Bad Business
by prokofy on 16/03/07 at 5:18 pm
Kids playing “Better Business Bureau” always picture themselves as the chair of the board.
Prokofy Neva, Consumer Watch
Goddamn, here we go again. Yet another stupid, misinformed attempt to create a “Better Business Bureau”. And yet another “ratings” system that styles itself as a “Better Business Bureau” even though, unlike a better system, slrealreps.com, it has no place to write commentary. Can you count like 20 of these in the last two years? (And those are only the ones we hear about). Remember all the “whitelist” debates on the old forums? Gwyn’s pontification? Remember Chili Carson’s big splash with this at SLCC and all the press attention she got? (None of those reporters came back a few months later to discover, as we did, that no BBB ever got made due to pressing RL commitments of the founder).
Like many more competent before him, notorious Second Citizen bad-boy Joshua Nightshade has cooked up the latest BBB “concept” in response to the usual skin-theft hysteria which differs little from all those before him, and works something like this: “No business but my business and my friends’ business.”
Remember when we were kids? We would all climb up in the treehouse, and for some, the most fun part was kicking aside the ladder to prevent somebody’s snivelly little brother from climbing up and being in the exclusive club of older kids. Everybody laughed like hell and felt superior and special…until they realized that now they couldn’t get out of the treehouse themselves. That’s what all these attempts are like: misguided, because they involve making yourself and your friends the “good guys” on the “whitelist” and blacklisting everybody else who is “bad” — because you say so — and killing the overall climate for thriving business.
Even on griefsta tit-posting Second Citizen (if you missed Mulch Ennui’s posting of a pic of his RL scrotum, I guess you haven’t lived Second Life), the gang starts to raise objections when they sense that Joshua, who has had his own heavy skirmishes with the tribe there, is simply making up a list of himself and his chums to leave other people off he hates. Siggy Romulus is the first to squawk that with stuff like that, Prokofy will be screaming FIC before you know it.
All of these ventures fail, even the most highly-qualified and best-intentioned of them (Chili Carson got all that pre-press because she represented a RL big accounting firm in SL, although it never came to anything?) for one simple reason: people don’t understand what the Better Business Bureau is in real life, and what it does, and how that should be adapted to the harsh Wild West conditions of Second Life.
CONSUMER-DRIVEN, NOT BUSINESS-DRIVEN BBB
If you’d like to understand, it’s easy enough to go to bbb.org and read how it works. It’s also helpful to talk to those who have actually filed cases with it, and seen how the steps work and what the system does and doesn’t do.
Unlike all the wannabee Second Life “Better Business Bureaus,” the BBB isn’t made up of a select coterie of top businesses who like to envision themselves as “maintaining order” against a gaggle of lawless copyright thieves, skin-rippers, copybotters and scammers. It’s not the Chamber of Commerce or some sort of Association of Regional Business — or the Sellers’ Guild, protecting its special interests. It’s a *better business* bureau because the way it works to *make business better* is not round up business wagons into a circle to fire at people they don’t like — smaller businesses, businesses they believe to be scammers, or consumers. Instead, the “better business” is ensured by those directly affected by it — consumers.
No, far from being top-down and top-heavy, the BBB rests on the concept of citizens’ actions from below at the grassroots operating to make business better. Business gets better not from businesses deciding to be better; business gets better because consumers compel them to be better. The concept is *consumer-driven* not business driven. That is, the *consumer* — the person who develops a complaint about business, large or small — drives the system. It is he — not another business fancing itself the pillar-of-the-community, who fills out a complaint and attempts to find a hearing, both with the volunteers and paid staff at BBB or similar organizations, and with others who access his assessment, and the public at large. This simple distinction between “consumer-driven” and “business-driven” is lost on all the folks trying to recreate the BBB in SL.
TRACKING A CONSUMER COMPLAINT VS. BUSINESS-IMPOSED STANDARDS
So, for example, once I develop a problem in RL with a shady car repair garage on the West side, I can look up their information with the BBB, and find out that others have also had complaints about their pretend-repair jobs and whopping bills. I can file all my information and work with the BBB to get some justice — it’s a civic method of redress rather than attempting the arduous route of going to small claims court or taking more serious legal action, although the advice you get can also go in that direction. If that West side car shop wants a better reputation, it has to clear up my problem and get the case resolved and show it operates in good faith.
It isn’t that all the car repair shops on the West Side band together among themselves to protect their “good name,” and lock out all the car repair shops on the East side they believe to be “scammers,” and call consumers who complain about them “trolls”. No, that’s not it at all. Instead, it’s an open system that gains transparency precisely because it’s driven from below, not from above, and it rests on the free actors of citizens all over assessing how the car repair shop really functions, and really reporting realistically on it.
Of course, there could be that East Side car shop who might, if real life was filled as much with anonymous bad actors operating in bad faith as Second Life, submit a fake consumer complaint to tar the noble name of the West sider car shop. But that sort of anomaly gets ignored in a system where everyone can freely submit good and bad complaints — there’s a “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” concept going on.
WHITELIST ME AND MY FRIENDS, BLACKLIST MY ENEMIES
Businesses, if they want to be better, develop good practices and pay attention to consumer complaints and also feel the heat of accountability by knowing that a system like the BBB can at any time call them on their shoddy merchandise, dodgy sales tactics, and poor service. But that’s not what the wannabee BBBers in SL want to do — they want to make a Guild, and ban everybody else. The BBB has many elements that help businesses organize and share information and so on — but the heart and soul of the operation is the *consumer complaint process, not the business-driven white-listing process envisioned by SLers*.
Whitelists are what the FIC and business elite have always wanted to make out of every BBB type operation. That’s why the Electric Sheep’s FlipperPA Peregrine weighs in on this thread telling us that the way to go to make a BBB is to use Ban-Link. For him, the heart of the system isn’t accountability of those in power and those who should be responsible to consumers, but keeping in power those who have large land and third-party shopping sites that even if “commission-free” helps burness their reputation and more importantly, provides them with vast amounts of customer and market information for free.
That means not serving the customer, but banning everyone you don’t like, or imagine, without any due process, http://www.typepad.com/t/app/weblog/post?blog_id=274032&id=31759822&saved_changes=1#
Italicto be a scammer. Arbitrarily, for example, he has placed me on Ban-Link because he doesn’t like my *writings* (not because I’ve cage-bombed his sim inworld!). But that’s what he and other Ban-Link proponents imagine is the bright future of Second Life, cleansed of all those “unwanted elements” and “parasites”.
KILLING THE CLIMATE FOR BUSINESS AND STANCHING THE INFUSION OF NEW BLOOD
The problem with such cleansing is you wind up being unable to get down from the treehouse, you become isolated, and eventually you and your high-falutin’ friends wither away and die from lack of connection to everything else — and lack of a feedback loop that can send important market signals.
When you make the bar so high for becoming “approved,” and establish “criteria for membership” (Chili Carlton was going in that direction, acting like a Chamber of Commerce rather than a BBB) new businesses with creative ideas and often an eager following of new customers cannot enter your midst. Ultimately, they start making their own associations and clubs then and leave you out. People are incredibly grim and grisly about sharing business information in Second Life for the greater good; many inworld business types assume that you are as nasty and cut-throat about business as they are, and they’d rather put a horsehead on your bed that cooperate. It’s a phase.
Sellers Guild and the awfully-named Content Vigilantes that Nightshade is hyping are what in fact people pretending to be BBBs really want. They want an exclusive club that can drive out people they think are either poor in talent or suspect as to copying content — with themselves as judge and jury. They want the most aggressive and mean-spirited deterrence they can think of to any too competitors — and they’re willing to call “copiers” even people who simply got the same indea they did independently and executed it better, or who simply went to the same Internet photo stock and auction house sites as they did and copied the same RL stuff from authors they didn’t credit, either.
The viciousness of the Sellers Guild mentality knows no bounds when it comes to claims about yardsalers commiting “theft” because they legally and rightly sold objects put consciously on “copy” and “transfer” by their creators — who wanted to inflict the burden of viral marketing on others.
The SC thread is an instructive lesson in how the harsh tribal ethics of the exclusive and abusive clan functions to obtain conformity. Some of the group may wind up following Nightshade into making yet another self-appointed and suspect “whitelist” that vindictively persecutes people they believe to be in the wrong, or they may very well use the same abusive tactics to club him into submission to prevent *him* from whitelisting to reserve for themselves the right to whitelist. Regardless, none of those speaking in this debate have grasped the higher issues here: better business is created by consumers, not businesses.
Businesses may believe themselves to be altruistic, but their interest is always in the bottom line. Consumers, on the other hand, have their purchasing dollar as their ultimate power and their willingness to engage in a range of response, from private to vocal protest to litigation.
CONSUMER VERSUS BUSINESS INTERESTS IN SL
We don’t need a “Better Business Bureau” in Second Life, which with these individuals, and these particular intentions, will turn into at best another failed experiment in FICdom or at worst a cabal to enforce Ban-Link even more ominously. What we need are consumer-driven organizations that look at what constitutes good practices and what they can positively promote as serving their interests as buyers.
Buyers, at root, cannot care tremendously about skin-copying. That’s a harsh but real truth. Skin-copying, if it leads to cheaper skins for their purchase, are not going to be a source of consternation for them. But good skin makers with loyal followings can get consumers on their side if they show that skin-copiers are inferior, won’t provide updates or modifications or customized options because they are thieves, and don’t supply customer service. Those concerned about copying have to provide the array of service that the consumer won’t get from a thief; sadly, that is the only real recourse in SL under the current conditions.
Buyers also care about the ability to copy because it’s a convenience to them, given how much everything breaks constantly and gets lost in Second Life. That means builders that sell houses in one copy only for fantastic sums because they are worried about people being able to rez out copies endlessly are not a better business from the consumers point of view.
Smart builders know that not only do they have to provide copyable buildings, they even have to frankly incorporate into their product the fact that thousands of small rental agencies all across the grid are going to put out a row of their copyable homes to rent, and will want the scripted devices to function on separate channels. They won’t follow landlords around screaming that they are making unauthorized copies, or sell them a single copy of a $5000 house that breaks the first time the Lindens crash a sim and lose half the build. They realize that renters who see a house they like in a rental become a long-term customer prospect and buy from that house creator; that landlords who have a supplier who takes into account their needs are bulk purchasers, trying every new model. If you are a house-maker today in Second Life still selling single-copy breakable houses, and you aren’t in the very high-end custom niche market where people spend hundreds of RL dollars on their cribs, you are not going to get in the consumers’ better business list. This is the reality of serving the consumer in a free market.
Thus, from these examples you can see what “better business” in SL really fears: empowered consumers who will force them to meet their needs better, just as they do in RL. And that fear drives them to form oppressive guilds and try to lord it over forums and venues to keep in power. It’s the driving force of the core problem of SL, that has an incredibly harsh anti-business climate as its founding ideology, even though paradoxically the Lindens themselves have a profit-making business (or should be) selling land, and even though they welcomed RL big business on to their platform. That harsh climate is embodied by the few at the very peak of the pyramid controlling media, public venues, forums, etc. to ensure that they stay in power. In that sense, it’s no different than any small mid-Western town where the town fathers from the “best families” run things.
What SL needs is bunches and bunches of consumer groups coming into being to fight for all kinds of things — rights of island deed purchasers against scamming island owners; rights of television and radio buyers to be protected from unscrupulous media makers who go offline for long periods, don’t answer IMs, or even quit SL and never serve their customers; rights even of purchasers of sex services not to be ripped off by scamming pimps. Ever sector needs its Ralph Naders.
CRITERIA FOR AN SL BBB
The reality is that every so often, some pompous and pretentious set will nevertheless go about making a BBB, with themselves featured prominently in it. I haven’t found a better set of criteria than the one I developed back in 2005 as an argumentation against Gwyn’s dismissal of consumer-based advocacy when we had this discussion:
o The BBB has to have buy-in from various sectors of players, old, new, random. It has to be free of alts, free of obvious Linden favouritism, and representing different sectors, not just the old buiness sector elites but the new businesses and new players and randomizing factors to keep it from being biased itself. The make-up of the BBB has to be something that has respectability and credibility to all, and doesn’t cause some average players, when acquainted with it, to roll their eyes.
o The BBB cannot be an in-game scripted, information-gathering, third-party site operation that uses the guise of the BBB to continue to gain an advantage in the game by gathering dossiers on other players. That means it cannot be run off third-party sites that collect information *when they themselves do not sign up to follow the TOS as those entities*. Some businesses envision themselves above the fray and free of fault and imagine themselves running this entity to protect themselves from investigation. Your notion that the people forming this cannot themselves ever make a mistake seems laudable, but you’re forgetting that you can blot out their actual past harmful mistakes simply by blessing them with membership in this group, where they get to lord it over others forever. I’m for having a rotating membership of this given the way in which possession of the BBB itself will be gained by the power groupings.
o Picking one player’s lot in the game, one player’s business, or one player’s website — or group of players — will instantly discredit this BBB and only stimulate consumer advocacy movements against it as it will be a bastion of Big Business. Even for “convenience” it cannot be “housed” within one player’s business or “housed” on their website where they use their scripts or website functions to gather information as they perform investigations.
There has to be transparency involved in the investigation process itself and it cannot become a backroom function for “confidentiality” reasons. There’s a lot more that has to be said about due process here.
o Lindens who become involved in it have to be of the “office Linden” type with highly professional backgrounds, and not liaisions who were five minutes ago old players with their biases and networks
o The BBB has to have the power to investigate charges of fraud, and charges of bad business practices, and charges of reputation slander. But it cannot become the last instance. The last instance must be Linden Lab and its TOS and its own procedures.
o The formation of the BBB and its operation cannot be a secretive process but must have transparency and accountability
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Oh Coco.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
“Bingo. When they stop being infantile hysterics and learn to do that, then perhaps they will be grown-up enough to take part in the modern free economy : )”
Again Prokofy, what do you make?
SL Newbie
Mar 17th, 2007
I see what you are saying Joshua. I just do not see the big picture doing what you think.
Joshua said this: The economy now is already closed. If you think otherwise you’re very naive and refusing to see the larger picture.
I think for some reason this is incorrect. I think it is closed to an extent because there were many in this world before that only buy from each other. I see the big picture in that there are more from outside this group in second life now then there used to be and more coming. You see a closed economy, I see a huge world of market that do not know your closed group or care who was here before. This is why I say arrogance. This is the way of growth, the old is pruned for the new to grow. To believe that what you see as a closed economy still exists today is very naive to me and not seeing the big picture.
I am sorry as I ramble at times but I believe in a second life that is bigger then you are imagining. Good luck, maybe I see you on my future land someday ha ha.
SL Newbie
Mar 17th, 2007
Joshua said this: Again Prokofy, what do you make?
Why does this matter? Second Life is a big place, you do not have to make things to live there do you? Prokofy writes to this website, that is contribution I think. I am aware of this movement because of it. That contributes and matters to me.
Maybe I stick my nose in where it does not belong? Excuse me please if so.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Newbie: I ask because Prokofy exists only to complain, ridicule, harass and destroy. She makes nothing positive herself, she contributes nothing to SL except furthering her on animosity and personal agenda. She’s destructive and a negative influence to SL and the greater circles who are unfortunate enough to have to share habitation with her.
SL Newbie
Mar 17th, 2007
Oh. I guess I need to shhh now then. It sounds like problems from before with you two.
Bye now.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Thank you for your input. I do appreciate it and I will take your suggestions to heart.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 17th, 2007
Prokofy writes to this website, that is contribution I think. I am aware of this movement because of it. That contributes and matters to me.
SL Newbie, keep up the good work, you’re asking all the right questions, and making all the right estimations. SL is bigger. And as Cocoanut used to say on those hot-house, fetid forums: “Just wait til the world grows.” The higher stratospheric elements of the economy may be closed because Lindens, their friends, their media contacts, their big business contacts keep that a very closely-held country club. But even that world is reguarly crashed by newcomers who outstrip their little beta darlings.
The economy is fact anything but closed when looked at as a larger picture because anyone can come in and do anything and they face the same difficulties of market share, advertising, etc. but they have the same advantages of phenomenal growth. It’s very much a pioneering atmosphere and it’s these old clucking biddies from the forums who continue to think of it as a roost they rule, even thought they don’t realize that all their beautiful wickedness is melting, melting under the heat of a million new people.
What do I make? I make lots of stuff. I actually even design and commission content and builds and event make little things myself to sell. But that’s not the main thing I do; the main thing I do is take other people’s content — which is how a normal mature economy works in more granulated and sophisticated ways — and make residential and commercial spaces for people in one of the largest rental companies. I work hard on this from morning til night, along with my regular RL jobs and family. I do it mainly for the interest level as it is not possible to make much money merely in mainland rentals, the math isn’t there. Joshua and all those SC nasties know exactly what I do and how many customers I have because they’ve deliberately ,methodically, stalked me and harassed my tenants, innocent people who don’t even know who they are, merely as a terrorist method of getting at me, because they don’t like my criticism of them — criticism that is extremely valid and necessary because they are a menace to society.
One of the ways that this little clique of grade-school girls has always tried to lord it over others is by saying, “We’re the kewl kids, we make content like avatars or weapons or water slides or underwear, and you don’t have any PSP talents so you are shit.” The sad truth is that these people are all wannabees in RL, who don’t shine there and have only SL to shine in. They also aren’t necessarily skilled and educated in the fields that they emulate in SL like architecture or dress design. So it’s kind of pathetic, and that’s why they’re terribly insecure.
I don’t see why their insecurities and need to sell only to their own kind in a fierce tribal system needs to be a damper on the economy. More and more people just walk around them.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 17th, 2007
>Newbie: I ask because Prokofy exists only to complain, ridicule, harass and destroy. She makes nothing positive herself, she contributes nothing to SL except furthering her on animosity and personal agenda. She’s destructive and a negative influence to SL and the greater circles who are unfortunate enough to have to share habitation with her.
Let me summarize the issue so we get the picture straight here.
I role I feel is important in SL, criticizing the people who try to take it over and who have been keeping it under their power and influence for a long time. I wish I had more company in this very important and necessary task. Such a role is always going to be seen as “negative” by those who are targeted, but that’s too bad; they don’t get to do what they do without a pushback from me.
Even if I didn’t exist, there’d be another set of facts, and one that form the prism through which this discussion takes place.
Joshua Nightshade is a sick, broken human being, the victim of abuse as a child (or so he histrionically claims) who perpetrates this on others now as an adult, meanwhile constantly and cunningly lying about it, covering his tracks, and constantly vying for attention, even negative attention, just to feel alive. That sort of persona really thrives on Internet histrionics.
A good example of the kind of thing Joshua Nightshade does is to get a picture of my door in RL, then pass it to a friend of mine, because I have him on mute, and tell her (Cocoanut) in alarm that he got this sent to him by *gasp* an alt OMG, and OMG, he is reporting it to the Lindens because OMG that is stalking and RL harassment, and isn’t that awful! And he, Joshua, who stalks me in RL and writes little wierd shit like “You had an umbrella today and I said hi and you didn’t see me and I live two blocks from you” then tries to style himself not as a despicable stalker, but as a “saviour” who is “alerting the Lindens” as “a good citizen” to this “awful person who takes pictures of doors in RL”. It’s like a split or multiple personality, and well fits the psychological profile of abusers, who often suddenly show feigned preoccupation with the welfare and care of those that in fact they try to abuse.
It’s such a pathetic and sick little routine, and so transparently what it is, a lame bid for attention. If Joshua can say loud enough that Prokofy only creates “animosity and a personal agenda,” he can attract the support of people who are older and more established or more popular that he is desperately and cravenly trying to suck up to. He sees there is already a little claque of Prokofy-haters on SC like Cristiano or Weedy, self-important little busy-bodies trying to cling to their former power in SL which eroded considerably with the loss of their hold on the old forums, so he tries to join them, using the currency of the realm. He’s not the first nor the last, it’s a little bonding ritual.
Anyway, long conversations on this subject have long been held on SC, and it’s a crashing bore. I simply don’t wish to engage in it — it only fuels the narcissism of a sicko like Nightshade. Every once in awhile, it’s worth countering whatever caper he gets up to as a lot of new people and fresh pairs of ears come along to hear the bullshit, where he is disguising the craven need for adulation under false altruism.
Nacon
Mar 17th, 2007
Prok said: “Joshua Nightshade is a sick, broken human being, the victim of abuse as a child (or so he histrionically claims) who perpetrates this on others now as an adult, meanwhile constantly and cunningly lying about it, covering his tracks, and constantly vying for attention, even negative attention, just to feel alive. That sort of persona really thrives on Internet histrionics.”
Uhh… prok.. that sounds a lot like you. You DO lie, covering up your own lies, vying up for attention by spewing out your never ending list of theories. YOUR sort of persona DO thrives on internet and blogs.
It’s like having Satan saying to God that he’s not nice to people, which is stupid.
Joshua has been nothing but social support with outstanding I.Q. level comparing to yours. For fuck stakes… don’t say your “age” means wisdom or any of that senior crap that they wanted to hear just to live longer happily.
All hail to Narcissism Prok!
(enjoy your new kind of attention)
Prokofy Neva
Mar 17th, 2007
>Joshua has been nothing but social support with outstanding I.Q. level comparing to yours.
I’ll let the denizens of SC follow up on that one.
Nacon
Mar 17th, 2007
again… you just want to do that for attention to prove anything.
All hail to Narcissism Prok! dun dun dun!
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Thanks Nacon. Prokofy’s attacks on anyone tend to echo more about herself than anything else. You only need to watch what words she chooses to ridicule others with to see reflections of her own internal conflicts.
FFS!
Mar 17th, 2007
>>I only ever had one issue with Anshe; her brazen misuse of the DMCA. – Joshua
FFS do you ever get tired of lying? Join date on Second Citizen by Joshua Nightshade: 8/31/06. In his hello thread ((http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=2306)) only 4 posts into it he says disgusting things about Anshe. ((“Anshe Chung is a f**king c*m rag and I bet she has hairy kneecaps. Wow. That was liberating.”)) The griever attack on Anshe’s interview happened around 12/20 so that DMCA was after that. So you are saying Joshua you had no issue with her before this? So you just say this stuff about people for no good reason other then attention or to fit in? And this makes you qualified to be a leader how exactly? You are nothing more then an attention whore who takes on big names to weasel in. That is what I figured and has been shown in the thread on SC linked in the piece here.
>Joshua has been nothing but social support with outstanding I.Q. level comparing to yours.
>>I’ll let the denizens of SC follow up on that one.
LMAO!!! Two words: Search Results. Key in the name Joshua Nightshade. Decide on your own findings peoples.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
I didn’t like Anshe before, no, but the only personal issue I ever had with her was the DMCA thing. That doesn’t change the fact that many of my friends have come up against her and had their parcels griefed because they refused to sell to her, or had the land around them terraformed skyward to push them out, etc. I don’t have to make apologies for anything I said to her, to you. Anshe took my comments a lot better than you apparently seem to.
FFS!
Mar 17th, 2007
The focus is not on Anshe you nit but the character you display. You are not one to be taken seriously for a task like this. A person would be foolish to align themselves with you based on posts by you as sole factor. You appear well behaved here likely for your notoriety sake ((In your mind of course)) on SC your response would be “F**ck Off”. This further proves your chameleon tactics to elevate yourself. Simple question: Why should anyone trust you and believe you would not use this for your own advantage? You wish to play griever punk and social leader all in one pulling neither off because you instead become laughing stalk fodder.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
I’m perfectly fine debating any aspect of this, even my personal character if you choose, but don’t you think it’s disrespectful to raise the issue of trust in the first place when you aren’t even phrasing your questions under a normal identity but rather an anonymous nickname? If you want to discuss something with me, or even accuse me of whatever perceived slights you feel I’m guilty of, by all means I’m all ears. But don’t expect me to take you that serious if you aren’t giving me the same respect I’m giving you.
FFS!
Mar 17th, 2007
I am not pushing an agenda and your public persona is quite well noted through your posts. so no, it is not disrespectful as there are no rules here to say I must. If you wish to avoid the issues raised by feigning indigent prose over a user name then my point is well made. Leadership is not for you as you coat tail your way to mediocrity. This is not your forum, nor your thread even and choosing to evade the issues with the user name tactic shows your inadequacy in spades.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
I didn’t try to evade the issue. I pointed out that those who are coming from a position of mistrust themselves aren’t the best equipped to raise it in the first place.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
And it seems to me that your agenda is some issue you have with me. Which is fine, I don’t expect to be universally loved.
FFS!
Mar 17th, 2007
You have no need to trust me. I am not pushing for a group that impacts the SL community spearheaded by myself. An issue with you is also not the issue. This is where your ability to discern shows it’s weakness. Further proof you are not a leader nor posses the leadership skills to carry out this project. Your fixations on SL personalities and other issues are public record of your own posting. One does not need to have a personal issue with you to raise these concerns. I do not like you. I think you are a boy trying to fit into a grown up world but that is on you, not me. You have carried your own persona through the mud. I just again ask how you can be trusted and respected to carry this out?
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
I’ve already handled that concern; those people who aren’t interested in looking beyond personal issues with me aren’t going to change their mind until they see the system working. You might not like me and you might not trust me, which is fine. I don’t expect everyone to start putting their thumbs up as I walk past. But enough people do like me and do see the need for this and do trust that, as I am not a gigantic content creator whose income is based in SL entirely, I’m not starting this to make myself rich. Whatever my vitriol and whatever problems anyone might have with my word-choices I’m pretty confident that I’ve demonstrated time and again that my concern isn’t for my own well-being and rather improvement of the community. To those who disagree no effort of prose will change your minds; you’ll just have to see it in practice.
FFS!
Mar 17th, 2007
{{But enough people do like me and do see the need for this and do trust }} -Joshua Nightshade
I read the thread and do not see much support from the forum. Who supports you in this effort? I am interested in if this is even worthy of further pursuit. If they support the movement I am sure they would not mind being on record here by name. Please list who is willing to make this work with you. That can certainly place the matter in a better light.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
That thread wasn’t anything more than feeling out for suggestions and criticism; it doesn’t surprise me at all that there was lots of it.
When there’s a formal announcement launching the project an official list of vendors who’re participating will be provided.
Mulch Maker
Mar 17th, 2007
True Story
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=9719
that thread has Josh accusing several people of things with no evidence, loudly and publiclly… i was one of them. He even went out of his way to publish PRIVATE MESSAGES in an effort to make me look bad… he was also diagnosed by noted radio shrink Dr. Laura as being a pthological liar
that thread starts off completely unrelated to Joshua, but he soon co-opts it, make it his, makes a fool of himself by finding out he accuses the wrong people of things all the time, masturbates to posts, claims pwnage of the innerwebs, does things to make himself look like scum to try to make me look bad, and then brags about it
yes, this is a great picture of the true Joshua Nightshade
now Prokofy, on the other hand, still hasn’t mentioned if she takes it up the pooper, and i find everyones lack of interest in my nuts disturbing!
Enjoy
-Mulch Maker
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Hi Mulchie. Glad you’re back with us again! :wave:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Oh and Mulch, since when are apologies you made to me making you look bad? :\ You’re ashamed for owning up to your antisocial behavior?
Mulch Maker
Mar 17th, 2007
ladies and gentleman, pay attention to Joshua Nightshade, in the spotlight in the center ring, as he twists facts to suit his own agenda
watch in amazement as he tries to manipulate the facts to “trick” the reader into buying into his rewritten history and switch the topic away from himself and his dishonesty
unless joshua has been on an editting spree, everything i said is right there in that thread… or linked from that thread
and besides, almost as if by request, according to some information about pathological liars (which noted radio shrink dr laura diagnosed joshua with), josh performs for you above this post:
“They “construct” a reality around themselves. They don’t value the truth, especially if they don’t see it as hurting anyone. If you call them on a lie and they are backed into a corner, they will act very defensively and say ugly things (most likely but depends on personality), but they may eventually start to act like, “Well, what’s the difference? You’re making a big deal out of nothing!” (again, to refocus the conversation to your wrongdoing instead of theirs). ”
anyway Josh, what does this thread have to do with me anyway? the only mention of me here was my testicles, and much to my dismay, there is not a whole lot of discussion about them going on
this topic focuses much more on you, your character, your capacity to lead, your capacity to be trusted, how you get along in group situations, SUCH AS A GUILD, and how you want to be “in charge” of people and make decisions about them
that is the focus, and the facts about you that i have brought forth are surely relevant
so, what were you saying about me again, josh?
-Mulch
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
It doesn’t have anything to do with you at all; you’re completely correct. So why are you trying to take the spotlight jealous-man?
YHelloThar
Mar 17th, 2007
YOU KNOW THAT TIME IS IS????
http://plif.andkon.com/archive/wc134.gif
Mulch Maker
Mar 17th, 2007
“It doesn’t have anything to do with you at all; you’re completely correct. So why are you trying to take the spotlight jealous-man?
”
“take the spotlight from” you?
and who do you think you are, the leader of the opressed content creators, right?
actually, Prokofy mentioned my scrot, not by their names, but i was clearly as involved with looking out for others interest as you according to the OP! (well, at least my balls are)
anyway kid, enjoy your “spotlight”
of course the “spotlight” is more important to you than any other part
you are totally unglued and no one in their right mind is going to let you lead them anywhere, as your manipulations, drama whoring, lies, and string of enemies will never be far behind you
anyway
:FIC:
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
Thanks for the advice, but you, like Prok, demonstrate one thing: if you’re bitching, I’m doing something right.
FFS!
Mar 17th, 2007
Joshua you evade accusations by attempting to turn them around to focus on something else. You do not despite what you believe own up to anything.
Mulch Maker has proven his case about you in that thread to the point of what should be utter shame for you yet you continue on with your one liner spins and never actually address it. If this does not show your incompetence to lead to yourself whatever will? Do you believe honestly you are a leader in Second Life? Do you think people should follow you into this group? If so I am astounded.
How respected members of the SL community such as Aimee Weber and Cristiano Midnight can align with you and trust you not to turn on them someday is mind blowing. You post PMs in that thread that were assumed confidential. I do so hope any respectable SL seller does not believe for one moment any confidential conversations in a group led by you would not be exploited as you did in that Second Citizen thread for your own twisted build up of yourself.
God Yes, this is a spotlight for you. Nothing more then another mental masturbation feeding your already astronomical ego in the name of helping the SL community. Good luck with that.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
FFS: I’m not addressing anything from Mulch because he more than anything else highlights his own tenuous grip on reality. He abused people for weeks before finally “quitting” SC (which was more like everyone he was once friends with was offended beyond measure by his actions) only to come back a few weeks later under the Dr. Laura alt to continue his harassment of others. His opinion of me proves nothing whatsoever and you only need to look at his own posts to see he reflects everything he complains I represent. There’s no point in addressing it because he lies, plain and simple, and I’m not wasting my energy defending myself against him when he hears voices coming from the three-week old macaroni in his fridge.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
And, if respected members of the SL community such as Aimee Weber and Cristiano Midnight align themselves with me, it’s probably because they know nothing that Mulch ejaculates onto the internet is worth its weight in paperclips.
Mulch Maker
Mar 17th, 2007
So you and Aimee Weber and Cristiano Midnight are all aboard then?
is this a “scoop” for the herald?
any other names that you care to *drop*?
btw, keep focusing the issue on everyone but yourself, the foretold leader of the content revolution!
You shall know Him by His “spotlight”
Mulch may be an asshole, but he is not trying to be leader of a group of people he is trying to ride the coat tails of
but don’t worry everyone, Josh will decide, he will make sure everyone gets what they deserve
right Josh?
:mulch:
FFS!
Mar 17th, 2007
Joshua, you miss the point. It is not about what Mulch or others say. Mulch Maker simply laid out a line to follow. It is YOUR actions and YOUR comments that I am talking about that show your character. You prove your own untrustworthiness and a leader must be trustworthy. Again and again, you point to others to not address your failings. I am quite sure the public can sees that point.
Mulch Maker
Mar 17th, 2007
Yes FFS, it is totally transparent to everyone but Joshua
he can say anything, the worst things about me possible… hell, he may even be correct
however, how he handles himself, the methods he employs, the way he manipulates people, speak quite well for itself in that thread i posted
the more he said, the bigger hole he dug for himself
yes, it was quite obvious to everyone but Joshua himself…
anyone wanting josh to lead them to the promissed land, however, need only to see how he operates to end that association… i predict the prokofy fan club will be a bigger success
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 17th, 2007
FFS: I respectfully disagree. And as I said already, if you don’t like me, you’re not going to suddenly change your mind all at once. I’ve asked for the opportunity to demonstrate the concept, which is not just “mine” but a collaborative effort borne out of discussions with content creators, consumers, people who’ve tried to set this up before and failed, and yes even people who think I’m a punk kid. I’m argumentative, yes, but never once have I ever demonstrated being “untrustworthy.” And no, printing a private message wherein Mulch apologized to me for previously printing my private messages without my permission doesn’t count. My reputation for being a shit-stirrer doesn’t include back-stabber. If it did, people much smarter and with more on the line than Mulch wouldn’t be my friends. You, yourself, already pointed out that they are. They are with good reason. If you allow yourself to be swayed by a hypocritical idiot you won’t see that. So, again, you’re not going to be proven wrong about me until, well, you’re proven wrong. And that’s not going to happen in The Prokofy Herald.
So give me a chance to do it before you cry at how I’m unqualified.
Cristiano Midnight
Mar 17th, 2007
Glad to see the Herald continue to uphold its fine standards of letting writers write personal attack pieces and try to pass them off as articles. This is a great follow up to the article last week where the flat faced generic looking female author complained about how someone else was too ugly in RL to be allowed to be in fashion in SL (she even dissed the woman’s dog, who was cuter than the OP). Now, we have the penultimate in ugly and hateful ranting and raving because someone she doesn’t like wants to start a BBB to help cut down on the sale of stolen content. Please explain to me again what bringing up someone’s sexual abuse as a child has to do with forming a BBB? Lame, lame lame. This kind of tripe should be in personal blogs, not the Herald.
Cristiano Midnight
Mar 17th, 2007
Mulch,
Since you brought the WoW guild’s business into all of this, I will point out that you staged a vote as leader of the guild in which other officers either had to vote out Joshua, or you would leave. They were not allowed to vote whether they wanted him to stay in freely. Sansarya at least had the integrity to leave the guild after that, whereas Ryan, who was implicit in the whole thing, just went on to lead it and act as business as usual. You are the last person who should be criticizing anyone for how they would run a group after you have a fake, secret “vote” to get rid of someone you don’t like. Joshua is many things, and is certainly not perfect, but he is not the pathological liar and untrustworthy person you claim him to be. If anything, he is trusting and open to a fault, and I am proud to have him as a friend. Josh is definitely doing something right to have you and Prokofy as his loudest critics.
Cristiano
Nacon
Mar 17th, 2007
yeah…. except this isn’t an actual Herald News for SL. Dun dun dun!~
oh well, don’t care.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
Funny you should show up cris!
funny it would be you to arrive on the scene when josh digs too deep
funny you should bring guild drama here… all that is well documented if anyone is interested, as i ended up leaving yhe guild and petitioning the remaining officers to bring josh back as i had handled by bizness wrong
and then josh faked a fight and started shit within the guild so he could cancel his wow subscription because he was bored and blame the guild on it (all admitted by josh)
things you might possibly have known if you were an actual officer in the guild, not just having the “ceremonial rank” as homage to you creating the guild.
then there is the fact that you wanted nothing to do with it for, how long has it been since you participated in something guild related anyway?
fact is, you know what you know about the story from josh, so i say consider the source
btw, Josh has claimed that you and Aimee are indeed on board with Josh and his little project of the week, is this true?
i thought we were cool but if we are giving each other permission to speak freely (as per your last sentence), let’s go!
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
Uh, since you insist on bringing up things that have nothing to do with nothing, as I said I quit the guild because of how Ryan (IE, you) were running it. I canceled my subscription because the guild was the only reason why I bothered playing. I left it when it was clear Ryan was your sockpuppet and he was going to run it into the ground. You’re right, that part is well-documented.
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=190650&postcount=299
IE, “I only signed on to participate with friends in the guild and now I don’t have to.”
You never quit the guild, as we all knew but most of us gave you the benefit of the doubt on, and when I saw you back as an officer when you promised you were leaving both the guild and SC I knew you were full of shit and I chose to no longer have anything to do with you.
And I never said anything at all about Aimee and Cris participating in the BBB. Where did you pull that from? FFS said that he/she didn’t understand why they were my friends. I confirmed that, yes, they are. Nice try though.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
And you’re so totally insane. YOU brought the WoW guild here. In your very first comment on this article. You’re hilarious.
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
((but he is not the pathological liar and untrustworthy person you claim him to be.)) – Cristiano Midnight
Cristiano, do you feel it is an untrustworthy move by Joshua (Or anyone for that matter)to post private PMs or chat logs (as was the case with a land broker) for the public? Is it untrustworthy to post private messages for the public’s fodder?
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
FFS: I posted Mulch’s PMs after he already posted mine; and all I posted were where he was apologizing over and over for how he’s acted in the past.
I don’t really understand what that has to do with anything, however. Mulch never asked me in the first place not to post anything, I made no oath nor promise to keep his messages to me secret, and given his behavior I see no reason why I should. It would be a different story if he had ever once asked me not to post anything. I respect privacy as a matter of principle ofcourse, but when someone is posting outright lies and I have a PM proving it you’re certainly correct that I will use it.
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
And that is where you lose me. The PMs and IMs between two people are private in nature. If it were for everyone to see they would take place in the open. You view them as private only until needed to make a point. That tells me you would use private discussions within this group as a weapon if needed. This concerns me as it would many others. It does not show good character for business dealings. It would be much like putting the Herald over the official AR system at LL. Any choice info that came through would be too hard to resist for a good story. You use situations much like this. To garner attention and “fit in” you pull out conversations and display them. For someone in a game setting that is bad enough, but for someone in a serious business arena it is volatile. You have displayed malice with chat logs (like with the before mentioned land broker) to destroy character and business. This is character assassination that you take glee in. No, the people may not have great character that you do this to (as you pointed out with Anshe) but this does not matter with how you chose to respond. You worked very hard to be seen as a jack ass Joshua and to say “let me show you, let me prove it to you” is arrogant. You are asking for a position and trust that you have done everything to derail in the eyes of the ones you ask to join with you. It is like a Howard Stern saying “Wait, I am now serious. You can trust me to be lead you into a better economy. I can be good when I want to. I will keep your private matters in confidence and respect”. You wanted to be this bad boy and you got the attention that comes with that.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
Well, you’re completely incorrect, and it’s massively hypocritical to hold me to a standard that you seem to apply indiscriminately based on whether you like someone or not. I never “wanted to be this bad boy” which is your first incorrect assumption nor do I do anything “to fit in.” Incorrect assumption deux. I didn’t pull out a PM to prove a point; I pulled out a PM after mine were already being paraded about because the PM in question demonstrated that someone else was lying. There’s a huge difference.
You have an incorrect opinion of me that thankfully most other people don’t share.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
“I didn’t pull out a PM to prove a point; I pulled out a PM after mine were already being paraded about ”
your PMs were being paraded about, pinocchio?
links pls