Sign-Extortionist Masons Help Coldwell Banker into Second Life
by prokofy on 23/03/07 at 3:13 pm
Mason and sign extortionist Chrischun Fassbinder, notorious for the Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong signs, and Ancient Shriner, another spinning sign-griefer, bring RL real estate firm Coldwater Banker to SL.
Prokofy Neva, Dept. of Virtual Estate
Oh, no, here we go again. Remember how Philip told us that when big business came to Second Life, that they’d never use big billboards and blight up the landscape? But when he and the other laissez-faire Lindens allowed all these small inworld microbaron businesses to scoop up the 16m2 and 64m2 parcels, and put ugly spinning signs on them set to extortionist prices to “buy back the view,” he probably didn’t imagine that RL big business would ever make direct use of those microbarons in their own projects — and enable them to drive mainland customers to their new RL real estate clients through the devaluation of everyone else’s land.
When I read on CNN that the real-life real-estate company Coldwell Banker was coming to SL, I thought it would be an interesting contribution to observe and not necessarily a death-knell for inworld land businesses. A RL real estate company might bring some insights into the slash-and-burn SL virtual estate climate but might also be willing to learn from those who have learned their trade the hard way on Linden Lab’s laggy servers. While nobody likes to face harsh competition, we already live with that in SL, and hundreds more units on a dozen sims disappear very quickly with the onrush of newbie customers swarming into SL — there likely is enough more than enough business for everybody.
Yet when I read Fortune writer David Kirkpatrick’s coverage of the story, however, I began to see some tell-tale signs that this RL business was making use of biased and even vindictive advisors. The story talked about bringing “order” to the rentals business that it claimed had only a few land barons in it, although SL already has stunning order in sims run by hundreds of agents from Anshe Chung to D’Alliez to Azure and even to my own modest Ravenglass. “We thought we’d try to bring real estate to the masses,” a Coldwell exec is quoted as saying — as if he was coming into unsettled territory. Why try to set barons against each other? And don’t in fact hundreds of rental agents all over SL, not just a few land barons, bring “real estate to the masses already”?
Landing at the Coldwell Banker HQ in Ranchero and peeking under the hood, I suddenly realized what was up. Coldwell Banker didn’t come in without baggage, nor start with a clean slate and good will toward the community: they chose two of the most notorious, cut-throat and rude extortionist sign-griefers in the business as their landholders and managers. I was in shock. Ancient Shriner, an avatar who also runs the secretive “SL Masonic Lodge No. 1″ and Chrischun Fassbinder, owner of the infamous “Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong” signs, are running the Coldwell Banker operation. Clunk. Another flat-footed arrival of a RL company into SL.
Modern toilet school of architecture build in Ranchero.
Flying around the cold blue glass and steel vanity headquarters for Coldwell Banker, owned by the Icehouse Land Holding group of Ancient Shriner, I was filled with dismay. Why don’t these companies do their homework?! Ancient Shriner was there in person to sneer at me at tell me I should be grateful he didn’t ban me — his nasty, smug and self-satisfied comments were the kind of thing I expect from inworld business always — but RL business is supposed to be above all that.
Mysterious microbaron Ancient Shriner.
Coldwell Banker in RL doesn’t have any reputation for blighting communities, extorting neighbours to buy back their view by placing ugly advertising, flipping land by night or cutting it up smaller to hawk it faster, or anything of the sort. It strikes me as one of those typical, bland, big, but efficient real estate companies that helps a lot of people buy and sell homes.
Little Masonic lodges on the hillside made of ticky-tacky.
And for that matter, the RL Masons and the Shriners, though fodder for all sorts of “tinfoil hat conspiracies” have good reputations in RL communities. The Shriners are noted for their fund-raising drives to help disabled children and their hospitals, not for making huge, atrocious, spinning signs driving everyone around them nuts, or screaming at a neighbour objecting to plywood piling up on their lawn and requesting autoreturn that he must be a “communist” if they tell other people WTF they should do on their land. No, the Masons in communities all over SL are leaders in business and volunteer work, not griefers. They are never associated with crime, shady busy dealings, harassment, and certainly never extortion and blighting of the outrageous kind you see in SL with these microbaron signs.
Part of the worldwide conspiracy?
Perhaps there is some ideological affinity or networking that brought Coldwell Banker and Ancient Shriner together around the shared mysticism surrounding Neal Stephenson’s Snowcrash (from where the character of “Mr. Lee” and his franchulate “Hong Kong” is taken); perhaps it is a mere happenstance. We’re not likely to ever know, as both Ancient Shriner and Chrischun Fassbinder, while heavily involved in land flipping, renting, building, and financial operations of all sorts, including the stock exchanges, are not very public, and don’t post on forums or speak at public meetings or keep blogs to my knowledge.
A purple haze of mystery surrounds this land deal.
A most curious feature of the Coldwell operation was something I’ve only seen once before inworld in two years: purple land, i.e. land ostensibly still owned by Governor Linden with auction ID numbers, that in fact remained purple while owned already by Ancient Shriner’s group. This is most odd indeed. A parcel can remain purple after you’ve won the bid, and show that the land should be sold to you — but it can’t physically remain purple after you’ve taken it and put it on your tier and in your group — at least under the ordinary “laws of nature” of SL.
One knowledgeable land baron speculated that LL may have made some arrangement with Coldwell Banker to give them a break on tier beyond the ordinary 10 percent bonus for grouped land, but could only do it this awkward way. That seems unlikely, but as a tabloid writer I’m going to speculate heavily that there’s something “up” here with this curious purple land. LL is probably only too glad to think up some caper to break the backs of land barons. They want to sell their land at a profit, but they resent those who buy it and then flip it to make a profit themselves. They want a free land market to create a simulation of real life, but they personally have disdain for the land business and Philip himself would be happy if 512 ms at identical prices were just endlessly rolled out. He cares much more about “content” and “value-add”.
Modern RL efficiency to the chaotic mainland?
David Kirkpatrick, the prominent journalist for Fortune to whom the Lindens vouchsafed an embargoed exclusive notice of their plan to go open-source earlier this year, usually writes much more informedly of Second Life; he probably just failed to do the basic right-click “about land” check that you always need to do in Second Life, where the game isn’t so much “follow the money” as it is “follow the land holding group”.
Curiously, he also fished up a quote from Paul Carr, who has a book coming out soon on Second Life. “It’s true that Second Life real estate transactions are daunting and confusing,” Carr is quoted as saying. While Carr was careful to say that the problem wasn’t Anshe Chung or famous land barons, he implied that land-scamming is far more prevalent than it is (he must read the official resident answer forums too much). Trying to sum up the SL experience, he claimed there were “people who offer to sell you the Golden Gate Bridge. For every legitimate real estate broker there are a thousand scammers.” The Herald has reported on exactly one island scammer and heard about another; there just aren’t that many in the business, even if you count every fly-by-night wannabee who tries to get a newbie to sell their first land for $1024 (and that problem is now completely history with the end of subsidized first land).
Kirkpatrick describes Carr as predicting that with Second Life populated almost entirely by casual and newly-arrived users, a trusted brand that stands behind virtual land transactions will be welcomed by many. Yet many inworlders have become utterly exasperated with “Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong” which is everywhere blighting and devauling land — causing move-outs, sell-outs, and lost business. Chrischun is infamous for never accepting any offer to trade, mitigate, come down in price, etc. He sticks up his identical price of $9345 everywhere, in the middle of prime waterfront, on a lonely mountain where probably two people click on it a month, in the middle of a grassland sim — anywhere he can grab a 16m2. Unfortunately, some pay to buy back their view, prompting him to gloat that there is a “market” for his sign space.
(I’ll save some of my choice transcripts from these guys for my own blog, as the Herald has had a lot of inworld drama lately.)
Oops, back to stone-mason Sunday school at the temple, guys!
Says Carr, “Coldwell’s properties will appeal to those who want to live in a virtual world that looks like the most banal regions of the real one – suburban tracts filled with uninspired architecture. The one exception, in the Gorbash region, offers modern hillside homes with a view of a dirigible dock, a pirate ship docked in a nearby cove, and the “for sale” signs put up by real estate speculators that endlessly dot Second Life’s landscape. And even the suburban tracts lie next to a casino. (Gambling is a hot Second Life activity.)”
A visit to Gorbash revealed a humorous scene of dozens of identical miniature Masonic Temples, replete with goofy symbolism and strangely bad texture and seam jobs, not befitting of the world-famous Order of Builders. No matter. Everything in SL sells; just put a price tag on it!
The invasion of big business has been made far more annoying than it had to be by their choice of partners with bad reputations who have harmed the quality of Second Life for thousands of people. But as Kirkpatrick notes, the juggernaut of Second Life rolls on. Perhaps if the Coldwell account goes well, the RL businessmen with more experience and good judgement than the inworld pretenders they’ve chosen as partners might persuade their new virtual pals to roll up their obnoxious sign-griefing microbaron empire and behave like good neighbours.
Urizenus
Mar 23rd, 2007
Holy shit!
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 23rd, 2007
You’re entirely too nice about all this, Prok.
How could that person POSSIBLY say that “for every legitimate real estate broker there are a thousand scammers.”
And this is to say NOTHING about the Coldwell Banker press release stating that they are going to come in and offer things at GOOD prices, as compared to what people can get and where they can live now, much LESS compare the whole thing to swooping in to save the day in San Francisco after the earthquake!
OUTRAGEOUS.
On the plus side, all their stuff looks crappy.
And I’d like to know the answer to the question I have been asking for MONTHS now, that nobody in Electric Sheep or anyone else has ever answered, which is whether these corporations are getting price breaks on land that we are NOT.
We already know the universities do. What sort of deals do the corporations get?
I would like to know any Linden involvement in this as well.
coco
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 23rd, 2007
They basically called Adam Zaius and Nexus Nash SCAMMERS in that press release. Along with you, and all the people who buy my houses and break their backs building wonderful little neighborhoods with them for other people to rent from, and everyone and anyone else who has provided land, rental, and housing services SINCE SL BEGAN.
Which tangentially includes ME, come to think of it.
And when I say you are being too nice, I mean you are being too nice about this whole corporate takeover, not just this one instance.
There’s no way in hell that corporations advertising outside goods and services should be treated the same as they are us (much less given price breaks we don’t get, if they do!), because they are NOT like us.
They are sponsors, period, and should be charged accordingly.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 23rd, 2007
I am trying to clarify what this odd purple land issue means, and whether the Lindens did cut them a break. I don’t know.
As for being “too nice,” well, I’m at a loss for words…
Nacon
Mar 23rd, 2007
Yeah… saw this one coming, watching their development with their houses and what not… Honestly, it’ll be a good humor to see if they aren’t getting enough to fill those homes by the end of the month…and month after that.
It’s just another humor grow-and-fail business movement to stand.
Khamon
Mar 23rd, 2007
But are they gonna help me fill my left over 11ksm worth of tier at a good price? Compared to what, the going 35L/sm ha ha ha.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 24th, 2007
Khamon, don’t be ridiculous. You could have filled that tier long ago with $13/ or $14/m meter land if nothing else, and at least not be carrying empty tier. To be sure, that’s only $40 a month at the discount level, and not worth then sheding lots of money and tiers over the tier just to fill it — you’d be spending a minimum of $575 US to fill that at $14/m or something, and then you start to wonder, but why don’t I wait and see if the $1000 sims come back on the auction.
They probably won’t. And meanwhile you could get some nice new waterfront on a class 5 sim and be done with it. Or keep looking for mainland bargains, who knows…
Khamon
Mar 24th, 2007
Or defect to some other estate, you forgot to list defection to some other estate.
forseti svarog
Mar 24th, 2007
“And I’d like to know the answer to the question I have been asking for MONTHS now, that nobody in Electric Sheep or anyone else has ever answered, which is whether these corporations are getting price breaks on land that we are NOT.”
Cocoa, didn’t know you had asked the question: Electric Sheep and it’s clients pay the same prices as everyone else. Actually that’s always been something I’ve respected about LL, that with the exception of special breaks for education, everyone gets treated the same whether you’re an individual or representing a group of thousands; whether a small business or a big one.
I had someone IM me yesterday about that purple land and their questions about if Coldwell Banker was undercutting the market, etc, but Electric Sheep has had no involvement with the project and I won’t speculate without researching the facts.
On land scamming, there are lots of very respectable businesses out there that are quite trustworthy — like anshe, otherland, ravenglass, azure, d’alliez and I’m sure many more. It’s not like SL was a den of sin and dishonesty until an RL brand swoops in to rescue the people. I haven’t read the press release however to see how Coldwell is really spinning it.
I remember when we (ESC) left an island open for a couple weeks before we turned to a project, and some jackass “rented” it to a ton of hapless newbies. Then we showed up and these poor people had to get booted. I’m sure they complained to LL but I doubt it went anywhere. There are lots of people trying to get away with a quick scam in SL, just like there are in RL. It’s a fact of life. You have to admit that SL is very “buyer beware”. This is not a problem that will go away with Coldwell Banker in SL.
Cory Edo
Mar 24th, 2007
Coco, I seem to remember answering that question for you on other forums a couple times now. The answer has always been the same – LL gives breaks for educational sims, and that’s it.
Ordinal Malaprop
Mar 24th, 2007
Forseti: the press release rather gives the impression that SL, previous to the oh-so-gracious intervention of this US real-estate company of whom I’ve never heard before, was a den of iniquity and corruption:
—
“Rather than having to negotiate for top dollar with Second Life ‘land barons,’ users can visit our virtual office and interact with our virtual sales associate to buy homes from Coldwell Banker at reasonable rates,” Young continued. “Ironically, Colbert Coldwell, and later Benjamin Banker, founded our company after seeing similar practices in 1906 San Francisco. Coldwell Banker was founded just 18 weeks after the earthquake largely because our founders saw the need for ethics and integrity in assisting victims of the devastation who were being preyed upon by unsavory businesspeople. We want to do the same thing in Second Life: give residents the opportunity to participate in fair and reasonable real estate transactions.”
—
I would submit that that is not really the best way for a company to go about things.
This paragraph also worries me a little:
—
For those participants who do make a purchase, they can do so using the V-Commerce function, a first in Second Life and unique to Coldwell Banker, in which the avatar can touch a virtual palm-scanner that will automatically provide Coldwell Banker with the buyer’s qualification status and simplify the purchasing process.
—
Now, what exactly does that mean? It’s either something trivial or something dubious….
I don’t think this particular entry into SL has been handled well at all to be frank.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 24th, 2007
Cory, I don’t remember you answering that question for me.
Moreover, I’m not very happy with you right now.
coco
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 24th, 2007
Thanks, Foreseti.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 24th, 2007
Forseti, I really have to take exception with what you’re saying.
>Cocoa, didn’t know you had asked the question: Electric Sheep and it’s clients pay the same prices as everyone else. Actually that’s always been something I’ve respected about LL, that with the exception of special breaks for education, everyone gets treated the same whether you’re an individual or representing a group of thousands; whether a small business or a big one.
What you fail to admit and perceive and realize is that Electric Sheep, like a few other of these “Metaversal Sherpas” got a really big head start and a boost. They have certified FIC membership, including yourself. For years, they ruled the forums, deterring and even ensuring the punishment of criticism. Some companies like yours even signed NDAs. You formed special, connected and feted relationships with Lindens and got steered to the media. Can you deny that Aimee Weber was not the mascot of Second Life, featured on the web page, and constantly steered to the media? Of course not! And how do you think FlipperPA gets in Business Week? That’s just Business Week researching cold? Of course not.
Technically, sure, LL and you can say “Everyone is treated the same way.” “There are no special deals.” But on the conference circuit, on those special trips to the Lab with SL Views, in real life meet-ups, etc. etc. the connections are made. How is it that something like SLCC II gets made, which has Stroker Serpentine or Cube Linden and his teledildonics featured? That just “happens” because of the “demonstratable merit” of these people or their products? Of course not. It’s Jeska Linden and her friends, Flipper and his friends, Cube and his friends, etc. etc. Every arena of human life has such phenomenon. To pretend it isn’t the case in SL, and that LL is some kind of special new creation that is always equal and fair is ridiculous. In fact, the DENIAL of this is one of the biggest reasons it is AS UNACCOUNTABLE as it is!!!!
>I had someone IM me yesterday about that purple land and their questions about if Coldwell Banker was undercutting the market, etc, but Electric Sheep has had no involvement with the project and I won’t speculate without researching the facts.
It isn’t about “undercutting”. If anything, with $20 houses, with rules about 30-days, with “palm reading” and other wierd features that sounds like a massive data scrape for long-term aggressive marketing, it may not be any bargain. Doesn’t sound like any discount operation to me, but is trying to place itself as slightly upscale. The service they claim they will provide costs money. And the economics of rentals on the mainland, as everybody knows (or is about to find out) are abysmal. The performance of the sims, the problems with griefing and views, the Lindens arbitrary actions and surprise downloads and whatnot — all of these conspire mainland business to be a very, very scrappy affair. There’s only one reason CB and their aggressive and nasty front men are on the mainland: to gain visibility. It’s a 3-D streaming ad, not a housing service.
>On land scamming, there are lots of very respectable businesses out there that are quite trustworthy — like anshe, otherland, ravenglass, azure, d’alliez and I’m sure many more. It’s not like SL was a den of sin and dishonesty until an RL brand swoops in to rescue the people. I haven’t read the press release however to see how Coldwell is really spinning it.
Um, well, we can all send you the press release if you don’t believe us, and thanks for the um endorsement, but your notion of land scamming is really skewed.
>I remember when we (ESC) left an island open for a couple weeks before we turned to a project, and some jackass “rented” it to a ton of hapless newbies. Then we showed up and these poor people had to get booted. I’m sure they complained to LL but I doubt it went anywhere. There are lots of people trying to get away with a quick scam in SL, just like there are in RL. It’s a fact of life. You have to admit that SL is very “buyer beware”. This is not a problem that will go away with Coldwell Banker in SL.
I don’t see it, Forseti, and I’m down in the weeds much more than you. You’ve had exactly one scam experience. I’ve had exactly 2 that I can think of in the last 6 months, with some dimwit declaring himself “The Mayor of Ravenglass” and going around Brown and trying to collect “taxes” from frightened newbies, and somebody else trying to put invisiprims over rental boxes — but they got caught.
It’s vastly overstated. Thousands upon thousands of rental transactions go on every day in Second Life. It’s a nation of landlords. There are really thousands of landlords, you just have NO IDEA. I find little rental companies with half a sim or 2 sims all over, constantly, and trade news and tips with them. There are mom and pop operations with part of a sim rented out all over. It’s the chief form of business to help people sustain themselves. And that’s precisely why the Lindens’ scorning of it, and the actual animosity toward land barons one so often feels from visible forums posters, the FIC, and certain Lindens, is really really out of place.
Economic Mip
Mar 24th, 2007
I personally only found one building there which I would ever consider owning (out of four sims that is not very impressive). Would I go for the fifteen minutes of sales pitches with their realtors to get it? Hardly, in that amount of time, I had found the builder of the property, and figured out I could get it and the land for about half the cost of what Coldwell is planning on charging.
Forseti did forget to point out that the “small Italian firm” -Gabetti- is located in the Sheep Island area, although they do not appear to be selling anything.
Panda
Mar 25th, 2007
“Of course not. It’s Jeska Linden and her friends, Flipper and his friends, Cube and his friends, etc. etc. Every arena of human life has such phenomenon.”
The clue here, Prok, is that you have no friends. Your screaming hysterics show anyone with half-a-brain what a conceited, obsessive and rabid person you are. You spew forth your neo-communism while hiding behind “capitalism”. Nobody likes a hypocrite, much less an obsessive, vindictive hypocrite with paranoid delusions and the social skills of a 6 year old playground bully.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 25th, 2007
Panda, right, and that’s why they don’t care for anymous fucktards like yourself who troll on forums.
forseti svarog
Mar 25th, 2007
Prok,
I was talking about pricing equality, not the issue of overall fairness. For the zillionth time: one doesn’t need special favors or fairness to succeed — that’s a nonsense excuse and red herring. If one waits for the world to be fair before doing anything, you might as well put out a deck chair and watch the market pass you by.
I’ve had many more scamming experiences in SL but I agree that it’s a minority and that was my point. That press release is clearly playing to the current angle journalists are obsessing about right now (sin!), but is culturally insensitive and ignorant.
Frankly, there’s probably a bunch of companies trying to get into SL hoping for the PR buzz of late 2006. Well, that was late 2006 and it has moved on. We’re in a different phase of PR (we had the “prop it up” phase, and now we get the “wack it down” phase). I’m glad the easy PR has moved on so the people involved — by and large — are more focused on the longer term challenge of building and offering value. Or so we can hope.
Panda
Mar 25th, 2007
“Panda, right, and that’s why they don’t care for anymous fucktards like yourself who troll on forums.”
Ah, but Prok, that’s another thing you rant to hell and high heaven about, and conveniently ignore when it suits you. You had no problem praising “SL Newbie” a few articles back even though s/he was just as anymous (sic) as me. You ma’am, are a cretin and a hypocrite.
Cocoanut Koala
Mar 25th, 2007
Coldwell Banker doesn’t realize that they have hired a couple of very nasty guys to do this project for them.
Now that I know that, from my own experience with these two on the Coldwell Banker property (being verbally abused because I asked how to get to the houses), it makes me think Coldwell Banker also got their “background” from these same guys. I think the things they said in that awful press release were just things these guys told them.
I don’t think Coldwell Banker has any idea how much damage these “representatives” are doing to their brand, and will continue to do.
coco
whatever
Mar 26th, 2007
FFS, we don’t need this shit in SL. We come to SL to get away from rl shit. I for one am boycotting any rl company that comes into SL.
David Kirkpatrick
Mar 26th, 2007
Interesting article. I am the author of the Fortune piece. You prompt a few questions and a couple comments.
First, what exactly are you saying I would have discovered had I right-clicked on Coldwell’s land? You’re saying my story was uninformed and I’m not sure exactly what you object to.
I do think there are several noteworthy aspects of Coldwell’s entry that are new for Second Life:
-That a trusted well-known brand will stand behind real estate transactions. This is considerably different than Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong and I don’t understand your point there. Real brands matter because customer reactions have consequences that companies like Coldwell Banker have to take into consideration in their behavior.
-That Coldwell has committed to staffing its office regularly (specifically 9am-8pm EST). I do think this is important and not enough done at all in-world.
Your complaints about Carr’s quote are legitimate. But there are his views, not mine, even if I should have quoted comments from others. I was limited because of Coldwell’s embargo on the news, however. Mostly this was a news story.
Fyi, the software and content developer of the Coldwell Banker properties was Code4Software.
One correction: The criticism of the style and originality of the Coldwell properties that you attribute to Carr came from me, not him.
Finally, while I find such dialogue fascinating and indicative of the amazing passions that Second Life arouses, I also find it curious that you all are using only your avatar names and not, in addition, your real ones. That is not transparency. My own view is that even in Second Life it would be far preferable if people had the option of using their real names. If we want online experiences that are based on honesty and trust that is an elementary first step.
Thanks.
wondering
Mar 26th, 2007
My guess is Coldwell Banker did not set out to work with companies that would lend them a bad name. So I have to ask: what is the most efficient inworld way to check up on a company?
Prokofy Neva
Mar 26th, 2007
For the zillionth time: one doesn’t need special favors or fairness to succeed — that’s a nonsense excuse and red herring
Because you are a *beneficiary* of the fetting and connections, Forseti, you can’t see this point — probably ever. People succeed on their own, by merit — sure, happens all the time. Does it happen in SL? No. They succeed by sucking up to the right divas and the right Lindens and the right powers-that-be.
Is that “life?” sure it’s “life”. But what’s wrong with it then? It’s especially skewed, wacky, and unjust in SL because there’s no recourse. There’s no internally free media; you are punished if you are too critical on the official blog. There’s no accountable and representative government. Decisions get made all the time by a tiny group of people (the Lindens) influenced by their friends (people like you).
What can we say, but that the Lindens, given that they run it because it’s theirs, need better friends. A bigger rolladex. A wider perspective. Who needs voice put in? Not anyone who actually logs in every day and pays most of the tier — collectively. Voice is only needed by a minority to show off SL as a “business platform”.
and so on — I’ve cited all the examples many time. Having inside connections to succeed isn’t the worse thing; even claiming that people FIRST succeed and THEN get connected isn’t at issue; it’s that anyone who *is* connected can then destroy others so rapidly and fully without recourse.
Like removing telehubs. Like putting in voice. Like trying to get traffic removed. Like 100 other features that are put first, because somebody needs them first (hiding avatars online) while other things, that people do need, like inworld transactions, are removed arbitrarily without discussion.
I would have expected that you’d admit that you were wrong by now, Forseti. We had this debate about whether corporations would add housing and services for individuals to their menu, and you denied it up and down when you put in Starwood. I kept saying in 100 places, including 3pointd.com and such, that OF COURSE these companies would figure out to come and offer avatar services. And so they have. Can you admit you were wrong now?
Prokofy Neva
Mar 26th, 2007
>You had no problem praising “SL Newbie” a few articles back even though s/he was just as anymous (sic) as me
The problem isn’t being anonymous, the problem is using anonymity to be a trolling fucktard *shrugs*.
urizenus
Mar 26th, 2007
Hi David, thanks for dropping in. Brave of you too.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 27th, 2007
>Interesting article. I am the author of the Fortune piece. You prompt a few questions and a couple comments.
Hi David, thanks for dropping by. You’re not the problem; but you do need to report the story better. And while that may be very hard to do if you aren’t inworld a lot, and can’t realistically be expected to, if someone points out the truth of the situation, they shouldn’t be getting a reprimand.
>First, what exactly are you saying I would have discovered had I right-clicked on Coldwell’s land? You’re saying my story was uninformed and I’m not sure exactly what you object to.
You would discover that it is not Coldwell Banker that owns the land, David. The ways and means of ownership and reputation and groups in SL matter. You would have discovered that Coldwell Banker, like a good number of companies, didn’t have their own group, their own people, or even hired hands who they could discipline presumably and exercise some kind of quality-control over. Instead, they became *heavily* reliant on a metaversal development company with a bad inworld reputation, on (to us) anonymous, unaccountable avatars, in ways that have proven disastrous for their reputation among residents.
They can only rely on clueless newbies to think well of them; everyone else will be utterly jaded looking at the spectacle of a RL company coming into SL through the services of a discredited microbaron outfit that extorts people.
Like others, CB became so reliant, that they don’t even own the land that their company is touting! Instead, that land is owned by a group called Icehouse Land Holdings showing only Ancient Shriner as the officer; Chrischun Fassbinder is also involved in the caper.
This is terribly, terribly risky, aside from everything else; as anyone who has built in the inworld economy can tell you, if a developer commissions a mall and doesn’t buy the build, and doesn’t control every facet of the group that owns the land, he is screwed. At any time the architect can — and does — walk away with the build. The understanding you have with them, even involving payment or letting them use the land for their business in exchange for the build can unravel at any time — and does.
It’s kind of a miracle that there hasn’t been any major scandal (yet) from a metaversal company, really screwing and embarassing a big RL corporation. Developer companies, after all, are a separate entity with separate avatars that those big companies do not control, who have paid for the accounts and own the land technically as far as LL is concerned.
It’s become the norm for big companies to let these sherpas handle every detail, even remaining owners of land and builds. It’s an accident going somewhere to happen; and this story is an example.
Coldwell Banker, like some of the more sophisticated companies in SL, needs to do their homework, buy their land with their own avatars they run. My God, David, if moms of school-children can learn how to make a group, put avatars in it, buy land, and stick a build on it, so can sophisticated RL companies who have marketing/graphics/IT people on their staff. They don’t need to be paying the fantastic sums they are paying to people who lead them around by the nose.
>I do think there are several noteworthy aspects of Coldwell’s entry that are new for Second Life:
>-That a trusted well-known brand will stand behind real estate transactions. This is considerably different than Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong and I don’t understand your point there. Real brands matter because customer reactions have consequences that companies like Coldwell Banker have to take into consideration in their behavior.
David? You really are just not getting it here. Would you please just *go into Second Life and fly around?* Can I please take you on a tour??? You haven’t seen these griefer signs I’m talking about??? It’s spelled out in my article in lurid detail; I’ve covered it in the past too (http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2005/12/sign_in_the_wat.html). IM me and I will give you a tour.
Coldwell Banker *sure has hell* better take into consideration the brand they bought in SL: they bought a discredited, griefing, extortionist ugly brand.
*The same people who are working for Coldwell Banker are the ones who have the ugly Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong and other signs out, many of them set to sale for extortionist prices or blighting the view with large, bright spinning boxes*.
I’m not making some metaphorical statement here saying that Coldwell’s own logo sign is like Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong; I’m saying literally that the guys who work for Coldwell, who are their developers and managers, are the ones devaluing other people’s land with blight and extortion in the literal signs saying Mr. Lee’s Hong Kong as the chief form of sign extortion in SL.
>-That Coldwell has committed to staffing its office regularly (specifically 9am-8pm EST). I do think this is important and not enough done at all in-world.
That doesn’t impress me, David, if the people doing this are THESE people. My God, they are just plain rude bastards. We’ve all been experiencing this from them for years, literally. They are among the most aggressive and inconsiderate in SL. Already they’ve shown their true colours when people have come to ask about CB. CB needs to find new partners.
>Your complaints about Carr’s quote are legitimate. But there are his views, not mine, even if I should have quoted comments from others. I was limited because of Coldwell’s embargo on the news, however. Mostly this was a news story.
Why are you attributing to me, some sort of attribution to you? The problem isn’t that your subject’s views are confused with your own; the problem is that you selected for your talking heads people who have no track record or identity on this issue. Why? How? Google Carr, and there’s little about him of note except that he has a book coming out (Has anyone ever heard of him?). He’s not a recognized expert on virtual economies and the land market. Where are the 1000 land scammers he’s exaggeratedly talking about?
We are hugely sensitive to land scammers at the Herald and report them constantly — we have exactly one story about an island scammer and one some time ago about new land farmers. It’s not what he imagines at all.
It’s often the case that reporters doing a quick story like this pick Ted Castranova — who doesn’t really come in SL either, but at least has been around a long time thinking about the issues. But you didn’t bother to come to the people in this world who already actually run the real estate. And that’s not even me, as my company is small, or me as a Herald reporter; there are people like Adam Zaius, if you felt Anshe Chung was overdone, who could have given a very competent take on every aspect of CB’s entry.
It’s just typical of a lot of media coverage of SL, that we at the Herald object to strenuously: ignoring the people who already live and work here, and featuring the people only making a day trip.
>Fyi, the software and content developer of the Coldwell Banker properties was Code4Software.
David, FYI right back at you, this company Code4software is owned and operated by Ancient Shriner. It’s *that very company and avatars we’re complaining about*. Ancient Shriner is the avatar who owns Icehouse Land Holding, David. I’ve correctly diagnosed CB’s builders in world — and I don’t deserve any reprimands or correctios here, when you haven’t right-clicked on this avatar running the Coldwell Banker caper in SL, and seen that these groups *are all run by the same person*.
I really don’t see why I’m even getting any reprimand here at all– you seem unwilling to grasp that the company that Coldwell Banker chose to run their operations in Second Life has a bad reputation inworld for doing the very things that CB claims they need to come into SL to fix — being rapacious land barons.
That’s a pretty basic element of this story.
>One correction: The criticism of the style and originality of the Coldwell properties that you attribute to Carr came from me, not him.
I don’d understand what correction you’re talking about here, and you may be referring to another poster. I made it clear that Carr made the quote about the 1000 land scammers and selling the Golden Gate Bridge. So it’s inappropriate again to be issuing reprimands.
Each of the four appearances of your name in this article makes it clear that you are reporting a story, and that others are making the judgements. My critique of your reporting is merely that you didn’t go inworld, right-click on the land, right-click on the avatars, and recognize that these folks are the very ones griefing up the mainland.
>Finally, while I find such dialogue fascinating and indicative of the amazing passions that Second Life arouses, I also find it curious that you all are using only your avatar names and not, in addition, your real ones. That is not transparency. My own view is that even in Second Life it would be far preferable if people had the option of using their real names. If we want online experiences that are based on honesty and trust that is an elementary first step.
Well, David, tell your Linden friends not to charge $150 *US* per year to get your real name?! Or $1000 if you are a corporation wanting 100 names? And that’s a new feature, only recently made available. You *can’t* get a subscription and just sign your real name — have you got one and have you figured this out?
In many other games and worlds, you can use your real name instantly, as part of the regular subscription, including a simpler world like The Sims Online. You CAN’T use your real life on Second Life, David, unless you just happen to get lucky and your particular last name happens to flash by right when you are subscribing — very unlikely. You are FORCED to chose a false name — or pay $150 US, which is a lot to be paying on top of the expense of land.
It’s not OUR idea to have these goofy names, but the Lindens’ concept. Therefore slamming at us for having characters and avatars with these goofy names is misplaced and unfair.
Some people go around and make their avatars and RL names linked in various places, on blogs, etc. But experience has shown in abundance that in this situation, where the Lindens pinned these fake names on us AND there are numerous people who WANT to be anonymous and behave with impunity, those who DO use their RL names are merely opening themselves up to griefing by these anonymous asstards.
Google me, David. My name in RL is Catherine A. Fitzpatrick. This connection was long ago established everywhere and always, and even is grounds for constant griefing and ridicule. You really, really came to the wrong address with this one; I’m even stalked in RL and griefers even send me pictures of my doorway in RL, and even call me at home because while they can remain anonymous Internet griefing fucktards, I, as a person who *has* given out their name is an open target.
Can you appreciate that?
I’d like to see you apply those same rigorous stands you’re applying to me, who is publishing in the Herald, to Ancient Shriner and Chrischun Fassbinder, two avatars who have caused untold losses of thousands of US dollars with their extortion and griefing and blight of SL, who have never published a single statement about what they are doing, and never linked their avatar names to RL. Coldwell Banker has hooked up with them. Take your demands to Coldwell Banker, and to Code4software.
My request to you was to research the story more thoroughly –to see the real story behind the entry of these big companies, how they become dependent on the metaversal sherpas, how they are led astray (unless they are in fact consciously applauding the griefing and extortion these two are engaged in), how they listened to bad advisers who vilified the land barons of SL merely in order to up their own ante in the most disgusting way.
Try to see it as we do from the ground up: this CB project is achieved by two people who first made their SL fortunes by exorting sales at outrageous prices — $9345 Lindens for 16 m2 is outrageous even in the most bubbly of markets ($584/m vs. 30 or 50/m as the absolute highest of high-end prices)– to force people to buy back their view. Their ugly, spinning signs blight many a sim — forcing people to flee to the islands — or, as we shall see, to managed communities such as Coldwell Banker is about to run.
Coldwell Banker has some interesting concepts to try; it’s not about being against a RL company, David, and don’t mistake it as the natives bitching about the loss of their own business.
It’s that this entry is made *by deliberately chosing one set of avatars with bad reputations, vaunting them at the expense of others who have been harmed by these two*. It fuels that gleeful and vindictive cut-throat spirit of SL that we have come to hate.
I’m sorry you can’t see this. You will.
Note to Uri: why the suck-up? That’s not how you talk to the Crayonistas.
Prokofy Neva
Mar 27th, 2007
>My guess is Coldwell Banker did not set out to work with companies that would lend them a bad name. So I have to ask: what is the most efficient inworld way to check up on a company?
It starts with a right-click on the land and an examination of the land group; it stands with a right-click on the avatar and a perusal of his groups. That’s the minimum. People living and working in Second Life know the reputations and associations of these groups.
Mudkips Acronym
Mar 27th, 2007
TOO LONG DIDN’T READ
Panda
Mar 27th, 2007
“The problem isn’t being anonymous, the problem is using anonymity to be a trolling fucktard *shrugs*.”
So, Prok, responsibility, transparency, those words only mean something when someone says something negative about you? Hypocrite.