Vox Lindeni
by prokofy on 27/02/07 at 10:49 pm
Francis Barraud, His Master’s Voice.
By Prokofy Neva, Dept. of Linden Trees Falling in the Simulated Forest And No One Hearing Them
The Lindens’ announcement that they’re going to add voice to Second Life will likely be met with mixed responses.
In the typical upbeat LL fashion, the Blob tells us that “many” residents wanted to have voice, but in fact this isn’t something we can determine accurately that “most” wanted. Those who truly need voice within SL tend to use Skype, Shoutcast servers, Ventrillo, etc. already. But having it Always On will pose problems for significant numbers.
First, the price tag. We knew when the Lindens said they were “grandfathering the island tiers for a year” that we should count the silverware. We just didn’t think that it would mean they’d add on new features, and then say, oh, you can’t have that new feature unless you pony up the new full freight now. So if you want your island voicified — and the cybering masses may want this or come to feel as if they need this — you’ll have to increase their rent by 50 percent likely, or go out of business, because now you’ll have $295 tier, not $195 tier per month. Mercifully, you may not have to make this radical choice; it seems that IMs between two people can go to voice without having to have the feature on the land where they’re located.
Whenever I think of the voice issue, I think of Richard Bartle’s marvelous essay, “Not Yet, You Fools!” an anti-voice piece about X-box, on gamegirl.advance. It’s perfection. Voice breaks immersion. He’s absolutely right. Here you are all slaying dragons and saving damsels from distress and all of a sudden, thunk, the damsel turns out to be a male trucker, the dragon is your Mom, and you’re bashfully aware that you flat Midwestern accent doesn’t have that Harry Potter plumminess that you imagine your game in, while dashing around a pre-Enlightenment landscape.
The eggheads at Terra Nova talked about this as “Mike Fright”, and while recognizing that voicing breaks the magic circle, they were all for the team-speak of Team Speak because, well, they’re gamerz over there and they got used to X-box.
But you know, we’re not doing NASA flight simulation or organizing raids in WoW as complex as air-traffic controlling a hive of bees through a sieve. We’re just playing Second Life.
We all know who “needs” voice. The Lindens do, first of all. They need it because they want to be like There, WoW, X-Box, and whatever else is out there that either has voice right in the client or uses voice services more routinely than Second Life. They also want to sound like they are really Business-Ready and Business-Savvy and nothing says “Business” like “A Conference Call”. But when Second Life turns out to be nothing more than a conference call, will it be as cool?
And we all know how doesn’t need voice — the deaf, the transgendered, the shy, the insecure, the old, the foreign. That is, all the people who have Second Lives unlike their first lives — and we’re about to find out just how many of us there are like that.
But there will be a lot more conundrums and inconveniences coming along with this voice thing that we haven’t all worked through.
Let’s take the live music. The beauty of a Frogg Marlowe and Jaycatt Nino concert, of course, is that they talk live to you while playing live music. You’re on the keyboard, and Jaycatt’s on the keyboard, but they’re different keyboards.
You can’t interrupt their singing and playing with your own ridiculous voicing inappropriately while they are trying to play. Or…you can, of course, because they may opt to turn ambient world noise off and just play, but then the rest of the venue’s patrons are stuck with you if you voice, just as they are stuck with your clattering keys because you didn’t use the /Harvard Hush backslash, or stuck with your “Ohhh yaaaeah” dumbass noiseclips.
Just like it can be kind of a jarring and unsettling experience flying over the world and listening to 101 god-awful mass-taste horrid radio stations and blasting music of all sorts, so the cacophany of voices may be such a din that you’ll turn it off.
We might see the emergence of type-only sims or communities or events. “She’s a typist,” may come to be a disparagement in some circles, impugning her RL female gender status, or it may become the hallmark of refinement and intelligence — we shall see!
And the big wildcard is performance, lag, visibility or audibility (is that a word?). The Lindens hint at possible trouble by saying you might notice a bit of reduction in speed. That’s their way of admitting that adding voice may be as big a show-stopper for some people’s systems as adding audio and video for movies and music has been. If even they admit there might be trouble — look out! We’ll see. Let’s hope they’ll be truthful about this.
I, for one, am personally unhappy about the move to voice, for obvious reasons. When I came to Second Life, as when I came to the Sims Online, I opted to chose an avatar of the opposite gender because I can. That’s all the reason you need. “The community” as the slathering jackals on various vicious forums describe themselves, have opted to hack and slash at this, first unlawfully outing my RL gender on the official forums, with the Lindens belatedly awarding only mild wrist-slaps, then continually pilloring me and harassing me endlessly for this choice, trying to use it as a lever to prevent my dissent or humiliate me in some way. It’s an astounding double standard, as male-to-female transgendered like Torley get nothing like that sort of harassment. However, it’s a choice I continue to defend, and refuse to yield on, though everything that Second Life has been about for me, whether forums or SLCC or packs of griefing asstards, has tried to erode this. Being forced to use a voice in a virtual world, something not of my choice, against my will — because people in business will all be forced to do this — feels like the ultimate blow. It won’t be — but you do get tired of this crap after awhile.
It’s a sad day when a virtual world, which is supposed to be special, which is supposed to have a magic circle even if it isn’t a game, which is supposed to be about freedom and creativity, makes you do something against your will. There will be many, many others more anonymous than me who will keep typing and therefore endlessly invite suspicion and speculation.
Most of all, what I dislike about this is that it is not truly Vox Populi, the voice of the people. Nobody clamoured for it. It’s a Linden thing. It’s not *necessary*. There are 1000 issues that should be solved before this — like not taking inworld accounts history out of the viewer, like improving FPS and grey squares and being able to teleport. Are they counting on voice to tide them over the worsening performance issues, so that we will be talking to each other because the teleporter won’t be working much of the time?!
Check out the Features Voting Tool and it tells the story about “Voice” in Second Life.
There are five proposals having to do with the word “voice”.
o Prop 2839 has a mere 80 votes from a tiny number of 27 people supporting voice chat in Second Life.
o Prop 2616 calls for voice adjustment meaning the distance at which your typing is “heard” in the existing SL system.
o Prop 2604 talks about people who “have no voice” who are against propositions becuse there is no “no” vote (I have a proposition on this subject, too, as a half dozen others do — one of the deep flaws of the voter system)
o Prop 2186 also has 74 for voice chat from a mere 25 voters because they wish to know “who is an adult and who is a kid”. Hey, watch the grid empty out? And the ageplayers evaporate? That would be nice.
o Prop 2135 is a repeat asking for “hearing back” on a voice proposition, with 15 votes.
o Prop 2111 is a proposal again referring to the lack of voice meaning the lack of a “no” vote, this time with 18 votes from 13 voters.
Telling, eh? And in predictable fashion, the Lindens are defaulting the whole mainland to voice, with an opt-out, just like they defaulted to push, though in fact we may find that the voiced may be a distinct minority. In any event, only 52 people happened to vote for this as far as we know — the rest clearly have other priorities — as the fact that three out of the six “voice” proposals illustrate. They didn’t have to do with RL voice audibility, but having the real voice we need to have in Second Life — a real say in what features are developed and put in the client.
Inigo Chamerberlin
Feb 28th, 2007
‘Either way, I kinda doubt anything will be done about it by commenting on a 3rd party news blog that the Lindens rarely come to, and probably rarely read.’
WRONG… As we know Sunshine Linden is a avid reader for one.
Misty McConachie
Feb 28th, 2007
“4. Voice is also more intimate. I don’t necessarily want to be that intimate with strangers on the internet. Sharing my voice with them IS intimacy. I know this for a fact, because I’ve met many people from the internet irl. Voice is an integral part of my actual person. I don’t want my actual person in SL, either.”
Excellent point. I think you’ve articulated one of my *major* concerns with it.
My voice fits my avatar just fine, nevertheless I’m not sure that I want to be railroaded into experiencing the intimate contact that voice affords with people I can’t even see and have never met in RL.
Ultimately I don’t know the people I chat with in SL *that* well. Regularly people you meet seem normal enough at first, but turn out to be a little loopy over time. Voice is going to add an extra dimension to a crumbling SL relationship!
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Feb 28th, 2007
> am deeply opposed to voice chat in SL unless LL provides a bomb-proof way to add effective voice masking. SL is all about a *second* life – my voice is an exclusive feature of my first life and I want it to stay that way. — Fiend Ludwig< Well-put Fiend. My #1 rule for SL from the day I first signed up: No 1st life here.
I always kept the two totally separate. That's usually best and safest.
>There are enough outside programs people can use without SL wasting their effort having their own. They have too many other things that need fixed first. — Clarrice Cinquett< Bingo on both counts.
>‘I believe it would be difficult to believe you are talking to a small woodland creature if they sound like they are from Northern New Jersey.’
That’s interesting Jayson – what *should* they sound like?
It’s actually a serious question:
MUST all vampyres have a ‘Transylvanian’ accent?
Should all knights and elves sound like members of the Royal Shakespeare Theatrical Company?
And WHAT should a dragon or a drow sound like?
I don’t know about you, but I tend to judge people, in SL and RL, by their behaviour, not Hollywood fueled preconceptions of what they ought to sound like… — Inigo Chamerberlin < OK, in order:
Small woodland creatures sound like records on high speed. Everyone knows that.
Yes, all vampires have a Transylvanian accent. It's caused by the fangs.
And yes, take it from me, all elves speak with an Olde English accent. (Either that, or Irish, ss the mood and clime suits us). For the record, I'm really an Elf in RL, really sound like an Elf in RL (as any who've heard my music show can testify), so voice doesn't matter to me personally. But for my friends... nah, an Elf from Broiklyn just doesn't quite snap. (If you wonder how Elves hide in RL... we get jobs as Vulcans on Star Trek).
Dragons sound like rocks grating together. It's the vocal cords. Either that, or like Marilyn and Coco said-- they sound like Sean Connery. They NEVER sound like a 20 year old drinking a Pepsi.
Drow... well, drow sound like elves, but more shadowy and raspy. Depends really on the drow... whether underground or above-ground. Some sound like wind blowing through trees, some sound like orcs but higher-pitched (and we all know what Orcs sound like).
But for the final point-- hey, RL kills fantasy. Nothing like finding out the beautiful young pixie is in reality an 80 year old, cigarette-smoking, raspy-voice woman. I've never figured out why people insist on sending their RL pictures to SL acquaintances.
Let the illusion remain.
>One thing I wish all of them would do however is to permanently ban all the little twits that do nothing at all other than sit there and complain when they know damn well the company is not listening… In short Coco – I don’t waste my time bitching about the actions of a company. — JAT< Nah, you waste your time badmouthing those who voice their legitimate concerns, apparently because your rants do so much good. Of course, people will fall in the JAT line and stop complaining because you're just plain right.
While I agree that LL appears to pay very little attention to the customer-- if the customers don't complain at all-- they can definitely expect things won't get fixed. We said this once before JAT-- public ire is the big stick customers wield when a company fails to respond to reason. When a company ignores pleas from multitudinous users and instead brings out some new, laggy, bug-ridden toy because of the whim of a bored programmer-- loud and continuous public outrage can make that point known. Even if it gets no reaction from the company-- it might caution others away from investing $$$ in a faulty platform. One way or another, the complaints serve a purpose. If LL had a lick-o-sense at all-- they'd realize this massive an amount of complaints is the result of a massive amount of bone-headed management decisions that were NOT to the benefit of their customers.
>No coco – your idea just happened to coincide with what they wanted. In addition the only time needless bitching gets anything done is when they actually see people leaving over an issue. That’s it. words do ******** by themselves. — JAT< JaT, I have to say, you are absolutely the first person I have met, ever, who believes that words are powerless. Whether LL listens or not-- others do. The established record of LL is that LL does whatever LL wants to do-- unless a group of people start riding their sorry hides until they start listening. As a result of such past "complainers"... we now have Estate Tools and expanded Group functions. Unfortunately, in the case of LL, public and continual complaint seems to be the most effective motivational tool.
Your suggestion of closing shop and closing the pocketbook can be valid (that's what I did) but it carries with it the reality of finality. Not a viable option for those who want to continue using SL. But I'll heartily agree-- that IS the ultimate solution. Someone actually needs to set up a new VR board in direct competition with SL. I think LL would not likely survive direct, intelligently-managed and properly-programmed competition.
>Good for you coco – you’re not the average user. What part of that is so hard to understand hmm? Drop it – you’re an exception, not the rule.<
No, Coco isn’t the average user. She has some brains to her and the ability to see something for what it really is. But– she is not the exception to the rule. I could give you a nice list JAT, of times that I have stood toe-to-toe with Linden Lab and finally scored some benefits for the community. I can point to others who have done the same thing. Estate Tools– Expanded Group Tools– dozens of minor fixes that are too tedious to mention here– all came about because someone got royally ticked put the hot irons to LL until someone finally did something.
So no, Coco’s experiences are not unique– no matter how loudly you shout. You can claim all you want that “it’s just something LL was going to do anyway”… but you have no data or facts to back such statements– it’s all personal conjecture and personal opinion. Which is OK, if that’s what it’s offered as. Attacking others and trying to cram your opinion down their throats crosses the line from debate to trolling. Which is why people take offense at such posts. Ever heard of tact? Just because you believe something doesn’t make it Word-o-God.
Coco and I have both seen a consistent pattern of Linden Lab reacting to pressure from groups of angry customers when they previously failed to consider polite requests.
Sorry guy that’s the way it is. I think Coco and I (as well as Prok and others) have enough experince with LL to know firsthand how the company operates and reacts to customers.
like_ummm
Feb 28th, 2007
Hey – Just a Thought – you didn’t answer coco’s question:
‘I wonder, is there anything LL does that you don’t like? … Is there one thing LL does that you feel you could improve upon, or wish were done another way?’
Answer that question please.
So you waste your time bitching about the bitching instead – do you?
Answer that question too please.
Just a Thought
Feb 28th, 2007
Umm, I answered the question – got anything constructive to ask? No? thought so.
Hate to break it to you wayfinder but a company watches its own ass. That’s the way it works. The only time they listen to the words of a customer is when it is to their benefit. That is the reality. It is in a company’s interest to prevent as many people as possible from taking their money out …. and when a large number of people do so guess what? They change. If they even think a large number will pull their funds – they change.
That is how it works. Please try hard not to believe you can change anything with words alone – it doesn’t work and that is a fact.
like_ummm
Feb 28th, 2007
You did not answer the question again.
‘Is there anything LL does that you don’t like?’
I understand that you may want to dodge that question at all costs since this is precisely what you are complaining about (complaining that is). I understand your agenda – to stop people complaining, to shut down any discussion about these issues…
So I understand that you may never give a straight answer to this question. You’ve made it obvious that you are not interested in any free and open discussion. So – how about you take your own advice?:
You cant change things with your words – so GTFO. Or maybe you think you can change things with words – is that why you are still here? Or perhaps you work for LL?
Just a Thought
Feb 28th, 2007
Umm, I answered the question by stating I don’t give a shit what companies do. It is that simple – and apparently you are incapable of understanding such a simple answer.
Now- kindly take your bullshit to someone that cares hmm?
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Feb 28th, 2007
JaT, I think you’re not getting the point that Like is making. Same point I made earlier.
If you believe that words have no effect, why are you wasting your time here?
If you believe that complaining is wrong… then why are you complaining about the complainers? It occurs to us that if you really believed what you’re saying, you wouldn’t be wasting your time complaining about us complaining. It’s kind of like shooting someone for being violent enough to go hunting.
Sorry guy, your argument is somewhat self-defeating. XD
Just a Thought
Feb 28th, 2007
:Yawn: I’m not trying to change anyone either Wayfinder – that’s the point I’m making – one you and the twit with the teenage valley girl handle missed.
Done missing the point? I hope so, otherwise we’re going to be here for some time.
like_ummm
Feb 28th, 2007
What? Are those words you are using? Are you so naive as to think words can change anything?
When you cant use words to bring about change you can use ummmm… well… wtf can you use? I know – the sword. Afterall – ‘the sword is mightier than the pen’.
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Feb 28th, 2007
JaT, I get one point (and I’m sure the “twit with the valley girl handle” does too):
You’re a mouth. Nothing more. Nuff said.
Just a Thought
Feb 28th, 2007
:Yawn: what was that? That was the sound of the point whizzing right by your head.
when you are ready to cease your rather infantile tactics Umm and actually present something to discuss please feel free to respond to me – until then all you are doing is showing just how much of a twit you really are.
Here is your thought for the day: Do not attempt to debate a point with someone that feels change requires more than words. Do not attempt to debate such over the internet either – no one wins such a debate as all the internet is …. is words on a screen.
Hmm – oh – and please keep dancing to the script.
Just a Thought
Feb 28th, 2007
apparently you don’t wayfinder – here’s the final point: You’re wasting your time in continuing the debate. I don’t give a damn what you say, what evidence you cite.
Corporations are motivated by greed it is that simple. You want to effect a change? Hit them where it counts.
Heres the final point and fact for you: This entire argument is pointless as you’re both just dancing to a script. I’m being an asshole here deliberately and you really should have sen it by now and simply stopped responding.
Until someone says something worth my time to type in response …. I think I’ll go and sit under the stars and smoke my pipe.
like_ummm
Feb 28th, 2007
ok – i’m done – its official JaT is a troll employed by the Lindens.
Just a Thought
Feb 28th, 2007
It’s official – you’re a twit who doesn’t know what you’re talking about.
:yawn: Please get your facts straight before posting in the future – I’m unemployed.
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Feb 28th, 2007
Ok, now that troll-boy has predictably patted himself on the back for being oh-so-clever… back to the theme of the thread… sound on SL.
Linden Lab will do as Linden Lab wants to do. That’s their pattern. The question of primary discussion it seems, is how such will be implemented IF it’s implemented, and what effect it will have on the SL community.
I predict IF it’s implemented– it will further damage the platform. As someone stated above, it will fracture the system into the “soundies” and “texties”. So what if it causes problems and the vast majority of customers don’t like the idea. So what if there are viable alternatives that don’t impact SL itself. It’s always a good idea to further divide the unity of a system, so hey, I say go for it. LOL
like_ummm
Feb 28th, 2007
Yea – sure you’re unemployed – a smart guy like you unemployed? That’s not what I heard. Did Philip himself tell you to say that?
like_ummm
Feb 28th, 2007
Sorry – no more from me…
…Yes this voice thing – They should fix things before they start introducing new stuff i reckon. Now – what kind of action can we as users take? Any good ideas? (not stuff that has been tried before and failed).
We could boycott the beta grid – so they cannot test their stuff – would that hurt them at all? With open source viewer we could introduce premium accounts to pay open-source developers wages…
Inigo Chamerberlin
Feb 28th, 2007
‘:yawn: Please get your facts straight before posting in the future – I’m unemployed.’
Now THERE’S a surprise!
Steamroller
Feb 28th, 2007
Prokofy Neva>>>I’m wondering where people got the idea that Philip was against this. I find absolutely no evidence of it.
In fact it was Philip, who says he hates typing and hates the obstacle and lack of immediacy, that pushed SL into the voiced Town Halls. So he went full speed ahead on voice, using a Skype channel for the townhalls.
Where is he on the record saying he didn’t want voice for the world? Of course he did — he’s the one putting it in now, duh.”
Here is a brief history of Philips position of voice in SL as posted by Persephone Milk on the Linden Blog. While he doesn’t outright say he doesn’t want voice, he certainly is aware of the it’s pitfalls and, IMHO, reflects a determination to do it right or not at all.
Town Hall 3/16/06
Philip Linden: I’m not sure, but I agree that voice would be great for those who want it. It may be that we just open up SL enough, like with better XML-RPC out, etc, that we get that for free. There are already some solutions like that in SL. But really voice chat should be done with 3D localization of the speaker…and that may be easier for us to do. But honestly I’m not sure which way we will go.
Town Hall 04/06/06
Philip Linden: There’s a lot of conversation in the community and there’s been a lot of conversation in this office about voice and voice chat. People in Second Life obviously have a lot of different discussions about how effective voice chat can be, whether it should be something that is broadly available. People often talk about There.com and about how voice works or doesn’t work there. Obviously theres a couple of big sides to the discussion.
Voice is very fast and powerful and expressive as a way of communicating. On the other hand there is a certain magic and power to communicating quietly, communicating with text. It allows people to preserve their identity, or their real life identity, in a way that is very appropriate and consistent with the kind of, you know, new world aspects and new identity aspects of Second Life. So that is something we’ve really thought about a lot.
It’s not an easy thing to match everybody’s desires on this. One design idea I wanted to throw out for discussion in this program, and then in the forums or email or otherwise after this, was if the ability to do voice communication between people was tied to the parcel of land. So it was something you’d click a check box that said “enable voice chat” on a land parcel?, and then the people that walked on to that parcel if they had headphones on and wanted to use would just walk up to each other and voice chat would just work.
That method might be more appealing as a socially balanced kind of approach, because it wouldn’t then allow people to kind of exclude each other by standing and using voice chat anywhere in Second Life while the person standing next to them either couldn’t or didn’t want to, but it would allow, by using it on land, people to create something like an education center where it would be turned on all the time. So I wanted to throw that out, that idea of voice chat on parcels of land as something for people to talk about and think about it.
It seems to me it would be a better idea, a little bit more consistent with the way Second Life works. Also, I think it is consistent with things like the idea of streaming onto a parcel. You stream live music today by parcel. You walk on a parcel and you hear live music. Under this model you would walk onto a parcel or chose not to, and when you were on that parcel you’d be able to chat, just a thought.
Town Hall 05/18/2006
Philip Linden: Well, we’re thinking lots right now, there’ve been lots of people using voice in Second Life, as everyone knows already. We’re doing it right now. There are also some amazing possibilities with voice. There are ways to, even prototypically, extend Second Life to use voice pretty effectively – tie that to property, tie that to objects, etc. So, I think that we’re definitely going to see a lot of voice use. Our concerns have been, and continue to be, great ways of bringing voice into Second Life that don’t alienate those who don’t want to use voice. You know the risk that you increase the communicative capability, or the sort of bandwidth, if you will, of communication, while at the same time reducing it in a different way by forcing people to lose some of the freedom that they have in defining who they are is tough – that’s a hard tradeoff.
Having said that, I think that we need to think positively about voice in general – in other words, we need to as designers, look at what people are going to do anyway very rapidly, and then say, ‘Is there a way we can accelerate that, or make that work better, maybe add features, capabilities, or implementation details that tend to make it easier to protect people’s privacies where they want to have those privacies?’ Again, that’s not a specific direction, but I guess the answer I give is, I think we’re closer now to feeling like voice is something that Second Life needs, but we’re still troubled by exactly how to do that effectively, and we’re thinking about it right now.
Town Hall 7/7/06
Philip Linden: The issue on voice is that we are playing around with this, like others are. I don’t have any specific this is what we’re going to do when we are trying the systems and playing with it in world it is very powerful for certain kinds of communication, on the other hand, I can’t just “be” Philip Linden and keep anonymous as I can when I type. We’d like to see voice filtering and masking, but the technology isn’t very advanced yet and it’s just sort of infuriating. If there is technology that can change your voice, age, gender, and you can’t tell — I’d love to see it.
Prokofy Neva
Feb 28th, 2007
>But really voice chat should be done with 3D localization of the speaker…and that may be easier for us to do. But honestly I’m not sure which way we will go.
It’s funny, like Jesus and Lenin, people push and pull Philip quotes to mean just about anything they want them to.
Philip is playing Physics Kid here. He wasn’t thrilled with voice merely because he couldn’t make it immersive enough to sound realistic with distances and such. He articulates these other community concerns just to be the sort of “peacemaker” type with “on the one hand and on the other”.
He notes that it “has to be done” with the “localization’ and he expresses concern “that may be easier” implying LL itself may not be up to it. But they found a company to put it in for them, they made much of that technical side of it. So they put it in, because they had a technical challenge, and met it.
These folks are like my mom, constantly waxing our floor on Saturday mornings, despite knowing full well we would be home, and we’d walk all over it and ruin it. Finally, she gave us a quarter to go to the movies and get out of the way.
The Lindens only care about waxing the floor and we’re in the way. But they don’t give us the quarter for the movie. For Khamon, the quarter is open-source. For me, it’s participation in decision-making about the features inclusion. For somebody else, it’s something else. But we have neither a waxed floor or a movie.
Steamroller
Feb 28th, 2007
Im not as pessimistic about his intentions as you are Prokofy, nor do I read much into what his true intentions might have been throughout the period covering the above townhall meetings.
The way I see it, the above “were” his true intentions until he sold too much of his soul to the “proverbial devil.”
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Feb 28th, 2007
Question in general: What does it matter what Philip personally wants or doesn’t want, or what he one time wanted and what he wants now? (people’s opinions can change– even Philip’s. Especially Philip’s. LOL).
Of far greater importance is what SL customers in general want, and whether the LL decision making process will take that into consideration– or as we’ve seen in the past totally disregard customer needs and desires and flat do whatever they feel like doing?
I sometimes think that’s what it really boils down to: making arbitrary system-wide decisions that affect everyone. Linden Lab has the right to do so of course; it’s their board. But customers have the right to get royally ticked too. And since the customers pay the bills– it’s natural they might have some objections to such a business philosophy.
I do agree with one thought (and demonstrated it in my personal case): if people are getting tired of the way LL is running things, the best way to demonstrate that is start a board-wide boycott. Encourage people to abandon land, stop paying premiums, drop to Basic or Freebie users, stop supporting Linden Lab projects and concepts and let the company know how ticked off you are. Start an OFFICIAL boycott and follow it through to the end. I boycotted the system by ceasing all support of the board– and the Elf Clan Counsel followed suit. That was our choice. If people really want to get Linden Lab to wake up and take notice, they need to take action. The troll was right in that aspect– despite his self-defeating and anti-social behavior, the way to fight Linden Lab is to do more than complain; you need to hit them in the pocketbook.
If you want to fight the way LL is running things, contact their advertisers and corporate supporters (such as IBM) and let them know how people feel. Start a protest march at Ahern and other newbie intake spots and tell newbies about griefers and land thieves and lag and inventory loss and other such things. Above all, if you know of anyone with the knowledge and wherewithall to set up competition– absolutely encourage them to do so. Second Life is not so difficult a concept that it couldn’t be duplicated in someone’s garage. They might have to start small at first, but I’d lay dimes to donuts that within 1 year they could blow Second Life off the market.
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Feb 28th, 2007
Follow up— Not that I’m advocating blowing Second Life off the market. If Linden Lab indicated any common sense or ethics… if they showed any concern for their customers at all, if they exhibited a trend of learning from and corrected mistakes… well hey, we’d have worked with them rather than leaving the board. But they have consistently demonstrated a lack of willingness to deviate from an obviously failing business model. So if you can’t get a company to wake up (and how many times have they been asked/begged/told to wake up to customer needs?)… then another option is to take ‘em on head to head by setting up a competitive company with a better product. You can bet they’d take notice of customer needs then– if their entire customer base didn’t abandon them in the process.
Nacon
Mar 1st, 2007
Just a Thought said:
“1.) Voice is coming – doesn’t matter if you want it or not.
2.) No one is required to use Voice.
That is all – please return to your regularly scheduled bitching, complaining and all around lack of clear thought.”
Agreed.
Wayfinder Said: “Second Life is not so difficult a concept that it couldn’t be duplicated in someone’s garage. They might have to start small at first, but I’d lay dimes to donuts that within 1 year they could blow Second Life off the market.”
You’re an idiot… another idiot said same thing 3 years ago. Where are they now? Oh yeah… it’s over THERE.com
Second Life is still going strong and you can do nothing but grief like a fucktard.
Wayfinder said: “Follow up— Not that I’m advocating blowing Second Life off the market.”
…
Wayfinder Said: “Start a protest march at Ahern and other newbie intake spots and tell newbies about griefers and land thieves and lag and inventory loss and other such things.”
…you’re an idiot.
(blah blah blah, save your poems about what a troll I am, don’t care.)
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
:Yawn: nothing new I see – just the predictable posts calling someone that managed to get two people that cannot be bothered to know when to stop responding to dance to a tune (a life lesson by the by) a troll and a response from the Valley Girl twit showing just how paranoid he/she really is …. followed by a (failed) smart ass remark from the Prokofy tool Inigo.
Oh – thanks Nacon – glad to see someone agrees.
Bujila
Mar 1st, 2007
Always nice to hear our 24 (or was it 23) years young boy-wonder Just A Thought going on about his knows-all world view
No to worry though Just a thought, you too will grow up 
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
always nice to see some little twit spout off about ‘growing up’ when it’s quite clear they know jack shit about Humanity as a whole, have their blinders on, ignore everything that points out the base nature of Humanity, shatters their optimistic world … I could go on and on but I think I’ll boil it down to this:
Prove that Humanity is not driven by base instinct and that every person is incapable of acting out of true good faith and concern.
I’ll save you the trouble – you can’t. Nor can you prove that the driving force of a corporation is anything but greed.
Please – get over yourself Bujila …. You know nothing of me, my experience, and quite frankly you are the typical example of the bulk of Humanity. Please, go back to whatever it is you normally do and revel in your illusion of a world that does not flow on base instinct within which everyone watches their own ass and only does what they think (even subconsciously) will eventually benefit them.
My benefit right now? Laughing rather heartily at some of the rather predictable responses – and at you for actually thinking you know me.
An Engine Fit For My Proceeding
Mar 1st, 2007
Vocation
The persistent rumours that folk on the Grid will soon be able to hear voices in their heads appear to be approaching a state of reality.
Speaking personally, and after taking medical advice, I have no intention of listening to Otherworldly Voic…
Khamon
Mar 1st, 2007
I’ve been a second class citizen for years for muting both audio and video. People are incessently caressing my soul with explanations of the Joy of Heaven they experience through inworld, land-based URLs. “Please” they beg me don’t deny yourself this most important aspect of our world. Finally it boils down to me just not loving and understanding this world and a few have actually shunned me for thinking myself “too good” to participate in the common media experience.
So I’ve read these posts wondering hmmm would they be willing to do without inworld, land-based audio and video URLs? To me it’s just the exact same nightmare happening over again.
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Mar 1st, 2007
Nacon, ordinarily I don’t reply to pure troll posts like yours, but I do have one question:
What is it in your mentality that thinks that in order to make a point, you have to insult other people? You can’t just say something without calling other people idiots, or worse? Are you so insecure in your beliefs, so lacking in confidence that you have to put down other people to make your opinions seem more valid?
Every forum, every blog is plagued by people who are so arrogant in their opinions that they look down on others and congratulate themselves for being so incredibly intelligent. But I will promise you this: if you do eventually mature, you will look back on this and kick yourself in the butt for having such attitudes. If you live that long, because eventually, you’re likely to cop such an attitude with the wrong person (in RL rather than hiding behind a keyboard)… and you’ll find out that there can actually be consequenses in life for such things. Lost friends, lost jobs, divorce. It will eventually all come back to you.
So advice: either learn the lesson here and… or learn it in real life and pay the extemely heavy price that RL brings to such people.
You don’t have to be a jerk to get a point across. If you choose to act like a jerk anyway– who cares what point you’re trying to make?
Grow up guys.
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Mar 1st, 2007
LOL Bujila. Sounds like you got to him. Amazes me how an unemployed pipe-smoker knows so much about life, the universe and everything. One constant in life amazes me: that there are alwasy people (usually very young people) who think they know so incredibly much that they can look down their noses at everyone else, who of course, dance to their tunes like puppets on a string. Such mastery of life! Such incredible comprehension! The rest of us pale in their glory. XD
And in all of this, the only point that’s been made is that he’s griping about other people griping. LOL. and again, LOL. I’ve seen posts from these two in other threads… and it’s exactly the same: the Troll Twins ganging up on other people and derailing the subject of threads. And amazingly– they’re so durn proud of themselves. Guess that only comes with mastery of universal awareness. The rest of us can only dream to achieve such greatness. :O
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
Wayfinder – kindly follow your own advice hmm?
do you know me? Nope – you do not, therefore you cannot ever be sure of my intent when I post a response.
Now, I’m not going to say this a second time, if it doesn’t sink in this time then it never will for you: The only TIME I EVER jump on someone in a response is when their post (such as the one you have made which I am responding to) shows that they really don’t have a damn clue or that they actually think they know what the hell they’re talking about.
so sorry that I don’t share your optimistic view on life and Humanity – then again I don’t live in a fantasy world where people do things “out of the kindness of their heart” or some other such nonsense.
I see Humanity for what it is – a waste of space. Thus far? Not a single person has managed to make me think otherwise – the exceptions are too few and far between.
With that in mind Wayfinder we come to the part I am not repeating – you’ll either get it and understand or you won’t. are you paying attention? Here we go: I frankly do not give a damn how old you are, what your world view is, what your opinion of Humanity is, or anything at all that relates to any of the prior listed items. To me, you’re just another useless piece of trash living in a fantasy world where everyone looks out for each other (which only happens when the race or society as a whole is threatened)and deserve the treatment afforded such until such a time as you prove you’re not worthless. if it comes to light that you’re one of those few exceptions then expect different treatment from me.
I am normally quite pleasant …. but when it comes to this bullshit? You’d have a better time trying to get the earth itself to stop spinning. sorry pal – age does not always equal wisdom …. and I’ve seen enough to have my belief rooted quite deeply.
I do believe that Humanity may one day rise above its currently vapid existence …. but that day isn’t going to be for a LONG time now – and you, me, even our children …. will be LONG dead by that time.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 1st, 2007
I derailed it. I shouldn’t have. But I’ve been running across Just a Thought’s comments for quite a while now, and I was curious. I did wonder if there was anything LL ever did that he thought wasn’t right, or could be improved upon.
coco
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
Oh – and to give a far more direct answer to your query Coco … plenty but nothing at all related to performance issues or such things ….
My complaints have to deal with their policies on getting rid of griefers and the like (much too lax for my taste) and quite frankly are the sort of policies most would find appalling.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 1st, 2007
Oh dear. But now, I can’t help commenting again. Since we are already firmly derailed, I guess it’s not too big a crime.
Just a Thought, you are going through your cynical phase, but you are taking it to extremes. Humanity is not a waste of space – it is wondrous.
I think all it will really take for you is to just flip your view 180 degrees. Look at the other side of the plane you are currently looking at. It’s there – try it!
Yes, people can and do act out of concern for one another. In fact, it’s genetically wired in. You can reduce anything to self-interest, of course, but that is tautological, as we do, of course, exist.
coco
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 1st, 2007
P.S. Thanks for answering!
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
Sorry coco – already looked at it from every angle and still come to the same conclusion – Humanity is a waste of space. we fight over the most inane of things, rip up and destroy our own planet without pausing until years later as to what we are really doing ….
No – Humanity is a waste of space as it currently is.That is all there is to it.
That is not to say that it cannot grow beyond what it is now – but sadly that day will not come until long after I’m dead – in fact it would take a miracle or an event of equal magnitude to get Humanity to truly unite and grow beyond this stage.
That’s just the way it is.
Oh – and for your information this view of mine only gets aired in certain situations and on certain topics …. The way this was heading it needed to be aired. usually I keep it to myself and only my closest friends ever hear me or discuss such things with me. frankly I didn’t put my view out here to discuss it but to inform of the sort of person some are dealing with.
Me? I’m one of the exceptions – I help when I can, where I can and as a matter of fact would put my life at risk to help in certain situations (beyond the hardwired “save my child!” situations mind you).
You and Wayfinder – and anyone else – are welcome to your opinion – just don’t try and change mine ok? A bit late for that.
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
PS: No problem Coco – you deserve a direct answer …. my prior one to you was more for the benefit of other posters.
like_ummm
Mar 1st, 2007
Just a Thought is a troll employed by the Lindens :yawn: Nacon is the same idiot :yawn: A troll is a person who approaches a board with the specific intention of destroying a forum’s hegemony, either with no particular motive or provocation in mind, other than to be purely destructive or if the motive or provocation is against the ethos of the board. :yawn:
like_ummm
Mar 1st, 2007
As far as protest action goes – i think the first thing there needs to be is an organised place for people to communicate and plan. Small disorganised protests done seperately are never going to be as effective as large co-ordinated protests.
So there needs to be some well-known place for people to congregate and pool knowledge. Is there any such place – what about the SLLA?
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Mar 1st, 2007
You know Jat, I don’t have any problem with your opinions or viewpoints. You think humanity as a whole is rotten? I couldn’t agree more. All one has to do is look at society world wide and that’s pretty obvious. Now, others might disagree– but not me.
Do I think humanity is a “waste of space”? Hardly. I see people do good things all the time. I know many, many people who are selfless, devote their time to others, and do their very best to make the world a better place. The majority– yeah, they’re a loss. In my experience, the majority is usually wrong (mob mentality, effective propaganda and all that). That doesn’t mean that one has to lose total respect for everyone. That’s a loser attitude… an attitude that can be overcome.
Like Coco noted, you appear to be going through a cynical phase in which all you see is the bad. Hey, I can understand that to an extent. But to you, humanity is a total waste– but of course, you’re the exception. You’re a nice guy normally– until you deal with people who disagree with your viewpoints, then all they amount to is “another useless piece of trash living in a fantasy world” (translated: they don’t bow to your negativism). Come on guy, give us a break.
JaT, I don’t live in a fantasy world where everyone is nice-nice. Neither do I live in a fantaqsy world where everyone is garbage. I’m a realist. I see positives and negatives in just about every aspect of life. I even see SOME good in Linden Lab– LOL– though as in RL, the bad outweighs it. I can agree with skeptics and cynics– to a point.
But when that skepticism and cynicism turns into utter disdain and total disrespect for other people– that’s where you stop being a cynic and turn into a troll. You admitted youself above that you were “intentionally being an ass”. I couldn’t have said it better. The major question there is, what do you think you’re going to accomplish? Zip is what you’ll accomplish, and cause people to lose all possible respect for you in the process. If anything, you’ll cause harm to the point you’re making, as people will tend to disagree with you just because you’re being an intentional ass. That’s basic human psychology 101.
You look down your nose at others and proclaim your mental superiority. You have to “explain things twice” and pray that we understand your superior wisdom because obviously, we’re not intelligent enough to get it. You pat yourself on the back for being able to look at the world better than others, and you bathe in your own wisdom. (Do you realize how “teenager” and trite that attitude is? Their parents just can’t possibly understand their incredible, experienced wisdom. LOL). JaT forgive me, that’s just plain arrogant and self-delusional. Frankly, what you personally think of me or others means very little (ie, you’ve caused people to disrespect your opinions as mere trolling). But what you think of yourself in relation to others is going to affect your entire life (and likely already has). Now, that doesn’t affect me one way or another… but I do get tired of the trite self-obsessed soapboxing.
I don’t know what’s happened in your life. I don’t know you. Likely if I did, I would sympathise with what you’ve gone through and even try to help you through it (if you were open to such. Otherwise I’d leave you alone). But news: you’re not the only person on earth who has problems. The idea is to rise above your environment and accomplish whatever you can accomplish regardless. People rise out of the gutters everyday. You seem to be wallowing in yours.
So no, none of us know you. But you don’t know us either. We do know what you post here and how you treat others. Whether we have “right” opinions or “wrong” opinions, whether we see everything or miss some things… at least most here have enough sense to show a modicum of respect for other posters. No one likes a self-proclaimed know-it-all. I’ve seen techs with the same attitude. Rather than helping other people, they disdainfully insult them for being so inferior. That’s bottom-line god-complex nonsense.
If you were to show some respect for others– whether you agree with what they say or not– and you might be surprised how many people would actually sympathise with the basic points you make. But oddly enough, when you hit someone in the nose, they usually don’t appreciate that very much. So I don’t really care whether you’re 15 or 50, uneducated or have a P.H.D., employed or unemployed– how you treat others is how you are perceived. And I’ve seen you and Nacon both throughout these blogs treat others like dirt. I’d lay odds that Nacon is about 12-15 years old… and I’m not impressed with either of you. Not that you care of course– you just can’t resist telling others how wrong they are.
So when you tell me you’re normally a nice guy, most would find that claim a little hard to swallow. You have only yourself to blame for that. You gripe about complaining, but your whining exceeds all concept of complaining on this thread. So forgive me all-wise one, but get a clue. Start respecting others– and you might gain some respect in return.
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Mar 1st, 2007
Like, you’re right. A movement such as that needs organization. It requires either a leader, or a similarly-minded board of leaders. Someone has to take the bull by the horns if they ever wish to wrestle it to the ground. Someone has to start the rebellion in order for it to work.
That’s not gonna be me. I’m too busy paying attention to RL to take on such an immense task. I’m satisfied to cry out The Emperor Has No Clothes. I’m also satisfied to let LL self-destruct (which is a pretty plausible outcome no matter what they do).
One thing I know: with their company attitude, no matter how large they get, they’ll never have the respect of the industry that Philip desires. The best they can expect is to pull another Micro$oft: large company, powerful, and everyone hates them. If that’s the legacy Philip wants, hey, he can have it. But I doubt it will ever get that far. First time an intelligent competitor comes along, Second Life is going to go down like a line of dominoes.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 1st, 2007
I don’t think it would do any good to protest this. I think you might as well stand in front of a speeding locomotive.
coco
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
I show respect when it is earned Wayfinder – and you already earned my respect. simple fact is … at the time of those posts I personally could not have cared one whit less who was on the other end.
There is only so much bitching and bullshit I’ll read before I start ripping into those responding or agreeing with said bullshit and bitching.
Honestly? Having voice in Second Life doesn’t mean jack shit to me – of course I don’t have a mic to use at the moment and even if I did I’d be the one keeping quiet most of the time and quite possibly only speaking up in a lull or simply resorting to typing.
My rather harsh response to this article of utter bullshit boils down to a simple enough train of logic: LL is going to put it in anyway which leaves the end user with two choices – use Voice or do not use Voice.
That’s it – that’s all there is to it and all there ever will be to it.
Now that that is out of the way ….
Kindly don’t lecture me …. I’m well aware of how a forum works and guess what? The people I normally socialize with can tell you that until I become fed up or lose my patience … well I really am a nice guy.
Now, I think I’ll refrain from responding to you for a time Wayfinder … as you are starting to really try my patience….
as for you Valley Girl twit (like Umm) … I’ll say it again since you seem to keep missing it: Get your facts straight before responding to me or posting anything in the future hmm? Paranoid twits like you …. well let’s just say you’d not last long in any of the old forums I used to frequent and at least one I moderated for one simple reason: You assume that because no one speaks out against an entity that they work for said entity.
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Mar 1st, 2007
>Kindly don’t lecture me …. I’m well aware of how a forum works and guess what? The people I normally socialize with can tell you that until I become fed up or lose my patience … well I really am a nice guy.<
LOL. You’ve been lecturing people since message one… and now you’re getting tired of the lecturing? Man, you brought it on yourself. You want to avoid such in the future, clean up your act and show others some respect.
You know JaT, what kinda does bother me is that all this time you’ve been so busy attacking people and “playing” people and insulting people… it seems to have eluded you that in some issues you and I have actually agreed. But the pompous troll rantings masked that all and actually defeated what good you might otherwise have accomplished.
I too, find the majority of humanity in a sad state. I too agree that just complaining has little effect on Linden Lab (although as Coco and I have both pointed out– in the past if exercised in a strong enough manner, such DID have effect). I agree with you that LL has some serious problems. There have actually been a few points above that you made (as I’ve told you already) that I pretty much found to have merit. But in the process you were so busy being superior and disdaining other people and putting others down and labeling others– that you didn’t seem to notice that some of us actually shared your opinions. Not 100%, but certainly no one did anything to earn your hateful attitude.
Standard netiquette: * Don’t call names. * Don’t use labels. * Don’t get personal. * Stick to the subject. * Don’t insult others. * Respect opinions, whether you agree with them or not.
None of us are 100% successful at this, but we don’t go out of our way to be “intentional asses” either. Sorry you didn’t like the lecturing. Maybe now we can get back to the subject.
like_ummm
Mar 1st, 2007
JaT – your posts are getting a bit ‘too long didnt read’ – :yawn: I have it on record from reliable sources that you are working for LL and that you are also Nacon – classic trolling that – post under a different name then aggree with yourself – lol.
Also – not only do you bitch about bitching but now you’re making assumptions about others assumptions – haha u r funny!
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
:Yawn: Valley girl twit – kindly check your ‘sources’ – which by the by do not exist.
If they do, then kindly tell me – what is my second Life User Name? what groups am I a part of …. and am I online right now?
Just a Thought
Mar 1st, 2007
and yes Wayfinder, this thread can now return to the usual …..
Barring anymore bullshit from the newest member of the Paranoid Delusional Brigade – the Valley girl twit.
like_ummm
Mar 1st, 2007
And as for humanity – well I think the whole of it is a wonderful and gorgeous thing. And especially you JaT – you are the most wonderful and gorgeous creature of them all. I LOOOOOOVE you! – come down the valley – I am dying to meet u IN REAL LIFE! pleeeeeease!