The Problems of Gor – Part 1
by Pixeleen Mistral on 27/11/06 at 6:06 pm
Philosophy, Society, Conditioning
[editors note: Our Gorean-themed week continues with an abridged version of a notecard written by Artemis Fate -- contact Artemis for a complete copy of the 'Problems of Gor'.]
by Artemis Fate
Gor is an alternate-world detailed in John Norman’s “Chronicles of Gor”, a twenty-six novel series that combines philosophy and erotica with science-fiction. It is a highly detailed setting in terms of wildlife and customs, borrowing from various ancient cultures such as the Greek, Native American and Viking cultures. Advanced technology is present, but the life of the humans on the planet remain otherwise primitive to the modern day. Followers of the philosophies and lifestyle outlined in the books are called Goreans.
Gor has been a presence online for quite some time, but their exposure has been limited to places such as Usenet and private IRC channels. However, the Gorean culture has shifted towards more open communities. Many people were not aware of Gor until joining visual chat rooms such as the Palace, Active Worlds, and Second Life.
This has not been met without problems. It has been widely believed that Active Worlds was ‘taken over’ by Goreans. This came to pass as many Goreans were placed in charge of the community as ‘Peacekeepers’, the game masters of Active Worlds. Many reports of unfair treatment, attacks on criticism and strong promotion of Gor in the beginner areas have been made.
When it comes to Second Life, Gor first became widely known when the sim Port Kar went public in the spring of 2005. However, the Gorean community have been around for quite some time along the mainland and in private islands. There are now more than a hundred public Gorean locations in Second Life.
Gor Philosophy
“Strong men simply need women. This will never be understood by weak men. A strong man needs a woman at his feet, who is truly his. Anything else is less than his fulfillment. When a man has once eaten the meat of the gods he will never again chew on the straw of fools.”
– Explorers of Gor, page 12
Gorean philosophy is split between what is detailed in the books and the more common standards of the community. The main difference lies in that the books are not strictly sexual. The Master/Slave relationship is not the primary focus as most of the detail is given to the society of Gor at large.
Beyond defining the Master/Slave relationship, the books have made commentary on a somewhat diverse range of topics. These topics have included genetic superiority, the nature of citizenship and freedom and war, among other things. An anonymous author commented on that the stances taken on these kind of subjects as being remarkably similar to those of Hitler’s in Mein Kampf. As a result, some have classified Gorean philosophy as a form of nazism.
This is a key contrast as the Gorean community has placed its focus on the Master/Slave relationship as its main purpose and sometimes its only purpose.
Therefore we get into the quote above as a main aspect of Gorean community philosophy: Man wishes to dominate a woman and a woman wants to be dominated by a man. If a woman does not, she is weak. All women are inferior to men and can only be happy being owned by a man.
Gor Society
Generally, Gorean society in SL is made up as a series of strict rules. Some have involved themselves because these rules seem similar to heavy roleplay. To many roleplayers in Second Life, this is the only place to roleplay because few other communities exist for it.
Not only are the rules strict, but the punishments are severe. Failure to follow the rules of their society may result in being banned from the sim to having your character executed. Execution will also result in a banning from the sim..
In addition to rules and punishment, the Goreans run a slave market. The prices of slaves depend on how well ‘trained’ the slave is. Typically this can range from L$2000 to L$20,000, which is roughly $8 to $80 USD. Of course, there are cases where a slave may go for a higher price.
A man who is displeased by his slave will punish her her severely. This may take the form of harsh beatings or by outright killing her. Gorean executions can even take on the form of sexual torture in more extreme cases. A slave who tries to run away is pursued and often times eaten by a monster used for hunting.
Conditioning
As to be expected, the relationship dependency is skewed. Men are encouraged to treat their slaves like objects and women encouraged to give everything they have to men. This leads to problems when a Master no longer feels that his slave is of any use. A Master will simply sell the girl to someone else and get the money, he developed no huge relationship to the girl as much as you have a relationship with your car.
The girl on the other hand, is taught to be dependent and totally in love with her Master. To be sold to another so is a form of rejection. This sort of sting can be more mild, with the girl a little depressed at each time she’s traded off. However, some have gone into a full breakdown and have inflicted pain on themselves or others. While not every slave is sold without consent, those that have been will usually have a story that falls between these reactions.
This sort of dependency is only the surface of what conditioning Gorean slaves can be put through. To most starting out in Gor, it’s an innocent fantasy world of roleplay. Many would not even consider there being any possible mind conditioning or thought reform occurring. This is something that can and will be exploited.
Doublethink and Repetition
“Freedom permits a woman to live without a man. Slavery makes a woman need a mans touch… Slavery, of course, is the surest path by means of which a woman can discover her femininity. The paradox of the collar is the freedom which a woman experiences in at last finding herself, and becoming herself.”
– Magicians of Gor, page 160
“The great masses of people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. Especially if it is repeated again and again.”
– Adolf Hitler
George Orwell’s defined the term ‘doublethink’ in his novel 1984. Doublethink is the power of accepting two contradictory beliefs in one’s mind simultaneously. A popular doublethink slogan in his book is “Freedom is slavery, war is peace”.
For some slave girls in Gor communities, John Norman’s books are mandatory readings. Each book has the repeated theme that women are naturally slaves to men. The moral of every story is that neither men nor women can be happy unless they follow this nature. This is the big lie that is repeated again and again.
They state that “Slavery is freedom”. This is the direct flip of Orwell’s quote “Freedom is slavery”. As stated above, this is repeated throughout the books and written in as persuasive and romantic of a matter as possible. The intended goal of this mandatory reading is to drill home this sort of doublethink until you have a person honestly believing that “slavery is freedom”. This is an exceptionally effective form of control.
Seven Tactics of ‘Coercive Persuasion’
For a more professional look at this sort of conditioning, Dr. Margaret Singer has written an excellent piece on ‘coercive persuasion’. For the sake of simplicity, it’s best if the paper is summarized here. ‘Coercive persuasion’ is a method of slowly manipulating the way a person thinks and feels. It doesn’t happen over night and all seven tactics do not need to be used. But, in time, a person exposed to these tactics can be influenced and conditioned.
The seven tactics she’s outlined can be summarized as:
1. ‘Softening Up’ – First a victim is prepared by focusing them on REPEATED activities, ideas or senses. This is to make the person more receptive to further suggestion.
2. ‘Social support’ – By using rewards and punishments, the victim is separated from their friends and family who are not part of the group. Being part of the group is rewarded, spending time outside of it is punished. Making a person reliant upon the group for money and other needs helps this immensely.
3. ‘Censorship’ – Rules are put in place where certain thoughts are not allowed to be expressed. What can be said to an outsider from the group is also controlled, as is communication in general. Usually a group will come up with its own ‘language’ for describing things.
4. ‘Peer pressure’ – The group makes a constant, firm effort to convince a person to rethink their own beliefs and their past life. The victim is made to believe their past way of life is wrong and that they must fit into the group.
5. ‘Low self-esteem’ – The group seeks ways of breaking a person’s self-confidence and faith in their own judgement. The idea is to make a person not wish to act on their own and instead be guided by the group.
6. ‘Non-violent punishment’ – Anything from intense humiliation to loss of privilege, social isolation, loss of status, intense guilt, anxiety, manipulation and other techniques. This is all done to make the person afraid of disobeying.
7. ‘Threats’ – A victim is lead to believe that failing to fit into the group will mean terrible things. Not just punishment mentioned in tactic six, but things such as mental illness, drug habits, being poor and homeless, a miserable love life and general unhappiness.
– TO BE CONTINUED –
Chaz Maz
Mar 12th, 2009
Second Life: Land of the WEAK home of the BROKEN
First of all, I have been there, have done that. Had clubs, owned land, made friends, money, and fell in love. Second life on the surface, especially for the newbie and Entrepreneur/artist is a fun and cool place to make some friends, and make some money. It is looked at as a supercharged chat room, a video game. But the nature of its name is where the insidiousness is. As much of a second life (SL) as it might be, in order to operate you still have to use your Real Life (RL) abilities. You do not follow a different thought and emotional pattern when in SL. You can only use what you know in RL. But kidding yourself is one of the appeals of SL. You eventually get lost in it.
At first it is new and exciting. Like a new video game. Learning the functions that move your avatar around, visiting places and socializing with the natives. You are perfect, and you can fly. No sickness, no need for money (well not as much) and people don’t have bad breath and, as a “normal”, “intelligent” person, it is an interesting place to explore and learn. But it eventually becomes one of three things. 1. Boring, like a video game you have played over and over. 2. An environment to explore your creative ability to design and sell things. Or, 3 it consumes your psyche.
The first two are what they are; the third is the meat and potatoes of SL. This is the one that is more consistent. Do you really think the folks at Linden Labs are spending their free time on SL.? No, they are spending the money they are making in RL (SL is a business so it is RL for them) on RL things.
There comes a saturation point where you walk away or get sucked in. I will say this for the last time and it does not apply to you newbie’s, or the smart ones that are making money off the lonely. It is a place to hide from reality. It is a place where weak, lost souls go to escape from the depth and breadth of life. I will allow some latitude for you shut-ins. Some people have nothing else but the four walls of the room they are in. SL can provide a form of “human” entertainment that they otherwise would not be able to get. But, that just causes the shut-in to let go of their emotional self being even greater. This is a hard pill to swallow, no one wants to take a good look at them selves and most do not. But the covert nature of SL allows you to cut loose. Sort of the absolute power corrupts absolutely theory. People that stay too long get lost in it. And yes, justifying all the way, that it is just a game. For the predator, and a predator is weak by nature, it is a place to be free of thought and persecution. To dominate the weak that makes SL their home. And, it is a place for the weak to not be judged, a place that they can feel and accept that who they are is ok, even if it is with the few. Some people can handle the trials and tribulations of life, some can’t and they end up in SL. You start to see a symbiotic circle of relationships in SL. For the people designing objects to sell, they may not interact totally and directly with the person/s and, their sales may come from across the board. The newbie that is playing the “game” to the obsessed, but, the obsessed is a long term customer. Theses business individuals usually get in, add new product, convert their lindens to dollars or pounds and get out.
The tragedy is the weak and broken. Don’t roll your eyes, In the Real World we are always conned with flashy marketing to get us to buy something or believe something in order to buy a product. Magic cream or potion. Don’t kid yourself; Second Life is about making money. Making money off of what? Our loneliness and our lack of self worth in the real world. HELLO, McFly!! It is called Second Life.
It might be simple, you build a club, people come and visit or create a group, and you solicit for members. People get together and boom, you feel wanted and needed. Building your dream home in the clouds and littering your lawn with cool things like jets and swimming pools. That can make you popular. Walking in a park with your perfect Avatar girlfriend/boyfriend, no RL issues so it is a perfect relationship. That leads to good puppet sex. Mmmm nice. All this is accomplished by tugging on your weakness, your emotional frailty. Either you are not getting it in RL or are too afraid to face the truth of how to exist in RL. You can’t handle the truth and if you are a long term SL puppet, you just can’t handle life, Real Life. Don’t get me wrong, we all like to escape from time to time.
In some places it is much darker, like I said before, predators hunting the weak. The Gorean Master and the slaves that he takes control of. This one is unusual, in that the Master has total control over the slave. The “slave” giving not only total control of their Avatar, and who can communicate to them, but also, control as to when they will or will not talk to what they can wear. Believe me this does carry over to real life. Imagine the fun of kneeling next to your Avatar Master and saying nothing. Second life being nothing more then a place to be told what to do, serving fake food and ale. You want to call it guided, or taught? Hey, what ever floats your boat? I know just a video game, right? This setup just allows the predator to get in that persons head and develop a false sense of security. Tell that to your husband, wife, girlfriend, or boyfriend. Why you are glued to the PC instead of enjoying life, REAL LIFE. And, couples also get on there too, as couples, this is a nutty one. Worked hard all week, beautiful weekend, and, you both are on a computer, every free moment, building and designing that special home, having that child you never could have. (Yes, people do play the part of the child.) I find it unhealthy when instead of developing a better real life and real relationship in RL. You take that precious time and waste it. Yes, ok… You are free to do what you want. But there are plenty of damaged people on SL. And your fantasy could be causing them to loose sense of reality, along with your lost sense of reality. Their marriages, get funky, destroyed, their children get neglected. And you get a ridiculous God complex that makes you anti social in the Real World, which just plummets yourself deeper in to SL. Cha Ching! Sweet business you got Linden People.
You have the 50+ couple that spends every “free” moment in SL being the King and Queen. Oh, and so good to their obedient subjects. At their beckons call, at their total command. Or, the sexual perverts. Ok, my opinion….. That can now live out the fantasy of doing it with a farm animal. Or, kneeling down and being the public toilet. Sex is rampant in SL. The anonymous nature of your avatar is something too. You really do not know if the man is a woman or the woman is a man, plenty of men that are living out their desire to be a Transsexual, or a woman. Plenty of women that want to love another woman, so she hides in the body of a man. I guess what you don’t know won’t hurt you. Hey, no one is getting hurt, no aids. Nicey nice. The soul is willing but the flesh is weak. So, the wall that SL provides, allows for an easier transition to experiment. Sad part is as your getting deeper and deeper; you are getting more lost in fantasy then reality and they start to blend. Actually, you probably were lost between the two to begin with. Now you go out into the real world. Take a break; meet one of your SL friends. Break the rule, cross that line; remember SL and RL are supposed to be two different places. People meet up, some get married, the rare few. But mostly it is a letdown, disappointment, and harm to others. It is a dirty little secret. Who wants to tell people that you got into that trouble because you decided to meet your “make believe” friend?
Lips stay sealed, people get hurt. And in the end, the only place they feel right, the only place that people understand is right back on Second Life. CHA CHING!
Jupiter
Mar 15th, 2009
It is a fact that these men who participate in Gorean philosophy are absolute cowards in reality. I know this as I unfortunately met one, who couldn’t even admit his little secret for a long time. He made a small mistake of trying to play little mind games with me. Any form of confrontation from a woman (even just a minor question) makes them so uncomfortable they literally high tail it. One thing they need to realise is that they may find a woman who kneels to them, but you can bet that she is a sitting time bomb. Whatever has happened in her past to reduce her to a mans ‘slave’ will erupt in a very ugly manner at a later stage. These types of women are what can turn into Aileen Wuornos in the end. The whole Gorean lifestyle is purely for Misogynists against Feminists, both equally unbalanced and fanatical as the other. Both as distasteful to a balanced emotionally healthy individual. Would the Goreans like to see their Mothers, Daughters or Grandmothers treated in this manner? Healthy men would shudder at the thought. It is remarkable how many of these Gorean men have been through an ugly divorce – they should try and deal with it instead of jumping into a hate fuelled philosophy. I would think to be so full of hate and vengence doesn’t actually make for a very happy existence.
dragon
Mar 25th, 2009
Classic case of closet gays pissed off with women for not turning them on. Makes them feel better to treat them like animals and get the ‘well done old chap’ from the other retard masters. Come out the closet chaps, you might like yourself a bit more then.
boudewijn
Apr 5th, 2009
I readed the article and some of the reactions on it.
the smile and the frowning where fighting on my face i must admit , of course the smile won the fight
I am a gorean role player.
With some of the reactions in the back of my head i have to use capitols by the words role player i gues.
What wil say when i am in a gorean role play sim i try to act as a gorean how i see it.
Outside a gorean role play sim i am just a ordanairy guy who talks silly about cars sport and women as every man does.
In my eyes gor is not a live style .
When i readed the article about the banning problem i could not hold back a smile.
People get banned for griefing.
Wich means doing something else then what is in the borders of the role play, and of course loonetics who try to let the sim crash.
When a person is executed it is a role play execute wich means you are death for 24 hours or a litle longer depending on the rules who are written for that sim.
After that time the person can start again with his character.
As my character plays a slaver , i readed with interest the part about buying a slave.
It is treu that in some cases real lindens get payed for a kajira (( gorean slave girl))
Of course i cant speak for all gorean sims , so i give what i know from my own city (thor) and the citys i know , what are a lot.
this have a few reasons.
it are the city girls where people pay for ((city girls are slaves that belongs to the city).
a man want to own his own kajira and thus he goes to the kennel of the city to buy one.
The city charges him a amouth of money.
Why?
A city puted time in learning the woman who plays the character of a kajira .
The role of a kajira isnt a simple one and it takes a lot of time to learn it in a good way ((wich count for every role man or woman)).
And of course every city would have a lot of people who roleplay in the city.
when a strange man buy a kajira and leave the other day to a other city ((wich he can as the kajira belongs to him)the city will run empty.
The lindens who are payed are going to the tier of the sim , as all have the profits of it.
But the most of the kajirae are not buyed with real lindens the man and the woman often agree in im that they like eachother and play their role togheter.
i spended to much time on writing i gues grinnss.
Boudewijn Fredriksson ((contact me inworld -second life- when needed
Jenni
Jul 8th, 2009
Truthfully, I find the anti-Gor faction a bit overly hostile. I’m not into Gor, though I have read a few of the books. Didn’t like them.
Why do people feel the need to bash different lifestyles or hobbies? What people do online is entirely their own business. “Sucking in newbies”? Puh-leeze. Anyone stupid enough to get suckered into something they really don’t want deserves all they get. RL and SL alike. If they express the wish to get out and cannot (for whatever reason) then and ONLY THEN is it time to intervene.
Quite simple actually: As long as Gor-players leave others alone it’s between consenting adults (as far as that can be verified). The same as with everything in life. It’s with consent of all parties involved, it’s A-Ok. Everyone who feels the need to attack others is merely spreading hate. And as such… is in my book more dangerous than anything else on this planet.
JerStone
Jul 24th, 2009
I love liberals, who dominate the second life culture.
They look the other way when men marry men, where older man try to solicit young boys into sexual stuff, they shrug there shoulders when two guys marry one 16 girl saying “well each their own”
But when a group of consenting adults get together on a video game and role play out a culture and fantasy.. “it’s a sick cult that treats women like dogs ..” All of a sudden there is a right and wrong.
Never mind the fact is Gorean culter on sl is mostly female. Never mind is a female fantasy that is played on. Never mind it’s a “video game”
LOL they even quote Hilter (as if everything hilter ever said was evil—talk about playing on stereotypes) to smear it, smear what they don’t even understand.
Gor is like anything else, its what the people doing it want it to be. It’s a free for all role play. That some people enjoy.
I wont get into the philosophy and why, cause people that don’t get it wont understand and I wont waste my time.
Libra
Jan 17th, 2010
The problem isn’t the Gorean roleplay. The problem is the individual people that play the role play and how they play it. There are many types of Master/slave relationships wether it be Gorean, Vampire, BDSM, etc. All fantasy roleplay that has been intertwined with real life. Unfortunately mentalism is a huge part of human nature. Some people are just more creative with expressing it but we all are guilty of it in one form or another wether it be for a positive influence or a negative influence. My advice to anyone thinking about the roleplay or just advice in general is for the submissive; be smart, follow your insticts, if something doesn’t feel right then it probably isn’t. For the domminants, remember there is a real person behind the computer and every action you make will have some form of an affect on the person’s psyche and the outcome may not be how you would most likely predict. You possess a dangerous power and can cause major distress in somone’s life but it will hurt you even more in the end. Guilt and denial can fuck you up for life.
Gehenna
Feb 22nd, 2011
Truly the author of this topic has to be mistaken honestly here as the Gorean Community has been alive for well over 11yrs now. I’ve been in it since the Creation of the mIRC chat networks right to the html .
Second Life is a poor rendition of the universe in which is Gor I think. As many can claim such ordinates of being a member of a Caste without going through the training of such a caste and bring blasphemy out within their styles of roleplay.
I for one like the roleplay element in the HTML rooms. Its more one on one creativity. If there is a problem in Gor look not to Gor but whom have interpeted in the wrong ways. But look to the inner community that live out the philosophies and mystical well beings of such places….
Tessa
Mar 14th, 2011
@dragon,
>Classic case of closet gays pissed off with women for not turning them on. Makes them feel better to treat them like animals and get the ‘well done old chap’ from the other retard masters. Come out the closet chaps, you might like yourself a bit more then.
Even though you’re obviously trying to take jabs at straight men, I still find this comment remarkably homophobic. Men who get turned on by being powerful become Doms or Masters, women who get turned on that way become Dommes or Mistresses — and those of us who like to submit to them (whether IRL or online) are awfully glad they’re around.
People who are into Male Master / female slave fantasize about a whole world made up of people like them. As far as I can tell, people of different orientations do the same thing.
People who really can’t tell the difference between fantasy and reality are mentally ill.
lol
Mar 14th, 2011
I wonder how many of the women are actually men. Tits or else.
Magdalena Siemens
May 29th, 2011
Sorry
But that article is very biased and overly hostile to a harmless group of role players. Gor is nothing more than any other role play community: a fantsy world in which it’s fans immerse via role play.
In fact , Gorean role players do make a explicit distincion between what we call IC (in character) and OOC (out of character). WE (yes I am one of them) do not use tactics to draw poeple into some kind of dependence or a cult a sect or anything like that.
We just play a game, no more no less.
Of course I am aware of the fact that there is the odd idiot out there who might manipulate people into whatever sillyness he is up to. But that happens in every genre and in every community. To brush that all over the Gor role player is just not fair nor is it good journalism.
Please have a look at my blog. I write there on a regular basis about Gorean role play
http://www.magdalenasiemens.com
Maggie
Dontspill McGinnis
May 29th, 2011
Maggie, you do realise you are commenting on a 5 year old post?
Anonymous
May 30th, 2011
GOR is a great RolePlay, and always will be, But Smiggles Decuir, Johanna Lagerlof, Zammy Ziskey, Sisters OF Hura, and along with god knows how many connections in GOR in 2009 all supported the USE OF Copy Bot on a estate called Doomed Isle which was later renamed Talbot Isle, or Talbot Island. Zammy Ziskey finally supposely removed all the griefers, but who knows what they are currently doing it is said they are still supporting people like Dirty Dikes who stole over 50 Truth Hawks hairs.
The proof was sent all around all over the Interwebs even the people who claimed they did not support the copy theft were caught wearing stolen skins from this one store I hear of cant rember the name but they denied it all yet they were caught right there same estate Smiggles Decuirs groups were on and all.
GOR Can be a fun world, and most the Estates that Date Back to 2005, or are original are great, but when you get people and newfags into gor like this people who were responsible for hacking the First Version of the G1 meter until a person I know pushed to get them to upgrade it to V2 which is way better and more secure, but all that work cuz of Smiggles Decuirs groups meh should be removed from SL.
Linden Lab needs to remove people who are like this and have connections like Such from Second Life, and lets not forget about Zfire Xue and Skills Hak.
Nephum
May 30th, 2011
Dontspill, the relevance of the post is not diminished by it being 5 years old, hence comments ranging from several different years. As such, don’t knock Maggie in specific for doing something several others have done in the past. Especially if you aren’t going to say anything constructive.
That aside, I feel as if there will (and have) always been mixed emotions about John Norman and his Gorean Saga. Frankly, if you look at it from a purely pragmatic standpoint, a lot of the ideas he expresses within his works are, by and large, fairly possible. Let’s take, for example, one of the binding principles of the Gorean world: that, deep inside, a woman will always want to submit to a man, and thus find the true woman within her and, though slave, be free.
Obviously, there will be antagonists to this idea. Namely, feminists who believe women are superior to men; though, generally, most rational people would agree this is a false statement. However, look at it from a different light: to some, this idea, and the philosophy behind it, are quite plausible. In fact, they are the way they wish to conduct their lives. And they will continually espouse these ideas as truth. For the sake of argument, I will provide some basic (and rather crude, if I say so myself) evidence to support this.
Let us look back, first, to the ancient times of human kind, back in those days when we did not even know of the world, of the written word, much less the spoken one. Back to the times of the Neanderthal, the most primitive of our ancestors. It is in this time, you will note, that this philosophy was largely the way of life. Granted, we can’t know for sure since we cannot time travel, but again for the sake of argument, let us operate under the assumption that we could know. It was in these times the world of the primordial male, the one who hunted, who brought back to the caves the food, the supplies, fended off animals, enemies, etc. Would not a female, who desired to be protected, cared for, needed for something, want to submit herself to such a male, that he may wish to keep her about and offer her the protective guard of his strength?
This is not to say women are inferior to men. That is simply not true, and it’s one of the points many point out in Norman’s work that I don’t actually see, and if it’s there, I wholeheartedly disagree with it. But look at this from a purely anatomical standpoint – women were simply not designed the same as men. One cannot live without the other, however. Men were built for physical tasks – combat, work. Women were not built for such. Such traits were selectively bred against in the process of natural selection, lest the entire race kill itself off. Thus, following that process, if could be said that nature itself made females of a weaker sort (though NOT, it should be noted, inferior) than males. In this way, the males would, by instinctual drive, want to protect the females of their species with everything they have, and in so doing would release their primal side, which the female would recognize and wish to submit to in order to garner the necessary protection.
Most would probably disagree with my entire standpoint above. I would then, however, draw your attention to, say, a wolf pack. Within the structure of the pack, one dominant male is recognized by the whole as the alpha male, with the rest falling in line behind him, and the females of the pack submitting themselves to he, who is the strongest. In this way, also, Norman’s points can be upheld in and of the fact that the Gorean women submit themselves to strong, dominant men, not unlike in a wolf pack. Should the alpha falter or become weak, his pack would slay him, and another would take his place. However, the role filled by the alpha is necessary, for order keeping, for direction, for stability. In much the same way, should a male falter or fail, he is swept away by society, and replaced with one more capable of stemming the tide. And if you think yourself above being compared to a wolf, or any other creature, forget not that you, as are we all, animals, while only slightly more intelligent, perhaps.
Having digressed sufficiently from the main point, let us now return to it. Will there always, somewhere, be a woman who feels the need, burning like fire within her, to submit to a man completely, giving herself wholly into his service and pleasure? Certainly. Is this the secret state of all women? Certainly not. Can one learn something about one’s self from doing something they never thought they were capable of? Invariably. In this sense, then, so too may a man wish to submit himself wholly to the service and pleasure of a woman, for women can, and most certainly do, have that spark of dominant power within them, and can take full advantage of it, though certainly do not as often as men do. Let us also not forget that Gor is a fictional world, and thus all the things that happen there are purely fictitious, and those who wish to drag the conflict into our own world have terrible grasp of what reality is.
I myself believe a great many of the things John Norman expresses in his books – that women are graceful, primal and beautiful, passionate, deep, maelstroms of emotion and expression, and men will hopelessly throw themselves into those maelstroms, if only to understand them better, even knowing they will fail. That somewhere, deep down, every woman wants to be free, that she wishes to throw off the chains of society that have been place on her, and if that defying of society comes in the form of submitting herself to a man, then the more power to her. Could it not be said, then, that the woman who submits herself to a man is the most confident, self-respecting, free, and in touch with herself type of woman? Many would argue no, but I’m sure there are some who would grudgingly agree here.
We men, on the other hand, are a rather simple lot, the more in touch with our animal side, swinging from that extreme to the heights of cold, unfeeling logic. We, when compared to such a female, would seem rather plain and two dimensional. Perhaps it is from that difference that the need to dominate arises – by dominating a female, or at least being together with one, a man may enrich his own life with her passion, her chaotic emotion, and at the same time both spark her passions with his lusts, and temper her wild emotions with his calm logic. The two sexes, them, are absolutely and invariably connected and joined, and those who wish to create barriers to this, or make it not so, are misguided and cannot see the whole picture, the beauty of the design within nature. It is in this way, then, that it could be said that lesbian and homosexual relationships can never lead to the truest form of fulfillment, the kind that renders the soul complete, since one of the two halves necessary for such a union will be missing, and one will be in abundance. Such matters are always debatable, however, and most likely always will be.
I am fairly certain I will be called sexist with this post – indeed, I am counting on it, for that will in some cases prove me right – but it should be known that I have nothing but the utmost respect and admiration, even adoration, for the fairer sex. I myself am a Dominant, but I thank my submissives every day for the gift they give to me, that of their submission, and the beauty of it is nearly enough to make you weep. There are some who criticize the Gorean way of life as treating women as nothing, no better than dogs – in our world too, this happens daily, with men never realizing the precious gift that is the female gender, never once realizing the beauty and fragility of the other, essentially, side of themselves.
However, by and large, and very subtly, the slaves of Gor, even while fictitious, who many in our world would raise the red flag of mistreatment and pity for, are actually treated with more respect and desire, even love, than some of the women of our world.
I am no sexist – I am a pragmatist, and a realist. I realize that many of the principles in Norman’s work could actually work in our own lives, but would never be accepted, excepting small groups of like-minded people. I am adverse to the utter mistreatment of women – let it be know that I do not believe in EVERY part of Norman’s work. However, I also realize that many of the things in Norman’s work are simply mechanisms of control, and can be replaced with any number of control mechanisms, keeping the machine rolling constantly on.
To put it simply, those who argue most strongly against Norman and Gor are those who would, damning all others, see their ideals and opinions be set above all others, regardless of how others feel. Gor is a rich cultural experience, and if people wish to partake of all of it’s diverse pleasures, that is their prerogative. Those who wish to criticize it, keep your opinions to yourself, or others who think like you. Others who wish to ignore it an all it’s facets, certainly have the right to do so. In the end, the ideas expressed in the Saga can be debated to the ends of the earth with no conclusion, as can Norman’s own standpoint and belief system. However, it is a losing and pointless argument on all counts, as they are his opinions, and if you do not like them, do not read them. To that end, if you do not like my opinions, also do not read them. Thank you for your time, though, if you did read them, and did not feel the flame of rage burning inside you once done. It is not my goal to anger anyone.
Magdalena Siemens
May 30th, 2011
Hi
No I didn’t. Thats funny actually. But it’s content is still relevant evens o some things certainly have changed in the meantime.
I have to answer when I read general bashing of Gorean role players, ist a reflex…
Have Fun
Maggie
Yep
May 30th, 2011
Gor roleplay is harmless?
I bet that you will have a hard time convincing the 24 year old girl in this story or the jury that will convict the freaky gorean.
http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/04/21/1634984/police-hope-other-victims-of-tacoma.html?storylink=rss
Nelson Jenkins
May 30th, 2011
@ Magdalena Siemens & Yep
The problem is not that Gor roleplay is harmful in itself to women. It’s basically the same thing as prostitution – women (or men dressed as women) consent to having horny guys ravage their bodies for a cash payoff (or, in this case, just for the hell of it). As long as it’s consentual (which it certainly is in SL) there is no real problem with it. The problem lies in those that are unable to distinguish between SL and reality in this regard.
Hauff wasn’t inherently instable, though. Had he not known about the Gor novels, he certainly wouldn’t have done this. So are the Gor novels to blame? Partially. Again, Gor roleplay isn’t harmful in itself. If Hauff’s brain wasn’t wired to snap like this, he (as would most people) would not have tortured women in his garage. So the blame rests partly on him as well.
The real question is, does this mean Gor roleplay is bad? Not necessarily. I’m fine with letting people do whatever they like in the bedroom as long as it’s consentual. If some woman (or, as it usually is, a man playing as a woman) wants to get their rocks off by being someone’s slave, that’s fine and dandy, and I have no right or reason to stop them. We just need to be aware – as does everyone – that these activities have a tendency to go wrong, and you should choose your partners carefully if you’re not going to stick to just one.
That being said, let me state my personal opinion on Gor roleplay: it’s abhorrent, it’s disgusting, it’s plaguing Second Life, it’s killing the game, and I wish it were gone, as do practically all of my friends.
Yep
May 30th, 2011
“it’s abhorrent, it’s disgusting, it’s plaguing Second Life, it’s killing the game, and I wish it were gone, as do practically all of my friends.”
I agree and…
Go getem tiger
bod
May 30th, 2011
We *are* talking about *adults* here right?
You know those members of society considered to be allowed to make their own decisions. Those who can decide to smoke or drink or join the army or go rock climbing.
Ironically the anti-gor person and a few of the similar-minded posters are also of the “dom” mindset. The only difference being they want to make the rules that you can’t play gor because in their opinion it’s sick.
If people want to spend their whole weekend in SL then who are you to say otherwise? People are free to make their own decisions whether *you* consider those decisions good or bad ones.
Like anything else in one’s leisure time, there are those who take SL way more seriously than others. Are you going to legislate against people who fanatically collect baseball cards next or *shoes* or whatever? Gimme a break.
For the record I consider the whole master/servant thing to be boring and nonsensical. I can’t get into being a domme because it’s too demanding of my time and I can’t get into being a servant because I burst out laughing every 10 seconds. It’s entertaining for five minutes and then it gets old. I like SL for the chat and for the really pretty sims and just dressing up my avatar like I’m playing barbie.
Go to Ahern on a saturday night and listen to the drunk old guys posting and pretending to fight over the “young hotties”. Entertainment at it’s best, lol.
Dontspill McGinnis
May 30th, 2011
The Gor stuff is a little weird in my opinion.
I stopped reading the books at number 6 even as a teenager, because the writer had obviously run out of story ideas and was filling the pages with his own sexual fantasy. (…and he didn’t have any Dwarves in lead roles..pffffft.)
If people in SL want to do that stuff and they have their own sims to do it in, (which they do), I can’t see anyone having any reasonable grounds for complaint.
lolol
May 30th, 2011
The Gor stuff is a little weird in my opinion.
the fat sweaty betty’s and dorks need a place to feel like they’re wanted.
had enough
May 30th, 2011
gor geeks are p-whipped losers in real life
fararden
May 31st, 2011
You blame Gor books for creating rapists and there are plenty of violent criminals out there who don’t read Gor books. You might as well blame all the violence on tv, the internet, and video games too for all the violent crimes that are commited. A psychopath is a psychopath and they will commit violent crimes regardless
of what they read in a book or watch on tv.
Yep
May 31st, 2011
“We *are* talking about *adults* here right?
You know those members of society considered to be allowed to make their own decisions. Those who can decide to smoke or drink or join the army or go rock climbing.”
Sure as long as their actions do not degrade or encourage others to look down upon others of any group as any thing less than human.
But I can understand why some weakling in rl whose little 9 year old sister bullies them would want to become a gorean master in SL.
At0m0 Beerbaum
May 31st, 2011
people are still commenting on a 5 year old article?
Dontspill McGinnis
May 31st, 2011
@ At0mo
“people are still commenting on a 5 year old article?”
I did try pointing this out…
@ Nephus
“Dontspill, the relevance of the post is not diminished by it being 5 years old, hence comments ranging from several different years. As such, don’t knock Maggie in specific for doing something several others have done in the past. Especially if you aren’t going to say anything constructive.”
You are so far off with that opening paragraph, that I didnt feel that your lengthy post would contain anything relevant to the recent thread, so i didn’t bother to read any further.
Judging by the lack of direct comments, I wasn’t alone.
I wasn’t “knocking” Maggie. I was merely pointing to the age of the post.
I gather from your defensive stance that you are a Gorean Role Player yourself, well, good for you.
Just make sure you wash your hands before typing anything else.
Senban Babii
May 31st, 2011
I don’t log into SL anymore so I’m not really in a position where I can legitimately comment on how others use the platform.
But if I *did* still log into SL, my comment would be “All Goreans should be drowned in a big bucket before being ground up and processed as reconstituted slurry and then fed to pigs”.
And if I *did* still log into SL, I’d probably go on to add that the real problem I have with Goreans is not the misogynistic crap they espouse based on some fourth-rate hack literature but the fact that they force it into everyone else’s face, outside of their own areas. I mean take me. I roleplay being an axe-wielding homicidal maniac. If I wander into a Gorean sim and start typing
/me lops off your head with a big rusty axe and then sticks a flashlight up the stump of your neck to make your eyes light up
then they quite rightly would be annoyed and yet when they wander into public areas, continue to act in character and start talking to people as if they are part of their roleplay and trying to recruit new people then they are no different than the damn vampires and their bite requests.
But thankfully I don’t still log into SL, so I’ll keep my thoughts to myself
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2011
“That being said, let me state my personal opinion on Gor roleplay: it’s abhorrent, it’s disgusting, it’s plaguing Second Life, it’s killing the game, and I wish it were gone, as do practically all of my friends.”
This from a furry.
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2011
I ran a non-Gorean medieval/fantasy RP sim for two years and never once had Goreans come and try to force their lifestyle on me. Not once. In fact, the people that caused the most problems were often furries. They feel they can just walk into anyone’s sim and start RPing. And when you explain to them that you run a human sim, they pull the victim card and call you a racist. They are, by far, the most disrespectful people in SL.
So, when one condemns Gor, I really just have to laugh.
Senban Babii
May 31st, 2011
@Persephone
“They feel they can just walk into anyone’s sim and start RPing.”
Genuine question now. What exactly does “furry roleplay” look like? I mean I used to see furries around and about, I was friends with more than a few over the years and not one of them ever tried to sniff my butt. So I’m not quite sure exactly what you mean by “furry roleplay”. Admittedly apart from visiting Furnation once and Luskwood once (both whilst trying to research for the Herald) I never really hung out with furries in their natural habitat. In general areas though they just acted the same as everyone else. Goreans didn’t though. Goreans attempted to push their roleplay on people. I’m sure other people’s experiences will vary but personally I saw it a lot. I’d have some slaver (or whatever they’re called) come up to me, start telling me that I was now his slave. I’d politely say no thanks and then they’d start gettin abusive. So when I responded in kind they’d go off on one at me.
The problem with Goreans is that they don’t seem able to respect boundaries. They bleed their roleplay across into other people’s lives and expect you to simply accept it. And when you ask them to respect boundaries, they get abusive. That’s my personal experience and I can only speak for myself.
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2011
@Senban I’ve heard of Goreans doing this, but I have never seen it myself. So, I must doubt that it’s as common as people claim, especially nowadays. I rarely see Goreans outside their natural habitat anymore, much less trying to push their ideas on anyone.
As far as furry roleplay, I mean the furries come to your sim and want to play a character with their furry avis. Well, if you have a human fantasy world, talking animals clash like someone using a laser gun in a medieval setting.
Senban Babii
May 31st, 2011
@Persephone
“I’ve heard of Goreans doing this, but I have never seen it myself. So, I must doubt that it’s as common as people claim, especially nowadays. I rarely see Goreans outside their natural habitat anymore, much less trying to push their ideas on anyone.”
I can only speak for my own experiences of course. I’m sure other people have had different experiences. In a place as large as SL that’s inevitable. It’s also possible that it doesn’t happen as much anymore. Things ebb and flow. One minute you can’t move for vampires, the next you can’t move for *insert latest annoying subculture. Like I say, I can only go by my own experiences between 2007 and 2010. I don’t really count 2011.
“As far as furry roleplay, I mean the furries come to your sim and want to play a character with their furry avis. Well, if you have a human fantasy world, talking animals clash like someone using a laser gun in a medieval setting.”
Okay I understand what you’re meaning now. I thought you were trying to say that furries would come in and half way through a dramatic political negotiation between the king and his evil half brother, would start humping the princess’ leg XD
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that side of it though (we’ve discussed it before I recall?) I’ve never seen the value in being overly strict when it comes to roleplay. Yes the sim owners and to a degree the community set the rules for that sim but I just can’t personally see that someone wanting to play as a furry should be something to exclude them. Furries as playable character races have been part of roleplaying games from the very start. Traveller has Aslan (cats) and Vargr (canines). Runequest has the ducks. D&D has so many playable furry races I can’t even start to list them. I mean, this is Second Life, it doesn’t have to be as limited as First Life. If someone wants to use playing a furry to gain an unfair advantage within the gameplay then fine, the DM should control that. But if it’s just someone doing their thing, I really can’t get my head round why it’s a problem. But that’s just me, I’m not passing judgement.
Reader
May 31st, 2011
“I don’t log into SL anymore so…”
Broken record.
Doesn’t matter though Sen, because you are serious business about SL none-the-less, so you might as well start logging in again anyhow.
Ya know?
Senban Babii
May 31st, 2011
Hehe I know, terrible isn’t it? Although I’m more srs bsns from the outside looking in than the inside looking out on account of getting paid by a university to know about these things. Sadly this means occasionally having to have educated and informed opinions about stuff.
I know I know, sucks doesn’t it? And of course I apologise for sharing some of those opinions here occasionally, you know, in a blog that’s actually about the subject. God it’s appalling! I can’t apologise enough, do you forgive me?
The sad thing is I actually have to log in for a few minutes right now so I can answer an IM. Then I’ll be going out for dinner on a riverboat with family and friends. FML
Dontspill McGinnis
May 31st, 2011
Lets hope for some fresh news (or gossip) for tomorrow!
Orca Flotta
May 31st, 2011
I ran a non-Gorean medieval/fantasy RP sim for two years and never once had Goreans come and try to force their lifestyle on me.
@ Persephone:
As far as I understand it from the Gor novels (yes, I read 2 of those terribly bad boks, found them in a box when I cleaned the garage we’re sharing with neigbors), they are set in a timezone earlier than medieval. From descriptions of clothes, cities and machines I’d say as ancient as bronze age. At least some time b.c. … if you compare to develpment on planet earth, which you can’t and shouldn’t do aynway. So it’s indeed more Conan than Henry IIIV. and absolutely no need for them to visit a medieval RP sim.
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2011
“and absolutely no need for them to visit a medieval RP sim.”
Wrong. The sim required no historical accuracy with regards to dress, and this was made clear in the rules. It said that people should generally dress in attire previous to the Industrial Era.
On the other hand, the rules contained this clause: “This is a human only sim. No furries.”
I know that’s a bit confusing, but it means we were a human sim and didn’t allow furries. They didn’t like this so much.
Despite my flexibility on dress, Goreans rarely visited my sim. We tended to be a much more matriarchal society and it just didn’t appeal to many of them. So, they didn’t bother coming. But furries? The fact we didn’t allow them made the place all the more a prime destination for them. I just don’t get it.
Yep
May 31st, 2011
It is roleplay….. just RP the furries are human.
Persephone Bolero
May 31st, 2011
@Yep “It is roleplay….. just RP the furries are human.”
Yeah, and we could just RP that the Ferrari is a stagecoach and the light saber is a rapier. And why even bother putting up any buildings? Just RP that the buildings are all over the sim. And why even have avatars at all? It’s RP, after all. We can just IM each other and RP that we’re on SL in a roleplay sim.
Yep
Jun 1st, 2011
Persephone Bolero
I am used to old style of RP and when I did RP in SL I still kept the habit of using text to build the sim ( scene) instead of the builds that were around me. Although the builds did help set the mood. I did find myself withdrawing from the slow boring RP( come on 20 minutes to stutter out some lines of jibber jabber) and just writing my own stories while I sat silently doing my own thing.
had enough
Jun 1st, 2011
HA! Ever notice how the RP sims that brag about having the best writers in SL have limp dick losers who couldn’t RP their way out of a wet paper bag?
Nelson Jenkins
Jun 1st, 2011
@ Persephone Bolero
You are welcome to have your own opinions on furries, but don’t expect them not to have their own opinions on you.
Senban Babii
Jun 1st, 2011
I’ve been thinking about this roleplay thing a little more.
Roleplay is fantasy, right? So if I’m sat around a table with some friends playing Runequest with paper, pencils, dice, miniatures etc, we’re takling about a fantasy world created inside a real world.
If we’re roleplaying in SL then what we’re effectively doing is experiencing a fantasy within a fantasy within a real world.
So sticking to any kind of strict interpretation of what fits a roleplay environment seems to me to be nonsensical.
I HERD U LIEK ROLEPLAY SO WE PUT A ROLEPLAY IN YOUR ROLEPLAY SO U CAN ROLEPLAY WHILE U ROLEPLAY
See what I’m getting at?
Persephone Bolero
Jun 1st, 2011
@Senban “So sticking to any kind of strict interpretation of what fits a roleplay environment seems to me to be nonsensical.”
You seriously wouldn’t see any lack of plausibility if someone was, say, a gladiator and broke out with a light saber? Seriously??
Senban Babii
Jun 1st, 2011
That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’d agree! Just imagine a situation where you’re roleplaying ancient Greece and in walks Senban Babii armed with a lightsaber! Bwahaharrz! After killing everything within five miles without breaking a sweat I’d go on to rule Greece.
Obviously this is someone introducing an element designed to give them an unfair advantage within the game. The same could be said with someone turning up at a Roman chariot race in the Batmobile or whatever.
I’m suddenly reminded of that episode of the Simpsons where the kids are all playing cowboys and indians and Nelson Muntz turns up with the Killmatic 3000 and wipes them all out, claiming that it’s fair to use it because records from that era are spotty at best XD
But let’s say now that we’re playing D&D round a table, using miniatures. No one has an infinite number of miniatures and no one has the exact miniature with the exact race using the exact weapons wearing the exact clothes for every possible occasion. So you quickly learn to compromise and in effect suspend belief so you can get on with the roleplaying, using stand-ins. That’s really what we’re talking about here remember, suspension of belief. Yes it would be awesome to create a perfect roleplaying sim but in truth it’s never going to be perfect. People just want to play the game and that’s far more important than having a perfect set of miniatures with a perfect set of floorplans. My ex-boyfriend used to play those tabletop wargames and they used to use books for hills and so on. They never bothered to paint all the miniatures either. Yes they’d prefer an awesome setup with perfect model scenery and amazing professionally painted armies but in reality, it’s the game that’s the important thing.
Does that make sense?
Dontspill McGinnis
Jun 1st, 2011
The Ex boyfriend Senban,…
Not a short, bearded fellow in chain mail was he?
I’ve been known to do that kind of thing!
Senban Babii
Jun 1st, 2011
Completists among you will want to know that the Simpsons episode is called Bart’s Girlfriend btw
Epic suggestion for trolling. Walk into your nearest Games Workshop and stand by a game table where they’ve got everything set up for a game. Wait until the inevitable assistant races over to try and sell you something. Act dumb so they try to explain what the game is actually about. Nod along for a few minutes and then say “oh so it’s like Subbuteo then?” and start flicking the miniatures round the table as if you’re trying to score a goal. The look on their faces is worth being asked to leave the store, believe me
Or if you’re old enough to have kids who might play, go and sit in the store on a Saturday. The assistants assume you’re there with your kids and will let you sit down and even bring you a cup of tea and some cookies. Usually you can get away with this for quite a while before they realise you’re sitting there grinning for a reason.
If either of the above sounds familiar Dontspill, we might just have an unexpected connection
Paul
Jun 1st, 2011
Rp is rp, fantasy is fantasy. Be careful who you judge, lest you be judged yourself. Gor, furies…it is funny how people get so outraged, especially when they vociferously defend one only to slam the other in the next posting. It is also interesting how one of the things that SL can actually do productively (i.e. provide a safe environment for creative role-play of ANY kind, emphasis on ‘play’) takes such a beating in forums like this, with a common thrust from the posters seemingly being to tell everyone to get serious about the real life of fake virtual worlds.
Here’s hoping the Herald gives us something new to argue about soon. Is it just me, or is this site starting to tank?
We
Jun 1st, 2011
@Persephone Bolero
“You seriously wouldn’t see any lack of plausibility if someone was, say, a gladiator and broke out with a light saber? Seriously??”
Lightsabers belong in fantasy more than anything. They’re swords, and they operate off of what can only be described as magic, since light just doesn’t work that way.
So yeah, I wouldn’t blink if someone in a magical fantasy roleplay, broke out a magical fantasy sword.
-
“Well, if you have a human fantasy world, talking animals clash like someone using a laser gun in a medieval setting.”
Define “human fantasy”, since “talking animals” have been a staple of human fantasy pretty much since humans had a sense to fantasize.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 2nd, 2011
@We
I realize you’re no fantasy roleplayer, but light sabers are sci-fi. They’re considered “tech.” And human fantasy usually means set in a Earthly historic period. In my sim, it was a humanistic world. While not Earth, it did not have “magic.” It was loosely based on the Grecko-Roman Era. And if you’re wondering, the Romans did not have furries or light sabers. Not even Augustus.
I’m not going to explain it all to you. There’s an easier way to handle this. Contact me in world, and I’ll take you to a human fantasy roleplay sim. You can wear a furry avi, break out with a light saber, and we’ll see how long it is before you get banned. Let’s put your theory to this test. What do you say?