Saints of Hell MC Implicated In Second Life Content Theft – Part 1
by Alphaville Herald on 08/02/10 at 8:23 am
Motorcycle and parts theft copybot outrage!
by Coke Supply, Investigative Reporter
[In this multipart tale of dark dealings in the Second Life motorcycle and parts trade Coke Supply delves into the shady activities of Black Lisle, AKA BiackLisle, of the Saints of Hell Motorbike Club to reveal anastonishing level of complicity amongst the group's leadership withregards to the apparent theft of the most famous and skilfully crafted motorbikes ever created in Second Life. - the editrix]
Content creators Redtail Magic, Karyn Vaher, Trinity Hunghi, and HiiighJinx collaborated over a period of four months to create the LakhotaRocket, arguably the most highly detailed and realistic sculpted bobbermotorcycle on the grid. It has won first place in almost every singlecompetition that it has been entered into during 2009, making it one ofthe most well-known motorbikes ever created in Second Life. Thetrophies won from these competitions are shown in the image to theleft, alongside the real-life version of the bike that it was modeledfrom.
As you can see from the image below, this motorbike is a true work of art, painstakingly sculpted and textured by its creators over a period of several months to create one of the finest rideable motorbikes that Second Life has to offer.
The following image details the names of the creators and the build dates for all of the prims on the Lakhota Rocket motorbike.
Here is an exact copy of the same bike, sold at the Saints of Hell Motorbike Club's sim by one of their members, Black Lisle, AKA Biack Lisle.
As you can see from the images, the creation dates on the version of the bike provided by Redtail Magic span a period of around four months, while Black/Biack's version was created much more recently, and in less than ten seconds. Currently, Black/Biack's version of the bike is being sold for 2900 Lindens (100 Lindens less than Redtail's version), on the Saints of Hell Motorbike Club's group land, the Saints of Hell sim, owned by the avatar Sims Rang. Redtail Magic's Lakhota Rocket can be found in the Tamayo sim.
What makes this particular case of theft interesting, however, is that it appears that every one of the officers within the Sants of Hell group that I came in contact with, as well as many of its members, were denying any allegation of theft and were vehemently defending Black/Biack Lisle's innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
I first began my investigation into this story when I was contacted by a good friend of mine, Muziekfreak1980 Miles, who asked me to come and inspect the bikes in question and write this story on behalf of the original creators. So, I was teleported by Muziek to meet everyone involved in creating the original bike.
The first person I spoke to was Redtail Magic. Standing in front of the two bikes rezzed side by side, Redtail explained exactly how to tell the two bikes apart.
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Redtail Magic: Hi Coke. Thank you so much for doing this.
Coke Supply: You're welcome. This bike looks EXACTLY the same as the ones I was just looking at in the Saints of Hell store.
Redtail Magic: Yup yup.
Coke Supply: OK, start at the beginning please.
Redtail Magic: OK. I do sell most of the parts full perm for builders, but I DON'T sell the actual sculptmaps, so all parts on the bike should show as different creators. I can give you 4 examples of how to prove this is an illegal copy. One, all bikes and parts have a registration script to email me with the buyer and who was present at the time. Black Lisle – aka Biack Lisle – has never bought a full perm part from my store, nor bought a full bike sold at my store. Two, there are 3 prims on Biack's bike he should never be able to sell in his builds at all.
One is the headlight – it's incorporated into the handlebars. I kept that unique to the Rocket for sale. I don't sell those handlebars.
Redtail Magic: The next part is the arrow oil gallery. That, too, he should not be able to sell on legally in his builds. This keeps the Lakhota Rocket unique to other bikes being built here for sale.
Redtail Magic: The next prim is the most vital – the cables – as they will only ever fit my Rocket, so I could never sell them separately if I wanted to.
muziekfreak1980 Miles: Yes – on the copy, Biack made an error – the cable goes into the tank.
muziekfreak1980 Miles: In fact, the entire sculpt is off *points at sparkplugs on the copy*
Coke Supply: Yes, I saw that.
Redtail Magic: Third, this Rocket has also been entered into many bike shows in SL and it's won almost every one of those shows. So every bike builder out there knows this bike extremely well, and I have always been fully open about exactly who made the sculpts. So for Biack and the sim owner to say these are Biack's creations is just plain nuts. Fourth, you only have to examine the build dates to see that Biack's version was created in less than ten seconds.
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At this point, word had spread that a Herald reporter was investigating the theft, and a large group had gathered to give their evidence. I was being flooded with IM's, conversation transcripts, lists of names to investigate, and snapshots, many of which are displayed in this very article. Trying to piece everything together, I started to ask questions…
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Coke Supply: Who is this "Loon" guy??
Redtail Magic: Motor Loon? The biggest name in bike building and sculpts.
Coke Supply : And he got copied too? By the same group?
Redtail Magic: Yup yup.
Coke Supply : I will need to speak to him I guess.
Redtail Magic: I'm not sure if it was the same group, but I think so. Lincoln Braveheart got copied too. Black has Lincoln's chainguard on his bikes. Speak to Tater Skytower, too.
Coke Supply : Tater got ripped too?
Redtail Magic: Yup yup… his fenders. Zara Yip would be wonderful to talk to as well. She hates this lot.
Coke Supply : What's Zara's story?
Redtail Magic: She has a big sim and has a store of the big name builders here. She has some shout too. She's been copybotted but not sure who by.
Coke Supply : What does she build? Does she build bikes?
Redtail Magic : Yes, and sculpts, her own parts. Awesome and very unique designs.
Coke Supply : And she suspects this same group of stealing her work??
Redtail Magic : I'm not sure if the same group has copybotted Zara yet.
Coke Supply : Well, we can ask. Did Hiiigh Jinx get his stuff copied too?
Redtail Magic : Yes, he's filed reports too.
Redtail Magic : Group Notice From: LongHard Rhode – Spend your day with us for the New Product Lauch of the 2010 SLC Choppers by SoH MC Sargent at Arms and SLC
Designer Black Lisle.
Coke Supply : The Saints of Hell just sent that to their group? Are they talking about the stolen bike?
Redtail Magic : Yup. That's from their group.
Coke Supply : OK, I need the names of ALL the people associated with Black. I need to know who the main players are so that I can investigate them.
Redtail Magic : Black Lisle is also Biack Lisle. the L being an upper case I.
Coke Supply: Black Lisle's name is on the stolen items, right?
Redtail Magic : Yup yup. Both the Lisle names have been.
Coke Supply : So how does Sims Rang fit into all this?
Redtail Magic : She's president of the Saints of Hell Motorbike Club. As the sim owner, I contacted her to report if she knew one of her tenants was a copybotter. That's the first step in this sort of thing. Next step is contacting Black/Biack to confront them on copybotting. Next is an AR and DMCA.
Coke Supply : Well, just make sure you save all the chat.
Redtail Magic : I do, no probs. It's done automatically on my PC.
Coke Supply : Who is LadyLynn Zabaleta?
Redtail Magic : That's a new name to me. But judging by the way she interacted with Ezra, she's probably staff.
Coke Supply : LadyLynn ejected Ezra when he started talking about theft. She never indicated that it would be looked into.
Redtail Magic : No, they won't, they will say to the last that Black made the bike.
Coke Supply : So Sims Rang is the Saints of Hell's group owner and sim owner too, right?
Redtail Magic : Yup yup. Or so she said when I asked her.
Coke Supply : Ah, so this is all happening under her watch? Noted.
Redtail Magic : Very much so. Sims said she saw him make every sculpt, and that she even has the copyrights. She also said that she is a coyright lawyer.
Coke Supply : OK, so I've got 4 names here – LongHard Rhode, Black/BIack Lisle, Sims Rang, LadyLynn Zabaleta -Am I missing anyone?
Redtail Magic : I've got the full list of the top dogs of the Saints of Hell group if you like. Saints of Hell Officers have more powers than members. There's 19 of them. 6 owners. 4 founders.
Coke Supply : Give me all the owners.
Redtail Magic : OK, the owners are Sims Rang, Ambrosia Goode, SoHbank String, Shrug Dangle, LongHard Rhode and Needhed Soon. Sims Rang is partnered to Markkus MacMoragh.
Coke Supply : OK I got them. We need to talk to them.
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Redtail then gave me a transcript of the conversation he held when first confronting Black over the theft of his bike back on the 31st of December, the day he filed his first DMCA against the Black account (note that while this conversation was with the Biack account, the bikes rezzed at the Saints of Hell store were in the Black account's name and therefore the DMCA was filed against that account);
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Redtail Magic: Would you mind telling me where you got the parts for your bikes? I am about to file an AR against you unless you can prove to me you bought these parts. You have parts on your bikes I do not sell to anyone. They are exclusive to me.
(no response)
Redtail Magic: I've filed an abuse report against you dude.
BIack Lisle: I have what?
Redtail Magic: You have parts on your bikes I do NOT sell. They show you as creator. They should show Trinity as such. I do not have you in any of my sale records.
BIack Lisle: What parts are you referring to?
Redtail Magic: An engine arrow oil gallery, a set of handlebars with wires and cables – shall I go on?
BIack Lisle: Please, as I'll look and get you the info you ask for.
Redtail Magic: You better dude, because I have 3 parts that I am showing a few people here that I HAVE NEVER SOLD APART FROM ON MY COMPLETE BIKES!
BIack Lisle: Look Red, please list me the parts, when I can get back there I'll take care of it. I can't get there right now but I'll get it taken care of ASAP. I know the stuff I made from the stuff I have purchased, and if it's not kosher I have no issue removing it.
Redtail Magic: NO WAY! No excuses! Prove to me you made these parts!
BIack Lisle: I could ask the same at this point bro, I am trying to be cordial right now.
Redtail Magic: Not kosher? You gotta be kidding me. I'm going to bust your ass!
BIack Lisle: OK do what you feel you have to do, if you wanna make a scene that's your choice.
Redtail Magic: HA! Want me to show a Linden the ORIGINAL sculpt studio notes?
BIack Lisle: Like I said, I will take care of the issue when I can. Right now, I can't.
Redtail Magic: Like I said, you have parts on your bikes I will never sell! So, they are copybotted. Simple as!
BIack Lisle: And like I said, if you list them to me I will take care of your problem.
Redtail Magic: How can I listen when you have parts on your bikes that I do not sell to anyone, only if they buy the full bike? Which is NO MOD, and you make it blue! I am in an important meeting right now. I will deal with this after.
Inventory item offered
Redtail Magic: See the arrow on that engine? It's only being sold on the Lakhota Rocket, a bike sold without mod rights. See the handlebars? That is also only sold on the bike. See the wires and cables? Also NOT sold as a part but as part of the Rocket bike.
BIack Lisle: OK, I will have them sent back to me for now so they are off display and fix that for you. I'll also look back to where they came from and notecard or landmark the places they were found.
Redtail Magic: Thank you. Also proof of your buying from me, if you say you did buy legit. You can clear your name no probs, if you can show us all you bought what you thought were legit parts, OK?
BIack Lisle: Dunno what would constitute proof of buying, as Linden Lab don't keep records of transactions far back but I'll give you what I can. Apparently, your friends are griefing the sim as we speak. But that's another convo. I'll be free to get back there in an hour or so. I'll start when I get back with the info for you.
Redtail Magic: I don't like griefing at all. They are in the bikers guild, where we place the call on botters. Not my friends. I do not go for grief.
(29 minutes pass)
Redtail Magic: I would like to know which bike store you bought the parts from, and which parts you say you bought legit. You have a heck of a lot of my bike parts in your builds. Engine, seat, tyres, wheels, fenders… the lot, dude. I see you removed the bikes. No matter, I have photo proof. I am writing a DMCA out right now. I will give you till I log out for the night. If I hear nothing back, on my return I will be hitting the send button on my FAX machine.
Second Life: User not online – message will be stored and delivered later.
Redtail Magic: I see you have removed the bikes. I need an explanation why each of my parts on your bike shows you as creator on the Inspect tab of Edit? If you bought them it would show the store owner's name as creator, not yours. Also, the actual creator is my partner Trinity. Please explain to me how you are showing as creator of each parts, and not him, if you bought them legit?
Second Life: User not online – message will be stored and delivered later.
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After this conversation, Black/Biack apparently placed the bikes back out for sale and, to this date, has never provided Redtail with a list of locations or merchants from which he claims to have purchased the stolen parts.
I decided to corroborate the claims made by Redtail by interviewing some of the builders involved in creating the original bike. I spoke first with Trinity Hunghi, a builder that Redtail claims works exclusively for him.
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Coke Supply: Hello Trinity. I'm doing a story regarding the theft of Redtail's motorbike for the Herald, and was wondering if you would like to make a statement?
Trinity Hunghi: I make sculpts for Redtail. In that bike alone, I have spent about 3 to 4 months sculpting all the parts. I estimate that there is probably about 500 hours of sculpting in that particular bike.
Coke Supply: Yes, the creation dates show that spread of time. You work exclusively for Redtail, right??
Trinity Hunghi: Correct. I don't make parts for anyone but Redtail.
Coke Supply: So there's no way the distinctive arrowhead, unique handlebars etc would have found their way onto another build?
Trinity Hunghi: Redtail is the only one that received those parts from me. They are exclusive to that particular bike. I am too busy to sculpt for others. I did most of the sculpties on that bike except for the gas tank, sissy bar, gas line, kick stand, key set and tyres. Redtail did the texturing, as well as the scripting and final assembly of the bike.
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Redtail was also kind enough to provide me with the transcript of a conversation held between himself and Sims Rang, in which he had approached her regarding the theft of the Lakhosa Rocket motorbike. It reads as follows:
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Redtail Magic: Hi there. Do you own the Saints of Hell sim?
Sims Rang: Yeah I do.
Redtail Magic: Biack Lisle is in possession of copybotted bike parts belonging and made by myself and my partner. I have no record of him buying one part from my store let alone the huge amount he has in his builds – including 3 parts I have never put out for sale separately, and are only included with a no mod/no transfer bike I have for sale. These parts are illegal copies and I will be taking further action against BIack Lisle. An AR and DMCA have been filed and submitted.
Sims Rang: We hold real life copyrights for virtual property created in this game. So, do your DMCA's, do whatever you like. File a real life lawsuit but be prepared to lose. Good day.
Redtail Magic: He has made bikes using my unique bike parts, I have and never will sell them separately.
Inventory item offered
Inventory item offered
Inventory item offered
Sims Rang: Take us to court. I watched him make every piece on those bikes. There is no discussion. Take us to court. File your shit. That's all I've got to say.
Redtail Magic: I do sell some of these parts full perm, but there are 3 parts on his bikes I will never sell full perm or any other way but in the no-mod bike I have for sale.
Sims Rang: Honey… we don't use other people's parts. Biack's name isn't Motor Loon.
Redtail Magic: See the arrow on that oil gallery? It's mine. Loon never botted my stuff.
Sims Rang: No… only high end builders like HD and Black.
Redtail Magic: I do not sell that arrow except for on a bike for sale no mod no trans.
Sims Rang: Look… don't come accusing. File your reports. If it is false, we will counter sue with slander.
Redtail Magic: Those are my parts exclusively!
Sims Rang: Again… File the reports. Take us to court. That's all I will say.
Redtail Magic: OK, no probs… that bike has won many many shows and every bike builder in Second Life knows who made the parts and will back me up in court. It's not a problem.
Sims Rang: Again… shall I restate my position?
Redtail Magic: Be my guest. Want me to restate mine?
Sims Rang: Say anything you don't mind me bringing up in court.
Redtail Magic?: Sure thing. This IM is being recorded on my PC
Sims Rang: As is mine… and I'm a copyright lawyer *winks* I will not discuss this with you. Again, take it to court. I've got better things to do.
Redtail Magic?: Oh I do apologise. Copybotting is very important, hey?
Sims Rang?: If we did copybot, sure. But we don't. So have a good one. Next word is a harassment report.
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It is interesting to note that Sims did not welcome the idea of an investigation of Redtail's claims, preferring to ban investigators and threaten them with the filing of a harassment claim, as opposed to allowing them to investigate the allegation of theft. I found this incriminating. Indeed, after quizzing Sims Rang, I quickly discovered that her story had somewhat changed from her previous conversation with Redtail.
Sims also claimed to have witnessed Black/Biack's bikes being created, yet the build dates on the prims of his copied Lakhota Rocket were spread out over a period of less than ten seconds. I was keen to ask Sims about this. If she was claiming that she saw the creation of the bike, might I get her to admit that she saw it being uploaded all at once?
The answer was yes.
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A CHAT WITH SIMS RANG
Using an alt account, I obtained the following information…
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Bomb Tremor: Hello Sims. Would you be so kind as to answer a few questions regarding the controversy surrounding Biack's bikes being sold in your sim?
Sims Rang: No I would not. sorry. We are done with it.
Bomb Tremor: Do you know who has accused him of theft?
Sims Rang: Redtail Magic and Hiiigh Jinx. If you are associated with them, I will end now. We have been instructed by Lindens to file all as harassment.
Bomb Tremor: So he bought the stolen parts from them?
Sims Rang: What is your interest in this?
Bomb Tremor: I am writing up a story for the Alphaville Herald regarding the bikes in question.
Sims Rang: I will tell you this… Black is not a thief.
Bomb Tremor: I was hoping you could let me know who is accusing him of being a thief. Did they set him up?
Sims Rang: No. I wouldn't say that either. I think they are making false accusations. The items can be purchased all over Second Life.
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I was intrigued. Sims first stated to Redtail that the Saints of Hell bikes do not use other people's parts, but she was now claiming that the bikes contained parts found all over Second Life.
I pressed further…
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Bomb Tremor: So, has Black filed a complaint against Redtail and Hiiigh?
Sims Rang: Why? It's a waste of our time, and thieves in this game are inevitable. We are filing harassment AR's. Our parts are registered. We have nothing to hide. And to be honest, don't have the time to worry about it. Black has been copybotted so many times it's retarded.
Bomb Tremor: Registered? Like in real life in some official capacity?
Sims Rang: Yes.
Bomb Tremor: Ah I see. So I guess you will file a DMCA if Hiiigh or Redtail have copied the bikes in question?
Sims Rang: No. Filing a DMCA requires wanting to take to a real life court, and to be honest, we aren't that vested in it. We will go if sued, but we will not file. We have far more important things to do.
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I found this quite stunning. Sims was claiming that the bikes were created from parts found all over Second Life, yet she owned the copyright to the bikes. And was unwilling to use that copyright to file a DMCA if it was stolen.
Why go through the trouble of filing copyright in real life if there was no intention of using it to protect the bikes in the first place? Why file at all if it was already known that the parts for the bike were purchased “all over Second Life”? Why keep all of the bikes on sale when the original copyright owners then step forward to object to the use of their parts?
I am no lawyer, yet it was very clear to me that Sim's claim of being a copyright lawyer did not hold water. I was desperate to interrogate her further, but decided to act innocent instead and let Sims continue to speak in the hope that other discrepancies in her story would become apparent. She did not disappoint me.
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Bomb Tremor: Well I think you should know, they are claiming that the entire bike is copied.
Sims Rang: No-one talks about the good stuff that Black does. Just their jealousy and BS about copybotting, which has not happened. They can claim what they want. Like I told them, take us to court. All 106 members of this organization will stand behind him completely.
Bomb Tremor: And there's definitely no chance of Black being guilty?
Sims Rang: Is there no chance? No-one can answer anything 100%… it's all relative, and virtual content makes it even hazier, but I know Black, I have known him for over 2 years, and not just Second Life… I believe in him, and I have seen him spend countless hours working on these bikes, on MY private sim.
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Wait a second. Sims claimed to have witnessed Black create the bikes with her own eyes, yet could not say with 100 percent certainty that he built them?
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Bomb Tremor: Oh I see. Well, there's just one thing – the build dates on all the prims on the bikes are spread out over a period of about 5 seconds – you must agree that this adds some weight to their accusations? I'm not saying for a moment it's true, but it looks bad.
Sims Rang: Do you know how to upload maps?
Bomb Tremor: Well I've uploaded textures before.
Sims Rang: He showed me today. I did it in less than a minute, and I am by no means a builder. I am a planner. But I can see, in the old days, how it would look as such. But the new viewers make things a little different.
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Again, I was stunned by what I was hearing. Sims was claiming to have uploaded the bike herself, as instructed by Black/Biack, stating that it took less than one minute. I wondered how she could achieve such a feat without the aid of XML files created by a copybot or other illicit client – which kind of lifts some of the ambiguity away from her comments about “the new viewers”.
I suspected at this point that the thief was sharing his XML files with other accounts within the Saints of Hell group. This would make a lot of sense if a group of thieves were involved, or if there was only one thief sharing the content with multiple accounts. I suspected that these accounts would be the ones sharing the ownership of the group, with Sims Rang at their helm.
I decided to press for more information regarding the uploading of the bikes.
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Bomb Tremor: So the whole bike was uploaded all at once?
Sims Rang: In parts, but yeah. Look, I am not going to pretend to understand how it works. I'm no builder, scripter or any of that… but I trust Black with my life, real life and Second Life, so… I believe what he showed me, and what he told me. And to be honest, if he was guilty, Linden Lab would have taken his account and the content. They released his account and the parts. So, what does that look like to you?
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This was a lie. A DMCA filing was found in favour of Redtail by Linden Lab around the 16th January, and the Black Lisle account disappeared from Second Life search three or four days after this investigation began. The Biack account, however, remained active. If Linden Lab acted in favour of Red's DMCA filing, then how could it have been made apparent to Sims, beforehand, that they resolved the DMCA in Black/Biack's favour?
The answer, of course, is that she was lying to me – the DMCA was yet to be resolved at this point in time.
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Bomb Tremor: Well this isn't the first time I've investigated for the Herald. There's several cases I know of where a copybotter has kept their account – but yes, you make a strong point. If he was selling something that wasn't his to sell then Linden Lab would most probably delete the account.
Sims Rang: And they would have blacklisted the parts. I have dealt with a copybotter before. We kicked him out.
Bomb Tremor: I've never had to file a DMCA on someone so I'm not sure what will happen, but – if a false DMCA claim is filed, what would Linden Lab do to the people that file it?
Sims Rang: We are trying to find that out right now. I have my admins combing through the Terms of Service to look into that. If you find out before me, please let me know.
Bomb Tremor: I'm sure you know much more than I do about DMCAs and ARs at this point – I've never had to deal with them like this, I'm only an observer thankfully.
Sims Rang: It's alot of stress, but we deal with it.
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This obviously contradicts the earlier statement by Sims that the Saints of Hell “were done with it” and had “better things to do” with their time. I also found it interesting that they were spending that time attempting to discover the fate of people that filed false DMCA claims.
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Bomb Tremor: So what do you think can be done in future to deter people from filing false claims?
Sims Rang: They should make the punishment to be the same as a copybotter. Take the account. An AR honestly ain't shit. Lindens don't do a thing about them mostly. DMCA's are a little more serious, and should be handled as such.
Bomb Tremor: OK, I will leave you to it but I want to follow this story up a bit more – is there anything you can tell me about the people that are accusing you guys of stealing? Have they done it before? Are they known for griefing?
Sims Rang: Absolutely they have. We have a history with Hiiigh Jinx. This Redtail person is new to me. But we have been dealing with Hiiigh for over a year. He sends people to grief. He accuses people, and he won't do his own work. He sends people. I have mountains of chat log, which I can't send you as it's a Terms of Service violation. But I track every word said on my account, and he is famous for it, since before we even bought any of these sims. We rented a homestead called SOH Turf. It started then. Look… I ain't gonna defame the guy. I don't know him, and until recently, he hasn't spoken words to me. But I have 100+ members and they report to me and they tell me what is going on. He is starting this shit. We have the proof. But it's not really worth the time or the loss of people on it.
Bomb Tremor: You're one of the very few people that's actually chosen to speak to me about any of this.
Sims Rang: Well, no-one wants to get involved, and they are too dumb to speak correctly.
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Sims' story was markedly different from the story she gave to Redtail, and new contradictions and inconsistencies were appearing almost constantly. I found the comments regarding Hiiigh Jinx to be the most desperate. “He is starting this shit”? I believe that Sims had no idea how much I knew about the story at this point, and thought that blaming everything on Hiiigh Jinx would provide a false lead and throw me off the case. It was a deceitful and desperate measure, and I was stunned by her audacity.
According to Motor Loon, he too was accused by the Saints of Hell group members of sending people to grief their sim. This is something that Motor and Hiiigh both deny. According to Motor, the Saints of Hell members admitted they were wrong and apologised to him for the accusation. From what I understand, Hiiigh Jinx was banned from the sim when he went there to investigate the theft himself, as were all of the people that worked on the original bike. From what I have seen of the chat logs sent to me, no griefing was involved at all.
I continued to press the matter of copyright in relation to the stolen version of the bike…
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Bomb Tremor: Does it cost a lot to copyright something? I always thought that items were copyright as soon as you make something in Second Life and that you never needed to do it in real life because Linden Lab would always treat you like you had copyright on what you made. Does real life copyrighting make any difference here in Second Life?
Sims Rang: It costs a little. Not too much. It can make a difference, to a point, depending on how far they want to take it.
Bomb Tremor: So I guess you have the bikes copyrighted at this point?
Sims Rang: The patents are registered. We are working on the copyrights.
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Interesting. Up to this point, Sims had always claimed that she owned copyright on the bikes. It suddenly made sense why Sims wanted to avoid going to court in real life to defend her copyright – either she didn't have copyright, or she knew that she had no claim on the bikes to start with.
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Bomb Tremor: Be right back, just rolling a cigarette.
Sims Rang: OK. Actually Bomb, I need to go to sleep. We can talk again later. Don't make me look like a bitch in print.
Bomb Tremor: Oh, don't worry, I might not be the best reporter in the Herald, but I want to be the most impartial. I will carry on with my investigations and see what I can find out about Redtail and the other guy.
Sims Rang: Spend some time sitting at our landing point. You will see all the crap come down. You will see all of them come all day and harass members and to file reports, so they say.
Bomb Tremor: OK, I will have a sit down there and be an observer for a while.
Sims Rang: Just let anyone know you are a guest of mine, otherwise they will interrogate the shit out of you.
Bomb Tremor: OK, I will paste the last few lines of chat to them as evidence if that's ok with you?
Sims Rang: Sure. I will let my enforcer team know.
Bomb Tremor: Maybe they can tell me more info if they have it.
Sims Rang: They won't talk to you about this stuff. They are under orders. But they will make sure nobody messes with you.
Bomb Tremor: Well, I try to be as low key as possible at the best of times so I'm sure I won't be a nuisance.
Sims Rang: OK. Take care, and we will talk again soon. Black and Brutus will have no problem talking to you as well.
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The conversation regarding copyright was very revealing. I wondered what the legal implications were of filing a copyright claim on items purchased from "all over Second Life", especially on the not-for-sale items. Sims had also claimed that the bikes were already copyrighted, whereas she was now saying that this had not been done yet.
[...TO BE CONTINUED...]
[NOTE:
This article took around two weeks to write and is the accumulation of interviews and investigations by myself and many other people, resulting in one of the longest Herald articles ever written. There was an awful lot of information in this article, so I took the liberty of formatting the text transcripts to make it easier for everyone to read. These edits were made solely for reasons of clarity. Changes include spelling and grammar corrections, as well as re-organising the sentences to compensate for chat lag and sequential chat postings, as well as the removal of irrelevant or private information. The accounts used to commit the thefts in this story had similar names (Black and Biack) and therefore it is quite possible that any one of the people whose testimony is provided had used one name in place of the other by mistake. I know I did. At times I have used “Black/Biack” to refer to the operator of these accounts, while at other times I used the same convention when I was uncertain of which account name should be used. Also, the chronology of some of the interviews is wrong, due to my attempt to fit everything into the article's narrative flow. Also, due to the thief having two accounts of similar names, and due to his swapping of the names on the bikes that he stole, a great deal of confusion arose between myself and the original creators of the bikes as to which account stole which bike and when, requiring intense effort on everyone's part to clarify the details and to investigate what happened in order to keep this article factual. Many revisions were made, and within all the confusion I am certain that some minor errors may have still slipped through. I offer my apologies if this is indeed the case, but I did the very best I could under the circumstances to provide you all with the most accurate account possible of my investigations into one of the most disturbing cases of content theft I have ever encountered in my 3 years of being a Second Life resident. I hope you all find it an engrossing read.
- Coke Supply]
Judge Joker
Feb 8th, 2010
WTF are you Inspector Clouseau? my Pink Panther is throbbing after reading all that thanks for the headache!
Gaara Sandalwood
Feb 8th, 2010
….wow. So, if I am reading this correctly, in short terms, a single group based on bikers is alledgedly copying multiple big name motercycle creators works, passing them off as their own and selling them, insisting they made them despite the evident proof that they didn’t, preventing anyone they feel is connected to this matter on the opposing side(the original creators, people sent on their behalf, etcetera)from entering their sim to investigate further, and filing harassment ARs on those who try to further investigate by talking to them.
All around possibly another shitstorm’s headed this way. The JLU one is more entertaining though, so meh.
Darien Caldwell
Feb 8th, 2010
One detail which seems to have been omitted, is the question of the ‘original’ creators using Real Life designs to create their sculpted bike. Do they have permission from the original bike creator, or are they just as guilty as the alleged prim copiers?
We
Feb 8th, 2010
The first picture is condemning enough. If you inspect a multi-prim object and find that every prim was made more or less in the same second. Then it’s very likely copybotted. I think the only reason that this one has a span over a few seconds, is that the design is complex enough that it probably took a few seconds to copy fully.
Jahar Aabye
Feb 8th, 2010
@We
Until recently, there was a bug that caused items that were shift-copied to show the exact date and time of the shift-copying in the “inspect” window. This actually caused problems for some legitimate content creators who had shift-copied their items while working on them (for example, to try two different changes and see which looks better) when people immediately assumed that the items were copybotted. However, it does look as though that particular bug was fixed, and in this case it looks like these individuals gathered quite a bit of other data as well to support their case, although admittedly I only skimmed the article.
Most content creators I know tend to have the attitude of “business is business, competition is competition, but we’re all allies when it comes to stopping content theft.” I’ve IMed and sent pics to people if I thought I saw their stuff copybotted, and vice-versa. Generally, the content creator is the person in the best position to determine if an item was copybotted, and of course they’re the ones in the best position to take any necessary legal action.
In case you’re curious about that bug, it was reported as http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-3837
So a large number of prims having the same creation date may not necessarily imply that an object was copybotted. However, it can be one piece of a larger string of evidence that points towards copybotting.
eating popcorn :p
Feb 8th, 2010
@ Jahar Aabye
You are absolutely correct but it should also be remembered that the original bike has dates that precede the Black Lisle bike by as much as six months. It is also hard to imagine that Black Lisle had created his own bike, six months later, of his own skills, which happened to look completely identical to the original. Somebody copybotted somebody, and my bet is that it wasn’t Redtail.
Hiro Pendragon
Feb 8th, 2010
Am I the only one not missing the obvious, so far? The picture used to promote the SL Lakhota Rocket includes a picture of a real motorcycle. I’m going to make a pretty safe assumption and say that this wasn’t made by any of the creators of the SL-version, and that in doing so would be ripping off someone else’s IP rights for the look-and-feel of the real motorcycle. Now, I understand that these bikes can be unique and I’d have to see higher resolution images to confirm, but the SL Lakhota looks like a carbon copy of the real one.
So, the natural question is: If this is true, where the heck does someone get off accusing another 3rd party of copying an already stolen IP?
If I’m missing something important, please speak up; it’s definitely not clear in this article that what I’m saying would be an incorrect assumption.
corona anatine
Feb 8th, 2010
time to check my inventory bikes for creation speed
Cat Cotton
Feb 8th, 2010
Copy bot in action. Exactly why I refuse to spend days, weeks, or months creating jack shit in SL. If they stole textures off the pic the owner of the pic has a case also. Bunch of fooking thieves.
Jahar Aabye
Feb 8th, 2010
@Hiro,
While I don’t know the specifics of this case, many larger content creators do contact the RL creators of these items for permission.
Rhotis Paine
Feb 8th, 2010
I ran a sim for 18 months and we had a large market. I cant count the times I saw market renters come to me and complain about content theft by another market renter. I went through it more then 100 times and found no cases of legitimate copying so I always roll my eyes when I see charges of content theft. Jugding by what I have seen in this article the evidence does look pretty damning and I may be witnessing a rare case of actual IP theft. Good story.
To the couple that talked about IP theft of the actual creators from the real world creators of the objects. Thats a very murky concept actually. How much of the original has to be similar to be a copy and not just an inspiration. Lets be real there is almost nothing in SL that is not borrowed from something in the real world and no I doubt very highly any SL creator ever contacted the RL creator of any object getting permission to make something similar in SL. Can you imagine any of the bike builders that made bikes similar to Harleys or Indians actually getting a response from HD or Indian? Their letters wouldnt make it past the secretary that gigglged and deleted it. The reality is if SL grows much larger then what it is there will prolly be a mountain of IP claims coming in as Levi sues jean makers, Chevy sues people modeling the 69 camaro and so on and so on. Many of the cases will be settled, many laughed out of court but the time will prolly come when this happens.
Logan Omega
Feb 8th, 2010
‘It is also hard to imagine that Black Lisle had created his own bike, six months later, of his own skills’ you couldnt be further from the truth I’ve seen bike builder have better turn around in a shorter time frame. In fact I have showed some of my bikes that I got from MM board and from various hunts to a bike builer that taught the bike creator to build and do bike scripts three months ago.
And to target one group for the actions of a store on their land is just ‘stupid’ for lack of a better term. I hope LL deletes Coke Supply and all her alts including ban her from SL if he has nothing better to do that harrass people that have nothing to do with the company then she is a harrassing stalker that where I’m from leads to one thing.
Alyx Stoklitsky
Feb 8th, 2010
1. SLfag A steals design of real-world motorbike and starts selling its digital representation.
2. SLfag B steals design of virtual world motorbike and starts selling its digital representation.
3. SLfag general populace completely fails to see the SLfag A’s hypocrisy.
4. I lol’d.
Garmin Kawaguichi
Feb 8th, 2010
Clap! Clap! Clap!
Great works!
Garmin
mushroom cloud
Feb 8th, 2010
@ Hiro Pendragon
As far as I am aware, Redtail purchased the real-life bike himself, and under existing copyright laws he was allowed to make a copy for his own personal use, so he created one in sculpt studio. According to State law, this didn’t count as copyright violation because his bike is a virtual item and therefore didn’t exist. So, Red made a shit load of vendors and sold the nonexistant bikes for nonexistant mickey mouse money that the SL TOS claims is not owned by anybody except Linden Lab. Therefore, the only people that made real life dollars from that bike up to this point is Linden Lab, when they took money from bitches like you who were stupid enough to buy a virtual bike instead of save up for the real fucking thing like Redtail did.
Now, bear with me, because this is where it gets confusing… Linden Lab solved the DMCA in favour of Redtail because Redtail FUCKING CREATED THAT BIKE, and Black Bastard got his account deleted because he FUCKING STOLE THAT BIKE.
Linden Lab just laughed and pocketed the real life dollars while Redtail pocketed Lindens, which he then had to pay to Linden Lab anyway to pay his tier to keep the bike shop open so that self righteous cunts like you can buy it from him in the first place. Therefore, Linden Lab ended up with all of the real money, all of the fake money, and all the fake bikes are on Linden Lab’s servers, while Black and Redtail run the risk of fines and prison just so cunts like you have a nice bike to ride. Black got his account deleted, you got a 3d model of the bike that you could never fucking hope to make yourself, and Redtail got almost fuck all for his efforts, except for just enough money for gas to ride his real life bike over to your fucking house to flip the birdie at you as he rides past, laughing as you press your fucking self righteous nose against the window, wondering why the fuck you should pay his petrol money for “the bike he stole”.
Now do something useful and call the police on one of the content creators that fills your crappy game with the toys you love so much. You cunt.
I laughed
Feb 8th, 2010
logan omega you forgot the rest of the quote:”which happened to look completely identical to the original”
if you reread it in its proper contex you will understand what its saying properly
and we will understand that you are misrepresenting a quiote to support an argumeant that has no legs hahaha
Brutus
Feb 8th, 2010
Let em make one thing perfectly clear here. IN Second Life the Saints of Hell Motorcycle Club does not build or sell Prim Bikes. When I tried to explaint this to the writer Coke Supply she refused to talk to me and ultimatly Muted me so she could not see my chat. So tell me how this is an impartial article, and has numerous false claims. If you read at the begining she states that she was investigating on behalf of her friend. So from the start this was a truly bias article. I offered to be interviewd but she was not interested. I then sent information to the editor of this magazine and again was ignored.
Brutus
Feb 8th, 2010
Soon there after, Coke supply obtained a texture the Motorcycle club uses as their Patch, Mind you again Saints of hell does not build bikes SLC does a completely different business in sl that has nothing to do with Saints of hell, Modified the texture which is the same as content theft an posted in her profile numerous times. This is defamation of character making false claims against an innocent party and posting it here for a 3rd party to read. The title in her profile “SUE ME”.
Ace Bovarro
Feb 8th, 2010
This is a Copyright issue, LL apparently sees it this way. This would explain all the mass banning of Multiple accounts.
But to be frank, I think recreating something in the real world with or without a logo is still copying in some extent. It is ok to copy a real world product, but not for profits. If you gain a profit from copyright material than you are breaking that Companies or Businesses Copyrights.
milner beck
Feb 8th, 2010
great story but who is watching those other builders that got their parts stolen from, I am in the middle of a major crackdown on one that act like MR HONEST but is far from it. Even witness it happened but some Lindens turn away as it happens
vince braver
Feb 8th, 2010
This whole story is rediculous. Another lame article from SLH. Fuck you SLherald, fuck you.
Danger359
Feb 8th, 2010
I can tell you a bit from my own experience what happens after a DCMA claim has been filed. My textures were copied and when I discovered the theft and got no relief from the perp I contacted LL. They told me how to file the DCMA claim. I asked what happens next? They said when the claim is received, they take down all content that I claim is infringing. Then what? LL said the target of the DCMA claim then typically files a counter claim. After that, LL puts the contested content back up. That is all they are obligated to do until there is a legal ruling in the case. So I decided not to file. It really pained me, but is it worth the hundreds (or more) of RL dollars to go to court? Not in my case. The bottom line is unless you are willing to sue in RL, nothing much is going to happen. In my opinion, the residents of SL need to figure out how to provide justice inside SL itself for cases like this.
One of the Saints
Feb 8th, 2010
@Logan Omega
You’re absolutely correct. As someone with a bit of inside information into what was going on, I know that the Saints were more annoyed with Coke’s constant Spanish-Inquisition-style interrogations than they were with dealing with the actual issue, which they felt was a real-life legal question that was better dealt with outside of SL. The MC actually has a long history (search the archives on this site) of doing charitable works and working with several real-world universities. Definitely legit.
With that said, once it was discovered that Coke was a frothing conspiracy theorist (check her profile for the 9/11 links) and an all around shit-stirrer, her credibility swirled straight down the bowl with the Saints. What group in SL wouldn’t want to keep someone like that out of their business? I’d tell her I was a from another planet and I ate newborn babies if it would keep her loathsome prattling out of my IM box.
Now content theft is a serious issue, which isn’t do discount the subject matter, but it’s certainly not a criminal issue. It’s a civil issue because there’s just too much gray area. Shift copy bug? That’s one. Buggy clients? That’s two. I could go on ad nauseam, but it all comes down to the brass tacks, If Red wants to Take Black to court, then that’s for him to hire a lawyer and do. It’s certainly not for an ethically compromised self-appointed witch hunter to make a final determination on.
Amelia
Feb 8th, 2010
I am a bit curious why posts need to be moderated and the author has approval of them. Is she concerned that somehow, we as a collective group will voice our concern with a biased and not very ethical “article”. I use the term article loosely as it seems to be a bit of a smear campaign based on conversations she has admittedly altered, supposedly to clean them up in the context of grammar and spelling. This makes me curious as to the credibility of this “herald” to bring us accurate facts on other issues. Is she intent on only allowing those comments through which support her article or further escalate the “drama” factor of it? tsk tsk… it is truly a shame that Not all sides of the story was told here and instead only the side of her friend.
Edna
Feb 9th, 2010
I run several adults web sites where amateur women can and do post their photos. Everyday there is another one of them complaining that they surfed the web and found their beaver shots posted on some photo sharing site without their permission. We’re talking photos of these women showing their face and engaged in sexual acts here, and now these women who are college students, lawyers, teachers, doctors, etc have no control over where their intimate photos are being shown.
When they come crying to me (there is nothing I can do for them once it leaves my sites) I tell them the same thing I would tell content creators in Second Life…once you post (or rez in this case) something on the internet, you have no way of getting it back. A simple rule to live by; if you can’t bear the thought of something being out there with no control over it, then don’t post it. If you are old enough to post a photo of your VJ on the web or to create an object in Second Life, you are old enough to know that there will always be some scumbag waiting to steal/copy it within seconds of it appearing on the web. Hell, it isn’t even limited to web based stuff, ask Rolex, Louis Vitton, etc. about their “Chinese Lines”. Right or wrong, that’s just how it is.
saints suck
Feb 9th, 2010
@One of the saints
I was witness on several occasions to you people acting like schoolyard bullies, banning all of the people that created the bike as they attempted to get close to file the ARs. It was obvious that you were under orders to protect your precious store full of copied work from being reported to linden lab, and i told you all as much and got banned myself too. I later found out that two of your people got banned from second life for copying peoples work so say shit about this story all day if you want, youre still a bunch of copiers in my eyes
saints suck
Feb 9th, 2010
@ Brutus
“This is defamation of character making false claims against an innocent party and posting it here for a 3rd party to read.”
This is funny Brutus, as I have understood it your people have been doing defamationf of character against all 5 of the people that had their items stolen ever since they first came to your sim you fucking hypocrite!!!!!!!!!!!
Saints Babe
Feb 9th, 2010
Let me hit you with some knowledge…
Ironically, the author choses to ignore the fact that Redtail’s Lakhota Rocket is a virtual replica of a Harley Davidson Bobber bike. His virtual designs are based on a RL bike who’s images are accessible to anyone on the internet. Anyone creating a Bobber style bike would hold true to the bike’s classic features and design the bike according to the original design. He is trying to take credit for a creation that is not truly his own work of art, but a meer replica of a bike that was created by Harley Davidson. In a sense, he himself is banking off of the creation of someone else since the original design concept is not his work. If Harley Davidson still possess a patent for the mechanical designs of the Bobber bike, then I don’t understand how Redtail or Trinity were able to obtain copyrights for those designs. This is a question that would be better answered by an Intellectual Property attorney and not a person who passes themself off as an “investigative reporter”.
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
@”One of the Saints”
It’s funny to watch you Saints attempt to slander my name and reputation, because I’ve actually pasted almost every chat I ever had with you loathsome scum into this very article exactly as it occurred. So it won’t be too long before we all get to see exactly how many “spanish inquisition style interrogations” you have had to endure.
No offense but I enjoyed the irony of hearing one of the Saints talk about credibility – let it not be forgotten that the entire Saints of Hell management leapt to the defence of a known copybotter proclaiming his innocence, a few days before he subsequently had all 3 of his accounts deleted by Linden Lab after successful DMCA filings by our team.
Made me look like a right shit-stirrer didn’t it.
At0m0 Beerbaum
Feb 9th, 2010
I got banned from the saints of hell, the owner’s “wife” went on a ragefest over something small that I said, and started banning people (not just me)
I doubt any of them have ridden a real bike.
Inniatzo
Feb 9th, 2010
@mushroom cloud said: “As far as I am aware, Redtail purchased the real-life bike himself, and under existing copyright laws he was allowed to make a copy for his own personal use, so he created one in sculpt studio. According to State law, this didn’t count as copyright violation because his bike is a virtual item and therefore didn’t exist.”
First, the “make one copy for personal use” applied to digital media like CDs and DVDs. I am hardly an expert, but I sure that things which are trademarks (like logos) cannot be created legally in a virtual environment simply because someone bought the rl object. As for other aspect, like the overall shape of a pair of sneakers or details of this motorcycle which may not be explicitly trademarked I don’t think it’s clear. I would think, a direct and easily identifiable virtual copy of a rl object is a violation, although I don’t think cases like this have really percolated up to have legal precidents.
And sure, lots of things are based on rl stuff, some rather closely, and probably no one will care. But there isn’t some sort of “personal use” clause for making a virtual copy.
Then mushroom cloud seems to imply that a “personal use” copy (note: singular) means one can make and sell a shitload of copies. I don’t think so, lol.
And finally it comes all the way around and says they don’t exist anyway because they are virtual, lol.
All Seeing Eye
Feb 9th, 2010
“Sims Rang: The patents are registered. We are working on the copyrights.”
ummm… leaving aside the fact a patent for one software related “idea” usually costs what? $10,000 or more? And they are talking multiples… Patents on stuff inside SL? Funny TOS stuff there. Copyrights are automatic and instantaneous on conception of a work while patents must be filed and take months to decades to be awarded.
The smell of green liquefied concentrated bullshit is nose stingingly eye wateringly throat constrictingly intense enough to make one double over retching.
Slade
Feb 9th, 2010
This sounds like a private kind of war between two or more parties now, and I am starting to wonder about the reporter’s “qualities” since I noticed that her profile is altered/deleted. So what was said about the slander on her profile is true, and if so, why would an “investigating” person use her own profile to defame a group and violate the ToS, instead of waiting a few days to get this article published? Also note, how can a whole group copybot (I would assume only an individual can do that, unless each one copied one piece /lol/), and what do bans have to do with all this? Oh yes, and I’ve seen the arrow oil gallery and cables on other bikes over a year ago. One of the creators of the LR used to pass copies of HD bobbers out for free with one of his earlier avatars/alts. I remember he was very generous with his “new creations”.
Lemme check, I think he gave me one or two before he banned us from “his” sim. /lololol/
skills
Feb 9th, 2010
“Sims Rang: Do you know how to upload maps?
Bomb Tremor: Well I’ve uploaded textures before.
Sims Rang: He showed me today. I did it in less than a minute, and I am by no means a builder. I am a planner. But I can see, in the old days, how it would look as such.”
I had a look at the sculptmap and texture UUIDs of both copy and original and guess what, they were exactly the same. The douche never uploaded anything, it’s a simple copy.
“But the new viewers make things a little different.” <- LOL
Lucinda Pants, Captain, Hell's Grannies M.C.
Feb 9th, 2010
Alyx Stoklitsky, who needs a good two-wheeled suppository, wrote:
1. SLfag A steals design of real-world motorbike and starts selling its digital representation.
2. SLfag B steals design of virtual world motorbike and starts selling its digital representation.
3. SLfag general populace completely fails to see the SLfag A’s hypocrisy.
4. I lol’d.
Hey, biatch! You forgot #5:
Hell’s Grannies take SLfag Alyx Stoklitsky for a scrape down the Linden’s lousy highways.
Watch your back, troll. Our thundering machines will make you see skid marks soon..and not just in the bottom of your Fruit of the Loom whitey-tighties.
Gaara Sandalwood
Feb 9th, 2010
yet there’s still likely to be at least a couple dozen people bawwwwing about this that it was unfair to ban their club mate.
Neo Citizen
Feb 9th, 2010
@Saints Babe: The problem is a lot murkier than this – by taking a real life bike and making a digital model of it and then scripting it, it’s about as far from the original motorcycle as you can get. It’s a digital representation of a motorcycle. You could take three different approaches here:
* It’s a complete violation of the implicit copyright of the original designer, because the whole point of it is to match the original.
* It’s a derivative work (and therefore protected) because while it’s a finely detailed copy, it’s a finely detailed copy in a completely other medium – you can take a picture of a motorcycle and copyright the picture without needing the copyright on the motorcycle.
* It’s a transformative work, because it was created in an entirely new medium.
So there are pro’s here, and cons. But all three of these are somewhat fuzzy, and depend on situational context. You can’t state declaratively that any one of them is right just based on the general application of rules. But honestly, to me, personally, this looks like a transformative work, and the creator(s) should have a say in what happens to it.
Not that I’m completely clear on who did what to whom, this is really a complicated story, and I’d rather have read a better summary of what went on than have to read the chat logs and sort it out myself. On the other hand, at least this article appears to be roughly honest as contrasted to the usual griefer bait stuff the Herald runs.
Neo Citizen
Feb 9th, 2010
Or not – it’s hard to tell who’s lying here, but for sure somebody is.
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
Wow, “Saints Babe”, you sure post some shit don’t you? Please, allow me to tear each of your arguments to shreds for everyone’s reading pleasure
1. “Ironically, the author choses to ignore the fact that Redtail’s Lakhota Rocket is a virtual replica of a Harley Davidson Bobber bike.”
- Actually, no. I don’t know anything about motorbikes and wouldn’t know the difference between a Harley and a Chopper. And that’s a fact, bitch.
2. “Anyone creating a Bobber style bike would hold true to the bike’s classic features and design the bike according to the original design!”
- You’re wrong of course. (As an artist, I can see the differences between the photo and the bike as clear as day.)
3. “He is trying to take credit for a creation that is not truly his own work of art, but a mere replica of a bike that was created by Harley Davidson.”
- Tell you what, how about YOU create a bike of your own from the ground up, and then WE will accuse YOU of trying to take credit away from Harley Davidson?
And besides, didn’t you Saints bitches claim that Black/Biack made your bikes for you? If so, how come you just stabbed your hero in the back with this comment? I thought you always stuck up for your members no matter what?
4. “In a sense, he himself is banking off of the creation of someone else since the original design concept is not his work.”
WHA?!!! I can’t believe your bare-faced cheek! Are you talking about Biack stealing your bikes from Redtail, Lincoln, Trinity, Karyn etc etc ????? You were sure as fuck singing a different tune when we call came to investigate.
5. If Harley Davidson still possess a patent for the mechanical designs of the Bobber bike, then I don’t understand how Redtail or Trinity were able to obtain copyrights for those designs. This is a question that would be better answered by an Intellectual Property attorney and not a person who passes themself off as an “investigative reporter”.
- And MAYBE you Saints can explain how your boss Sims was claiming to own the copyright on the bikes that Biack stole in the first place, you ignorant little cunt.
And maybe THAT probably IS better answered by an investigative reporter…. if it weren’t for you cunts muting and banning me as I came to investigate the story.
icallbullshit
Feb 9th, 2010
coke! nice blowing a gasket over there!
srs bidness beyond on this one.
for sure
ROFLMAO
like any of this pixel crap matters…
who pays your bills, wipes ur ass and walks the dog in your household?
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
Brutus, after the Saints of Hell continuously ignored us, ejected us, banned us, refused interviews, spread lies about us and stood up for an obvious fucking thief, how DARE you have the barefaced cheek to come on here in plain view of everyone and talk like you do???
First off…
The ONLY time I “refused” to talk to you was when I was AFK. I came back and you had already made the assumption that I had muted you – if I remember correctly it took you something along the lines of about 10 minutes to come to that conclusion, and frankly I was thankful for that, because after my friends and I got TWO WEEKS of abuse by the lowlife scum that congregates around your bike store while we were trying to legitimately come to your sim to file DMCA’s and AR’s on the copybotted content, WHY THE FUCK should I have bothered to open up the same channel of communication with you people again??? All we EVER had from ANY of the people in your fucking group was lies, abuse, deception and threats, down from your little bitch wannabe biker fans right up to Sims Rang herself AND YOU ALL FUCKING KNOW IT, WE ALL HAVE THE SAME CHAT LOGS.
If you REALLY wanted to help like you are so desperate to portray, Brutus, why didn’t you and Sims tell your poisonous rabble to just FUCK OFF while we filed our DMCA’s and AR’s in peace? Why didn’t you and Sims co-operate with us? Well, we both know why, don’t we Brutus? You slimy bastards never had any intention of being civil with us because you all knew exactly who the thief was, and whose interests it served to protect his store. Your shady little group preferred to boot us out of the sim and file AR’s on the LEGITIMATE CREATORS instead because you KNEW you were all protecting the income that you were making off the back of HARDWORKING INNOCENT VICTIMS. I can’t believe you have the fucking nerve to come on here and stick up for these scum in plain sight of everyone like this Brutus.
Secondly, if you’re going to claim that this article “has numerous false claims” then how’s about calling me out on it?? Come on Brutus, point out where I went wrong. Take a good look at those pictures Brutus. Take a good fucking look. That’s what you and your group are trying to defend. That’s what Sims Rang is calling me a liar and a griefer and saying im full of shit for. Do I lie, Brutus? Do I really lie? Did I fake the pictures? Did I fabricate them? Do it Brutus, tell me I’m a liar and let’s see you try and tell everyone why. I’ve found 7 content creators that are fucking famous on the bike scene in Second Life and they all swear blind that they made those parts, they all swear that they have the original sculpty maps, they are all ready to file a DMCA, and all your team of 100 bikers have is… what? FUCK ALL that’s what. You guys can’t even lie to me properly without getting your stories torn to tiny shreds in front of your own fucking eyes so you’ve got some fucking nerve coming here and talking about false claims.
And so fucking what if I investigated this story for a friend? You got a fucking problem with that Brutus? Something wrong with me investigating a story of organised crime that my friends are suffering from? Does that suddenly turn me into a liar, Brutus? Am I dishonest for defending my friends when organised crime starts tearing apart the communities that they once thrived in? YOU ARE DAMN RIGHT I AM BIASED ABOUT THAT BRUTUS. I PROTECT MY FRIENDS A THOUSAND TIMES MORE THAN YOU AND SIMS ARE PROTECTING YOUR SARGEANT AT ARMS BLACK LISLE. NICE TO SEE HOW NOT EVEN ONE OF YOU SAINTS ARE PROTESTING HIS INNOCENCE NOW LIKE YOU WERE DOING RIGHT UP TO THE VERY FUCKING DAY THIS ARTICLE WAS SENT TO THE HERALD. TRY TELLING SIMS TO HELP THE VICTIMS AND NOT THE FUCKING PERPETRATORS NEXT TIME BRUTUS. MAYBE THEN YOU WILL SEE AN ATTITUDE FROM ME THAT YOU APPROVE OF.
Ask yourselves this Brutus – the poor assholes that slaved away for months making the parts of that bike – did they deserve your spittle dripping down their faces when they came to your sim to point out that your precious sargeant-at-arms was stealing from them? Do they deserve to be called liars and thieves themselves by your brainwashed drones, just because Sims clicks her fingers? Do they deserve to work so hard, just to have their reputation smeared and their profits stolen? Do they deserve to have a bunch of jumped up little cocks spit in their faces like that and steal what they made? Oh, I beg to differ, Brutus.
So, now you and your friends file an AR on me if I come within a hundred yards of you all. “Fuck with the best, die like the rest”? I am ONE fucking person with the truth on my side and you are over 100 people with two deleted copybotter accounts on yours and look how you all run from me Brutus. Sims has disappeared offline and left the rest of you to take the heat, pretending she’s ill. Everone files an AR as soon as my name appears in a tab at the bottom of their chat window, and I bet you’re pretty fucking sick already of having to come here as vice president defending the actions of a pit of vipers and seeing your own reputation smeared by association with these scum when you probably just want to drink a beer and watch the superbowl.
Anyone with half a brain can see how this scam is done Brutus. The bike store is the front for the Saints of Hell to sell stolen bikes. The Black/Biack accounts are martyr accounts, the sacrificial lambs for the inevitable DMCA’s. The bike store and the Saints of Hell are the same entity posing as two different companies, so that the Saints of Hell can wash their hands of the situation if they ever get caught. This is why you idiots tried so hard to protect the scam in the face of all the evidence and it’s why you were banning us from your sim left right and centre and you fucking all know it Brutus. And now you are all posting your bullshit in the Herald trying to salvage the situation. And let’s not forget the alt accounts that are logging into Second Life and threatening to make my time there miserable.
And now your people are threatening to sue me for defamation? After you tried to put a copybot thief on a pedestal, while at the same time trying destroy the reputations of the sculpty artists that made the very items he was selling?
So come on then Brutus, call me a liar. Show me what I lied about. Tell everyone here how I was dishonest. I’m waiting.
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
@Amelia,
“it is truly a shame that Not all sides of the story was told here and instead only the side of her friend.”
If you Saints truly wished for your side of the story to be told, then here is some advice…
1) Don’t mute us.
2) Don’t ban us.
3) Don’t spread lies about us.
4) Don’t lie to us.
5) Don’t threaten us with ToS-compliant griefing.
6) Don’t threaten to AR us if we contact any of you.
7) Actually TELL us your side of the story instead of dodging the questions for 2 fucking weeks.
And did it not cross your mind to give your side of your story as you were writing your post?
No, I didn’t think so!
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
HEY! I just had an idea!
Calling all Saints! Calling all Saints! All you assholes that are calling me a liar, post your chat logs of the conversations I had with you here! I will do the same! And everyone can take a look and decide for themselves who edited what! You have my permission….. but do I have yours?
The ball’s in your court, bitches!
icallbullshit
Feb 9th, 2010
watching coke supply lose it on the internet is great entertainment
more, more, more
how do ya like it, how do you like it
Jumpman Lane
Feb 9th, 2010
THIS DEF BARES LOOKIN INTO!
Senban Babii
Feb 9th, 2010
I’ve got to be honest, I wouldn’t know one motorbike from another and so I don’t have much direct interest in this story. I don’t know anyone involved one way or another.
Having said that…
@Coke Supply
“because after my friends and I got TWO WEEKS of abuse by the lowlife scum that congregates around your bike store while we were trying to legitimately come to your sim to file DMCA’s and AR’s on the copybotted content”
“And so fucking what if I investigated this story for a friend? You got a fucking problem with that Brutus? Something wrong with me investigating a story of organised crime that my friends are suffering from? Does that suddenly turn me into a liar, Brutus? Am I dishonest for defending my friends when organised crime starts tearing apart the communities that they once thrived in? YOU ARE DAMN RIGHT I AM BIASED ABOUT THAT BRUTUS.”
So this story isn’t an investigative report from an impartial reporter. While it’s plainly well-researched and even compelling in its evidence, it’s also blatantly apparent that this is an example of the Herald being used as a platform to fight your side of an argument.
If you are directly involved (as you clearly are), then you shouldn’t write the story, not unless you are able to maintain journalistic integrity and impartiality. It doesn’t matter if what you have written is a fluff piece for fun but it does matter when what you’re talking about involves DMCAs, ARs and potential consequences.
It’s never the job of a reporter to become an active participant in events. The job of a reporter is to report as a third party. Obviously these are just my own opinions and worth precisely what you paid for them. But I’ll leave you with a point from a recent blog of mine as my two cents on the issue.
“Is it a reporter’s position to judge? In fact, should the reporter be a combination of judge, jury and executioner? I honestly don’t believe so. A reporter should report the truth, as accurately as they reasonably can. They should not pass judgement in the process and hand down (or define) punishment. Such vigilante journalism may appeal to some but I think that it is the worst approach. The job of the reporter is to report the facts of a story as clearly as possible to the public so that the public can make up their own minds.
Impartiality is likewise the watchword of the reporter. When a reporter loses impartiality due to friendship, due to corruption, due to personal agenda or due to personal belief, then the reporter must be viewed as unreliable and corrupt and no longer beholden to the truth. Of course some reporters get around this issue by only writing stories about the issues that suit them rather than reporting all stories impartially. Of course, being realistic, people will write about what interests them to a large degree which is why an editor needs a team of reporters rather than one or two individuals. The team effort ensures that overall impartiality is enforced.”
Motor Loon
Feb 9th, 2010
Well said Coke.. (or shouted really lol)
When’s the next article part planned for?
corona anatine
Feb 9th, 2010
on my wall in my land parcel I have a photo of the RL bike I used to ride
does this mean i should contact the RL maker of the bike for copyright reasons
no – because it is a custom bike
just like the one at the centre of this article
there are accurate copies of rL models in sL
but a lot of the bikes ridden by sl ‘bikers’ are custom models
and therefore not subject to RL copyright [except perhaps the engines]
as for the question of whether they ride bikes in RL
probably a lot of them dont
if having to do something in RL was a pre requisite for doing an activity in sL
then a lot of groups would be smaller than they are, and there would be very few goreans and superheroes
riding a bike in RL is far easier than riding one in SL anyway, but then I have been riding bikes in RL for 32 years
big deal- not everyone can in RL, I know of at least one biker in SL who has lost both legs from bike riding in RL- would they count as a non RL biker?
so let us have less of this ‘RL biker so better than you’ elitism
all bikers in SL are SL bikers
all bikers in RL are RL bikers
if you are both then good for you
for some people the fantasy is enough, just as with any fantasy in SL
if you are a RL biker and dont like mixing with non RL bikers in SL biker clubs
then your solution to this should be easy
dont belong to an SL biker club
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
@ Senban Babii
I agree 100% with everything you said in the SECOND half of your post, but not the first. So, I will explain a few things to put my position in perspective a little more.
The friend that first contacted me about this story was Muziekfreak1980 Miles. It was HIS friends that had been copybotted and Muziek knew that I wrote for the Herald, so he called me in to investigate. I had never met or even heard of the individuals that had their work stolen at this point.
I was teleported to a place where all of the people had gathered, where both the original and stolen bikes had been rezzed. Many of the original creators were there and I was meeting them for the first time. Muziekfreak1980 Miles had not been a victim of copybotting by Black/Biack and therefore was not a part of the investigation, although strangely, he has been targeted for abuse by a few Saints members while the genuine creators of the bikes have not.
So, that was the circumstances upon which I set out to investigate the Saints of Hell. I hope you can see that my investigation into this case was not due to some kind of misguided revenge mission on behalf of a friend. However, during the investigation, I had much contact with Redtail, Hiiigh, Lincoln, Motor and other creators, and many of them are now in my friends list. And yes, I do consider them all to be my friends now, and yes, I can fully understand why people will jump on this fact as supporting evidence of their accusations of bias.
But… let me ask you all something. Should I have walked away from this case, saying “I’m sorry, I’m not going to write an article for the Herald because you are all my friends now”? The fact of the matter is that these people had been the victim of a copybot thief, and I was investigating the theft. I believe it is unrealistic to use the excuse of “you are my friends” to refrain from reporting on criminal activity. Many reporters would use that excuse. But I just don’t give a fuck. I was paid NOTHING to investigate this story and I did it to expose an organised crime ring and therefore help the Second Life community as a whole. I did my best to remain impartial but the investigation led me to believe that Biack Lisle, Sims Rang and the Saints of Hell were 100 percent guilty and complicit in the thefts and that the original creators were 100 percent truthful and just wanted to protect their endeavours. Under those circumstances, I believed the story had to be told. If the story appears to be biased, it’s because the Saints lied to me every step of the way, and the original creators told the truth every step of the way.
To be honest, this article went through many drafts, and yes, the first drafts were a lot more critical and biased than this one. Yes, I admit, I certainly did let my emotions and prejudices get the better of me in the early days of the investigation. I fucking hate parasitic scum that suck the lifeblood out of any content creator communities. However, I am wise enough to know that such an article would most certainly get – and deserve – the negative criticism that would be levelled at it. So, I rewrote the article and did my best to let the events and discussions between everyone involved describe the situation as best I could, and interspersed it all with my own thoughts and comments. I did my best to portray everything the way I believed it was.
For what it’s worth, I investigated the claims of the legitimate creators just as much as I investigated the Saints of Hell, and if you doubt this you can speak to them. Lincoln Braveheart recieved the brunt of my investigations into the creators, primarily because of a great deal of confusion had arisen due to the thief having two similar account names and also swapping the names on the bikes he stole. If you ask him I am sure he will testify to this. We all worked hard together to ensure that the article was as accurate as possible.
I am sorry if the article still appears to be biased, but like I said, it was a very one-sided and open-shut case. And if I just happen to have made friends with the affected content creators along the way, then all I can really do is offer you all my apologies but I really don’t see why that should be looked upon as a negative thing, and I won’t be promising that it’s not going to happen again in future.
@Motor Loon
Tonight I believe – fingers crossed lol
Warlock Exonar
Feb 9th, 2010
who cares about that story? there are enough copyright violations daily in secondlife. why should this case be more important than the others?
however the intent is questionable when those involved actually work for the media.
who knows if the herald isnt abused for defaming a content creator?
and the proofs… ah well… the shift bug was allready mentioned. making an old original.. just throw some old boxes together and claim it would have be done at that time..