Saints of Hell MC Implicated In Second Life Content Theft – Part 1
by Alphaville Herald on 08/02/10 at 8:23 am
Motorcycle and parts theft copybot outrage!
by Coke Supply, Investigative Reporter
[In this multipart tale of dark dealings in the Second Life motorcycle and parts trade Coke Supply delves into the shady activities of Black Lisle, AKA BiackLisle, of the Saints of Hell Motorbike Club to reveal anastonishing level of complicity amongst the group's leadership withregards to the apparent theft of the most famous and skilfully crafted motorbikes ever created in Second Life. - the editrix]
Content creators Redtail Magic, Karyn Vaher, Trinity Hunghi, and HiiighJinx collaborated over a period of four months to create the LakhotaRocket, arguably the most highly detailed and realistic sculpted bobbermotorcycle on the grid. It has won first place in almost every singlecompetition that it has been entered into during 2009, making it one ofthe most well-known motorbikes ever created in Second Life. Thetrophies won from these competitions are shown in the image to theleft, alongside the real-life version of the bike that it was modeledfrom.
As you can see from the image below, this motorbike is a true work of art, painstakingly sculpted and textured by its creators over a period of several months to create one of the finest rideable motorbikes that Second Life has to offer.
The following image details the names of the creators and the build dates for all of the prims on the Lakhota Rocket motorbike.
Here is an exact copy of the same bike, sold at the Saints of Hell Motorbike Club's sim by one of their members, Black Lisle, AKA Biack Lisle.
As you can see from the images, the creation dates on the version of the bike provided by Redtail Magic span a period of around four months, while Black/Biack's version was created much more recently, and in less than ten seconds. Currently, Black/Biack's version of the bike is being sold for 2900 Lindens (100 Lindens less than Redtail's version), on the Saints of Hell Motorbike Club's group land, the Saints of Hell sim, owned by the avatar Sims Rang. Redtail Magic's Lakhota Rocket can be found in the Tamayo sim.
What makes this particular case of theft interesting, however, is that it appears that every one of the officers within the Sants of Hell group that I came in contact with, as well as many of its members, were denying any allegation of theft and were vehemently defending Black/Biack Lisle's innocence in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
I first began my investigation into this story when I was contacted by a good friend of mine, Muziekfreak1980 Miles, who asked me to come and inspect the bikes in question and write this story on behalf of the original creators. So, I was teleported by Muziek to meet everyone involved in creating the original bike.
The first person I spoke to was Redtail Magic. Standing in front of the two bikes rezzed side by side, Redtail explained exactly how to tell the two bikes apart.
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Redtail Magic: Hi Coke. Thank you so much for doing this.
Coke Supply: You're welcome. This bike looks EXACTLY the same as the ones I was just looking at in the Saints of Hell store.
Redtail Magic: Yup yup.
Coke Supply: OK, start at the beginning please.
Redtail Magic: OK. I do sell most of the parts full perm for builders, but I DON'T sell the actual sculptmaps, so all parts on the bike should show as different creators. I can give you 4 examples of how to prove this is an illegal copy. One, all bikes and parts have a registration script to email me with the buyer and who was present at the time. Black Lisle – aka Biack Lisle – has never bought a full perm part from my store, nor bought a full bike sold at my store. Two, there are 3 prims on Biack's bike he should never be able to sell in his builds at all.
One is the headlight – it's incorporated into the handlebars. I kept that unique to the Rocket for sale. I don't sell those handlebars.
Redtail Magic: The next part is the arrow oil gallery. That, too, he should not be able to sell on legally in his builds. This keeps the Lakhota Rocket unique to other bikes being built here for sale.
Redtail Magic: The next prim is the most vital – the cables – as they will only ever fit my Rocket, so I could never sell them separately if I wanted to.
muziekfreak1980 Miles: Yes – on the copy, Biack made an error – the cable goes into the tank.
muziekfreak1980 Miles: In fact, the entire sculpt is off *points at sparkplugs on the copy*
Coke Supply: Yes, I saw that.
Redtail Magic: Third, this Rocket has also been entered into many bike shows in SL and it's won almost every one of those shows. So every bike builder out there knows this bike extremely well, and I have always been fully open about exactly who made the sculpts. So for Biack and the sim owner to say these are Biack's creations is just plain nuts. Fourth, you only have to examine the build dates to see that Biack's version was created in less than ten seconds.
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At this point, word had spread that a Herald reporter was investigating the theft, and a large group had gathered to give their evidence. I was being flooded with IM's, conversation transcripts, lists of names to investigate, and snapshots, many of which are displayed in this very article. Trying to piece everything together, I started to ask questions…
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Coke Supply: Who is this "Loon" guy??
Redtail Magic: Motor Loon? The biggest name in bike building and sculpts.
Coke Supply : And he got copied too? By the same group?
Redtail Magic: Yup yup.
Coke Supply : I will need to speak to him I guess.
Redtail Magic: I'm not sure if it was the same group, but I think so. Lincoln Braveheart got copied too. Black has Lincoln's chainguard on his bikes. Speak to Tater Skytower, too.
Coke Supply : Tater got ripped too?
Redtail Magic: Yup yup… his fenders. Zara Yip would be wonderful to talk to as well. She hates this lot.
Coke Supply : What's Zara's story?
Redtail Magic: She has a big sim and has a store of the big name builders here. She has some shout too. She's been copybotted but not sure who by.
Coke Supply : What does she build? Does she build bikes?
Redtail Magic : Yes, and sculpts, her own parts. Awesome and very unique designs.
Coke Supply : And she suspects this same group of stealing her work??
Redtail Magic : I'm not sure if the same group has copybotted Zara yet.
Coke Supply : Well, we can ask. Did Hiiigh Jinx get his stuff copied too?
Redtail Magic : Yes, he's filed reports too.
Redtail Magic : Group Notice From: LongHard Rhode – Spend your day with us for the New Product Lauch of the 2010 SLC Choppers by SoH MC Sargent at Arms and SLC
Designer Black Lisle.
Coke Supply : The Saints of Hell just sent that to their group? Are they talking about the stolen bike?
Redtail Magic : Yup. That's from their group.
Coke Supply : OK, I need the names of ALL the people associated with Black. I need to know who the main players are so that I can investigate them.
Redtail Magic : Black Lisle is also Biack Lisle. the L being an upper case I.
Coke Supply: Black Lisle's name is on the stolen items, right?
Redtail Magic : Yup yup. Both the Lisle names have been.
Coke Supply : So how does Sims Rang fit into all this?
Redtail Magic : She's president of the Saints of Hell Motorbike Club. As the sim owner, I contacted her to report if she knew one of her tenants was a copybotter. That's the first step in this sort of thing. Next step is contacting Black/Biack to confront them on copybotting. Next is an AR and DMCA.
Coke Supply : Well, just make sure you save all the chat.
Redtail Magic : I do, no probs. It's done automatically on my PC.
Coke Supply : Who is LadyLynn Zabaleta?
Redtail Magic : That's a new name to me. But judging by the way she interacted with Ezra, she's probably staff.
Coke Supply : LadyLynn ejected Ezra when he started talking about theft. She never indicated that it would be looked into.
Redtail Magic : No, they won't, they will say to the last that Black made the bike.
Coke Supply : So Sims Rang is the Saints of Hell's group owner and sim owner too, right?
Redtail Magic : Yup yup. Or so she said when I asked her.
Coke Supply : Ah, so this is all happening under her watch? Noted.
Redtail Magic : Very much so. Sims said she saw him make every sculpt, and that she even has the copyrights. She also said that she is a coyright lawyer.
Coke Supply : OK, so I've got 4 names here – LongHard Rhode, Black/BIack Lisle, Sims Rang, LadyLynn Zabaleta -Am I missing anyone?
Redtail Magic : I've got the full list of the top dogs of the Saints of Hell group if you like. Saints of Hell Officers have more powers than members. There's 19 of them. 6 owners. 4 founders.
Coke Supply : Give me all the owners.
Redtail Magic : OK, the owners are Sims Rang, Ambrosia Goode, SoHbank String, Shrug Dangle, LongHard Rhode and Needhed Soon. Sims Rang is partnered to Markkus MacMoragh.
Coke Supply : OK I got them. We need to talk to them.
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Redtail then gave me a transcript of the conversation he held when first confronting Black over the theft of his bike back on the 31st of December, the day he filed his first DMCA against the Black account (note that while this conversation was with the Biack account, the bikes rezzed at the Saints of Hell store were in the Black account's name and therefore the DMCA was filed against that account);
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Redtail Magic: Would you mind telling me where you got the parts for your bikes? I am about to file an AR against you unless you can prove to me you bought these parts. You have parts on your bikes I do not sell to anyone. They are exclusive to me.
(no response)
Redtail Magic: I've filed an abuse report against you dude.
BIack Lisle: I have what?
Redtail Magic: You have parts on your bikes I do NOT sell. They show you as creator. They should show Trinity as such. I do not have you in any of my sale records.
BIack Lisle: What parts are you referring to?
Redtail Magic: An engine arrow oil gallery, a set of handlebars with wires and cables – shall I go on?
BIack Lisle: Please, as I'll look and get you the info you ask for.
Redtail Magic: You better dude, because I have 3 parts that I am showing a few people here that I HAVE NEVER SOLD APART FROM ON MY COMPLETE BIKES!
BIack Lisle: Look Red, please list me the parts, when I can get back there I'll take care of it. I can't get there right now but I'll get it taken care of ASAP. I know the stuff I made from the stuff I have purchased, and if it's not kosher I have no issue removing it.
Redtail Magic: NO WAY! No excuses! Prove to me you made these parts!
BIack Lisle: I could ask the same at this point bro, I am trying to be cordial right now.
Redtail Magic: Not kosher? You gotta be kidding me. I'm going to bust your ass!
BIack Lisle: OK do what you feel you have to do, if you wanna make a scene that's your choice.
Redtail Magic: HA! Want me to show a Linden the ORIGINAL sculpt studio notes?
BIack Lisle: Like I said, I will take care of the issue when I can. Right now, I can't.
Redtail Magic: Like I said, you have parts on your bikes I will never sell! So, they are copybotted. Simple as!
BIack Lisle: And like I said, if you list them to me I will take care of your problem.
Redtail Magic: How can I listen when you have parts on your bikes that I do not sell to anyone, only if they buy the full bike? Which is NO MOD, and you make it blue! I am in an important meeting right now. I will deal with this after.
Inventory item offered
Redtail Magic: See the arrow on that engine? It's only being sold on the Lakhota Rocket, a bike sold without mod rights. See the handlebars? That is also only sold on the bike. See the wires and cables? Also NOT sold as a part but as part of the Rocket bike.
BIack Lisle: OK, I will have them sent back to me for now so they are off display and fix that for you. I'll also look back to where they came from and notecard or landmark the places they were found.
Redtail Magic: Thank you. Also proof of your buying from me, if you say you did buy legit. You can clear your name no probs, if you can show us all you bought what you thought were legit parts, OK?
BIack Lisle: Dunno what would constitute proof of buying, as Linden Lab don't keep records of transactions far back but I'll give you what I can. Apparently, your friends are griefing the sim as we speak. But that's another convo. I'll be free to get back there in an hour or so. I'll start when I get back with the info for you.
Redtail Magic: I don't like griefing at all. They are in the bikers guild, where we place the call on botters. Not my friends. I do not go for grief.
(29 minutes pass)
Redtail Magic: I would like to know which bike store you bought the parts from, and which parts you say you bought legit. You have a heck of a lot of my bike parts in your builds. Engine, seat, tyres, wheels, fenders… the lot, dude. I see you removed the bikes. No matter, I have photo proof. I am writing a DMCA out right now. I will give you till I log out for the night. If I hear nothing back, on my return I will be hitting the send button on my FAX machine.
Second Life: User not online – message will be stored and delivered later.
Redtail Magic: I see you have removed the bikes. I need an explanation why each of my parts on your bike shows you as creator on the Inspect tab of Edit? If you bought them it would show the store owner's name as creator, not yours. Also, the actual creator is my partner Trinity. Please explain to me how you are showing as creator of each parts, and not him, if you bought them legit?
Second Life: User not online – message will be stored and delivered later.
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After this conversation, Black/Biack apparently placed the bikes back out for sale and, to this date, has never provided Redtail with a list of locations or merchants from which he claims to have purchased the stolen parts.
I decided to corroborate the claims made by Redtail by interviewing some of the builders involved in creating the original bike. I spoke first with Trinity Hunghi, a builder that Redtail claims works exclusively for him.
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Coke Supply: Hello Trinity. I'm doing a story regarding the theft of Redtail's motorbike for the Herald, and was wondering if you would like to make a statement?
Trinity Hunghi: I make sculpts for Redtail. In that bike alone, I have spent about 3 to 4 months sculpting all the parts. I estimate that there is probably about 500 hours of sculpting in that particular bike.
Coke Supply: Yes, the creation dates show that spread of time. You work exclusively for Redtail, right??
Trinity Hunghi: Correct. I don't make parts for anyone but Redtail.
Coke Supply: So there's no way the distinctive arrowhead, unique handlebars etc would have found their way onto another build?
Trinity Hunghi: Redtail is the only one that received those parts from me. They are exclusive to that particular bike. I am too busy to sculpt for others. I did most of the sculpties on that bike except for the gas tank, sissy bar, gas line, kick stand, key set and tyres. Redtail did the texturing, as well as the scripting and final assembly of the bike.
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Redtail was also kind enough to provide me with the transcript of a conversation held between himself and Sims Rang, in which he had approached her regarding the theft of the Lakhosa Rocket motorbike. It reads as follows:
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Redtail Magic: Hi there. Do you own the Saints of Hell sim?
Sims Rang: Yeah I do.
Redtail Magic: Biack Lisle is in possession of copybotted bike parts belonging and made by myself and my partner. I have no record of him buying one part from my store let alone the huge amount he has in his builds – including 3 parts I have never put out for sale separately, and are only included with a no mod/no transfer bike I have for sale. These parts are illegal copies and I will be taking further action against BIack Lisle. An AR and DMCA have been filed and submitted.
Sims Rang: We hold real life copyrights for virtual property created in this game. So, do your DMCA's, do whatever you like. File a real life lawsuit but be prepared to lose. Good day.
Redtail Magic: He has made bikes using my unique bike parts, I have and never will sell them separately.
Inventory item offered
Inventory item offered
Inventory item offered
Sims Rang: Take us to court. I watched him make every piece on those bikes. There is no discussion. Take us to court. File your shit. That's all I've got to say.
Redtail Magic: I do sell some of these parts full perm, but there are 3 parts on his bikes I will never sell full perm or any other way but in the no-mod bike I have for sale.
Sims Rang: Honey… we don't use other people's parts. Biack's name isn't Motor Loon.
Redtail Magic: See the arrow on that oil gallery? It's mine. Loon never botted my stuff.
Sims Rang: No… only high end builders like HD and Black.
Redtail Magic: I do not sell that arrow except for on a bike for sale no mod no trans.
Sims Rang: Look… don't come accusing. File your reports. If it is false, we will counter sue with slander.
Redtail Magic: Those are my parts exclusively!
Sims Rang: Again… File the reports. Take us to court. That's all I will say.
Redtail Magic: OK, no probs… that bike has won many many shows and every bike builder in Second Life knows who made the parts and will back me up in court. It's not a problem.
Sims Rang: Again… shall I restate my position?
Redtail Magic: Be my guest. Want me to restate mine?
Sims Rang: Say anything you don't mind me bringing up in court.
Redtail Magic?: Sure thing. This IM is being recorded on my PC
Sims Rang: As is mine… and I'm a copyright lawyer *winks* I will not discuss this with you. Again, take it to court. I've got better things to do.
Redtail Magic?: Oh I do apologise. Copybotting is very important, hey?
Sims Rang?: If we did copybot, sure. But we don't. So have a good one. Next word is a harassment report.
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It is interesting to note that Sims did not welcome the idea of an investigation of Redtail's claims, preferring to ban investigators and threaten them with the filing of a harassment claim, as opposed to allowing them to investigate the allegation of theft. I found this incriminating. Indeed, after quizzing Sims Rang, I quickly discovered that her story had somewhat changed from her previous conversation with Redtail.
Sims also claimed to have witnessed Black/Biack's bikes being created, yet the build dates on the prims of his copied Lakhota Rocket were spread out over a period of less than ten seconds. I was keen to ask Sims about this. If she was claiming that she saw the creation of the bike, might I get her to admit that she saw it being uploaded all at once?
The answer was yes.
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A CHAT WITH SIMS RANG
Using an alt account, I obtained the following information…
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Bomb Tremor: Hello Sims. Would you be so kind as to answer a few questions regarding the controversy surrounding Biack's bikes being sold in your sim?
Sims Rang: No I would not. sorry. We are done with it.
Bomb Tremor: Do you know who has accused him of theft?
Sims Rang: Redtail Magic and Hiiigh Jinx. If you are associated with them, I will end now. We have been instructed by Lindens to file all as harassment.
Bomb Tremor: So he bought the stolen parts from them?
Sims Rang: What is your interest in this?
Bomb Tremor: I am writing up a story for the Alphaville Herald regarding the bikes in question.
Sims Rang: I will tell you this… Black is not a thief.
Bomb Tremor: I was hoping you could let me know who is accusing him of being a thief. Did they set him up?
Sims Rang: No. I wouldn't say that either. I think they are making false accusations. The items can be purchased all over Second Life.
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I was intrigued. Sims first stated to Redtail that the Saints of Hell bikes do not use other people's parts, but she was now claiming that the bikes contained parts found all over Second Life.
I pressed further…
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Bomb Tremor: So, has Black filed a complaint against Redtail and Hiiigh?
Sims Rang: Why? It's a waste of our time, and thieves in this game are inevitable. We are filing harassment AR's. Our parts are registered. We have nothing to hide. And to be honest, don't have the time to worry about it. Black has been copybotted so many times it's retarded.
Bomb Tremor: Registered? Like in real life in some official capacity?
Sims Rang: Yes.
Bomb Tremor: Ah I see. So I guess you will file a DMCA if Hiiigh or Redtail have copied the bikes in question?
Sims Rang: No. Filing a DMCA requires wanting to take to a real life court, and to be honest, we aren't that vested in it. We will go if sued, but we will not file. We have far more important things to do.
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I found this quite stunning. Sims was claiming that the bikes were created from parts found all over Second Life, yet she owned the copyright to the bikes. And was unwilling to use that copyright to file a DMCA if it was stolen.
Why go through the trouble of filing copyright in real life if there was no intention of using it to protect the bikes in the first place? Why file at all if it was already known that the parts for the bike were purchased “all over Second Life”? Why keep all of the bikes on sale when the original copyright owners then step forward to object to the use of their parts?
I am no lawyer, yet it was very clear to me that Sim's claim of being a copyright lawyer did not hold water. I was desperate to interrogate her further, but decided to act innocent instead and let Sims continue to speak in the hope that other discrepancies in her story would become apparent. She did not disappoint me.
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Bomb Tremor: Well I think you should know, they are claiming that the entire bike is copied.
Sims Rang: No-one talks about the good stuff that Black does. Just their jealousy and BS about copybotting, which has not happened. They can claim what they want. Like I told them, take us to court. All 106 members of this organization will stand behind him completely.
Bomb Tremor: And there's definitely no chance of Black being guilty?
Sims Rang: Is there no chance? No-one can answer anything 100%… it's all relative, and virtual content makes it even hazier, but I know Black, I have known him for over 2 years, and not just Second Life… I believe in him, and I have seen him spend countless hours working on these bikes, on MY private sim.
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Wait a second. Sims claimed to have witnessed Black create the bikes with her own eyes, yet could not say with 100 percent certainty that he built them?
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Bomb Tremor: Oh I see. Well, there's just one thing – the build dates on all the prims on the bikes are spread out over a period of about 5 seconds – you must agree that this adds some weight to their accusations? I'm not saying for a moment it's true, but it looks bad.
Sims Rang: Do you know how to upload maps?
Bomb Tremor: Well I've uploaded textures before.
Sims Rang: He showed me today. I did it in less than a minute, and I am by no means a builder. I am a planner. But I can see, in the old days, how it would look as such. But the new viewers make things a little different.
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Again, I was stunned by what I was hearing. Sims was claiming to have uploaded the bike herself, as instructed by Black/Biack, stating that it took less than one minute. I wondered how she could achieve such a feat without the aid of XML files created by a copybot or other illicit client – which kind of lifts some of the ambiguity away from her comments about “the new viewers”.
I suspected at this point that the thief was sharing his XML files with other accounts within the Saints of Hell group. This would make a lot of sense if a group of thieves were involved, or if there was only one thief sharing the content with multiple accounts. I suspected that these accounts would be the ones sharing the ownership of the group, with Sims Rang at their helm.
I decided to press for more information regarding the uploading of the bikes.
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Bomb Tremor: So the whole bike was uploaded all at once?
Sims Rang: In parts, but yeah. Look, I am not going to pretend to understand how it works. I'm no builder, scripter or any of that… but I trust Black with my life, real life and Second Life, so… I believe what he showed me, and what he told me. And to be honest, if he was guilty, Linden Lab would have taken his account and the content. They released his account and the parts. So, what does that look like to you?
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This was a lie. A DMCA filing was found in favour of Redtail by Linden Lab around the 16th January, and the Black Lisle account disappeared from Second Life search three or four days after this investigation began. The Biack account, however, remained active. If Linden Lab acted in favour of Red's DMCA filing, then how could it have been made apparent to Sims, beforehand, that they resolved the DMCA in Black/Biack's favour?
The answer, of course, is that she was lying to me – the DMCA was yet to be resolved at this point in time.
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Bomb Tremor: Well this isn't the first time I've investigated for the Herald. There's several cases I know of where a copybotter has kept their account – but yes, you make a strong point. If he was selling something that wasn't his to sell then Linden Lab would most probably delete the account.
Sims Rang: And they would have blacklisted the parts. I have dealt with a copybotter before. We kicked him out.
Bomb Tremor: I've never had to file a DMCA on someone so I'm not sure what will happen, but – if a false DMCA claim is filed, what would Linden Lab do to the people that file it?
Sims Rang: We are trying to find that out right now. I have my admins combing through the Terms of Service to look into that. If you find out before me, please let me know.
Bomb Tremor: I'm sure you know much more than I do about DMCAs and ARs at this point – I've never had to deal with them like this, I'm only an observer thankfully.
Sims Rang: It's alot of stress, but we deal with it.
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This obviously contradicts the earlier statement by Sims that the Saints of Hell “were done with it” and had “better things to do” with their time. I also found it interesting that they were spending that time attempting to discover the fate of people that filed false DMCA claims.
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Bomb Tremor: So what do you think can be done in future to deter people from filing false claims?
Sims Rang: They should make the punishment to be the same as a copybotter. Take the account. An AR honestly ain't shit. Lindens don't do a thing about them mostly. DMCA's are a little more serious, and should be handled as such.
Bomb Tremor: OK, I will leave you to it but I want to follow this story up a bit more – is there anything you can tell me about the people that are accusing you guys of stealing? Have they done it before? Are they known for griefing?
Sims Rang: Absolutely they have. We have a history with Hiiigh Jinx. This Redtail person is new to me. But we have been dealing with Hiiigh for over a year. He sends people to grief. He accuses people, and he won't do his own work. He sends people. I have mountains of chat log, which I can't send you as it's a Terms of Service violation. But I track every word said on my account, and he is famous for it, since before we even bought any of these sims. We rented a homestead called SOH Turf. It started then. Look… I ain't gonna defame the guy. I don't know him, and until recently, he hasn't spoken words to me. But I have 100+ members and they report to me and they tell me what is going on. He is starting this shit. We have the proof. But it's not really worth the time or the loss of people on it.
Bomb Tremor: You're one of the very few people that's actually chosen to speak to me about any of this.
Sims Rang: Well, no-one wants to get involved, and they are too dumb to speak correctly.
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Sims' story was markedly different from the story she gave to Redtail, and new contradictions and inconsistencies were appearing almost constantly. I found the comments regarding Hiiigh Jinx to be the most desperate. “He is starting this shit”? I believe that Sims had no idea how much I knew about the story at this point, and thought that blaming everything on Hiiigh Jinx would provide a false lead and throw me off the case. It was a deceitful and desperate measure, and I was stunned by her audacity.
According to Motor Loon, he too was accused by the Saints of Hell group members of sending people to grief their sim. This is something that Motor and Hiiigh both deny. According to Motor, the Saints of Hell members admitted they were wrong and apologised to him for the accusation. From what I understand, Hiiigh Jinx was banned from the sim when he went there to investigate the theft himself, as were all of the people that worked on the original bike. From what I have seen of the chat logs sent to me, no griefing was involved at all.
I continued to press the matter of copyright in relation to the stolen version of the bike…
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Bomb Tremor: Does it cost a lot to copyright something? I always thought that items were copyright as soon as you make something in Second Life and that you never needed to do it in real life because Linden Lab would always treat you like you had copyright on what you made. Does real life copyrighting make any difference here in Second Life?
Sims Rang: It costs a little. Not too much. It can make a difference, to a point, depending on how far they want to take it.
Bomb Tremor: So I guess you have the bikes copyrighted at this point?
Sims Rang: The patents are registered. We are working on the copyrights.
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Interesting. Up to this point, Sims had always claimed that she owned copyright on the bikes. It suddenly made sense why Sims wanted to avoid going to court in real life to defend her copyright – either she didn't have copyright, or she knew that she had no claim on the bikes to start with.
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Bomb Tremor: Be right back, just rolling a cigarette.
Sims Rang: OK. Actually Bomb, I need to go to sleep. We can talk again later. Don't make me look like a bitch in print.
Bomb Tremor: Oh, don't worry, I might not be the best reporter in the Herald, but I want to be the most impartial. I will carry on with my investigations and see what I can find out about Redtail and the other guy.
Sims Rang: Spend some time sitting at our landing point. You will see all the crap come down. You will see all of them come all day and harass members and to file reports, so they say.
Bomb Tremor: OK, I will have a sit down there and be an observer for a while.
Sims Rang: Just let anyone know you are a guest of mine, otherwise they will interrogate the shit out of you.
Bomb Tremor: OK, I will paste the last few lines of chat to them as evidence if that's ok with you?
Sims Rang: Sure. I will let my enforcer team know.
Bomb Tremor: Maybe they can tell me more info if they have it.
Sims Rang: They won't talk to you about this stuff. They are under orders. But they will make sure nobody messes with you.
Bomb Tremor: Well, I try to be as low key as possible at the best of times so I'm sure I won't be a nuisance.
Sims Rang: OK. Take care, and we will talk again soon. Black and Brutus will have no problem talking to you as well.
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The conversation regarding copyright was very revealing. I wondered what the legal implications were of filing a copyright claim on items purchased from "all over Second Life", especially on the not-for-sale items. Sims had also claimed that the bikes were already copyrighted, whereas she was now saying that this had not been done yet.
[...TO BE CONTINUED...]
[NOTE:
This article took around two weeks to write and is the accumulation of interviews and investigations by myself and many other people, resulting in one of the longest Herald articles ever written. There was an awful lot of information in this article, so I took the liberty of formatting the text transcripts to make it easier for everyone to read. These edits were made solely for reasons of clarity. Changes include spelling and grammar corrections, as well as re-organising the sentences to compensate for chat lag and sequential chat postings, as well as the removal of irrelevant or private information. The accounts used to commit the thefts in this story had similar names (Black and Biack) and therefore it is quite possible that any one of the people whose testimony is provided had used one name in place of the other by mistake. I know I did. At times I have used “Black/Biack” to refer to the operator of these accounts, while at other times I used the same convention when I was uncertain of which account name should be used. Also, the chronology of some of the interviews is wrong, due to my attempt to fit everything into the article's narrative flow. Also, due to the thief having two accounts of similar names, and due to his swapping of the names on the bikes that he stole, a great deal of confusion arose between myself and the original creators of the bikes as to which account stole which bike and when, requiring intense effort on everyone's part to clarify the details and to investigate what happened in order to keep this article factual. Many revisions were made, and within all the confusion I am certain that some minor errors may have still slipped through. I offer my apologies if this is indeed the case, but I did the very best I could under the circumstances to provide you all with the most accurate account possible of my investigations into one of the most disturbing cases of content theft I have ever encountered in my 3 years of being a Second Life resident. I hope you all find it an engrossing read.
- Coke Supply]
Saints suck
Feb 9th, 2010
“NICE TO SEE HOW NOT EVEN ONE OF YOU SAINTS ARE PROTESTING HIS INNOCENCE NOW LIKE YOU WERE DOING RIGHT UP TO THE VERY FUCKING DAY THIS ARTICLE WAS SENT TO THE HERALD. TRY TELLING SIMS TO HELP THE VICTIMS AND NOT THE FUCKING PERPETRATORS NEXT TIME BRUTUS. MAYBE THEN YOU WILL SEE AN ATTITUDE FROM ME THAT YOU APPROVE OF.”
woooo classic just like my RL harley
go coke
lol
Senban Babii
Feb 9th, 2010
@Coke Supply
Thanks for the clarification of some of the relationships. I’m sure you’ll agree that you’re a….passionate writer and you sometimes let your emotions get the better of you. There’s no question you’ve done a thorough job of presenting the facts as far as you could and as I said, you present some pretty compelling evidence. I think the problem may be that you let your emotions get the better of you and it comes across as bias in places.
There’s nothing wrong with investigating a story brought to you by friends or even of becoming friends with people during the course of researching that story. I’ve done it myself. But those friends would be the first to tell you that the first thing I do is step back into “third party mode” and start investigating them as much as the other party in the story. I think in this case, it comes across as being a personal issue for you too much which may be down to writing style, it may be down to your emotional volume (Mr Rantypants 8P) or it may be down to actual biased reporting/personal involvement. If anything, I think it’s more a combination of the first two but that isn’t always clear, especially when you talk about “we” attempting to file DMCAs etc. Can you see where I’m coming from? I can certainly appreciate your strength of feeling but – and remember, this is just my opinion and means sod all in the overall scheme of things – it seems to blur your lines between personal involvement and necessary impartiality at times.
I think it’s also worth pointing out that the bias comes across more in your comments than in your original article.
Thanks for taking the time to clarify a few points
Slade
Feb 9th, 2010
“Redtail Magic: The next part is the arrow oil gallery. That, too, he should not be able to sell on legally in his builds. This keeps the Lakhota Rocket unique to other bikes being built here for sale.”
So like I said, apparently it is available on FREEbie bikes! I checked those gift bobbers, some parts of them were made by Muziek1980, too. They have been in my inventory for about 18 months now. Very unique.
Wow, you almost had me believing your “well-investigated story”.
Now someone please give Coke her meds! I usually like reading the Herald, but all this cussing and ghettobitching has nothing to do with journalism.
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
@ Senban Babii
This time I do agree 100% with everything you said!!
Yes, I feel very passionate about content theft in Second Life and how our virtual world is slowly being destroyed by the freeloading parasites. I cannot help but feel strong emotions about that, as I am an artist and designer in real life as well as in Second Life. I am all too aware that my emotions are apparent in the comments thread here for this article, and that is deliberate as I never hold back when posting in the comments sections. Truthfully, I was not going to say anything at all in the comments thread for this article, but after seeing the Saints of Hell members coming here and trying to cast a negative light on the integrity of myself, the Herald and the original creators, I decided to “let them have it” !!
Every point you raised was valid and I thank you for this pleasant discourse. I am glad that your comments are civil, accurate, insightful and worthy of consideration, and I am pleased that everyone can see our exchange. Everything you said sums up all my worries about posting such a large and detailed article that I was deeply involved in.
In the two weeks that I compiled the article that I have written, I did my best to ensure that it was free of emotionally charged content and I can assure everyone that any such comments that remain were intentionally left in there. Now, I know that this is not exactly proper behaviour expected of a journalist or reporter but my response to that is simply that I am not a journalist or reporter by trade and wilfully accept that my articles will never be as professional as they should be. I simply write articles for the Herald for two reasons – 1) I enjoy writing, and 2) I get paid Linden dollars for each article written, which is used to buy clothes etc for my avatar in Second Life. However, I was not paid for this article and did not discuss it with Pixeleen; I already feel spiritually rewarded for helping the content creators in the biker community and to be honest, I feel inside that this is payment enough for me already, in light of what has happened.
Also, you are correct when you say that this story comes across as being a personal issue for me due to my writing style. The story itself was personal to me not because I knew the people involved, but because I am also an artist and fully understand the hard work we do to provide content of any kind. My writing style most certainly portrays emotion too. It always has. It something that I have always been aware of but at the same time I am told by many that they enjoy that writing style. Perhaps being a reporter/journalist is not my best vocation in this respect, but I do enjoy writing these articles for the Herald, and I do my best to be as impartial as possible. The sad thing is, with this particular story, it was hard to be as impartial as I would have liked because the story itself was so one-sided.
Myself, and the content creators involved in this story, suffered two weeks of abusive and threatening behaviour by the Saints of Hell management and many of its members. We had our names and reputations slandered, we were threatened with real life legal actions, and ultimately recieved little justice from Linden Lab until we finally started filing DMCA’s on an almost daily basis until Linden Lab responded and closed the accounts involved. Up until that point, we were being called liars and griefers, and without the accounts being closed via successful DMCA’s, it was difficult to prove otherwise.
So, during this time, I hope you can all find it understandable if emotions were high and if I have come across in the article as being stressed, upset, biased or whatever – I spent many long nights writing this article up, during which time I was very angry at how a group of thieves were essentially making a mockery of the DMCA process and of creator’s rights within Second Life. I really am truly sorry if people out there believe that I was too one-sided or emotionally involved in this case. All I can really say is that under the circumstances I did my very best in dealing with what was a highly charged and stressful situation, and I am truly sorry if the article was not as impartial as people would have liked – believe me, I am the first to agree with you.
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
@Slade,
You are the first person to allegedly find the not-for-sale parts available as freebies. So, might I enquire…
1) What is your theory on why at least 6 content creators would claim that they worked their asses off creating those parts exclusively for the Lakhota Rocket if they have been doing the rounds as freebies for the last 18 months?
2) Why, if they above is true, would they all wish to destroy their own reputations as legitimate bike builders by framing Black/Biack with an ingenious plan of plying him with 18 month old freebies?
3) Why could Sims or Black/Biack not provide me with the location of ONE fucking part on his bike that you claim to own as an 18 month old freebie? And how did Black/Biack end up with his own name on each and every part of his bike with those freebies, with the creation dates listed as 11th January 2010?
4) Why don’t you send me this bike you claim to have gotten hold of 18 months ago, or tell us where you got it from, thereby proving us all as a bunch of liars?
5) Why do you not post this information under your avatar name so that anyone here can come and meet you to verify your claims?
I await your response with interest, “Slade”.
Oh, and don’t forget to take your meds first.
Gundel Gaukelei
Feb 9th, 2010
So those wannabe die hard bikers do file DMCAs on each other and start whining on the internet and play big drama. Where did all the real men go?
saints suck
Feb 9th, 2010
comw on brutus im enjoying this how you gonna defend your shitty copybot group now??????
hahahaha we area all waiting for your responce!!!!!
Slade
Feb 9th, 2010
The answers to your first 3 questions fall into your part of “investigation”, because you are the one claiming all that.
To 4: I got it from an australian dude named GarrysRocknRoll Blitz.
To 5: My avatar name IS Slade (or do you need my full name to stalk me too now?)
I will take pictures and pass them around in SL, full perm, so you can see what I am talking about. If you are not banned inworld with your Coke Supply av you will get it there.
Muziekfreak1980 miles
Feb 9th, 2010
@ BRUTUS (MIND YOU FOLKS HE IS ONE OF THE GANGMEMBERS THERE!)
Your a fucking lyer mate !
YOu came at MY doorstep to talk to ME and COKE, as we brought to you to red store. YOu even inspected the orginal bobber after and i quote “MMmm i will take this up with them” YOu even promised ME to take down the sales and ALL of you AT SOH claimed to have SEEN black/Biack BUILD that bike.
The funny part is while this all occured a man names NOVEMBER strong armed me at my own garage! Telling me if we proceeded we are in trouble and our numbers a huge and blabla.
Your all covering your asses. Then tell me Einstein..coke never muted you you all filed “defaming of groups” to get HER OF YOUR BACK.
She has been trying to talk to you all including you. All you can do Brutus is HIDE behind your keys, like SIMS claimed she had full copyright over the bikeparts. While lateron she claims that biack/black bought them !! WELL THATS WEIRD!!!
Im glad it got out, LL has no juristiction here at all. So i can say whatever i want! IM GLAD YOU GOT THE SHAFT even now you lie true your goddamn teeth. You got your own MC involved in all of this while Coke and me even discussed NOT to do so. Not to mention the denial in your camp
IM GLAD WE DID!
Coke Supply
Feb 9th, 2010
@ Slade
So I’m a stalker now?!!
1) You didn’t answer the questions because you fucking can’t.
2) GarrysRocknRoll Blitz doesn’t exist anymore, and my guess is it’s because he copybotted the bike you’re talking about (which incidentally is nothing to do with this Herald story because none of the parts on the bikes in this article had parts made by Muziek anyway, so I don’t even know why you brought it up in the first place).
3) Send the pictures to me if you want, but hey, let’s meet at a sandbox and you can rez the fucking bike right in front of me so I can examine the prims and their creator’s names and dates so I will know if you’re a liar or not! I promise I won’t stalk you afterwards – even if you ARE a liar!
Muziekfreak1980 miles
Feb 9th, 2010
Quote
So like I said, apparently it is available on FREEbie bikes! I checked those gift bobbers, some parts of them were made by Muziek1980, too. They have been in my inventory for about 18 months now. Very unique.
Unquote
I never sculpted bike parts in my life you idiot …
SO please enlighten me with that part you claim i made as a freebee.
The parts are never sold
Even IFF THERE WERE SOLD redtail NEVER SELLS sculptmaps on other names.
So SLADE…go back to the SOH cave you came from your a EPIC FAIL ..and nextime post you full name when u use mine in vain coward.
sims rang the owner of slc custom choppers and saints of hell motorbike club
Feb 9th, 2010
where are you brutus, we are losing!!!!!!!
Harleyfan
Feb 9th, 2010
Now you got me running around SL clicking on every motorcycle I see. I notice some also have all parts created the same time. Would they be copybotters? I saw a DSC bike with all parts, including parts of a different creator, made the same second, and even some Motor Loon bikes that had a bunch of parts made the same minute. Can somebody please explain how to tell what is copybotted?
icallbullshit
Feb 9th, 2010
G-sus Fuk’n Khrist, what happened to this site? It’s like, Pixeleen comes out of the closet and then the last smidgen of decorum runs down the toilet like a piece-o-shit – in one flush. Can this storyline get any more f’d up folks? Bad enough there’s allegations of copybot action, but the fighting in the comments section by the original author is beyond laughable – and totally pathetic. Go handle this shit inworld or offline like adults for crying out loud!
Slade
Feb 9th, 2010
I can still find Garry’s profile on SL, but in case you don’t know Coke, he calls himself Hiigh Jinx nowadays, so the person who gave away those bikes still exists.
@ Muziek1980: I did not say it was a sculpted part, and I am not part of the SOH that you apparently hate so much that you jump on every one who does not agree with you to accuse them of being a SOH alt or whatever.
I assumed you wanted your article to be discussed here so why are you people so aggressive and attack people who are just asking for answers?
Tusk
Feb 9th, 2010
@ Inniatzo (comment is on the previous page)
I do believe the entire post that you were quoting was a parody of the situation and was not meant to be taken seriously
Tusk
Feb 9th, 2010
You can tell if its copied if it looks identical to another bike but has different creator names, you cant always tell by date because of the shift-copy thing but the names on the parts are a dead give-away.
People that make the sculpties in SL often dont sell the sculpt maps separately so they sell a prim with the sculpt map applied and therefore the prim will have the name of the creator of the sculpt map on it and if that is not the case then the sculpt map was stolen somehow or the prim that the sculpt map was applied to was stolen. So you cant always tell just by looking at the bike and seeing that the creation dates are all the same.
The bikes that are in this story here used parts that were legaly bought from the original creators in the way described above. The ones sold in the motorbike shop in the saints of hell region had the wrong creator name on the parts, plus they used parts that were only sold in a full motorbike build and could not have been taken out of such builds to be used elsewhere and would not have had the perms for that purpose anyway. The bikes in the saints of hell region also had parts that were never released for sale I think.
The problem is that with new viewers that can change the creator names and also change permissions of items without changing the original names, it means that it is very hard these days to tell for sure, and each case of stealing is going to be unique. The best way to tell these days is to first compare the names and dates on 2 different things that look the same, and then actually ask the people whose names are on both bikes how the bikes came into being. If one of them made the bike by illegal means then they will probably lie and if you investigate further you will probably find out the truth.
Ric Mollor
Feb 9th, 2010
———-Somebody said————
Ironically, the author choses to ignore the fact that Redtail’s Lakhota Rocket is a virtual replica of a Harley Davidson Bobber bike. His virtual designs are based on a RL bike who’s images are accessible to anyone on the internet. Anyone creating a Bobber style bike would hold true to the bike’s classic features and design the bike according to the original design. He is trying to take credit for a creation that is not truly his own work of art, but a meer replica of a bike that was created by Harley Davidson. In a sense, he himself is banking off of the creation of someone else since the original design concept is not his work. If Harley Davidson still possess a patent for the mechanical designs of the Bobber bike, then I don’t understand how Redtail or Trinity were able to obtain copyrights for those designs. This is a question that would be better answered by an Intellectual Property attorney
———–End of quoting————
I believe that this is the most important point here and it’s significance far outweighs any claims of copybotting. Harley Davidison certainly has a position on unlicensed copies of their designs being sold for profit. Additionally, it would not be unreasonable for them to object to *any* HD branded bike to be sold or used in Second Life since SL physics could arguably produce a driving simulation that would tarnish the brand.
Honestly, why would anyone waste time making *any* sort of vehicle in SL? If the goal is peer approval and perhaps a bit of fame the effort would be better spent modding an existing game and producing something that not only looked good but was actually usable.
Muziekfreak1980 miles
Feb 9th, 2010
Ok before i kick off this long comment.
I have nothing to gain by posting here, or loose for that matter.
Im the owner/founder of Twisted Creations since 2007 (my income in sl) and LUMICO Bikes 2009 just started (that i do as a hobby i prefab bikes) Because i like bikes and i value the work the great sculpters put into it. And i like to put that art to good use and yes i make a pretty good buck out of it by selling them.
It also makes me want to learn some what more on sculpting because the shapes are not that difficult.
And im a firm primbuilder since years, because sculpt were never that good as the are today the day.
Anyways that said, i has to be clear i dont gain nothing…
1st off for the the ppl that find this article complete bogus, and utterly noneses.
Please do pass it, dont comment here, and please never ever buy another newspaper in your life. For sure as hell zap whenever CNN,or some other news comes on. Its not worth your time, because yes the “Well boring this has been talked over so many times useless article” well ppl get killed all day long, ppl get hurt all day long, and thiefs steal all day long. Whats the point!!
Ppl like YOU make sure the can keep on doing what there doing, the careless behaviour you guys/girls show in here.
2nd Coke did not know the ppl that this article is about. Not in ANYWAY even, she did NOT GET PAID A DIME for her efforts. The article i can confirm aswell as the rest of the BIG COMPANIES mentioned in the article of the stolen parts that this article is 100% SPOT ON. And no its no hate campaign against SOH. The made sure that we had no choice then to involve the entire gang because we allready figured out PRETTY FAST that there all covering there asses.
3th For BRUTUS, and MISS RANG. you both are either the same or just a bunch of cowards. When we confronted you with the theft you SWORN to us that you had the copyrights over the parts. You treathend us with a LAWSUIT not the otherway around here Quote “Im a COPYRIGHT LAWYER i will take you all to court”. Until we discoverd that your MYSPACE account showed us (i will not post it here) that your nothing more then a LAWSTUDENT. Thats a lie we busted you on, even tho you believed even then that you were in full control.
4th Brutus tp’s to my private domain, as i ejected him and asked him what he was doing at my place. He wanted/demanded to see the bobber that was so called stolen (the log is in the article above) we took him there and he SEEMDED VERY NICE! After 2 days i get a IM of that same Brutus, telling me that i should warn a man called goodrich (not even someone i really know) quote “I came to him to talk, he used a HUD on me, needless to say he wont be building safe no more you tell him that” To witch i anwsered “That is not my consern what he does” after a short im session it ended up “I will tae the sales down” To witch i said “that would be great, then you proof to many to be a man of your word”
That never happend. < —–false promises
5th November shelman or some monkey close to that name that is a proud member of the SOH. Stood in my shop after week or so. Spilling his guts and opposing treahts towards ME about the face black/biack his “brother” got canned (the always denied btw that he got cleaned out by LL) He would make sure i would regred it and that there huge in numbers even whe he got banned he would get my pantsy ass were his words. To witch i spilled almost the coffee over my keyboard the lack of braincells are just to godamn funny
)
Not only accusing the wrong person, making treaths and cussing to a guy that not even enterd his domain. I did not eject him, i had to much fun, like in the zoo when you tap the glass to get the monkey attention. He became so foul even that i reported him 3 times on the spot and i turned around and walked off out of chatrange. It became boring.
Now get this straight, ive been there since day 1. YES coke is a reporter, YES there tons of cases of copybotters. Properly even ppl here that own copybotted shit that the know off, or not know off. The goal of this article is to stick together and HELP a fellow content creator. Do not come here if you ever build 1 or 2 houses and make a income fo 2k a month. Come here comment when you own your own company that actually florishes by YOUR OWN creativity. Then tell yourself the same BS when it gets stolen
Oww but its a copy of rl aswell, well sorry its a DIGITAL representation of what the REAL DEAL is. YOu cannot drive these bikes in rl, you cannot polish them RL ectra. So that does not even come close to the real deal. Plus name branding is something that is more a issue in sl (the harley name use, coca cola, heineken ectra) those are trademark breaches. Im not saying that its all 100% justified, but dont come here in a article. Blaming the creators that MADE it possible to have such a nice work of his own art then go oww its just copied.
You a copy of a human too, still your different, you now gonna ask permission to adam and eve too excist. Dont be so ignorant…
Thats all i got to say, and for Coke, SHE FUCKING ROCKS! I thank her for opening up this case and put to light what happend. And iff ppl cannot stand you or your article so be it, just remember for those ppl, you were sitting on your phat asses doing nothing. She was doing the work, we all did to make sl just a 1% cleaner maybe from a bunch of thiefs.
Thats it…
Gaara Sandalwood
Feb 9th, 2010
Ah, so entertaining.
P. Charisma
Feb 9th, 2010
It may be a violation of the professional ethics for a real attorney to threaten someone by claiming to be an attorney, or to make vague legal statements as if they were actual legal statements or analysis.
If Sims actually is a RL attorney, she could potentially no longer be if the statements quoted up there were brought to her state’s bar association.
Inniatzo
Feb 10th, 2010
@Tusk:
Really? Oops. In my own defense it’s hard to tell sometimes. Although I could pay more attention before I post. Probably should, probably won’t.
At0m0 Beerbaum
Feb 10th, 2010
@ Coke Supply
Someone needs to liberate this man of his coke supply.
Sebastion Slade
Feb 10th, 2010
Ok, I know many of the builders involved, in fact at one time I rode with SOH.
One question, everyone refers to Biacks ride as an “exact copy” of the Lakhota…..
Am I blind or just the only one that sees a ton of differences?
I dont know a dam thing about botting, hell, I wouldnt know a copybot if it slapped me in the face, but if this is supposed to be an Exact Copy, then alot of people need glasses or that has to be the lamest bot in history to miss so many details. Frame, forks, Pedals, Seat, Handlebars, Cylinder heads, Plug wires, shall I go on. sizes are diff, textures and colors, shapes, I just aint feelin it ya’ll.
And fyi, before you go claiming I am biased, I did not leave SOH on good terms, I still chat with them off and on, but when I left it was open season as I had left to help found a diff MC. Ya’ll do great work, some are better at some areas than others, and that will always be, but comon gang, if we start suing everyone that builds anything that looks the same as something else SL is gonna be veryyyyyy low on inventory real fast
Ride Safe ya’ll
~Seb
Danziel Lane
Feb 10th, 2010
@ Coke
It might be hard for you, but please keep out emotions from your articles and also from your comments.
You brought forward some great evidence on theft. Don’t destroy it by stepping down to a a level of shouting and bad language. BE a reporter, BE a journalist.
Let me tell it from my experience earning money as a taxi driver while studying at a German university. One night I had a group of 3 English soldiers in my car and after 3 minutes of driving I heard from the back seats: “It’s fucking half past fucking twelve”.
See, the language, the kowledge from which barracks I had got them, and the knowledge about what kind of …errrrmm… pub I had to carry them … well, they were my customers, but I had no respect for them, as especially their language did not improve.
If you really want to help your friends, stay the cool, investigative reporter, stay a true journalist and stop using bad language and stop shouting. Your article gave good evidence and made me thoughtful, after your comments I think more about what kind of person you are and forget about the information you provide.
If you continue using that “fucking” language and your caps lock, more and more people will not be interested in the information and evidence, but in your behaviour, which you should avoid as a reporter or journalist.
Many people will attack your for your writings, for your disclosures and they will use rude and bad language. They will do inworld and here in comments. You cannot keep them from doing that. However, if you step down on their level of language and personal attacks in your comments, you distract your readers from the skills that you showed as a reporter.
So, before reacting emotinally, please calm down, rethink your writing before clicking the post button. It help not only you but also helps for the reputation of the Herald, especially after Pix showed such a great example of civil courage.
Gundel Gaukelei
Feb 10th, 2010
Muziekfreak1980 miles wrote:
“Ppl like YOU make sure the can keep on doing what there doing, the careless behaviour you guys/girls show in here.
Do not come here if you ever build 1 or 2 houses and make a income fo 2k a month. Come here comment when you own your own company that actually florishes by YOUR OWN creativity. Then tell yourself the same BS when it gets stolen”
—-
The sole reason you SL venturers got any business model at all is because of exactly all the limitations and problems you use to cry us a river about on a daily base. Its a high risk business with low gain, thus making it the market niche it is. If SL would become the stable market you’re asking for, most of you would be out of business in no time because it would stop to be the playground of the Garage Inc’s. I’m sitting here, constantly monitoring SL for the moment its safe making any investments (and no “for any or no reason” isn’t the way I have to do business anymore). And so are loads of others, including the large enterprises.
You’re sawing off the branch you’re sitting on. But well, not knowing your own market may be the reason that forces you to accept those high risks in the first place.
Copybot and the non-existance of working digital right management is a matter of fact. It’s a property of your market. So you either adjust your business model to said fact or you’ve got a non working business model. Running a company means you’re allowed to keep the money, but also the tears. So pls stop crying and all this emotional attitude and start acting like the business owner you pretent to be.
Muziekfreak1980 miles
Feb 10th, 2010
@ Muziek1980: I did not say it was a sculpted part, and I am not part of the SOH that you apparently hate so much that you jump on every one who does not agree with you to accuse them of being a SOH alt or whatever.
I assumed you wanted your article to be discussed here so why are you people so aggressive and attack people who are just asking for answers?
YOu are even that stupid that i cannot even LAUGH bout it no more. You claim the bobber had freebee parts to begin with WHAT THIS CASE I ABOUT.
NEWSFLASH ITS TOTALLY SCULPTED…
So how on earth can claim you got FREEBEE parts of it to begin with. If mine parts are so said freebee made conserning this bike.
YOU= F A I L U R E!
Muziekfreak1980 miles
Feb 10th, 2010
@Gundel Gaukelei
YOur the typical BSER i kick of my door when you promote the cheaper power.
The business im in involved in is a totally different line that is more safer then prims to begin with.
You talk about a nish market (single market he tries to be cute here)
Im not into that i do almost anything that has to to with marketing myself, and productwise i vary over 50 different products. You try to sound very intressting like my doorsaleman in fact it complete laughable bs your promoting right here. Its not a matter about cash you fool, its purely a matter FOR ME and many that here create of honor. If i rip your place apart you would do anything you can to atleast.
It is not a high risk business to venture in sl if ppl would actually open there fucking eyes (unlike you) and simple contact the orginal creator. I know ppl, i talked to that allready know a good 6 months ago before we even started this article that there were selling stolen stuff (EX SOH members) that contacted me.
Now why did the not comeout sooner.
And pleae STFU about business models, ive studied that bs i wasted 4 years if my life listing to a bunch of quacks like you in class. YOur the kind of type that sells E-books on how to get rich in 50 seconds.
Please do me a big favor, for argument sake, write a new e-book on how to stfu to ppl that been in business for 3 years without to many tears.
You claim i cry about it i dont, i claim that ppl simply do not care about one other. So do me a favor…STFU and take a breadstick you bore me with you nish market BS thank you.
Thanatos
Feb 10th, 2010
@I laughed
it looks like you totally missed the point of what Logan was saying. Which was once a skill is learned it evolves and some peoples skills evolve fast while other evolve slower. And after reading this article Logan no more misrepresented the partial quote no more than the author calming to be an “Investigative Reporter” who has no real facts or proof and is accusing an entire group for copybotting when there is no proof that an entire group took such actions, let alone one person. Because pictures of that bobber are available on the internet making it available to anyone to virtually recreate in their own image.
So I don’t see an issue here; and above all that who cares? Motorcycle clubs do shady things all the time in real life and no one cares what they do. Last time I seen anything about any motorcycle club doing anything on TV was documentaries about them on the TV series Gangland which is on the history channel.
So this article has no more a leg to stand on than you think Logan’s comment does.
@vince braver
I completely agree with you. This article lacks sufficient proof and as milner point out wheres the article for the other builders in that list that stole parts from someone else.
@Danger359
Who the f*** is DCMA? There is nothing in SL searches that bring anything up about DCMA. So why would they have any jurisdiction over whats happens in second-life when 1 second-life is a game and 2 the game created by Linden Research Inc aka Linden Labs. Here’s the right answer… They don’t.
@Edna and Saints Babe
That’s the point that I was trying to make with my first comment to ‘I laughed’. Once its online internet or in-world its free game to be used by others in their own way.
@Coke Supply
A ‘frothing conspiracy theorist’ as One of the Saints put it is a valid reason to call in you credibility. Because conspiracy theorist has no credibility.
@Senban Babii
You are right, there is no impartiality as there should be here. The so called reporter is actually taking sides and taking part in the DCMA (whatever the f*** that is) and AR. Yet again calling into question the credibility of the reporter.
@Coke Supply
Because your friend was involved you should not have been the one to report on this. Not only has it clouded the objectivity of the report there you clearly only care about one side of this, that has been made obvious by your comments and replies to the Saint of Hell members who you have allowed comments to be posted.
@Danziel Lane
Actually if coke supply wanted to truly help her friend she would have had someone not involved investigative the situation so there would be a better objectivity and impartialness.
I don’t know who the Saint of Hell are or who Black is but to me it looks like Coke Supply has a personal vendetta against them because either they wouldn’t let her in their club or because Black wouldn’t sex with her. So Ill support the Saint of Hell on this one there no merit to the article and there’s no credibility either since the so called investigative reporter is a conspiracy theorist.
Damn Rain
Feb 10th, 2010
I don’t see what the big deal is. The bike isn’t that great and that internet motorcycle gang thing is full of ugly dunderheads. It doesn’t surprise me that they stole it.
Thanatos
Feb 10th, 2010
@Coke Supply & Saints suck & sims rang the owner of slc custom choppers and saints of hell motorbike club
You wanna know why the Saint of Hell stop making comments on this article?
While I’ve not met any of them yet I can tell you why. Its for the same reason most of us keep coming back and reading this comments. Its because tabliod trash draws attention and seeing how The Alphaville Herald is alway fairly unbalanced that makes it nothing more than a trashy tabloid you can pick up at wal-mart while waiting to check out. The Saints of Hell apparently are better than the ‘Investigative Reporter’ by no longer diginifying her tabloid article with any further replies showing unity in a better mannor than nonsense arguaments that she attempts to dismatal with vulagur language because she knows they are right. But thats ok I’ll reply for them.
@Damn Rain
You have no room to talk about them being ugly. You aint even got a face, now thats ugly.
Muziekfreak1980 miles
Feb 10th, 2010
@ Thanatos
When you try to be a smartass first READ.
Coke did not know them AT ALL the ppl who has been written about.
Then you simply ignore the fact that the orginal creators that have SEEN THE EVIDENCE of THERE SCULPTS being copied thus never EVER been sold full perm or the MAPS. THAT ENOUGH PROOF YOU *BEEPS*
And then you involve RL pic blabla…please go back to the stupidity cave you came from. Comparing once again RL with a digital copy. Then you accuse coke of handing a friends hand while she has been objective trueout the entire investigation. I DID NOT, because as far as im conserned (being honost here) the may be excused from sl for covering the asses of a thief. I did not involve directly into all this by visiting them on behalf of the victims here.
Then your even that ignorant to put in its a free game thus no rules.
WRONG, i hope the put a FBI law on it like with movies sadly impossible to keep up with the scum.
If it just a free game and inet content DMCA is a regulation SIMPLE. If i steal your rl car i get burned so do you in sl. So that crappy argument you hold up is just laughable to least to say.
This is the last comment im gonna put here. It a true shame that there so many idiots in sl, im properly the biggest one in there but atleast im not a pussy by hiding behind my keys. And just pretend its just a ok thing to do, or its just a game.
I hope sl even dies off soon, the blogs are allready showing that numbers drop in sl. I hope it does because the stupidity these days roaming around im glad im a loner LOL!!
This here proofs yet again why (oww the ones reacting on this post) yah your the ones i talk about ! lolZZ
Danziel Lane
Feb 10th, 2010
Thanatos wrote:
@Danziel Lane
Actually if coke supply wanted to truly help her friend she would have had someone not involved investigative the situation so there would be a better objectivity and impartialness.
Looks like you are so true. Well, I liked the Herald much and even more, when only a few days ago Pixeleen demonstrated courage and stood upright.
The very next thing is an article that not comes as an article or a story, but as a convo of chatlogs.
The matter and the evidence brought forward would have deserved to being presented to the readers (customers of the Herald) as a masterpiece of journalism. What we DO see is a very long text with lots of chatlogs and a reporter that even uses two avas for their investigative work. So, yes, Thanatos, I do agree fully.
But even worse are the comments. Well, we do not expect much from “discussions” in the internet, but here we see people that claim to be reporters, journalists, business people, professionals and creative people using two words excessivly: “fucking” and “bullshit” and are enthusiastic about using their caps lock key.
As much as I would like to hear a statement from the Labs about the JLU story, I would now like to hear a statement from the Herald if this kind of “journalism” will continue expecially with the demonstrated behaviour of their staff (or people claiming to have investigated in this case) in the comment part, which means in the feedback discussion part with the Herals readers and customers.
zfadarkness yue
Feb 10th, 2010
Well copy bots are not right in my eyes, But look who allowed it into Sl in the first place Lindens. So with all the content stealing and copy boting going on I blame the company itself. They let this so-called tool lose into second life knowing that’s its potential in the hands of bad people. And yet nothing is done to fix the problem period. Hence the decline of users in secondlife. Its bad when the company that came up with the TOS don’t even enforce it. They let things run ramped in secondlife, with the occasional banning of an account, most of the time abuse reports are not even looked at, maybe 1 out of 6 is even looked at. Secondlife has a bad name now for allot of people. And many are leaving secondlife because of the way the company is letting it go to hell. copy bottling is only one of the issues that is making secondlife a real shit hole anymore.. Until linden labs steps up to the plate to resolve these problems and issues between users and gets some kind of handle on the problems, im afraid the decline of there user database will continue. I was a premium user at one time and a sim owner, this same issue came to my sim. But when linden labs failed in enforcing their TOS, I had enough. So I no longer spend my RL money into this Copy Bot fest. And LL is going to continue letting this happen until they have to close this company down. Because of no return on there investment. Its sad Secondlife usto be a great place to come hang out and learn things. But now it’s turned into a fucking Drama infested copybotter grifer haven. Keep up the good work LL! But that’s just my opinion on the way things are being handled in SL. im sure if LL wanted to stop this Copybotting they could. But as they say shit happens..
Gundel Gaukelei
Feb 11th, 2010
>>
Muziekfreak1980 miles:
“Its not a matter about cash you fool, its purely a matter FOR ME and many that here create of honor. If i rip your place apart you would do anything you can to atleast.”
>
Muziekfreak1980 miles:
“It is not a high risk business to venture in sl if ppl would”…
<<
If there would be no damn friction, the perpetuum mobile would be a great business opportunity. Thats just how fighting the reality feels.
Muziekfreak1980 miles:
“And pleae STFU about business models, ive studied that bs i wasted 4 years if my life listing to a bunch of quacks like you in class.”
Wonder how many years it will take you this time to realized you’re wasting your life on the wrong thing.
epiclol
Feb 12th, 2010
HAHAHHAHA That dude playing the reporter really cracks me up XD
I mean how not to believe in him, he sounds all very professional XD
And whats with pixeleen is she ever coming back ???
secondlife herald lol
Gordon Goodrich
Feb 12th, 2010
Personally i would like to thank Coke Supply for his or her hard work and seemingly intensive research into this ever growing issue. It is my firm belief however:that were it not for the Full perm parts availability, we would not have half the copy-bot issues we are experiencing currently in the bike building market. That being said, I feel its everyone’s business as consumers and creators in SL to stand up and step forward when they see or hear of this type of activity going on.
As customers you help to fuel the SL ecomomy and allow us to maintain a standard for pricing the hard work that the “creators” of SL release to the market. I have had many come to me and ask why do you charge x amount of money when i can get one here for this price, and my answer is simple, Because you are paying for Originality and quality.
This standard allows us as creators to grow and expand and bring better, cleaner products to the SL bike enthusiasts and i personally will and have fought tooth and nail to ensure that we creators remain unique and original and well protected within the SL marketplace and anyone that helps us maintain this security has my full support and i feel deserves recognition.
We must also take into consideration the serious damage these implications can cause to an innocent retailers business and reputation and make certain that you have all your facts via. investigation and proper research into the technical aspects and mechanics of creation in SL, it is apparent to me that Coke Supply has done his or her homework.
Muziekfreak1980 miles
Feb 25th, 2010
@Gundel Gaukelei
None or what so ever my rl income does not run on sl based cash you smartass.
Perhaps keep on going to those marketing classes, the more chance i have smashing the door in your face if your the guy trying to sell me cheap power at my doorstep.
End of this needless discussion…
Muziekfreak1980 miles
Feb 25th, 2010
@epiclol
Change you name to epic FAIL.
IT is a SHE, the goal of a article is that you read. Then you would have known this rofl!
Hailey
Mar 19th, 2010
Its not the first time Sims Rangs name has came up when it comes to stolen property. Maybe Alphaville Harald should ask Harleykillernl Back what happend to his sim when Sims Rang was involved?
TB
Dec 27th, 2011
Funny how this Muziefreak1980 Miles is running his flapper about Saints of Hell MC when in InWorldz he is one of the members other than Foxxie Darkmatters and Doc Falmers sim called Wrecked. hmmmmm makes you wonder who is telling the truth here.
muziekfreak1980 miles
Aug 14th, 2012
Ok, so you implicate to EX-SOH members, in a argument that was years ago. Reading, back on my own comments makes clear i was not adult enough to convo.
Good thing, things changes for me as well.
First of you name foxxie darkmatter, she is my friend basicly for YEARS. I have nothing against members of a GROUP, if you read the whole ordeal above. You could have known that, even when i was commenting with a low IQ.
Then you try to sneak in a “mmmm who i speaking truth here”
Simple, the SOH copybotter, got banned by Linden lab how is that for truth for yah. I do not even build, nor make bikes like most do on sl. I make parts, mesh and sculpted, and i make no dime with it.
So i moved on to scripting and selling my HUD.
I am not a MEMBER of any of the groups there in, feel free to check that by pretending to be there friend. Then back stab them here, way to go bro. The can confirm it, as Foxxxie always worked for Twisted Creations (me) for years matter in fact.
I know been a longtime, you commented, but i do hope you read it . And feel free to, try the conspiracy theory thing again.
Most amusing..i learned lots of my mediocre stuff above. And in the years that past, now it is your turn.