No Life-Logging Please, We’re Second Lifers
by prokofy on 29/06/07 at 1:58 am
By Prokofy Neva, Harry Bridges Memorial Dept., Smith Act, Inc.
You know how when you go to play a game, this TOS drops down in front of you? You know, the screen that says “I agree” or “I disagree” in Second Life — the rules that you must obey or you can’t enter the world. They contain many complicated, vague, sometimes even contradictory things, but you want to get playing the game or you need to get into the virtual space to run your business or socialize, so you click “yes,” even though you’re not happy. You’re not happy, but hey, that’s how it is. It’s their game. It’s their servers. They can do what they want.
But imagine if you had a drop-down TOS like that in real life. That wouldn’t be right, would it? In real life, laws like that get made with more responsible and accountable people in charge, usually — don’t they? And you’ve never had an agreement to sign like that before you went to a conference, to speak at a workshop, or to record the sessions or photograph the participants, have you?
Well, welcome to the oppressive and chilling future inklings of the Metaverse that Second Life and its fetid fetid ones always provide for us. The Zhdanovites at the SLCC OrgKomitet have now posted “SLCC Community Standards” — like the sort of CS you sign on to when you log on, but not half as well-written, and not a third as intelligently interpreted as we get from Daniel Linden. Don’t like it? Refund your reg fee by July 13.
In a post at the notorious free-for-all forums Second Citizen (which, BTW, has no rules even remotely resembling these ones their leaders have posted for this real-life conference!), Jennyfur Peregrine has nonchalantly indicated that anyone who goes to SLCC will have to commit to abiding by these rules — or face removal. That means you cannot videotape or record any sessions — exclusive total broadcasting rights are granted to only one SL media company, Phreak Radio (the “fair use” of other broadcasters isn’t made clear). That means you cannot speak for more than 1-2 minutes when you ask a question. That means you cannot “harass” anyone else — a concept that is as capacious as the ever-growing grid of SL itself. Read the rules here and my analysis here in this thread.
Let’s hope Linden Lab, MillionsofUs, RiversRunRed, Infinite Vision Media, Useful Technology, NMC Virtual Worlds, Anshe Chung Studios, OnRez, and the other sponsors of SLCC get a serious grip on the implications of turning real life into a game ruled by game-gods, and urge the organizers to drop these ill-conceived organizer-made restrictions in favour of media self-governance.
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
Dearie? Every convention out there has rules and regulations be they written or not – get a grip, M’kay?
As to your ‘analysis’? Yet another example of how you think each and every thing posted by those you do not like somehow has to relate to you: You’re not the center of the Universe nor are your values the One True Path …
Christ, people like you are the reason I don’t go to Church very often.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
I wouldn’t ever think I was the center of the universe if the Blingsider didn’t think I was the center of the universe:
http://www.secondlifeinsider.com/2007/06/28/slcc-sets-forth-community-standards/
Could you please post some links to similar Community Standards from conferences you’ve attended in RL, Reality? Thanks in advance!
Anonymous
Jun 29th, 2007
Yes, these rules are stupid.
I don’t know why they bother calling this a “community convention,” as it bears no resemblance to other game community conventions I have known of (or, in fact, ANYTHING else I’ve ever been to in terms of group gatherings or conferences).
It’s just plain dumb.
coco
Kahni Poitier
Jun 29th, 2007
You got paid 1000L to write this?
What a waste.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
>You got paid 1000L to write this?
We haven’t been paid yet at the Herald this month, Gertrude in payroll is out sick with hanta virus or something. But I may only get $500 for this one, it’s short.
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
Nope, sorry Prokofy – SL Insider isn’t to blame for your attitude.
Want Links? find them yourself dearie – that is after all what you seem to love making others do … time to be on the receiving end for once.
Coco, there are two concepts here that both you and Prokofy do not seem to understand:
1. It is their convention – they get to decide what happens there.
2. such things as the harassment rule are common sense and often part of an agreement of the unspoken, unwritten type.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
>Nope, sorry Prokofy – SL Insider isn’t to blame for your attitude.
What made the Blingsider obsess about me then?
>Want Links? find them yourself dearie – that is after all what you seem to love making others do … time to be on the receiving end for once.
What, no ready bookmarks to the protocol of the MXIV Executive Session of the International Assembly of Denizens of Our Moms’ Basement?
>Coco, there are two concepts here that both you and Prokofy do not seem to understand:
>1. It is their convention – they get to decide what happens there.
Er, at a COMMUNITY Convention? So Jennyfur gets to decide what is the community? Did Jeska sign this? Did Anshe? Did OnRez? Did RRR?
>2. such things as the harassment rule are common sense and often part of an agreement of the unspoken, unwritten type.
Perhaps there’s a reason why they aren’t written?
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
“What made the Blingsider obsess about me then?”
Figure it out for yourself dearie.
“What, no ready bookmarks to the protocol of the MXIV Executive Session of the International Assembly of Denizens of Our Moms’ Basement?”
1. Come up with something a bit more original dearie – that particular insult is older than a mesozoic fossil.
2. High time you did your own legwork dearie – hop to it!
“Er, at a COMMUNITY Convention? So Jennyfur gets to decide what is the community? Did Jeska sign this? Did Anshe? Did OnRez? Did RRR?”
Since a private company is running this convention dearie, logic follows that they dictate the rules. Did you ever stop to think the name is simply something that was picked to be easily recognized?
“Perhaps there’s a reason why they aren’t written?”
Nope, not really. In some cases they really do need to be written down so that twits without a shred of common sense cannot claim they did not know what the rules were.
Of course dearie such rules also need to be written down for those who have gotten a wee bit too big for their britches.
bunnerz vavoom
Jun 29th, 2007
curious how Provoky only worries about harrassment when he is the victim. points to josh sao conversation about myself and request for Him to show some dignity.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
bunnerz, despite not *wishing* to have my photo taken, I’m a public figure, so if a Herald paparazzi snaps me at SLCC dancing with Anshe Chung, well, it’s kind of a Barbara Streisand problem, you know? And I don’t believe in suppressing the free media. I do believe, that in Second Life, since the Lindens have a TOS and a very enforced policy of not allowing first-life disclosure that is not explicitly permitted on a resident’s first-life profile, that it is actionable to harass someone with their first-life photo.
That’s not at all comparable to the situation with Joshua Sao. I was on assignment, sent to an island to snap a picture of it, and get a screenshot of the parcel owners.
Within seconds of arriving, I was challenged by a group of people, with you at the forefront, and was shot at, firebombed, told I was “harassing” people, and informed I’d be abuse-reported. This has nothing to do with first life and the Linden TOS; it’s in Second Life. And your claim that you were simply accidently there isn’t credible when the chat log is read. I’ll invite readers to judge for themselves.
I wonder if it has occurred to you yet, bunnerz, that all the notoriety and infamy you may have got from the Herald, given that your name wasn’t mentioned in the Herald’s original story, and your picture wasn’t identified in the Herald’s photo of very tiny avatars, has been gained by you harassing me in world with your claims. And if you persist in constantly trying to link your name with mine, you’re constantly getting more notoriety. Oh, no, I guess it didn’t occur to you.
Darkfoxx
Jun 29th, 2007
I have visited a number of conventions. Yes, furry conventions.
ALL of them have had a set of rules to hold to, some fair, others not as fair, but all more or less needed.
This definately is no exception, and not at all strange.
Micheal Berg
Jun 29th, 2007
Excuse me Reality but how many conferences have you attended in real life? I’m one of the unfortunate people stuck in academia, i.e. low wages, long working hours, and far too many conferences to attend in order to prove that we are really working hard and do research on something “original”.
I’ve been in many conferences in my life and not a *single* one had agreements of this kind, that would be laughable. Rules about harassment towards another attendee? Rules on how the press needs to behave? Rules about property damage? Is that an adults conference or the participants are limited to kindergarten kids?
The only rules that make some (little) sense are those about taking photos and recording the sessions and the live performances. The rest of the rules are as if they intended for some kind of a mob SL conference and are clearly written by people who don’t have any conference organization experience in real life.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
I’m glad Michael Berg spoke up. I’ve organized hundreds of conferences in my RL, easily. I can remember one famous incident covered by the New York Times where I had to physically separate two warring ethnic groups at the speakers’ podium. I’ve never seen rules like this in my life, ever.
Darkfoxx is indicating to us that sub-cultural groups in MMORPGs and virtual worlds develop elaborate restrictive rules to control behaviour for reasons that still remain opaque to me — but more to the point, I can’t imagine why grown-ups in the real-world attending business and technology workshops would be signing complex and overbroad rules like this — or that organizers would be attempting to enforce them. It’s absolutely nuts.
Most conferences in this world of virtual world enthusiasm seem to be filled with people videoing and photographing and people enthusiastically upload their photos to Flickr and talk about every single thing they’re doing on Twitter.
I can’t imagine a conference like SWSX having rules like that — people would be baffled, if not angry. I don’t even see rules like this at major world conferences, even in some repressive countries.
The only time I’ve seen this kind of “no photos” policy is either in the Soviet Union, where they were paranoid if you took a picture even of a bridge or a sailor strolling around, or in casinos. That’s what this reminds me most of — casinos, where it is absolutely verboten to photograph other people — and of course the machines themselves.
So…SLCC is like a big casino?
The issue of recording is completely skewed, and I can’t believe they’ve actually sat down and discussed this with the actual participants. NMC, the educational people, are not going to allow any taping or recording except by this designed Phreak Radio? Huh? What, are they *selling* this product? But nobody ever does that with public conferences for which you pay a fee.
I fail to see why the arcane rules of RP furries have to be the norm for adults in the modern world discussing modern social media. It absolutely boggles the mind.
I suspect these rules were developed in secret by the OrgKomitet which then simply posted it as if it were “normal,” thinking they could just wield it as a hammer on people as they wished.
Inigo Chamerberlin
Jun 29th, 2007
You know, I don’t see anything unreasonable about those guidelines… and if anyone thinks them unreasonable – don’t attend. Really simple.
Of course, for anyone who was planning on attending and breaching the rules – as a matter of ‘principle’ – then I could see how they might be unhappy that their intended drama-fest was preempted.
Still, you know (maybe you don’t?), there are rules of behaviour most places, written and unwritten. It’s something about normal human society.
No Photography/No Video/No audio rules are NOT uncommon at conferences, seminars and other non-public, admission paying, events. I dunno what alternate reality you are coming from Prok, but that IS the case, and all your saying it isn’t won’t affect reality one iota.
Onder Skall
Jun 29th, 2007
WANT TO BROADCAST FROM SLCC ANONYMOUSLY?
- I’m not going, so I can’t be kicked out. Contact me. I’ll get your video/audio/text/photos online and to the public and will protect your identity.
NONE OF US READ THE RULES.
“What’s this? Oh, it’s the Terms of Service! Let me take an hour out of my time to read through them, think about what they mean, and plan out my personal behavior guidelines to be sure that I don’t breach them!”
Yeah right.
All this means is that people will treat the organizers like cops instead of friends. People will do what they want, they’ll just be more sneaky about it. It’s a shame that they would feel the need to alienate people this way.
Ian Betteridge
Jun 29th, 2007
Michael says: “I’ve been in many conferences in my life and not a *single* one had agreements of this kind, that would be laughable. ”
The world of academic conferences is very different to that of general ones. It’s fairly standard to have restrictive rules on what you can’t do at big cons (and often “no videoing keynotes/speeches/etc without prior permission” is one of them).
Prokofy says: “I’ve organized hundreds of conferences in my RL, easily”
The size of SLCC? Hundreds? So you’re in your 50′s… you’ve been organising 3-4 open-access (ie not simply invite-only) conferences a year since you were in your 20′s? I’d love to see a list. Or are you just lying… sorry “word salading”… again?
Cristiano Midnight
Jun 29th, 2007
The American Society of Hematology’s Annual Meeting:
http://www.hematology.org/meetings/2006/attendee/rules.cfm
Highlights – no audio or video recording of any sessions without the expressed permission of the organizers. Videotaping only in public areas by certified members of the media, and only with permission and when accompanied by an ASH members. No still photography under any circumstances – the only photographer allowed is the official ASH photographer.
The Anime Expo 2007, Long Beach:
http://www.anime-expo.org/?q=general/guidelines
Highlights – Removal for harassment. Harassment is any behavior that seriously annoys or alarms another person. This includes unwanted physical contact, following someone in a public area, verbal assaults, or threatening physical violence. Photography or videography of Anime Expo® events, staff, or attendees for the purpose of sale, or publication to the press is expressly forbidden unless written permission has been obtained from Anime Expo® and the SPJA as well as the Long Beach Convention Center in accordance with its press policy. Your acceptance of a membership and attendance at any Anime Expo® event, including the convention, constitutes a grant of rights to Anime Expo® to reproduce, display, distribute, perform, create derivative works from and otherwise use any footage or parts of the footage that it affixes in any media and in any manner throughout the world in perpetuity, including on the internet, broadcast, satellite and other transmissions.
Tsubasacon
http://www.tsubasacon.org/content/view/46/36/
Highlights: Disruptive Behavior and Harassment policies, with violators facing anything from verbal warnings to criminal charges.
American Society for Reproductive Medicine Annual Meeting:
http://www.asrm.org/Professionals/Meetings/washingtondc2007/exhibitors/2007Prospectus_rulesandregs.html
Highlights: No pictorial, visual, or audio recording, or broadcasting of any type shall be made in the convention center or any other locations of ASRM scientific sessions without the prior written approval of ASRM Exhibit Management and the convention center. An official photographer is designated in the Exhibitor Service Manual.
urizenus
Jun 29th, 2007
I have to say I’m most cheesed off by the property damage clause. I have to pay if I trash the Herald suite??? Well then…
I’m.
Not.
Going.
Tenshi Vielle
Jun 29th, 2007
“which, BTW, has no rules even remotely resembling these ones their leaders have posted for this real-life conference!” The forum is run by an ex-con. What do you expect?
Jennyfur’s rules are, unfortunately, necessary with certain people I know of attending – who can’t grow up and act like adults. This is sad because no convention I know of has to have a set of standard rules like this set up. I’m not usually for cheering on the SLCC – but this time I think they’re right.
Tenshi Vielle
Jun 29th, 2007
Cristiano: Do you notice something in common with the particular conventions you just listed?
I do.
Uri: That also means you and I can’t jump on the bed.
shockwave yareach
Jun 29th, 2007
There are a number of types of conventions.
- fanbased, like Science Fiction or Trek cons.
- academic, like “Space Healthcare 2008″
- professional
- sales, like the Offshore Petroleum Conference
Academic and Professional usually ban cameras or recording devices. Sales is somewhat restrictive, but doesn’t get concerned when buyers get their pictures taken with the booth babes. Fanbased cons usually are only concerned with photography within the art shows. But some fanbased cons also have the most onerous codes of conduct, too. Ask any SF geek about the now-infamous Rule Number Six (which made a button maker tons of money when he quickly started putting out buttons reading “I’m a Six Offender”).
This conference is probably the sales/professional type of gathering, where LL releases future plans and how to integrate into their nextgen stuff. PRobably a fair bit of NDA signing is required, too. And their CYA code of conduct is probably just like the TOS – a weasel document to hit anyone with at anytime, should they see a need to. Not that they’ll actually ever, you know, ban anyone or anything…
Nicholaz Beresford
Jun 29th, 2007
Well, being an cc/open-source/tekkie type I’m sure not thrilled by these kinds of rules. But trying to gain control over content is Zeitgeist, but I think it is an uphill battle and the problem will solve itself.
What surprises me though is Proky’s gripe, who’s often challening my liberal views with “someone has to pay the bills” type of opinions and how free and open is an illusion. So, SLCC is paying the bills, nobody is forced to attend … so what?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t these rules and avoid such stuff as often as I can, I love my freedom too much to subject myself to areas where a secuity guard can tel me to put away my camera when I want to take whatever snapshot. I leave that to people who like rules and control. And for a second life conference I think it’s ridiculous (but still their right as organizers).
Lewis Nerd
Jun 29th, 2007
Glad I have nothing to do with the SLCC any more.
If it’s as much of a disaster as last years, maybe there won’t be a 2008 one.
Lewis
Alyx Stoklitsky
Jun 29th, 2007
The only thing in this article worth seeing was the Iraqi information minister.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
Please cite a single Metaverse-related conference that has these rules — there aren’t any.
Did Ludium have rules like this? Of course not.
This isn’t an academic conference, either.
And…our standard is going to be medical conferences probably financied by Big Pharma? And even if medical conferences *do* have rules about taping, I’d have to say that professional societies, with normal people in them, not insecure provincials running something like a game fans congress, would have established such rules professionally, over time. They wouldn’t stick in rules like “no harassment” — that doesn’t make sense, as it is overbroad and would go without saying in any event.
Yes, Ian, I’ve been organizing more conferences that you can shake a stick at since my early 20s. 3-4 “open access” a year? No. Most aren’t open-access because they are in a specific field, but many have been open to the public, and often that means hecklers, harassers, etc. Is 3-4 a year an exaggeration? Hmm, I’d have to sit with lists and count them, and maybe it will only come out to 142 or 257, who the hell knows, but it’s very safe to say I’ve organized more conferences in my lifetime than you’ve ever gone to in yours : ) And no, you can’t have lists, and no, I’m not “lying” if I describe something like “hundreds over 30 years, because my God, there are a tremendous amount!
Nicholas, are you mad? We all pay the bills here! It’s not a private party. It’s a COMMUNITY conference. It doesn’t have people organizing it who even represent the community in any kind of serious way! Lewis is probably right, that it may not even persist into next year, so unrepresentative and unaccountable it is.
I checked with with Robin Linden today to see if she had heard of these rules and endorsed them. She had not seen them yet and was going to take a look. That lets me know that this invocation of “The Lindens” was specious, and involved either only one Linden, or Lindesidents who are the organizers friends, former residents-turned-Lindens. Given that LL is invoked as if they had just freshly indicated a desire to invoke their CS outside of Linden Lab’s servers, I think that was fascinating. And what *are* the legal implications for Linden Lab, given the alleged promise invoked in these Communit Standards, to the effect that people’s privacy *can* be assured and they *will* be free of photographic intrusion. I can’t believe their lawyers would agree to making such rules precisely because they are in no position to enforce them or accept liabilities from them.
It’s very telling to me that all these open-source types are the first to make a closed society with a set of rules no one endorsed except a tiny cadre of organizers. And that’s what’s wrong with the so-called open-source movement, and that’s why they are discredited and will go on being discredited.
Tenshi, could you find an example of any indication that I’d be prone to violating these rules, based on past behaviour? You know as well as I do that it’s other people who have taken my picture, defaced it, and harassed me endlessly and mercillessly with it. It’s other people stalking me, calling me at home in RL, and even taking a picture of my door. It’s other people forcing their presence on me and not introducing themselves before imposing a fishy handshake. Ugh. For you to imply that these rules need to especially apply to me lets me know that you’re in the usual SL hall of mirrors where you’ve head such a drumbeat of propagagnda you are no longer in touch with anything resembling the truth.
Inigo’s claim that you can’t take pictures or record at subscription-paid conferences simply don’t hold up. Because we’ve all been to them, including in this field, including past SLCCs and things like State of Play and Virtual Worlds 07, and they did not have these rules nor force people to sign them when they attended.
I also say the overbroad and overly restrictive language of the Anime conference is an alarming indication of this whole game culture and tekkie-wiki mentality that is stifling the Metaverse already and suffocating dissent. It’s really sinister — it has no place in an open society.
Nacon
Jun 29th, 2007
“That means you cannot “harass” anyone else –”
And I’m assuming Prok won’t go harassing with idiot questions? That’s almost impossible…
…Oh fuck that, I’m going.
“>1. It is their convention – they get to decide what happens there.
Er, at a COMMUNITY Convention?”
Oh what the fuck now, Prok? I thought you claims you have your own community, which is your rental place. However, you do decide what and who can rents, what the renters can do there, etc etc. You have your own rental rules.
So if youre gonna gripe about how the “community” be free from such rules, then you SHOULD let any renters do whatever the fuck they want on your rentals. But of course, you should know better than that. Rules are to be made to keep idiots that bothers you in such a wrong place or a person very much like yourself, out. Don’t like it? Suck it.
Jennyfur
Jun 29th, 2007
As I posted to Second Citizen moments ago:
Since some people have claimed that major conventions never have community standards or guidelines to follow I figured I would poke around on the intarwebs a bit a see what I could find
From the Dragon Con website: http://www.dragoncon.org/policies.php
Jennyfur
Jun 29th, 2007
For the record once again (also posted to Second Citizen):
The SLCC is comprised of many more people than just Flipper and myself. We are on the board of the Future United Group along with Randy Moss (who is the Chair), Nethermind Bliss, Misty Rhodes, Nexeus Fatale and Jeska Linden. The “community standards” were written, revised and finalized by this core group of people not just Flipper and myself. Here is a full list of the key people working on the convention http://slcc2007.wordpress.com/contact-us/
As I have said before, we have always had a loosely woven structure for community standards in the past. Most are common sense and a few needed clarification (especially on the part of rebroadcasting and video streams). Usually, we just emailed people them who had registered. For instance, last years big two were 1) permission on taking peoples photographs especially if they are going to be on the web and 2) encouraging 500 people to not show up at Linden Lab on the Friday of the convention… some listened some did not.
We had planned all along on having some sort of community standards and had talked about this within our group on numerous occasions. We thought it would probably be a good idea to post them sooner than the day before the convention. With the formation of our non-profit organization we have had to quickly and swiftly formalize many things that in the past we left up to chance. We are an organization nonetheless and I would gather the conclusion that most organizations have some sort of internal policies and procedures. The community standards are ours and we wish to remain fully transparent about them.
Honestly, I don’t foresee there being too many problems with violating the community standards.
For further clarification:
1. Harassment of any kind towards another attendee will not be tolerated.
This is a no brainer – don’t be an ass to people. Its a common courtesy. If your sole intent is to come to the SLCC to harrass people perhaps you should find something better to do.
2. If you are a member of the press, please be respectful to those you are interviewing and all attendees.
Again this is a fairly common rule of etiquette. The Hilton does not have a problem with any media presence so long as it does not disturb their other guests.
3. Always get permission before taking a photograph or video. Many people go to great lengths to keep themselves off of the World Wide Web. If someone asks you not to take their picture, or if you have taken one and they ask you to delete it, please oblige.
This has been the number one request from Linden Lab for the first two conventions.
4. Any property damage caused by an individual (including, but not limited to, hotel rooms, displays, the convention space or other space on the Hilton grounds) will be that individual’s responsibility.
Again a fairly simple concept. You assume responsibility for your actions.
5. With the exception of Phreak Media and its subsidiaries, recording of video or audio of any sessions or live performances is strictly prohibited and subject to legal action. We are bound by both union rules and contractual obligations. This does not apply to news coverage and interviews or incidental documentary footage, B-Roll and background images. It is not permissible to rebroadcast any performance, panel or track.
This one was albeit the most tricky to write. Yes, it is ok for footage and interviews from the SLCC to be used in documentaries and/or news footage so long as it is not a rebroadcast of entire presentations or tracks etc.
6. During question and answer periods, time at the microphone will be limited to 1-2 minutes for a question, strictly adhered to and enforced by moderators and organizers. Please, no speeches or diatribes.
Misty suggested this one actually after we had seen how poorly this was managed at the Virtual Worlds 2007. Again, its a general rule of thumb, you are not going to be beat down if your question is 2.15 minutes. We will have mike runners and moderators for the Q&A sessions.
7. The Future United reserves the right to remove any attendee at any time for non-adherence of the community standards. Such decisions will not be made lightly and will be final. SLCC attendees also agree to release The Future United from all legal responsibilities, indemnifying and holding harmless all members of The Future United and all other attendees.
A basic indemnification clause. Please understand that for the SLCC organizers to oust someone from the convention as a whole for disruptive behavoir would be an extreme and unforeseen measure. We hope that under no circumstance that we have to enforce the community standards to this degree.
Regards,
Jennyfur
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
“Please cite a single Metaverse-related conference that has these rules — there aren’t any.”
Hmm, shall we use the way back machine to see how you are now suddenly attempting to disqualify information you have been given in a futile and juvenile attempt to keep anyone from proving you wrong?
I think we shall!
“Could you please post some links to similar Community Standards from conferences”
Hmm, there we are – no qualifier at all. Just ‘conferences’.
Nice try dearie – You’ve been given the proof by someone far kinder than I. Now you are attempting to negate the information by narrowing the field – Nope, doesn’t work that way dearie.
The rest of the comment the initial quote here is from is just more bullshit from the fantasy land you live in.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
>From the Dragon Con website: http://www.dragoncon.org/policies.php
A game conference is what we should accept as the standard for the Metaverse?
Jennyfur, your claims that it’s “more people than just me and Flipper” is just plain silly. Everyone knows it’s you and your little friends. The current nominal organizer Nethermind is Taco Rubio’s partner. Taco Rubio is one of the Phreak Radio founders. It’s a very parochial and insular
exersize, from start to finish. The organizers don’t know about these rules; the Lindens don’t know about them; it’s just been laid on by a small group of cadres only know, and the “community” didn’t decide them.
Randy Moss isn’t elected by any community to write the laws setting the tone in general for not only SLCC but SL and the Metaverse; he’s just a bureaucrat from a large American industrial charity. It’s not right when people PAY for SL and PAY for this conference. And it isn’t drafted with any intelligence as to what is acceptable in the field; in technology; in academia.
Rules that you have to keep interpreting and issuing other instructions are about are always bad rules.
>Harassment of any kind towards another attendee will not be tolerated.
This is a no brainer – don’t be an ass to people. Its a common courtesy. If your sole intent is to come to the SLCC to harrass people perhaps you should find something better to do.
Oh? It’s clear that Joshua Nightshade’s sole intent in coming to a Metaverse Meet-up was to try to impose himself on me and shake my hand and make a nuisance of himself. There are others whose sole intent as they participate in this conference will be to come and bait, harass, and stalk me. Are you preparing to assume legal liability for preventing this from happening?
I myself haven’t indicated any such intent whatsoever. My invitation to support life-logging was precisely to *prevent* the kind of harassment that comes from tendentious misportrayals of what goes on.
Here’s a community where, for example, Flipper can *lie* that I can up “twice” to Aimee Weber and “hissed at her” and “held up a cross,” when in fact what *did* happen is that when forcibly introduced to her against my will, I said “fucking shit” (I didn’t “hiss”) and I held up a crossed fingers merely to make a flippant comment that I consider the entire thing evil, and refuse to be dragged into any impromptu floor debate about it.
When I see how the lunchtime exchange at SLCC1 with Kendra was misrepresented, and the person with the film even afraid to come forward and show it, evidently (as it would give the lie to Kendra), and when I see Joshua repeatedly lying about what occurred at these meetings, and Cristiano, who wasn’t at either, chiming in hysterically in his white robes, I have to conclude that these notions of “harassment” are in such tendentious, unaccountable hands that the *only* way you could protect yourself is to tape in self-defense.
>2. If you are a member of the press, please be respectful to those you are interviewing and all attendees.
>Again this is a fairly common rule of etiquette. The Hilton does not have a problem with any media presence so long as it does not disturb their other guests.
The Hilton hasn’t issued a set of rules on this conference nor interpreted the rules tendentiously and vindictively in the past as you and your little friends have. That’s why we have to be concerned. These are the sorts of norms that are best left unwritten because most people obey them, and introducing an element of arbitrariness in defining them is wrong.
>3. Always get permission before taking a photograph or video. Many people go to great lengths to keep themselves off of the World Wide Web. If someone asks you not to take their picture, or if you have taken one and they ask you to delete it, please oblige.
>This has been the number one request from Linden Lab for the first two conventions.
It’s not been delivered in writing; it’s not in any agreements that anyone signed for SLCC1 or SLCC2 and it is honoured in the breach in my case. If this in fact WAS a promise and a demand for SLCC1, great, I’d like to hold the Lindens — and you — responsible for the constant thuggery I experience inside SL itself in particular related to my RL picture.
>4. Any property damage caused by an individual (including, but not limited to, hotel rooms, displays, the convention space or other space on the Hilton grounds) will be that individual’s responsibility.
Again a fairly simple concept. You assume responsibility for your actions.
I’m surprised you haven’t demanded insurance fees from your drunken friends.
>5. With the exception of Phreak Media and its subsidiaries, recording of video or audio of any sessions or live performances is strictly prohibited and subject to legal action. We are bound by both union rules and contractual obligations. This does not apply to news coverage and interviews or incidental documentary footage, B-Roll and background images. It is not permissible to rebroadcast any performance, panel or track.
>This one was albeit the most tricky to write. Yes, it is ok for footage and interviews from the SLCC to be used in documentaries and/or news footage so long as it is not a rebroadcast of entire presentations or tracks etc.
Who the hell is Phreak Radio? The same thing as the organizers. And who granted them exclusive rights? No one I’m aware of. And why falsely and tendentiously invoke unions? They are irrelevant.
>6. During question and answer periods, time at the microphone will be limited to 1-2 minutes for a question, strictly adhered to and enforced by moderators and organizers. Please, no speeches or diatribes.
>Misty suggested this one actually after we had seen how poorly this was managed at the Virtual Worlds 2007. Again, its a general rule of thumb, you are not going to be beat down if your question is 2.15 minutes. We will have mike runners and moderators for the Q&A sessions.
I don’t see that this was managed poorly at all at VW07. I certainly wasn’t guilty myself of any lengthy diatribes or fake long questions which were actually comments. I think this is ridiculous — and false. I’d like Misty to give us a link because I don’t buy it. Some of the longer questions from the floor, like from the Whyville guy, or Hiro Pendragon, were among the most interesting of the conference, and the organizers didn’t interrupt them.
Panel moderators have to moderate things like this with flexibility, on the spot. They don’t write them and codify them into rules to impose on everyone in advance.
>7. The Future United reserves the right to remove any attendee at any time for non-adherence of the community standards. Such decisions will not be made lightly and will be final. SLCC attendees also agree to release The Future United from all legal responsibilities, indemnifying and holding harmless all members of The Future United and all other attendees.
A basic indemnification clause. Please understand that for the SLCC organizers to oust someone from the convention as a whole for disruptive behavoir would be an extreme and unforeseen measure. We hope that under no circumstance that we have to enforce the community standards to this degree.
The idea that this entity can both enjoy people not to harass and photograph, then secure indemnification from future harassment with the use of those photos is one of those things I think they call “unconscionable” in courts of law.
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
>”Please cite a single Metaverse-related conference that has these rules — there aren’t any.”
>Hmm, shall we use the way back machine to see how you are now suddenly attempting to disqualify information you have been given in a futile and juvenile attempt to keep anyone from proving you wrong?
>I think we shall!
1. Most conferences do NOT have these rules, Reality. They simply do not. And those cited do not have ALL these rules IN TOTAL. Do the anime people have a rule that you can’t ask a queestion more than a minute? Do the medical people have wierd and vague clauses about ‘harassment’? And so on. No, there are no conferences rules *LIKE THIS*
2. No one has cited any Metaverse conferences yet.
3. I’m not qualifying anything in the slightest. I said “conferences,” and I have *yet to see* a single conference sited that has these rules in this way, with this track record, nor seen any in this field. Case closed.
Nice try though! Hey, how are the minutes coming along from the XXVII session of the International Assembly of Lamers Living in Their Moms’ Basements? It’s delayed, and many are waiting.
Nacon
Jun 29th, 2007
Prok said “Tenshi, could you find an example of any indication that I’d be prone to violating these rules, based on past behaviour?”
Not only Tenshi can find a few… many other people like myself can find your similar history behavior.
Prok said “Nice try there, fuck-face.”
Prok said “Especially coming from an anonymous asstard like yourself? Hello?”
Prok said “In the future, Reality, kindly eat a shut-the-fuck-up sandwich, mkay? buh-bye!”
Prok said “Bluesapphire, adjust or die yourself.”
Prok said “You have an M.O.”
Prok said “attention ho”
Prok said “Get a job, and get a haircut, too, son.”
Prok said “And Parsiful, you are a lame, pathetic asshole who cannot publish with a Second Life name.”
Prok said “Now I know I’m not alone when I say that you are a raging fucktard”
and… possibility my favorite find on SL Herald….
Prok said “I don’t particularly care for you, and were I the type of person who would hold a grudge, I might also consider dropping by and screaming jibberish at you until you banned me.”
Prok… you’re a bitch, get over it.
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
Prokofy dearie, you’re talking out your ass again and just digging a deeper and deeper hole.
Point one in your above response? academic. There are rules – period. The text of said rules and which ones are present has no bearing here. try again please.
Point two? Also academic. You asked for conferences – you got them dearie. The type of conference has no bearing on this topic. Please try harder in the future to alter the criteria to attempt to maintain your position.
Point three? More bullshit from you. See my responses to one and two above.
As for your closing? Be a bit more original dearie, or is it impossible for a member of the Society of Deluded Deranged Persons who Live in a Fantasy world incapable of being original?
By the by, I am rather enjoying the opportunity to throw your own attitude back in your face: your lessons for today? Knowing when to recognize your own issues and learning when to walk away.
So far?
You’re failing miserably.
Anonymous
Jun 29th, 2007
“Coco, there are two concepts here that both you and Prokofy do not seem to understand:
“1. It is their convention – they get to decide what happens there.
“2. such things as the harassment rule are common sense and often part of an agreement of the unspoken, unwritten type.”
I understand these two things. Why are you bringing them up? If anything, they prove how dumb the whole thing is.
Obviously, it’s their convention, as nobody else would do such a thing. If they are so scared of their attendees, they ought to stop having conventions.
Yes, behaving oneself is common sense, which is why it’s overkill to put it in a “Terms of Service”, for a convention, for God’s sake. And we all know how they plan to use and interpret “harassment.”
Mainly, though, from a PR standpoint (and I don’t think the organizers have considered this) it makes their convention sound about as much fun as going to the dentist.
coco
Mark
Jun 29th, 2007
–Is that an adults conference or the participants are limited to kindergarten kids?–
Well, we have Mulch making provocative and vague threats with regard to SLCC, and we have Prokofy threatening to make hand gestures at people, so, hmmm…
Kahni Poitier
Jun 29th, 2007
Prok: Quit bitching and just don’t go.
You’re such a pro at organizing your own conventions, why not hold your own “no-rule” convention. I’m sure you’ll have NO problem organizing it. You’re a pro at this, right?
Quit being a whiny bitch.
Just don’t go if you don’t like it.
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
“I understand these two things. Why are you bringing them up?”
Why am I bringing them up? Simple coco – apparently you do not understand, otherwise your next comment – “Obviously, it’s their convention, as nobody else would do such a thing. If they are so scared of their attendees, they ought to stop having conventions” – would never have been made.
“Yes, behaving oneself is common sense, which is why it’s overkill to put it in a “Terms of Service”, for a convention, for God’s sake.”
Apparently Coco they felt they needed to state what should be common sense to everyone. Overkill? Nope – they’re making damn sure that not a single person can claim it was not written down anywhere if someone does end up being harassed or harassing others. Your statement is clearly a reaction not fitting the context and logic behind adding such a clause. In addition this segment of your statement – “And we all know how they plan to use and interpret ‘harassment’” – indicates a certain level of paranoid thought which causes you to attribute a motive that ‘everyone’ supposedly knows is there … when such a motive does not exist.
“Mainly, though, from a PR standpoint (and I don’t think the organizers have considered this) it makes their convention sound about as much fun as going to the dentist.”
This is about the only point I agree with you on Coco.
Bubbles LeVar
Jun 29th, 2007
Prokofy, the very idea of ‘community’ means rules. Usually either the majority or the most vocal enforce their rules and values on everyone in the community. If you don’t comply then you’re not part of the community and labeled ‘deviant’ by that community. Fact of life, sir. Question is, if you’re labeled deviant by this so called community, why are you going?
Simon Lameth
Jun 29th, 2007
“5. With the exception of Phreak Media and its subsidiaries, recording of video or audio of any sessions or live performances is strictly prohibited and subject to legal action. We are bound by both union rules and contractual obligations. This does not apply to news coverage and interviews or incidental documentary footage, B-Roll and background images. It is not permissible to rebroadcast any performance, panel or track.”
What?!
Doesn’t that contradict with itself? Basically, this says “You can’t tape anything, but if you’re in the “news”, go ahead, just don’t tape during any preformance, panel, or track”.
Can I go and tape things, since I work for the “news”, in both RL and SL? Does it have to be aired on a television to count as “News”? If so, can the Chicago media put unused footage on their websites?
Csven Concord
Jun 29th, 2007
“jump on the bed.”
And I thought “uberstud” was a joke. Uri, you old Yeltsin, you.
Tenshi Vielle
Jun 29th, 2007
“Tenshi, could you find an example of any indication that I’d be prone to violating these rules, based on past behaviour? You know as well as I do that it’s other people who have taken my picture, defaced it, and harassed me endlessly and mercillessly with it. It’s other people stalking me, calling me at home in RL, and even taking a picture of my door. It’s other people forcing their presence on me and not introducing themselves before imposing a fishy handshake. Ugh. For you to imply that these rules need to especially apply to me lets me know that you’re in the usual SL hall of mirrors where you’ve head such a drumbeat of propagagnda you are no longer in touch with anything resembling the truth.”
Oi, I wasn’t necessarily speaking about you. There are plenty of other people that play on SL that need those rules as well. You can whine all you want, but you can’t cry that those things weren’t unprovoked. If you don’t want to shake hands with anyone, DON’T go to the damn party.
But since you’ve already registered, have a nice time.. just stay away from the people you don’t like, and vice versa.
Inigo Chamerberlin
Jun 29th, 2007
Hmmm. Prok’s clearly loosing it – senile dementia maybe?
I’ve attended conferences going back 10-12 years that restricted attendees with regard mic time, photo/video/audio recording. Professional conferences. In the real world. Where it’s nothing unusual.
I guess that might come as a shock to anyone who’s experience of conferences is limited to those where hour long spittle spraying harangues are considered de rigueur? Where pulling out a flamethrower and napalming anyone you don’t much like the look of on the spot isn’t frowned on?
Oddly enough I’ve never found such venues appealing – nor the sort of people who attend such fantasies.
I’ve always stuck to sane, sensibly run conferences, with professional agendas. Probably to my eternal loss – but at least I’ve escaped catching nasty diseases or being barbecued on the spot!
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
>Prokofy, the very idea of ‘community’ means rules. Usually either the majority or the most vocal enforce their rules and values on everyone in the community. If you don’t comply then you’re not part of the community and labeled ‘deviant’ by that community. Fact of life, sir. Question is, if you’re labeled deviant by this so called community, why are you going?
What is labeled “deviant” by one self-styled, self-organized “community” of an oppressive nature like this is completely normal and even encouraged in another community. There are multiples of communities in SL, not just one community. They have very different values. One community values technology, tribalism, paganistic rituals of comformity, insularity, and oppression of outsiders. Other commmunities value the humanities, inclusiveness, secularity or organized religion with liberal values, openness, and tolerance of outsiders.
Which “community” better represents Second Life?
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
>Prok said “Nice try there, fuck-face.”
Prok said “Especially coming from an anonymous asstard like yourself? Hello?”
Prok said “In the future, Reality, kindly eat a shut-the-fuck-up sandwich, mkay? buh-bye!”
Prok said “Bluesapphire, adjust or die yourself.”
Prok said “You have an M.O.”
Prok said “attention ho”
Prok said “Get a job, and get a haircut, too, son.”
Prok said “And Parsiful, you are a lame, pathetic asshole who cannot publish with a Second Life name.”
Prok said “Now I know I’m not alone when I say that you are a raging fucktard”
Good work! Now…go back…scroll back…and find what people said BEFORE that to me FIRST. There’s a good girl! TIA!
>Prok said “I don’t particularly care for you, and were I the type of person who would hold a grudge, I might also consider dropping by and screaming jibberish at you until you banned me
You’ve mixed up the taglines on this one.
ugh
Jun 29th, 2007
reality, if you’re going to give prok crap for being unoriginal can you stop spouting “dearie” every 3 words? You sound like a broken record, and it’s hardly original.
Wait… DO you live with your parents?
ugh
Jun 29th, 2007
“Other commmunities value the humanities, inclusiveness, secularity or *organized religion* with liberal values, *openness, and tolerance* of outsiders.”
LOL good one!
Prokofy Neva
Jun 29th, 2007
>Hmmm. Prok’s clearly loosing it – senile dementia maybe?
>I’ve attended conferences going back 10-12 years that restricted attendees with regard mic time, photo/video/audio recording. Professional conferences. In the real world. Where it’s nothing unusual.
>I guess that might come as a shock to anyone who’s experience of conferences is limited to those where hour long spittle spraying harangues are considered de rigueur? Where pulling out a flamethrower and napalming anyone you don’t much like the look of on the spot isn’t frowned on?
>Oddly enough I’ve never found such venues appealing – nor the sort of people who attend such fantasies.
>I’ve always stuck to sane, sensibly run conferences, with professional agendas. Probably to my eternal loss – but at least I’ve escaped catching nasty diseases or being barbecued on the spot!
Hi, wise guy! I’ve already organized 4 conferences this year — I guess I’ve been overfulfilling my norm.
Of these, one was open to the public, the others were in a field that naturally by itself would limit attendance but in principle any interested party could attend.
At least one had some very, very diametrically opposed antagonistic forces at it. I spoke at yet a few more, and had a variety of open-to-the-public or more restricted settings.
In none of these situations were photos restricted; the press came to several. In none of them was any rule about “one minute” installed; people naturally limited themselves or in at least one case a moderator had to give one of the antagonists the hook, but that merely required a professional and organized moderator, not some draconian measure put into place in advance chilling speech.
If I were to explain the details and speakers and settings, Inigo, who is a bloward dilettante, would be red-faced and embarrassed. I’m not required to explain the details, I can only say that his mad caricature of me as some kind of haranguing idiot with spittle and flames is just plain retarded. He knows better than that.
These rules do not exist as the norm; not in this collection; not with this intent; not from mediocrities like what we have running SLCC.
We definitely need another set of people running SLCC, who are more professional, inclusive, and organized, so that they don’t, like scared little kids organizing a gang, cook up rules to keep out anyone who might criticize or confront their incompetence. If better management isn’t brought in, that avoids these scandals and idiocities already plaguing the SLCC process, better management will eventually come forward.
I love it that in Europe, there are multiple SLCCs run by multiple organizers some in competition with each other.
Nobody has a franchise on an SLCC. And that’s just how it must be — SL is simply too big to restrict it to a small pond with the same old croaking frogs in it.
If you hold a public meeting, if the venue is open to the press, you can’t cook up restrictive rules like this for the media. The media is something you encourage, not discourage. I’ve been in situations with large and complicated events, where either the media has misbehaved, or some patrons have been angry at the media, and you have to plan for these things, and handle them — but you don’t handle it by kicking out reporters.
Reality
Jun 29th, 2007
“Good work! Now…go back…scroll back…and find what people said BEFORE that to me FIRST.”
dearie? Might want to lay off on your little attitude problem there – you’re still failing your lessons miserably.
Much worse than that however is that you actually think that the treatment you are getting can be limited to one article or venue: See, some people actually tried to be polite when commenting to you or addressing you dearie. What did you do? You attacked them.
Another failing mark for you now that I come to think of it dearie: People skills. You’d think that as old as you claim to be you’d have learned that having good people skills and not ripping into those who make the attempt to be polite to you is a good thing.
Ah well – maybe you’ll learn a bit better in summer school eh dearie?
Csven Concord
Jun 29th, 2007
“Now…go back…scroll back…and find what people said BEFORE that to me FIRST”
Oo! Oo! I know one! I know one!
“>Prok said “Nice try there, fuck-face.”
Came after this: http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/06/if-youre-going-.html#comment-74209022
>@ Artemis
>
>It does seem as if favoritism knows no bounds. e.g.:
>
>”After a Linden staffer force-teleported Prokofy Neva into the event”
>http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/06/sl-4th-birthday.html
Csven Concord
Jun 29th, 2007
We should play this game more often:
“Associate the Prokofy Insult to the Victim”
With the towers of verbage and number of targets, this could last y_e_a_r_s.