Here Becomes More Like There
by prokofy on 24/04/07 at 11:21 am
Prokofy Neva, Dept. of Worlds, Planets, Multiverses, Simulated Proofs of Concepts, and Badly-Thought-Through Soviet Central Committee Planning by Game Companies
Once again, without any real public discussion, Linden Lab took one more step closer to becoming like its evidently envied competitor There today, as it instituted a new “Certification” system to issue what amount to licenses to top, skilled creators, putting them at a pinnacle of privilege in the inworld market of goods and services.
The online community There is often blasted for having a clearance process for developers to submit content. Now residents in SL, if they want to appear as “company-approved” and “possessing the top, acknowledged skills” will have to become “certified” in a process that will be run by 4 Lindens and and still-to-be-determined group of residents fanboyz who can sign up fast enough on the wiki.
This system is likely to generate enormous amounts of controversy, but there will be “no place to put it,” as the forums comments are likely to be locked; the wikis are likely to be moderated, with discussion content (like my initial protest there) likely to be wiped as “not positive,” and the blog will likely either tap out at 100 comments claiming a “wordpress glitch” or will simply be removed by Lindens.
The four Lindens in charge of the program are Glenn Linden, who is already known for running the elite developers’ community insiders’ list; a new Linden named “Heretic Linden” who represents if anything, not heresy, but company conformism with this program; Blue Linden, who manages the Teen Grid but also now the “volunteer system” (although this brief is unclear, given the removal of Live Help); and Eric Linden, one of the longest-running Lindens with viral marketing virtual-world cred as the author or owner of most trees and other Governor Linden builds in Second Life, who is already known for other FIC institutionalizations like the Bedazzled contract for Wells Fargo and the making of machinima such as Bells and Spurs.
The residents who will run it are not yet clear, though dozens have rushed to sign up including SL Viewsmaster Oz Spade, IVM builder Hiro Pendragon, SLCC organizer FlipperPA Peregrine, and other FIC regulars.
While some will welcome the system as representing a much-needed quality control for the world, the system poses serious questions not only about openness for creativity inworld and the free market of goods and services, but the Lindens’ real intentions about “getting out of governance” when in fact, they’re instituting a quisling/overlord system with a program that certifies what are likely to be their long-time pets as “the most skilled”.
The immediate result of this “certification” is to create a control on the market, where some residents will get to have “Goodhousekeeping Seals of Approval” on their products as “certified” builders and scripters, and others will be unable to get Linden Lab boost to their marketing unless they submit to this system, likely to spawn various sycophantic “certifying agencies” who pass the first round of skills credentialling.
The system runs against the long-time claims of Linden Lab to be facilitating “your world/your imagination” unlike other games and worlds by encouraging user content, because they have finally ended the fiction that amateur content can be as good as professional, or credentialed content.
Currently, as the platform still allows people to upload the elements needed for creativity and sell them regardless of whether they are “approved” or “credentialled,” the Linden-induced “certification” seal may in fact come to signify conformism and lack of innovation, and may actually signal buyers in the market that they are dealing with the fanboyz club of content creators. This will enhance sales for some, but could inhibit them for others.
“Linden Lab is developing certification for the use of key Second Life tools. We’ll begin with in-world building tools and LSL. We believe this will benefit Residents, Developers, and anyone who wishes to use Second Life by clearly identifying both key skills and the holders of those skills. This will also enable the creation of training to build the skills required for certification. It is Linden Lab’s intent to work with an external certification provider to offer certification testing and maintain a list of those Residents who have been certified,” the Lindens wrote on the wiki.
Evidently the Lindens have given up trying to ease the orientation and use of their wonky tools, and have decided to retreat into a “certification” process to spawn various third-party businesses to be “certified” to, in a sense, become mini-Linden Labs to their communities. Some users have already expressed concern that such an apprentice-like system will not be able to scale.
My contribution to the wiki discussion, before it’s wiped:
“This system is the final institution of the FIC. It’s not a positive development, as the free market and free media should establish value for skills. A free market and free media also enable anyone new to be able to access that market and media without having to clear unnecessary hurdles and bastions of establishment thinking and procedure.
All that’s happening here is that Linden Lab is dispensing licenses to create, completely overriding their concept of “your world/your imagination”. That is, sure, anybody can go on rezzing a cube, but Lindens are now deciding, in Central Committee fashion, who does this *well enough* to be able to qualify to exist in their certified community. It runs entirely contrary to the notions of openness and creativity which they originally promoted.”
Hiro Pendragon
Apr 24th, 2007
Hey Prok, I agree that there needs to be a level of openness with the certification. This is something I believe Glenn is heading up, and from what I know of Glenn, he likely also will share a concern to make sure the cert system is transparent. The concerns of the program are centered not around in-world activity, but the developer list.
So I would invite you and other professional SLrs who are interested in making sure there is openness in this program to sign up and help shape the program, as that seems to be exactly what the open sign-up is for.
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
No, Linden Lab isn’t good at openness and transparency, Hiro. Perhaps they shouldn’t try? They constantly spring bad ideas like this on the public as fait accomplis *after* they’ve nailed them down with their pets at SL Views or even more secretive consultations. No sale.
Glenn Linden is the Linden who offered his insiders’ list a crack and buying up remaining islands at the old price, is he not? The dev list is one of those things you have to “know somebody” and be “invited” to be on. No thanks.
If the developer list is not “centered around” inworld activity then…just what the *fuck* are they developing, Hiro? Themselves? Oh, thank you, you’ve answered my question about what “development” means for our world.
I absolutely DO NOT wish to sign up for any such institutionaliztion of the FIC, which was a crappy concept to begin with. They will even have a “land management” certification program and you can make DAMN SURE I will not be signing up even for that. It’s insane, and wrong.
It sure exposes their fake claims to openness and a free market. They wish to control the market with their pets. They are a cult. It’s better we know this sooner or later. Then perhaps the proper forces could be marshalled to limit its destructiveness sooner rather than later.
Nacon
Apr 24th, 2007
It’s there for a reason… cause too many people build crap and business from Real Life are not happy about being ripped off. (Sucka-punch anyone?)
And here is Prok bitching about it as if all College should teach everyone for less or simply free, so they can earn Master Degree.
Work your way up.
urizenus
Apr 24th, 2007
Successful accrediting systems are generally based on a peer review process and by the cultivation of reputations over time, not by top-down governmental decree. The latter strategy just leads to cronyism and corruption in the real world. Is there any reason it would be different in virtual worlds?
dandellion Kimban
Apr 24th, 2007
I thought that quality, at least in healthy societies, is controled by public. If you are good you are selling and everything is fine. If you are not then you go broke, and again, everything is fine.
Though I am supporter of the idea that some scripts should be controled and certyfied (gambling scripts come to mind) there is no way that everything on the grid is to be checked by lindens. But, after all, who cares? What goes for any other developer goes for Lindens too. If this idea is not good it will fail.
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
Nacon, trolling as usual. Could you point to a single demand on a single forums, official or third-party, complaining about *lack of credentials* or *lack of training* as a problem causing fraud or incompetence in Second Life?
Go ahead, make my day. There are few, if any. Because fraud and incompetence occurs even among the most highly credentialed. In fact, some of the people who have ripped me off the most in Second Life will easily obtain Linden-sponsored credentially classes and go on to rip off other people.
This is a solution in search of a problem that itself is helping to create.
dandelion is opening up another issue I didn’t think of. Certification of scripts! My God, aren’t the script kiddies going to scream about that? Of course, once you have a certified group of Linden-approved scripters, it’s a hop and a skip to making the scripts themselves be subject to approval.
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
>the latter strategy just leads to cronyism and corruption in the real world. Is there any reason it would be different in virtual worlds?
No, if anything it will be worse, without free media and democratic government to provide a corrective.
I always marvel that the Lindens keep coming up with stuff that is utterly discredited in the real world, but they think merely by virtualizing it, they can take corporativist concepts like top-down certification, and cyber-bless them and have them fly.
Nacon
Apr 24th, 2007
Yeah yeah yeah, I’m not planning on doing your homework. But I’ve been one of the people who suggested to Linden Labs to resist ability to build and script to free account users for quite a while. Seem like they are somewhat getting some ideas to make that different.
Hell, I’m not complaining about their plan with certification method. Seem reasonable if they really don’t want to remove the ability to build and script for poor fella much like yourself to have a “chance” to prove your skills at all.
Not forget to mention that even in Rea Life, you HAD to have some kind of certification like a master degree to get a good high paying jobs, no? What linden are actually doing is to save all big business their times dealing with idiot much like yourself.
I think you’re at lease upset about this “certification” thing going on because you know you’re hopeless with building and scripting, no?
(oh boo hoo! Every time anyone says I am trolling… really, they are just trying to avoid my question or statement.)
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
>But I’ve been one of the people who suggested to Linden Labs to resist ability to build and script to free account users for quite a while. Seem like they are somewhat getting some ideas to make that different.
Creator fascism. Fortunately for the sake of the freedom of the world, the Lindens’ slavish desire for more sign-ups to show people overcomes their desire to do shit like this at the behest of their toadies like you.
In RL, credentials like those provided for doctors or lawyers or even full-time Internet bores like yourself are things that credentialed schools and state bars and such provide, but there is a necessary check and balance on such systems: democratic systems of governance and a free media. We don’t have those within SL; having them around SL is extremely difficult.
I fail to see why RL credentials for operating on a live human being, legitimately put in place, or teaching and young and impressionable human being, should be then carried over as a concept in what is largely a game-like setting of creativity and innovation, where people use their imagination.
It wouldn’t matter if I were hopeless in building and scripting, I would surely pass the test for land management they envision coming, but I have no intention of propping up such a flawed system.
shockwave yareach
Apr 24th, 2007
A simple bit of regulation of the llRez() control is in order. Right now, letting anyone code with it regardless of skill level is like handing grenade launchers to monkeys. I say limit access to functions that create other things until the character has been in world for at least 3 months. This also prevents grey goo attacks by disposable characters.
scraggy
Apr 24th, 2007
“Nacon, trolling as usual”
For the uninformed reader, trolling here is defined as disagreeing with Prokofy Neva.
Ananda
Apr 24th, 2007
On looking over the source for this I don’t see even the slightest suggestion that it would be used as a means of controlling what people could or couldn’t create in SL. The closest analogue is not doctors or lawyers but all the other company-driven training or certification efforts in the computer software world. Programs that give you a credit on your CV for being “certified in Perl” or C++, or HTML or whatever, don’t prevent people from doing whatever they feel like with their own web pages. “Certified” courses in AutoCAD or Photoshop don’t dictate to people what they design with these programs.
This appears to be nothing more than an effort to add an appearance of professionalism to people’s resumes. If any real change comes about because of it, it will be in establishing a LESS biased standard for who has the skillz and who doesn’t.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
Thank you for alerting us to this, Prok. I rushed immediately to sign up.
That doesn’t mean I will necessarily want to be certified. Of course, I will NEED to be certified, and there is no reason why I wouldn’t be certified, so I certainly intend to stay that course.
It’s just that I’m such an individualist that depending on how this develops, it may wind up as something I don’tlike at all (possible – I’ve often seen seemingly innocuous things in SL turn into something awful) or don’t need (unlikely).
It’s just that I’ve always been quite the free agent, in real life, too. Where, thankfully, I didn’t need to be certified by the government in order to have a life-long, successful career as a sole-proprietorship writer.
Which brings me back to – I just don’t know what this thing is FOR. Is it just to help us builders and creators? Well, I need to go back and read their rationale.
The whole thing seems kinda nutty to me. Like you said, there is reason for people to get certified to, for example, operate on other people.
But to be certified in art? That’s a new one on me! Unless you are a teacher.
It’s like LL is our government and they are going to “certify” artists. (Some people keep saying they aren’t the government, but hey, isn’t this the hugest example that they are?)
State-sponsored certification of artists. Goodness.
Well, unless they make it illegal to sell things without certification, seems to me like most people will simply go around this. After all, it’s kind of against the whole point of art and creativity to have to be certified for it, isn’t it?
((Do you suppose they will make it illegal to sell things if you aren’t certified? I wonder, what is the long-term plan here? Could it be that anyone can create, but you can’t set your item for sale unless you are certified? I doubt it, but I suppose that’s a possibility.))
So people will still buy the things they see that they like. But those who are seriously in business to sell things here to other SL residents will certainly benefit from having this official certification, and not having it will be to their detriment.
So, okay, let’s say it’s not about art, it’s about business. Same thing here, though – what is our business OF, if not art? We are selling art, to be used as art.
Virtual houses are not going to actually fall down on people’s heads, are they? Virtual food is not going to poison anyone, and virtual weapons won’t really kill anyone.
These are all artistic representations, and really don’t need to be under governmental overview.
Anyway, those are my early thoughts.
coco
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
Actually, “trolling” is a concept I repudiate entirely. I don’t think it is something anyone can define, and therefore I don’t think it should ever be something you ban people for from a forums.
“Trolling” as narrowly defined often has to do with the desire of a young person with time on their hands, untethered to real life, to snipe at, challenge, goad, incite, challenge, and generally annoy everybody. It’s part of the growing up process that in real life, can lead to a range of responses, from adults either answering questions or slapping the young whippersnapper upside the head.
Online, this process becomes untethered, as there is little or no adult supervision or interaction, and only such haphazard interaction as can be expected on an asynchronous forums. The person who deliberately challenges and acts contrarian then crystallizes his online persona by constantly getting attention through trolling, because on his own, he is too weak and stupid to mount posts of solid content on his own.
If I were to have written an article lavishly praising the Linden system, and inserting myself in the list to get credentialed, Nacon would have changed his tune, calling it hyprokisy and FICyness and blah blah blah.
shockwave, I have to wonder at Linden licentiousness and licensing, two extremes of the same utopian stick. ON the one hand, instead of putting in such a REZ thing as you suggest, which many might support, they gasp at how that would put a crimp in creativity, especially of their little pets and their alts. On the other hand, the impose a heavy-handed licensing process that in fact few will be able to clear, and it will be very much a funnelled process.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
Well, I’d better be able to “clear” this. And I see no reason why I wouldn’t be able to.
If this turned out to be something they gave or withheld from people for other reasons (aside from skill), it would definitely be a very, very bad thing.
coco
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
Coco,
I’m fascinated to see that you’ve decided to bill SL as “art” and this process as “certifying art and artists” and you may get quite far with that concept.
I think for their purposes, however, they view it as “certifying programmers”. Full stop. They view everything that happens in SL to be function of coding. So building and scripting are very much tied into the tekkie programming hacker cult. Building becomes more like art, of course, but with all their geometry and physics imposed on building, they can make it seem like engineering instead of art.
They want a class of high priests, and will do anything to draw a circle around themselves to keep others out.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
Lol, I didn’t decide to bill it as art – it IS art, and nothing else. I never viewed it as anything else.
Coding and scripting, of course, are less art (much less), and I can see how coding and scripting could have lethal consequences, such as bringing the grid down.
coco
Hiro Pendragon
Apr 24th, 2007
Prok:
>> “No, Linden Lab isn’t good at openness and transparency, Hiro.”
Even if you feel this way about Linden Lab in general, Glenn has been. The whole developer listing that Glenn has put in a year’s worth of effort into, and the SLDEV group is open for residents to join simply by asking Glenn or Eric, and the requirements are out in the open. If a resident has experience in SL, there are multiple Linden Lab aided outlets for them to connect with other developers and clients.
>> “They constantly spring bad ideas like this on the public as fait accomplis *after* they’ve nailed them down with their pets at SL Views or even more secretive consultations. No sale.”
Linden Lab simply doesn’t have time or resources to talk to *everyone*, but from what I’ve seen with the SLViews group, they did make a concerted effort to get a broad cross-section of professionals and heavy users of SL.
>> “Glenn Linden is the Linden who offered his insiders’ list a crack and buying up remaining islands at the old price, is he not?”
No, he was not.
>> “The dev list is one of those things you have to “know somebody” and be “invited” to be on. No thanks.”
No, you don’t need to “know somebody”. You can email Glenn or Eric Linden and get on the list.
>> “If the developer list is not “centered around” inworld activity”
I don’t see how the list is anything but centered around in-world activity. At the same time, Second Life isn’t *entirely* about being a walled garden, and so there are plenty of business that, unlike yours, extend onto the web and with other real-world items.
>> “I absolutely DO NOT wish to sign up for any such institutionaliztion of the FIC, which was a crappy concept to begin with.”
You were the one who coined the phrase “FIC” – so there was no “concept to begin with” outside of your head. If you don’t want to be part of an open project, then, well, you’re leaving yourself out. Your choice, not some conspiracy.
>> “They will even have a “land management” certification program”
No. It’s building and scripting. And if you want to help make sure it’s not “land management”, then you should join and voice your thoughts.
>> “It sure exposes their fake claims to openness and a free market. They wish to control the market with their pets. They are a cult. It’s better we know this sooner or later. Then perhaps the proper forces could be marshalled to limit its destructiveness sooner rather than later.”
Name-calling. Whatever.
The fact is, Prok, that this system is out in the open and anyone can go to the wiki and volunteer. The broader picture is that there are tons of people who want to learn how to build and script, and there’s no good ways how to teach them. There are zero standards or curriculum in Second Life. By adding certifications, it allows people to concretely have a set of things that they know that they need to learn to be successful in Second Life.
It also paves the way for programming standards, APIs, and such, that will allow open source initiatives of all sorts of flavors. Imagine a SL browser with Firefox-like plugins where it’s much easier for individuals to create skins or add-ons, without having to know all of the information of the client. This is the kind of thing that standards are absolutely essential as a precondition.
You’re invited. Everyone’s invited. If you have something to say to make it a good program, say it, because there’s no one saying you can’t.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
The more I think about this, the more fascinating it becomes. Do you suppose they think of me as a programmer?
I’m kind of flattered by that concept.
I think of me as an artist who learned the particular program in order to create the art.
I noticed they call it “modeling” on the Wiki. But I also know that on all my computer games and other programs, they credit “artists,” so there must be room in the mindset for that pure concept.
coco
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
Hiro, there will be a certification program for land and land management. It says so on the Wiki.
coco
Tavasha_Martynov
Apr 24th, 2007
Erm… I don’t have the time to go do all the research just this moment(I plan to), but does this mean I have to worry about someone passing up my products now because it doesn’t have some Linden stamp of approval on it? :S
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
As I see it, yes. It’s something you’ve got to have.
coco
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
Tavasha, at one level, depending on your product and your customers, no, you don’t have to worry about it. But if certain top content creators can add to their enhanced reputations the Linden-made credential of “certified builder/texturer/scripter” etc. then that will position them to be better sellers in the market. Some customers will see that someone is a certified builder or scripter and buy their products and not others. That’s not a stamp of approval, but it’s a tactic awarding of a sort of Good-housekeeping type seal.
I can’t WAIT to see the fur fly and the eyes that get scratched out if/when they try to get into the concept of fashion as something to certify.
Hiro, Glenn runs a list for privileged developers. He’s the one who put out the word that the last batch of islands would be for sale at the old lower price for those on that special list to grab while they lasted, as the Lindens were getting ready to put up the new price.
And I’m sorry, that tainted that list for good for me. It was used in that well-documented way to encourage insiderism and special deals, and will always be available to do so again. The Lindens had to backtrack out of that quick once it became publicized. If it hadn’t been publicized, the islands would have sold to their pets and no one would be the wiser.
Um, nobody who runs or manages or governs “has time to talk to everyone”. That’s why you have representative government. That’s why you have processes and procedures even in non-democratic states for people to make their concerns known. SL Views is not a cross-section of anything but LL’s narrow interests.
The concept that it isn’t a conspiracy if I opt-out, or that “I’m chosing to isolate myself” is breathtakingly bad faith. What it means is that people get to put over things by force that no demonstrable majority, or even significant minority has consented to. There’s no demonstrable need for this, other than one a few Lindens and pets have identified to serve their own interests.
It doesn’t matter to me if I get certified; what matters to me is the effect on the whole free economy of this sort of approach.
I don’t think it’s “name-calling” to call Linden Lab, an entity that does NOT behave like a normal company, that behaves something like a government, that has wonky ideas of management, that has secretive processes and a ritual-like induction to its own ranks, a “cult”. It *is* a cult. Just because you get paid, and they let you go to the bathroom on demand, doesn’t mean it’s not a cult.
Love it, love it, love it, how open-source once again demonstrates that it is really about a closed society, about tiny cliques and cadres forcing standards on others under the guise of being open to everyone. God, it’s astouding bullshit.
It you want to make standards, I’m all for them. Just don’t cloak it in bullshit like this. Say “We want to make standards” and then have a democratic DISCUSSION about what those may be, with some kind of DEMOCRATIC PROCESS. Oh, never mind, it’s hopeless.
What I have to say about making this a good program is as follows: don’t launch it, and close it down.
Pro-tip, Hiro: if you want to be seen as skilled and credentialed, launch your products and services on the open market, and if people buy them, display them as successful projects and get more people to buy stuff. I mean, do it the open and free and normal way it’s done in a RL civilized and democratic country with a free market, instead of like Russia where you have to pay a bribe to some official to get a license to do business which shouldn’t require that kind of heavy discretionary approval anyway.
Then competition can thrive. Oh, I see, you did that, and it didn’t work, because certain monopolists were getting all the Linden-steered media coverage. Oh, ok. Well…I feel your pain, then. But I don’t think this new form of getting Linden blessing is a substitute for doing good work and having real customers who are happy reward you with more work.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
I’m very, very sorry to report that the early rumblings and vibes I get from my ear-to-the-ground are this:
If you don’t make builds for Fortune 500 companies, you don’t need it, and can’t have it. You cannot be certified.
Very early on, this is, yes. But I have a feeling that may become the primary struggle here.
coco
Joannah Cramer
Apr 24th, 2007
Hmmm putting all the drama aside for a second, this is the same Linden Lab that for past year at least has been desperately shutting down, outsourcing and pushing off their way pretty much every kind of resident-related service they could, because they have no manpower to handle these things given the current size and growth of SL. The same company which is atm reported as hopelessly backlogged with services they still imply to maintain (trading tiers reviews and whatnot)
Like out of a sudden they are going to find time to reliably run review and certifation program for things as complicated as scripting and building? Yeah, right. Maybe for couple weeks until it stops being initial fun and becomes the usual chore to be dropped and swept under the carpet…
Ananda
Apr 24th, 2007
Coco, can you explain further? Why would the certification be closed off in that manner? It would seem to be in the interests of everyone to have an open, standardized testing procedure. That includes anyone in the business of supplying services to Fortune 500 companies, as they would want the widest possible pool of talent to pick from in new hires.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
I would hope it would include anyone at all, including those in the business of servicing Fortune 500 companies.
As I say, it is just very on rumblings I’m reporting here – people who have said that regular builders wouldn’t need it – and that could be indicative of nothing at all.
I very much hope it would not go in that direction, and have no particular reason to think it will. However, it is something I want for myself, and the idea that others think I don’t need it is worrisome.
As I said above, if it is something given or withheld for reasons other than skill, that would be bad.
coco
Sadako Shikami
Apr 24th, 2007
Went to the wiki and noticed that scripts are already included in the certification process.
I’m a bit confused on this issue … LL seems to be saying that only certified builders will be able to use “key tools” in order to build. Which key tools are they talking about? Does this mean changes in the current build/edit menus? I’m not an expert and I doubt I’d get certified, but I’ve been learning to build clean, beautiful structures; learning to add scripts; and I’m damned happy when they sell! I can’t imagine a day in SL not being able to build or tweak a build to my heart’s content.
My main question is … does the LL certification thingy mean I would lose access to some of the build “tools” if I don’t get certified?
Joshua Nightshade
Apr 24th, 2007
“I’m very, very sorry to report that the early rumblings and vibes I get from my ear-to-the-ground are this:
If you don’t make builds for Fortune 500 companies, you don’t need it, and can’t have it. You cannot be certified.
Very early on, this is, yes. But I have a feeling that may become the primary struggle here.”
No one said this. Can’t you even wait a bit before misinterpreting something?
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
Key tools?
I missed that part.
Maybe there is more to my [[ ]] musing above than I realized.
coco
csven
Apr 24th, 2007
The interesting issue to me isn’t so much the certification of SL Developers, but whether or not marketing firms and corporations hirng them need some level of certification. After all, afaic the worst ideas seem to be driven from them and not the people developing the SL content for them.
I’d suggest that LL institute a Corporate Certification to ensure stupid ideas aren’t deposited inside SL.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
“Linden Lab is developing certification for the use of key Second Life tools.”
Uh-oh. You’re right.
Looks like I was right in my musings.
Now, I wonder what these key tools would be? Things we already have, that you would have to be certified to use?
Or – and I think this is more likely – nifty new tools that you can’t get unless you pay a certification administrator 1000 real U.S. dollars to take their test.
What a horrible thought!
coco
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
>My main question is … does the LL certification thingy mean I would lose access to some of the build “tools” if I don’t get certified?
I hope it doesn’t mean that. I hope that the sentence could be read: “LL is certifying that you can use key tools” not providing special FIC-only build tools.
I went to Robin Linden’s office hours and tried to get some answers on this. I said it was more over-involvement in resident governance, and she didn’t see it like that.
Khamon helpfully said, oh, it’s like getting a Novell license, and she grabbed on that analogy in relief.
But it’s not like a Novell license. Because there is competition to Novell. And because Novell exists in a society in RL where you can criticize it in the media, regulate it, exercise free market norms on it — it exists in a context where it can make sense.
In SL, it becomes merely a vehicle for a few egos to get stroked.
Gaius Goodliffe
Apr 24th, 2007
“It you want to make standards, I’m all for them. Just don’t cloak it in bullshit like this. Say “We want to make standards” and then have a democratic DISCUSSION about what those may be, with some kind of DEMOCRATIC PROCESS. Oh, never mind, it’s hopeless.”
Yes, it is. Decades of experience have clearly and irrefutably demonstrated to the software engineering community that when a “democratic process” sets a standard, it ends up being a hopelessly flawed, bad, counter-productive standard. Thankfully, in the marketplace of ideas, such standards usually end up being crushed under well-developed standards, which are usually the result of a one or a few developers with a common vision implementing a proof-of-concept in the form of working code that always performs way better than crap designed to please everybody. Of course, there are many real needs to be addressed, so the way to deal with that is, rather than let anyone throw out an idea that may not be able to be implemented well in practice (the downfall of most committee compromises or feature requirements from non-engineers), the open source community requires first that the idea be implemented, and that once proven workable, it only then be integrated into the whole. So, the initial standard is designed by few, and then everyone is free to extend it, but only if they can demonstrate with working code that it’s extensible in that manner.
Overly democratic processes have killed far too many standardization attempts for any software engineer today to take such nonsense seriously. You can argue all day until you’re blue in the face about the evils of this, but reality is what it is. It’s better to use a flawed process that has been proven to yield good results more often than not, then an “ideal” process that has been repeatedly proven to yield crap.
Open source is fully transparent, but it’s utterly non-democratic, specifically designed to discard the ideas of anyone who can’t demonstrate true engineering skill. Ideally, it’s a meritocracy. In reality, it can often fall short of that. But it’s far, far better than the alternative. Arguing against it in order to advocate an utterly unworkable alternative will get you nowhere.
Inigo Chamerberlin
Apr 24th, 2007
Ah, the certification con – I suppose it had to come.
What’s the point of talking about it? We all know how it works. Sooner or later ‘certification’ becomes a cash cow. ‘Certified’ AVs recover their certification costs by raising their prices. LL makes more money, ‘certified’ individuals don’t, employers of ‘certified’ individuals pay more – everyone looses – except LL.
You got a complaint about a ‘certified’ product/service? email support@lindenlab.com
Or – ‘If you care to examine the relevant section of the TOS…’
I’d be angry, except it’s actually laughable how LL jump in on every opportunity to wring a few more bucks out of SL.
$econd Life! OUR world – your MONEY.
The REALLY fun bit will be when it becomes a baning offence to employ the services of, or buy goods from, an uncertified source.
Or rez a prim by yourself if you aren’t certified.
How long before ‘escorts’ require certification I wonder?
Oh brave new world…
Ordinal Malaprop
Apr 24th, 2007
I have not seen any suggestion by actual Lindens that this is going to be used to restrict access – I think that “certification for the use of key Second Life tools” should really read “certification in the use of” or “of knowledge of the skills required in the use of” or something along those lines.
Restricting access to tools would be a huge philosophical change for LL and also something entirely counterproductive, going against all of the strategies for encouraging user contribution and participation; even taking the most mercenary interpretation possible of LL’s motives it would be a good move.
Also, as I said on the forums, it seems a little comical to be planning on creating certifications in the use of tools which aren’t even properly documented in the first place (the LSL Wiki is a fantastic and invaluable effort, but is not really the same thing – I can imagine the reaction were I to say in my other life “oh, let the users work out what I do, I’ll just give them the bare minimum and they can write their own manuals”) and are subject to rapid and unpredictable change and interaction. Mind you, if it means we get proper documentation on the tools, I would be much more favourably inclined.
Artemis Fate
Apr 24th, 2007
I’m still not sure what this MEANS even. It seems like it’s just some sort of wacky “Hey, you know how to build stuff? *stamp* Well now we recognize that you do. Congrats.” Seems rather pointless and unnecessary to me.
I do find it very interesting how LL policy has suddenly taken a U-turn from “Let’s try to stay out of resident affairs as much as possible” to cracking down on ageplayers, gambling, and this whole certification thing.
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
Ordinal, I would hope for better understanding from you.
If tool knowledge was just something on a template, where you could even make an automatic tutorial/certifier with a yes/no menu that took you through steps, like “rez a cube” and “Good, one point!” “now move that cube along the XYZ axis” “Good! take a point” with the end saying “You have 88 out of 100 points, you are certified!” then one might be for it.
But it will be gamed as it is subjective, arbitrary, and dependent on special relationships.
Basically, the Lindens are moving in the direction of other games like There and Kaneva and such that reserve developers as a kind of special class of players or residents consciously, an have special rules and procedures for them.
What I had always liked before about SL is that it didn’t have that conscious segregation, although of course they had the FIC system.
What I realize now is that the era of amateurs is over. They want SL to be software for developers of their choosing to build things for corporate clients.
The task now is for amateurs to exit gracefully, I imagine.
SunShine Kukulcan
Apr 24th, 2007
Coco:
So answer me this, why have you already signed up at the blog?
pits yao
Apr 24th, 2007
It will turn out as it is in real life, the most boring, awfull and commercial pieces will be sold by “certificated” people (like in rl with art for example), linden are obviously turning themself towards big corporates companies,
one thing to do is to send informations everywhere and to everyone not to buy from those “certificated” sellers, doesn’t that make you think of all the little shops who are closing in rl because of big supermarkets ??
your world/your imagination… my …
we’ll see…
will they force us to get certificated to have acces to new builiding tools?
will second life start to die soon? as most of people after a while having sex and clubbing are here for designing stuff…
looking a few years ago, actually in 1998, when “second world” was on line (basically the same as second life , owned by Canal +, a french private tv), it went famous, and disapeared as fast…
welcome to second corporate life
Io Zeno
Apr 24th, 2007
The only limit of access to these certifications will be financial, since they seem to want to have this testing done by third party companies. All I know is that IT certs can be quite expensive. We have no idea how easy or difficult the test may be for an average builder or coder. But that may not be the difference between who is certified or not, the willingness to pay for the testing may be the deciding factor. In which case it may in fact be limited to those doing business with RL companies, since that would be an investment worth making given the possible rewards. I doubt that your average seller is going to seriously consider the time and *expense* of a certification at this point.
Unless it is quite cheap. Then I start to have issues with it, if this becomes some necessary seal of approval in what has been a open-ended and creative atmosphere, where anyone can learn the skills and create, without all the BS of RL, creating divisions between the “pros” and the “amateurs”. That is a stifling influence, to me.
Ordinal Malaprop
Apr 24th, 2007
Prokofy: Certification can be a bad thing if a significant number of people actually think it means anything beyond “this person is not completely lying about knowing about X”. I suspect that some residents might take this view but certainly anyone who isn’t an idiot won’t; I have interviewed and recruited myself, as well as been through the process. (Incidentally, I have no professional certifications, as the only ones available I consider a waste of my time and money and not reflective of actual skills. This has not harmed me in the slightest. Either one is a complete newcomer, in which case one won’t be certified, or one has experience, in which case the experience is far more important.)
It is quite possible for special interests to hijack the requirements certainly – though it would be tricky to actually give oneself an advantage – and the slightest hint of a lack of transparency would mean that not only I but also hundreds of others denounce the programme. I am not interested in anything which involves residents certifying other residents.
The major point for me is any potential restriction of tool usage based on this. If that happens, I will be kicking up an immense fuss and considering leaving, because a major part of the enjoyment which I take from life on the Grid is in discussing, learning and teaching about scripting, and I actively reject a two-tier There-type system, with “registered scripters”, as I have stated since my first days. I don’t believe that LL plans to do this though (particularly in the context of open-sourcing).
I am in two minds about the whole thing, even if I mostly see it as an irrelevancy. On the one hand (or mind) I think that certification is unnecessary and possibly a handicap for younger residents wishing to get work. On the other hand, if handled properly, it may lead to increased educational resources and a set of basic tutorials in world skills, and education as to just how to do simple stuff in SL at the moment is sorely lacking, left to scattered residents to muddle through and generally very inefficient.
Tool access will be paramount, and the curriculum itself will be something worth close watching (which is why I put my name on the list) but this seems like a little more than the usual LL “oh here is something we are vaguely thinking about and might maybe do at some point perhaps”.
Ordinal Malaprop
Apr 24th, 2007
Io: Yes, the “pro” vs “amateur” thing is certainly something that makes me dislike the idea too. It’s not as if we need any more social division, particularly if the criteria are resident-set. But I suspect that if it comes to that many people will simply ignore it.
I won’t be jumping through any hoops myself, I can say that now.
Io Zeno
Apr 24th, 2007
As you said, Ordinal, this also may wind up on the heap of things LL would like to do and never get around to implementing. It’s a long list, heh. I like the fact that anyone can sign up for this at present though. The more resident eyes on the whole project the better. If they really are intent on doing this, I would like them to do it right. A certification can easily turn into a worthless but necessary evil and that is dragging a real life problem into SL for no good reason.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
Sunshine, I have made it clear from my first post here that I signed up for it, and have made it abundantly clear (I would think) why.
coco
Nacon
Apr 24th, 2007
Prok said: “Creator fascism”
Oh? Wasn’t that you bitching about people creating bunch of alts? Bitching about ESC using search creation into work? Copybots? Contests? I guess that also make you a “creator fascism” as well?
My suggestion was meant to be used to control these massive alt account that aren’t verified, to make most of them pointless and stick with one account with an actual verified data. Good job with this “name calling” method to press me in anyway. I mean really!
You’re still an idiot.
I do kinda agree with Artemis about how pointless it is but if Linden Labs want to do it this way, meh, fine, don’t really care other wise. It’s somewhat easier to prove something in a lazy way to people by simply showing them your Certification stamp/badge instead of showing them your creation.
It really doesn’t matter as much, should wonder why Prok is bitching about it. She has no business in building nor scripting.
Cocoanut Koala
Apr 24th, 2007
It’s still way early to say, but now it’s looking to me like this is something that will be available only at high cost, and thus something available only to people who work for real-life corporations.
So essentially, it is probably de facto already only for Development Directory people, and not even all of them.
Now, that would mean that though lots of us have signed on for it, in order to make it better, and hoping to become certified ourselves, ultimately it would only be available, pragmatically speaking, to a few.
So – they’re getting our work on it for nothing – to create the standards. But this work may ultimately go toward benefitting only a few.
coco
Prokofy Neva
Apr 24th, 2007
Coco, where do you see that they will charge for this certification? how do you mean “cost”?
SexY
Apr 24th, 2007
_Oh? Wasn’t that you bitching about people creating bunch of alts? Bitching about ESC using search creation into work? Copybots? Contests? I guess that also make you a “creator fascism” as well?_
Um, Nacon, isn’t that why you had S. Valentine banned, so you could have the whole SIM to yourself and your creations?
We remember.
Rebel Television
Apr 24th, 2007
I’m crossing my fingers that it’ll be a great opportunity for some of us in the long run. A way for able content creators without celebrity status or social networks, and without the business savvy to create famous products, to get a piece of that corporate pie; to receive handy PayPal deposits for our work, instead of battling for L$ breadcrumbs.
In any case, the meritocracy will still be there for those who want to be judged that way. You’ll still be able to go on SL Exchange and compare various items on grounds like aesthetic appeal, seller reputation, and buyer ratings and reviews. “Certified Builder” won’t mean much if the pictures suck.