, you’re hooked!”
Pfff I don’t, I….ahh crap
Reader
Jun 3rd, 2011
I check back to see if any new stories are getting posted or any “valuable” comments show up on anything in general. It’s not hard to look over at the margin and see the back-and-forth on this particular butt-hurt-fest and see it’s turning into a circle jerk – the stacking of comments in rapid fire succession is plain to see even if you don’t read all the comments – which I personally don’t. Not interested. But interjecting a comment to stop the blabber IS easy to do and I freely admit partaking in that minimal effort.
Don’t get the “hooked” butt-hurt types confused with the innocent bystanders.
We
Jun 3rd, 2011
Come for the tits, stay for the asinine long-winded debates about bullshit.
Reader
Jun 3rd, 2011
“Come for the tits, stay for the asinine long-winded debates about bullshit.”
Sorry to hear that. Perhaps it would make more sense if it were the other way around, but the prob is, it’s all fake anyhow. How bouts you go try the real thing (both cases) and report back?
Persephone Bolero
Jun 4th, 2011
Well, they used to actually post articles on this site on a regular basis. Now, weeks go by with nothing.
Dontspill McGinnis
Jun 4th, 2011
I’d write some posts for them, but the desk is too high for me.
Senban Babii
Jun 4th, 2011
When I was working backwards through the old articles to put that list of all the Post 6 articles together, I took the chance to flick through some of the really old articles. There was a time when the Herald was publishing four or five articles every week. They were usually relatively short but there was a constant flow to keep your interest. And they covered a wider variety of virtual worlds (including EVE Online Persephone lolol). Over time this reduced down to two a week, now we’re lucky if we get one a fortnight. I honestly think the downfall came about because of trying to appeal to the hacktivists, courting the wrong audience for purely personal interest. I just don’t think the Herald was the right venue for that subject.
Compare to say New World Notes. Okay it’s more technical, less sticking-it-to-the-man, less irreverent but there are solid, interesting articles being written virtually every day. Since I checked yesterday, three new pieces have appeared. THREE. Someone out there is making an effort. Even Prok makes more effort for crying out loud.
The Herald needs a proper team of staff writers who actually go out and, you know, engage with the world and bring back news of the day’s events. Keep the tongue-in-cheek humour, keep the tabloid sensationalism, keep the ranty comments (because let’s face it, that’s why we all really read the Herald) and get it working again. Go out, find the good bloggers and get them writing for the Herald as well as their own blogs. You’d get decent articles from people actively engaged in the various worlds and no one would have too high a workload trying to find articles because there’d be a team effort. Just make it so that the staff writers had to provide a minimum number of articles each month or similar. This really isn’t cynosural field theory.
But I don’t see it happening, do you?
hobo kelly
Jun 4th, 2011
the Herald is simply a reflection of the dying state of Second Life in general. SL is so mindnumbing boring these days that maybe 2 stories a month is all there is. build a grid crasher or something that will get whats left of the population all up in arms and frothing and i betcha the Herald shows up.
me personally, I’m off to the snowy hills to test a theory I’ve been working on… If one of those pesky Ann Otool Olander vehicles rams into Prokofy Neva who is out there driving a Tank around at the exact time Proky fires off a Tank Round, the combined energy of the collision may exceed the Plank Constant and Prokofy Neva will erupt into a particle fountain of Crazy Cat Lady Talking Hand Puppets and I’m gonna be there to get mine…