Linden Lab To Generate Short-Term Income While Hoping For Takeover by Real Software Company
by Alphaville Herald on 10/06/10 at 10:27 pm
Company’s last-ditch plan to include gutting the virtual world experience, joining doofus nation at Facebook
By Chainsaw Al Linden
SAN FRANCISCO, June 9 – Linden Lab®, creator of 3D virtual world Second Life®, made blood run in the gutters of the city, as well as Brighton England and Singapore, to increase focus on the company’s consumer business, selling ticky-tack suburban boxes to blingtards who need a humpy bunker to sate their chairbound lusts. And buy shoes from the company’s flea market online marketplace.
Now that the company has sacked a third of its staff, the product, engineering, janitorial, and joy divisions will be combined. The software development teams will be consolidated in a shipping container waterfront suite of offices near Fisherman’s Wharf and fed as many Cheetos and Mountain Dews as they want. Customer support will consist of the nearest wino be reconfigured to provide even less of what residents have come to expect from the company.
"We’ve emerged from a two-year investment period during which, among other things, we’ve burned through the rest of Mitch Kapor’s allowance while having Nerf-ball fights. Today’s announcement about our blood-letting will help us make Second Life® more appealing to someone with a panel truck and enough cash to buy our servers and pull all the plugs on the once-vital virtual world," said Mark Kingdon, chief executive officer of Linden Lab.
Kingdon says that a potential buyer has already offered $100 for the lab’s hardware and database, and that she plans to set up the system in her apartment once she relocates her 30 cat boxes.
According to Kingdon, if this deal falls through, the restructuring also better aligns Linden Lab for two desperate goals. First, the company aims to create a browser-based virtual world experience, eliminating the need to download software. This will be made possible by recoding aspects of an advanced broswer codec known to insiders as Mosaic 1.0. Initial tests indicate that the two default avatars, Mr. and Ms. Pac-Man, can indeed eat, avoid ghosts, and have pixel sex online. “The next step,” Kingdon added, “will be to enable more advanced avatars we call Mario and Luigi to interact fully with the world’s physics, powered by a revolutionary video technology those computer guys, who know all about this stuff, call Commodore 64.”
Secondly, Linden Lab will look to extend the Second Life experience into popular social networks. "Ultimately, we want to make Second Life more accessible and relevant to a larger population of drunken college students, laid off middle-class males, and horny soccer moms," he said.
About Second Life and Linden Lab
If you are bothering to read this, you already know Second Life is. Largely ignored by outside media outlets for three years, the 3D virtual world environment has gradually declined to a haven for pornographers, shagging supermodels who are actually fat naked men living in basements, artists and academics backing up their inventory while migrating to OpenSim grids, virtual hillbillies squatting in the ruins, camper bots, and other malcontents. Second Life has become one of the largest targets for jokes in I.T. departments worldwide, and the frequent subject of conversations that begin with “Oh, I thought they were gone!” and “They were big once.”
Privately held Linden Lab, founded in 1999 by Chairman of the Board Philip Rosedale and headquartered in San Francisco, developed revolutionary technologies that could have changed the way people communicate, interact, transact, learn and create.
Goodbye to all that.
Katelyn Manamiko
Jun 11th, 2010
Amen brother.
So long, and thanks for all the fish.
Scylla Rhiadra
Jun 11th, 2010
“… the 3D virtual world environment has gradually declined to a haven for pornographers, shagging supermodels who are actually fat naked men living in basements …”
And who would know this better than the Herald?
This kind of mockery is a bit rich coming from this august rag.
Darling Brody
Jun 11th, 2010
It is sad to see some of our beloved Lindens leaving the team.
It is discusting that people are writing stories to delight in it.
It is unforgivable that other people are mis-quoting the public annoucment to make it look like LL are in trouble.
Shame on you alphavilleherald !
LL are stable and safe, and I will continue to support them !
go on… delete my comment!
Darling Brody xQx
Darien Caldwell
Jun 11th, 2010
lol, Alphaville Herald doesn’t delete comments. They aren’t delighting in it, they are doing a parody of LL’s announcement, but putting in what LL really means, rather than the doublespeak LL used. They are showing the reality of the situation.
At0m0 Beerbaum
Jun 11th, 2010
Well, who didn’t see this shit coming?
Please raise your hand so I can splash battery acid on your face.
Meif Ling
Jun 11th, 2010
I’d like to thank Linden Lab for doing me the favor of banning me before I had the chance be crestfallen by the oncoming downfall of LL.
Now I just don’t give a fuck.
Little Lost Linden
Jun 11th, 2010
Does this mean it will be a while before Windlight 2 is ready?
Yep
Jun 11th, 2010
” the 3D virtual world environment has gradually declined to a haven for pornographers, shagging supermodels who are actually fat naked men living in basements,”
You hit that nail right on the head. Mark saw what Second Life has become and has decided to clean it up and get rid of the people who allowed it to become this way.
Good riddence.
Kiddoh
Jun 11th, 2010
I wonder if we can get a list of all the people who were fired. I heard Jack got fired. :O
IntLibber Brautigan
Jun 11th, 2010
Jack is being given the choice of moving to San Fran to join the furpile, or find other employment. I’ve heard Harry got axed, but he’s not on the list that was on pastebin. Some are saying he got the same option that Jack got, which is believable, given Harry has been Jack’s reach-around man for years.
hobo kelly
Jun 11th, 2010
You mean like “full reach around” ?? OMG. I am glad that they are shutting the fake world down soon.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 11th, 2010
@ Darling “It is disgusting that people are writing stories to delight in it.”
Yeah, it’s perplexing behavior. So many of these critics claim they can’t leave because of all the social connections that are made, and therefore, they claim, they are somehow oppressed by their dissatisfaction with Linden Labs. And then they treat the company like a dictator on par with that evil guy…you know the one.
Then, when corporate decisions like this are made, they twist it as proof that SL will close soon and celebrate it. Do these people even know what they want?
@Yep “Mark saw what Second Life has become and has decided to clean it up and get rid of the people who allowed it to become this way.”
Yes, I think they’re smart to try a lot of different approaches to find all the possible applications of this new technology and serve a larger demographic, including businesses that might not want to be associated with a massive porn palace. Some approaches will work. Some won’t. But kudos to them for experimenting.
Socrates On Skid Row
Jun 11th, 2010
To Persephone, who seems to have escaped her lover Hades for a half year again, I add this about many critics who enjoy SL while railing at Linden Lab. You are perhaps too much what these modern barbarians term a “fangirl” who does not recognize the satirist’s intention.
Perhaps this explains your interesting choice in spouses, oh Queen of the Underworld. In any case, we critics are like gadflies attached to a sluggish horse to stir it to life and action.
I tried this line of reasoning at my trial in Athens, and look what it got me: the death sentence….
Scylla Rhiadra
Jun 11th, 2010
@Yep
“Mark saw what Second Life has become and has decided to clean it up and get rid of the people who allowed it to become this way.”
He did? How exactly has he done that? By tucking the adult content into a porn ghetto on Zindra? Out of sight, out of mind?
That cuts both ways: being on Zindra means that there is much less chance of the more objectionable content being monitored or controlled for the simple reason that only those who are *looking* for such content in the first place are going there.
God knows there is a great deal of content in SL I’d love to see simply disappear, but I’m not sure I believe that “cleaning it up,” with its implications of sanitization and censorship, is really the way to go in any case. What I can tell you is that if it was Kingdon’s intent to “clean” out the porn, he has certainly failed miserably.
Scylla Rhiadra
Jun 11th, 2010
“Perhaps this explains your interesting choice in spouses, oh Queen of the Underworld.”
As I seem to recall, oh peripatetic one, Persephone wasn’t given much of a “choice” about her spouse, having been instead raped by him (in both senses of that word’s etymology.)
Agreed, however, that gadflies are a good thing. Even if it does sometimes lead to unfortunate choices in post-symposium beverages.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 11th, 2010
@ Socrates Weren’t you that annoying homeless pedophile?
Curious
Jun 11th, 2010
Mark Linden is trimming the fat and getting rid of the employees that were not doing their jobs. If any of these Lindens were valuable they would still have their jobs.
Mark Lindens Vision of bringing schools and big business into Second Life will always be a fail as long as the grind performs like it is doing now. It will also be a fail as long as their is adult content in Second Life. Tucking it out of the way will not solve anything. As long as a potential Business or College can find the rather disgusting adult content in searrch, they will look elsewhere. How can you do business when the platform you are doing business on is filled with sex offenders running around dragging guys dressed as women with collars and leashes on talking about the honor of gor? Or the board meeting interupted by some dork with a prim penis on who lost their way to zindra? There are a lot of sick and disgusting people in Second Life, hopefully they will get the axe next.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 11th, 2010
@Curious “As long as a potential Business or College can find the rather disgusting adult content in searrch, they will look elsewhere.”
Yeah, it’s like the internet. Until you get rid of all the porn, no business anywhere is ever going to want to use it.
Actually, having adult content in world will no more kill Second Life than the proliferation or massive amounts of pornography, much of it entering your screen unwanted via pop-ups, on the internet has caused business to shy away from it. Instead, you just take steps to separate the two worlds so that we don’t mix business and pleasure.
BamBam
Jun 11th, 2010
If SL goes down everyone’s investment goes with it. Think you will be able to cash out? Everyone know LL double talks. It has been proven time after time. Do you really think they would tell you that their investors are pissed and are out for blood? Tweak the books and SELL SELL SELL. Get out before it collapses around them.
Oh ya, you have some huge lawsuits to pay for too!
DAM IT MAKE ME SOME MONEY OR YOU ARE ALL FIRED!!!
Back to reality… SL is doing great! We are just making a small adjustment. Nothing to see people… move along… move along
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 11th, 2010
“Socrates Weren’t you that annoying homeless pedophile?”
This can be considered one of the reasons soem people consider arguments as brilliant.
tl;dr
I do I have ties in SL socially, but the user experience sucks. You act as if I have to aitehr stay and praise LL or just gtfo, and that I have no option to bitch. Kindly stop repeating yourself.
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 11th, 2010
“This can be considered one of the reasons soem people consider arguments as brilliant.”
Sorry I really fucked up taht statement. Correction: This can be considered why some people don’t see your arguments as brilliant.
Socrates On Skid Row
Jun 11th, 2010
@Gaara,
“Socrates Weren’t you that annoying homeless pedophile?”
Guilty as charged. But it took corrupting the youth of Athens, offending the gods, and making weak arguments seem strong that got me the hemlock.
That’s the Athenian version.
My version: I wouldn’t put out when Alcibiades wanted some love in that wonderful little steambath on the Agora. He got me framed. The man’s a looker, granted, but his mind was just not strong enough for me to want to lay pipe in that culvert.
Sorry if we Classicists are so annoying. I’ll go lie down and sip my hemlock now.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 11th, 2010
@Gaara “You act as if I have to aitehr stay and praise LL or just gtfo”
This is what’s called a straw man. I’ve never said people couldn’t or shouldn’t criticize LL. Anytime I suggest that dissatisfied users of SL shouldn’t mischaracterize their plight as being comparable to a Jew in the Holocaust, you respond with this characterization of my argument as being absolute unquestioning praise of LL and a belief that all those that don’t love it should leave. I understand. You can’t refute my arguments, so you resort to irrational fallacies in hope of having some kind of response.
No, if you’re unhappy with the services LL provides, you should criticize them. But if you act like they’re this corrupt dictatorship ruling over your life, don’t react with such self-righteous indignation when I suggest you’re greatly exaggerating your situation. More precisely, I would suggest you’re full of shit.
You have a choice to leave. You choose not to. It is a personal choice you’ve made, and you could make another. You don’t. Therefore, LL has done better than anyone else and provided you with a service you’re simply not willing to give up. Feel free to voice your complaints in hopes they’ll continue to improve that service, but don’t act like you’re any different from the guy whose order McDonald’s screwed up for the 50th time. The only difference is that, this early in the game, no one’s built the Wendy’s of SL to give us more consumer choices. But that’s not LL’s responsibility, now is it?
Persephone Bolero
Jun 11th, 2010
@Socrates “Sorry if we Classicists are so annoying. I’ll go lie down and sip my hemlock now.”
Oh yeah. That’s just what it’s like to be a critic of LL. It’s exactly the same thing. How do you guys stand it? You poor helpless martyrs.
Karen Palen
Jun 11th, 2010
I too had a lot of friends on Second Life, but guess what they are all around on various OpenSImulator grids now!
I know of no enterprise that has ever succeeded when they alienate their customers!
Yep
Jun 11th, 2010
Actually the adult content is all not packed away in zindra or on adult classified estates. There are numerious hits in search using keywords that should not appear unless the adult content tab is checked. So anyone under 18 can visit these places and whip their willies. Maybe things will get better once the surviving Lindens wake up and decide to do their jobs or they will be packing like the other 30%.
People must be pretty hard up in Real life to come into cartoon land to have sex.
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 11th, 2010
“This is what’s called a straw man. I’ve never said people couldn’t or shouldn’t criticize LL. Anytime I suggest that dissatisfied users of SL shouldn’t mischaracterize their plight as being comparable to a Jew in the Holocaust, you respond with this characterization of my argument as being absolute unquestioning praise of LL and a belief that all those that don’t love it should leave. I understand. You can’t refute my arguments, so you resort to irrational fallacies in hope of having some kind of response. ”
My response to this portion of your counter-argument:
“Actually, Kiddoh is very right. As I previously stated, some people prefer to use SL over messengers(I have friends in SL who have Gmail, but they’re on SL more than Gmail, so I can talk to them more often in SL). I am indeed stuck in SL for that reason, friends. Is it a choice to leave or stay? Yes, but it’s not so simple as saying “okay, I’m not satisfied here, g’bye”. No, it’s a difficult chocie, and it’d result, if I left, in an inability to talk to some friends I’ve known for aroudn a year now. One might as well say that’s not a chocie at all, but an ultimatum.”
“@Gaara “it’s a difficult chocie”
Yes, it is. Because Linden Labs is doing a pretty good job on a lot of things that make it worth staying.”
This can also be a counter to a previous argument I chose originally not to refute because I felt it would just be a blatant waste of my time. The one in which, I believe, you asked how you were putting words in my mouth.
“I’m not sure what I said that you felt was altering your opinion. In the quote you provided above this statement, I was merely stating my own position.”
And by appearance of text, your position seems to be you praise LL(see the above quote in which you responded to my saying it would be a difficult choice to leave SL). Personally, I have no problem with this. I could care less. But you basically chose to put that one particular sentence, “It’s a difficult choice” first then tacked on how you believe LL’s what make SL so great, before getting to the rest of my argument. That is what annoyed me, because I’m pretty sure LL hasn’t done much to improve user experience the last couple years. In fact, I stated this before you chose to claim the opinion(at least I hope you’re aware that what you said in regards to LL making SL so great was an opinion)on a previous article:
“I’m just hoping LL could do(or rather could have done) a better job. There was a bug that caused stuff in people’s inventory to disappear that was around for years. I dunno if it’s fixed now or still around, but if it is they sure took their time with it. Similarly, there’s been a group bug. I experienced this today even, logged in and even though my October Undead tag was on me I didn’t show as being a member of any groups until I re-logged. Evidence that to this day they have chosen not to fix it or to not put too much effort into it.”
Finally, I can also say the same to you:
“Socrates Weren’t you that annoying homeless pedophile?”
This is basically on the level of my comment to you in which I asked how the trolling was going(which, in case you have yet to tell by now, was originally(see keyword: originally) a joke). I’m not so sure now.
“No, if you’re unhappy with the services LL provides, you should criticize them. But if you act like they’re this corrupt dictatorship ruling over your life, don’t react with such self-righteous indignation when I suggest you’re greatly exaggerating your situation. More precisely, I would suggest you’re full of shit.”
Am I unhappy with LL’s services? Yes. Why? To get to the basics, the actual product LL provdes is in origin and natural, original state, a barren wasteland we call a sandbox in which the content creators(I point them out as such because I am not one in the slightest)make everything possible. Sure, SL has made the tools with which the creators build and shape, and the tools to script and add neat affects to stuff but that’s about it.
[Please note that the following argument also applies to the first section of the counter-argument that I have quoted above, as well as the second quoted segment for the purpose of explanation]
For LL or anyone for that matter to say that this is a glorious world that LL provides, and expect that to be a full truth, is bullshit. LL made the tools of creation, and the players made SL what it is today in almost every factor except functionality. Yet LL is constantly proud of it in a sense that suggests they’ve made it all possible. They’ve only opened the doors in the beginning to a barren world that could evolve and become something glorious, and players made it glorious, then became responsible for running it. Lately, they haven’t aparrantly done so well on that, and for a one third employee cut to take place could very well mean they’ll have a more difficult time keeping SL running well unless they do so with great efficiency.
[The following now applies to just this particular segment of quoted text in Persephone's counter-argument]
Do I view SL as some big force running my life? Hell no. They just run SL. But how do I view them? Like any other corporate based group that runs an online game. I also play Last Chaos, which I do feel is gonna be around much longer than SL because of some nice contracts that are going on with it, that aparrantly have something to do with the original creators handing the game over to another group that is known to do a better job at running these things. But the people in charge of it currently and the original creators have gotten a bit overzealous with the money they make
I just view them as any other group that holds complete ownership of an online game(say that because the current head employees didn’t make SL, they just squeezed toheir way to the top and gained control), who become a bit too aware of the power they actually hold and all too willing to use it.
“You have a choice to leave. You choose not to. It is a personal choice you’ve made, and you could make another. You don’t. Therefore, LL has done better than anyone else and provided you with a service you’re simply not willing to give up.
Feel free to voice your complaints in hopes they’ll continue to improve that service, but don’t act like you’re any different from the guy whose order McDonald’s screwed up for the 50th time. The only difference is that, this early in the game, no one’s built the Wendy’s of SL to give us more consumer choices. But that’s not LL’s responsibility, now is it?”
Could you say anything more bullshit than this? Honestly…..
I’ve eaten at places like McDonalds and Burger King more than most other local restaurant latey. Does that mean I like their services better than any other? Not entirely. I just like their prices.
Now compare these statements of yours with me:
-> “It is a personal choice you’ve made”
-> “Therefore, LL has done better than anyone else”
-> “provided you with a service you’re simply not willing to give up”
First compare them to each other, then with my comments:
-> “I am indeed stuck in SL for that reason, friends.”
-> “it’s a difficult chocie, and it’d result, if I left, in an inability to talk to some friends I’ve known for aroudn a year now”
-> “One might as well say that’s not a chocie at all, but an ultimatum”
Now, I’m not trying to put words in your mouth myself here, but it sounds like, from what you’re saying when broken down and analyzed, that my choice to not leave SL because of friends who generally use it more than any messenger I may have(yahoo, gmail, and I have a MSN floating around somewhere out there)equals me enjoying the user experience. Yes, I am grateful. I am grateful that my comment to the Club Carnage Owners group I made just a bit ago while idling in-world at the club could not be put through. And that literally for the possibly one millionth time the owners and managers group chats have been plagued with delays and timed out comments, and utterly fucked up. I am grateful that there are days when I am trying to work there that I crash every five to ten minutes. I am utterly grateful at the wonderful job LL is doing. Get it now?
“Feel free to voice your complaints in hopes they’ll continue to improve that service, but don’t act like you’re any different from the guy whose order McDonald’s screwed up for the 50th time”
I can definietly say that I am different, because my order was screwed up more than 50 times(am I of course making a metaphor referring to SL here, not McDonalds).
“The only difference is that, this early in the game, no one’s built the Wendy’s of SL to give us more consumer choices. But that’s not LL’s responsibility, now is it?”
But many times in the past LL has had the chance to become such. It’s called improving user performance and experience. Something that despite what they think, hasn’t gone that well lately.
Have I satisfied your desire for a decent argument, or is this still irrational fallacies.
Karen Palen
Jun 11th, 2010
@Gaara Sandalwood this is exactly the kind of mindless rant that has turned off so many to Second Life!
Combine that with Linden Lab’s equally mindless responses and it is easy to see why people are abandoning SL in droves!
Fortunately there is a WHOLE RANGE of alternatives, most of them actually welcome different opinions. 3rd Rock Grid actually has a “Space Alien Welcome Center”! LOL
Come on folks this is SUPPOSED to be fun!!!!
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 11th, 2010
I have an OS Grid account, and I said I was planning on checking out Blue Mars. And while I’m at it may as well check out 3rd Rock Grid while I’m at it at some point, when I get the time. I don’t see how it’s a mindless rant though.
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 11th, 2010
And I think I could becoem addicted to 3rd Rock(due to my recent addiction of Spore).
Persephone Bolero
Jun 11th, 2010
@Gaara What is clear from your response is that you have no clue how business works.
First, one side note before I educate you on how consumer choices works in the world of business…
“This is basically on the level of my comment to you in which I asked how the trolling was going… I’m not so sure now.”
You act like these insults I lob come out of no where and are just unwarranted attacks against innocent bystanders. That was directed at Socrates who said this first: “You are perhaps too much what these modern barbarians term a “fangirl” who does not recognize the satirist’s intention.”
You really need to take a hard look at what people here say to those who in any question the “Linden Labs is an evil dictatorship destroying democracy and freedom across the entire globe” narrative that is so regularly promoted here. You only notice my insults because I disagree with you. When people more in agreement with you say nasty things to me first, you just gloss over it like it never happened.If someone insults me, I will insult them back, usually to a slightly higher degree. Perhaps it causes things to escalate, but it doesn’t make me a troll.
“For LL or anyone for that matter to say that this is a glorious world that LL provides, and expect that to be a full truth, is bullshit.”
When have I said they provide a glorious world? Why can’t you understand that I’m not questioning the complaints? I’m questioning the characterization of Linden Labs as an evil unstoppable tyrant. It’s not. It’s a company producing a product that people chose to use or not. You choose to use it.
“But the people in charge of it currently and the original creators have gotten a bit overzealous with the money they make”
But if they’re making money, it’s because people are VOLUNTARILY choosing to use their product. This idea that greed leads companies to produce inferior products that people don’t want to use is about a schizophrenic view as you can get. How does one make money producing a product that makes people unhappy? Obviously, LL is producing a product that a lot of people want, and if money is their only concern — as is the case with businesses since they exist for the sole purpose of making money — then that desire you call “greed” will drive them to produce a better product. That’s how business works since they have to get you to use their product to make money. Arguably, a lot of people want more from the company, but the company STILL offers something so valuable that people keep coming back for more.
Again — And I have to keep repeating this for the business illiterate here — I’m not saying you shouldn’t complain. I’m saying, you’re making a choice to use a product here. It’s your choice. You are not a victim.
“I just view them as any other group that holds complete ownership of an online game”
They control it legally. So, the fact they didn’t create it is irrelevant. That’s like pointing out that McDonald’s didn’t invent the hamburger. Yeah. And?
“I’ve eaten at places like McDonalds and Burger King more than most other local restaurant latey. Does that mean I like their services better than any other? Not entirely. I just like their prices.”
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s look at this real closely. You don’t like the service you get at McDonald’s. You “just like their prices.” So, in other words, the company offers you something of value over that of any of their competitors. Wow. It’s like you’re making a consumer choice here. How amazing!
Other food providers offer products with far superior service. But you prefer the low prices at McDonald’s over the superior service you could get at say…Red Lobster. And you want to say there’s no choice involved here? Are you even aware of your own thought processes and how you come to the conclusions inside your own head?
Well, the same is true for SL. Linden Labs produces buggy software, an complicated user interface, an unpredictable land market (my personal peeve), etc, etc. But they have offered you a platform where your create social connections that you’re not willing to give up. Just like McDonald’s produces crappy service, but its prices you’re not willing to give up. Again, you are making choices. Why aren’t you aware of this?
“Yes, I am grateful.”
Who cares? This isn’t charity. This is business. Your gratitude or lack thereof is irrelevant to me or Linden Labs. The *only* thing they care about is your level of satisfaction as a customer…and here’s the important part…ready?… OVER THEIR COMPETITORS. That’s all that matters. Do you really think McDonald’s cares if your grateful for the service? They don’t want your gratitude. They want your patronage, because that determines their revenues. And what businesses you patronize is ENTIRELY a personal choice you make. That’s how business works. Why can’t you understand this?
“But many times in the past LL has had the chance to become such.”
How does a business become its own competitor? Seriously. Answer me that. My guess is you’re not entirely clear what competition is or how it functions in a free market. I don’t have time to explain it all to you. I’ll just say that a business can’t become its own competitor. And through competition, businesses provide better products and services as they pander to the needs of their customers. The lack of competition due to the relatively newness of the SL product means less competition. That influences how a company responds to its customers. But it’s not the company’s responsibility to create its own competitors anymore than it can be its own competitor.
“Have I satisfied your desire for a decent argument, or is this still irrational fallacies.”
Not a decent argument, no. But you did, for the most part, stay clear of any straw men. Thank you.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 11th, 2010
@Gaara “I have an OS Grid account, and I said I was planning on checking out Blue Mars. And while I’m at it may as well check out 3rd Rock Grid while I’m at it at some point, when I get the time.”
You should. Perhaps they’ll offer you something of value over that of SL. And if LL’s revenues fall due to competition, they’ll have a lot of pressure to get those people, like you, back. That’s how business works.
While your at it, try IMVU. It doesn’t have the animation of SL, but you can absolutely create social connections there as strong as you ever could in SL.
Karen Palen
Jun 12th, 2010
Don’t just pick on 3rd Rock Grid – they are working VERY hard to build a community of “citizens” (in the Athenian sense) rather than serfs (in the Second Life sense)!
HOWEVER there are literally HUNDREDS of OpenSimulator grids out there with every orientation goal and TOS imaginable!
BTW “OpenSIm” is the trademark of a medical software company which has NOTHING to do with 3d worlds! Such is the universal world of the Internet …
Karen Palen
Jun 12th, 2010
@Persephone, @Gaara – don’t you guys EVER get sore finders form all those rants?
Anything worth saying can be said in 1 minute (TV News producer)
Sad fact is that she is 95% RIGHT, but you DO have to thoroughly know what you are talking about! Sigh…
Persephone Bolero
Jun 12th, 2010
@Karen “Anything worth saying can be said in 1 minute (TV News producer)”
I disagree. This isn’t a news report. It’s a debate. That’s why they tend to take hours and not minutes.
Karen Palen
Jun 12th, 2010
@Persephone You too have the right to be WRONG! LMAO
This is SUPPOSED to be about having fun – remember???
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 12th, 2010
Well Persephone, to each their own. I know how a business works. But I’m not comparing LL to a tyrannical overlord or anything.
“When have I said they provide a glorious world?”
You may have not claimed they made a glorious world specifically, but you have made many comments praising them for the product(or maybe I’m reading them wrong). I can quote them for the nth time if you wish.
” Why can’t you understand that I’m not questioning the complaints? I’m questioning the characterization of Linden Labs as an evil unstoppable tyrant. It’s not. It’s a company producing a product that people chose to use or not. You choose to use it.”
But LL has nothing to do whatsoever with me using SL. I’ve been saying that in just about every reply to you lately. And I never said you were questioning the complaints. Why would I? You yourself stated you too have complaints.
“Other food providers offer products with far superior service. But you prefer the low prices at McDonald’s over the superior service you could get at say…Red Lobster. And you want to say there’s no choice involved here?”
Yes.
“Are you even aware of your own thought processes and how you come to the conclusions inside your own head?”
I AM aware that I don’t make enough money monthly to regularly eat fancy. I never said I always go to McDonalds or BK. Why just a couple days ago my dad and I went to an all-you-can eat Chinese buffet. But I can’t afford to go to Red Lobster once a week. You’re a real business genius, notice how we’re in a recession here? And you took that comment of mine the completely wrong way. What I meant was that I don’t like McDonalds more than Red Lobster(in fact I barely like them at all except for their chicken sandwiches), but Red Lobster’s out of my range financially to eat there regularly, so when I do eat out it’s generally at a cheap place. So yes, not much choice there unless I want less money for the necessities. Like bills.
I wasn’t answering you on the sole basis of service quality, but also my inability to afford the good service. I was making the comparison to SL because similarly I could go for a much better 3D world, but there’d be no point because the bulk of the people I’ve known for the past year still use SL. Although I must admit, one(my friends)is a want, and one(my monthly bills)is a need. So it is a tad arbitrary.
“Obviously, LL is producing a product that a lot of people want, and if money is their only concern — as is the case with businesses since they exist for the sole purpose of making money — then that desire you call “greed” will drive them to produce a better product.”
EXPLAIN to me this product. Is it SL? All I recall is Viewer 2.0 and it was so clunky most of the people I know switched to the allowed 3rd party viewers.
“They control it legally. So, the fact they didn’t create it is irrelevant. That’s like pointing out that McDonald’s didn’t invent the hamburger. Yeah. And?”
Actually, my refusing to say “creators” was a personal preference, not a part of this argument. Perhaps I should have made it clear. It’s just like how I refuse to call Sci-Fi “SyFy”. But that’s all irellevant.
As for controlling it legally, there have been many attempted court cases recently over soem bs stuff in teh new ToS among other things.
“I’m not saying you shouldn’t complain. I’m saying, you’re making a choice to use a product here. It’s your choice. You are not a victim.”
What you are saying is that I am whining about it, then again I could be reading this wrong too.
Refuting your arguments with my own is not whining. Just sayin’.
“How does a business become its own competitor? Seriously. Answer me that. My guess is you’re not entirely clear what competition is or how it functions in a free market. I don’t have time to explain it all to you. I’ll just say that a business can’t become its own competitor. And through competition, businesses provide better products and services as they pander to the needs of their customers. The lack of competition due to the relatively newness of the SL product means less competition. That influences how a company responds to its customers. But it’s not the company’s responsibility to create its own competitors anymore than it can be its own competitor.”
Again, you msiunderstood my comment. I meant LL could attempt to offer an even better product and service and BECOME something better than it is now.
Or, in simpler terms, and using the metaphors you are: LL could evolve and BECOME that Wendy’s before any other platform does instead of meagerly remaining McDonalds. They COULD. But I really don’t see them trying to as of late.
“Who cares? This isn’t charity. This is business. Your gratitude or lack thereof is irrelevant to me or Linden Labs.”
It is truly amazing how I spelled the word “sarcasm” out in big capitalized and near maximum sized font letters in that single paragraph and you failed to see it.
Ahem:
“Yes, I am grateful. I am grateful that my comment to the Club Carnage Owners group I made just a bit ago while idling in-world at the club could not be put through. And that literally for the possibly one millionth time the owners and managers group chats have been plagued with delays and timed out comments, and utterly fucked up. I am grateful that there are days when I am trying to work there that I crash every five to ten minutes. I am utterly grateful at the wonderful job LL is doing. Get it now?”
“The *only* thing they care about is your level of satisfaction as a customer…and here’s the important part…ready?… OVER THEIR COMPETITORS. That’s all that matters. Do you really think McDonald’s cares if your grateful for the service? They don’t want your gratitude. They want your patronage, because that determines their revenues. And what businesses you patronize is ENTIRELY a personal choice you make. That’s how business works. Why can’t you understand this?”
Again, I understand how a business works just fine. You seem to be taking my comments out of context here. The fact of the amtter was that is not how SL began. SL began as an idea of a new glorious world(see what I did thar?)in virtual space and it was torn down slowly and surely and turned into a big corporation. That is primarily what angers me. I mean, it doesn’t take a genius to see that SL is more heavily becoming a corporation than teh level of which it used to be. But paying for a premium account doesn’t change much. A premium user still experiences the same bugs, teh same chat delays and messups, the same crashes, etcetera, that users with free accounts do.
“Not a decent argument, no. But you did, for the most part, stay clear of any straw men. Thank you.”
My opinion is that I just think the both of us are blowing this way out of proportion, honestly.
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 12th, 2010
And Karen: I am having fun.
Karen Palen
Jun 12th, 2010
Gaara Sandalwood And Karen: I am having fun.
Yes long rants can be fun for the author’s ego.
The whole problem is that Sl and the associated drama queans have long ago ceased being fun for the rest of us!
One of the nicest things about abandoning Second Life has been to get away from these endless rants about nothing of any importance.
That really is the problem – SL has been losing productive (i.e. paying) users for quite a long time now. Just looking at the number of people logged in every day shows that!. It has been several years since I saw the total under 10K, but at night there is routinely less than that now at night – and 90% of THOSE are “bots”.
The entire drama about “piracy” really boils down to “I am not selling as much as I think I should”. Of course we all know that there could NEVER be any other explanation for bad sales – like no one left to buy stuff.
All of the self righteous sophistry in the world won’t cover that up!
I have run stores on Sl and now on various OS grids, even though the OS grids have less than 100 people on them I am selling far more on those grids! This seems to be the case with other vendors I talk to as well.
The only “support” that I have ever received from LL has been new and restrictive rules. EVERY other grid has actually helped me fix problems!
RIP Second Life – it was fun while it lasted.
Darkfoxx
Jun 12th, 2010
I dont get where this whole doomsday thinking is coming from really.
SL is losing paying customers. Yes, people are a bit unhappy by how LL does things, and with the state of the worldwide economy, its logical that SL is one of the things people will spend less money on. I never really spent money on it, but sadly my RC hobby had a little less funding lately. Shit happens.
LL is cutting staff and making changes, because they’re a company that is losing customers, and they need to downsize just like many others. A company’s goal is to make profit. If income reduces, costs have to be cut to keep the profit. And Im also betting that they’re very buisy getting rid of those employees that are not doing a good a job as they’d want them to. They might be doing a good job, but everyone who’s ever had a boss, they always demand 150%. Even if that’s not really doable.
Please dont see this as LL fanboying, I am far from that, I have more then a few complaints about the Lindens. If I ever get a Linden bear my use for it will be target practice.
All im saying, I can kinda understand why people are leaving and why LL is (a.o.) cutting staff. Im not seeing the demise of SL coming very soon, there are only a few real competitors out there. Biggest one OSgrid I think… I dont know Blue Mars or the others.
And I dont count IMVU as a competitor for SL, its more a competitor for Habbo.
Lighten up ppl, if SL dies, all your friends that kept you in SL will need to move to a different platform with you, and if it doesnt, maybe the changes in LL will at least help to create a more technically stable platform. Cause I dont see how they want to sell a buggy system to any company; if real life money is involved, companies want stuff to WORK. Even a faulty copyer can cost huge amounts of income, hence why they’re usually fixed in hours. Good service, or no buisness with RL buisnesses.
PS
I dont like McDonalds because they make horrible tasting food for prices that are a tad steep. I can eat two evening meals for the price of one satisfying McDonalds meal. I choose to go to their competitor, the local snackbar, because they *do* know what a burger is supposed to taste like.
Kudo’s to Mcdonalds tho, its almost art what they manage to create out of a perfectly good tasting animal. (im not even sure its cow…?)
Patasha Marikh
Jun 12th, 2010
Well the way I see it the 800lb gorilla is now down to 560lbs.
The other gorillas are still around 200lbs, so the playing field is leveling but LL still holds the biggest sway over the community.
But for how much longer?
Danziel Lane
Jun 12th, 2010
@Darkfox:
Thanks for your post, it made me think more about all the stuff.
“I dont get where this whole doomsday thinking is coming from really.”
If a company announces such a deep cut (30%) and promises customers to become better and to increase service and customer satisfaction, it’s indeed an announcement that the company is in big trouble.
I am still seeking in my memory about a company who announced something like that and still was alive half a year later with the same products and serviced … or better ones as promised. All that I can remember do no longer exist or have dramatically minimized their products or services to survive.
Plus: look at who they fire(d). They fired the good ones, those who were in charge, those who built up the whole thing, technically and as a community of humans. And they fired almost all of those who managed communication to the second biggest language group, the Germans. Katrin and Ethan were right in the middle of some great projects … and are history now.
My personal RL experience from the late 80-ies about such management behaviour is, when I was fired from an IT company. I was the team leader of the only team that really made profit, but they fired me and my best programmers to cut costs … and while the judge ordered them to pay me a compensation in three monthly rates, I just got 1 (one, eine, un, una) rate, they didn’t even survive one more month to pay my second rate, but went bancrupt at great speed.
They told the same as M now: “We have to do some cuts to make our service better and streamlined and bla bla”. And they did the same: they fired those who were the best (cause they earned a bit more than the others) and thought, they could increase custumer satisfaction this way.
See, that is, where the doomsday thinking comes from. Managers don’t announce things like that, unless the ship is sinking already.
However, I have hopes in two ways:
First is: there might be an investor, who might see that M’s plan to change SL from the “Second Life” (the first real great virtual world) to the “Threethousandsixhundredtwentyfourth Browsergame”, who will take over and see the chances to go on building up the future of virtual worlds.
Second is that those fired will easily find new jobs in this great market of virtual worlds and that they might find together with some investor to build up … maybe starting with some Open Grid … to a new virtual world maybe “Third Life”. The power and experience for a great future is free and available now on the job market. A smart guy with some money would be able to come up with a new verstion of Philipps dream very soon.
So, no doomsday thinking here, just hope.
Plus: If a manager goes public and makes an announcement like that, he definitely says that he had miserably failed.
It’s great to hear, that M openly tells that.
His next step should be to give way for a manager, who knows about what can be done and what has to be done.
“…. and with the state of the worldwide economy, its logical that SL is one of the things people will spend less money on.”
Well, everyone blames the state of the worldwide economy. All I see is, that M tries to copy those successful companies, that bring easy, quick made browser games in 2D (and boring at least after a while) but are used by millions.
M runs after those numbers of customers published, not noticing that raising corn or cows in a farm browser game is a totally different way to kill the boring dead time of unemployed people. SL is different, SL is (at the state now) not vor millions, but for those thousands, that are ready to design and create the future of learning on the internet, on makeing social contacts over the internet and on using the internet for the top of the Maslow Pyramide, creativity.
SL is a great market. People pay 295 US$ per month for a simple server, which all over the internet is available for less than 100 US$.
People want to be part of this development and many are ready to pay for it, to help the company hiring good employees.
You could build up a great company on these fantastic people that are the residents of SL, however, M had decided differently.
“I never really spent money on it, but sadly my RC hobby had a little less funding lately. Shit happens.”
But isn’t is amazing, how many people pay 295 each month to create this virtual world?
And to give access to those, who want to join for free?
I run a sim too, and I am happy, when people come to my sandbox and found a hidden place where they can build their stuff though they do not pay, neither to LL nor to me. That is the spirit Philipp dreamt of and that could be the base of a wealthy company.
But this spirit is contrary to that of M and to that of people who only whine: awwww, the state of worldwide economy! We must suffer so much, because all do suffer.
No, we will not get out of this state of worldwide economy, if we stay complaining about it and drive down any business that might develop into some future.
SL could be the future. Instead, if I understood M right, SL will be renamed to 6324th Browsergame.
“LL is cutting staff and making changes, because they’re a company that is losing customers, and they need to downsize just like many others.”
1. Which company survived a downsize like that with the same quality of products and services?
2. Why are they cutting the best pieces? You need the best to carry on with less, not those lazy ones who hid behind the best.
3. LL is losing customers, cause they do not communicate to them. And as they fire those who tried to communicate, this will even get worse.
“A company’s goal is to make profit.”
M can have (could have had) it. There are thousands and thousands who pay 295 each months for a size 100 server.
But he looks at Habbo and Twitter and such silly stuff and dreams of the numbers.
“They might be doing a good job, but everyone who’s ever had a boss, they always demand 150%.”
Of course they do. I always did that as a boss. And some give even 200%.
However: bosses make as many mistakes as employees.
The difference is, that only the good bosses are ready to learn from their mistakes.
At the end, as you say it, the customers are to be blamed, they become less and pay less.
M could have made a lot of money with the customers that he had … only he did not care about customers.
“Lighten up ppl, if SL dies, all your friends that kept you in SL will need to move to a different platform with you, and if it doesnt, maybe the changes in LL will at least help to create a more technically stable platform.”
Yep. There are 100 of great techicians, marketing people, community managers, service people and more on the free job market.
They might find together and build up a great new platform, built with their experience and suiting the demands of crative people that want to do more than wasting boredom in browser games.
Either the fired people find together or someone will give M a few billions and buy SL/LL .. so at the end we might have not only one, but TWO great virtual worlds after this. Plus so many open grids …
“I dont like McDonalds because they make horrible tasting food for prices that are a tad steep. I can eat two evening meals for the price of one satisfying McDonalds meal. I choose to go to their competitor, the local snackbar, because they *do* know what a burger is supposed to taste like.”
Yep. But if the boss of the local snackbar decides: I want to be a metoo company, I want to be like McD … would you still go there and claim that’s a good idea?
You are so right. McD is not selling food or satisfying meals or even well cooked nutrition. What they sell is the idea of quickly getting your stomach filled with cool stuff that all others also eat.
M decided to be another Habbo or Twitter … like the chef of your local snackbar might decide to be another McD.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 12th, 2010
“You may have not claimed they made a glorious world specifically, but you have made many comments praising them for the product(or maybe I’m reading them wrong).”
You are. While I have said that they’ve done some things right and were pioneers and haven’t gone into great detail over my own grievances, I think there’s plenty of room for improvement. And I can’t think of a product you couldn’t say that about.
“So yes, not much choice there unless I want less money for the necessities. Like bills.”
Wait. So if Red Lobster offered you their meals at McDonald’s prices, would you choose to eat there instead of McDonald’s? But how could you do that without making a choice to do so?
I’m not talking about your life circumstances here. I’m talking about your choices as a consumer. You may not choose your level of wealth you enjoy in life. But you damn sure do make consumer choices. Price just happens to be a quality of a product that is important to you, which is true for many consumers.
But you’re saying that since you don’t choose every circumstance in your life, you don’t actually make any consumer choices, ever. This would be like saying that since you never consciously decided to be a person who likes hamburgers over pizza, you never actually have any personal preferences. Instead, your personal preferences are just thrust upon you from some source outside yourself.
It appears you have this whole outlook on life where everything is a series of circumstances that is thrust upon you and therefore you have very little if any choice in life. From cradle to grave, you don’t even have choices about what foods you eat. Instead, what you eat is based on arbitrary circumstances over which you have no control. And if that’s your outlook, there’s no point in arguing over it. It’s enough to say, I disagree and feel my life is full of choice, freedoms, and opportunities. And the fact my choices are sometimes influenced by circumstances I may not have consciously chosen does not diminish the individual empowerment of my choice one bit.
“SL began as an idea of a new glorious world(see what I did thar?)in virtual space and it was torn down slowly and surely and turned into a big corporation.”
LL was organized as a corporation from its founding. So, this comment makes no sense. The board running the corporation may be making decisions right now that don’t appeal to you as a customer, but they have always been a corporation. They just took their business in a different direction, and it may be a bad choice. It’s theirs to make. It’s your choice to make as to whether or not you keep using their product. Again, life is full of choices for everyone.
“Again, I understand how a business works just fine.”
No, I’m sorry. You really don’t.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 12th, 2010
@Karen “I have run stores on Sl and now on various OS grids, even though the OS grids have less than 100 people on them I am selling far more on those grids! This seems to be the case with other vendors I talk to as well.”
This is interesting and appealing. My businesses in SL have flopped hard. And it happened all the sudden. I even went so far as to create a whole new, much more sophisticated product line. No luck. If I could make money on the OS grid, that would VERY much appeal to me as a consumer and would absolutely steal me away from Linden Labs in a heartbeat.
Persephone Bolero
Jun 12th, 2010
@Darkfoxx “And I dont count IMVU as a competitor for SL, its more a competitor for Habbo.”
Well, sort of. It’s like Red Lobster is not really a competitor of McDonald’s (which does have crappy food but is oh so so convenient when you’re late for work). They both offer food but cater to entirely different markets.
IMVU has more similarity to SL, but it is quite different. It’s more of a sophisticated chat room than a serious platform. I haven’t used it since late 2006 when I moved to SL. So, I’m not even sure what it is today.
@Denziel “There are 100 of great…service people…on the free job market.They might find together and build up a great new platform…. ”
That would be so cool if they did. I’d give their product a try.
JustMe
Jun 13th, 2010
““I have run stores on Sl and now on various OS grids, even though the OS grids have less than 100 people on them I am selling far more on those grids! This seems to be the case with other vendors I talk to as well.”
Name some grids where this is true ! Even with a little store in SL and no advertising, I still consistently sell my products, simply because there are so many people to sell to. It’s hard to believe that a grid with only 100 people on line can be a place to consistently sell product …. those grids usually only have 3000 or so members in all , most of who never are on line. Once the 100 to 200 people buy my products, what then ?
Kiddoh
Jun 13th, 2010
“Once the 100 to 200 people buy my products, what then ?”
Make another product.
Karen Palen
Jun 13th, 2010
“those grids usually only have 3000 or so members in all , most of who never are on line. Once the 100 to 200 people buy my products, what then”
Only 100 or so are on line at one time, but the big difference is (a) those 3000 are REAL peoples, (b) almost everyone is active, and (c) there are hundreds of mini-grids out there!
The end result is that you sell to 100 or so out of the 3000 and have stuff selling of maybe 20 grids!
Contrast that with 50K Avs, 60+% being bots, and maybe 60% of the rest are tourists, griefers, or copybotters.
Whatever the reason, there are VERY few who come to actually buy something!
Actually to judge by all the whining on the various SL blogs, I wonder if 90% of your visitors aren’t pirates LOL
It is a totally different environment!
And yes you DO have to keep making products and keeping your stores up to date etc.
It also helps to be the only store in a world who offers that type of product – whatever product you are selling. Not hard to do with several hundred grids!
Well all right only some of them have in world money so you have to sell via pay pal or something.
Gaara Sandalwood
Jun 14th, 2010
“they have always been a corporation”
But in the beginning it wasn’t so capitalist. Then it became, over time, this.
Karen Palen
Jun 14th, 2010
“But in the beginning it wasn’t so capitalist. Then it became, over time, this.”
Isn’t the technical term for that “Killing the Goose that lays the Golden eggs”
It is truly sad – at one time Second Life was SUCH fun with some really neat people.
Well at least the people still seem to be around on the various OpenSimulator grids and some day soon we will see a fully functional Hypergrid!
The nice thing about having hundreds of grids is that there really CAN be one for every taste, kink and interest!
When the “Internet” was “ARPANET” (LONG AGO …) there were similar problems and rants. Once the “dogpile mode” got established then the whole thing became popular and MUCH more useful. I think there is a 3d parallel here as do many others.