The Alphaville Herald

181 Responses to “‘Broadly Offensive’ Raid in Blister; Lindens Review Teen Anime Paintings”

1. 

   anon
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   >>It’s actually evidence of the correctness of my position that my effigies are burned, so to speak, by the perpetrators of the Big Lie.

   LOL, you’re far from correct, ever. Get over yourself.
2. 

   DaveOner
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   Wow, Prok. You actually believe your own hype. I thought that was just a Linden thing!!

   From the sounds of it we live in different worlds. From the sounds of the responses you tend to get, your’s is a much more solitary world. It’s like talking to a drunk when you’re sober.

   “you’re a 20-year-old asshole griefer; I’m a 51-year-old accomplished writer, among other things. Shut the fuck up.”
   “No, you fucking illiterate mediocrity.”
   “Yeah, I step back, asshole, I step WAY the fuck back and I swing hard and hit back hard.”

   Yeah, sounds like you found Jesus, alright. These are definitely the kinds of things you hear from people who are full of love and compassion…or are you Catholic?

   You’re not actually championing against any great social injustices. You’re looking for fights and painting a big target on your ass…all on the internet. That’s not activism.

   You are an inside joke throughout SL.

   Your time and negative energy could be better spent in the real world fighting crusades against real world issues…but maybe that’s too much for you to handle these days. Either way you’re hopeless in your current state.
3. 

   Prokofy Neva
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   I have to chuckle to myself with an inside joke given these silly comments, when I contemplate what I actually work on in RL and actually have accomplished and continued to accomplish. And for that matter, what I accomplish in SL.

   Say, are you the DaveOner who is a 23-year-old from Buffalo agitating about the “Auschwitz-like” “violation of free speech” that the threat to free Internet radio constitutes? It seems so.

   “These are definitely the kinds of things you hear from people who are full of love and compassion…or are you Catholic?”

   So is this typical of the nutty, bigoted things you say, that Catholics aren’t — by definition of their creed — full of love and compassion?

   Well, what do you know? What do YOU accomplish? Who are YOU? While it may seem ineffective in this or that particular flame war, I think what I’m about is an overall fight for a space of freedom on the Internet that cranks like DaveOner would only close. In order to have diversity of opinion, you simply have to have them embodied, and robustly so — it can’t all be peaches and cream.
4. 

   DaveOner
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   WWJD, Prok?
5. 

   Lisae Boucher
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   Just something slightly different. Sapphire Oh provided this screenshot:
   * http://i18.tinypic.com/6ba4nyc.jpg

   After all these days, this image is still annoying me since I was NOT the person who added those missing child images to my land. Neither did my girlfriend. So I would like to know if there is someone out there who knows who did put those posters on my land. Is there anyone who checked this information? Because this is one question that’s still unanswered. And several people felt provoked by those images in context with the other images on my land. Yet until now the person who is guilty to putting those missing children images on my land has not been found. Yet…

   So, who is spamming Blister with these missing children posters?
6. 

   Prokofy Neva
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   WWJD, Prok?

   Um, I think if Jesus were dealing with a 23-year-old ankle-biting forum dweebs from Buffalo who heckled Him constantly or asked inane, mendacious and provocative questions, He’d answer stuff like:

   “I have meat to eat that ye know not of”.

   or

   “The poor ye always have with you.”

   or

   “Let the dead bury there own dead.”

   Or He might say something penetrating as in this story:

   “Go, call your husband, and come back.” The woman answered him, “I have no husband.” Jesus said to her, “You are right in saying, ‘I have no husband’; for you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true!”
7. 

   DaveOner
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   I know He wouldn’t say “you’re a 20-year-old asshole griefer; I’m a 51-year-old accomplished writer, among other things. Shut the fuck up.”

   There’s a plank in your eye, Prok.
8. 

   Prokofy Neva
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   Jesus might well overturn the table of a money-changer in the temple, in fact, but then, what would you know? You’re not Jesus.

   And here’s a *stick* in your eye: you’re a 23-year-old asshole forums stalker; I’m a 51-year-old accomplished writer, among other things. Shut the fuck up.”

   Better?
9. 

   Lisae Boucher
   

   Jul 18th, 2007
   

   Prokofy and DaveOner,

   I’m sorry that I have to say this but this name-calling that you both are doing does set the maturity that this whole article is going to. If you don’t like age-play then stop behaving like little children, okay? Grow up!

   One more note. Michael Linden has just confirmed again that is is not legally possible for Linden Labs to disclose any information about this whole issue. Not even if I give them explicit permission to disclose each and every detail. They came, they saw, they left. For all of you who have witnessed the whole event, this should already be clear enough, okay?

   And it’s actually interesting to know that the same laws that protect Prokofy and this story is also the same laws that protect my art. It’s just another form of Freedom of Speech. So go ahead and defend this freedom, Prokofy. I might disagree with several of your comments but I would also protect your right to disagree with me.
10. 

    Csven Concord
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    First words I ever heard a Catholic priest say were: “Goddamn Libyans. We should nuke them off the face of the earth.”

    My roommate, another non-Catholic, and I were standing outside the rector’s partially opened door. He’d never met a priest either and so we were both a little hesitant. When we heard someone on the other side yell that line out loud, we gave each other a “WTF?” look and had to stifle our laughter. We’d just finished a week of military training and were checking into our regular dorm on campus and wondering what a priest was like. Turned out that was our introduction to Father Miceli, the one who lived in the dorm and ran things. He was watching television and engrossed in news of the problems in the Gulf of Sidra back in ’81. Apparently he was little upset.

    Always thought that was funny.
11. 

    Susan
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    Conflicting reports suggest that…

    ie. it’s an unsubstantiated rumour.

    I’m really unhappy with this article. It’s bad form for a newspaper to print very serious allegations about someone with no evidence to back it up.
12. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    >Conflicting reports suggest that…
    ie. it’s an unsubstantiated rumour.
    >I’m really unhappy with this article. It’s bad form for a newspaper to print very serious allegations about someone with no evidence to back it up.

    No, it’s a good idea to print allegations about public figures and victims when their names become known from many sources, and when public actions by those in authority are at stake, that have public consequences for everyone. A very good idea. Or you never have a free society and those in power run roughshod over those who are victims.

    Victims may later decide to pick themselves up and dust themselves off and make common cause even with their persecutors for all kinds of wierd human reasons, but that doesn’t mean that the free media shouldn’t just keep doing its job.

    Mentors and volunteers, persons cleared and selected by SL to be in a special supervised group with its own internal communication channel which Lindens listen to and contribute to are not “not credible sources” and what they say is “not news” but news. When they gather in large numbers, when they multiple abuse-report, when they collude with hostile neighbours, it’s news, that’s for sure. And you have to keep trying to get the story, and if it turns out they had no case, and there is nothing offensive, that’s great, but that doesn’t mean you take the passive, complacent pose of the cautious, circumspect and calculating lawyer that Benjamin took over this story. Lawyers don’t bring you a free society; free media does.

    I’m glad you have such high standards for your news sources and newspapers, Susan, but I’m not sure they’re well-applied here, or that your characterization of something “low” is in order. If you are “troubled” by the Herald, I would suggest, then that you go to…um…let me think. *Maybe* Reuters. For example they have an excellent story up this week both talking about the LL announcements of money-laundering and an ill-conceived remark about jihadists in SL in the Economist:

    http://secondlife.reuters.com/stories/2007/07/12/alarm-bells-ring-again-about-virtual-terrorism/

    But they just don’t publish that many stories on Second Life *life* every day. Some tend to be about corporate hypervents. Others are Let’s see…can anyone think of any news source that isn’t bought out by a company with a vested interest, or run by people with a vested interest, that also does hard-hitting, investigative reporting on Second Life. I mean, the Blingsider is filled with marshmallows, fluffer-nutters, and cherries on top. Clickable Culture used to be pretty reliably good, but they don’t cover SL hardly anymore (there is a good post questioning the Metaverse Republic, however this week).

    Name a single other news source that has at least attempted to cover the story of how the Lindens not only made this policy, but have ALREADY confiscated material under it (that we don’t have the stories yet on, only the police blotter) or about the worrisome indications of the volunteers’ role in the “broadly” offensive.

    No, there just aren’t these imaginary perfect newspapers that everyone wishes would exist that have teams of well-paid reporters 24/7 who can follow a story relentlessly and deliver it with every loose end tied. And it’s not because Herald reporters are poorly paid and do the Herald after their RL and even SL jobs.

    Why? Because no newspaper would work under these conditions, which are like a Russia or a Nigeria, with everybody on the take, no reliable sources, gagged sources even, secrecy, insiderism, scandal — it’s just not possible to run a NEWS-paper (as distinct from a public relations house organ, or a PR newsire type of company/tech talk operation) and do a credible job of it if you cannot publish allegations and rumours.

    That’s why I think Urizenus’ original instinct in founding first the Alphaville Herald, then the Second Life Herald, was absolutely spot on. Run it as a tabloid. Have all the lurid stories about prostitutes and drug dealers and crooked cops. Have the “mom hurls tot from balcony”, “pol pays for secret love nest” — everything. Do it all. And bat-boy, and fattest pet cat, too. It’s the only way.

    Rumours about the application of “broadly offensive” criteria are absolutely news. Definitely. News you can use.

    And I think your notion of how RL, professional media covers rumours is simply uninformed by actual reading or reflection, and simply unencumbered by practice.

    Again, let me print the lede in question because in the hysteria and the length of the comments section, people forget to simply read what’s there:

    “Tipped off by some newbie helpers who staff a monitoring network with Linden support, Linden staff may have seized or “force-copied” anime paintings said to contain what was deemed illegal child anime pornography from a cabana tonight in the working-class water sim of Blister — leaving only adult nude amateur art mostly made with a 3D modeling program: Poser.”

    No false allegations have been made. “May have” and “deemed” were used to make certain that it was reported as uncertain, and as a rumor.

    I still have no reply to my query to Lindens about this story. So while Lisae has had her say — over and over again — I personally will not be adding an update about a conversation that for me is only a rumour, and one from a source that seems rather to be a vested and interested party.
13. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    >I’m sorry that I have to say this but this name-calling that you both are doing does set the maturity that this whole article is going to. If you don’t like age-play then stop behaving like little children, okay? Grow up!

    At your tender age, with the shenanigans *you’ve* been up to all over this thread, the order to grow up applies to you more than anyone, my dear. If DaveOne calls me names and uses all the generic tactics that ankle-biters with no standing use, I’ll bite back. This isn’t “mom, he hit me first” — it’s just a report. Only force is what can be understood by people like this; I use it.

    >One more note. Michael Linden has just confirmed again that is is not legally possible for Linden Labs to disclose any information about this whole issue. Not even if I give them explicit permission to disclose each and every detail. They came, they saw, they left. For all of you who have witnessed the whole event, this should already be clear enough, okay?

    No, it’s not. And Michael Linden didn’t say that to ME, which he could well do. I asked him for a statement. He could say “Linden Lab does not disclose information about disciplinary actions blah blah”. But he didn’t, oddly. So I can’t even be sure that any of this is true, now, can I? Let’s all apply some standards for news evaluation here, now, shall we? I think it’s wonderful that you and Michael appear to have established this erm…rapport…as two politically-correct personages Keeping SL Safe Together, but I didn’t get to use any uh…eavesdropping equipment on this, on or off my land (I don’t have any lol) so I’ll just have to be content with this story appearing in the comments because I have nothing on it.

    >And it’s actually interesting to know that the same laws that protect Prokofy and this story is also the same laws that protect my art. It’s just another form of Freedom of Speech.

    Oh? Are you circling back now on what you said earlier lol? Why just this morning it was all about getting me fired, shutting down the Herald, calling typepad.com etc. etc. and making me *pay* because reporters should be strung up by the nearest lamp post for talking like that! Blah blah. Funny to suddenly be having an ephinany *now* that free speech applies to volunteers making abuse reports and allegations; reporters covering them doing that; and artists with pictures of naked men with dicks out ogling girls. They’re all part of the scene of free speech, for better or worse.

    Perhaps it dawned on you how it would be seen calling for the Herald to be shut down when it was the Herald championing your right to the art, your right to be unmolested by crusading Volunteers, and the Herald making a demand that the state and its chosen semi-official vigilantes be held accountable for their overzealousness, and for you to be crusading against a reporter you don’t like merely because they asked YOU to account for yourself TOO. That would look pretty retarded if you did that, eh? Fought to close down something that tried in good faith to cover an effort to close down something you were doing?

    And yet your totalitarian instincts here are very common among your cohort — and it’s the kind of thing that makes Terra Nova writers scream about any scintilla of pressure to be placed on sexually explicit and even extreme content by the Lindens, yet remain deadly silent about Lindens’ pressure and silencing of political or economic speech.

    >So go ahead and defend this freedom, Prokofy. I might disagree with several of your comments but I would also protect your right to disagree with me

    Wow, the Voltaire of Blister.
14. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    Thank you, Susan. Just shows that there are quite a few more people thinking that this is not a very well-written article.

    The facts weren’t that difficult again. The Lindens came, they saw, they left again. According to the Lindens, that should already indicate that nothing special or urgent was going on. And it doesn’t matter how often this is repeated but some people are just unwilling to accept these facts. Some people just can’t admit they are wrong.

    And me? Since LL told me there were no TOS violations, I can conclude that I did nothing wrong thus I have nothing to apologize for. As I said before, I have removed the offensive material from Blister since I am new in that area and don’t want to upset those who have established themselves already. I am considering to buy some more land in that area even. I’m just going to wait and see. If the price is right then I might start building a new mall in that area, even. And considering the current exchange rate for Euro’s to Dollars, and from dollars to L$, I think it’s actually a bargain at this moment for me.
15. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    Quote: And you have to keep trying to get the story, and if it turns out they had no case, and there is nothing offensive, that’s great, but that doesn’t mean you take the passive, complacent pose of the cautious, circumspect and calculating lawyer that Benjamin took over this story.

    But many reporters would then at least do a follow-up story to make it clear that there was nothing offensive. Many reporters don’t wait for the victim to write their own stories and explain the whole thing but they listen to the victim themselves and put the facts straight.

    Quote: Lawyers don’t bring you a free society; free media does.

    But in my opinion, real Free Media is almost impossible to find since many reporters tend to be biased. Every person has his or her opinion but a reporter needs to try to stay neutral on every topic since he’s not writing an article about his opinion but he’s reporting on some events. If a reporter is biased then that will show up in the article.

    Quote: it’s just not possible to run a NEWS-paper and do a credible job of it if you cannot publish allegations and rumors.

    True, but many reporters do first collect the facts before writing an article. That way, they can avoid having to change the title of the article when their facts turn out to be incorrect. Furthermore, all reporters are supposed to listen to the story from both sides. This article showed the events just from a single side and you never interviewed me or my girlfriend. However, you did report about us without even having a short chat with us before publications. Reporters do at least attempt to contact the main players in their articles.

    Furthermore, as a reporter you will have to accept that there will be criticism. You just have to accept that instead of complaining about people who complain about you. You’re a reporter who is just doing a job. Just keep your stories neutral unless you want to give your opinion. And when you do give your opinion then make it clear that it is your opinion, and not some fact that you’re reporting about.

    Quote: Tipped off by some newbie helpers

    Actually, that should already be enough to realise that this source might not be very reliable…

    Quote: I still have no reply to my query to Lindens about this story.

    And unfortunately I think their reply will be that they are not allowed to disclose this information. The Lindens just can’t share any information about this case with anyone. Not even reporters. Do you also know why? Because when they make any public claims, those claims could be considered company policy and Linden Labs could be held accountable for that. That’s also why the rules about porn, nudity, ageplay, BDSM and whatever more are so vague.

    Quote: If DaveOne calls me names and uses all the generic tactics that ankle-biters with no standing use, I’ll bite back.

    Well, consider this… I’ve gone through a lot of verbal abuse for the last 5 days and I still manage to stay calm! That is because I am above this all. If you bite back, you’re just stepping down to lower yourself to the level of abuse. Because name calling is a form of abuse. As a reporter you should be above that! And if you can’t stay calm every time when someone starts to bite you, well… I don’t think journalism would be a good job for you in that case.

    Quote: Oh? Are you circling back now on what you said earlier lol? Why just this morning it was all about getting me fired, shutting down the Herald, calling typepad.com etc. etc. and making me *pay* because reporters should be strung up by the nearest lamp post for talking like that!

    Can you even find any part where I claim all this? What I did say was this: You know what? I will report this to the webhost. Let’s see if he too considers this free press.
    I’ve had a reply from Dreamhost too about this, btw. They provided me some further information about how and where to report the complaints after which they are likely to close the whole site. Problem is, it would close down the whole Herald and not just this article. Since there are also some good reporters at the Herald, I’m unwilling to cause it’s destruction by continuing my reports.
    But it would be a good idea for all staff of the Herald to reconsider your position within the whole team if you continue to write stories this way.

    Quote: that free speech applies to volunteers making abuse reports and allegation

    Yep. They have that right. And if they just continue to report about something that’s not a violation then it’s more likely that any future reports from them will just be ignored. However, verbal abuse is not free speech. It’s abuse.

    Quote: Fought to close down something that tried in good faith to cover an effort to close down something you were doing?

    Actually, I just don’t like the way you are fighting against this kind of abuse that went on. You behave in exactly the same abusive way as those others. And the biggest problem is that the Herald is not just your media. There are several other writers who write stories for the Herald. In the end, I think it’s up to the owner and/or the editorial team and whatever other staff the Herald has to reconsider if you still qualify for the job as reporter. As Dreamhost already suggested to me, it might just be easier to contact your ‘boss’ instead.

    As a reporter you tend to have very low values. It’s almost as if you consider this just another popularity test and you just want to be number one…
16. 

    DaveOner
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    Lisae,

    I’m pretty much just having fun with the old coot, letting her hang herself with her own hatred and paranoia. I also didn’t resort to the name-calling and ignorant profanity that she uses as an easy fall-back when she can’t respond to another’s points and questions with any logic or reason.

    I do agree with you that you both have the same freedom to express yourselves and I feel that freedom should be protected at all cost. As irresponsible and malicious as Prok and her “writing” usually is the question remains “where do we draw the line?” If we can silence this “accomplished writer” of the internet then what’s stopping people from silencing those with legitimate concerns that just happen to not be popularly accepted? It’s a dangerous game indeed.

    Prok fails to understand (or accept) that she runs the risk of putting herself in the same category as the few over-zealous volunteers that wanted to decide what was good for you and your land and had to resort to attacks and insults to try to further their moral crusade.

    It’s unfortunate in the case of the volunteers that LL continues to let the situation fester by refusing to drop the “broadly offensive” line and put together some specific guidelines to go by. This is only going to continue to get crazier for the more liberal, creative and expressive individuals and groups in SL. However, LL has the right to run their service and product the way they want with only certain laws and their own sense of ethics to worry about.

    Leaving ethics aside (as Prok so easily does) there is the fact that it’s never healthy for the state (or in this case the company running a virtual quasi-country) to get deeply involved in legislating morality. The result ends up being what you experienced, Lisae. People in places of even assumed minor authority will begin to make attempts to “clean up this one-horse town” and tend to let their emotions get the best of themselves. The waters get muddier and muddier and the state ends up with a mess on their hands.

    Ironically those same laws that protect your rights and Prok’s rights to expression also actually DEFEND people from some of the morally superior ideals Prok and these wayward volunteers have and wish to force on the rest of us. If Prok ever wrote the kinds of things she does in the real world where anyone important would actully notice them she would definitely be subject of a lawsuit or at very least barred from writing for that venue a second time…unless she became a writer for Bill O’Reiley’s show.

    Lisae, we all should have the right to express ourselves as long as that expression doesn’t limit another person’s rights to express themselves and go without being slandered and attacked.

    I’ve pretty much presented my point of view on this issue. Prok, you can go ahead and cuss, call me 23 and from Buffalo (strange choice of insults considering I’m not from Buffalo and even if I WERE 23 it would be a more appropriate age to be playing computer games than for a 51 yr. old mother), blaspheme, accuse, play the martyr, and otherwise rant. It just makes you a bigger target and gives your adversaries (real and imagined) more ammunition to use against you later.

    Jesus loves you anyway!
17. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    But many reporters would then at least do a follow-up story to make it clear that there was nothing offensive. Many reporters don’t wait for the victim to write their own stories and explain the whole thing but they listen to the victim themselves and put the facts straight.

    Well, I’m not “many reporters,” I’m me. I didn’t get to see the objectionable material because…it was put away under public and volunteer and Linden pressure. Lindens visited…didn’t say anything for 2-3 days…their volunteers filed abuse reports…neighbours urged that it be removed because indeed they DID find it “broadly offensive” AND YOU TOOK IT DOWN AS A RESULT. Hello? You CONCEDED that it was broadly offense and TOOK IT DOWN. When you are prepared to give me a URL where you are displaying it, and I see that it isn’t removed by Lindens, and even if AR’d again, the Lindens hold strong on this, hey, I maybe be able to do a follow-up story.

    Otherwise, it’s just a three-card monte manipulation here we’re dealing with.

    >But in my opinion, real Free Media is almost impossible to find since many reporters tend to be biased. Every person has his or her opinion but a reporter needs to try to stay neutral on every topic since he’s not writing an article about his opinion but he’s reporting on some events. If a reporter is biased then that will show up in the article.

    I disagree. Our motto here at the Herald is “Always Fairly Unbalanced”. Perhaps someone else can write an article that reads like a propaganda screed that celebrates you, pats the politically-correct Lindens on the back, is mute about the role the volunteers had in this sordid incident, and beams at neighbours who are supposedly living in harmony but who in reality are (depending on which version of your story or theirs we believe, variously out to cadge your cheap water or about to pounce on our chats with loggers or something).
    So…that reporter won’t be me, it will have to be someone else willing to write a story that is definitely biased.

    I don’t believe I’ve written a biased story, actually. It’s not written in the first person, is fairly brief and is just a story. If you berate and provoke me in the comments, I push back *shrugs*.

    Now, can a reporter still be good if they are biased? Sure. RL contains gadzillion examples of that. Entire newspapers are biased like the Guardian or TV channels like Fox TV, but that’s just how it is. Read/watch multiple sources if you fancy yourself as such a delicate reed that cannot tolerate bias — that is in fact only opinion. I think in the kind of journalism we have to do here in this closed society, bias isn’t the worst thing, or at least, a tendency not to trust the official pablum and the fangirlz propaganda.

    >True, but many reporters do first collect the facts before writing an article. That way, they can avoid having to change the title of the article when their facts turn out to be incorrect.

    My, such a wise one, and at such a tender age, and with such experience lol! I *did* collect the facts and publish them. In blogs, and in the 24/7 news cycle, you go with what you have. In fact this story was aged more than 72 hours on the volunteer chat, and more than 24 hours on the Blister raid itself. So, whatever. I stand by my writing and my news judgements and I won’t be bullied by fake and manipulative charges of poor journalism which are merely a blatant attempt to silence the press. I haven’t done anything wrong.

    My facts didn’t “turn out to be incorrect” on the main points of the story; the fact that is “incorrect” is the point about Linden’s seizing; they didn’t seize, they reviewed and possibl copied. But…we did’t print an INCORRECT statement about that. We printed a CORRECT one. It says, and I quote again:

    “Linden staff may have seized or “force-copied” anime paintings said to contain what was deemed illegal child anime pornography from a cabana tonight”

    Sorry, but you don’t get to FALSELY keep calling a carefully worded news report like that as INCORRECT. It has CORRECTLY stated the level of knowledge at the time between CONFLICTING reports and later verified the information, and put up UPDATES.

    These subtleties may be lost on your, as you are only interested in one thing: vindicating, white-washing, and elevating yourself. Understood. I’m not interested in that, however, so I say, sorry, stop pressuring me, you’re wrong, get your jackboot off the free media, and put out the goddamn guys with the dicks if you think they are “given the seal of approval by Lindens”, or shut up. Pretty simple stuff.

    >Furthermore, all reporters are supposed to listen to the story from both sides. This article showed the events just from a single side and you never interviewed me or my girlfriend.

    I wrote an IM to the owner of the objects I could see, your girlfriend. She didn’t answer for about a day, because she may have had a time/work difference, who knows. She finally answered just as Pixeleen was telling me about your hours long tour. Pixleen never did any separate story; perhaps she might, she often does that as she did with Woodbury U. So I’m sure you’ll get a very sympathetic hearing from Pixeleen, take up your concerns with her. My article, which she approved stands, and nothing about it is wrong, nor will it be pulled.

    >However, you did report about us without even having a short chat with us before publications. Reporters do at least attempt to contact the main players in their articles.

    No, they don’t. Not if they have the gist of the story and enough to go on. They don’t wait more and more, and have the entire thing become irrelevant, or scooped. It’s the Herald. It’s a tabloid. It prints rumours. Deal with it.

    >Furthermore, as a reporter you will have to accept that there will be criticism. You just have to accept that instead of complaining about people who complain about you.

    Why? Just as you can complain, I can complain. And frankly, I don’t see a single person complaining other than you, possibly your girlfriend (she didn’t appear yet) and this “Susan” you describe as being “like many people” but…those many people didn’t show up yet.

    And frankly, even if you flash-mobbed them to the scene — SL is good for that — you’d still be wrong. I wrote what was available at the time, in good faith, in careful language, which is pretty remarkable for a tabloid anyway, and I stand by what I did. And people who keep badgering, harassing, bullying and namecalling in the comments are merely trying to silence a critical voice trying to speak truth to those in power — which, BTW, these days, includes clueless 20-something gits who have been told that YOU is the new editorial board by Time Magazine and a million techno gizmo websites. If everybody’s a critic now, well, I get to be one too!

    No, sorry, but that dog won't hunt. I wouldn't ever bother to write if I had to chloroform myself to the evils I see in SL and couldn't pronounce on them. Community journalism is journalism with heart and passion and opinion.

    I've always felt the motto, "Afflict the comfortable, comfort the afflicted" is a good one for tabloid journalism. You usually don't expect to have to do the same action with the same news-maker in the same day, however.

    >Quote: Tipped off by some newbie helpers

    Actually, that should already be enough to realise that this source might not be very reliable…

    No, they are mentors. Cleared, vetted, approved, in special channels with Lindens.

    >Quote: I still have no reply to my query to Lindens about this story.

    >And unfortunately I think their reply will be that they are not allowed to disclose this information. The Lindens just can’t share any information about this case with anyone. Not even reporters.

    Um, duh, I get that. We all get that. They won’t say anything different. But…they didn’t say even THAT yet which makes me have to wonder a bit what’s up.

    >Do you also know why? Because when they make any public claims, those claims could be considered company policy and Linden Labs could be held accountable for that. That’s also why the rules about porn, nudity, ageplay, BDSM and whatever more are so vague.

    And that’s what people are complaining about. It gives them discretion to keep everybody off balance with overzealous volunteers; it enables them to run a really unaccountable operation; it enables them to make a million little subjective side-deals and special understandings and private politically-correct nods with people like you and I’m sorry, that’s unacceptable. Enough people thought the guys with the dicks out were no-go — I want to get to the bottom of the story and hear that it “passes”.

    >Well, consider this… I’ve gone through a lot of verbal abuse for the last 5 days and I still manage to stay calm! That is because I am above this all. If you bite back, you’re just stepping down to lower yourself to the level of abuse. Because name calling is a form of abuse. As a reporter you should be above that! And if you can’t stay calm every time when someone starts to bite you, well… I don’t think journalism would be a good job for you in that case.

    Where once I might not have bothered with comments, or ignored them, I don’t have that luxury now that there is a concerted effort, and not only here, to silence my critical voice. I simply will not go down without a fight on this, it’s too important. And I will hardly let some dizzy kid who one day gets sympathy from a muck-raking newspaper and the next day bites the reporter in the ass be the one to silence me. Hardly.

    This isn’t really bout biting, either. If people did typical forums stuff like, your article has too-big words, or you spell badly, or this is boring, or whatever, who cares? There are always cranks.

    But these are very big and important matters of principle. Again, I gather they are over your head.

    ?Can you even find any part where I claim all this? What I did say was this: You know what? I will report this to the webhost. Let’s see if he too considers this free press.
    I’ve had a reply from Dreamhost too about this, btw. They provided me some further information about how and where to report the complaints after which they are likely to close the whole site. Problem is, it would close down the whole Herald and not just this article. Since there are also some good reporters at the Herald, I’m unwilling to cause it’s destruction by continuing my reports.

    Well, feel free to report away, hon. That seems to be about par for your course, which is very unimpressive and not at all the kind of regime I’d like to live under in the Metaverse. I simply refuse to be bullied by threats from ANY reader about ANY story, mine especially, into silence, for their trying to blackmail people with threats of getting the site close. Report away. Good luck. If you imagine you can intimidate the owner and publisher into some sort of action, you’re mistaken. The Herald stands by its reporters. Deal with it.

    >But it would be a good idea for all staff of the Herald to reconsider your position within the whole team if you continue to write stories this way.

    No, it doesn’t work that way, each reporter takes responsibility for a story, and in this case, there is collaboration on this story. And the Herald is committed to freedom of the press, not collective propaganda-writing in the “interests of the community”. Your notion that Herald editors should engage in Chinese-communist-style self-criticism circles is pretty hilarious.

    What’s ominous about your whole stance and point of view is how suffocating the world would be if you did run it and did get away with your threats — only politically-correct, sanitized, group-approved, harmonous, “let’s keep SL safe together” sort of stuff would ever see the light of day. Horrors.

    >Yep. They have that right. And if they just continue to report about something that’s not a violation then it’s more likely that any future reports from them will just be ignored. However, verbal abuse is not free speech. It’s abuse.

    No, it’s free speech too, unless you can show that it meets certain tests. Now, the Lindens are likely to not do a thing about these volunteers and NOT punish them. They need them!

    >Actually, I just don’t like the way you are fighting against this kind of abuse that went on. You behave in exactly the same abusive way as those others. And the biggest problem is that the Herald is not just your media. There are several other writers who write stories for the Herald. In the end, I think it’s up to the owner and/or the editorial team and whatever other staff the Herald has to reconsider if you still qualify for the job as reporter. As Dreamhost already suggested to me, it might just be easier to contact your ‘boss’ instead.

    LOL well “contact my boss then,” hon. And I do want to point out that your methods are really reprehensible. It suggests that if a subject of a story doesn’t like the way they are written about, they can bring a reporter to his knees and threaten and bully them with firing, and intimidate them and their publishers. That’s pretty scary stuff. That’s can’t be allowed to stand.

    Especially when there is NOTHING WRONG with the story.

    >As a reporter you tend to have very low values. It’s almost as if you consider this just another popularity test and you just want to be number one…

    No, popularity test is HARDLY what ANYONE could accuse me of doing.

    I find you really odious, Lisae Boucher. Really disturbing not only in your own clueless, petty, and vindictive scare-mongering and self-justifying propagandizing. But scary just about what it indicates for the world if this kind of ideology takes hold.

    In part, it’s about the cultural/political/legal differences between European and American notions of freedom of the media. But there’s no *awareness* on your part that these even ARE cultural differences about legal differences in social and political systems; there’s only your shrill belief that you are “right”.

    More and more Americans like this dweeb in Buffalo also imagine that they can live in a sequestered, filtered, and suppressed media environment that spares them any discomfort or clash of opinion. The notion of “how things should be” in young people should inspire one with hopes of a better future. The sordid conformism and smelly orthodoxies of THESE young people make me think of the 1930s and all the isms of that day.
18. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    You may wish to stop *behaving like* the DaveOner, 23, from Buffalo if you don’t wish to be mistaken for this MySpace dude.

    Re: “Ironically those same laws that protect your rights and Prok’s rights to expression also actually DEFEND people from some of the morally superior ideals Prok and these wayward volunteers have and wish to force on the rest of us. If Prok ever wrote the kinds of things she does in the real world where anyone important would actully notice them she would definitely be subject of a lawsuit or at very least barred from writing for that venue a second time…unless she became a writer for Bill O’Reiley’s show.”

    I think it’s great to have “morally superior ideals”. Hey, we need more, not less of those in the nihilist, cynical world of 20-somethings and 30-somethings high on their own amplified Internet egos. I wouldn’t be the subject of anything except an interesting program.

    I don’t know what little DaveOner imagines is my morally superior idea here, but I’ll mention it again: it’s being able to report on the news without fear or favour. Without having to fear and be silent, or without having to suck-up and flatter newsmakers to get them to talk, then merely stick a template around their chat and post it. That’s what.

    It’s about being able to question even victims in stories, and of course question those in power. It’s being willing to keep asking — and asking again — hey, where’s the guys with the dicks out???

    And it means fighting back when people try to hobble and heckle you with petty harassment mainly to expose them as the kind of people YOU wouldn’t want running your SL.
19. 

    Solar Legion
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    Prokofy, people like you are the reason I stay away from any mainstream Church.

    People like you are the sort that start needless wars and cause conflicts over the smallest of things, even things that exist only in your own mind.

    People who profess that their moral code is superior to any other person’s moral code are the real problem …

    It’s time to move on and rejoin society.
20. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 18th, 2007
    

    >Prokofy, people like you are the reason I stay away from any mainstream Church.

    Um, bless you, child.

    >People like you are the sort that start needless wars and cause conflicts over the smallest of things, even things that exist only in your own mind.

    So I guess everyone should never have a different opinion, or at least have one only for five minutes until YOU take over?

    >People who profess that their moral code is superior to any other person’s moral code are the real problem …

    I don’t say *my* moral code is superior. It’s not particularly some shining of glory. But I believe *that there is something higher than this or that person’s moral code* — and that’s where you don’t get it. You imagine yourself to be in touch with “the light” and you need to “set me straight” lol.

    Look at yourself!

    >It’s time to move on and rejoin society.

    um, what is society? And why do I have to join it? Who says so?
21. 

    Solar Legion
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    You know something Prokofy? I’m going to put my responses to a few select parts of your attempt at a witty response to me in clear cut English. That way it will not go over your head.

    “So I guess everyone should never have a different opinion”

    first of all, find where in my comment I said this word for word and add it to your response. That challenge placed down we can move on to something a bit more direct: I encourage other people to have a differing opinion, however your right to voice that opinion stops the moment you thrust it into a person’s face, unasked, and attempt to pass it off as some universal truth.

    “I don’t say *my* moral code is superior. It’s not particularly some shining of glory. But I believe *that there is something higher than this or that person’s moral code* — and that’s where you don’t get it. You imagine yourself to be in touch with “the light” and you need to “set me straight” lol.”

    This one needs to be dissected sentence by sentence:

    “”I don’t say *my* moral code is superior.”

    You do not have to Prokofy, it oozes from each and every word you type.

    “It’s not particularly some shining of glory.”

    Glad to see you finally admit that – If you kept this in mind every time you type up a response people might actually make more of an effort to be polite to you.

    “But I believe *that there is something higher than this or that person’s moral code* — and that’s where you don’t get it.”

    Two things:

    1. The only thing above a person’s moral code is the Law of their own country – which is subject to a great many interpretations. Even a code based on faith must still adhere to the laws set down by the government.
    2. As shown by 1 above I certainly ‘get it’ Prokofy – you do not. Try a new line.

    “You imagine yourself to be in touch with “the light” and you need to “set me straight” lol.”

    You are missing crucial information here Prokofy: You do not know me. You have never met me in person. Therefore you have no evidence to back up this assertion. Nice try though.

    “um, what is society? And why do I have to join it? Who says so?”

    To answer these in order:

    1. Society is comprised of everyone else living either in this country or elsewhere in the world.
    2. You’re stuck in the mindset of a society decades old.
    3. Anyone that actually lives in modern Society.

    all of that clear enough for you? I’m not going to repeat it nor am I going to attempt to make it any clearer.

    Think before you respond … and make sure you have the required line showing where I told people to never have a differing opinion handy.
22. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Oh, I stand by my moral code, all right! I support it and promote it vigorously! As everyone should! But I don’t claim that it’s objectively some superior thing. That is, I behave as if it is superior, because I believe it to be right, but I don’t claim that my subjectivity can be elevated over the masses, over the housetops, to be the shining beacon. Of course, YOU say that, because you have an inherent sense of right that you imagine to be “the truth” and “what’s right” and think if you have a couple buddies on a forum rooting for you, why it’s “a truth to behold and self-evident”.

    But it’s not, never will be, and I certainly don’t intend to take up some sort of posture of relativity, doubt, hedging, caution about my own sense of what’s better. By God, I will live by my convictions!

    So sorry to disappoint, but I haven’t “admitted something” or caved to that never-ending quest of idiotic 20-something (or evey anything-somethings) on forums who want to conform, round off the edges, force to the knees, get to admit, prod into conceding error, etc. etc.

    You are missing crucial information here Prokofy: You do not know me. You have never met me in person. Therefore you have no evidence to back up this assertion. Nice try though.

    >”um, what is society? And why do I have to join it? Who says so?”
    >1. Society is comprised of everyone else living either in this country or elsewhere in the world.

    Well, what is “this country”? I’m not interested in talking about “America” with *you* because I sense you have no level of experience or knowledge that would suggest this would be worthwhile. Really, none at all, judging from your silly posts. So I won’t be discussing RL countries with you, if I can help it.

    Second Life? But what is any community or the community of SL? Again, visions are so out of sync here as to make it utterly silly to try to “share it” with someone like yourself who one hopes to have as little as possible to deal with, given their lack of interest and ability.

    >2. You’re stuck in the mindset of a society decades old.
    >3. Anyone that actually lives in modern Society.

    Many people who think they are modern are actually profoundly anti-modern. Revolution is a profoundly conservative force in our time.

    >all of that clear enough for you? I’m not going to repeat it nor am I going to attempt to make it any clearer.

    It’s juvenile and stupid, and I’m done! You’re definitely NOT interesting to talk to, because all you offer is bland conformism, aggressive policing of differences, lack of substance.

    >Think before you respond … and make sure you have the required line showing where I told people to never have a differing opinion handy.

    Anyone who can deliver little packaged homilies like “think before you respond” really deserve a conversation!

    What amazes me is what beligerent little tyrants are growing up these days, wagging their fingers, admonishing even their elders. I marvel. I Laugh Out Loud!
23. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Quote: It’s unfortunate in the case of the volunteers that LL continues to let the situation fester by refusing to drop the “broadly offensive” line and put together some specific guidelines to go by.

    Actually, I have asked Michael Linden if he could get the SL Blog people to write a little blog entry about what is considered abusive group behavior, especially during these kinds of protests. He’s going to try if there could be a blog entry about this but unfortunately even describing such guidelines in a very broad and generic way could be considered part of their company policy. Since Linden Labs considers itself to be nothing more than an Internet Service Provider, they technically can’t do much about contents, unless the contents violate the US laws. That also makes it so difficult for them to take actions every time someone reports abuse.
    Of course, LL could write down some stricter guidelines but when they do that, they risk their status as an ISP since they would actually be involved in the contents of their service. As it is now, they can’t do much more than respond to complaints. They are in a difficult position because of this.

    Of course there is the PG rating within SL, which is used to mark areas that are safe for underage teens. For these areas they can enforce some stricter rules. The same is true if they create other areas as safe havens for specific groups of people.

    Quote: I didn’t get to see the objectionable material because.

    Did you even look? I only removed it from the Blister area and since I’ve mentioned all my land locations inside my profile it would not be difficult to find the same images at other locations. And considering that I’ve sold a couple of pictures yesterday, it would not surprise me to see them pop up at many other locations in SL. They are copy/mod/transfer and they include the texture that is used so you can just take it out and put it on anything else you like.

    Quote: In fact this story was aged more than 72 hours on the volunteer chat, and more than 24 hours on the Blister raid itself.

    Now, this is something I find hard to believe. Why? Because I only added those paintings less than 12 hours before the first people from this mob started to chat about it on my land. Michael Linden arrived around 2007-07-13 at 12:00 PM. I arrived a few minutes later while he was still evaluating. Your original article has a time stamp of July 14, 2007 at 12:46 PM. Their visit lasted for quite some time too. So I would say it’s barely more than 24 hours old but feel free to exaggerate.
    Basically, you are combining two stories into one in this article. You try to report on some raid and you’re talking about how the volunteers are abusing their position. And you’re using a spectacular title to draw attention to your new article and use the story about the raid to voice your grievances over the volunteer group.

    Quote: I wrote an IM to the owner of the objects I could see, your girlfriend.

    Which is a bit funny, btw. The objects were deeded to the Lisa&Femke group. So is the land itself. And most objects have been created by me so I would expect that you would contact me instead. Femke actually doesn’t do any building. She’s mostly designing the artwork and making designs for all kinds of things offline.

    Quote: My facts didn’t “turn out to be incorrect” on the main points of the story

    You had to update the title for this article just because it was incorrect. Means it was incorrect from the first line already. What more should I say about that? Well, you did change it from SEIZE to REVIEW. And you call it Teen Anime but then you don’t seem to know what Anime really is. *Anime is an abbreviation of the word “animation”. Outside Japan, the term most popularly refers to animation originating in Japan. To the West, not all animation is considered anime; and anime is considered a subset of animation.*
    I had no animations in Blister so there’s still some inconsistency. Actually, the images weren’t even cartoon-like since I’ve seen some comments in my logs from visitors who thought these images were real! Thought it was me or my girlfriend together with some older guy. It took some time for some people to realize these were computer-generated images with just a real background.
    Actually, I consider that one of the nicest compliments that I’ve had that day. People who think the images are real? Then we’re doing a good job.

    Quote: But…they didn’t say even THAT yet which makes me have to wonder a bit what’s up.

    Maybe the Lindens are just ignoring you for now. Maybe they’re too busy evaluating all the other reports that were created. Apparently this mob filed hundreds of ARs and they now have to go through all of them, evaluate them and whatever else they do with them. Thing is, people flooded the abuse team with these reports which probably caused some major delays for them. Since they also have plenty of other reports to handle, it wouldn’t surprise me if they won’t even bother to follow-up on these reports very soon.

    Quote: I don’t have that luxury now that there is a concerted effort, and not only here, to silence my critical voice.

    However, have you ever considered what those people are all nagging about? In Blister, my neighbors asked me to remove some images they considered offensive and I complied. Except for a small group of fanatics, I haven’t had any complaints anymore after that. And even these fanatics are just ignoring me now.
    When people complain about your writing, you should not just defend yourself. You should think if they have a valid point and even if there’s a remote possibility that they have some good points, you could just adjust your writing style a bit. Pixeleen also wanted to write a story about this whole thing and she did interview me and my girlfriend. Well, mostly me anyways. As far as I know she’s still planning to write a follow-up story about this mob but what is more important: she’s examining all the facts first before writing it!
    You could learn from that!

    Quote: But these are very big and important matters of principle.

    Then stop acting as a child and stay calm while you write your responses! A few of your comments in this article clearly show that you’re upset and angered by some of the comments made here. And by responding in anger, you’re just feeding those who are trying to annoy you!

    Quote: No, it doesn’t work that way, each reporter takes responsibility for a story, and in this case, there is collaboration on this story.

    However, the reputation depends on the work of it’s reporters and if one of their reporters just uses the Herald to send out abusive comments and does a lot of name-calling then that behavior damages the reputation of the Herald as a whole. Such articles would just reduce the Herald to some cheesy tabloid magazines with headlines like “baby gives birth to two-headed alligator”, “Elvis lives, has a sex change” and “Aliens kidnapped Lindsey Lohan, replaced her by clone”.
    Well, you’re still free to write articles like that but would everyone who writes for the Herald be happy with such articles?

    Quote: It’s about being able to question even victims in stories, and of course question those in power.

    Yet you never questioned any victims for your story before publishing it. Not in the part about the raid nor the victims of the chatlog that you’re quoting. You reported on this story after hearing just one side of it.

    Quote: hey, where’s the guys with the dicks out???

    Try one of my vendors located on my other lands. Believe me, it’s there, somewhere. All I needed to do was create those paintings before I could make them available in my vendors.
    The young woman that people saw on the back of of the vendor is also available for sale as a cut-out in my vendors. And except for the vendor in Blister, none of the others have been removed.

    Quote: People who profess that their moral code is superior to any other person’s moral code are the real problem …

    Actually a good point. As a reporter you’re still entitled to your own opinion but you should make it clear that it is only your opinion. You make it sound as if everyone agrees with your opinions, Prokofy. You seem to think that everyone should accept your moral codes as the standard. Thing is, when people are saying that Free speech needs to be restricted then they actually have the right to claim this without having to expect some verbal abuse.
    Do you realize that talking about restricting free speech also falls under free speech? And if you want to restrict that, you’re actually doing that what you’re trying to fight against.
    Limiting free speech isn’t always a bad thing anyways. It has never been meant to give people the liberty to verbally abuse others. Thing is, allowing free speech also means that you can hear things you definitely would not like to hear. Let me just come up with some examples of things I can say that would fall under free speech, yet lots of people would strongly disagree with:

    1) All straight sex relations should be banned. They only serve for procreation which can also be done artificially. The idea of guys having sex with women is just sickening and violates the rights of all women.
    2) All people ages 50 and over are not allowed to write articles or blog entries on the Internet. The Internet is a medium for young, refreshing minds and these old people just don’t have proper insights.
    3) All breasts larger than a C-cup need to be surgically reduced since breasts of that size cause too many back injuries for women.
    4) All guys need to be castrated when they divorce their wifes.
    5) No couple is allowed to have more than one child and sterilization should be forced upon every couple after they had their child.
    6) People who have an IQ less than 80 are not allowed to play Second Life since they are too dumb to understand it’s concepts.

    Let me make one thing very clear: I DON’T AGREE with these 6 examples. But I still have the right to say these things and even defend them in each and every discussion. If you don’t like it and want to deny me the rights to voice my opinions, you would be the one restricting free speech…
    Go ahead, pick one of them as a challenge or come up with one of your own and I will defend that one even if I disagree with it! And please notice that I won’t lose my temper when people will comment on them…
    You could learn from this too…
24. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    For those who care (probably no one) there are still two persons protesting against the images on my land, unwilling to accept the fact that they’re not TOS violations. Can you call it a mob if it only involves two persons? Sasja Fitzgerald and aaltien Demina apparently feel it as if they’re on a quest to clean SL from all the smut that’s on it. And they have the right to protest about smut. For all others who share the same sentiment, feel free to join up with these two.

    However, do keep in mind that these persons are fighting against freedom of speech. Linden Labs concluded that my art does not violate the TOS. And many people don’t even consider it porn either. As a naturist myself, I have the freedom to express myself about my opinions. And I have freedom of speech in my artwork too. (And yes, Prokofy, you have the right to disagree with that.)

    Based on this article, I think it should deserve to be split into two different discussions that are closely related to each other since they both involve the right of free speech. One discussion would be about the kind of material that would be allowed in online communities like SL but also on the Internet in general. I haven’t read many comments here discussing what’s wrong with my artwork anyways. Just that some people consider nude images to be equal to porn, but then again in mature environments, porn is legal. People have commented that the girl is a teen and thus illegal.EightTEEN, nineTEEN??? Anyways, the word teen on the Internet has a very broad meaning and in general suggests adult persons with youthful looks. Do a Google search for the words Teen+sex and you’ll find almost 10 million pages.

    But who cares about this subject in this article anyways? This one is about freedom of speech and how this mob abuses it simply because they disagree with some contents. On how the group of volunteers who are meant to help people in SL are misusing their “powers”. So, question is, who feels up for the challenge to defend or attack my right to post those specific images on my land? Or should I just write an article myself, defending my opinions about nudism in Second Life and the right to use the Millennium teen model from Poser with a special adult-like skin?
    Would I have some reporter qualities inside? Hmmm. Interesting challenge. Well, okay. I think I will just do that and try to get some time to write an article for the Herald myself about nudist rights within SL. And of course everyone is free to shoot at it. Or agree with it… A bit tough to keep it SL related, though, since these images are not really SL specific.
25. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Lisae,

    You’re really out of your friggin’ mind here, and it’s likely because you are so extremely self-referential. I don’t oppose anyone’s freedom of art, duh, that’s exactly why I began covering this story in the first place, hello? Because vigilantese are trying to end it! You imagine I am some oppressive church lady out to end your fuck-you hedonism, but I’m merely here to comment some of its lack of morality and redeeming social value, not legally end it.

    You’re only endorsing the idea of “community values” and “community notions of broadly offensive” YOURSELF by conceding to your neighbours they have a point, and putting the art away!

    But there’s no such thing as a “community standard” that a real community in any sense has gotten to articulate and provide guidelines for and enforce in some kind of transparent and democratic sense. There’s only LL’s Community Standards, and their false invocation of “a community”.

    This is why the Lindens want to get out of the community standard business, BTW, if you listen to Daniel Linden’s video. They want somebody ELSE to enforce them — residents, RL police — they want to get out of this business, and who can blame them? It’s a thankless, miserable task.

    Now, why is the way they are going about this wrong, wrong, wrong?

    1. By being secretive and uncommunicative about what they allegedly *did* find as broadly offensive, they leave it ambiguous, and no one but smug and self-referential Lisae can be sure just what it is that has been “cleared” — they weren’t in on the conversation and *didn’t see the art*.

    2. That means people like these two abuse reporters feel there’s a sense of injustice, a miscarriage of justice, something “off,” when the Lindens cannot stand by their decisions, cannot be public about what they mean; and when Lisae herself colludes with this by winking and saying her art isn’t really offensive but she isn’t going to put it out, and having special Linden conversations. These two are *right* to feel as they do that they can go on ARing because it seems not a proper hearing was given this matter.

    Linden Lab did not “conclude that Lisae’s art does not violate the TOS”. That’s a false statement. No Linden will ever give some kind of blanket statement about a resident’s “art” in perpetuity, about all of it. What we might conclude is that *what Lisae still shows and was visible the time that Linden visited* isn’t against the TOS, but *what she put away citing not the TOS or Lindens but neighbours* might be. Because if it weren’t, and she had the clean bill of health, *the art would be out there now, wouldn’t it?*. If she already has 2 stalkers ARing her, what’s to worry about in terms of ARs? Put out the art, see if anybody else agrees.

    I find it very manipulative to be invoking Lindens constantly. The Linden who reviewed the scene is commenting on what is out at that moment, not all art of that person, and not all that is in inventory. And he’s done so not publicly or accountably so we are all in the dark.

    So this is specious bullshit, “And yes, Prokofy, you have the right to disagree with that” — because I don’t disagree that ART is free expression and likely even THIS art; I call on you to stop playing games and put out the art you think is NOT TOS actionable if you really believe that to be the case, yet you don’t. That suggests to me you’ve been brought to conformity with a community-dictated broadly offensive dictate, and that’s wrong; wrong for them to have it, wrong for them to be vague, wrong for you to lie about what’s happening here.

    >One discussion would be about the kind of material that would be allowed in online communities like SL but also on the Internet in general. I haven’t read many comments here discussing what’s wrong with my artwork anyways.

    No one can speak in general “about your artwork” as that is not the subject of this conversation, Linden Lab’s actions, or anything whatsoever. LL responds to *specific images* not “Lisae’s art style”. And residents see *a specific painting with two guys with dicks out* and they AR it. They see multiple questionable *specific paintings*. This is not about “art” it is about specific offensive images.

    >Just that some people consider nude images to be equal to porn, but then again in mature environments, porn is legal. People have commented that the girl is a teen and thus illegal.EightTEEN, nineTEEN???

    Again, if this picture involving eroticism of an alleged 18 year old has been *cleared* put it out, and shut up, and stop whining “Oh, I’m being considerate of my neighbours,” because in doing so, you *concede the right of the Lindens to have vague TOS/CS applications, and you concede the right of neighbours to be broadly offended whenever they feel like it about nothing*.

    >Anyways, the word teen on the Internet has a very broad meaning and in general suggests adult persons with youthful looks. Do a Google search for the words Teen+sex and you’ll find almost 10 million pages.

    People associate the Millenium images with definitely under 18.
    So again, stop the coyness, the distractions, the generic discussion, which aren’t relevant. It’s about *specific images*.

    But who cares about this subject in this article anyways? This one is about freedom of speech and how this mob abuses it simply because they disagree with some contents.

    No, it’s about how the Lindens made a vague rule; they poorly informed their volunteers how to police it yet encouraged them to police it; some were overzealous evidently in going out of their way to police it; a mob formed to harass someone they felt was out of line; that person caved to the mob and then covered that action up by saying she was being neighbourly; she then claimed the Lindens exonerated her. It’s those last two items that are suspect here, and will lead merely to perpetuating the same problem.

    >On how the group of volunteers who are meant to help people in SL are misusing their “powers”. So, question is, who feels up for the challenge to defend or attack my right to post those specific images on my land? Or should I just write an article myself, defending my opinions about nudism in Second Life and the right to use the Millennium teen model from Poser with a special adult-like skin?

    I already wrote an article that defends your right to post images free of harassment? You’re in its comments, soaking in it. You just fail to grasp that’ what it’s about. That’s the bedrock of my concern. People have the right to post art images, under RL laws of their country. Yet the Linden have a vague TOS and an unaccountable abuse report system. This is being wielded to suppress people’s art.

    Defending a right to free expression doesn’t mean defending a cultic view about RL or SL nudism. You can do that all on your own with your freedom of expression. I don’t have to defend that to defend the *right of* freedom of expression. Express away. You have that right. I don’t morally agree with you and will argue that your views should become the basis for civilization or imposed on others, God forbid. Fine distinctions, apparently too subtle for your grasp.

    What you imagine in your parochial and sectarian notion of things is that unless I pick up the cudgel and *side with you* and *agree with* your sectarian viewpoint, I’m not defending freedom of expression. And that’s ridiculous. Go ahead, spout what you like, put out pictures. I’m the first to write an article about how people shouldn’t be vigilantes against this and the Lindens have a vague rule that is poorly enforced. Um, that’s the article that I wrote already, duh.

    But the reason it’s not to your liking is that you want me to promote *you* and promote *your particular warmed over silly world view* and I refuse. I won’t be *forced* to *adopt* your point of view. Express away. Don’t call it bad journalism, however, if a journalist simply refuses to agree that you have a viable world view. You don’t. It’s also a hugely inconcistent one as you fear being honest and putting out the paintings to really clinch this whole story. Instead, you punt and put them away and invoke “neighbours”.

    >Would I have some reporter qualities inside? Hmmm. Interesting challenge. Well, okay. I think I will just do that and try to get some time to write an article for the Herald myself about nudist rights within SL. And of course everyone is free to shoot at it. Or agree with it… A bit tough to keep it SL related, though, since these images are not really SL specific.

    I’d be bored to tears about some cultic nudist rant. I can go anywhere else on the Internet for that.
26. 

    Solar Legion
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Thank you very much Prokofy for responding in a manner that only proves each and every point I have outlined and only proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you are incapable of listening when others outline for you the rather poor attitude you seem to love using in each and every one of your responses.

    You have failed to provide the required evidence showing where I stated word for word that no one else should ever have a differing opinion, you have failed to grasp even the simplest of concepts and instead chose to attempt to brush off this shortcoming of yours.

    I’ll be waiting for the day that someone manages to get through that rather thick skull of yours Prokofy … Until then, enjoy the strife you cause.
27. 

    DaveOner
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Guys, Prok doesn’t get it with her 50+ something cynicism. In her cartoon world she’s an idealistic “reporter” with the light of truth to shine on us all and no amount of “persecution” is going to keep her down…even if the persecution is a result of the slander and misinformation that is so commonplace in her ranting.

    How DARE they point out inconsistencies in just about everything she posts?? She’s an accomplished writer! Too bad trolling and spamming the comments on blogs about a fake world doesn’t count as accomplishing anything in the real world. I still wonder why you waste all this energy on a computer program when there are actually legitimate causes to be so angry and slanderous about. Did PETA kick you out for being to sensationalist or something??

    What she will never understand is the difference between having opposing points of view to debate while still keeping civil and sincere versus barking at and dehumanizing anyone that doesn’t agree with her…or agrees with her in a way she doesn’t like.

    In her world, it’s us 20 and 30 somethings with no responsibilities like raising children that ruin it for all the people like her that want to sit on SL all day and complain about how badly it’s run instead of handle their real lives.

    She’s too old to change so it’s really pointless to keep going on with her. The clay has dried and we’re stuck looking at this angry, malformed ash tray as long as we keep hanging out by this coffee table.

    I’d leave but this couch is so comfortable and the company is good overall. It more than makes up for the cat smell!
28. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    >I still wonder why you waste all this energy on a computer program when there are actually legitimate causes to be so angry and slanderous about.

    If you feel that way about “a computer program,” why do YOU waste time posting at the Herald? This is always the inherent contradiction in every forums finger-wagger.

    In fact, while these nuances are hard for an extremist and absolutist like yourself to grasp, I work on BOTH real-life causes and issues AND SL causes and issues. Yes, I can walk, and chew gum, at the same time. I’ve stated that now in this thread multiple times; on other threads multiple times. Your concerns should be alleviated as I work for, am paid for, am deeply engaged in, real-life causes in my real-life jobs — and always have been. So do please get *a life of your own* and get off mine.

    Sure, I’m happy to “bark at and dehumanize” people who use names, who are disparaging and abusive in their posts, as a way of fighting back. If they “merely politely disagreed,” that would be one thing, but they aren’t disagreeing or expressing *substance* they are picking about style or manner or impugning “no life” or “cat boxes with ammonia” instead of tackling the issues. So ridicule and abuse is the only language they understand. I’ve done the analysis already above illustrating all the kind of lousy and low tactics that DaveWhiner uses. If he missed it the first time, too bad.

    If the company is good at this “couch,” I’d fully expect to see multiple, interesting, substantive posts in all the *other* stories. But I don’t. Because there isn’t anything substantive to say.

    At this point, I’m going to invoke my rule — if you wish further responses to your attacks, 1) supply an SL name 2) convince 2 other people not you and your alts to supply their SL names and post separately in support of some specific charge, which I will then answer.
29. 

    Solar Legion
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    for those out there reading any of this, you’ll see at the end of the more recent comment Prokofy has made, the usual cop out.

    In the real world a person has a grand number of choices for dealing with confrontation and debate. for most people however the choices are narrowed to responding to each individual, without the need for such silly things as seen above or to simply ignore each individual.
30. 

    Sasja Fitzgerald
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Well…
    We are grievers so Miss Boucher say’s .
    Those places are plubic.
    You have vendors there, so how did we grieve ?
    We wanted people to see the art that’s there.
    That’s not grieving, that’s public help.
    And in no way we are related to Linden or any group at all.
    We are parents, people, who come up for children.
    A pedophile in SL is most likely a pedophile in rl, I came to sl to get away from rl for an hour or two.
    Oh and Miss Boucher say’s she’s german ????
    She’s Dutch.
    And I say that with a big shame.
    We didn’t grieve anyone, we just teleport people in, I do that every day.
    Iff that’s grieving shoot me.
31. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Solar Legion, I realize you aren’t very bright, so this will be my last comment, more to appeal to an audience needing education on these issues, as you are hopeless.

    When you say, “People who profess that their moral code is superior to any other person’s moral code are the real problem …” you’ve just deprived everyone of being able to HAVE their opinion. You’ve told them they *can’t* believe their moral code is superior, that they must water-down, concede, step back, repudiate *their opinion*.

    But…they don’t believe that. They really think their moral code is demonstratively superior. So I’m afraid if you’re full freedom of *opinion* you can’t take that away from.

    Like so many narrow-minded uneducated geeks with mere technical facility, you imagine that having an opinion is a kind of relative thing that you concede while a debate is in motion, but at some point, some superior being like yourself forces everyone to concede that they “only have opinions” which “might not be correct or even are incorrect” and that they “better stop promoting them so hard because they’re only opinions”.

    Then that superior being — your self — pronounces those people who claim superiority — that is, the merely very consistent opinion-holders — as “the problem”.

    As if you are in a position to declare other people and their opinions as “the problem”. You imagine them to be the intolerant zealots, yet it is you, too, and more than they, because they don’t demand resolution, and you do.
32. 

    DaveOner
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    “At this point, I’m going to invoke my rule — if you wish further responses to your attacks, 1) supply an SL name 2) convince 2 other people not you and your alts to supply their SL names and post separately in support of some specific charge, which I will then answer.”

    Who gives a shit about your “rules”? This isn’t “the Angry Old Lady That Wears a Hobbit Cape in Public” Show! And from the looks of the comment sections of your “articles” I’d say your little rule has already been mostly satisfied. Besides, I wasn’t even talking to you, Prok. Mind your own business.

    And if it was true that you were ACTUALLY involved in any RL efforts then where do you find the time to come up with the bullshit you spew here? Although considering the way these “articles” of your’s come out it would make sense that they were just written on the fly with little forethought…

    As far as me, I’m not really expending any energy on this. This is kind of a “between other windows loading at work” thing I do. I go between this, YouTube and the news. But enough about me!

    I would post in articles that you didn’t write…if there were any!! For every article someone else puts up here you crap out like 5 of your own. and even then I can’t get away from the cat smell!

    I read the article about Linux vs. Vista running SL and you couldn’t help but be ignorant and negative in that article, too! No moral crusade to champion, no right or wrong to debate. You had to jump in and talk some stupid shit because there was a chance that all eyes weren’t on you for a moment.

    That right there tells me that you aren’t in fact trying to do good in the world or defend your journalistic integrity (or lack thereof) but that you are simply out looking to stir shit up and make everyone else as miserable as you.

    Too bad it usually only ends up with you looking like an ass when all is said and done.

    Anyway, what else you got out there, Uri? Anyone? Bueller? The Prok-tology Train seems to be running out of steam…
33. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Quote: I call on you to stop playing games and put out the art you think is NOT TOS actionable if you really believe that to be the case, yet you don’t.

    As I said before, the artwork is still available for sale at several places but not at Blister. It never violated the TOS nor does it even violate the law.

    Btw, you’re religious, right? Go read about Religion and Nudism at http://www.religioustolerance.org/nu_bibl.htm if you like…

    And some things that you definitely don’t want to see since these are nude pictures of young persons: DO NOT VISIT IF YOU DISAPPROVE NUDISM!
    http://www.purenudism.com/free/nude-fishing.html
    http://www.purenudism.com/free/nude-undressing.html
    http://www.purenudism.com/free/naturist-mom-and-daughter.html
    http://www.purenudism.com/free/nude-pool.html
    http://www.purenudism.com/free/topless-sunbathing.html

    In case you’re wondering, this site exists since 2002 and is providing lots of nudism images and even sells them as CD collections. See also http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://www.purenudism.com for a more complete report about this site. This site is linked to organizations in the USA yet it has it’s servers in the Netherlands. Where I also happen to live. And to be honest, if you think the pictures I’ve used were bad then the images on purenudism.net and purenudism.com will really seem horrific you you since some of the girls that are visible in this photo collection are much younger than the model I’ve used.

    I don’t really approve the images on the PureNudism site since it seems to expose nudists too much and has a big focus on younger women. The only problem is that the site itself might be legal but depending on where you live, visiting this site might be a criminal offense for you. Not for the site owners. So again, don’t visit the site itself.

    They do have an except from the US laws about childporn which can be found at http://www.purenudism.net/cp.html if you’re interested.

    Btw, people call it illegal. They call it child porn. So here’s a link to the law:
    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sup_01_18_10_I_20_110.html
    Don’t worry, the site if safe…
    And then of course there are the definitions for these laws which can be found at:
    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002256—-000-.html

    Now, go visit my land, find the vendor that still sells my artwork and go check if I have violated these laws. It is illegal when the image displays sexually explicit conduct” and this is very clearly described in the law. (Because laws can never bee to vague.) So you might not like it but these images are still within the limits of the laws. They aren’t even borderline. Just nudism images.

    And do I really have to continue to explain why I don’t put them back in Blister?

    Okay, back to the purenudism.com site. I don’t approve the way this site operates simply because a lot of the images involve young adults, mostly women. It is unclear to me if these pictures were taken with the permission of the models who appear in them and their parents, when the model is underage. It is also a commercial site and considering the price of their products I assume they make a good profit out of these sales. Actually, they promote a CD reporting on the Jr. Mini Miss Teen pageant election or whatever. Mini Miss Teen? Sounds quite young to me. Yet this material is legal too.
    My main concern is that these products aren’t sold to nudists who just like to look at artistic images. My fear is that some sleazy old guy orders these things and continuously starts to jerk off while viewing this material. So, I fear they will end up amongst perverts, which isn’t unlikely. Still, there are no laws that can stop the distribution of these images. And that is because these images are considered free expression or free speech. It doesn’t violate the laws concerning childporn so that makes it legal. It is legal thus it is protected by the same freedom of speech that you so dearly protect.
    In a way, I consider this site to be harmful to the true spirit of nudism. But that’s more because of the huge quantity of images that it sells and the fact that you cannot be sure that these pictures were taken with consent of the models. I also fear that pictures of me are also available on this CD since I have seen some photographers at the nudist beaches I’ve visited taking pictures. That also concerns me a bit. At least I never used any real models for my artwork. I used Poser/computer generated images. It does make a difference in my opinion.
34. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Prokofy, I’ve sent you a landmark of my vendor. Feel free to take a screenshot but I’ve sent it to you to compare with other nudist images. Keep in mind that these are the same images that the Lindens have seen and approved. If you think it is important to your story then you can share the SLURL since I cannot prevent that but I don’t need all kinds of people visiting my land just to look at these images and harass my visitors and customers. So I appreciate it if you won’t share the link. Why? Because I don’t need more abuse from people who don’t know what is and is not legal in this World.
35. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 19th, 2007
    

    Quote: People associate the Millenium images with definitely under 18.

    If that’s true then why aren’t there no less than three different -commercial- skin textures available for this model that include nipples? The names for these are “Ashlyn”, “Emeli” and “Vivien for Laura”. Available for a few $ at the DAZ3d site.
    Why is there a fourth texture for Laura named “Nicola” that even suggests some light pubic hairs? Also available on the same site.
    Why does the default Laura model even have the ability to give her pointing nipples?
    Why does the Laura-X-Inject poses exist, which can modify the appearance of Laura in numerous ways? These poses can turn Laura in an early teen, mid-teen or a late teen… (And basically just set her scale to 100%, 104% and 108%…)

    Quote: I’m the first to write an article about how people shouldn’t be vigilantes against this and the Lindens have a vague rule that is poorly enforced.

    Actually, I’m the one who is partly defending their rights to have a protest here and voice their opinions about my art. My only problem is that some of them just went further than simple protests and just continue to harass me. Some even “attacked” me and the land I own within SL. No one can approve that. But I disagree with you that they don’t have the right to protest against what they consider inappropriate. And yes, they also have the right to report the same images to LL when they disagree with them. As long as they follow the rules, no problems. Only a few crossed the line here.

    Quote: I work on BOTH real-life causes and issues AND SL causes and issues.

    Just makes me wonder what you did accomplish in the real world. You’re a professional writer, right? So what have you written about so far and how did people respond to those writings?
    Btw, this world has millions of so-called professional writers and some of them are just popular because people run out of toilet paper…
    Still, with professional writers you also have professional editors who will check the story and make sure the story is well-written. And that’s what I’m missing in your comments, Prokofy. Someone who will edit your articles and comments to make sure they’re not going to damage the reputation of the magazine itself.
    Because in the end, it’s not you who will end with any damages if someone holds this site responsible for violating the law by making false accusations. All that is needed is someone with a lawyer and the willingness to start a case in court. Unfortunately, that would stop the Herald. It would not stop your verbal abuse since you would just continue somewhere else.

    Some quotes from Sasja Fitzgerald, one of the biggest griefers out there…

    Quote: Those places are plubic.

    Plubic? Anyways, those areas are also considered mature land and Linden Labs will allow anything as long as it doesn’t violate the US laws. Or things they consider to be real, real bad taste…

    Quote: We wanted people to see the art that’s there.

    And as I’ve noticed, you did invite someone over today again to have a peek. You’ve done that a few times already and as I’ve noticed, not everyone seems to agree with your opinions.

    Quote: That’s not grieving, that’s public help.

    Actually, you are soliciting others to file complaints about something that is legal. That is also harassment and a TOS violation for which you’ve been reported. Again…
    I have ignored the people whom you invited to the area, btw. It just increases the amount of traffic which helps to increase my place in the search index. The number of customers I’ve had has tripled because of your invitations. And yes, they see the images. Yes, they are also saying a few things about you even though you’ve warned them about conversations being recorded. And no, I won’t disclose any information about what they have been doing or saying. That’s private.

    Quote: And in no way we are related to Linden or any group at all.

    Never said you were. The real volunteers have all quieted down already once they realized that LL does not consider my images a TOS violation. Btw, they did not just check the images on my land. They have access to my inventory so they checked the images there. That’s a lot easier for them…

    Quote: We are parents, people, who come up for children.

    Then realize this: as long as you’re wasting your energy on me there are people out there who are doing all kinds of violations and children who do need your help. By filing so many grievance reports all you’re doing is flooding the abuse system with reports that they won’t act upon to begin with. Yet they do have to spend time reading them and responding to them. You’re actually making things worse and you don’t seem to realize that.
    Furthermore, you are inviting people over to my place who might become customers of my services instead. In a way, you’re actively advertising my place, which I don’t mind. So go ahead and invite more people.
    Finally, since you consider those images to be childporn, I hope you also realize that creating snapshots of those images would be a violation by itself! You claim it is childporn and you collect images of it on your computer. Maybe you’re even sending those images to friends and relatives and thus you’re spreading around childporn. You do realize that that would be a criminal offense? And no, you can’t call yourself innocent when caught.

    Quote: Oh and Miss Boucher say’s she’s german ????

    Where do I claim this? Please show me where I claim this? Or else have your head re-examined. Again…

    Quote: We didn’t grieve anyone, we just teleport people in, I do that every day.

    Yeah, I’ve noticed the increase in traffic and the increase in sales. Thank you…

    Quote: Iff that’s grieving shoot me.

    Your intentions are however to harass me by getting more and more people to report this material. Did you also tell them to buy these images too? Because some have been spending some nice amounts at my place. I might actually make a big profit this month if you keep this up.
    And yeah, I do know you do this to harass me, hoping LL gets so many reports that they have to take any actions. Most likely they will just close your account for violating this little rule: “Given the myriad capabilities of Second Life, harassment can take many forms. Communicating or behaving in a manner which is offensively coarse, intimidating or threatening, constitutes unwelcome sexual advances or requests for sexual favors, or is otherwise likely to cause annoyance or alarm is Harassment.”

    You can read about that in the Community Standard. Or read the following from the TOS: In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not: [SNIP] “stalk”, abuse or attempt to abuse, or otherwise harass another user.
    Inviting others to my place like you’re doing is considered stalking.
    I hope LL won’t ban you. Your actions have a very positive effect on my own cash flow…

    Finally one final note. While we can all just complain about the bad writing skills of Prokofy, I think it would just be a better idea if the Herald has more writers willing to provide articles on a regular basis. With only a few writers actually writing for the Herald, it is no wonder that they have to tolerate Prokofy to fill at least some space. Remove all of Prokofi’s work and what will remain? Well, some better articles from SLHerald and some good articles from Pixeleen. Even with a reward of L$ 1000 per article, there aren’t many people here willing to write some.
    But dear readers, consider this… If there are more people writing stories for the Herald, the quality will only improve. And since we’re here to read, why not add to these stories too? DaveOner, you seem to have some decent writing skills. Would you be willing to write an article?
36. 

    Solar Legion
    

    Jul 20th, 2007
    

    Prokofy, you have failed to provide the required, word for word instance wherein I have said that people should never voice an opposing opinion. Instead you used your own interpretation of my words as your ‘evidence’ … No sale.

    In the future remember that when given such a challenge as the one issued that your interpretation of a person’s words is not valid evidence.

    Just as with any freedom out there Prokofy, your freedom ends where another person’s freedom begins – in plain English, since you have so much trouble understanding what is being said to you: a person’s right to voice their opinion stops when they claim their opinion is truth.

    The same is true of a person’s moral code.

    Now then, here is my suggestion to you Prokofy: You say you are done responding to me? Good – I suggest you make those words out to be truth.
37. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 20th, 2007
    

    Solar Legion, again, if you think you really have an argument (and you don’t) that I’ve failed to prove here that you are guilty of the charges yourself that you make against me (you are), and if you are so dense as to imagine that “word for word instances” are required, then find 2 friends and try to convince them, too, have their sign them names, and I’ll parse it some more. I think I’ve easily rested my case.

    There’s nothing that shows the paucity of thought, or the impotence of the writer, than a statement like this: “In the future remember that when given such a challenge as the one issued that your interpretation of a person’s words is not valid evidence.”

    Here’s where I get my clinching argument that you just aren’t very bright, and therefore not really a valid interlocutor:

    “Just as with any freedom out there Prokofy, your freedom ends where another person’s freedom begins” — this is a strange bastardization of the concept of “your right to swing your arm ends at another person’s nose” — a far more practice illustration of actual physical freedom and physical damage. Another person’s freedom to speech doesn’t trump my freedom to speech; both are guaranteed; one doesn’t “encroach” on another — this is laughable.

    > in plain English, since you have so much trouble understanding what is being said to you: a person’s right to voice their opinion stops when they claim their opinion is truth.”

    Here’s the heart of the tekkie-wiki and youthful idiocy fallacy. A person’s opinion and freedom of speech INCLUDES the right to claim their opinion is truth. That’s more than fine. People are fully entitled to claim their opinion is the truth — and others have to live with it, ignore it, or find their own truths. Indeed, this very statement *itself* is a claim of truth that is expected to trump others. It doesn’t. *shrugs*.

    >The same is true of a person’s moral code.

    Hardly. People adopt moral codes because they believe they’re moral, and superior. That isn’t to say they have the right to trump others with them, impose it on others. But belief that it is superior; articulation that it is superior is perfectly fine — in fact it’s an act that forums dweebs engage in constantly, and one in which Solar Legion is particularly guilty of. I’ve bothered to answer this ankle-biter again merely because it’s a very good exemplary case of the problem of people who simply aren’t very bright and adopt nostrums and maxims and absolutisms in their defense that are laughably indefensible.

    >Now then, here is my suggestion to you Prokofy: You say you are done responding to me? Good – I suggest you make those words out to be truth.

    Nope, I’m baaaaack and I reserve the right to return in self defense or to select a particularly obvious example of fallacious argumentation, like yours. However, you’re now marked as an obvious ankle-biter, thread-stalker, and fallacious argument user, and therefore a good candidate not to answer again.
38. 

    Solar Legion
    

    Jul 20th, 2007
    

    “Solar Legion, again, if you think you really have an argument (and you don’t) that I’ve failed to prove here that you are guilty of the charges yourself that you make against me (you are), and if you are so dense as to imagine that “word for word instances” are required, then find 2 friends and try to convince them, too, have their sign them names, and I’ll parse it some more. I think I’ve easily rested my case.”

    Prokofy, failure to provide proper evidence has proven that you are incapable of having any sort of debate whatsoever. You made a claim, I challenged you to find a point anywhere in my comment where I claimed word for word (again, your interpretation of my words is not evidence), you failed to provide this evidence. Your usual cop out is present as well I see – good job, coward.

    As to the rest of your response Prokofy:

    All Rights end when they interfere with another person’s Rights.

    An opinion stated as a truth and continually presented as such, including the manner in which you present your opinions, infringes on another person’s right to hold an opposing opinion.

    I do hate to break it to you Prokofy however an Opinion that lacks proper evidence (belief does not count and never has) is not a fact. It may be so to you or to another person but that changes nothing at all. see, you’re supposed to back your opinion up with verifiable facts – Facts that have no other interpretation, then and only then can you claim your opinion is fact. without the evidence required it either remains an opinion or becomes a theory – Imagine what would happen if every opinion in the Scientific community were treated as a fact before the proper evidence could be found to support it!

    See, my statement is at the very heart of something you apparently know very little about Prokofy – it’s called the Scientific Method. Look it up sometime, hmm?

    Your attempt to ‘correct’ me regarding moral codes shows rather clearly that you have no problem whatsoever in contradicting yourself. The entire nature of a superior attitude (such as the very same one you answer each and every comment aimed your way from literally everyone) is all about imposing your will, thoughts, opinions, morals etc. on another person! I’ve dealt with that type of person before Prokofy.

    Now for your closing statement:

    “Nope, I’m baaaaack and I reserve the right to return in self defense or to select a particularly obvious example of fallacious argumentation, like yours. However, you’re now marked as an obvious ankle-biter, thread-stalker, and fallacious argument user, and therefore a good candidate not to answer again.”

    Prokofy … You remind me way too much of chat room users who claim they have placed a person on Ignore (a very useful feature mind you) and then continue to prattle on and respond to the person that was just ‘ignored’.

    Your notions of ‘self defense’ are invalid here Prokofy – there’s nothing to defend against, merely a response telling you exactly what you failed to provide along with a few truths you seem very hard pressed to accept … That is unless they are working in your favor.

    You may use any cop out you’d like to avoid responding to me Prokofy – in the end that is after all what you do. find some new material however … The insults are getting rather stale.
39. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 21st, 2007
    

    Quote: People adopt moral codes because they believe they’re moral, and superior.

    And what are you doing now with your moral code, Prokofy? Where do you differ from those others?
40. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 21st, 2007
    

    Lisae, you’re the one with a profoundly aggressive and even abusive moral code, insisting that people adopt a nudist philosophy — or be considered “sick” in their reactions to nudes; demanding that people accept as innocent something they simply cannot see as such, and so on. It’s really quite offensive. So back off with it, and stop imagining that you have only sweetness and light and tolerance in your repetoire, and I’m some sort of church lady. It’s retarded.

    No, rights are rights. You're simply sadly misinformed about how rights and law work, possibly due to youth or lack of experience. In international law, there are concepts like in Art. 5 or Art. 30 of the UDHR that say that no one right may be used to undermine another right, i.e. this is widely invoked in discussions

    But rights that are "negative" in the sense that the state merely has to NOT interfere are not somehow trumped by this or that person's use of it. My right to free speech is a right that isn't somehow hedged, or limited, or trumped by your right. There's absolute no legal or philosophical or juridical basis for such a silly notion; it merely developed on forums as what you imagine is "correct" for "your tribe".

    >An opinion stated as a truth and continually presented as such, including the manner in which you present your opinions, infringes on another person’s right to hold an opposing opinion.

    Hardly. That’s about the most retarded thing I’ve heard in a long time. Again, absolutely no legal, philosophical or other grounds for this, but merely pulled out of your ass “just because it feels right to you”.

    There is no sense of the “manner” in which someone presents their opinion as being “a limitation” on another person’s right in speech matters. This is such a silly and subjective concept that it could never, ever stand up in any normal court of law.

    When a city can restrict the First Amendment as to “time, place, and manner,” that means it can restrict the Million Man March to march not at 5 pm in Times Square, but say it must go to Central Park at 12 pm, and cannot block traffic. It doesn’t mean that it can issue an ordinance that says Prokofy doesn’t get to be satirical or make up some shrewd nicknames for the risible characters of SL, because that might hurt somebody’s feelings and infringe on their feeling a comfort level required for their free speech. That’s patently absurd.

    >I do hate to break it to you Prokofy however an Opinion that lacks proper evidence (belief does not count and never has) is not a fact.

    Of course it’s a fact — a fact for me. And a fact that I’ve achieved after thrashing through the evidence and finding it so through direct empirical evidence, listening to experts, gosh, even reading Wikipedia. If boxers it is; by God, boxers it is, not briefs; if it is cloth, and not disposable; by God, we’ve established beyond a reasonable doubt that it’s cloth. Now, those are opinions in the abstract world of analysis of fact vs. opinion. That’s conceded — in the sense that all human knowledge is subjective and ultimately an opinion at some level due to the imperfection of human perception.

    But we don’t live and move in that perfect realm; we live in the imperfect realm of earth. And there, it’s more than fine for me or anyone else to say they find something to be a fact, and for them to promote it as the truth, and to insist that it is superior. People do it all the time. Indeed, you’re doing it RIGHT NOW yourself.

    If any of the adults on this forums, have these same issues, they’re welcome to discuss it with me, but I feel too much educational work would have to be done here to get DaveOner off his jag that other people can’t exist, have opinions, believe themselves to be right, etc. because he needs to trump everything and always be in charge.

    >It may be so to you or to another person but that changes nothing at all. see, you’re supposed to back your opinion up with verifiable facts – Facts that have no other interpretation, then and only then can you claim your opinion is fact. without the evidence required it either remains an opinion or becomes a theory – Imagine what would happen if every opinion in the Scientific community were treated as a fact before the proper evidence could be found to support it!

    I do back my opinions as fact, they’re just simply not to your liking and drive you into a frenzy because of your own narrow-mindedness. And here again, on scientific matters, you’re hopelessly incorrect — scientists float hypothesis all the time and try to check them. And indeed, that’s the hallmark of a free society as I am always saying here, a la Karl Popper: the right to be wrong, even strenuously and fervently wrong; and the right to float even a false or untenable hypothesis. You could never get at the truth in some really closed and rigged situations like Second Life without these concepts being honoured and I stand by them vigorously. DavidOner isn’t my idea of a scientist; he’s merely a forums fisker and fucktard.

    >See, my statement is at the very heart of something you apparently know very little about Prokofy – it’s called the Scientific Method. Look it up sometime, hmm?

    Um, yuh, champ, I’m familiar with it, and I’m invoking it on YOU because you are full of shit lol. Try to broaden out your Wikipedia sourcing into other sources and also even other pages within Wikipedia itself.

    >Your attempt to ‘correct’ me regarding moral codes shows rather clearly that you have no problem whatsoever in contradicting yourself. The entire nature of a superior attitude (such as the very same one you answer each and every comment aimed your way from literally everyone) is all about imposing your will, thoughts, opinions, morals etc. on another person! I’ve dealt with that type of person before Prokofy.

    Well, somebody has to stand up and follow through on their notion of superiority. God knows, YOU do it. And with so many errant, mediocre, poorly-educated, unthinking types out there imagining themselves to be superior, people like me have to work overtime : )

    >Prokofy … You remind me way too much of chat room users who claim they have placed a person on Ignore (a very useful feature mind you) and then continue to prattle on and respond to the person that was just ‘ignored’.

    I don’t place people on ignore. If I ever answer someone like you, after notifying them of being irrelevant, it’s merely to appeal to the fence-sitters and help the weak young minds reading the forums toward the truth : )

    No, you’re simply not a worthy interlocutor — semi-educated, not very thoughtful, a bully, imposing views, imagining that someone holding to an opinion is themselves the bully that *you* are — all pretty tiresome!
41. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 21st, 2007
    

    You just continue to contradict yourself, Prokofy. You are fighting for the right for everyone for free speech yet when you hear something YOU don’t like, you’re so easily offended and start claiming that something needs to be done about this.
    And yes, you have spoken out against those people who stormed my land in protest yet you don’t seem to defend their rights to protest, since even a protest is part of free speech. You just continue to push your personal moral code upon others and just don’t realize that you’re actually turning into someone similar to those mob members.

    Then again, your character is so easily to predict. You have your own moral code and hate everyone who doesn’t have the same code. So why do you even dare to think the rules don’t apply to you? Those volunteers used a volunteer channel for their protests. You are the one using the Herald for doing exactly the same thing. Yet you disapprove what they are doing while thinking you yourself are doing a good thing. But honestly, I don’t see the difference.
42. 

    Solar Legion
    

    Jul 21st, 2007
    

    Bah – Prokofy is a hopeless cause Lisae. The only thing Prokofy has managed to do is show a lack of reading comprehension.

    Which reminds me …

    Hey uh, Prokofy? did you miss the part where I stated that an opinion lacking proper evidence can be treated as a theory? Thought so – try actually reading an entire comment next time instead of dissecting a comment and looking only for what angered you.
43. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 21st, 2007
    

    Solar, Prokofy has the right to voice his opinion and I have the right to disagree with them. And the more Prokofy is saying, the more he’s just showing his inner demons. He’s clearly supporting Free Speech but when others exercise that right and he doesn’t like it, he suddenly changes his mind again. So Free Speech is apparently something only Prokofy has and all others just need to shut up.

    Actually, Prokofy is actually calling me manipulative since each and every argument of him has been hammered down and he’s actually running out of them. He blames me because he has no valid arguments left.
44. 

    Prokofy Neva
    

    Jul 21st, 2007
    

    Hey uh, Prokofy? did you miss the part where I stated that an opinion lacking proper evidence can be treated as a theory? Thought so – try actually reading an entire comment next time instead of dissecting a comment and looking only for what angered you.

    Um, “angered” isn’t what one gets reading the infantile Solar Legion; “amused” is more like it. An opinion about what is a fact may remain opinion in some higher realm; sure, with absolutism, reductivism, everything can be relativized and reduced to opinion; or even with merely a healthy dose of skepticism due to the imperfection and imperfectibility of mankind. But in a working, real-life situation, sure, people develop a set of facts that they hold to be true and self-evident. This is intolerable for Solar Legion, as he becomes hysterically frenzied at the idea that he can’t control other people with some sort of Internet pop psychology lol.

    Lisae is even more pathetic, frankly, but it’s the insolence and idiocy of youth. To say something like “all the others need to shut up” as somehow “Prokofy’s point of view” is silly, unsupportable, and sectarian. I think what Lisae means to say is that “Prokofy criticizes my warmed-over politically-correct sectarian ideas, and I don’t like that, and it makes me uncomfortable, and I can’t believe what I hold to be true and evident is being challenged, so I’m going to claim that Prokofy isn’t for free speech.”
45. 

    Solar Legion
    

    Jul 21st, 2007
    

    Once again Prokofy you make pronouncements while lacking the real evidence you need to support them: Personal knowledge of the person you’re labeling.

    To put it bluntly: Until you’ve actually met me, you do not have a single leg to stand on.

    Granted this is a two-way street …The difference however is that you’re not very well versed at making comments or any other sort of post without allowing your own emotions and beliefs to creep into each and every word you type.

    Once again you’ve responded without actually thinking or truly comprehending what has been said.

    Let’s rectify that shall we?

    Your opinions on some matters are not facts – They are theories, this is perfectly fine Prokofy. simple opinions are perfectly fine as well.

    A fact however is true no matter who voices it – The Law of Gravity is a Fact. Death is a fact. Aging is a fact.

    Your prognosis of me however is an opinion – you have no personal knowledge of me. Your interpretation of my words is just that – an interpretation, you have no way of knowing what my meaning is until it is clarified.

    The same can be said of much of what you write – and how people take it. The problem is the manner in which each article and comment is written. Any half-wit can write an article or make a comment that is filled to the brim with accusations based on interpretation, conjecture, half0truths, opinions and theories. Due to this it is not surprising that there would be persons making note and calling such articles and comments on what has been observed as well as a negative interpretation.

    What amuses me about all of this Prokofy is your observed tendency to lash out at anyone that calls your articles and comments into question. Anyone that dares to do so is instantly branded with whatever label you can come up with and is somehow instantly in the wrong.

    To be honest Prokofy – I pity you.

    All of this said …I’ll be leaving you alone now. I have little doubt that this comment will get some sort of scathing response and that you’ll attempt to twist each and every word around. I have little doubt as to your reactions anymore … I’ve seen them all before in so many people but never concentrated into a single person.

    Go with God Prokofy – and God Bless You.
46. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 21st, 2007
    

    Quote: I have little doubt as to your reactions anymore …

    True. Prokofy is very predictable. As a reporter he should know to first collect the facts before reporting about something. Instead, he just writes a story and apparently prays to God that he will be able to find some facts to back up his stories afterwards. And when God doesn’t fulfill his prayers then even God must be wrong, right? Because only one opinion counts in this world which happens to be the Book of Prokofy.

    Oh, well. Maybe Prokofy isn’t that bad when you really get to know him. I hate to admit it but I only know him through his articles and comments here. If he really behaves in a similar way in real life then he must be a very, very lonely person. And I don’t wish that to anyone. So I hope that he’s a better person in reality.
    As my girlfriend explained to me once, people do behave very different in forums and discussion groups like this online news magazines than they would in real life. Some feel it’s a tool to voice their opinions to the whole world. It gives them the idea of personal superiority over all other people. You can see people like Prokofy in almost every online forum where they are trying to gain control over each and every discussion. They are often referred to as flamers and have the tendency to just make remarks without having any facts supporting their claims. But in reality those people are just expression their personal aggression on the Internet but in reality they are nice and gentle persons.
47. 

    Aaltien Demina
    

    Jul 22nd, 2007
    

    Ehh Lisae i saw something very shocking,why put children on the bottom off the sea,hide them behind a screen? but i just reported something that is asked off us inhere.So i am not sure what you are trying to do now. You see no problem for you its normal, why keep talking inhere?
48. 

    Lisae Boucher
    

    Jul 22nd, 2007
    

    Aaltien, I have moved those images from below there to a vendor in another area where it is available for the public view. It’s location is even mentioned by the Herald so calling it hidden is not the right word. All I needed was a place to create the objects to add them to the vendor. Which I did.

    But can you explain to me why you continue to visit a location that has material that you consider offensive? And why you continue to invite others over for a visit? You know the Lindens know about it already and decided to not take it down.
49. 

    aaltien Demina
    

    Jul 24th, 2007
    

    Lisae, you banned me right after all the reports so i could not have been there,and i wasnt’t i was at one parcel, wich the LM was dropped on me, didnt send out a report from that one, why i figured,LL knows.And then i wasnt on your land cause also there banned. Anyway we have your opinion and ours.Second Life owns it inhere so it’s up to them.
50. 

    sasja Fitzgerald
    

    Jul 24th, 2007
    

    I quote Lisae Boucher ” As a reporter he should know to first collect the facts before reporting about something. Instead, he just writes a story and apparently prays to God that he will be able to find some facts to back up his stories afterwards. And when God doesn’t fulfill his prayers then even God must be wrong, right? Because only one opinion counts in this world which happens to be the Book of Prokofy.”

    Did you forget we raided that place with about 75 people who all saw the facts ??
    We also showed people the stores.
    Facts, facts, facts.
    It may be avaters, but we all saw the picture off the little girl in front off the miror with the naked grown up man behind her.
    Offcourse that’s gone now, smart move, but that doesn’t mean it was never there, the fact is you have taken down the pictures that would have got you banned.
    Oh yeah I’m drifting away from the thing i was going to say.
    The pictures are child AV in 3D, and that’s ok according to even some mentors as I read the comments.
    Why on earth do they ban the ageplay than ?
    That are only avaters too or am I stupid ?
    Imo LL is missing it’s own point here, and that point was ban child porn, that includes childpornography off child AV’s in my eyes.

    Oh and Lisae whe don’t visit places of yours and you know it, you banned us all from every place, and yes iff we want to show people your “art” we stand outside your lines.
    Can you tell us why you call us griefers when we only visit a public place ?
    Can you also define griefing ?
    You attack us with scripts on public land, outside your land.
    I see that as griefing, we have permission to be on that land, and you attack us.
    You wan’t facts think whe have enough facts to say that your in to childpornography, 75 people have those facts.
    Too bad Mister Linden isn’t as fast as you, you wouldn’t have hidden the real stuff than.
    Not too mention your rl website with the rl pre teens, almost all gone all off a sudden.
    You might fool a lott off people but not the ones that saw your so called artwork.

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