The Alphaville Herald

159 Responses to “Interview with Aurora Ivy: What happens when good kids fall in with bad sims!”

1. 

   Shadow Boy
   

   Dec 23rd, 2003
   

   (This is Lilith’ btw) You know I’m always here for you Aurora, and I’m eternally sorry for what I put you through that day. And for everyone else that thinks Aurora is Van….you suck. FREE-MONEY FOR NEWBIES will burn and we all know it! Again Aurora…I’m sorry.
2. 

   P.I.M.P.
   

   Dec 23rd, 2003
   

   it is so weak that you guys take this so seriously
3. 

   Shawn Man X
   

   Dec 23rd, 2003
   

   On the topic of being misunderstood, well it’s bound to happen, you can’t under stand everything a person says, and your bound to be offended by some of it, but that makes the conversation seem more human, ie if the perso nyou were conversing with always said what you expected them to it would feel rehearsed, thats where the excitement lies, you never know what they’ll say next, isn’t it fun?
   And yah pretty much anything can be taken as an insult or a compliment, or a “good” or “bad” Here’s an example, you fall into a hole. Good or bad, well bad is easy so it usually comes first, your hurt, and you can’t get out. The good feeling comes later. Well you’ve been in the hole for a while, or you’ve gotten out of it, now your happy, but why? It’s because you found the hole first, you can claim it as “discovered by you,” it’s your hole and now you know of a danger that no one else knows of, you not only feel special but you can justify those feeling of being special. you can go spread the word, “There’s a hole over there so be carful,” You can help people, or you can cause them hurt be neglecting to tell them of the hole. The hole has given you this power. Knowlegdge is power, and at the moment you are the only person with knowedge of the hole, you are all powerfull wit hthe hole. However if some1 tells you they found the hole first you feel miserable until you find the next thing. Enjoy.
4. 

   RB
   

   Dec 23rd, 2003
   

   I can’t believe there are such young kids in game. Where are thier lazy ass parents? Jeeze.
5. 

   Aurora Ivy
   

   Dec 23rd, 2003
   

   I’m not that young Geez!! also I have no idea about the Hole thing you just talked about…
6. 

   Jay
   

   Dec 23rd, 2003
   

   I think this is a great illustration that there are a lot of minors in TSO and other MMORPGs. In response to P.I.M.P’s earlier comment, this is taken so seriously because minors have as much freedom in TSO as adults do. For instance, read the previous article about the BDSM community. Minors have just as easy access to this community as they do to the skill houses (Anonymous explained how minors can enter a BDSM house by easily faking their age). Now, I can’t see any reason not to allow minors to play TSO, as the game itself is harmless (although in some previous posts, the idea was tossed about making an adult server for TSO). But the question this article raises, as well as a lot of the articles on this blog, is how does an online community balance freedom and the control of explicit content. The current imbalance in TSO is what has lead to problems like child prostitution.

   One thing that I would be interested in knowing more about is the size of the pool of minors that play TSO. In my opinion, Alphaville (and much of TSO for that matter) does not really offer much for them, outside of just chatting. For instance, I haven’t seen a lot of houses or categories that are ‘teen specific.’ This is not just a TSO problem though. RL has given rise to Youth Centers and youth groups to keep kids out of trouble and away from things like child prostitution. Maybe there is a place for these kind of institutions online as well.
7. 

   urizenus
   

   Dec 24th, 2003
   

   >Where are thier lazy ass parents?

   Their parents are probably in the next room, presumably misinformed by EA/Maxis, which insists that the content of this game is PG-13 and appears to be doing everything in its power to *prevent* the parents from knowing that it is just not an appropriate environment for children.

   As some of you know, the New York Times is writing a story on this and the photographer that came to my place to take my picture was *shocked* when I took him into the game for 30 seconds. He had just bought the game for his kid (age 12) and had NO IDEA what it was about. Guess she won’t be getting it for Christmas now.

   I’m not saying there shouldn’t be kids in the game. I’m saying that the parents should be *fully informed* as to what this place is about. EA/Maxis needs to stop misleading the parents. Then the decision can rest with them.
8. 

   Shawn Man X
   

   Dec 24th, 2003
   

   Well, if you admit to being under the age of 13 while playing the game EA can suspend your account indeffinatly.
9. 

   Devvin
   

   Dec 24th, 2003
   

   Uhm, first off Shawn Man X you have got to be kidding me with the 13 year olds can be banned – read the TOS again, and Aurora has every right to be on here as anyone else. as for RB stating the fact you dislike kids playing TSO ; Starting it with “where are there lazy ass parents, jeeze” doesn’t add much validity to your statments. It is there choice what they can play, and not someone who has never met Aurora, or some of the other younger players on TSO. I’ve met 13 year olds smarter than 30 year olds, and then on the flipside 30 year olds smarter than 13 year olds, so it’s truly a toss up. What there exposed to on TSO doesn’t truly concern you though, and therefore bringing down someone who is not a bad person, or sim in game, is just overall bullshit

   as for the “Child Prostituion” comment, no one can stop that, Van chose what he wanted, and that was what he got. People actually called his parents from what I’ve taken from my friends, and informed his parents about all this, and yet still she did nothing. some just don’t care, and some kids just need to get used to life – what good does protecting them do when they honestly are exposed to it wherever they go? I find online worlds better since they don’t have the threat of stuff like Cocaine and other “harmful” drugs, excessive alcohol, or true “Violence”.
   No one can truly create an adult server. You just have to be careful in who you let in , etc. lol, there is no way that you can prove your 30, but theres also no way Maxis can prove your a minor – You just gotta live with it.

   P.S. Just a hint guys … the age that you need to be to truly and legally play “Sims Online” is 13 and up
10. 

    Felicia'
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Shadow Boy (Bear-fucker) and Aurora Ivy are so pathetic!
11. 

    Me
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    She spells like a 13-year-old but there’s something fishy about all this to me. Can we have another article that doesn’t have anything to do with sex, Voleur, or the crap that goes on in Alpha? How about interviews with founder sims who have hats who haven’t been able to remove them for a year now and are havin a serious case of hat hair? Enough about Evangeline already.
12. 

    Shadow Boy
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Felicia’ shut the fuck up. You’re just a jealous pig because I’ll always know more than you. It’s not my fault that I’m intellectual and you’re not. BTW people nowhere in the ToS does it say you have to be 13 to play this. As long as you have parental permission (thus why it asks if you are under 13 and asks for a parent’s e-mail address if you are below 18) you can play.
13. 

    urizenus
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    >Well, if you admit to being under the age of 13
    >while playing the game EA can suspend your
    >account indeffinatly.

    operative phrases here are “admit to” and “while playing the game”. It appears that Maxis doesn’t care if you are under 13, so long as you don’t admit to it in game. Obviously this has nothing to do with concern about the children and everything to do with their CYA policy of limiting their legal exposure should something bad happen to the child.
14. 

    urizenus
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Me says:

    “Can we have another article that doesn’t have anything to do with sex, Voleur, or the crap that goes on in Alpha? How about interviews with founder sims who have hats who haven’t been able to remove them for a year now and are havin a serious case of hat hair?”

    Hat hair article sounds great. Write it up! I’m always looking for new reporters.
15. 

    Paul
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    DUDES. chill out. its just a game u treat it like its real life
    now take a deep breath and go outside or something
16. 

    MattyS
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    hey,

    Maybe maxis should clean up all the bad shit thats goin on instead. Because this game is rated for teenagers you know. And anyways urizenus I sent in a article to you about a week ago. And you said you would post it. Dont know what happened there…..

    MattyS
17. 

    urizenus
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Goes up after Christmas, Matty.
18. 

    Granny Celestie
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Listen here all you wipper snapers, I just read this article and I think it was a load of borginshoogen! When I was her age I could use correct grammar, and I didn’t have the mind of an 11 yearold bearface! Another thing, you all take this game like it was wired up your bohockan! Can’t you see it’s just a game?! I hate you all for that!

    Lots of Spanks
    Granny Celestie
19. 

    Esmerelda
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    That’s “whipper,” isn’t it? With an H? And you mean “snapper,” right? Two P’s? Okay. Glad to know your *grammar* has improved since the olden days, at least.

    Yep, just a game.
20. 

    Ms. Pribble
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    ROTFLMAO!
21. 

    kale
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    I think this is a fascinating issue: the content available on TSO and minors’ involvement. After the new year, I hope to have a follow-up on some of the legal issues that might be involved here.

    I think a couple interesting points have come up already. The “get a life, it’s just a game”-kinda remark is one distinct viewpoint that makes the rounds during such discussions. I think if it’s that clear-cut to you, then that’s great. There’s an assumption that many people work with that *some* children may devote a significant amount of their very real life to such environments, so I don’t think it’s enough to just say “it’s a game— get over it.” There’s always the obvious point that I am in complete agreement with: some 14 year olds might display the mentality of a well-educated and grounded 45 year old and vice versa. Yet, it seems there’s a need to draw some generalizations that we can realistically work with in society, and one is that children are expected to be generally less-experienced and perhaps prone to be conned/exploited/harmed and a lot of our laws reflect that ideology. I think that’s a good reason for me to reject the “get a life” argument.

    To the “where are the parents?” idea: this is certainly a valid concern. I think there is a general concensus that parents/guardians will and should ultimately play a large role in deciding what material is objectionable. However, it’s damn hard to fulfill that function if you don’t know what’s going down in any given on-line environment. When I entered the game to check it out, I was struck by how this particular game is nothing more than a huge chat room. Some people like that format. I prefer games where there is something to do; Everquest was a game I found fun and much, much less chat-oriented. Anyhow, whether you prefer a chat format or not, I think that sort of medium lends itself to frequent personal disclosure and that could conceivably make it more difficult for a parent to monitor their child’s involvement in this game.

    One point that the series of interviews has brought out is how much questionable content, and some seemingly out-right explicit content is available on TSO. It strikes me as odd that whole communities oriented around cyber-sex of one variety or another have arisen and that EA would have to profess ignorance (less plausible given that the sites that lend themselves to this arena often rank highly). Unless I misunderstand their Terms of Service, it claims that Content that is of a vulgar or explicit sexual nature will not be allowed. I’m not sure that’s a good policy, but if they want to keep their teen-friendly rating then it seems that some of this activity would have to be curbed. The relevant policy regarding content from the TOS reads: “Strong vulgar language, crude or explicit sexual references, discussions of illegal drugs, and hate speech are offensive and always inappropriate Content for EA.com. In other cases, there may be “gray areas”. Always use your best judgment. If you would not say something in a room full of people you have never met, or in the workplace, please don’t post it on our message boards or chat. EA.com makes the final determination about whether Content is objectionable or not. This determination is in our sole discretion, and is final.”

    Of course, the above contains that devilish clause about EA being able to use their sole and exclusive discretion. If that’s acceptable, then anything goes and I have witnessed many take this stance. We might call this the “it’s their freakin’ game; if you don’t like it then leave” position. So, given this attitude, maybe any corporation can have their cake and eat it too, but I think there is a strong case to be made that just anything does not go. When a person enters any community, I think they have an expectation that the rules that they’ve been given and understand will largely be abided by…it’s hard to get any cooperative project off the ground without such an assumption. If you think that it’s illegal and/or unfair for a corporation to simply veil itself in “it’s our game” mentality, then I think the discussion should continue (also, if that’s ultimately the mentality at work here, then we can dispense with all the long legal clauses about expectations and have a nice tidy TOS saying explicity and solely that “we’ll just use our judgment, and if you don’t like our ad hoc rules, leave”). Personally, it’s hard for me to read the interviews that have run, the termination of Uri’s account, and that Content section of the policy without thinking something has gone seriously funky somewhere here.

    Finally, as far as I can tell from the privacy policy, children who are 12 or under must have written parental permission to play EA games, and may be banned all together from some sites. I think this is pretty standard. (I don’t know how frequently this provision is enforced, and it seems obvious that it won’t often come up because people will just lie about their age when registering to save any hassle). It gets even more wicked because there is language in the policy that differing jurisdictions might require children 14 or 18 and under to register as minors. This is going to lead back to the very serious difficulty that permeates all attempts at on-line regulation. Our society (setting aside international problems for a minute) simply is *not* set up to deal with a medium that is so diffuse and intangible. I really feel sympathy for EA and any other company in this area: how the hell are they supposed to tell if a child is playing in the game? Largely, it will have to be up to parents to regulate this, but EA can at least try to keep games teen-appropriate in line with their Content policy guidelines. That is, supposing they wish to have the game rated as such. So parents, who will have the final say on Content their children are exposed to on-line, don’t feel the need to peek over their child’s shoulder every two minutes.

    I think this is a very far-from-easy issue, and I really appreciate the interview from Uri and all the thoughtful comments that have hit this board.
22. 

    sim1
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Actually, Evangeline is Aurora Ivy. I’m sure of it.
23. 

    sim2
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Me too. He is a 42-year-old who lives up the street from me.
24. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Hmmm…only 10 more sims to go and I guess we can all categorically say that Aurora Ivy is Evangeline and that he is not a minor.

    –Phin
25. 

    SubGum
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    I’ve never played the Sims Online, but wow, I can’t believe how serious you guys take this stuff. Maybe a lot of you could use a break from this game and actually have more of a life in the real world instead of 1/2 online and 1/2 in real life. That’s just weird man. I’m 16 by the way, and it sounds like there’s some pretty messed up stuff in this game, I’ll wait for World of Warcraft. Oh, and Aurora Ivy, stay cool and don’t get too caught up with this game.
26. 

    Felicia'
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Shadow Boy, BULLSHIT! I and Evangeline were RL bestfriends since Aug 2003. You are NOT intellectual! Your head is so small like a bat face. And i know better then you, little boy! =)
27. 

    sim3
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Well if my ten personalities have any say in the matter, we’d like to put in our votes, annnd that should just about take care of it.

    Democracy rules!
28. 

    Felicia'
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Evangeline is not Aurora Ivy…
    Aurora Ivy is so ugly and pathetic like that handicapped little boy (Shadow Boy)

    Shadow Boy and Aurora Ivy, please leave Evangeline alone! and get a life =)
29. 

    Sims
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Felicia’ is Aurora Ivy! I have proof!
30. 

    Felicia'
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Shadow Boy, Dra t helvetet, Din jvla kuksugare!

    You cant speak swedish. Im intellectual, you are not. =)
31. 

    Felicia'
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Im not Aurora Ivy. I hate bears
32. 

    Felicia'
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Sorry i believed u mean intelligent, Shadow.. ok nevermind
33. 

    NotFelicia'
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    I like Swedish Fish…

    I’m also not Shadow Boy, but thanks.

    Oh, and apostrophes — try them sometime. You intellectual, you…
34. 

    urizenus
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Felicia’ and Shadow, stand down please. We know how you feel about each other.

    On another matter, troll of the day award goes to Phin, who is also sim1 and sim2 in this thread (all have the same IP address). Dude, you don’t even play this game. Why are you over here spewing your venom and accusing some 13 year old kid of being Evangeline? If you have a beef with me be up front about it. Don’t try and take out your problems on some little kid. Grow up.
35. 

    Shawn Man X
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Yah, if you have it in your profile, or you admit to being under 13 while ingame, than EA can acording to http://www.eagames.com/official/thesims/thesimsonline/us/home/info.jsp#agreement

    under “About Children”

    “A Player’s Disclosure of An Age 12 or Under On Your Account May Lead to Termination of Your Account

    We strongly discourage the disclosure of personal information during game play, and we strongly discourage use of the Game by children under 13.

    If EA discovers that someone is playing on your Account and disclosing his or her age as 12 or under, EA may suspend your Account and ask you to sign a form confirming consent to your child’s participation in the Game and to his or her disclosure of personal information. Until we have confirmation of the above, we may not release your Account. If we do not hear from you within thirty (30) days, we may terminate your Account. You are responsible for all subscription fees while your Account is suspended.

    YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT IF A CHILD DISCLOSES HIS OR HER AGE ON TSO OR TSO RELATED SERVICES WHILE USING YOUR ACCOUNT, EA MAY TERMINATE YOUR ACCOUNT AT EA’S SOLE DISCRETION.

    YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT IF A PLAYER ON YOUR ACCOUNT DISCLOSES HIS OR HER AGE AS TWELVE YEARS OLD OR YOUNGER, EA MAY TERMINATE YOUR ACCOUNT REGARDLESS OF THE ACTUAL AGE OF THE PLAYER.”

    Thank you once again for your time.
36. 

    Felicia'
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    I am not 13 years old.
37. 

    U-571
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    WOW! underage prostitution and the Sims Mafia!!!! i’m buying this game right now!!!!
38. 

    Paul "Phinehas" Schwanz
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Uri, as you well know, my posts were intended to make a point regarding anonymity and the internet. Accusing me of trying to take my problems out on some little kid is simply more of your typical sensationalism. You are once again being disingenuous. But just to set things straight, I retract what I (sim1 and sim2) said about Aurora Ivy and Evangeline.

    I didn’t go to great lengths to try to hide my identity, and yet Uri had to check IP addresses to see that sim1 and sim2 were me. If I’d wanted to, I could have logged in from different computers and could have set up hotmail accounts. This is the reality of the internet. Uri can check IP addresses here because he has administrative privileges for this site. One wonders how he managed to check the IP addresses of all those sims who vouched for Aurora’s identity, however. And failing to check the IP addresses, one really wonders how he can “categorically” make claims about either identity or age.

    So Uri, please explain just how you verified the identities of those you say vouched for Aurora’s age. And if you haven’t verified their identities, then how the heck can you “categorically” say anything?

    –Phin
39. 

    urizenus
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Phin, if you don’t want to believe me don’t. I really don’t care. I say that Aurora Ivy is not Evangeline and about a dozen people in Alpha support this.

    Yes, it could be a very clever person with 12 accounts attempting to stage an elaborate hoax. Indeed, a person who has been setting this whole thing up for the past year. Or maybe there is a very very clever person who runs all 100,000 accounts on TSO. Or maybe we are all asleep in little pods and the Matrix is making us falsely believe that TSO exists when it doesn’t exist at all.

    What on Earth is your problem?
40. 

    DobbieGillis
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    I believe Oswald was set up,
    I believe Gore votes were thrown away in Florida,

    and I believe Evangeline/Felica’/Celestie/Grandma/Simname Fiftythree and YES AURORA IVY are the same person? Some pathetic jerk who can’t get laid so he scams newbies to make up for his shortcommings. Say what you want, but this is what I believe and nothing will prove otherwise unless someone provides videotape of a 13 year old so called girl playing Aurora in the game. But then again HE could always hire some chic to do that, and tapes can be doctored.

    I have a right to speak my mind…the US is still a democracy for now.
41. 

    Zoomway
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Yeah, for now.

    Oh and I’M Evangeline too. But you knew that…
42. 

    van
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Im fuckin newbs in the face.. the game is mine Ghetto superstar
43. 

    van
    

    Dec 24th, 2003
    

    Im fuckin newbs in the face.. the game is mine Ghetto superstar
44. 

    nav
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    What was that? I didn’t quite catch that…
45. 

    Tobe Lerone
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    DobbieGillis, >>IF
46. 

    Tobe Lerone
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Let’s try that again:

    DobbieGillis, IF you really are who you say you are …you of all “people” would understand that an Oswaldian conspiracy theory, Gore’s chadless loss, and whether or not all the you’vealreadymentionedthem avie screen names belong to one and the same user – that comparing the first two to the last is the use of a false analogy. Twice, even.

    Furthermore, if you could get your head out of your raccoon BMOC coat, you’d know that saying

    - – - “Say what you want, [blah blah blah - should be edited for brevity but I can't or I couldn't make my smarmy witty point - blah blah blah] but this is what I believe and nothing will prove otherwise unless someone provides videotape of a 13 year old so called girl playing Aurora in the game. But then again HE could always hire some chic to do that, and tapes can be doctored.”

    - – - that saying all of that is an excellent and rather tortureous example of circular reasoning, another form of fallacy or false logic.

    Amazing …throw in bandwagon effect and maybe a used car salesman’s appeal to higher authority and you’ve got the makings of a GREAT democratic presidential nomination candidate.

    I hear they’re still accepting applications.

    Ooops …I am starting to non sequiter so…

    No peace …and out.

    Also, I realize there may be a few typos in this post. If so, then when you start paying me to read what I write, my Mother said she would gladly edit my writing, again.

    Tobe “You Gotta Love Me — I’m Chocolate” Lerone
    thetoblerone@hotmail.com
    (box is probably full so if it bounces back, keep trying or don’t)
    …all of those, AND my “bear face”… X8{} …are exclusively for evangeline cum van cum whatevah cum whatmay.
47. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Aurora Ivy is not Evangeline. I’ve tracked them both extensively. Many patterns of speech, behavior, etc. are different, and that sort of thing is hard to fake consistently over long periods of time.
48. 

    Umkay
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    Tobe Lerone, as far as analogies go, all Dobbie was alluding to, I believe, was the fact that he/she believes “Oswald was set up,” (against the common thought), she believes “Gore votes were thrown away in Florida,” (ditto), and also C (that Aurora = Evangeline, another statement that is believed, at this time, by few people.) Dobbie *believes* all 3. Therefore they connect. Pretty simple; nothing underhanded, here.

    Tobe, I believe your first mistake was assuming Dobbie is just a casual reader of the AH who read one article, jumped to a conclusion, and is sitting on his or her butt going “Dernit, I like the conclusion I drew, and I’m keepin’ it. Aint nobody gonna convince me otherwise!”

    Many people have been tracking these people. Many have visited Evangeline’s place under the cover of Newbie Sims. Who can say Dobbie isn’t one of them?

    There’s no way to prove anything, everything is evidence and hearsay and rumor. And so we could go on arguing forever. Urizenus stated that he could definitely state that Aurora WASN’T Evangeline. His evidence? People have messaged him in the game or emailed him or whatever vouching for Aurora. The point is, the ONLY people that KNOW the truth are: the person behind the Sim Evangeline, and the person behind the Sim Aurora.

    Let’s see a show of hands — who here trusts Evangeline?

    So Dobbie chooses to believe what he/she believes. Don’t knock it without assuming that he/she hasn’t made an educated conclusion based on evidence he/she has collected from playing in Alpha and watching both of these Sims.

    And Dyerbrook, I totally understand where you’re coming from. However, one thing still bothers me. In Evangeline’s interview here at the AH, he stated that the meanness Evan puts out in the game is nothing like himself (the gamer) in real-life… that this is just a game and is all an act. At first I didn’t believe that anyone who had half an ounce of decency in real-life could be such an ass in-game. But assuming that he is able to pull off a this wide personality shift in & out of the game, then why couldn’t he pull off being two completely-different-personalied Sims in the game? In all honesty, Dyerbrook, with all due respect to you, I would be very interested in seeing the evidence you’ve collected, in terms of screencaps and chat logs and whatever else. Maybe you could give it to Urizenus and we could start to get to the bottom of this.

    Orrrr we could just leave Aurora alone and focus on our mass-attack to thwart the evil ways of Evangeline. Hey, that second one sounds more fun anyway.
49. 

    van
    

    Dec 25th, 2003
    

    i fuck a sim just for practice give a fake adress play innocent like an actress
50. 

    RB
    

    Dec 26th, 2003
    

    Christ, look at all the idiots here. Fark. the AVH comments section is not your personal bitch fest & rants forum, go elsewhere. Will all the immature morons please leave and let the few people who have actually had something constructive and reasonable to say in this debate remain?

    TY.

    - RB

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