Bad Business
by prokofy on 16/03/07 at 5:18 pm
Kids playing “Better Business Bureau” always picture themselves as the chair of the board.
Prokofy Neva, Consumer Watch
Goddamn, here we go again. Yet another stupid, misinformed attempt to create a “Better Business Bureau”. And yet another “ratings” system that styles itself as a “Better Business Bureau” even though, unlike a better system, slrealreps.com, it has no place to write commentary. Can you count like 20 of these in the last two years? (And those are only the ones we hear about). Remember all the “whitelist” debates on the old forums? Gwyn’s pontification? Remember Chili Carson’s big splash with this at SLCC and all the press attention she got? (None of those reporters came back a few months later to discover, as we did, that no BBB ever got made due to pressing RL commitments of the founder).
Like many more competent before him, notorious Second Citizen bad-boy Joshua Nightshade has cooked up the latest BBB “concept” in response to the usual skin-theft hysteria which differs little from all those before him, and works something like this: “No business but my business and my friends’ business.”
Remember when we were kids? We would all climb up in the treehouse, and for some, the most fun part was kicking aside the ladder to prevent somebody’s snivelly little brother from climbing up and being in the exclusive club of older kids. Everybody laughed like hell and felt superior and special…until they realized that now they couldn’t get out of the treehouse themselves. That’s what all these attempts are like: misguided, because they involve making yourself and your friends the “good guys” on the “whitelist” and blacklisting everybody else who is “bad” — because you say so — and killing the overall climate for thriving business.
Even on griefsta tit-posting Second Citizen (if you missed Mulch Ennui’s posting of a pic of his RL scrotum, I guess you haven’t lived Second Life), the gang starts to raise objections when they sense that Joshua, who has had his own heavy skirmishes with the tribe there, is simply making up a list of himself and his chums to leave other people off he hates. Siggy Romulus is the first to squawk that with stuff like that, Prokofy will be screaming FIC before you know it.
All of these ventures fail, even the most highly-qualified and best-intentioned of them (Chili Carson got all that pre-press because she represented a RL big accounting firm in SL, although it never came to anything?) for one simple reason: people don’t understand what the Better Business Bureau is in real life, and what it does, and how that should be adapted to the harsh Wild West conditions of Second Life.
CONSUMER-DRIVEN, NOT BUSINESS-DRIVEN BBB
If you’d like to understand, it’s easy enough to go to bbb.org and read how it works. It’s also helpful to talk to those who have actually filed cases with it, and seen how the steps work and what the system does and doesn’t do.
Unlike all the wannabee Second Life “Better Business Bureaus,” the BBB isn’t made up of a select coterie of top businesses who like to envision themselves as “maintaining order” against a gaggle of lawless copyright thieves, skin-rippers, copybotters and scammers. It’s not the Chamber of Commerce or some sort of Association of Regional Business — or the Sellers’ Guild, protecting its special interests. It’s a *better business* bureau because the way it works to *make business better* is not round up business wagons into a circle to fire at people they don’t like — smaller businesses, businesses they believe to be scammers, or consumers. Instead, the “better business” is ensured by those directly affected by it — consumers.
No, far from being top-down and top-heavy, the BBB rests on the concept of citizens’ actions from below at the grassroots operating to make business better. Business gets better not from businesses deciding to be better; business gets better because consumers compel them to be better. The concept is *consumer-driven* not business driven. That is, the *consumer* — the person who develops a complaint about business, large or small — drives the system. It is he — not another business fancing itself the pillar-of-the-community, who fills out a complaint and attempts to find a hearing, both with the volunteers and paid staff at BBB or similar organizations, and with others who access his assessment, and the public at large. This simple distinction between “consumer-driven” and “business-driven” is lost on all the folks trying to recreate the BBB in SL.
TRACKING A CONSUMER COMPLAINT VS. BUSINESS-IMPOSED STANDARDS
So, for example, once I develop a problem in RL with a shady car repair garage on the West side, I can look up their information with the BBB, and find out that others have also had complaints about their pretend-repair jobs and whopping bills. I can file all my information and work with the BBB to get some justice — it’s a civic method of redress rather than attempting the arduous route of going to small claims court or taking more serious legal action, although the advice you get can also go in that direction. If that West side car shop wants a better reputation, it has to clear up my problem and get the case resolved and show it operates in good faith.
It isn’t that all the car repair shops on the West Side band together among themselves to protect their “good name,” and lock out all the car repair shops on the East side they believe to be “scammers,” and call consumers who complain about them “trolls”. No, that’s not it at all. Instead, it’s an open system that gains transparency precisely because it’s driven from below, not from above, and it rests on the free actors of citizens all over assessing how the car repair shop really functions, and really reporting realistically on it.
Of course, there could be that East Side car shop who might, if real life was filled as much with anonymous bad actors operating in bad faith as Second Life, submit a fake consumer complaint to tar the noble name of the West sider car shop. But that sort of anomaly gets ignored in a system where everyone can freely submit good and bad complaints — there’s a “where there’s smoke, there’s fire” concept going on.
WHITELIST ME AND MY FRIENDS, BLACKLIST MY ENEMIES
Businesses, if they want to be better, develop good practices and pay attention to consumer complaints and also feel the heat of accountability by knowing that a system like the BBB can at any time call them on their shoddy merchandise, dodgy sales tactics, and poor service. But that’s not what the wannabee BBBers in SL want to do — they want to make a Guild, and ban everybody else. The BBB has many elements that help businesses organize and share information and so on — but the heart and soul of the operation is the *consumer complaint process, not the business-driven white-listing process envisioned by SLers*.
Whitelists are what the FIC and business elite have always wanted to make out of every BBB type operation. That’s why the Electric Sheep’s FlipperPA Peregrine weighs in on this thread telling us that the way to go to make a BBB is to use Ban-Link. For him, the heart of the system isn’t accountability of those in power and those who should be responsible to consumers, but keeping in power those who have large land and third-party shopping sites that even if “commission-free” helps burness their reputation and more importantly, provides them with vast amounts of customer and market information for free.
That means not serving the customer, but banning everyone you don’t like, or imagine, without any due process, http://www.typepad.com/t/app/weblog/post?blog_id=274032&id=31759822&saved_changes=1#
Italicto be a scammer. Arbitrarily, for example, he has placed me on Ban-Link because he doesn’t like my *writings* (not because I’ve cage-bombed his sim inworld!). But that’s what he and other Ban-Link proponents imagine is the bright future of Second Life, cleansed of all those “unwanted elements” and “parasites”.
KILLING THE CLIMATE FOR BUSINESS AND STANCHING THE INFUSION OF NEW BLOOD
The problem with such cleansing is you wind up being unable to get down from the treehouse, you become isolated, and eventually you and your high-falutin’ friends wither away and die from lack of connection to everything else — and lack of a feedback loop that can send important market signals.
When you make the bar so high for becoming “approved,” and establish “criteria for membership” (Chili Carlton was going in that direction, acting like a Chamber of Commerce rather than a BBB) new businesses with creative ideas and often an eager following of new customers cannot enter your midst. Ultimately, they start making their own associations and clubs then and leave you out. People are incredibly grim and grisly about sharing business information in Second Life for the greater good; many inworld business types assume that you are as nasty and cut-throat about business as they are, and they’d rather put a horsehead on your bed that cooperate. It’s a phase.
Sellers Guild and the awfully-named Content Vigilantes that Nightshade is hyping are what in fact people pretending to be BBBs really want. They want an exclusive club that can drive out people they think are either poor in talent or suspect as to copying content — with themselves as judge and jury. They want the most aggressive and mean-spirited deterrence they can think of to any too competitors — and they’re willing to call “copiers” even people who simply got the same indea they did independently and executed it better, or who simply went to the same Internet photo stock and auction house sites as they did and copied the same RL stuff from authors they didn’t credit, either.
The viciousness of the Sellers Guild mentality knows no bounds when it comes to claims about yardsalers commiting “theft” because they legally and rightly sold objects put consciously on “copy” and “transfer” by their creators — who wanted to inflict the burden of viral marketing on others.
The SC thread is an instructive lesson in how the harsh tribal ethics of the exclusive and abusive clan functions to obtain conformity. Some of the group may wind up following Nightshade into making yet another self-appointed and suspect “whitelist” that vindictively persecutes people they believe to be in the wrong, or they may very well use the same abusive tactics to club him into submission to prevent *him* from whitelisting to reserve for themselves the right to whitelist. Regardless, none of those speaking in this debate have grasped the higher issues here: better business is created by consumers, not businesses.
Businesses may believe themselves to be altruistic, but their interest is always in the bottom line. Consumers, on the other hand, have their purchasing dollar as their ultimate power and their willingness to engage in a range of response, from private to vocal protest to litigation.
CONSUMER VERSUS BUSINESS INTERESTS IN SL
We don’t need a “Better Business Bureau” in Second Life, which with these individuals, and these particular intentions, will turn into at best another failed experiment in FICdom or at worst a cabal to enforce Ban-Link even more ominously. What we need are consumer-driven organizations that look at what constitutes good practices and what they can positively promote as serving their interests as buyers.
Buyers, at root, cannot care tremendously about skin-copying. That’s a harsh but real truth. Skin-copying, if it leads to cheaper skins for their purchase, are not going to be a source of consternation for them. But good skin makers with loyal followings can get consumers on their side if they show that skin-copiers are inferior, won’t provide updates or modifications or customized options because they are thieves, and don’t supply customer service. Those concerned about copying have to provide the array of service that the consumer won’t get from a thief; sadly, that is the only real recourse in SL under the current conditions.
Buyers also care about the ability to copy because it’s a convenience to them, given how much everything breaks constantly and gets lost in Second Life. That means builders that sell houses in one copy only for fantastic sums because they are worried about people being able to rez out copies endlessly are not a better business from the consumers point of view.
Smart builders know that not only do they have to provide copyable buildings, they even have to frankly incorporate into their product the fact that thousands of small rental agencies all across the grid are going to put out a row of their copyable homes to rent, and will want the scripted devices to function on separate channels. They won’t follow landlords around screaming that they are making unauthorized copies, or sell them a single copy of a $5000 house that breaks the first time the Lindens crash a sim and lose half the build. They realize that renters who see a house they like in a rental become a long-term customer prospect and buy from that house creator; that landlords who have a supplier who takes into account their needs are bulk purchasers, trying every new model. If you are a house-maker today in Second Life still selling single-copy breakable houses, and you aren’t in the very high-end custom niche market where people spend hundreds of RL dollars on their cribs, you are not going to get in the consumers’ better business list. This is the reality of serving the consumer in a free market.
Thus, from these examples you can see what “better business” in SL really fears: empowered consumers who will force them to meet their needs better, just as they do in RL. And that fear drives them to form oppressive guilds and try to lord it over forums and venues to keep in power. It’s the driving force of the core problem of SL, that has an incredibly harsh anti-business climate as its founding ideology, even though paradoxically the Lindens themselves have a profit-making business (or should be) selling land, and even though they welcomed RL big business on to their platform. That harsh climate is embodied by the few at the very peak of the pyramid controlling media, public venues, forums, etc. to ensure that they stay in power. In that sense, it’s no different than any small mid-Western town where the town fathers from the “best families” run things.
What SL needs is bunches and bunches of consumer groups coming into being to fight for all kinds of things — rights of island deed purchasers against scamming island owners; rights of television and radio buyers to be protected from unscrupulous media makers who go offline for long periods, don’t answer IMs, or even quit SL and never serve their customers; rights even of purchasers of sex services not to be ripped off by scamming pimps. Ever sector needs its Ralph Naders.
CRITERIA FOR AN SL BBB
The reality is that every so often, some pompous and pretentious set will nevertheless go about making a BBB, with themselves featured prominently in it. I haven’t found a better set of criteria than the one I developed back in 2005 as an argumentation against Gwyn’s dismissal of consumer-based advocacy when we had this discussion:
o The BBB has to have buy-in from various sectors of players, old, new, random. It has to be free of alts, free of obvious Linden favouritism, and representing different sectors, not just the old buiness sector elites but the new businesses and new players and randomizing factors to keep it from being biased itself. The make-up of the BBB has to be something that has respectability and credibility to all, and doesn’t cause some average players, when acquainted with it, to roll their eyes.
o The BBB cannot be an in-game scripted, information-gathering, third-party site operation that uses the guise of the BBB to continue to gain an advantage in the game by gathering dossiers on other players. That means it cannot be run off third-party sites that collect information *when they themselves do not sign up to follow the TOS as those entities*. Some businesses envision themselves above the fray and free of fault and imagine themselves running this entity to protect themselves from investigation. Your notion that the people forming this cannot themselves ever make a mistake seems laudable, but you’re forgetting that you can blot out their actual past harmful mistakes simply by blessing them with membership in this group, where they get to lord it over others forever. I’m for having a rotating membership of this given the way in which possession of the BBB itself will be gained by the power groupings.
o Picking one player’s lot in the game, one player’s business, or one player’s website — or group of players — will instantly discredit this BBB and only stimulate consumer advocacy movements against it as it will be a bastion of Big Business. Even for “convenience” it cannot be “housed” within one player’s business or “housed” on their website where they use their scripts or website functions to gather information as they perform investigations.
There has to be transparency involved in the investigation process itself and it cannot become a backroom function for “confidentiality” reasons. There’s a lot more that has to be said about due process here.
o Lindens who become involved in it have to be of the “office Linden” type with highly professional backgrounds, and not liaisions who were five minutes ago old players with their biases and networks
o The BBB has to have the power to investigate charges of fraud, and charges of bad business practices, and charges of reputation slander. But it cannot become the last instance. The last instance must be Linden Lab and its TOS and its own procedures.
o The formation of the BBB and its operation cannot be a secretive process but must have transparency and accountability
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
Go read the thread. You also never provided any proof where I (as you claimed) gave you permission to post them. I’m still waiting.
Chris aka Ryan00 Odets
Mar 18th, 2007
Mulch,
Since you brought the WoW guild’s business into all of this, I will point out that you staged a vote as leader of the guild in which other officers either had to vote out Joshua, or you would leave. They were not allowed to vote whether they wanted him to stay in freely. Sansarya at least had the integrity to leave the guild after that, whereas Ryan, who was implicit in the whole thing, just went on to lead it and act as business as usual. You are the last person who should be criticizing anyone for how they would run a group after you have a fake, secret “vote” to get rid of someone you don’t like. Joshua is many things, and is certainly not perfect, but he is not the pathological liar and untrustworthy person you claim him to be. If anything, he is trusting and open to a fault, and I am proud to have him as a friend. Josh is definitely doing something right to have you and Prokofy as his loudest critics.
Cristiano
Cris you should get your facts straight before makin accusations about me and my guild.
1. I came into the josh drama after the decision to boot him was made. I was gone visiting my brother that weekend and didnt have a clue what was going on.
2. Sansarya left the guild only because she couldnt figure out how to be removed as a officer.
3.WTF was I suppose to do this guild has had enough drama, dont you think? I mean you lost control once and the guild went to shit. I think I did a damn good job keeping people together.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
“Go read the thread. You also never provided any proof where I (as you claimed) gave you permission to post them. I’m still waiting.
”
still waiting to see the parade… the links to the public display, which is what a parade is
in case you weren’t aware, here is the definition:
1. a large public procession, usually including a marching band and often of a festive nature, held in honor of an anniversary, person, event, etc.
2. a military ceremony involving the formation and marching of troop units, often combined with saluting the lowering of the flag at the end of the day.
3. the assembly of troops for inspection or display.
4. a place where troops regularly assemble for inspection or display.
5. a continual passing by, as of people, objects, or events: the parade of pedestrians past the office; the parade of the seasons.
6. an ostentatious display: to make a parade of one’s religious beliefs.
7. Chiefly British. a. a group or procession of promenaders.
b. a promenade.
8. Fortification. the level space forming the interior or enclosed area of a fortification.
9. Fencing. a parry.
–verb (used with object) 10. to walk up and down on or in.
11. to make parade of; display ostentatiously.
12. to cause to march or proceed for display.
–verb (used without object) 13. to march in a procession.
14. to promenade in a public place, esp. in order to show off.
15. to assemble in military order for display.
16. to assume a false or misleading appearance: international pressure that parades as foreign aid.
or was the word parade added just for “dramatic” effect
cuz that is what someone in the “spotlight” is supposed to do, right?
create drama
you are a born leader, huh?
:mulch:
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
((You have an incorrect opinion of me that thankfully most other people don’t share.)) – Joshua Nightshade
Joshua, most means majority. I challenge you to put up a poll (unlogged of course) on SC. That is your home team. Ask this without manipulation:
Do you view me as trustworthy? with yes or no for options. Comments of course welcome. See how not just the regulars view you but the lurkers as well. Then you can say majority. I think you will be surprised by your findings though.
Chris aka Ryan00 Odets
Mar 18th, 2007
Josh I am not and will never be Mulch’s “sockpuppet”. But you on hte other hand would like to be mulch’s pink sock! I am really tired of your lies about me. If I am running the guild in the ground how come I just recruited two awesome lvl 70′s? Why is hte guild partnered up with a very good RP guild that also likes to bring us along for PVE events? Josh you need to shut your mouth about something you have no clue about. And MY guild is something you really need to shut your mouth.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
Hi Ryan! Glad you could come by to be Mulch’s sockpuppet.
Cristiano Midnight
Mar 18th, 2007
Mulch,
I don’t have a problem with you – what I have a problem with is you criticizing Joshua’s ability to be a leader of a group after what you did in the guild. It was not hearsay that came to me from Josh – it also came from Sans, and I directly asked Ryan in a private message if he had been given an ultimatim, and he said yes. I expressed to him that he should also resign, but he didn’t. I found that entire situation incredibly low – you don’t have officers vote under those circumstances with an ultimatum, it destroys the entire process and any faith in those people to lead. You are right, I had no part in it as more than casual participation in WoW never interested me much, and I was clear about that from the start. As far as my participation in what Josh is doing, where did he claim that? I actually have expressed lack of interest in it but I still support the idea and will participate if ultimately it interests me.
Ryan,
It is cute that you are backtracking now and changing your answer. It further proves my point that you have no business leading that guild either. I didn’t lose control of the guild – I gave it up freely because it did not interest me and I had only formed the guild to help ReallyRick Metropolitan out at the time. You have no credibility with me anyway for not stepping down after all that bullshit – the fact that now are claiming not to be involved at all in it after telling me you were when I asked you about it is a joke.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
cris
do tell
how much was josh involved with the guild when it didnt help him?
ask him
my guess is that he will mention he ran a few instances (which all happen to be in the warlock epic mount questline), and got some things from the bank (which are coincidently, needed to get the warlock epic mount)
did i mention that josh was a warlock with a shiney new epic mount?
so other than that, what else did he do in the guild, besides cause drama in the group dynamics situation?
repeatedly
while no one else did
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
I did a lot more for the guild than most of the other guildmembers. Holding aggro on you so you couldn’t go off making trouble with other people being the least of it. And I never got anything at all from the bank for the mount (despite, ofcourse, donating large amounts of gold and item for bank bag slots and other people’s mounts) whatsoever; I had a guildmember make some items I need after I provided her the materials, and I had another guildmember help me skin other items I needed (who very much appreciated the fact that I was helping him to grind elite monsters that were severely out of his level, and appreciated how much the drops he pulled sold on the auction house). The (single) instance we ran for the mount benefited the other people just as much as it did me because they got to accomplish quests and got XP that they didn’t get before.
But again, good job for bringing in WoW drama!
You, my little hairy friend, are the sole component behind any “group dynamics situation.” Because you are lonely and have no one to love you.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
You also like to leave out the many, many times I helped lowbies get flight plans, helped shepherd them when they were being ganked, how I answered questions in guildchat when your response was either “shut up” or “read the fucking manual,” how I helped lowbies grind for materials and experience, how I helped Number complete most of the quests in order to get his felhound, how I tanked instances for Scar and Richie so they could complete quests, how I ran instances in general for lowbies, etc etc etc.
But you know, whatever you find convenient to lie about.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
“You, my little hairy friend, are the sole component behind any “group dynamics situation.” Because you are lonely and have no one to love you.
”
this is you demonstrating your 1337 leaderin’ skills, huh?
and hey, i admit i went about it the wrong way, but here are the facts:
1 you are a cancer to large groups
2 I looked out for the health of the guild
3 you have had repeated, non stop in guild drama, so the vote was certainly out of the blue
4 You were repeatedly warned to stop doing what you were doing, yet you persisted despite its effect on the guild
5 I made the officers determine who was more healthy for the guild to have… they voted unanimously
so anyway, keep enjoying the spotlight, lil fella
and keep spinnin those yarns
you have, once again, proven yourself of what you are far better than anyone could have
:mulch:
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
((Well, you’re completely incorrect, and it’s massively hypocritical to hold me to a standard that you seem to apply indiscriminately based on whether you like someone or not. I never “wanted to be this bad boy” which is your first incorrect assumption nor do I do anything “to fit in.” Incorrect assumption deux.)) – Joshua Nightshade
If you did not want to be labeled “bad boy image” then explain the Prokofy busts and the Anshe Chung crusades. These people did nothing to you directly on the scale that you did to them. You run home to SC to post all you can when you do these things for attention. If that is not to fit in and try to get attention then I don’t know what is in your world. When someone strives to push out a negative image of themselves behaving as a griever what other end result are they hoping for? Your point of view is quite askew on these things Joshua. And I do not like you because of the way you did these things. To assume that someone should not make a decision about you while seeing you act in this fashion is wrong. This is not hypocritical, this is your public persona being echoed by what the public sees. I am sorry if the mirror image you see in it seems unfair to you.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
1 you are a cancer to large groups
No, I call you on your shit constantly and spectacularly and you hate it.
2 I looked out for the health of the guild
That’s why you “quit” then?
3 you have had repeated, non stop in guild drama, so the vote was certainly out of the blue
No, I’ve had repeated, non stop drama with YOU, because you have no life and are obsessed with me.
4 You were repeatedly warned to stop doing what you were doing, yet you persisted despite its effect on the guild
Yes, I was warned to kiss your ass and put up with your bullying and I chose to ignore your “suggestions.”
5 I made the officers determine who was more healthy for the guild to have… they voted unanimously
Wrong! And I can also post the whole thread too. Your exact words were “It’s either me or him. If you don’t vote him out, I quit.” They voted unanimously because they were your friends, but both Sans and FIC quit because they knew they did wrong and didn’t want to be a part of it. As they both said publicly.
Io Zeno
Mar 18th, 2007
I would just like to take a moment to personally thank both Prokofy and the Herald for generously hosting this and keeping it off of Second Citizen.
Have a super weekend.
<3
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
FFS: Prokofy’s never done anything to me on the scale I’ve done her? Uh, hardly. Notwithstanding in this very article where she made a hideous comment about my childhood, she posted on her website that I was a “rapist” because we live in the same neighborhood and I’ve had the unfortunate experience of running into her on person. She wrote that I am a “rapist” using my real life name, and despite the fact that screenshots were taken of the entry saying this and many, many people said they read it, Prokofy outright lied and said she never wrote it in the first place. Prokofy has repeatedly made accusations that I am alts of other people, that I’m lying about my age and where I live; she’s camped herself outside of my in-world store and told customers not to shop there, she’s harassed friends of mine because they were my friends. All I’ve ever done to Prokofy is respond to her. Yes, yes, I’m such a griefer.
I don’t “run” to SC. I post on SC and SLU. SC gets much more instantaneous traffic than SLU does and things can be brought out on SC that would get someone punished on the official forums.
I never have striven to generate a negative image about myself. Prokofy claims I’m a rapist and a griefer and I choose to not be dismayed that the original internet drama queen thinks bad of me; I make light of it. I joke. Oh well.
The Wikipedia/Anshe thing came out of my annoyance at seeing her abuse the DMCA and the lack of actual reporting into her background. And I also apologized for how I handled that very publicly already. Again, Anshe doesn’t think ill of me for it, how is it your business?
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
((because you have no life and are obsessed with me)) -Joshua Nightshade
And here is hypocritical so you do not throw the term around as you did with me. You are obsessed with Prokofy and were (and likely still are in some way) with Anshe. You get something in your craw and pursue it with malice and intent to destroy ( so long as it is a SL personality that is not popular with your circle). It has been seen many times on the forum SC and can be seen through a simple search function. If anyone has obsession control issues it would be someone with the post history and actions like your own. What is to stop you from abusing your position in this business group you are pushing against someone (such as posting private matters)?
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
Your postings of Prokofy and your Prokofy busts came well before this article. You made it a point to get on his radar before he knew who you were.
Larry the Cabal Guy
Mar 18th, 2007
Wow, three drama queen attention whoring assholes all neatly packaged in one thread!
Joshie, Mulchie and Proky.
Thanks peeps! You make it easy to know who to avoid like the damned plague.
Mulch is to Andy Kaufman as George Bush is to a genius.
Joshua is to community leader as Anne Coulter is to Mother Theresa.
Prok is to journalist as The National Enquirer is to The NY Times.
That’s entertainment!
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
Please read above. Prokofy attacked me relentlessly before I ever put out the busts of her. And even still I offered Prokofy an apology for that; he response was that I was obviously manipulating her. I’ve asked many, many times what it would take for things to be made right between she and I, or at the very least what it would take for her to cease writing about me. She’s made it clear that she’s not interested in being anything but a troll.
And if you don’t get that there’s a gigantic difference between calling someone a rapist, threatening to strangle them in real-life, and taking a photo of a bust that someone else made, then you’re suffering from some severe perspective-distortion.
Nolan Nash
Mar 18th, 2007
Hey, stop stealing my thunder Larry!
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
((Please read above. Prokofy attacked me relentlessly before I ever put out the busts of her.)) -Joshua Nightshade
My memory of you posting derogatory comments about Prokofy date well before busts, pictures etc. If you are saying he took the first shot. He started attacking you before you did him in forums then please point to that post. It isn’t there Joshua. I wish things could be different. I would love nothing more then to see content creators protected and a system in place that is fair for everyone. Your malice and griever actions of the past show you are not the fair cornerstone for the build. As a content creator I cannot align myself with someone with your reputation. That is just a fact, not a shot. Once the other creators who do not even frequent forums begin to research you as the leader spearheading it you will have a very uphill battle getting them to sign on with a drama inspiring griever. I will not likely say more on this as I think I have run the course on all I have to say so goodnight and good luck.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
I joined SL before Prokofy. That’s all that was needed to get on her shit-list. That’s the fact of the matter. And even if it weren’t, you’re saying that me taking a photo of busts someone else made lays the groundwork for someone to call me a -rapist?- Are you kidding? There’s nothing I could possibly do to Prokofy on the internet that would excuse her saying something like that. We’re not talking leaving prims on your parcel. We’re talking about someone using someone else’s real name along with the most vile of crimes. There’s no excuse for that sort of behavior, and nothing I’ve ever done to Prokofy would excuse it. End of story.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
funny
i had you pegged as portraying larry, nolan
on several levels
hope all is well in your world
:mulch:
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
((And even if it weren’t, you’re saying that me taking a photo of busts someone else made lays the groundwork for someone to call me a -rapist?- Are you kidding?)) – Joshua Nightshade
Since you asked I guess I should answer. No, that is not at all what I am saying. It is an awesome textbook spin that Mulch Maker has been saying you do though. You honestly proved that point with that comment right there. It is NOT acceptable that Prokofy said that. I see both of your actions as out of line and quite childish but you certainly were first to push your way in. If you did not know what to expect you should have stayed away. Again that is common sense that you are lacking in spades Joshua. You miss the boat on so much in this conversation. YOU are responsible for YOUR actions. If you do not want someone saying horrible things about you on the internet then you should stop stirring up hornet’s nests for attention. That is so simple I do not understand why I am even typing it. All actions illicit a reaction. You cannot go around on your crusades and expect everyone you attack to play by your moral expectation. Don’t push for reactions if you cannot handle the reactions. You do not seem to have the simple judgment of character in others if you are at all surprised by the reaction you received. This again does not bode well for your leadership worthiness.
Io Zeno
Mar 18th, 2007
I don’t know who you are FFS but you most certainly do not need to “draw attention” to yourself to make Prok’s hit list.
Case in point:
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=10026
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
Io,
the 2 of us never really saw eye to eye
but i am curious, would you feel that josh is a competent, trustworthy leader that you would place your bizness interests in (in some cases, a primary source of income)?
honestly, would josh inspire confidence leading you and your assetts?
no one is denying that prokofy is an obnoxious shithead… i dont even think prokofy would dispute that
i certainly dont dispute that i am an asshole
but this thread is only about me as far as my scrotum is concerned… the real conversation is not only the idea, but the leadership abilities of the person spearheading this drive, i am just contributing what i KNOW
so, does josh seem like an effective leader to you (or have the capacity to fulfill that role)?
:mulch:
Io Zeno
Mar 18th, 2007
I already addressed this in the SC thread, Mulch.
And since this whole idea is nothing but that, an idea Josh has, I don’t understand the fuss. It isn’t as if he is starting up an organization in SL with Linden backing or something. It’s just an idea he has. We all had plenty of criticism on it’s merits when he brought it up and made our points. If he decides to go ahead with it, I’ve already made my suggestions as others have. These things have tried and failed before. But I will say this, Josh has always been honestly concerned and willing to put his ass on the line in defense of content creators when their work is ripped off.
It certainly isn’t newsworthy. But neither is the inner workings of a WoW Guild. The Herald. Jeezus.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
“I already addressed this in the SC thread, Mulch.”
links pls
(and make it those cool links that go right to the post in specific, sever links are cool, but not just a thread link pretty please)
:mulch:
Io Zeno
Mar 18th, 2007
Mulch I will try to be civil with you but I am certainly not going to *help* you in your personal war with Josh.
Goodnight. Goodnight Herald readers.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
you did enough, Io
your admission that whatever opinion you gave in whatever SC posts you are referring to would *help* establish joshuas lack of capacity to be in a leadership position says more than enough
i do appreciate it, especially considering that at one time you threatened to kill me (or was it 2 times?)
:mulch:
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
I am not defending Prokofy or saying that you have to do anything to draw attention but I AM saying that Joshua went way out of his way to draw that attention and shouldn’t cry foul when it comes back to him at a level he does not agree with. His many actions speak louder then his prose here. Joshua went out of his way with Prokofy and Anshe to name only two for attention. He obsessed over them in fact this is my point here.
As for the fuss involved as a content creator I would rather not see this begin with him at the helm if it is to become what he envisions, a closed group of trusted creators who buy from each other only. That opens up other concerns as someone already layed out before in this thread.
For another matter Joshua, on further reflection and after doing searches I fail to find Prokofy calling you a rapist. Can you link that for me please as I am uncomfortable that I addressed your post as fact before seeing the evidence.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
I can’t seem to find the link with the screenshot of her website again, but she wrote an entry on her personal blog here:
http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2007/01/why_they_are_ba.html
The original entry said, next to me, “Joshua Nightshade, the attention whore, rapist and psychotic, is banned for stalking me in SL and RL.” My name was hotlinked to my own personal website and it’s just a short jump from someone googling my name and finding the blog of this woman accusing me of some manufactured crime. I took a screenshot of the entry when I reported it to her website host and I posted the screenshot on SC. Prokofy came back and claimed the entry never said that and never had my name on her site and said my screenshot was fake.
However, many people saw her original entry before she edited out what she said:
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=145202&postcount=956
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=145275&postcount=974
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=145235&postcount=966
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=145231&postcount=965
To just name a few. When I find the screenshot from her website I’ll post it.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
And again, I never went out of my way to draw anything. That’s clearly how you’ve interpreted my actions, but you’re wrong. I went out of my way to highlight the bad behavior of Prokofy and Anshe, yes. Not to get pats on the back and thumbs up. Very different.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
“As for the fuss involved as a content creator I would rather not see this begin with him at the helm if it is to become what he envisions, a closed group of trusted creators who buy from each other only. That opens up other concerns as someone already layed out before in this thread.”
Aaand finally, I never envisioned this whatsoever. That’s what Prokofy envisions. I envision a group of people who make a vow to be considerate of one another and not steal from one another and to cooperate with one another. It’s not a closed list. It’s not a feted circle. It’s not “my friends and me.” Everyone is not just welcome but wanted. Have we really reached the point where asking people to be nice to one another inspires mistrust and ulterior motives?
Io Zeno
Mar 18th, 2007
“i do appreciate it, especially considering that at one time you threatened to kill me (or was it 2 times?)
:mulch:”
Surely, it was more than that. You are difficult to keep up with and being your personal assassin is a part-time job.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
“you did enough, Io
your admission that whatever opinion you gave in whatever SC posts you are referring to would *help* establish joshuas lack of capacity to be in a leadership position says more than enough”
You sure do like putting words in people’s mouth, huh?
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
Well, here is a great indication about how josh lies about things, including the “timeline” for this particular webpage
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=195163&postcount=29
“at no point in Cris’ post did he even mention Ryan until Ryan came around and started cursing”
when the reality was, cristiano made this comment here well before ryan got involved:
“Sansarya at least had the integrity to leave the guild after that, whereas Ryan, who was implicit in the whole thing, just went on to lead it and act as business as usual.”
(bolded by me to show the implication that Ryan had no integrity)
all it would take to disprove Josh’s lil lie is to scroll up
and now, get ready for Josh chastising me about “his little mistake in making the sequence of events and cause/effect relationships”
he didnt mean to manipulate perception with it, its not like he was lying, is it?
josh is who josh is and he continues to prove it without a shred of evidence from me
kudos, champ!
and josh is also crying that i am stalking him around the innerwebs!
i just want to remind him that this article is as much about my balls as it about his lack of leadership abilities
and check the comments list, i was here 1st, so who is following who around?
:mulch:
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=195167&postcount=30
maybe it is just that josh thinks reality is subjective, and he can make the call as to when reality applies
either that or he has no scrollbar and can’t scroll up to check the facts and thinks no one else can and see that he is lying
nah, he is just a liar who lies just to lie
:mulch:
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
He didn’t mention Ryan’s credibility. Exactly as I said.
And Ryan should’ve quit. As should’ve all of the other officers. And they all did, the ones with good sense.
Nice try!
Hull
Mar 18th, 2007
Are you people still stuck in secondary school? Have you no humility? Did your elders not teach you that carrying on about personal rows and vendettas in public is counter productive and just downright childish? You don’t have to be shuttled about in a limousine with flash bulbs going off in your face to be maintain even a microscopic level of class. I see not one grain of class from either of the two little boys here who are so starved for attention they simply must bring their rubbish into the public eye wherever they see the opportunity. I hope you don’t carry on like this in your real lives, or you’ll eventually be friendless, unemployable outcasts, if you already aren’t. Nobody likes to put up with (adult) children who toss their toys about the place and pull on each other’s hair constantly like a gaggle of spoiled brats. It just proves that some people cannot act like adults if they don’t have to answer to anyone but themselves. I’m embarrassed for you, and I know not a one of you. Your parents should be embarrassed too. I won’t hold my breath for that, because they obviously had a hand in making you what you are. This is truly Internet Fucktard Theory on parade.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
Hull, with all due respect, Mulch brought this vendetta over here. I did try to address legitimate questions whenever they came up.
victoriak
Mar 18th, 2007
Heya Josh… do you get the impression FFS might be a SC regular and dosen’t want to say who they are.
I even have a pretty good idea who it is….:)
FFS!
Mar 18th, 2007
Erm… I would not classify myself as regular. A tick above lurker possibly. If you want to try your hand at keyboard sleuthing you may Private Message me at the forum and I will certainly confirm it for you if you wish. This will save the general mob scene that tends to take place there when someone plays gotcha. PM away VictoriaK, though since I do not even know who you are you are quite likely wrong. ;O)
Prokofy Neva
Mar 18th, 2007
>Mulch,
>Since you brought the WoW guild’s business into all of this, I will point out that you staged a vote as leader of the guild in which other officers either had to vote out Joshua, or you would leave. They were not allowed to vote whether they wanted him to stay in freely. Sansarya at least had the integrity to leave the guild after that, whereas Ryan, who was implicit in the whole thing, just went on to lead it and act as business as usual. You are the last person who should be criticizing anyone for how they would run a group after you have a fake, secret “vote” to get rid of someone you don’t like. Joshua is many things, and is certainly not perfect, but he is not the pathological liar and untrustworthy person you claim him to be. If anything, he is trusting and open to a fault, and I am proud to have him as a friend. Josh is definitely doing something right to have you and Prokofy as his loudest critics.
>Cristiano
I’ve been content to let the comments take care of this story, as they have in spades, but let me just pause on this one here.
This thread has many rich moments, but chief among them is this gem by The White Robed One. Joshua is indeed a pathological liar, and Cristiano has trouble admitting when he’s done something wrong, and hides behind literalist word-salading. I’m not surprised they are a pair.
What’s funny for the “emergent gameplay” and “ganking” theorists who love to watch all these things — paging Walker! — is that the behaviour in WoW in some silly guild chasing and killing orcs in some game or something is now leveraged and served up as ammunition in the never-ending battle of the old long-since-closed LL forums. Really, this is sociologically rich!
Prokofy Neva
Mar 18th, 2007
She wrote that I am a “rapist” using my real life name, and despite the fact that screenshots were taken of the entry saying this and many, many people said they read it, Prokofy outright lied and said she never wrote it in the first place.
This thread has been richly entertaining — the WoW guild drama is just too, too rich! — but I do have to set the record straight — I’ve already done it in detail on SC back in the day.
I never called Joshua Nightshade a “rapist” or used or linked to his RL name. This is one of his delusions, or more likely one of his manipulative pschotic lies. He claims that typepad.com came in and changed my text, or that I came back to change my text, when the text was always there for people to see. What I said was that he was a pathological liar. I have no need to deny calling someone a name; if they’ve done something like sexually assault someone in SL or RL I might indeed call them a rapist, but I didn’t do that. Instead, Joshua thought he could get some mileage by stirring shit up.
Another funny thing he did was take a statement that I said, “if he comes near me in RL, I will cheerfully strangle him,” which in fact is a figure of speech, and is a reaction to something really sick he did, after he did the busts, and the wierd shit with the demands that I fax him.
He wrote to Cocoanut in world and sent her a notecard with a picture of my RL front door. Then he made up a story that an alt — OMGODZORZ AN ALT RUN SCREAM HELP! *cough* — had contacted him and circulated this door of mine and was going to somehow pin this on the stalker and psychotic Joshua. Well, um, the fact is, it shows every sign of in fact *coming from* the psychotic Joshua. I mean, is that lame or what? Going and taking a picture of somebody’s RL building door and trying to threaten them in SL with it? Like…that’s going to work? Like…even the Lindens will find that a TOS offense?! It was very typical of these histrionic bids for reputational enhancement on his part that he engaged in this outrageously fake thing, trying to make it seem like he, defacer, defiler, abuser, stalker (telling me he saw me in RL with an umbrella when it was raining, etc.) was somehow now Mr. Good Neighbour and Looking Out for Prok by *GASP* letting the Lindens know (!) of this outrageous talking by Somebody Else.
Honestly, it’s comedy gold.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 18th, 2007
>I took a screenshot of the entry when I reported it to her website host and I posted the screenshot on SC. Prokofy came back and claimed the entry never said that and never had my name on her site and said my screenshot was fake.
The report went nowhere; it was fake. I never wrote that; I never changed anything. I said then and I say now: Joshua Nightshade is a narcissistic attention-grabbing psychotic and pathological liar.
“All these people who saw it” consists of…um…Cristiano ROFL.
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
Actually as the above shows there were at least six people, three who aren’t regular posters in SC, who saw the screenshot of you calling me a rapist. So no, much more than just Cris.
And yes, I sent Coco a photo that was sent to me by someone who said he’s collecting a dossier of information on you. I figured coming from Coco you might actually display some sense, but I’ll know better next time. I never said the alt was trying to “pin” anything on me either. He wanted me to help him with information and I told him to fuck off. I don’t really have to argue this either; the account was banned as per the Linden investigation into it.
You’re a troll.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 18th, 2007
No. There's no such thing. I seriously don't need to make up a story if I've called somebody a name. If I call them a name, I don't edit it, I stick by it. If I haven't called them a name, I don't lie about it, I tell the truth: there's no such name, and no such link.
It's called "folie a deux" or "folie a plusieurs" in this case what you all suffer from.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folie_%C3%A0_deux
Joshua Nightshade
Mar 18th, 2007
No, you called me a “name,” realized you’d crossed that line from annoying psycho to criminal malice and tried to save yourself while you thought I didn’t catch it. That’s why you’ve backtracked and are pretending it didn’t happen, because in that one post you opened up a can of worms that a lesser person than I would’ve used to happily shut you up.
Mulch Maker
Mar 18th, 2007
When Prokofy is right, Prokofy is right!
srsly
but Prok, still no love for my nuts?
come on, you know you liked them!
EVERYBODY liked them!
anyway, funny thing, is i am fairly well known as an asshole, much like Josh and Prok
the difference is that i admit it, Prok and Josh deny it and deny, which makes for entertainment
and the best part about this, is josh doesnt make himself look good trying to make me look bad, quite the contrary
he has revealed his true self
so while i know and admit i am an asshole, hell, ill even admit to going out of my way to being an asshole…
but josh and prokofy deny it, and watching them is pure comedy as they both do the most asshole things to prove that they are not assholes
this is raw naked psyche (uncut of course;)
and you have been able to witness it
a couple fo threads have been inspired by this nonsense (and i am referring to josh in ANY leadership position available when i say nonsense)
anyway, here is a quote from Sansarya regarding Josh:
“In my admittedly not qualified to judge opinion, Josh is a psychopath.”
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showpost.php?p=195273&postcount=55
and here is a thread about Joshua’s future senate career:
http://forums.secondcitizen.com/showthread.php?t=10061
anyway josh, its been fun rolling in the mud with ya!
sorry you got a lil dirty and all, but you lowered yourself to me
and in the process, exposed yourself and your leadership abilities
have fun in the “spotlight”
:mulch: