Bad Business
by prokofy on 16/03/07 at 5:18 pm
Kids playing “Better Business Bureau” always picture themselves as the chair of the board.
Prokofy Neva, Consumer Watch
Goddamn, here we go again. Yet another stupid, misinformed attempt to create a “Better Business Bureau”. And yet another “ratings” system that styles itself as a “Better Business Bureau” even though, unlike a better system, slrealreps.com, it has no place to write commentary. Can you count like 20 of these in the last two years? (And those are only the ones we hear about). Remember all the “whitelist” debates on the old forums? Gwyn’s pontification? Remember Chili Carson’s big splash with this at SLCC and all the press attention she got? (None of those reporters came back a few months later to discover, as we did, that no BBB ever got made due to pressing RL commitments of the founder).
Like many more competent before him, notorious Second Citizen bad-boy Joshua Nightshade has cooked up the latest BBB “concept” in response to the usual skin-theft hysteria which differs little from all those before him, and works something like this: “No business but my business and my friends’ business.”
Remember when we were kids? We would all climb up in the treehouse, and for some, the most fun part was kicking aside the ladder to prevent somebody’s snivelly little brother from climbing up and being in the exclusive club of older kids. Everybody laughed like hell and felt superior and special…until they realized that now they couldn’t get out of the treehouse themselves. That’s what all these attempts are like: misguided, because they involve making yourself and your friends the “good guys” on the “whitelist” and blacklisting everybody else who is “bad” — because you say so — and killing the overall climate for thriving business.
Even on griefsta tit-posting Second Citizen (if you missed Mulch Ennui’s posting of a pic of his RL scrotum, I guess you haven’t lived Second Life), the gang starts to raise objections when they sense that Joshua, who has had his own heavy skirmishes with the tribe there, is simply making up a list of himself and his chums to leave other people off he hates. Siggy Romulus is the first to squawk that with stuff like that, Prokofy will be screaming FIC before you know it.
All of these ventures fail, even the most highly-qualified and best-intentioned of them (Chili Carson got all that pre-press because she represented a RL big accounting firm in SL, although it never came to anything?) for one simple reason: people don’t understand what the Better Business Bureau is in real life, and what it does, and how that should be adapted to the harsh Wild West conditions of Second Life.
CONSUMER-DRIVEN, NOT BUSINESS-DRIVEN BBB
If you’d like to understand, it’s easy enough to go to bbb.org and read how it works. It’s also helpful to talk to those who have actually filed cases with it, and seen how the steps work and what the system does and doesn’t do.
Unlike all the wannabee Second Life “Better Business Bureaus,” the BBB isn’t made up of a select coterie of top businesses who like to envision themselves as “maintaining order” against a gaggle of lawless copyright thieves, skin-rippers, copybotters and scammers. It’s not the Chamber of Commerce or some sort of Association of Regional Business — or the Sellers’ Guild, protecting its special interests. It’s a *better business* bureau because the way it works to *make business better* is not round up business wagons into a circle to fire at people they don’t like — smaller businesses, businesses they believe to be scammers, or consumers. Instead, the “better business” is ensured by those directly affected by it — consumers.
No, far from being top-down and top-heavy, the BBB rests on the concept of citizens’ actions from below at the grassroots operating to make business better. Business gets better not from businesses deciding to be better; business gets better because consumers compel them to be better. The concept is *consumer-driven* not business driven. That is, the *consumer* — the person who develops a complaint about business, large or small — drives the system. It is he — not another business fancing itself the pillar-of-the-community, who fills out a complaint and attempts to find a hearing, both with the volunteers and paid staff at BBB or similar organizations, and with others who access his assessment, and the public at large. This simple distinction between “consumer-driven” and “business-driven” is lost on all the folks trying to recreate the BBB in SL.
TRACKING A CONSUMER COMPLAINT VS. BUSINESS-IMPOSED STANDARDS
So, for example, once I develop a problem in RL with a shady car repair garage on the West side, I can look up their information with the BBB, and find out that others have also had complaints about their pretend-repair jobs and whopping bills. I can file all my information and work with the BBB to get some justice — it’s a civic method of redress rather than attempting the arduous route of going to small claims court or taking more serious legal action, although the advice you get can also go in that direction. If that West side car shop wants a better reputation, it has to clear up my problem and get the case resolved and show it operates in good faith.
It isn’t that all the car repair shops on the West Side band together among themselves to protect their “good name,” and lock out all the car repair shops on the East side they believe to be “scammers,” and call consumers who complain about them “trolls”. No, that’s not it at all. Instead, it’s an open system that gains transparency precisely because it’s driven from below, not from above, and it rests on the free actors of citizens all over assessing how the car repair shop really functions, and really reporting realistically on it.
Of course, there could be that East Side car shop who might, if real life was filled as much with anonymous bad actors operating in bad faith as Second Life, submit a fake consumer complaint to tar the noble name of the West sider car shop. But that sort of anomaly gets ignored in a system where everyone can freely submit good and bad complaints — there’s a “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” concept going on.
WHITELIST ME AND MY FRIENDS, BLACKLIST MY ENEMIES
Businesses, if they want to be better, develop good practices and pay attention to consumer complaints and also feel the heat of accountability by knowing that a system like the BBB can at any time call them on their shoddy merchandise, dodgy sales tactics, and poor service. But that’s not what the wannabee BBBers in SL want to do — they want to make a Guild, and ban everybody else. The BBB has many elements that help businesses organize and share information and so on — but the heart and soul of the operation is the *consumer complaint process, not the business-driven white-listing process envisioned by SLers*.
Whitelists are what the FIC and business elite have always wanted to make out of every BBB type operation. That’s why the Electric Sheep’s FlipperPA Peregrine weighs in on this thread telling us that the way to go to make a BBB is to use Ban-Link. For him, the heart of the system isn’t accountability of those in power and those who should be responsible to consumers, but keeping in power those who have large land and third-party shopping sites that even if “commission-free” helps burness their reputation and more importantly, provides them with vast amounts of customer and market information for free.
That means not serving the customer, but banning everyone you don’t like, or imagine, without any due process, http://www.typepad.com/t/app/weblog/post?blog_id=274032&id=31759822&saved_changes=1#
Italicto be a scammer. Arbitrarily, for example, he has placed me on Ban-Link because he doesn’t like my *writings* (not because I’ve cage-bombed his sim inworld!). But that’s what he and other Ban-Link proponents imagine is the bright future of Second Life, cleansed of all those “unwanted elements” and “parasites”.
KILLING THE CLIMATE FOR BUSINESS AND STANCHING THE INFUSION OF NEW BLOOD
The problem with such cleansing is you wind up being unable to get down from the treehouse, you become isolated, and eventually you and your high-falutin’ friends wither away and die from lack of connection to everything else — and lack of a feedback loop that can send important market signals.
When you make the bar so high for becoming “approved,” and establish “criteria for membership” (Chili Carlton was going in that direction, acting like a Chamber of Commerce rather than a BBB) new businesses with creative ideas and often an eager following of new customers cannot enter your midst. Ultimately, they start making their own associations and clubs then and leave you out. People are incredibly grim and grisly about sharing business information in Second Life for the greater good; many inworld business types assume that you are as nasty and cut-throat about business as they are, and they’d rather put a horsehead on your bed that cooperate. It’s a phase.
Sellers Guild and the awfully-named Content Vigilantes that Nightshade is hyping are what in fact people pretending to be BBBs really want. They want an exclusive club that can drive out people they think are either poor in talent or suspect as to copying content — with themselves as judge and jury. They want the most aggressive and mean-spirited deterrence they can think of to any too competitors — and they’re willing to call “copiers” even people who simply got the same indea they did independently and executed it better, or who simply went to the same Internet photo stock and auction house sites as they did and copied the same RL stuff from authors they didn’t credit, either.
The viciousness of the Sellers Guild mentality knows no bounds when it comes to claims about yardsalers commiting “theft” because they legally and rightly sold objects put consciously on “copy” and “transfer” by their creators — who wanted to inflict the burden of viral marketing on others.
The SC thread is an instructive lesson in how the harsh tribal ethics of the exclusive and abusive clan functions to obtain conformity. Some of the group may wind up following Nightshade into making yet another self-appointed and suspect “whitelist” that vindictively persecutes people they believe to be in the wrong, or they may very well use the same abusive tactics to club him into submission to prevent *him* from whitelisting to reserve for themselves the right to whitelist. Regardless, none of those speaking in this debate have grasped the higher issues here: better business is created by consumers, not businesses.
Businesses may believe themselves to be altruistic, but their interest is always in the bottom line. Consumers, on the other hand, have their purchasing dollar as their ultimate power and their willingness to engage in a range of response, from private to vocal protest to litigation.
CONSUMER VERSUS BUSINESS INTERESTS IN SL
We don’t need a “Better Business Bureau” in Second Life, which with these individuals, and these particular intentions, will turn into at best another failed experiment in FICdom or at worst a cabal to enforce Ban-Link even more ominously. What we need are consumer-driven organizations that look at what constitutes good practices and what they can positively promote as serving their interests as buyers.
Buyers, at root, cannot care tremendously about skin-copying. That’s a harsh but real truth. Skin-copying, if it leads to cheaper skins for their purchase, are not going to be a source of consternation for them. But good skin makers with loyal followings can get consumers on their side if they show that skin-copiers are inferior, won’t provide updates or modifications or customized options because they are thieves, and don’t supply customer service. Those concerned about copying have to provide the array of service that the consumer won’t get from a thief; sadly, that is the only real recourse in SL under the current conditions.
Buyers also care about the ability to copy because it’s a convenience to them, given how much everything breaks constantly and gets lost in Second Life. That means builders that sell houses in one copy only for fantastic sums because they are worried about people being able to rez out copies endlessly are not a better business from the consumers point of view.
Smart builders know that not only do they have to provide copyable buildings, they even have to frankly incorporate into their product the fact that thousands of small rental agencies all across the grid are going to put out a row of their copyable homes to rent, and will want the scripted devices to function on separate channels. They won’t follow landlords around screaming that they are making unauthorized copies, or sell them a single copy of a $5000 house that breaks the first time the Lindens crash a sim and lose half the build. They realize that renters who see a house they like in a rental become a long-term customer prospect and buy from that house creator; that landlords who have a supplier who takes into account their needs are bulk purchasers, trying every new model. If you are a house-maker today in Second Life still selling single-copy breakable houses, and you aren’t in the very high-end custom niche market where people spend hundreds of RL dollars on their cribs, you are not going to get in the consumers’ better business list. This is the reality of serving the consumer in a free market.
Thus, from these examples you can see what “better business” in SL really fears: empowered consumers who will force them to meet their needs better, just as they do in RL. And that fear drives them to form oppressive guilds and try to lord it over forums and venues to keep in power. It’s the driving force of the core problem of SL, that has an incredibly harsh anti-business climate as its founding ideology, even though paradoxically the Lindens themselves have a profit-making business (or should be) selling land, and even though they welcomed RL big business on to their platform. That harsh climate is embodied by the few at the very peak of the pyramid controlling media, public venues, forums, etc. to ensure that they stay in power. In that sense, it’s no different than any small mid-Western town where the town fathers from the “best families” run things.
What SL needs is bunches and bunches of consumer groups coming into being to fight for all kinds of things — rights of island deed purchasers against scamming island owners; rights of television and radio buyers to be protected from unscrupulous media makers who go offline for long periods, don’t answer IMs, or even quit SL and never serve their customers; rights even of purchasers of sex services not to be ripped off by scamming pimps. Ever sector needs its Ralph Naders.
CRITERIA FOR AN SL BBB
The reality is that every so often, some pompous and pretentious set will nevertheless go about making a BBB, with themselves featured prominently in it. I haven’t found a better set of criteria than the one I developed back in 2005 as an argumentation against Gwyn’s dismissal of consumer-based advocacy when we had this discussion:
o The BBB has to have buy-in from various sectors of players, old, new, random. It has to be free of alts, free of obvious Linden favouritism, and representing different sectors, not just the old buiness sector elites but the new businesses and new players and randomizing factors to keep it from being biased itself. The make-up of the BBB has to be something that has respectability and credibility to all, and doesn’t cause some average players, when acquainted with it, to roll their eyes.
o The BBB cannot be an in-game scripted, information-gathering, third-party site operation that uses the guise of the BBB to continue to gain an advantage in the game by gathering dossiers on other players. That means it cannot be run off third-party sites that collect information *when they themselves do not sign up to follow the TOS as those entities*. Some businesses envision themselves above the fray and free of fault and imagine themselves running this entity to protect themselves from investigation. Your notion that the people forming this cannot themselves ever make a mistake seems laudable, but you’re forgetting that you can blot out their actual past harmful mistakes simply by blessing them with membership in this group, where they get to lord it over others forever. I’m for having a rotating membership of this given the way in which possession of the BBB itself will be gained by the power groupings.
o Picking one player’s lot in the game, one player’s business, or one player’s website — or group of players — will instantly discredit this BBB and only stimulate consumer advocacy movements against it as it will be a bastion of Big Business. Even for “convenience” it cannot be “housed” within one player’s business or “housed” on their website where they use their scripts or website functions to gather information as they perform investigations.
There has to be transparency involved in the investigation process itself and it cannot become a backroom function for “confidentiality” reasons. There’s a lot more that has to be said about due process here.
o Lindens who become involved in it have to be of the “office Linden” type with highly professional backgrounds, and not liaisions who were five minutes ago old players with their biases and networks
o The BBB has to have the power to investigate charges of fraud, and charges of bad business practices, and charges of reputation slander. But it cannot become the last instance. The last instance must be Linden Lab and its TOS and its own procedures.
o The formation of the BBB and its operation cannot be a secretive process but must have transparency and accountability
Siggy
Mar 16th, 2007
“Siggy Romulus is the first to squawk that with stuff like that, Prokofy will be screaming FIC before you know it.”
what can I say – I love being right.
Mulch
Mar 16th, 2007
Thank You Prokofy, for noticing my balls!
if anyone else wants to see them, they can be found at Secondcitizen in the RL 1st life pics…
anyway, aside thanking Prokofy for the love of my sack, I just wanted to say Joshua is very unique in guild situations
check it out right here: http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=9730
this thread revolves around a World of Warcraft guild Joshua was a part of, how he lied and blamed everyone for stupid things, and then quit, blaming part of the guild structure (only to backtrack and admit the REAL reasons for quitting, as quoted and linked in that thread by noted Radio Shrink, Dr Laura!)
So yeah, if this is the type of “team player” you want OVERSEEING a sellers guild, good luck to you… i just thought you should know the facts as to how he acts in a guild
and go look at my testicles
that is all
:mulch:
No One in Particular
Mar 16th, 2007
I am so glad that you have stopped reading and much less posting to the scatalogical… yah you know the rest you said it after all. Stay true to your form!
Prokofy Neva
Mar 16th, 2007
Yes, I’m so glad I’ve stopped reading and posting to the odious and scatalogical Second Life, *except when I am attacked*. Then *one of your own* (gasp! and not Cocoanut! a traitor in your midst! *gasp*) writes me in the dead of night in secret and informs that I’ve been attacked and sends me the link, which I read. I used to sometimes reply there, but I think when there are much broader issues affecting the entire community it’s good to do an oped piece in the Herald.
Mulch
Mar 16th, 2007
hey prok!
you didnt mention my testicles the last post
they are fealing so unloved!!!!
is it that you fear the great orbs of Mulch?
anyway, do you remember that time you tried to monitor my masturbation habits; when you asked me to post when i knocked one out so you could keep some kind of flow chart?
those were good times!
=D
how about a hug (but i hug from behind, you KNOW that i am a big fan of A2M!)
<3
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
Wow, I haven’t even DONE anything yet and you’re squawking as predicted. Awesome!
Nobody ever made a claim in the least that my “list” would be me and my chums; if you think I personally represent an actual business interest in SL, you need to do more fact checking than the Herald expects of you.
And as for Mulch, thanks for bringing up something that has absolutely nothing to do with anything.
You and Prokofy should do lunch sometime.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
Oh and the above having been said, I did point out in that thread that I would welcome and listen to any advice and criticism that would enable this move to help out the broadest interests as possible. If you’re interested in actually, you know, helping for once instead of crying about how nobody can do anything correctly yet never creating anything of your own, I’m all ears.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 16th, 2007
>if you think I personally represent an actual business interest in SL
The interest Joshua Nightshade represents is “his own business”. And “his disreputable tactics for gaining attention* which are amply recorded on Second Citizen, I don’t have to say a thing.
Remember when he decided to go and discredit Anshe on every single forums, Wikipedia entry, etc? And then somehow after going through the wringer with ACS, he emerged as an evangelist for ACS lol.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
Hardly. I’ve never been an evangelist for ACS. You’re mistaking me for your own Urizenus Sklar, who went against Wikipedia policy to assault her page while on her payroll. I only ever had one issue with Anshe; her brazen misuse of the DMCA. She and I had a talk about it where she explained her reasons for the move and I explained why I disapproved and we both came out of it better off. Shortly after that she completely dropped the issue.
Mulch
Mar 16th, 2007
Hey Josh!
Glad you could join us
hey, remember that time you photoshopped a picture of my balls and had the giant prokofy heads you rezzed and scripted to lick each others tongues that were flexi prims and then had them lick my balls?
that was funny, i thought so at the time for sure!
i would do lunch with Prokofy (possibly) if she answers one simple question
Prokofy? Do you do A2M?
And Josh, you want to *LEAD* a guild and have people vetted by yourself and yourself alone
i think the facts and reality behind your, erm, dramatic departure from the WoW guild and how you chose to lie and spin things blaming others and guild rules for your lack of interest that you yourself revealed in further posts to be actually other reasons is very valid in whther you could a lead even a flea circus, let alone supervising content creators in SL
so you leave people behind asking themselves “did he lie originally” or “is he lying to cover up for something?”
either way man, it just seems that your desire to dominate a guild who you assure everyone that you will keep in order is… well, troubling from a few perspectives
but anyway josh, i got more important things to discuss here
like my testicles
carry on people and go take on a day or something!
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
Mulchie, don’t you have a “medicinal marijuana” break to head out for? I wouldn’t want your ADD to act up while you’re near a keyboard.
Siggy
Mar 16th, 2007
So… we have 2 possibilities here.
1. Prok didn’t read the thread.
2. Prok does in fact read SC.
Either way… it don’t bode well for the cuntmeister of spin!
Io Zeno
Mar 16th, 2007
*dancing banana*
Prok, do you really want to invite SC to invade the Herald?
Oh, right, I forgot, it doesn’t matter has long as they get a lot of responses.
Well, I did my part, have a super day!
Mulch
Mar 16th, 2007
Actually 2 of my 3 dispenceries are open again, so yes, i am medicated at the moment and very happy
so how long were you staring at my balls when you photoshopped them in the “prokofy licking mulches balls” picture that you posted?
is THAT when you fell in love with me and realized that you would NEVER have me, so now you just wank to a post from a noted radio shrink?
Please do tell, and include graphic descriptions of my clackers while you are at it
and before you start dissing people who smoke pot and/or have ADD, you should consider who could be reading this
your political career might depend on it
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
Oh and as for my idea being my business and my friends, well, obviously Prokofy you didn’t read anything at all:
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=192374&postcount=115
“Democracies have laws and constitutions in place. Ours would be explicit in this. The only criteria for rejection would be proven stores that have ripped people off. I would ensure that.”
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=192280&postcount=59
“Obviously the administration would have to be handled by people not directly involved. I would prefer it to be residents who either don’t have a huge business interest in SL or a very hobbyist one. I would prefer the administration to be voted in and voted on. I wouldn’t allow it to become a closed system of favorites and their friends.”
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=192303&postcount=72
“Obviously the system wouldn’t be perfect. In my idea the administration wouldn’t be responsible for voting in and of itself. The entire guild body would. It’s in the interests of a successful system that it encapsulates as much of the business population as possible. Consumers aren’t going to waste their time with a system where they’re told “Support content creators by shopping at stores on this list!” and the list has all of three shops on it. The guild would vote as a whole on who comes in and comes out. As the list gets larger and larger the capacity for interference becomes harder and harder. Are they going to bribe eight people? Sure. Are they going to bribe a hundred? That’s a harder goal to achieve.
More people in the guild also helps catch people who’re ripping the guild off. If only 5 people are on the look-out that’s a lot harder than a hundred.”
That’s just a couple for you. C’mon Prok, do a little research next time.
Ian Betteridge
Mar 16th, 2007
Yes Prokofy, woe betide anyway should ever show weakness by changing their minds after talking to someone, eh?
Of course, if Josh acted like you, he’d simply go back and erase the offending posts and claim he never held that opinion at all, and that anyone who said he did was a liar. Or you’d simply claim that your original argument was misinterpreted by the cabal of tekkiewiki literalists who are stalking you IRL and that OBVIOUSLY when you said that something was black you meant it was white.
Mulch
Mar 16th, 2007
Josh, while helping to educate Prokofy as to the real motives as told by that same thread, you forgot a couple quotes
Joshua Nightshade said: “I would not allow this system to be used for that purpose.”
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=192377&postcount=118
and who could forget THIS gem?
Joshua Nightshade said: “At first I decide. There’s unfortunately no way to get around that”
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=192525&postcount=212
glad i could help!
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
Oh thanks Mulch, I thought I had missed a few. But it looks like your ctrl+p keys are stuck cos you forgot the rest of the quote.
“At first I decide. There’s unfortunately no way to get around that as I’m spearheading this. But once I think the group is at a “safe” level I would hold elections to replace everyone. Yes, votes can be bought, but as I pointed out already the more people in the group the less of an impact this can have. And we’re talking about pennies here, people are easy but not that easy.
I know there are ways to game it. There also have to be proactive people interested in combating that. LL isn’t interested in combating landbots much less theft. It’s up to us. I’m trying to come up with something that’s better than just writing a post on a forum.”
Mulch
Mar 16th, 2007
Josh, You are right, how could i neglect to include one of your best quotes?
Joshua Nightshade says: “But once *I think* the group is at a “safe” level *I would* hold elections”
Golly does that inspire more confidence!
Thanks, sorry I missed it my 1st time through… any other thing you wanna help with, champ?
I mean, after all, you are in it for everyone else , right, cuz you only have a dozen items, right?
nothing in this for you but noble charity, right?
:mulch:
siggy
Mar 16th, 2007
Fuck me – I’m Irish!
Happy St Paddy’s motherfuckers!
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
You too Siggy.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 16th, 2007
Y’all missed the worst part, where hopefully they can convince everyone else in SL not to buy anything from anyone who’s not in the group.
coco
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
How’s that the worst part Coco? If the group is arranged the way Prokofy claims (IE a list of friends who love each other) then yes I can imagine that would be bad. But it isn’t. It would include everyone except those who are proven to have stolen content from other builders. And the burden of proof is on the group members who want to vote them out. It wouldn’t be a popularity contest nor would it be Sally Homebuilder saying no other content creators who specialize in structures can come in. It exists completely outside of content and is based entirely on anti-social behavior. It’s not the way Prokofy claims it is, as she would’ve known if she’d actually bothered reading the thread rather than making up her own opinion of how she would run it.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 16th, 2007
Because not everyone wants to belong to such a group! But that doesn’t mean they are scammmers or thieves, or that others should be encouraged not to buy from them.
coco
Prokofy Neva
Mar 16th, 2007
I’m glad to see that I don’t have to post a thing here, as Uri always says, the comments will bring it all out and take care of that.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
I would never attempt to blacklist anyone who just doesn’t want to join. I completely understand that it’s not for everyone and a lot of people would need to see it working for a long space of time before they would be comfortable signing on. The blacklist of content creators who have ripped people off would be wholly separate from the guild itself. However, I would be curious to know your reasons for not wanting to be a part of it.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
“I’m glad to see that I don’t have to post a thing here, as Uri always says, the comments will bring it all out and take care of that.”
Quite so, and I for one am glad I had the opportunity to correct your blatant misrepresentation and lying as to my motives and intentions. Thanks Prokofy!
Nacon
Mar 16th, 2007
Ahh good ol` Joshua, banking up on forum again but better with taste of tine bitersweet of irony and witty. Unlike Prok’s long boorish never ending flood of paragraphs of her theories, confusing her way out of it.
…well shit, I forgot what this topic is all abou… OH! blacklisting, that’s because Linden Labs can’t do the job for ya. So people need to make their own justice… same thing with people like me barking up on prok and tenshi for not watching their own mouth before acusing people like a fucktard.
Keep up the good work, Joshua.
Chili Carson
Mar 16th, 2007
Hey, Prok, a few corrections:
My avi’s name is Chili Carson, not Chili Charlton.
I did not attempt to “found” anything. I came forward last year to see who would be interested in helping to create a Chamber of Commerce.
A Chamber of Commerce and a Better Business Bureau are two entirely different things.
The chamber idea did not take off because not enough people were willing to pitch in and one person cannot make something like that go.
Maria LaVeaux
Mar 16th, 2007
Prok,
It’s been like the previous preemptive attempts at setting up SL Police Forces, the Kids in the treehouse think all you need is a Cool Name, they never Bother to study WHY it hasn’t worked Before. They never look at what methods the prior Failed groups used, and discard the ones that didn’t work while adopting new ones that May. No, All they need is a Cool Name, a Cool Clubhouse, and enough Members to Force thier standards on OthersUntil thiey either Implode under the weight of thier own Egos, or find themselves Isolated because thier Good Intentioned behaviour has been “Mistaken” for Grifing.
They forget these organizations IRL (Police, BBB, Chamber of commerce) are set up to Protect Peoples Rights, NOT Step on them to fulfill a Personal agenda.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the New kids on the Block, they May become an Irritant for a Few weeks, but then they will be Gone, and peace will reign once again.
Angel.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
Maria,
I can understand the reticence based on previous failed attempts, but I actually have gone around talking to and taking advise from many people who’ve created similar attempts. I’m very, very interested in learning from past mistakes.
And anything I would do would have people’s rights fully in sight. I have no personal agenda in this beyond wanting to help to restore SL into a place where people can be creative and brilliant for creativity and brilliancy’s sake, not fear of making anything because someone will steal it or ruin it.
But either way, I’m willing to sit and listen to any comments, advice or hate rants anybody has about the concept if you’re interested. It’s not about pushing through my proposal, it’s a collaborative effort with the entire grid.
Crissa
Mar 16th, 2007
But the BBB is held together from the top-down.
How does a bottom-up BBB get created without the white-hats to fund it? Why will shops care about an organization that someone can complain to while they can deal with each customer seperately, and let them go on their way?
And what complaints should a BBB hold, if not discerning white and blackmarket goods?
Prokofy Neva
Mar 16th, 2007
>Hey, Prok, a few corrections:
>My avi’s name is Chili Carson, not Chili Charlton.
Chili, I’m so sorry about your name mistake — I’ll fix that up right away!
>I did not attempt to “found” anything. I came forward last year to see who would be interested in helping to create a Chamber of Commerce.
You started the group, and are founder of a group.
And you have GOT TO BE KIDDING if you are ducking and hiding now about saying you didn’t form a Better Business Bureau. That was what CNET and Hamlet called it; that’s *exactly* how it was portrayed! I didn’t hear you waving away that characterization then.
>A Chamber of Commerce and a Better Business Bureau are two entirely different things.
I’ll say — and that’s why I came to your first meeting and argued strenuously against the way you were pitching it as a BBB — and even the CoC concept was once that was top heavy and overly
>The chamber idea did not take off because not enough people were willing to pitch in and one person cannot make something like that go.
Right. Now…why do you think that is?! It’s because there isn’t buy-in, ownership, a sense of belonging, for a large enough group of people!
Prokofy Neva
Mar 16th, 2007
Sorry, that line should read:
“And you have GOT TO BE KIDDING if you are ducking and hiding now about saying you didn’t form a Chamber of Commerce *that implied* a Better Business Bureau. That was what CNET and Hamlet called it.”
CNET didn’t use the term “BBB” but here’s what it said:
The idea, she explained, is to provide a “dialogue” for businesses, as well as a member directory. Then, she added, customers could know they were doing business with certified companies, and businesses could learn some best practices to follow as they try to grow
The typical SL concept of a “BBB” (which is in fact more like a CoC, that’s my point in this and past articles) is a whitelisting or “certification” system. You once again put this meme out to the community — that the way to achieve “better business” it to have some body of vaunted powers “certify” others and give them “the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval”. To which many of us will say: HELL NO.
In Hamlet’s article, he also called it CoC, but then said:
“Fresh from her lauded appearance at SLCC, Chili Carson is convening a meeting tonight to generate support for a Second Life-based Chamber of Commerce that would serve the thousands of in-world businesses in operation– and by extension, the customers who depend on them. Considering all the controversy and acrimony in-world commerce often provokes (accusations of texture and design theft, scams, and so on), you have to think some kind of self-governed business organization is amply needed.”
Once again — the idea of a group of people who “self-organize” and then decide without any due process or rule of law to decide “who the design thievs and scammers are” is the very problem I’m talking about. People call it a BBB; they call it a CoC; the fact of the matter is, it is a thuggish medieval guild that hobbles a modern liberal free market and should have no place in Second Life.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
I think people who create no content themselves, or to be quite honest create nothing but misery, hatred and strife, should perhaps stay out of discussions involving those who’re actually trying to make SL better instead of bitching and moaning to whomever won’t listen.
That’s just me.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 16th, 2007
>I think people who create no content themselves, or to be quite honest create nothing but misery, hatred and strife, should perhaps stay out of discussions involving those who’re actually trying to make SL better instead of bitching and moaning to whomever won’t listen
Joshua Nightshade is a typical content fascist.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 16th, 2007
Right.
No, I’m immensely tired of your “tear down all of it” bullshit. What do you do to better SL Prokofy? What do you do to improve anything at all? Nothing. You’re a walking cloud of festering hatred and puss. All you touch runs away to shower. You create nothing, you only complain.
The best way to know you’re doing something right is when Prokofy cries foul.
SL Newbie
Mar 17th, 2007
OK, I am new to SL and am learning things as I go. I have looked at the structure of SL business and I can say that it has the heart and soul of free enterprise. I do not believe a group founded to only buy from within that group is keeping with that. It is creating a closed group that you either join or be left out with the ones you say you are trying to stop. This makes no sense.
Second Life is huge. It encompasses much of the world now. To start an organization of this type is exclusive and arrogant in light of a whole new world of people who do not do business like in the U.S. Many Countries do not have the committees you seek to establish and frankly many of the residents would not put trust in the character of Joshua Nightshade just from what was exposed of him in that thread on that forum.
I do not see anyone thinking of Second Life’s best interest with a plan such as this. I only see someone attempting to control an otherwise free market with an exclusive network of sellers. This is not right in the scope of the global view.
The first person in that thread spoke of a problem and people reacted how they saw fit. This is the word of mouth that can generate or kill sells for a business depending on what is reported. If you do not believe in the power of word of mouth then you simply have not experienced life in the business world at an effective level.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
As the world gets larger and larger, word of mouth unfortunately doesn’t encompass the full scope of antisocial people who steal from others. This isn’t an attempt to create a list of exclusive sellers. It’s an attempt to get all of the good (and by good I’m speaking in moral terms, not subjective content ones) guys and keep out the bad guys.
SL Newbie
Mar 17th, 2007
And how would you do this with “good guys” from Japan, Italy, Mexico and places that did not exist in Second Life when who you are thinking of as “good guys” were established? This is where the idea falls apart. As you say the world is getting larger and larger and the effectiveness of a group such as this cannot possibly make an impact save with the circle of “good guys” implemented.
I think you are viewing Second Life as a small thing as it was before. Your network cannot travel any faster then word of mouth, it just grows up your circle of people and makes a buyer’s club.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
What does the country have to do with anything? They’re still signing in to the same SL aren’t they?
SL Newbie
Mar 17th, 2007
It has everything to do with it. You are suggesting a seller guild that only buys from within and becomes the SL standard for doing business. How will the people of these Countries be able to do this without speaking your language, knowing your people as trustworthy to alliance with even trusting in a system that is all inclusive with Americans they do not know or likely trust? That turns the free market into a closed group. I do not see this working on a SL wide scale. The economy in SL is free now as it should remain for the world to benefit.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 17th, 2007
Second Life is huge. It encompasses much of the world now. To start an organization of this type is exclusive and arrogant in light of a whole new world of people who do not do business like in the U.S. Many Countries do not have the committees you seek to establish and frankly many of the residents would not put trust in the character of Joshua Nightshade just from what was exposed of him in that thread on that forum.
Please don’t make an assumption based on this asstard’s exclusivist — and naive — concept that this is “American”. America doesn’t work this way. If anything, the concept of closed shops, closed guilds setting standards or prices or lists of people they find acceptable is more like Russia or like Korea — the chaibols, the companies loyal to the state who get special favours and curry favours as a result etc.
The tribalist behaviour you see on SC isn’t “American” or “Australian” or “Korean” or “French” although people from all those countries participate in it. It’s human nature at its worst. It’s Lord of the Flies.
The 9th Circuit
Mar 17th, 2007
Oh for crissakes atleat Joshua Nightingale is doing something about this theft issue that is so pervasive and uregulated in SL at the moment. Instead of criticising others about what they are doing and how they are doing it, why don’t you try doing better?
Here we have someone trying to do something positive for the content creators of SL, and all you can muster is criticism?
Personally, I don’t care who does it, or how they do it. At this point anything that is done to somehow instill some type of fear of retribution or repercussion to the non-creative scum who resort to stealing and benefiting from others creations is long overdue.
Why not let him take a stab at it? Unless, of course, you are planning of doing it better.
SL Newbie
Mar 17th, 2007
Joshua said he was open to questions and opposite views about this idea. He has his audience for this here 9th circuit.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Newbie: I agree with Prokofy that this has little to do with America as well. Many, many people from all over the world participate in SL and efforts would be made to include them in. That means translations and the same kind of support that English speakers have.
As I pointed out in the original thread, there’s no way this can solve the problem 100% and I don’t expect it to. But I would hope that it can be used to elicit some sort of positive change. Right now people are afraid to donate anything for free to the newbie areas because someone will come by and steal it to resell. That immediately and negatively impacts everyone in SL, both English speakers and otherwise. This is a problem that -everyone- has to face. People get abusive when asked for help on how to build things because they think the person is just waiting to rip them off. There’s an atmosphere of animosity and mistrust that wasn’t around before and that’s because of abuses of the system.
The economy now is already closed. If you think otherwise you’re very naive and refusing to see the larger picture. My hope is that this system can be used to generate trust and competition at the same time. In SL the greatest thing anyone has is their reputation. That is the ultimate currency. This system would harness that and as I said before the only criteria for someone not being allowed in would be being caught ripping others off. Otherwise everyone else is in, be they the largest content creators or the smallest store that only sells a few items a month. It’s not about favoritism. It’s about trust. And at the end of the day I ultimately have little to do with this beyond starting the project. I don’t intend nor want to be Emperor.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 17th, 2007
Well, I might have misunderstood you, then, Joshua. I thought you had said that it would be hard to get everyone not to buy from anyone except those in the group.
coco
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Well I mean it would be. I wouldn’t expect at all for everyone to jump on this all at once. A lot of people would be mistrustful of the concept and not want to be a part of it.
But my attempt isn’t to tell people “This is a cool list of people who you should buy from.” It’s an attempt to educate users, new ones especially, that “Here is a list of people who have vowed to not rip you off by selling you things that they didn’t make themselves and you can get for much cheaper or free elsewhere. This is a list of people who have vowed to help you instead of take advantage of you.”
Overtime as it hopefully becomes more successful I think the aversion would be less and less as it’s demonstrated that there’s a greater amount of trust in the economy because those who exist only to abuse and rip off other people are relegated to a smaller and smaller consumer base.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 17th, 2007
P.S. People do not have to be afraid their donations of freebies will be sold.
All they have to do is check the “no transfer” box.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 17th, 2007
>All they have to do is check the “no transfer” box.
Bingo. When they stop being infantile hysterics and learn to do that, then perhaps they will be grown-up enough to take part in the modern free economy : )