Gorean Copyright Fight
by Pixeleen Mistral on 11/02/07 at 6:51 pm
Ethics of copyright violations divide Gorean community
by Curious Rousselot
For over a year, a Gorean copyright fight has been raging over the ethics of distributing the novels of Gor in Second Life. John Norman’s Gor novels are the basis for the Gorean role-play – and some eager Gorean scribes have ignored real life copyright in their zeal to spread the good word of Gor.
At issue is whether it is appropriate to distribute Second Life virtual copies of a book from the real world. 26 books, beginning with “Tarnsman of Gor”, were written and published between the 1960s and 1990s. These works spawned the Gorean community and describe the core philosophies and lifestyles for the Second Life Goreans. The works are real books, and clearly covered by modern real world copyright laws.
Thraxis Epsilon and Arete Calliope fight against Gor copyright violations
Arete Calliope, the Scribe of Ko-ro-ba, and a number of others are fighting to keep the copyright of the novels of Gor respected in SL. She and her friends have succeeded in bringing the leaders of several Gor sims to their way of thinking. Arete said to me, “Well, my Ubar, Scar Statosky, is fervent in his support of my work.” (An Ubar is the leader of a city in Gor). In other interviews I learned that Fidelio Matador, the owner of Glorious Ar, and Kelerion Kava, owner of The Plains sim, have both outlawed the books from being kept in their scriberies – the Gorean equivalent of a library – and the shops found in their sims.
The work to respect copyright isn’t easy. Arete confessed that, “I have tried and tried to tell people but they won’t listen” and “it IS an issue and I see it becoming rampant.” It does seem to be a hard fight to win.
When asked about how the effort was going, Arete said, “There are many Cities that don’t seem to mind [having the books available], which I find very upsetting.” When asking around I was given copies of several of the Gor novels from a number of people and found a partial collection in Kyna as well as in a Gorean store called Gwail Bits & Pieces Design. Attempts to contact the administration of Kyna went unanswered.
There are certainly alternatives to having the copyrighted books in SL. The Scribery of Ko-ro-ba is collecting as much original SL Gorean writings as it can find. They are working on a collection of the written rules from all the various Gorean sims and have a collection of nearly a hundred original essays by Luther Matador, a Gorean philosopher and scholar. I have reviewed some of these essays and they are incredibly detailed.
Fidelio Matador, Administrator of Glorious Ar, had been working on a project to transcribe the books of Gor two years ago when he was a scribe for Port Kar. When the team he was working with realized the copyright problem they canceled the project and destroyed all the SL transcriptions he had been working on.
Fidelio Matador – Administrator of Glorious Ar
This January Fidelio Matador, now Administrator of Glorious Ar, also found that Uhuru Onmura was advertising having SL copies of the books available through the Gorean group he runs. He quickly put a stop to it by declaring that the group (of around 600 at the time) was not a place for those sorts of announcements, “After I discussed it with the offender, and after she allowed as how because she was not in the US she did not care about US laws, thus refusing to retract it herself, I posted an announcement to that same group stating that the group shall not be used for this purpose. Period. No controversy, it is the law – my law.”
Uhuru Onmuru answered my inquiry for an interview and has come to the same conclusion as the Ubar of Glorious Ar. In the Interview, Uhuru said, “I must admit that i did this new version of the first volume of the Gor series in a state of “overexcitement” having become the new scribe of the city of Brundisium. Also i have to admit not to have cared much about the copyright of them since these books were around as long i am in SL and Gor. But after a few days i thought about it again and decided to stop the whole edition of the Gor books. I also asked all persons who received the books, as far as i remembered them, to delete the copies.”
When one chooses to enter the Second Life Gorean sims, some feel there is a need for at least a passing understanding of the culture and philosophy described in the books. As such, availability of the Gor books could help with successful role playing. In an effort to see how difficult it would be to obtain a copy of “Tarnsman of Gor”. I dropped by a real life bookstore and asked about availability. “Kristy” – the clerk at the desk was nice enough to check not only the inventory of the store I was at but also a shared database used by most of the bookstores in the city. No store had a copy. She explained to me that they weren’t currently available for back-order either; which means the publisher’s warehouse is also out-of-stock. In a city of over 2 million people I would not be able to purchase a new copy of this book.
Fidelio Matador also pointed out that there are legal e-books of the Gor novels available for $7.50 each.
The world of Gor is a work of fiction detailed a series of novels written by Professor John Lange under the pseudonym of John Norman and beginning with “Tarnsman of Gor”. These books spawned a cult following and in turn are the basis for the Gorean community in SL. Described in these books is a caste oriented society with a strong underlying philosophy of being true to one’s self. The society described in the books is based heavily on Roman, ancient Greek and early middle-eastern societies. The philosophy described in the books come from John Norman and is explained in great detail in some of the later books.
Although I have not read the books by John Norman I learned quite a bit about the culture of Gor in SL and much of what I learned surprised me. The philosophy that the people I interviewed seem to have two underlying principles. First, men and women are fundamentally different – not just in looks but also in behaviors. And these differences are encouraged in Gor, not discouraged as some goreans I spoke with thought our world does.
The second aspect of the Gorean philosophy that I learned is that there is a strong sense of personal ethics within the community. This is sometimes seen in their apparently harsh laws and always in the behavior of the people I interviewed. All of them seemed very polite and honest with me.
Artemis Fate
Feb 11th, 2007
SL isn’t the first place to offer his books for free, there’s probably tons of websites that offer them, I know I knew of about 3 from as far back as 6 or so years ago that had all the gor books. So the whole thing is a bit pointless, not to mention of course that they’re out of print almost entirely (I think Tarnsman may still be in print, but it seems none of the publishers, not even the sleezy porn ones, particularly want to touch the series)
Ouchquack
Feb 11th, 2007
Well done Curious. That’s a fine story.
Curious Rousselot
Feb 11th, 2007
Artemis,
I do know about the outside sources but I write about “Second Life”, not “Real Life”. So, what goes on in real life is only relevant if it relates to second life.
As far as finding the books. The last printing of “Tarnsman of Gor” was in 2001. The publisher has not officially discontinued printing but does not have a next print run scheduled (I did check).
Ouchquack,
Thanks, it is always nice to know your work is appreciated.
Urizenus
Feb 11th, 2007
Agree. Excellent story. Whatever one may think of the morality of gorean culture in Second Life, it is incredibly robust, and this illustrates one aspect of it — the role of the scribes in the Gorean community.
Artemis Fate
Feb 11th, 2007
“I do know about the outside sources but I write about “Second Life”, not “Real Life”. So, what goes on in real life is only relevant if it relates to second life.”
Well, I think that the crusade to stop copyright violations of his book, would relate deeply to the fact that anyone interested could just look it up on the websites and transfer it over or just transfer notecards with the websites name.
Whatever, I was just pointing that out.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 11th, 2007
It’s good that Curious took up this story, and it’s well written. But there’s a major flaw, and I’m not going to stampede with the other fanboyz here.
Let’s take a look at this misrepresentation of Gor: “First, men and women are fundamentally different – not just in looks but also in behaviors. And these differences are encouraged in Gor, not discouraged as some goreans I spoke with thought our world does.”
Um….yeah. Uh-huh.
I’m here to say that it is not an excellent story unless you maintain some critical distance from the subject. I’m all for community journalism. But you should not misrepresent what could mildly be called the “controversial nature” of Gor by saying it is merely about “fundamental differences between men and women” or to describe a brutal, thuggish slave cult as “being about encouraging differences”. That’s a total whitewash. And it’s not necessary to do any Gor apologizing just to do this story — you can describe it neutrally, but at least accurately.
To say that “differences are encouraged” is intellectually dishonest, and morally suspect. Gor subjugates women as *lesser* beings and makes them slaves because they believe these differences make them *inferior*. Please, let’s not be confused on these obvious topics.
Now, whatever idiots start a slew of attacks about how the Goreans’ cult merely makes the slave actually the owner because the sub is really controlling the dom blah blah blah BLAH will be summarily ignored as suffering from mind-meme overexposure.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 11th, 2007
A good critique of Gor:
http://www.strangewords.com/archive/gor.html
Another critique of the books, in Salon:
http://archive.salon.com/books/feature/2000/05/18/gor/index.html
Another thing I found a bit suspect was this idea that the books are “out of print” and that “they might be lost”. They’re available on a number of sites, like this one:
http://www.pantheusbooks.com/
Thunderclap Morgridge
Feb 11th, 2007
I have two questions about this. First though, for those of you that don’t know. Book copyright functions differently than music. The author retains all the of the rights, and parcels them out to the publishers who then allow the printers to print them. This happens whether it is vanity published, online house published or one of the big boys (simon and shuster for example). So has anyone bothered to contact John Norman about this? That would solve alot.
Also, from the article you are obviously unaware of a provision of copyright law called derivative works. This means that any work that uses any content from a published work belongs to the author of that published work.
Fan fiction: that which is done in the same universe as the novels but either with the characters themselves or outside of this falls under that.
Im sorry Curious and the rest of you, but by writing anything gorean you are violating Norman’s copyright. Realistically, by roleplaying Gorean you are violating his copyright because you are using his concepts and ideas without his permission.
I know because I have a published novel “Summon the Heroes” on sale at Amazon right now.
Quick solution Find and contact John Norman or his estate. I would hate to hear that you all got a cease and desist order because you didnt.
Artemis Fate
Feb 11th, 2007
“I’m here to say that it is not an excellent story unless you maintain some critical distance from the subject. I’m all for community journalism. But you should not misrepresent what could mildly be called the “controversial nature” of Gor by saying it is merely about “fundamental differences between men and women” or to describe a brutal, thuggish slave cult as “being about encouraging differences”. That’s a total whitewash. And it’s not necessary to do any Gor apologizing just to do this story — you can describe it neutrally, but at least accurately.”
I’m not going to get involved in yet another gorean debate, but I have to agree with Prok on that one. Saying that Gor celebrates the differences between men and women is like dumbing down Slavery in 19th century America as “a celebration of the differences between Africans and Europeans”.
Nacon
Feb 12th, 2007
This gets to nowhere. You’re fighting for the copyright…. OF A CULTURE!?
wtf.
I know this is about the book…. but Gorean in SL was all about culture, as they claims it is.
Make up your damn mind.
Any culture can just wear hip-hop outfit and still go with Gorean’s way in relationship and what not, but just focused on 17th-18th century outfit based on a book is indeed, an copyrighted issue.
You don’t see every Buddhists being forced to wear a robe, do you? If they are, then it’s a cult, not culture.
Seola Sassoon
Feb 12th, 2007
Thunderclap hit the nail on the head. It’s technicality more or less, but anything where anyone were to write even a sampling of their own Gor based story, is in fact using derivitave works.
What I’m wondering, is if he did have the material copyrighted and such, some of those are only 25 years timeframe, is it possible his early works would be succeptable to legal derivitaves?
Anarchist
Feb 12th, 2007
This was revolting. An entire culture crippling itself; less whole, less vibrant, less creative, just plain LESS… and proud of it… all to respect some goddamn law written by people who they don’t know and who don’t even want to know them.
Worshipping beaurocracy as if it has something to do with morality or right vs wrong is just idiotic. Screw the law. Be who you are, and do what you will, and stop letting somebody else’s paperwork be anything more than the random scribblings of strangers.
Jonas Pierterson
Feb 12th, 2007
The books have been removed on the majority of discovered sights due to legal impications. This is the same thing as letting people download a text file…it violated the copyrights.
Kathy Vox
Feb 12th, 2007
I was wondering what the whole thing was about, so I just ordered a copy of Tarnsman from Amazon. It was reprinted May 06 and easily available. 10.91. In stock and eligible for supersaver shipping.
Jennifer Christensen
Feb 12th, 2007
Kathy, why waste $11 on it when you can get a good idea at this link what the whole thing is like
Enjoy “Houseplants of Gor” – and it’s free to read, no worries of copyright.
Houseplants of Gor
Prokofy Neva
Feb 12th, 2007
>This was revolting. An entire culture crippling itself; less whole, less vibrant, less creative, just plain LESS..
Why is it “more cultural” and “more vibrant” to copy someone else’s work? Write your own damn story.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Feb 13th, 2007
“SL isn’t the first place to offer his books for free, there’s probably tons of websites that offer them, I know I knew of about 3 from as far back as 6 or so years ago that had all the gor books. So the whole thing is a bit pointless, not to mention of course that they’re out of print almost entirely”
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a book being out of print has anything at all to do with whether it’s still under copyright or not. That assumption is simply incorrect.
“Realistically, by roleplaying Gorean you are violating his copyright because you are using his concepts and ideas without his permission.”
Don’t be silly. To a degree, yes, fanfiction writers can be accused of copyright infringement, although there’s little to be gained by this other than forcing them to take their stories down. But “roleplaying Gorean” as copyright infringement? Luckily, no, even the US police state hasn’t gone that far into controlling individuals. That day MAY yet come, but for the moment, it’s still possible to cosplay or engage in a collective “let’s pretend” session without having the Thought Police instantly descend on you.
Anon
Feb 13th, 2007
Prok: that statement might have been the most blatantly, purposefully ignorant thing I’ve ever seen you write.
Artemis Fate
Feb 13th, 2007
“You seem to be under the mistaken impression that a book being out of print has anything at all to do with whether it’s still under copyright or not. That assumption is simply incorrect.”
Actually, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I was under that impression. I was talking about with that that because almost all the books are out of print, it’d be hard for someone to pick up them.
Fidelio Matador
Feb 13th, 2007
I would like to take personal exception to Prokofy’s choice of words in expressing his opinion of Professor Lange’s philosophy and of the character and conduct of Goreans as an example of bigotry and hate speech. Lack of tolerance by the selfrighteous is no less intolerance simply because it is the selfrighteous who are displaying it. Bigotry is unacceptable no matter who displays it. Drive-by hate speech is a cheap shot and unbecoming the intellectually honest. No, I do not want to debate the merits of Gorean culture here, but I sure will debate having a class of people of whom I am a member badmouthed in a public place where supposedly we do not dis classes of people.
The reason why unauthorized distribution *or sale for profit* of Professor Lange’s work is outlawed in Ar is simple, and has nothing to do with bureaucracy nor actually with law and order as such. It is outlawed because I despise thieves and theft. Professor Lange’s work is for sale by legitimate channels, and downloading and using pirated copies is simply theft, from him personally. If someone wishes to steal, I will neither aid nor abet the commission of that deed.
Curious Rousselot
Feb 13th, 2007
Prok and Artemis (and any others) who complained about my last few paragraphs that attempt to explain the nature of the Gorean culture in SL:
That was put in there because almost every ‘Gorean’ I talked to (most didn’t make it into the article) wanted me to try and explain their point of view.
I will take your criticism as a constructive suggestions for keeping my articles better on-topic in the future.
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Feb 13th, 2007
I’m not exactly sure what the controversy is here. Because the law is pretty plain.
From what I remember, current copyright law is for the life of the author plus 25 years for works written after 1955 (if I’m mistaken, someone catch us up please).
So that brings it down to, “Is the copyright still in effect, and if so, has the author or his inheritants authorized publication of his works on Second Life, which like all other businesses, does fall under United States Federal law.”
If the copyright is no longer in effect, then the work is public domain. No problem.
If it is in effect, then the duty falls to the author or his inheritors to file civil– or in the case of copyright law– even criminal charges.
If that happens, they won’t be filed against members of Second Life, since it will be impossible to trace who is “publishing” such work. To my knowledge, the target of the suit would be Linden Lab (regardless of how much their TOS may try to absolve them of activities on their board). The arguement could be made that it’s their board, their software and therefore they are the publishing agency (there is legal precident). Linden Lab is aware that copyright infringements take place all the time on SL. If they are aware of the existence of copyrighted tomes on Second Life and have not taken active steps to remove it, that can be construed as accessory to the crime, aiding and abetting, etc.
In most instances the author would have his attorney send a polite but firm letter requiring the removal of all such information from the board, and the offending company would immediately take all necessary steps to remove such existing inventory from the board, with stern warning to members of bannishment from the board should further such works be created. If they ignored such a letter, they would then face the standard fine of hundreds of thousands of dollars PER INCIDENT and a possible prison sentence of 5 years. (Not that this would likely happen, but there is always that potential if the author decided to set an example).
So controversy? None that I can see. Copyright law is plain… a company either obeys or disobeys, and after that, it’s up to the copyright holder to uphold his legal rights.
Jayson Watkin
Feb 13th, 2007
Anything created after January 1st, 1978 is protected for the life of the author plus 70 years, or if the work was done for a corporation, 95 years. Anything created before that date receives 28 years protection plus a 67 year extension. John Norman took the extension in 1994 for the 1966 registration of Tarnsman of Gor. The copyright lasts until 2061.
Looking at some of this copyright controversy, I wonder if people are letting their Gor prejudices shine through. No one objects to fans dressing up and acting like Star Fleet Officers, Green Lanterns or Jedis, even though those are copyrighted concepts. In fact, the SL herald reported on the closing of Hogwarts and that is also copyright protected. As a footnote, Anne Rice has forbidden and sought to enforce her derivative copyrights to slash fiction featuring Lestat and other vampire characters.
Yes, Gor can be seen as misogynistic. I see Gor as a form of NOW/feminist backlash. But if people are willing to experience the roleplay, why is it an issue to others? Is any kajira truly in Gor without wanting to be there? While there are “slaves”, it is not equivalent to forced servitude.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 14th, 2007
Jayson, it’s not about dressing up, or RP, or even fanfic. It’s about taking the wholesale pages and chapters of the book and passing them as entire texts around on notecards. That’s not right. There’s a notion of “fair use”. This goes far beyond it.
The Hogwarts people didn’t reproduce swathes of text and video and whatnot, they merely dressed up in the costumes and RP’d.
Alex Fitzsimmons
Feb 14th, 2007
“Actually, you seem to be under the mistaken impression that I was under that impression. I was talking about with that that because almost all the books are out of print, it’d be hard for someone to pick up them.”
That’s a wholly irrelevant fact. Out of print or not out of print, the legal situation remains very much the same. I don’t think it was unreasonable for me to take your bringing it up to mean you misunderstood copyright law because after all, there was no other meaningful reason to mention it at all.
But apparently, you just randomly felt like throwing it out there, despite the fact that it has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. Okay. Fine.
Anyway, as was already stated, the legal situation is pretty clear. Maybe Norman really is dumb enough to actually go after this, too. I’d find it amusing if he did, to be completely honest.
As things currently stand, the exposure he gets for his out-of-print, aging pulp novels is worth its weight in gold. People probably seek out and buy real copies of them, where and when they can, solely because they’ve first encountered them in SL or elsewhere on the Web. If Norman decides to pursue this vigorously, he will win, of course — he holds the legal high ground. His novels will then likely promptly fade back into obscurity.
Jayson Watkin
Feb 14th, 2007
In order to clean up my earlier posting due to confusion, there was a post by thunderclap talking about how any roleplay or use of Gor, including original works of text and art, could be considered an infringing derivative work. After his posting, no one mentioned or complained that the Hogwarts sim is an infringing derivative work.
Of course, reprinting the original text is an illegal act and the main thrust of the article. But any original fan-created Gor works would also be illegal as derivative works.
Artemis Fate
Feb 14th, 2007
“That’s a wholly irrelevant fact. Out of print or not out of print, the legal situation remains very much the same. I don’t think it was unreasonable for me to take your bringing it up to mean you misunderstood copyright law because after all, there was no other meaningful reason to mention it at all.
But apparently, you just randomly felt like throwing it out there, despite the fact that it has no bearing on the matter whatsoever. Okay. Fine.”
Well, talking in the perspective of the fan, it’s extremely relevant, if I want a copy of a Gor book, and simply can’t find one, then I might turn to alternative sources. I know that’s really the main reason I went for some of the text books despite a preference for the real thing, there just weren’t any out there, Amazon would either not have them (and it only had them on the “used” part to begin with) or it’d have them for outrageous prices like 60-100 dollars. I wasn’t even refering to the legal situation there.
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
I thought I should add a few comments of my own. For those who do not know me, I have been involved with John Norman’s agent and publishers on various projects over the past two years. One of those projects was the new editions of the Gor series.
The entire series has been extensively revised by John Norman himself. Some books have been extended by more than 20%, and overall something like 500,000 extra words have been added to the series, so John Norman’s revisions are clearly quite extensive. These revised editions have recently been published by E-Reads in ebook form. They can be legally purchased at Fictionwise ( http://www.fictionwise.com/servlet/mw?t=author&ai=185&id=384689 ). The full series is also being prepared for publication in paperback form and these will be available in the very near future. In addition, for those who are concerned at the cost of purchasing a 26 book series legally, a deal has recently been signed that will see a significantly cheaper alternative on sale in due course, the first installments of which will hopefully be available by the end of this year. Finally, plans are being made to republish all of John Norman’s other books, and also to publish the long awaited final Gor book, Prize of Gor.
Another area that I am involved in, directly relevant to this article, is Gor copyright enforcement. I have been legally authorised to act as a copyright agent for John Norman and have the full legal authority to deal with any website or individual who infringes the copyright of the Gor books. I have so far dealt with more than 30 websites and message boards, and although some of these removed the illegal content voluntarily, the majority needed official Notices of Infringement, which usually resulted in the entire offending site being shut down by their service providers. I prefer voluntary action by site owners, but I can and will take this kind of enforcement action if necessary.
I think it’s worth briefly outlining exactly what is and is not allowed under copyright law. Firstly, what IS allowed. It’s quite legal to post quotes from the Gor books, under the Fair Use provisions of copyright law, but as a rule of thumb these quotes should be no more than 1,000 words in length.
What is NOT allowed is the publishing of entire books either to be read online or downloaded. It is also illegal to publicise any illegal source of Gor books, something that many people are unaware of. It’s a common view that merely posting links to illegal sites, for example, is not illegal since they are not responsible for the illegal material itself. That view is false. The fact is that anyone advertising illegal sources of copyrighted books is committing the offence of Contributory Copyright Infringement, by knowingly encouraging others to infringe copyright.
Basically anyone who offers illegally copied Gor books, no matter how that offer is made, or advertises other illegal sources, is committing an offence and the consequences could be severe. As yet no actual court action has been taken but that is a possibility which has not been ruled out should it prove necessary. Although no court action has yet been taken, as I said a number of websites and message boards have been shut down, sometimes for as little as a brief offer to pass on an illegal file.
I am already aware of some within Second Life who are involved in the illegal distribution of pirated Gor books, and in due course I will take action if they do not cease their illegal activities. Linden Labs, who run Second Life, have a clear policy regarding copyright, which can be found at http://secondlife.com/corporate/dmca.php.
Anyone with information regarding Gor copyright infringers, whether within Second Life or elsewhere on the internet, is welcome to contact me privately, and in confidence. I’m grateful to all those who actively oppose Gor piracy, including Arete Calliope and her colleagues in Second Life, and will do whatever I can to support them in their efforts. Richard Curtis, John Norman’s literary agent, once used the term Thieves of Gor to describe those who infringe Gor copyright. He and John are keen to see these individuals stopped, and Gor piracy stamped out, especially now that the full series is available legally.
Now, I’ve noticed that the subject of derivative works has been brought up, and it might be helpful to comment briefly on that. John Norman is known to be generally opposed to fan fiction, which is clearly covered, as derivative works, by copyright law. While action similar to that outlined above could be taken against the writers of fan fiction, there are currently no plans to do so. I cannot guarantee that will always be the case though, so all writers of fan fiction should bear in mind that what they are doing is an infringement of copyright and action could in the future be taken against them. The exception to that are works of parody, which are quite legal under US and international copyright laws. Gorean roleplay is not such a straightforward issue. Some forms of Gorean roleplay could well also be classed as derivative works, especially text based roleplay, but, although no explicit permission has been granted for these activities, I have yet to hear anyone officially connected to John Norman express any real opposition to these activities, so it’s very unlikely that any action will be taken against those who indulge in roleplay.
Anyone with any questions about Gor copyright, or any information about infringes, is welcome to contact me. Thank you once again to all those who support the legal publication of John Norman’s books and oppose Gor piracy.
I wish you all well,
Simon
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
I thought I would directly comment on the following post:
“As things currently stand, the exposure he gets for his out-of-print, aging pulp novels is worth its weight in gold. People probably seek out and buy real copies of them, where and when they can, solely because they’ve first encountered them in SL or elsewhere on the Web. If Norman decides to pursue this vigorously, he will win, of course — he holds the legal high ground. His novels will then likely promptly fade back into obscurity.”
If the books were out of print then that might possibly be true. That is NOT the case however, as I have already said. All 26 Gor books can be downloaded quite legally through Fictionwise and other legitimate ebook retailers, and will soon be available in paperback. Illegal piracy has an effect on legal purchases, so the detrimental effect is far greater than any positive effects. Those who do not wish the books to disappear into obscurity should NOT illegally copy them, but support the republishing efforts and buy legal books. As long as these books are popular, they will remain available.
Artemis Fate
Feb 14th, 2007
Wow an official response, that was unexpected.
“Now, I’ve noticed that the subject of derivative works has been brought up, and it might be helpful to comment briefly on that. John Norman is known to be generally opposed to fan fiction, which is clearly covered, as derivative works, by copyright law. While action similar to that outlined above could be taken against the writers of fan fiction, there are currently no plans to do so.”
Interesting, I didn’t know that fan-fiction was generally considered illegal. Most gorean cities have a shit load of them.
“Gorean roleplay is not such a straightforward issue. Some forms of Gorean roleplay could well also be classed as derivative works, especially text based roleplay”
Now that’s pretty wild. Also, what other kind of roleplay is there in Second Life besides “text based”?
Urizenus
Feb 14th, 2007
Thanks for posting that, Simon, very informative. Hmmm, maybe I should repost this in the main thread.
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
Fan fiction is generally classed as derivative works, yes, which means it’s covered by copyright law. That doesn’t necessarily mean it’s illegal though. Some authors actively encourage fan fiction, and give explicit permission for it, while others accept it but don’t encourage it. It’s widely acknowledged to do much more good than harm, on the whole, which is why there aren’t very many who oppose it, let alone take action against it.
As to roleplay within Second Life, since I’ve never been involved in that I couldn’t comment on what form it takes. I know that there is a large graphical element to Second Life but beyond that my knowledge is limited.
Seola Sassoon
Feb 14th, 2007
What concerns me about ‘Simon’ is the fact that the way to contact him, leads to the http://www.gorchronicles.com site, which is then shown to be an ‘official FANsite’. Due to open in 2 days. If he were truly authorized to speak on Norman’s behalf and gives that sort of information, there would at the least be a proper way to contact him in the legal sense. What he says is correct obviously, but the ‘legal’ defense? I’m not so sure.
To the comment up above… wherever it went to…
LL would certainly have the possibility to be named in a lawsuit for hosting and allowing transfers of the works, BUT by LAW, LL must provide the proper people with real information to track down people in RL if they are found to be breaking laws.
Seola Sassoon
Feb 14th, 2007
Forgot to mention on Simon, it’s quite the norm for ‘fansites’ such as that to go trolling google.com searching for what their site is about and leaving messages on blogs and such to increase the potential for revenues. A few years back, some fansites opened for EQ2, so what’d they do? Go to WoW forums and blog posts, make some sort of statement relevant to that particular conversation, then proceed to list contact info to their own places….
Bernice Norman
Feb 14th, 2007
Simon of Tabor is not authorized in any way to speak on behalf of the Norman family or publications by John Norman. He has asked to run a website dedicated to the Gorean theme based on J. Norman’s books and we have authorized him to do such. However, at this time, our legal representation is not this man.
After further investigation, we will be reviewing his status as an authorized person to run the official website.
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
“What concerns me about ‘Simon’ is the fact that the way to contact him, leads to the http://www.gorchronicles.com site, which is then shown to be an ‘official FANsite’. Due to open in 2 days. If he were truly authorized to speak on Norman’s behalf and gives that sort of information, there would at the least be a proper way to contact him in the legal sense. What he says is correct obviously, but the ‘legal’ defense? I’m not so sure.”
You’re welcome to your doubts, of course. All I can say is that others have doubted my authority to act and regretted it. It makes no difference to me whether people believe me or not, frankly, except that it might mean I have a bit more work to do dealing with copyright infringers. If anyone really wants to check my authorisation then an email or letter to the publishers should do that (and has before). http://www.ereads.com, or email webmaster@ereads.com.
“To the comment up above… wherever it went to…
LL would certainly have the possibility to be named in a lawsuit for hosting and allowing transfers of the works, BUT by LAW, LL must provide the proper people with real information to track down people in RL if they are found to be breaking laws.”
Yep, perfectly true. Also, any Notices of Infringement must be submitted to Linden Labs in writing, not by email, and I of course must, and will, fully identify myself to them. That’s not a problem.
“Forgot to mention on Simon, it’s quite the norm for ‘fansites’ such as that to go trolling google.com searching for what their site is about and leaving messages on blogs and such to increase the potential for revenues. A few years back, some fansites opened for EQ2, so what’d they do? Go to WoW forums and blog posts, make some sort of statement relevant to that particular conversation, then proceed to list contact info to their own places….”
There was no trolling involved – I was told about this article. If you have a problem with me posting the official position on the matterm then fair enough, but I’ll make no apology for doing so.
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
“What concerns me about ‘Simon’ is the fact that the way to contact him, leads to the http://www.gorchronicles.com site, which is then shown to be an ‘official FANsite’. Due to open in 2 days. If he were truly authorized to speak on Norman’s behalf and gives that sort of information, there would at the least be a proper way to contact him in the legal sense. What he says is correct obviously, but the ‘legal’ defense? I’m not so sure.”
You’re welcome to your doubts, of course. All I can say is that others have doubted my authority to act and regretted it. It makes no difference to me whether people believe me or not, frankly, except that it might mean I have a bit more work to do dealing with copyright infringers. If anyone really wants to check my authorisation then an email or letter to the publishers should do that (and has before). http://www.ereads.com, or email webmaster@ereads.com.
“To the comment up above… wherever it went to…
LL would certainly have the possibility to be named in a lawsuit for hosting and allowing transfers of the works, BUT by LAW, LL must provide the proper people with real information to track down people in RL if they are found to be breaking laws.”
Yep, perfectly true. Also, any Notices of Infringement must be submitted to Linden Labs in writing, not by email, and I of course must, and will, fully identify myself to them. That’s not a problem.
“Forgot to mention on Simon, it’s quite the norm for ‘fansites’ such as that to go trolling google.com searching for what their site is about and leaving messages on blogs and such to increase the potential for revenues. A few years back, some fansites opened for EQ2, so what’d they do? Go to WoW forums and blog posts, make some sort of statement relevant to that particular conversation, then proceed to list contact info to their own places….”
There was no trolling involved – I was told about this article. If you have a problem with me posting the official position on the matterm then fair enough, but I’ll make no apology for doing so.
Luther
Feb 14th, 2007
I know Simon and he has been provided the legal authority from John Norman’s agent, Richard Curtis, to help protect John Norman’s copyright. I alerted Simon to the article here as I knew he would be interested in such. This is not a trolling attempt. It is a legitimate effort to protect the rights of John Norman.
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
Apologies for the earlier double post.
There seems to be some misunderstanding regarding my authority with regard to Gor copyright, and I have contacted the relevant people in order to get the matter properly clarified.
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
It’s been brought to my attention that the post supposedly from “Bernice Norman” has the same email address as those from Seola Sassoon. I think we can therefore view that post as somewhat suspicious, though I have contacted John Norman’s agent anyway, to make him fully aware of the situation.
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
Given the claims by Seola Sassoon under the name “Bernice Norman” I think I should restate the truth.
I have in my posession a letter personally signed by Richard Curtis, John Norman’s agent and President of E-Rights/E-Reads Ltd who control the copyright to the Gor books. That letter specifically states that, in accordance with the DMCA, I am entrusted as an agent authorized to act on their behalf.
As I said I have notified Mr Curtis of the comments by Seola. Anyone wishing to clarify the situation can contact the publishers, as I said earlier. I’m sure they will be happy to verify the situation.
Seola Sassoon
Feb 14th, 2007
BTW, the Bernice post was me (Bernice is reportedly John’s Wife’s name). Just giving show to the statement anyone can look official on a blog. I was contacted by Simon in private actually. I’m not sure why the link is so far down the line to get to him from Norman and I’m not totally convinced it’s anyone of authority, since I’ve seen postings way back as a ‘fan’ of the series, but oh well. There’s more theory, but it’s not for me to delve into, since the email was private. Just making the simple statement on the fact that anyone could be anyone, so don’t take ‘official’ at full value.
What I did say stands though about new things happening within a following style and finding out places to post to make the ranks.
He did give me some information to go by, however, I did some research on my own and it seems that the same statements made here were also made a year ago, by ‘Simon of Tabor’ on other boards. Among some of the words written by him:
“”"all 26 books are currently being prepared for publication within weeks both in ebook format and paperback. News on that will be posted here amongst other places.”"”
Posted March of last year.
Also to note, he helps run a few other Gor websites. Look out for psycho fan!!! (I’m just kidding on that by the way.)
Something interesting I did find… these Gor books seem to be close replicas of a far earlier series of books… The Mars Series by Edger Rice Burroughs. Here’s a breakdown:
http://www.geocities.com/delphius2002/id98.htm
“”"”"A Princess of Mars established once and for all a template for what would become known as the ‘sword and planet’ novel. Take one earthman, transport him to the alien world of the author’s choice, and have that world be a combination of advanced technology (with some kind of aircraft), glittering cities and a feudal society in which swords are the weapons of the day and monarchies are commonplace.” (Edgar Rice Burroughs’ Fantastic Worlds, edited and published by James Van Hise)
The Gor series fits this template perfectly. You have your earthman, Tarl Cabot, who is transported to the alien world of Gor. Gor contains some advanced technology such as in the fields of medicine and architecture. There are the tarns, the living aircraft of Gor. There are the glittering Cylinder cities of Gor, ruled by Ubars and Administrators. The basic premise of the Mars books, an earthman adventuring and exploring the different cultures and lands of an alien world, is exactly the premise of Gor. Tarl roams all over Gor, encountering many different peoples and adventures. The correlation could not be any clearer. “”"”
And funny enough, now seeing Luther’s link, it’s the same one! lol
Too funny is that if he’s the one who drew Simon’s attention here about copyright and deritives, he has a page devoted to showing how Norman’s books are more than just a ‘sorta close’ representation.
Seola Sassoon
Feb 14th, 2007
As noted in my previous post, which I was in the process of writing the above when you posted my name, if I had cared to look inconspicuous I would have changed the contact info. As such, I didn’t because that’s how I looked up your info, so anyone could easily make the connection to see it wasn’t someone who was important.
But kudos to actually taking a few seconds to thinking about looking at contact info and posting twice about it….
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
I did indeed post a report back in March of last year stating that the new editions were on the way. At that point I did not expect them to take so long, but these new editions are now available as ebooks.
The similarities with the Mars series are well known and have been documented by a number of people over the years. I don’t think that’s of great relevance here. We could list numerous other works that appear to have inspired Mr Norman, but this is about copyright not the author’s inspirations.
I can verify that I did hear about this article from Luther, by the way.
Indeed, anyone can claim to be anyone else on here. I’ll repeat once again though that if anyone wants to verify the matter then they can contact the publishers. You could also try notifying the publishers of Gor copyright infringements, and you’ll probably find yourself referred to me. Others certainly have.
Finally, to clarify, I am only involved in three websites, in any capacity beyond that of mere member. I have an ancient website of my own which has next to nothing on it and really needs taking down, I am involved in the new website mentioned earlier on, and finally I have recently assisted Simon van Meygaarden to moderate the World of Gor frum, though that is the extent of my involvement with that site (other than as a frequent poster there).
OMG
Feb 14th, 2007
You people are going to argue us all to death. I’m copy/pasting what the Anarchist said above:
“This was revolting. An entire culture crippling itself; less whole, less vibrant, less creative, just plain LESS… and proud of it… all to respect some goddamn law written by people who they don’t know and who don’t even want to know them.
Worshipping beaurocracy as if it has something to do with morality or right vs wrong is just idiotic. Screw the law. Be who you are, and do what you will, and stop letting somebody else’s paperwork be anything more than the random scribblings of strangers.”
Simon of Tabor
Feb 14th, 2007
I am who I am, and I will do what I will, and that includes dealing with Gor copyright infringers, and not screwing the law. I’ll make no apologies for that. For many it’s not a matter of beaurocracy but of honour, and of respect for John Norman, and his rights, especially his right to royalties.
Artemis Fate
Feb 14th, 2007
Beware of any modern day person who frequently references the word “honor” in a serious context.
Ace Albion
Feb 14th, 2007
The Ar policy on texts in the scribery was mentioned to me when I first visited that sim in late 2005. So if there’s a “war on copyright” going on in SL Gor, it’s been for a lot longer than a year.
Lemuel of the Builders
Feb 14th, 2007
Tal All,
I know this won’t mean much to people like Seola, but I also know that Simon of Tabor is authorized by Richard Curtis (John Norman’s agent) to enforce copyright infringements of the Gor series.
I have corresponded with Mr. Curtis and his staff on a number of occasions – primarily as a fan of the Gor series pestering them for information on when the books will be reprinted. In a response to one of my first letters to them they mentioned the difficulties of getting the books back in print when people could just download free, but illegal, copies of the books rather than purchasing them.
Like most people it had never occurred to me that trading book scans would have much effect on the future publication of Gor books because they had been out of print for so long and it seemed that no publisher was willing to reprint them.
But, as Mr. Curtis pointed out to me, the distribution of unauthorized electronic copies of the books reduces the financial incentive for a publishing house to reprint them because there are a lot of people that won’t buy books when they can download them for free. And why bother spending loads of money to print books if the sales won’t cover your costs?
After that letter I began reporting any sites I came across with unauthorized copies of the books to Mr. Curtis and his staff. Unfortunately, since Mr. Curtis represents several authors and has a relatively small staff they were not able to spend much time policing the copyrights of any one particular author.
Last year, in response to one of my emails reporting an offending site, one of the staff asked that I report all future violations directly to Simon of Tabor. This is how I know that Simon is in fact authorized to deal with infringements of John Norman’s copyright.
As Simon mentioned above, if you have any doubts in the matter you can contact Mr. Curtis directly through his company emails – which Simon has already provided.
On Artemis Fate’s comment:
—”Beware of any modern day person who frequently references the word “honor” in a serious context.”—
That is one of the differences between people that consider themselves to be “Goreans” and other folks. The word “honour” still means something and is taken seriously by Goreans.
I wish you well,
Lemuel of the Builders
Artemis Fate
Feb 14th, 2007
“That is one of the differences between people that consider themselves to be “Goreans” and other folks. The word “honour” still means something and is taken seriously by Goreans.”
Actually the only difference between goreans and non-goreans in this sense is that they are so self-righteous to think that they are the only ones that have “honor” and take it seriously without understanding it’s full meaning. It’s just some masturbatory left-over from pulp fantasy swords and sorcery novels. Honor is synonymous with respect (which I might point out, respect however is NOT synonymous with sexual slavery), something that people do daily in modern times, even more so than they did when people were inclined to scream how honorable they are at the top of their lungs.
Which is why I say beware of someone who uses the word “honor” a lot in serious unprovoked context, because chances are the more they claim themselves to be honorable, the more self-righteous, arrogant, and dishonorable they really are.
So get your hands out of your pants everytime you hear the word, and cancel that tattoo session where you were going to put it on a shield with a sword through it on your pecs, because saying you’re honorable constantly doesn’t make you honorable.