Alex Fitzsimmons – Post 6 Grrrl
by Pixeleen Mistral on 29/12/06 at 3:15 pm
[Editor’s note: This week we feature a sword and statuette making gorean slave as our Post 6 Grrrl - Alex Fitzsimmons. I'd like to thank Alex for taking the time to share a little of herself with us courtesy of my favorite visionary - the amazing Marilyn Murphy. Marilyn is the force behind Players, SL’s in-world erotica magazine and I think everyone agrees her photographs are fabulous!]
Come now. You aren’t here for the article, are you? 
Still with me?
Okay. It may be pointless, but I spent a lot of time thinking about what to write and just how to say it. I guess I wanted to promote my little sword- and statuette-making business (called Alex’s), but I think maybe I have something more valuable to say than just “please buy my stuff.”
Some of you, those who know me in-world, may have noticed I’m not speaking in third person as I always do in-world. The reasons for that are simply these: one, Mistress allows it for these purposes, and two, it seems less cumbersome and confusing, at least here, for the uninitiated.
Speaking of confusing, the rest of you may be wondering just what I’m going on about! It is simply this: in-world, and in my heart, I am a slave. I am the property of Mistress Angelique LaFollette, formerly Maria LaVeaux in The Sims Online. I’m trained generally in the manner of a Gorean kajira, although my involvement with Second Life Gor, given my avatar’s appearance and Mistress’s differences with many of the SL Goreans, is complicated to say the least.
I’m not forced to be a slave, and yet I’m not sure I’d call it a choice exactly, either. This gets into a very complicated subject, but the gist of it is that I believe that some people are born with an inclination to be happiest in the service of others: “natural slaves,” as some people call us.
A strict reading of Gorean ideals holds that this is true of women, that it is perhaps true to some degree of all women, and that it is perhaps not true of any men, but I disagree. (Yes, shockingly, I think it’s possible to get some value from something without slavishly — pardon the expression — following every detail. I don’t see any contradiction in that. Would you give total obedience to every idea put forth by any one philosopher?) However, I agree that there are natural slaves, and it may even be true that women are more inclined toward it, in general, than men. I agree that first comes the sword, then laws, and I believe that history bears this out. And I agree that there are no “mere” points of honor.
So just what is a Gorean, anyway? In a general sense, they, or perhaps we (depending on how you see Mistress and me), are people who model their behavior — in SL, outside of SL, or both — more or less on some novels written by one John Norman. Here it seems important to clarify a point: in SL at least, Goreans are divided between the “lifestylers” and the “roleplayers,” or just “players.” If you’ve visited SL Gor, odds are very high that you’ve interacted with the players, as their influence mostly dominates. As roleplayers, they don’t necessarily have any personal emotional investment in what they do — it’s “just a game.” This is in direct contrast to the lifestylers, who consider what they do more than just a game.
It would be accurate to say that lifestyler Goreans are a kind of D/s (Dominance/submission) lifestyler, but it’s important to understand that while all Gorean lifestylers are by definition a kind of D/s lifestyler, not all D/s lifestylers are Gorean.
By definition, any natural slaves, and any dominants who have a real understanding of what they’re doing, are lifestylers to some extent. Unfortunately, people who don’t know what they’re doing and aren’t emotionally invested besides (read: roleplayers) can do a lot of damage in such an intense relationship, which is one of the complaints against SL Gor especially among D/s lifestylers who aren’t Gorean. This leads to the claim that Goreans emotionally damage slaves, which as with many generalizations has a kernel of truth in it but isn’t fair when applied in such a blanket manner to such a diverse group of people.
I could go on and on with this subject given the time, but here are the most important things I’ve learned about D/s relationships in general and about honor from Mistress:
1. A slave is owned, but that does not make her the same as a chair. A thoroughbred is also owned, and only a fool would treat it like a chair.
2. Love matters.
3. True honor means not compromising your principles, even a little bit, for anyone or for any reason.
4. There is no such thing as a good “lie in support of a greater truth.”
Okay, that’s it. Other than in-world, you can find me over on Second Citizen from time to time with the rest of that crazy, dysfunctional crowd. Hi guys! Told you I’d sneak in a mention!
There. I said that’s it. Look, boobies!
bubbles
Dec 29th, 2006
Thanks for sharing with us the person behind the name
Ouchquack
Dec 29th, 2006
RE: Look, boobies!
A Gorean with a sense of humor? How shamefull!
Io
Dec 29th, 2006
Alex is the hawtest Gorean I know.
Gor can bite me.
Dec 29th, 2006
Goreans are generally hated by every RPG gamer I’ve known due to their sexism and perversion. I have to concur.
Murderfiend Juutilainen
Dec 29th, 2006
Gorean? I thought that she was a Drow…
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 29th, 2006
I’m aware of the apparent contradiction, and I even mention it briefly in the article, Murderfiend. It’s a long, long story. Short version? I belong to a Gorean Mistress (one of those involved with the original Port Kar, in fact — not the present one), I’m trained in the Gorean tradition, and I happen to have a drow shape and skin. By all means, come to your own conclusions.
Ayu Sura
Dec 29th, 2006
So if one the one hand there are people who are natural slaves… what’s on the other end..?
Urizenus
Dec 29th, 2006
and what’s a Drow exactly?
Artemis Fate
Dec 30th, 2006
“my involvement with Second Life Gor, given my avatar’s appearance and Mistress’s differences with many of the SL Goreans, is complicated to say the least.”
No doubt that Angelique and your’s relationship with gor is extremely complex, I can’t quite place it, one minute you two are condemning it and the other moment you’re praising it, all the while practicing “gorean like” d/s generally around gorean sims.
The whole “natural slave” thing too has been interesting for me, for if one were to claim they were born with traits fitting into a man-made dichotomy of order, what else would apply to “natural”. Ultimately however, it seems more likely to be a nurtured slave.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 30th, 2006
Ayu: That depends on what you’re asking, exactly. What’s on the other end of what? Of being a slave? Or just period?
I suppose you could call the “roleplay slaves” the other end, since they’re basically just playing a game and may as well be sitting at a table with pen, paper and dice declaring, “I cast a spell,” for all that it means anything to them.
Or perhaps you mean natural dominants? I think there certainly are those, as well. It’s an inclination — perhaps fully inborn, perhaps learned, or perhaps a little of both, and not necessarily strictly polar in nature. I suppose it could be viewed in a light similar to sexual preference, although D/s is not necessarily about sex at all.
Urizenus: For more on drow, just IM me in-world or Google it. I’d prefer not to get too sidetracked by that here.
Artemis: You’re basing your comments on a false premise — to wit, that it’s a “man-made dichotomy of order.” Look no further than the natural world, and you will see that social animals tend naturally to organize as leaders and followers and that dominance and submission games are extremely important. To assume that *we humans* invented this way of relating to one another is the height of hubris.
Nor is our behavior toward SL Gor as erratic as you suggest. We don’t waffle between condemning and praising it, as you claim, we just have little use for the roleplayers.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 30th, 2006
Oh and by the way, thanks Io, Ouchquack and bubbles!
Artemis Fate
Dec 30th, 2006
“Look no further than the natural world, and you will see that social animals tend naturally to organize as leaders and followers and that dominance and submission games are extremely important. To assume that *we humans* invented this way of relating to one another is the height of hubris.”
Fair enough point. Although I don’t think any one of them is naturally alligned to one position in this order, as much as they would be nurtured towards it. But I suppose that’s not steady ground to argue off of, as I really don’t know. You are however correct, it’s not a man-made order (Although the particular traditions and such attached to it is, but the primal orgins of it aren’t).
Nature vs. Nurture that’s an ultimate question to it all in terms of behavior.
“Nor is our behavior toward SL Gor as erratic as you suggest. We don’t waffle between condemning and praising it, as you claim, we just have little use for the roleplayers.”
Eeeeeeeh, I don’t know about that, i’ve seen Angelique go from being a head of a gor sim, to saying gor is stupid and useless to being a part of gor sims again.
But, you’d know better than I.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 30th, 2006
She never said Gor was stupid or useless … at all, ever, that I am aware of.
She has said some uncomplimentary things about SL Goreans after some incidents, but over time I think we’ve both come to agree that it comes down to the difference between roleplayers and lifestylers, the latter of whom seem to constitute the minority, as well as to the relative lack of honor among the majority (but not every single one). That latter problem is quite universal, however, and I would argue hardly unique to SL Gor.
On the nature vs. nuture question, I can only say, as I said in-world a short while ago to a friend, “Not enough data.” I just don’t know. It could perhaps be either of them or a combination of both, but whatever it is, it seems to function much like sexual orientation among adults: whatever you are, you ARE. (Even if what you are is a “switch,” I guess. I’m not sure what to make of those people, honestly.)
Macphisto Angelus
Dec 30th, 2006
Looking good miss Fitzsimmons!
Nah, I wouldn’t either and I am saying it. 
Very nice article. Would you believe I only read this for the article?
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 30th, 2006
Macphisto, I can still scarcely believe anyone actually did read the article at all!
Thanks for the compliments. =)
Ikuko Shirakawa
Dec 30th, 2006
Alex Fitzsimmons is a wonderful girl and it’s an honour and a pleasure to know her personally. You’d better enjoy her body and be thankful for it! The woman inside it is even more beautiful than the outside can ever convey! Also, (Shameless plug) Her swords are quite honestly some of the best, if not the best, I’ve ever seen on SL.
Jonas Pierterson
Dec 30th, 2006
Alex, you look great. Keep practicing your brand of Gor and put those who say you aren’t gor at all in their place. There is no true gor, a fact many forget.
You look great, I should get you on my drows friends list.
Maybe get your opinion of my shape. Can you IM me a landmark to the place you got your hair btw?
Gabe Lippmann
Dec 30th, 2006
“you will see that social animals tend naturally to organize as leaders and followers and that dominance and submission games are extremely important”
An interesting angle.
Nice piece, Alex.
Artemis Fate
Dec 30th, 2006
Anyways, I didn’t mean to derail the comments part of this, so i’ll get off that topic.
Looking good Alex
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 30th, 2006
Thanks, guys … and Mistress Ikuko, whom I’m also very happy to know personally.
Jonas, I’d be happy to send you a landmark, and if I manage to forget, just remind me in-world. If I have a moment, and you’re on, I’ll show you personally — the way the shop is set up, it’s too easy to miss the hair. Which is a pity since it’s so great!
Artemis, don’t worry. I don’t mind honest discussion, and really with an article like this, I’m inviting it. You’re fine. And thanks for the compliment. =)
Squeedoo S
Dec 30th, 2006
Hi hi, beautiful Alex!
Good job on the article and the pictures are wonderful. :3
Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer
Dec 30th, 2006
Interestingly, natural order of the world has females in charge. Remove lions and tigers from your mind and there are hundreds of thousands of species where the female is the dominant figure. For one I can think of grosbeaks (birds) and penguins (tux salesmen). Both let the female galavant while the hubby stays home with the eggs.
FemDom ftw. (By the way, having subs doesn’t always equate to BDSM, so the whipping can be constrewed as a dominant relationship rather than a kink. It’s when you take the dominant/sub role in everyday life where it’s a lifestyle.)
Men actually have more of a natural inclintation to sub to women, probably because of nurturing. They are birthed by a woman, cared for by a woman, more often than not taught by mostly women.
Too bad our society dictates man must be master of all. Women make good dominant roles in relationships. (Trust me, I know!)
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 30th, 2006
Remove lions and tigers and canines … but it’s a complicated issue. Certainly there’s a great deal of variation with respect to which gender, if either, holds overall dominance in a given group of animals.
Primates definitely vary. Here’s a little something interesting on the subject picked out at random that happens to be from a Palomar College Web site: http://anthro.palomar.edu/behavior/behave_2.htm
Anyway, whatever your take on it, I happen to belong to a woman myself after all.
Urizenus
Dec 31st, 2006
I should point out that Jan. 2, will be the third anniversary of a an interview I did with Alex’s mistress Angelique (then Maria LaVeaux) and her then slave.
http://www.alphavilleherald.com/archives/000075.html
I have to say the interview is still a good read and the comments of course are the best part. I dare say after reading them, however, that Dyerbrook/Prokofy has mellowed in the last three years.
Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer
Dec 31st, 2006
Interesting read Alex.
I do know some women who have FemDom relationships with other females and that’s totally awesome, obviously you and I both know there are elements of FemDom that equals Gor ideal, but FemDom itself isn’t Gor.
Just seems the natural order of things overall (if you remove the male ego) is a female overall dominance.
Another interesting point to make, many species practice female cuckolding, due to the disparities in sexual nature. While we, in a male machismo dominated society have always thought the natural order was males mated many females to ensure offspring, lots of sub species actually the male is monogamous while the female is cuckolding to ensure the survival of a species, which some theorize is the reason natural order a female gets a larger drive for sex later, while males peak MUCH earlier. Other species the female has adapted to self seminate and produce offspring without males (a recent study shows that a few female komodo dragons have adapted to produce offspring asexually).
I don’t practice cuckolding myself, but it’s an interesting concept.
Prokofy Neva
Dec 31st, 2006
Uri, no, I haven’t mellowed in the slightest. I stand by everything I wrote there. Indeed, to save time, I often give people links to that same thread so I don’t have to repeat all the same arguments again. I just refuse to be baited and heckled by Alex, who has even been IMing me in world to brag about this article, and drawn into the same debate, which people can just go read the back pages of the Herald about if they like. Nothing has changed. My argumentation is brilliant. I think the insight about the provinciality of the BDSM types online is spot on, for example.
You can see in this thread the lengths to which people will go to harass and threaten someone who dissents against their cult. This fellow Storm, who was in both BDSM and the SSG, stalked me somehow and obtained some RL information, I’m not sure how but I have my suspicions. He exaggerated it there — and also had all these fake alts that weren’t mine — the only alt that was mine in that list was Lord Cheetah who was a known alt. But he is the one who stalked and disclosed my RL information to you Uri, not only in that thread but in IMs, and that led to articles and more commentary outing my RL. Yes, the Herald is the gift that keeps on giving, and today, I have a whole passel of fucktards even stalking me into RL on my home phone and talking to my kids. It’s truly amazing — merely for objecting to their odious belief systems and lifestyles — these are the lengths they will go to. That alone tells you their true nature.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 31st, 2006
Oh Prokofy.
I sent you ONE very brief IM in-world inviting you to come share your thoughts on “BDSM mind-control.” And why not? You’re well-known for being nothing if not outspoken on the topic.
Seola: I prefer to deal with people on an individual basis and leave it at that. I’ve met a lot of in-world would-be Dom/mes, and I can say with confidence that, in my opinion, the number who would claim it is far, far greater than the number who really have it.
And that goes for women every bit as much as men.
Lupus Delacroix
Dec 31st, 2006
Lol whats it like on your own planet Prok?
“I have a whole passel of fucktards even stalking me into RL on my home phone and talking to my kids. It’s truly amazing — merely for objecting to their odious belief systems and lifestyles — these are the lengths they will go to.”
So plastic Duck calling you is because Alex is a Gorean? Hmmmmm….
You keep making these genious conclusion jumps and I’m going to start labeling anything you write as comedy.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 31st, 2006
You mean it isn’t comedy? O.O
Prokofy Neva
Dec 31st, 2006
I’m sorry all the steps in the logic chain are opaque to you and you see only two connections literally, Lupus, but I guess they don’t teach the Socratic method and logic and rhetoric in school anymore these days. If you can’t figure out — well, don’t, it will strain your mind.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Dec 31st, 2006
Prokofy, I don’t think ANYONE knows what you’re driving at. Whatever anyone else has done, all I ever did was send a single, short IM inviting you to come express your views.
And despite what anyone else does, I refer to you consistently as “he” because that’s what you want, as I couldn’t really care less what someone did or didn’t find out about the real-life you. I consistently respect the way you wish to be identified and take you to task, to the extent that I do, only for the things you assert.
So tell me, Prokofy: to what lengths have I gone?
Lupus Delacroix
Jan 1st, 2007
There is no logic chain here you daft twit, just you continuing to build bullshit on a foundation of quicksand. This has nothing to do with socratic method, occoms razor or any other research methodology. This is nothing more than you being a bully and persuing grudges based off of perceived past sleights.
Flip has no connection to plastic duck save that he plays the same game, there may be a few shared friends down the road but thats true of us all. I have more connection to PD than Flip does as I have been a forum goon on SA for over 5 years now. I don’t advertise this fact and I have minimal contact with w-hat because honestly I enjoy stearing CLEAR of trouble rather than wallowing in it.
The problem with you is the ability for there to be a grand agenda automatically makes it so. Conspiracy theory becomes conspiracy fact in your reporting so fast that it litterally flips and snaps the clothing of your readers around in the wind, and you NEVER EVER bother to back anything up with hard concrete provable fact.
Why? Because you are trash, your reporting is trash. You are nothing more than an overglorified muckraker propelling yourself up on the lies you tell and you have been given your moment of fame in what ammounts to a video game. Pathetic.
Lupus Delacroix
Jan 1st, 2007
Meh Alex my appologies for bringing my dislike of asses into your moment.
Beautiful spread
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2007
I am put off by this artical about gor, The avatar is of a dark elf, female, common in certain games like Everquest. Gor is a culture, based on books, there are no fantasy figures such as “dark elves” No one looks like she does on Gor. The fact that she does not know that, makes me not want to read anything she says or take anything she says good or bad, seriously.
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2007
artical after artical on this paper on gor are wrong why does not someone step up and write an accurate artical. Gor for anyone that knows, has nothing to do with earth BSDM. No one is whiped for “pleasure” there are no nipple clamps and ball gags on Gor,,,I mean if people dont understand this, then how can they publish and article about Gor,,,sigh…what does one have to do to get a proper article written on gor?
Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer
Jan 2nd, 2007
But you miss the medium Dave.
Whipping IS for pleasure. Being whipped in Gor brings pleasure to a female in a thier mind (and of course that’s all subjective/relative to the person of who finds what panty warming).
If a girl is happy being a slave to someone else, then the whippings for whatever reason of duties for the girl is pleasureable to her because she’s living a life she likes. (At least at this point, AFAIK, no one can forcibly RL [[without legalites]]or SL make you a slave, which pretty much means it’s all willing.) Who am I to tell other people what’s right and wrong?
People wonder how a man can take pleasure in constantly serving a woman 24/7 even though it’s against ‘societal natural order’. And wonder why weekly D/s sessions can make anyone happy (and no, the D/s session in FemDom isn’t supposed to be for ‘pleasure’, but still derives such). Don’t knock it til you try it.
I may not agree with Gor, I’ve read up on it quite a bit, the REAL Gor, and I know I don’t agree with it in many ways… in fact, it’s a bit like Scientology when you get down to it, but if someone wants to live thier life that way and they aren’t hurting me… more power to them.
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2007
“inclination to be happiest in the service of others: “natural slaves,” as some people call us. A strict reading of Gorean ideals holds that this is true of women, that it is perhaps true to some degree of all women, and that it is perhaps not true of any men, but I disagree.”
This shows a lack of understand of Gor. John Normal the author of the Gor books never stated that all women to some degree are slaves. (in fact most women on Gor over 90 percent are free women in the books) Nor did he say that all men are not. There are tons of quotes where men are slaves and where women are strong and dominate. Women are more inclined to be slaves, because women are more inclined to be slaves by nature. Gor culture is about embracing nature and acting out how we where made to. Shedding off phony desires and silly social mandates, going back to wear we are most happy, back to the roots of human civilization where the strong rule and the weak are ruled or killed, survival of the fitness, just like nature. Only going back to how we where made can make the human soul most happy. (Don’t nick pick this, I could write 200 pages on this subject, I am just trying to briefly summarize due to the lack of understand by the author)
“Goreans are divided between the “lifestylers” and the “roleplayers,” or just “players.” If you’ve visited SL Gor, odds are very high that you’ve interacted with the players, as their influence mostly dominates. As roleplayers, they don’t necessarily have any personal emotional investment in what they do — it’s “just a game.” This is in direct contrast to the lifestylers, who consider what they do more than just a game.”
I guess this would be true to some extent, but what you will find is that people who don’t invest there emotion into it and treat it as a game, wont go far and don’t last long. All people that “do” Gor online put a lot of their emotional in it. You wont find anyone that “does” Gor for a long period of time that does not put their emotions in it
“It would be accurate to say that lifestyler Goreans are a kind of D/s (Dominance/submission) lifestyler, but it’s important to understand that while all Gorean lifestylers are by definition a kind of D/s lifestyler, not all D/s lifestylers are Gorean.”
This is not true at all, in BSDM people are whipped and serve for their pleasures, people are referred to as “subs” There are no “subs” on Gor. BSDM is an earth based culture that has nothing to do with Gor or Gorean culture. Gor you will not find dildos, and ball gags, paddles, boot slaves, ect ect. There is no leather outfits, no latex no one being lead on all fours by a chain cause its funny or humiliating. Slaves are not humiliated for the fun of it. Again the differences between the two cultures one could write a book on. Are there similarities sure, just like the are similarities between football and baseball..both being American games played with balls. But when you play each game, they are very different.
I could go on and on with this subject given the time, but here are the most important things I’ve learned about D/s relationships in general and about honor from Mistress:
1. A slave is owned, but that does not make her the same as a chair. A thoroughbred is also owned, and only a fool would treat it like a chair.
2. Love matters.
3. True honor means not compromising your principles, even a little bit, for anyone or for any reason.
4. There is no such thing as a good “lie in support of a greater truth.”
I don’t know what she is talking about here for the most part, and does not belong in an article about Gorean slavery.
1) if she means a prized slave with worth should not be abused, everyone would agree with that and does not really need to be said now does it? should she not say food should be eaten and drinks should be drunk, that would have the same impact
2)shrugs, that is to broad and not defined what she means enough to comment.
3) shrugs again, Honor is about having principles but more importantly what them principles are. If you have principles then you can not compromise them for if you did, you never had them to start with. If that makes sense
4 this is not that accurate and could be misleading. Obviously her point is People with honor don’t lie and will die before they break their word. But certainly deceptions against ones enemy is not dis-honorable, so there are times ‘as a good “lie in support of a greater truth’ In the books Tarl was undercover many times and did not speak the truth for the greater good. If you remember Tarl was an agent for the preist king and took on different roles to accomplish certain things. In a modern example, someone is not dishonoralbe given a phony e mail address to protect from spammers ect. Deceptaion is not allways dis honorable. And in fact in battle it is a must.
The last point is that avi is not sexy at all. You look like something out of a comic book, perhaps that is why you have a Mistress and not a Master, you fail to recognize what pleases men. Grey skin and white hair is not very attractive nor human looking.
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2007
Whipping IS for pleasure. Being whipped in Gor brings pleasure to a female in a thier mind (and of course that’s all subjective/relative to the person of who finds what panty warming)
this is just flat out wrong,,,girls on gor in the books are not whipped for pleasure,peroid,,,there is no grey area here,,,if you have a mental illness that you acquate the tearing of your flesh with a whip as pleasureable that is your thing…..that is not what it is ment to be about.
Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer
Jan 2nd, 2007
Dave, I think you are missing the lot of the info, and misinterpreting it and how it’s presented. So I’m not gonna bother, however:
“”"”The last point is that avi is not sexy at all. You look like something out of a comic book, perhaps that is why you have a Mistress and not a Master, you fail to recognize what pleases men. Grey skin and white hair is not very attractive nor human looking. “”"”
Just because YOU don’t find something sexy doesn’t mean other men don’t. Hey, you have a mistress and you find that appealing but other men don’t, does that mean we should discount you and your mistress for being wrong?
There are hundreds upon thousands of drawings and animations that men jerk off to everyday that look just like her.
I dare you say that about furries. It’s the same narrow minded viewpoint.
“”"”The last point is that avi is not sexy at all. You look like something out of a comic book, perhaps that is why you have a Mistress and not a Master, you fail to recognize what pleases men. Tiger skin and white fur is not very attractive nor human looking. “”"”"
Yet, hundreds of men find that pleasing, but not humans. And some don’t find it so at all.
Don’t force your judgements as law on other people. I happen to think that av is VERY sexy, albeit not the norm of the realm of ‘human’. If anything, that should win most hypocritical statement of the year at the end of this year.
BTW, it’s not just less than 10% of those who are slaves/owned. It’s actually 2%. However, it’s made abundantly clear, even the ‘free’ women can be claimed as slaves and can still be treated as such. Although supposedly, men find slave women more desirable anyways (as noted in the Guardsman of Gor).
And while they hold paganistic values of the world they live in, they are often cruel to everyone else. So I guess Dave, if that is to be believed by one and all, your Gorean mistress treats others in Gor like crap.
And I guess as well, that you don’t go offline without your Mistress permission and you don’t even get to use a toilet right? You use a bucket? I bet you don’t eat French Fries either. And you don’t ask or lest you be punished because a slave is not to be bargained with?
It also holds true throughout several of the books, that if a woman came to know the slave lifestyle, she would crave it undoubtedly. I know about it, and yet I’m still a dominant. Your mistress, if she is as so, knows about Gor, yet she craves to be your master. Is that also not hypocritical, when you judge others so?
John Norman (real name of John Lange) has a PhD in Philosophy and frankly, doesn’t even believe in the living the lifestyle. Ironically, it’s sprung up to one, but hell, as long as someone isn’t maiming and killing others, I could care less.
Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer
Jan 2nd, 2007
Oh Dave? I suggest you go back and read your books again… there are many accounts of slaves deriving pleasure from being whipped. It’s a psychological thing. They believe it to be in thier will to submit and that is what would make them happy, therefore, when Master attends to them in the ways they need, be it discipline, or domination, it’s pleasureable for the slave.
However, you are a walking contradiction in yourself.
Men aren’t supposed to have Mistresses in Gor.
“The man who respects a woman does not know what else to do with her.” Beast of Gor
“It is said,” said Samos, “that only weaklings, and fools, and men who deserve to be slave girls, fall slave to women.” Hunters of Gor
“Gorean men do not surrender their birthright as males, their rightful dominance, their appropriate mastery. They do not choose to be dictated to by females.” Magicians of Gor
But of course, you are awfully opinionated in following the rights of Gor, yet don’t do as such yourself. Interesting…..
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2007
well you are good at getting quotes please enlighten us all. show us where in the books slaves go phycial pleasure from being whipped. I never said there was not a phycologial impact of feeling there slavery,,,,we are talking about the act of whipping,,please post the quotes then we shall talk about it …we are all waiting. I am waiting for when a girl wanted to be whipped,,,that is what I am talking about if you misread my statement then I accept your applogizes
as far as your other quotes go, yea ? what is your point you post quotes but dont make a point…I have seen them quotes before so what? Did I say it was natural that men are weak? Are some men weak yes,,,that is what I said, some men are slaves, I did not say nor never said it was a natural sate.
I think you need better reading skills to be honest because I have better time then to discuss things with people of low iq and or reading ability.
and as far as that person talking about blue skin red eyed girl, yes of course I am speaking from my point of view, she is not human,,on Gor we are human,,therefore she is not Gorean and I then can conclude from that,,that Gorean men will not find her attractive. Do I speak fro all, of course not, men jerk off to other men,,,so try to understand what I am trying to say, and not read word for word
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2007
I guess I made a typo please someone copy and paste where I said I had a gorean Mistress?
Perhaps that is the root of the Miscommunication
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2007
To clear a few points up:
I don’t have a Gorean Mistress
I never even said I liked or disliked Gor
I am what is called “generalizing” when I say “men don’t like..” hint,,,when ever someone says that, they are Generalizing and are not trying to speak for everyone.
The blue girl in the red eyes states several times and implies that she is “hot” I trying to inform her that she is not, not in a Goreans eyes she is not even human, There are no “dark elves” on Gor…(again I am generalizing, will some men on gor think she is sexy, sure, then again there are some men on gor that fuck sheep, the point is she will be banned from many true gor sims for her looks)
I never said in my above post that it was a natural state for men to be slaves, despite the quotes and the “I don’t know Gor” BS. Either she can’t read or does not have enough reading ability.
And my friend the poster above me is going to enlighten me with gor quotes that state “Gor girls wished to be whipped or got pleasure from that act” to prove me wrong.
If a girl was displeasing may she beg to be punished and whipped,,,yes,,,not for it brings her pleasure, but for she is shamed for displeasing the man she loved, and that may some how right the wrong….that is very different then seeing your owner and thinking “mmm I hope he whips me today I love to be whipped”….On gor a whipping was brutal.
So I will wait for an apology or a quote from the good lady. To clear that matter up.
My whole main point for all of this is that time and time again things written about gor are just wrong. Many peoples negative opinion on Gor is based on non gorean things and not even understanding Gor. I don’t mind someone not liking Gor, but at least understand what your not liking before you don’t like it. I may or may not like Gor and its cultures, but at least I understand what it is about.
Dave
Jan 2nd, 2007
“BTW, it’s not just less than 10% of those who are slaves/owned. It’s actually 2%.”
sorry I missed this before,this is to funny,
so are you saying 2 percent is not less then 10 percent? lol mmm well just so you know it is.
and I left the number large on purpose for there is debate on that subject and I did not want to make that topic the point.
please this is for everyone that wants to make a point,,make a point, back it with something. What is your point for saying 2 percent? really does the subject matter change less then 10 percent,,,2 percent,,,the point is the same,,,and that 2 percent is debatable there is contradictions in some of Norman’s writtings.
Lupus Delacroix
Jan 2nd, 2007
Shut up dave.
Artemis Fate
Jan 2nd, 2007
Aaah Dave, I remember you from my Gor notecard thread making the same broken and misunderstood points off of faulty logic. You posted a few times and after I tore apart all your points you mysteriously disappeared, I wonder what happened to that.
I find it highly ammusing that you’re insulting Alex over her dark elf looks saying how it’s not gorean. “Gor is a culture, based on books, there are no fantasy figures such as “dark elves” No one looks like she does on Gor.” Yep, nothing fantasy at all. No multi-headed beasts, no giant sentient ants controlling a planet with futuristic technology, no space ships abducting people from earth, no giant beetles and other such fantastic alien creatures. Yeah, Gor is 100% realistic.
“The last point is that avi is not sexy at all. You look like something out of a comic book, perhaps that is why you have a Mistress and not a Master, you fail to recognize what pleases men.”
I find this interesting that many “true gorean” people such as yourself have gotten it into their heads that there can be no other truth but their truth, and thus what is good for them CLEARLY must be what everyone else wants. It doesn’t seem to have crossed your mind that you could be wrong, or more importantly that someone could have a better viewpoint that wasn’t your own.
“True honor means not compromising your principles, even a little bit, for anyone or for any reason.”
Actually, Honor is defined as a synonym for respect, something that gor characteristically lacks. What you’re describing is best defined as “fanaticism” something that is common with cults and religious extremists.
And with that point, i’m going to point out, more to everyone else, that this is something this man highly values “never changing his mind” aka close-minded. It’s quite pointless to argue with someone like that, as it is with any religious extremist. My arguments above were more for everyone else than for him.
Alex: I think you seriously have the most comments on any Post 6 grrl ever
Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer
Jan 2nd, 2007
So, you don’t live the life of it and can condemn it so freely, and question it’s perception? What are you backing yours with other than pure spec and quite literally wrong wordings and totally misunderstanding anything anyone has written to you?
There isn’t much debate on the numbers, it’s presented clearly in the books actually.
Secondly, you’ve totally missed the mark. It’s said in the books, that a woman knows true pleasure and full contentment when she is a slave and all the acts that go with it. Which includes ‘punishment’.
But since you want such clarity:
“”What does a slave girl want more than anything?”
“To please men.”
“What are you?”
“I am a slave girl.”
“What do you want more than anything?”
“To please men.”"” from Assassins of Gor
“”I knew then that he was dominant over me. This had nothing to do with the fact that I lay stripped before him, wrists and ankles lashed, his prisoner. It had to do with the fact that he was totally masculine, and in the presence of such a stimulus, my body would permit me to be only totally feminine.”" Captive of Gor
“”The aroused sexuality of the slave girl is surely the strongest of the chains with which she is bound…
“And you want more of them, don’t you?’ he asked. “Yes, Master,” I said, my eyes suddenly filling with tears. How helpless I was before such men. “And desperately so?” he said. “Yes, Master!” I wept. “You perhaps understand now,” he said, “that there is more to slavery than collars and chains.” ” Dancer
“”On Gor, the female slave, desiring her master, yet sometimes fearing to speak to him, frightened that she may be struck, has recourse upon occasion to certain devices, the meaning of which is generally established and culturally well understood. I shall mention two such devices. There is, first, the bondage knot. The bondage knot is a simple looped knot tied into the girl”s hair and worn at the side of her right cheek or before her right shoulder. The girl approaches the master naked and kneels, the bondage knot soft, curled, fallen at the side of her right cheek or before her right shoulder. ” Tribesman
“For the first time in my life I felt I understood what might be the meaning of the expression “male,” and as I lay before him, too, dimly, it frightening me, what might be the meaning of the expression “female.” How beautiful, I thought, I must look to him, lying bound, totally vulnerable, helpless at his feet. How such a sight must stir the splendor of his manhood, to see the female, his, caught, helpless at his feet, his to do with in lust and pleasure, and joy, as he pleased, helpless to escape him, free for him to work his will upon her!”" Slave Girl
“”"I have experienced feelings and sensations I never knew could exist. Inhibitions have been shattered, some of them commanded from me by strong men and the blows of the whip, I have learned to live and to feel. My emotions have been freed. My deepest sexuality and nature have on this world at last been fully liberated. I have found myself. I love and I serve. I now know at last what and who I am, a love slave for uncompromising masters.”"” Rogue
There’s PLENTY more passages, but it seems to me that these girl’s who are slaves, are in submission when ‘punished’ and are turned on by it, and even more so in the last few passages, directly addresses it.
Guess you don’t know everything after all. Apparently, you don’t understand. The biggest thing you misunderstand about Gor is that women who are slaves do not like aspects of being slaves. It’s written in the books, that when a woman becomes a slave, she knows true freedom and enjoys every aspect of being a slave, lest she not be a slave.
Seola Sassoon a.k.a Random Writer
Jan 2nd, 2007
Let me make clear though:
I am not a Gor, and I don’t condemn it, and I may not agree with it, but it’s not my place to judge others on how they want to live.
So for Alex… go get yours honey, what will matter in the end is if you lived your life (SL or RL) as you wanted and it made YOU happy. Usually the others who condemn how others want to live, are the ones who are not happy themselves.
Artemis Fate
Jan 2nd, 2007
“well you are good at getting quotes please enlighten us all. show us where in the books slaves go phycial pleasure from being whipped.”
“I have experienced feelings and sensations I never knew could exist. Inhibitions have been shattered, some of them commanded from me by strong men and the blows of the whip, I have learned to live and to feel. My emotions have been freed. My deepest sexuality and nature have on this world at last been fully liberated. I have found myself. I love and I serve. I now know at last what and who I am, a love slave for uncompromising masters.” Rogue
I dare call this ownage.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Jan 2nd, 2007
Dave:
“No one looks like she does on Gor. The fact that she does not know that, makes me not want to read anything she says or take anything she says good or bad, seriously.”
If you read my article, you’d know that I am aware of that fact, and you’d also understand what I had to say about it. I recommend going back and reading it this time so that you can post a relevant comment. Thanks! =)
“This shows a lack of understand of Gor. John Normal the author of the Gor books never stated that all women to some degree are slaves.”
From Hunters of Gor:
“For example, there is no higher person, nor one more respected, than the Gorean free woman. Even a slaver who has captured a free woman often treats her with great solicitude until she is branded. Then his behavior toward her is immediately and utterly transformed. She is then merely an animal, and treated as such. Goreans do believe, however, that every woman has a natural master or set of masters, with respect to whom she could not help but be a complete and passionate slave girl. These men occur in her dreams and fantasies …”
So which Gor books were YOU reading? Just curious.
“This is not true at all, in BSDM …”
What does this have to do with what I was talking about? I referred to D/s, which is Dominance/submission, and never to BDSM, which is something completely different. You basically used a very peculiar strawman argument that I think may be accidental and a result of not knowing the difference between D/s and BDSM. No offense meant, but that’s how it appears.
I don’t even know where to begin on how you addressed the four points I put at the end of my article. You so completely failed to grasp anything I said there that I honestly don’t know whether you COULD no matter how much I tried to explain. I’m sorry, but I just don’t know how to clarify it for you. Maybe if you IMed me in-world, I could attempt to explain, but I get the feeling it would take far too long here.
“The last point is that avi is not sexy at all. You look like something out of a comic book, perhaps that is why you have a Mistress and not a Master, you fail to recognize what pleases men.”
That’s interesting, since I can give you quite the list of men who disagree. I’ve even had a few attempt to buy me, but Mistress isn’t selling. But what difference does that make? I don’t have anything to prove to you. If you don’t find it attractive, that’s your business and your right. Just you might reconsider speaking for everyone else.
Also, I have no idea where in my article you got the idea that I get physical pleasure from being whipped for punishment. FYI: I do not. Being punished is not a “for fun” thing, and I do not take it as such. It means I’ve failed somehow, been displeasing somehow, and yes, believe it or not, that feels awful to me. The only pleasure I derive from it is feeling owned and mastered, but that doesn’t make me want to rush off and disobey some more. Quite the contrary.