The Alphaville Herald

88 Responses to “Gorean Copyright Fight”

1. 

   Lemuel of the Builders
   

   Feb 14th, 2007
   

   Artemis,

   You said honour is:
   —”…just some masturbatory left-over from pulp fantasy swords and sorcery novels.”—

   This sort of comment certainly makes it seem like you don’t take the word seriously.

   —”Actually the only difference between goreans and non-goreans in this sense is that they are so self-righteous to think that they are the only ones that have “honor” and take it seriously without understanding it’s full meaning. It’s just some masturbatory left-over from pulp fantasy swords and sorcery novels. Honor is synonymous with respect …”—

   It also seems that you don’t understand the full meaning of the word – at least not in the context it was used by Simon or myself.

   One of the definitions of the word “honour”, which can be found at the Miriam-Webster Online Dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=Honor), is as follows:
   —”8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY “—

   This is the sense in which I used the word.

   And Simon’s point, I believe, when he said: —”For many it’s not a matter of beaurocracy but of honour, and of respect for John Norman, and his rights, especially his right to royalties.”— was that those Goreans who are fighting to eliminate infringements of John Norman’s copyrights are acting out of a “keen sense of ethical conduct” in addition to the respect they have for John Norman’s intellectual property.

   —”So get your hands out of your pants everytime you hear the word, and cancel that tattoo session where you were going to put it on a shield with a sword through it on your pecs, because saying you’re honorable constantly doesn’t make you honorable.”—
   It seems to me that you are the one being self-righteous here. I did not mean to imply that Goreans are the only ones that understand honour or take it seriously. Though I can see now that my words could be taken that way – for that I do apologize.

   And there are certainly people that call themselves “Gorean” that do not fully understand the word “honour” – but if you are familiar with John Norman’s works you will know that concepts like honour and duty are rather important in the world he created. So, honor is (or, IMO, should be) rather important to people that subscribe to a Gorean philosophy. And when people feel something is important they often get upset when others belittle it which is why I took exception to your comment.

   I wish you well,

   Lemuel of the Builders
2. 

   Wayfinder Wishbringer
   

   Feb 14th, 2007
   

   LOL, this is a riot– a serious riot, but a riot nevertheless. Just had to jump in here again.

   First Simon says he’s an authorized copyright representative of the Gorean books. Then someone claiming to be Bernice Norman states emphatically that Simon does not have such rights and goes so far as to threaten his website. Then another user jumps in and says “Hey, I know Simon personally and he IS an authorized copyright agent” and the claim is made that Bernice is likely bogus (and isn’t that a surprise in the SL / forums in general world?).

   Forgive me, absolutely no offense intended to any individual, but (to blogs and forums in general)… blah blah blah. That is why the internet and those who post on it (including me) can only be given as much credence as yesterday’s claims in the National Enquirer (note: National Enquirer is a trademarked and copyrighted name used here only by sheer insanity. No dispersion on that venerable and undoubtedly trustworthy name is intended in any form, except where it applies).

   Really, how can anyone tell anything about who is telling the truth and who is not? There’s no real evidence, no way to provide real evidence, and personally, since Simon was at least on the level in his facts, I’d trust his claims as much if not more than the person who boo-hissed him. That is of course, unless he’s bogus and the other person is right.

   I’ve been in a few forum debates myself (and alas, even outright battles at times). I’ve read direct lies and slanders about me, abouot groups, about other people and their groups– on these boards. (And everywhere, all over the net. SL is not unique in forum/blog hilarity). But more and more it’s occuring to me, why keep beheading lying trolls? There’s always more trolls to replace them.

   Really, bottom line is as one astute person stated above: regardless of whether Simon claims regarding his position is true or not (and I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt)– the points he makes are to my knowledge 100% valid. Nuff said. Persons have been duly warned as far as friendly public banter can go. I guess we’ll know for sure when the legal letters are issued. From what Simon says– in Second Life’s case… that could possibly be sooner than later. SURPRISE SL! BUSTED!

   (Considering how easy it is to get busted in such issues, may I add: DUH!)

   Hey, but two things of further comment:

   Yes, fan fiction based on a copyrighted world (whether Gor or Star Wars or the Dragonriders of Pern or whatever) is a matter of copyright law– if the author so chooses to pursue such.

   Now, most authors don’t. Why? Because fan fiction is a form of major advertising. Major. It costs the author nothing, detracts nothing from his sales, and advertises his books every time a piece of not-for-profit fan fiction is released. Ya can’t buy that kind of publicity. George Lucas realized that on his Star Wars franchise. As a result, he has a LOT of really loyal fans who appreciate such friendliness. And I don’t think he often goes without food or rent.

   As far as role play or dressing up goes: sorry, not copyright enforceable (at least to my knowledge). If I remember, “works of art” for the use of a single person are individually creative and not applicable to copyright law. (That means you can paint as many Star Wars paintings as you want and hang them on your own wall or even give them to friends. Not sure about selling them. That might cross the line. Would have to research). They are original, one of a kind works of art. No copyright infringement.

   Same goes for costumes– and one surely cannot try to apply copyright on the imagination of role playing (rules for role playing are another thing and might be considered as “fan publications”). So bottom line: to my understanding people on SL can dress up to be who they want and play whatever RP they want without worrying about copyright infringement.

   But as far as any other claims made on the net: that and a dollar will buy you a large cookie at the gas mart. That’s one of the drawbacks of the internet: very little accountability, no verifyable identification, no validation. Thus whatever you read (much like the printed page) means squat. Everyone will believe what they want to believe. I personally know people who convince themselves that smoking isn’t bad, doesn’t hurt other people, and won’t shorten their lives. Again, Duh.

   But as for directly duplicating a copyright book and circulating it? Oh yeah. That is definitely bad for you, bad for those you give it to, and can shorten your online life if not your real one (welcome to Prison and your new roommate– Bruno). Go figure.

   K, that’s my soapbox for the day.
3. 

   Artemis Fate
   

   Feb 14th, 2007
   

   “a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY ”

   In otherwords moral absolutism, “my ethical standards are the only correct ones, and if you don’t agree you’re wrong.” the same sort of self-righteousness that founded the crusades (another heavy use of “honor!” types).

   “It seems to me that you are the one being self-righteous here. I did not mean to imply that Goreans are the only ones that understand honour or take it seriously. Though I can see now that my words could be taken that way – for that I do apologize.”

   “That is one of the differences between people that consider themselves to be “Goreans” and other folks. The word “honour” still means something and is taken seriously by Goreans.”

   I don’t see how it COULDN’T be taken that way. Not to mention that sense of self-inflation is something I hear from goreans constantly, how they’re so honorable and no one else is, and how horrible it is that the world is in this state, likely just before they go lock their slave girl in a cage or beat her with a whip. That’s what i’m talking about with moral absolutism, clearly the kind of morals that support a worldview that allows for massive slavery aren’t the same morals as others who would say “wow, that’s fucked up”, but you’re more than willing to categorize this sort of behavior as a “keen sense of ethics”.

   My problem with the HEAVY usage of “honor” in gor is how it’s abused to support the “keen ethics” of Gorean slavery, national socialism, and militarism philosophy, and that Goreans for people who disparage when their “honor” is mocked, are more than willing to insult others for not having it.
4. 

   Seola Sassoon
   

   Feb 15th, 2007
   

   Arte: “”"In otherwords moral absolutism, “my ethical standards are the only correct ones, and if you don’t agree you’re wrong.” the same sort of self-righteousness that founded the crusades (another heavy use of “honor!” types).”"”"

   Amen! Honor is subjective to those who know the real meaning of the word. Any intelligent being knows that what is honorable to some may not be to others, and only the self-righteous believe that those who don’t agree with them are dishonorable.

   Simon: “”"”The similarities with the Mars series are well known and have been documented by a number of people over the years. I don’t think that’s of great relevance here. We could list numerous other works that appear to have inspired Mr Norman, but this is about copyright not the author’s inspirations.”"”"

   Yeah, but there’s a difference in similarities and word replacement, which, upon further investigation upon passages selected out of both books, is damn near verbatum. Actually, if you go to fans of the Mars series who think Norman did the ripping off, they make quite a compelling case, and even readers of both series and who are fans of both, seem to both say it’s a bit more than ‘inspiration’.. But it’s so well known as you say, so why drag it out? Let’s just agree he was *heavily* inspired. lmao!
5. 

   Seola Sassoon
   

   Feb 15th, 2007
   

   I don’t frequent Gor groups, as I am not into being someone’s slave, but has anyone ever made the comparison to black slavery?

   If this man were to write that it was okay and it was will to lock up *inserts random groups here, such as blacks, Jews, Catholics, Asians, French, etc.* and beat them because they deserved to know their place, feed them disgusting food while you feast, make them use buckets for bathrooms… isn’t this the same form of slavery as the Gor theory? Segregate a group and propogate that some people deserve to be slaves and so it shall be law?

   Would people be so ready to embrace it if it wasn’t based on sex, but race?
6. 

   LemuelB
   

   Feb 15th, 2007
   

   Artemis,

   —”"a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY ”
   In otherwords moral absolutism, “my ethical standards are the only correct ones, and if you don’t agree you’re wrong.” the same sort of self-righteousness that founded the crusades (another heavy use of “honor!” types).”—

   You may think so, but that is not at all how I see it. What is “moral” is largely dependent on culture and upbringing. Honour in the sense I am talking about means my own actions will conform to what I believe is right – it does not mean trying to force my own morals on another – as you are apparently trying to do.

   —”"It seems to me that you are the one being self-righteous here. I did not mean to imply that Goreans are the only ones that understand honour or take it seriously. Though I can see now that my words could be taken that way – for that I do apologize.”
   “That is one of the differences between people that consider themselves to be “Goreans” and other folks. The word “honour” still means something and is taken seriously by Goreans.”
   I don’t see how it COULDN’T be taken that way.”—

   Yes, and after re-reading what I had written I realized that what I meant was not clear – and I apologized for that. I also attempted to clarify what I meant – pointing out that I do not believe all persons that call themselves “Gorean” truly understand what the word “honour” means. And yet you continue to paint me, and all Goreans, with the same brush. It seems to me that you are the one dealing in absolutes here.

   —”Not to mention that sense of self-inflation is something I hear from goreans constantly, how they’re so honorable and no one else is, and how horrible it is that the world is in this state, likely just before they go lock their slave girl in a cage or beat her with a whip. That’s what i’m talking about with moral absolutism, clearly the kind of morals that support a worldview that allows for massive slavery aren’t the same morals as others who would say “wow, that’s fucked up”, but you’re more than willing to categorize this sort of behavior as a “keen sense of ethics”.”—

   This appears to be yet more absolutism on your part. Because some of the Goreans you’ve dealt with act that way they must ALL be that way, right? There couldn’t possible be anyone that calls themselves “Gorean” that doesn’t conform to you narrow view of them, eh?

   There are really very few Goreans that seriously believe society should embrace slavery. Not even John Norman believes that real slavery or brutality is a good thing. In his book “Imaginative Sex” he says that people who get off on actually whipping other people, or people that get off by being whipped should see a psychiatrist.

   I believe that John Norman uses slavery in the Gor series as a metaphor to explore what he sees as the natural relationship between the sexes – namely, that men are the naturally dominant sex of the human species and that women are the naturally submissive sex of the species. And I agree with Jayson Watkin’s comment that Norman’s use of slavery (an extreme example dominance/submission) in the Gor series is a “NOW/feminist backlash” against the equally extreme claims made by militant feminists that there is absolutely no difference between men and women – that they are entirely the same.

   You may not see it this way, but I – and many other Goreans – do. There is also a great deal more to the series than just slavery. As I said previously, the concepts of honour and duty are a central theme in the books. Norman also advocates a love and respect for the natural environment – lauding the benefits of clean air and the beauty unspoiled wilderness. Unfortunately, most critics of the Gor series ignore these aspects of the books and focus exclusively, and usually take literally, the way slavery is portrayed.

   —”My problem with the HEAVY usage of “honor” in gor is how it’s abused to support the “keen ethics” of Gorean slavery, national socialism, and militarism philosophy, and that Goreans for people who disparage when their “honor” is mocked, are more than willing to insult others for not having it.”—

   I’m sure there are some who call themselves “Gorean” that do indeed do this, but please stop making the mistake of thinking that all Goreans do. And I would like to point out that I did not insult you – I merely made an observation that those who mock honor often don’t understand it or appreciate its importance to those who do understand it. In my haste to reply I made the error of using an excessively broad generalization, but I certainly didn’t stoop to calling you names or casting negative aspersions on your character, or that of anyone else that disagreed with me, as you claim.

   I wish you well,

   Lemuel of the Builders
7. 

   Wayfinder Wishbringer
   

   Feb 15th, 2007
   

   It’s difficult to comment on the Gorean slave concept, especially in regard to RL slavery. For one thing, RL slaves rarely have a say in the matter. From what I understand, SL Goreans pretty much choose the life of their own free will. I haven’t read the books so I can’t comment there.

   Slavery as a concept isn’t ALWAYS a bad thing. There are accounts in history of beneficial slavery, in which a man sold himself into servetude to earn a living (because he didn’t have land or a business of his own, couldn’t find a job and needed food and shelter). Some would argue that slavery exists in corporate America today when we contract ourselves into “servetude” to a corporation. (Slaves aren’t always necessarily poor, especially if they’re put in charge of wealth. They were often paid above and beyond room and board).

   Does this make the Gorean concept right? Does it make it “non degrading”? That gets back to the age-old philosophy, “Is it wrong to look at people (women in particular) as chattel if they like it?” My personal feelings and beliefs cannot mandate the actions of others.

   In Elf Clan, we found such to be somewhat objectionable, in part due to personal ethics and in part due to Elven lore. Goreans were welcome in our lands and respected, so long as they did not practice slavery on our lands (ie, the chains and slave poses disappeared). We always requested such compliance politely. If a “Master” tried to tell us to not talk to his slave, we politely informed him that on Elven lands, our rules applied and his slave was equal to him. In other words, we respected the people, but the Gorean philosphy was parked at the door.

   How did the Goreans respond? Some Goreans were Elf Clan members as well, even though the two philosphies were diametrically opposed. On our lands they obeyed Elven Law; what they did elsewhere was their perrogative. As a whole, Goreans didn’t particularly like or agree with Elves, but they treated us much the same as we treated them: we were welcome in some Gorean lands, so long as we didn’t try to impose our Elven philosophies upon them. Seems to me the way it should be. “When in Rome”…

   As for honor, there’s no question the honor of the Elves was something quite different than the honor of Goreans. I found many instances in which an “honorable” Gorean had to be reported to LL for sexual harassment. But at the same time, “honrable” Elven sometimes had to be reported for other offenses. Although individuals can influence the reputation of a group (and sometimes I had to deal with that when one of our members stepped over the line and insulted someone), in truth, a group should not be judged by individual members. I never judged Goreans by the occasional jerk, and hoped they returned us the favor.

   Do I personally condone or accept the Gorean way of life? No. Do I carry picket signs around their sims for degredation of women? No. I do believe there is a certain element of Goreans (male and female) who are slaves because of emotional instability (a feeling of worthlessness, self-loathing, etc), but then, the same could be said of other groups. What causes someone to don Furry outfits and engage in what many lable as bestiality? What causes women to prostitute themselves in pimp clubs? What causes people to be vampire victims? What causes girls to walk down a street naked on a mature sim? If there is one thing that is universally true on this earth: there are twisted people and mental issues abound. Surely a Gorean slave is no different than a dancer in a nightclub. Both feel “honorable” in what they do. As pointed out above, everyone’s sense of what is “honorable” differs. Or as a popular writer once put it, “Each man is a hero in his own eyes.”

   Now as to what IS honorable, my personal beliefs: Honorable is adhering to what is right. Honorable is sticking to principles no matter what the cost. Honorable is keeping one’s word when given. Honor avoids hurting others, assists those who are weak, respects others (sometimes even when such is not warranted). Honor is loyal to those that trust you. Honor looks your enemy in the face rather than stabbing him in the back. Honorable is being truthful. Honor doesn’t mean being perfect; it means being able to admit it when one is wrong and trying to correct what damages are done in the wake of one’s errors. Honor means treating others as they deserve to be treated– and better if it is within our power. Honor is kind. Honor means having self-respect because of knowing that one lives in a manner that is true and just. Even evil people can evince some honor, although they themselves are not honorable. Usually, it means keeping one’s word to others once it is given. The man who breaks his word, has no honor. If an honorable man breaks his word due to circumstances beyond his control, he either corrects the matter or humbly asks forgiveness for such failure.

   Honor is not arrogant. Honor is not spiteful. Honor does not seek the harm of others, but requires punishment of those who intentionally bring harm. Honor is ethical. Honor is righteous, but not self-righteous. Honor seeks the good of others, wins out when all else fails, and when an honorable person dies– that honor lives on.

   As to whether honor exists in Gor, or among Elven, or in real life in our everyday dealings with our families, friends and even enemies– that is for each individual to determine.
8. 

   LemuelB
   

   Feb 15th, 2007
   

   Seola,

   —”I don’t frequent Gor groups, as I am not into being someone’s slave, but has anyone ever made the comparison to black slavery?”—

   Yes, even some people that enjoy the Gor series have made the comparison. There is frequent poster at the World of Gor forum that is constantly making that comparison. I also believe Luther has written an essay comparing Gorean slavery to historical types of slavery – though, IRC, his comparison was not limited to black slavery as practiced in the United States.

   —”If this man were to write that it was okay and it was will to lock up *inserts random groups here, such as blacks, Jews, Catholics, Asians, French, etc.* and beat them because they deserved to know their place, feed them disgusting food while you feast, make them use buckets for bathrooms… isn’t this the same form of slavery as the Gor theory? Segregate a group and propogate that some people deserve to be slaves and so it shall be law?
   Would people be so ready to embrace it if it wasn’t based on sex, but race?”—

   Others have made the same point – and it is certainly a valid point when dealing with someone that actual advocates slavery exclusively for one sex – but, as I mentioned in my reply to Artemis, there really are very few Goreans that seriously advocate society embrace slavery. Also, if you were more familiar with the Gor series, you would know that there really isn’t much beating or extreme mistreatment of slaves in the books and even the free persons in the books use buckets for bathrooms on occasion. Also, Gorean slaves are not exclusively female, as many apparently believe.

   Contrary to what you may have heard, the society in the books sees nothing wrong with making men slaves too – especially when those men belong to a rival city. Indeed, the males slaves in the books are treated every bit as badly, if not worse, than their female counterparts. There is, however, an attitude prevalent among the men in the books that women are “natural” slaves. It should be noted that the free women in the books do not share this view.

   What I believe is the source of all the controversy – and animosity – over the Gor series is that Norman portrays the women who are enslaved as reveling in their servitude, while the men that are enslaved do not. Norman’s premise is that women are naturally submissive while men are naturally dominant – and they are most happy when they embrace and follow their natural tendencies.

   Now I can certainly understand that people wouldn’t necessarily agree with that, but another concepts that Norman presents in his books is that people should take exception with the idea that we should try to hide who and what we are or the idea that we should conform to someone else’s idea of what is “correct.” Norman encourages his readers to be true to themselves. Which I think most people (or at least those who are not politicians) would agree is a good idea.

   But I’ve rambled on enough (more than enough in some opinions I’m sure), so I’ll stop now.

   I wish you well,

   Lemuel of the Builders
9. 

   Simon of Tabor
   

   Feb 15th, 2007
   

   Having informed Richard Curtis of some of what has been said and claimed here, he sent the following message. One of his colleagues has asked for more information about what was said here, so that may not be the end of the matter.

   The message:

   “I’m happy to reaffirm to anyone who wishes to know that we are John Norman’s authorized agents and publishers and that we have designated you to act on our behalf concerning any suspected copyright infringements. Feel free to give them my email to ask.

   Richard”

   If anyone wishes to contact Richard they are quite welcome to ask me and I’ll pass on Richard’s email address.
10. 

    Seola Sassoon
    

    Feb 15th, 2007
    

    Thank you LemuelB for a well thought out response. I’m glad you took it as a genuine question and gave real answers instead of just ranting one way or another.

    BTW, anyone else find it incredibly creepy, that Simon is still pressing the issue? Especially on a virtual world news blog? *tongue in cheek* It’s Prok in disguise! *tongue back firmly on the bottom of the mouth*

    And dammit, I can’t get that song ‘Rehab’ by Amy Whinehouse out of my head. Freudian connection? Dammit, now I’m theorist-ist.
11. 

    Seola Sassoon
    

    Feb 15th, 2007
    

    And to Wayfinder as well, for a great response.. (sorry, hadn’t gotten that far, just responded to Lemual and saw Simon’s on the bottom).
12. 

    Urizenus
    

    Feb 15th, 2007
    

    Seola, if Simon is good enough to come here and give his client’s perspective, let’s be grateful for that, and not attempt to muddy the waters by casting doubt on whether he is who he says he is. If you actually have some reason to doubt it is him besides the obvious platitude that anyone could be anyone here, then please give your evidence. Meanwhile we have testimony from reliable people we know in SL that it *is* the IP lawyer for Norman.

    All you are going to accomplish by suggesting it is someone else is to discourage other informed people from coming here and posting, and that would be a shame, because people ranging from Raph Koster to Philip Linden to the metaverse development company people do post here from time to time. Yes, sometimes they get spoofed too, but I would rather run this on the basis of trust and good faith and deal with spoofings when they happen than live in constant suspicion, especially when there is, at the moment, no good reason to doubt this is Norman’s lawyer.
13. 

    Simon of Tabor
    

    Feb 16th, 2007
    

    Just to clarify, I’m not a lawyer. I am however the designated copyright agent. Of course I’m pressing the point, as I don’t particularly like being branded a liar. I’ve no problem with anyone wanting to verify what I’ve said, and I’ve provided a simple means for doing so, but Seola is apparently not interested in the truth, and for whatever reason is still intent on casting doubt on what I have said, ignoring the testimony of others on the subject. The fact is that she is the one here who has fraudulently claimed to be someone she isn’t, an action that may yet return to bite her. Perhaps she has some hidden motive for trying to undermine my position, a guilty conscience perhaps, though as yet background checks have not revealed anything beyond an ordinary life in Colorado.
14. 

    Simon of Tabor
    

    Feb 16th, 2007
    

    Just to clarify, I’m not a lawyer. I am however the designated copyright agent. Of course I’m pressing the point, as I don’t particularly like being branded a liar. I’ve no problem with anyone wanting to verify what I’ve said, and I’ve provided a simple means for doing so, but Seola is apparently not interested in the truth, and for whatever reason is still intent on casting doubt on what I have said, ignoring the testimony of others on the subject. The fact is that she is the one here who has fraudulently claimed to be someone she isn’t, an action that may yet return to bite her. Perhaps she has some hidden motive for trying to undermine my position, a guilty conscience perhaps, though as yet background checks have not revealed anything beyond an ordinary life in Colorado.
15. 

    Seola Sassoon
    

    Feb 16th, 2007
    

    “”"”Meanwhile we have testimony from reliable people we know in SL that it *is* the IP lawyer for Norman. “”"”

    Might want to check your testimony there Uri.

    Even Simons says he’s not a lawyer. So even those people with testimony are wrong.

    “”"though as yet background checks have not revealed anything beyond an ordinary life in Colorado.”"”

    Uh duh, that’s in my SL 1st life profile and on my email account, which I freely provide here. Trying to scare me? Give me a break. Hey, why don’t you go ahead and email me something other than my location at the USAF Academy (not a cadet though) or that my name is Mary. Both items that I’ve given out freely through SL. If you ran a background check, you should easily be able to provide my previous 3 addresses, any criminal records, and bills that have been/are in my name. Go right ahead and email me that, then I might believe you.

    I’m sure that they are THRILLED that you handle legal issues, and are claiming to be running ILLEGAL background checks, especially since aside from my social, you can’t run one without my authorization, written or implied, and last time I looked in those posts up there, there’s nothing to do so.
16. 

    Simon of Tabor
    

    Feb 16th, 2007
    

    “Even Simons says he’s not a lawyer. So even those people with testimony are wrong.”

    Urizenus mistakenly referred to me as a lawyer, but that is the only detail that is incorrect. I don’t recall anyone else making that mistake here, and I think you’ll find the testimonies referred to by Urizenus are in fact correct. Though you still clearly refuse to admit it, everything I have said has been accurate, as far as I am aware, and I corrected the mistake by Urizenus (an honest one, as it’s reasonable to assume that an authorised copyright agent would be a lawyer) simply because I have no desire for anyone to think me something I am not. If you can provide actual evidence that I have said anything at all that is not true, then present that evidence. The fact is though, that what I have said is completely verifiable, but of course if you were to verify it you would have to admit you were wrong, so naturally I don’t expect for a moment that you’ll do so.
17. 

    Wayfinder Wishbringer
    

    Feb 16th, 2007
    

    I always regret when a thread drops to personal attacks (and mind you, I’ve been a in a few of those myself. Stuff happens).

    This is a thread about copyright issues in Gor. If someone doubts Simon’s statements… that’s their right, and right to say so– IF they have basis for such other than sheer personal opinion. If it’s based on nothing but opinion based on zero evidence, then it’s trollish behavior. People have rights to behead trolls, but then, there’s always more trolls. “Keyboard cowards” abound and they do and say things they wouldn’t dare in RL… and there is no shortage of them.

    Is Simon a lawyer? By his own admission, no. Is he an authorized copyright agent? Possibly. Were people right in questioning his authenticity? Well, from what I’ve seen of bogus posts here on these blogs, maybe. Was anyone right in insulting him in the process? Did anyone actually insult him in the process? I dunno. Like yesterday’s newspaper, I’ve already forgotten what was posted.

    But I do know this: the information he present was spot on and should serve as sufficient warning to anyone involved in distributing the Gor works in SL. His warning, my warning and the warning of others should provide sufficient notice not only to those people but to Linden Lab that Federal Law is involved here.

    So if the Gor folks suddenly decide to bring Wrath of Sam down on LL and SL and a court order demanding RL identities and IP addresses– well, no one can say “What? I didn’t know!”

    And that’s really what it comes down to. Not Simon’s intentions or Seola’s intentions or Uri’s intentions– but simply what is legal and what is not legal. There’s a bunch of interesting posts up there that are pretty factual. Bickering aaside, I found it informative and interesting. Bickering and accusations need not enter into it.

    Again, I understand how easy it is for such to happen. Been in a few bickers myself. Especially when I’m out of coffee. Or have drank too much coffee. Either one.
18. 

    Seola Sassoon
    

    Feb 16th, 2007
    

    “”"Urizenus mistakenly referred to me as a lawyer, but that is the only detail that is incorrect.”"”

    I wasn’t the one who said that sources called you a lawyer, so don’t make it out like he was wrong on what he said and that it’s my fault. Either he is wrong or the sources are.

    I have absolutely the right to call into question any ‘official’ statements, especially by someone that no one knows, and that has been a ‘fan’ of the series for many years, posting on boards, and consistently regurgitating information. I actually found out quite a many interesting things about you and what others have to say, but I choose to leave that out for that is opinion, but I do like how you sidestepped and non email of my ‘background’ check.

    And Wayfinder, you make it clearer than I could have.

    I never said what Simon said was untrue. In fact, I gave no notice period to what he said in his post. I did however question others who said ‘official response’.

    So while he (Simon) sits here and piss pots over my questioning, and threatening me, and claiming to do illegal searches, he still makes no good grounds. In fact, the ONLY place I saw where any control over DMCA issues, is by posts himself. There is no other contact info, no other info I *could find* (note I say could). Not to mention, trying to sound important in the process, in those threats and calling out.

    In fact, I actually never said he was or wasn’t anything 100%. I said I have my doubts, and that anyone reading anything on an internet site that requires nil for correct info should have some too. That’s common internet sense.
19. 

    Seola Sassoon
    

    Feb 17th, 2007
    

    I should clarify, no other information readily available through statements on any sites through the internet, or statements made on behalf of the companies, which was the initial cause for my questioning.
20. 

    Simon of Tabor
    

    Feb 17th, 2007
    

    Seola, you said:

    “I wasn’t the one who said that sources called you a lawyer, so don’t make it out like he was wrong on what he said and that it’s my fault. Either he is wrong or the sources are.”

    Actually, you did say that:

    “Even Simons says he’s not a lawyer. So even those people with testimony are wrong.”

    As I said, it was not the testimony of those people that was wrong, but a misunderstanding by Urizenus.

    I don’t have any problem with anyone doubting what I have said. For that reason I provided a simple means for verifying it. However, until a few moments ago you have ignored that and repeatedly tried to undermine what I had said, including by fraudulently posting as someone you were not, claiming point blank that I was a liar.

    I have indeed been a fan of the series for some years, long before my involvement with the publishers. I never said otherwise. That’s exactly how I came to be involved with them. If you had wanted to know the story there I could easily have given an abridged form. The very abridged form is that I contacted Richard Curtis in 2005 asking about copyright permission for a project I was working on, and our relationship built up from there.

    As to the background check, I did nothing illegal. I didn’t perform the kinds of background checks the authorities can, but simply did much the same as you did about me, it appears. If you have a complaint about that then I would have the same complaint about you.

    “nil for correct info” Hardly nil. The general copyright information I gave was entrely verifiable from any decent website on copyright, and my authority on behalf of John Norman easily verifiable with a simple email to the publishers.
21. 

    Brace
    

    Feb 19th, 2007
    

    weel… when you got links like THIS

    http://www.geocities.com/goreanbooks/

    Still floating around…..
22. 

    Alex Fitzsimmons
    

    Feb 19th, 2007
    

    It does seem at least possible that this Simon person is legitimate.

    Curiouser and curiouser if so, as it would seem infinitely more prudent to hire a lawyer to do the work of … a lawyer. You know?
23. 

    Simon of Tabor
    

    Feb 19th, 2007
    

    The link posted by Brace is dead – none of the pages show anything. They probably pointed to a site I’ve already dealt with. I will have this page taken down though. It should be gone within about a week.

    I should point out that Brace, by posting that link here, has himself committed the offence of Contributory Copyright Infringement. Please do NOT post any links to any of these sites anywhere, or your actions could, potentially, result in the place you posted the link being closed down.

    It isn’t necessary for a lawyer to carry out the work I do. I don’t do anything that would involve the courts. Should that be necessary then I would pass the matter over to the legal department of E-Reads. All I do is make polite requests to have illegal material removed, and if need be issue Notices of Infringement to the service providers, which will invariably be acted upon in order for the service provider to avoid liability themselves. Anyone, providing they are authorised to by copyright holders, can issue these notices. Anyone whose website or articles, for example, have been copied without their permission can issue such a notice.
24. 

    Gorean Furry
    

    Feb 19th, 2007
    

    Simon, if the links are all dead, how does his linking make him guilty of Contributory Copyright Infringement?
25. 

    Simon of Tabor
    

    Feb 19th, 2007
    

    When the link was posted he was clearly under the impression the links were working, and by posting it he was encouraging the use of them, and therefore encouraging the infringing of copyright (whether that was his intention or not). That’s Contributory Copyright Infringement. The fact that the links didn’t actually work isn’t relevant to that.
26. 

    Brace
    

    Feb 21st, 2007
    

    Brace is a SHE and SHE could give a FUCK.

    I’m always rabble rousing. So what ya gonna do? SUE me?

    The point I’m making is this: People have been running around infringing on Norman’s copyright for decades. While I appreciate the ambitions of the gors in SL to try to clean their own act up – its too little too late.

    Those of you who came in from AWgor know EXACTLY what I’m talking about.

    Keep on educating people on this subject, because its an important one.

    But if yer goal is to save the works of Norman from being pillaged, pilfered, copied, exchanged, deseminated and so on in general – better luck trying to delete all the copies of Carbon X-Flight Rod in SL.

    Me posting a defunct link is not gonna make a difference one way or the other. Better to contact Norman’s people and see if he gives a fuck, or if THEY are actually doing anything about this.
27. 

    Alex Fitzsimmons
    

    Feb 21st, 2007
    

    Given that Simon is not a lawyer, I would take any statements he makes about the law, no matter how official he makes himself sound (and even no matter how official he may be in the role he claims), the same way you’d take such statements made by any other layperson:

    With a grain of salt.

    Unless it’s coming from the mouth of a lawyer, you can and should pretty much ignore it.
28. 

    Seola Sassoon
    

    Feb 22nd, 2007
    

    “”"”"Seola, you said:

    “I wasn’t the one who said that sources called you a lawyer, so don’t make it out like he was wrong on what he said and that it’s my fault. Either he is wrong or the sources are.”

    Actually, you did say that:

    “Even Simons says he’s not a lawyer. So even those people with testimony are wrong.”"”"”

    Do what? I think you need to read what you quote. I didn’t say “sources” called you a lawyer. I said they were wrong or Uri was.

    “”"”As to the background check, I did nothing illegal. I didn’t perform the kinds of background checks the authorities can, but simply did much the same as you did about me, it appears. If you have a complaint about that then I would have the same complaint about you.”"”"

    Ah yes, the infamous ‘Google’ although then it just goes to show proof you lied. There is nothing about me anywhere except I live in Colorado, so how could you possibly make the statement of an ‘ordinary’ life? Sorry if you feel being a mother is ordinary, because that’s all the public information there is out there. I bet there’s about million people out there, that are so grateful that you think being a parent is ‘ordinary’. Since that is all the information you have, that’s the only conclusion you could make about ‘ordinary’.

    It does certainly conjur the whole debate that ‘if you don’t do as I do, or live how I live, then you aren’t anything special’.
29. 

    Seola Sassoon
    

    Feb 22nd, 2007
    

    “”"”Given that Simon is not a lawyer, I would take any statements he makes about the law, no matter how official he makes himself sound (and even no matter how official he may be in the role he claims), the same way you’d take such statements made by any other layperson:

    With a grain of salt.

    Unless it’s coming from the mouth of a lawyer, you can and should pretty much ignore it.”"”

    Amen Alex!
30. 

    Seola Sassoon
    

    Feb 22nd, 2007
    

    Oh, btw – all those special little things SoT does? A cease and desist has pretty much no bearing until one is sent by a lawyer or government agency (such as a judge). While it’s a nice request and all, what he sends cannot be considered a warning in a court of law, so if they refuse, then they must get a cease and desist from a lawyer (by certified mail, which means going through the ISP to get the person’s real name and personal information), before it’s considered ‘recorded’. Emailing, leaving comments, etc. cannot be considered in any way shape or form.

    Posting links to material that is infringement is not illegal in any way, shape or form. Those who utilize those links are infringing, or who repro the content from that link. The owners of the domain can’t sue me for linking http://www.insertspecialnamehere.com if the page is publicly accessible and I have provided nothing but the link. I cannot however, directly link content either.

    Brace didn’t do either of those things so, therefore, there’s nothing you can do SoT, so quit trying to threaten people all the time, when they don’t agree with you. Most people here aren’t dumb enough to fall for the ‘I’m gonna get you’ routine.

    BTW, SoT, I think you need to read up on Contributory Copyright Infringement. It has nothing to do with people who are just posting links.

    In case you didn’t know (which I don’t think you do) -

    Contributory Copyright Infringement – requires (1) knowledge of the infringing activity and (2) a material contribution — actual assistance or inducement — to the alleged piracy

    To succeed on a contributory infringement claim, the copyright owner must show that the webmaster or service provider actually knew or should have known of the infringing activity.

    Both these, which in all it’s defintion glory, Brace was not distributing the material therein, nor was the maintainer of the page (AFAIK, who knows?) and therefore falls in neither accepted category for CCI. Simply posting a link is not considered facilitating, the link itself does not connect to the infringing copies, only to a page that allows others to go foward on their own. This was widely debated and summarily discussed in law cases after the Grokster case and exactly what the terms mean, and how far it could be persued.

    If Brace had posted http://www.talismanofgor.com and it lead directly to the book itself, as in front page, no click throughs, there might be a minute case, but more than likely any lawyer who takes that case to court would be laughed out of the profession.
31. 

    Benjamin Duranske
    

    Feb 24th, 2007
    

    I am considering running a more complete analysis of the legal side of these issues on Virtually Blind shortly. It looks like there’s a lot of misinformation out there about what Mr. Norman’s agents do and do not authorize, and even more about what Mr. Norman’s copyright actually protects.

    If anyone has any other information that might be helpful (I’ve already emailed ‘Simon of Tabor’ and am trying to get in touch with Mr. Curtis) including links, in-world locations, contacts, etc. I’d love to hear from you.
32. 

    yo momma
    

    Feb 26th, 2007
    

    yoy suck
33. 

    Urizenus
    

    Feb 26th, 2007
    

    Benjamin, keep us informed on what you come up with.
34. 

    Slip
    

    Feb 26th, 2007
    

    While it’s copyright infringement to reproduce the books in form of notecards on SL, it costs 200-400$ per hour to hire a lawyer. Your talking several thousand dollars in costs to sue several people on Second Life whom would only be responsible for a couple of hundred dollars in damages per person. I’d put money on the fact that this will never be brought before the bench.

    Not to mention, the person that reproduced this from the book will be held civily responsible as the copyright declaration was in the books to begin with, not on the bootlegged notecards being passed around. The people who receive it from someone else has to be knowledgeable of the fact that it was copyrighted to begin with. And you have to legally prove that in court which is not easy.
35. 

    Wayfinder Wishbringer
    

    Feb 26th, 2007
    

    Slip, appreciate your comments, and to an extent they’re valid. However…

    I think it would be pretty difficult for someone to convince a court that they didn’t know the “Gor” books were copyrighted. A judge might tend to doubt such a claim.

    And if someone is found guilty of copyright infringement, the matter doesn’t involve just a couple of hundred dollars worth of material. Copyright conviction can bring fines of $250,000 and (if I remember right) a 5-year prison sentence PER INCIDENT.

    So if an author seriously wanted to impose his rights (and had a publishing company behind him who wanted to make an example of the offenders), they likely wouldn’t go after some small guy who drives around a clunker because he spends all day long Goring around on Second Life. They’d hit him just for a launching board– then hit Linden Lab for everything they could get. Attorney fees aren’t going to phase them, because the publishing company has its own attorneys on salary. And those attorneys tackle copyright issues every day, twice on Mondays.
36. 

    Ed Rertenberger
    

    Apr 15th, 2007
    

    Who cares. If John Lange were smart, which he is, he would allow such publicity for his novels. Nobody knows of them now anyway. This Gorean Roleplay thing is an obscure attempt by non masculine males to somehow acheive their masculinity and for homely females to somehow become feminine. John Norman’s books should die out. Consider this fact; if they were saleable, wouldn’t people be selling them en masse? Well, they are out there in thousands of websites for free and available in e-books and such, but rarely ordered. Why? THEY ARE NOT POPULAR PEOPLE! Yes, John should allow and advocate such proliferation on SL to market the books. By his not stopping or sueing anyone on the websites, yet providing commentary acknowledging the existance of text versions of his book, clearly deliniates the difference between you fat wanna be men and women, and his clear understanding that by having a text versions inspires you wimps to buy the real books. Copyrights? HA! Wanna be’s who need a “Victory dance” in their pathetic lives is really the issue here.
37. 

    Former Reallifeslave
    

    Apr 29th, 2008
    

    All I can say is if I was rich, I’d buy the copyright. Then draw legal charges against all those who would break the copyright infringement. Then I’d proceed to destroy every one of his books!

    Does anyone have any idea what pain and horror it is to be a real life slave? To be kidnapped, taken from your family and forced to sexual service for every person that pays your owner? To only be seven years old (if that) and have every hole in your body torn into again and again. Do you ever wonder what it’s like to have narcotics forced down your throat, till you willing take all them to the ease the pain? And you take them so you won’t feel another crawl atop you to use you like a piece of meat. Oh and lets not leave out the STD’s, pregnancies, forced abortions or what’s worse they take your baby to sell it. Maybe the child will be sold to a nice couple but what is more likely they sell it to a pervert who likes to screw infants. Some slaves are in so much emotional pain they resort to cutting themselves up if they don’t mange to kill themselves or be killed by the slavers. Why do they romanticize it?! Think it’s all just a game?! It’s beyond sick!
38. 

    Roleplay is Roleplay
    

    Sep 19th, 2008
    

    Former Reallifeslave,

    I can appreciate your sentiments and I don’t think ANYONE is advocating the kind of life you mention in your post. The problem as I see it with Gor is that, although Gorean philosophy may cover many things besides just slavery, and while on Gor, slavery is only 2-3% of the population, clearly due to John Norman’s personal sexual fantasies the Gor books past a certain point focus very heavily ON the slavery aspects. (Wow that was a run on sentence.)

    That would be all fine and good if that was where it ended. Because it is true that many women are submissive and many men are dominant. And many many women have rape fantasies, where they actually achieve orgasm while fantasizing about nonconsensual sex that remains nonconsensual throughout the entire fantasy. (This has been reported with women who have been raped and women who haven’t been raped.) BUT it is a fantasy. And that is the point. No one REALLY wants to be raped, because it’s a tautological impossibility. You cannot want what you don’t want.

    If you want it, there is some level on which it is not rape, even in a context where the person might do it anyway.

    The problem is that Gorean philosophy really is much more elegantly expressed by the ancient Greeks, and the extreme attention to slavery in the books, makes it hard for someone to not be totally repulsed by “Gorean Philosophy.” Because it’s one thing if it’s a fantasy, and I’ll admit the scenarios in the Gor books make me hot, and I’m a female. But…it’s another to try to have a philosophy based on it. Even if Gorean Lifestylers are just for consensual slavery situations, the books don’t express primarily consensual slavery situations.

    It’s a complicated issue. I personally wish that Gorean Lifestylers did not exist, because it makes it harder for me to enjoy the sexual fantasy of the Gor books.

    But some people do live in consensual slavery situations and that is fine. Dominance and submission is a continuum. And human beings basically DO dominate and submit. Even if it isn’t always sexual, and even if someone doesn’t call anyone “Master” literally. But there are those who do have deep and more extreme submissive and dominant tendencies who act it out in real life in a consensual slavery arrangement. I am one of those people.

    This does not mean that I have no concept of real involuntary slavery. Nor does it mean I think it’s “okay.” I most certainly don’t. No one wishes to romanticize involuntary slavery. But assuming a consensual slavery arrangement romanticizes involuntary slavery is like saying dominant consensual sex romanticizes rape. It just doesn’t. They are two very different things.

    While some SL people are Gorean Lifestylers, I’d say many are just Gorean Roleplayers. And even if they are Gorean Lifestylers, since the way Gor slaves are treated in the sims goes against actual ethical behavior, they are Role playing at least SOME of the time in Gor.

    I hope that I have no offended you or caused you additional pain, should you happen by and read this.

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