The Alphaville Herald

241 Responses to “Interview with Selene Moon on Wicca and Witchcraft in Alphaville”

1. 

   Maria LaVeaux
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   Selene,

   I won’t go into my Background, or how i know what i know, I simply suggest chere, that you look to your own advice.

   “Urizenus: anything you want to add?
   Selene Moon: just…to not play with stuff u don’t always understand”

   What you are dealing with Isn’t a game. it CAN be dangerous.
   Take it from someone older and more experienced, If not wiser. Don’t do anything, Don’t touch anything until you have greatly expanded your knowledge.
   This Isn’t Pokemon.

   Blessed be chere.
   Maria.
2. 

   Mistress Sly
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   Urizenus I seem to miss the point of this article. Selene seems to be a young person exploring TSO and Wiccan but you seem to mock her. This is not one of your best interviews.

   Mistress Sly
3. 

   Urizenus
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   Hmmm, no mockery intended. I think it’s an interesting topic.
4. 

   Old Hippie
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   Sweetheart? She called me a sweatheart? BAH! I must protest – I am a grumpy old coot and proud of it. To Maria…not to worry, Selene is asking more intelligent questions than most in her age bracket – refreshing to see it. To the Lady Sly… I agree, I took it as he was making fun much of the time. To Urizenus… doncha just love this country – first amendment and all? -Hip
5. 

   Mistress Maria LaVeaux
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   I will accept your assurances chere,
   This is not a thing to be trifled with carelessly.

   Be well.
   Maria.
6. 

   Stella Dives
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   Well done Selene and thank you for drawing attention to the issue of paganism in TSO. Not much of an issue though from what Ive seen. We are scattered and unorganized. But, we are around. I dont advertise the fact that I study Wicca. Although I do mention it briefly in my web profile. My friends know and I tried to connect w Piper once. She’s a highly visible Wiccan in game. Im not going to chastise Selene for seeking out other Pagans or for her interest in the Craft. Yeah, she should be careful. Well, I should be careful. But, Im not. LOL Live and learn. Big deal. Selene, good luck in your search. Id say youve been fairly successful so far. Youve managed to draw some of us out long enough to respond to this article. As for Uri, well, Uri is one of my best friends online. He has never mocked my beliefs. I dont sense that he recognizes witchcraft as real. And, I cant speak for him. But, if it appears he is “making fun” please know that Uri is just a condescending bastard in general. He’s not picking on Wicca. Infact, I sense that he has an interest in it otherwise he would not have done this article. I would like to know why you never look into my eyes though Uri? *sigh* Is it because your always staring at my chest? hehehe
7. 

   Dyerbrook
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   Now, why am I not surprised that AV’s premiere dominatrix is also a witch and doing more than dabbling on the dark side? Do they always go together, wiccan and BDSM? I had understood that they decidedly don’t. Not that I care. I’m not a witch-hunter, despite all the crazed claims on this blog that I am LOL.
8. 

   toy
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   quotes Dyerbrook……” Not that I care. I’m not a witch-hunter, despite all the crazed claims on this blog that I am LOL.”

   toy would ask why you felt compelled to post here then if as you state you dont care

   toy
9. 

   SS
   

   Jan 21st, 2004
   

   You know what I love? Pagans. They’re cute, and cuddly, and they you can hug ‘em and love’em and just about eat ‘em up cuz they’re just so scrumptious! Yeah, pagans…..
10. 

    dyerbrook
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    Dyerbrook would ask toy why toy would ask that Dyerbrook be compelled to post here if he doesn’t care if she doesn’t care what Dyerbrook posts about anymore as she’s said about a zillion times.
11. 

    toy
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    hmmmm girl is starting to get to you dyerbrook??
12. 

    Mistress of Darkness
    

    Jan 21st, 2004
    

    Im very happy to see an article about Wicca/witchcraft/paganism. Since i have been studying it for a few years..slowly..but im learning . I think there is such a thing as a bad witch..well..My mom knew a lady who was wiccan..and somehow turned evil? lol. The lady told her their was a active evil spirit around ME. I am not an evil person..but if anyone could help me..it would be appreciated..I want to know how this lady knows things…though im not evil..she might be right..maybe there is an evil spirit around me .
13. 

    samhain
    

    Jan 22nd, 2004
    

    Good job with the interview Selene. I look forward to meeting you one day
14. 

    Danni
    

    Jan 22nd, 2004
    

    Dyerbrook, do you have any actual proof that MariaLaveaux is “more than dabbling on the dark side”? It can’t be anything she wrote in her post, surely, since all she did was give Selene a friendly piece of advice about being careful.

    Or maybe it’s just that you have slowly but sure become so narrowminded and paranoid that even the concept of Wiccan beliefs seem evil to you?

    Danni
15. 

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 22nd, 2004
    

    “Now, why am I not surprised that AV’s premiere dominatrix is also a witch and doing more than dabbling on the dark side? ”

    As for being “AV’s premiere dominatrix” Thank you for the compliment chere, though i Differe such honours to others, I am content to Practice my “Arts” at home quietly.

    As for being a Witch, Again, would that i were chere,, I am in fact a Devout Roman Catholic. My knowledge comes from my Background,, the places i grew up, and something else that might seem alien to you chere,,,
    I have been known to Occasionally Read a Book. I have a broad spectrum of Knowledge chere,, not all of it practical in nature. I have read Carl Sagan, that doesn’t make me an Astronomer, I have read Stephen Hawking, that doesn’t make me a theoretical Physicist, I have read Sherlock Holmes, that doesn’t make me a detective. This seems to be the fundamental flaw in Dyerbrooks thinking processes, he seems to think that Any Knowledge of a subject automaticly makes one a Practicioner.(If he has read the Bible, it obviously explains his Massiah Complex). I have a very open mind on many subjects including the potential of the Pegan arts, i don’t dismiss them out of hand, NOR do i brand them as inherantly evil. What i DO say in regards to them is,”Do not trifle with things you do not understand, Be Careful”.
    “There are more things in heavan and Earth than are dreamed of in your Philosiphy Horatio.” (William Shakespeare)

    Oh,, and one other i think dyer should know.
    “If thine eyes offend thee, Pluck them out.” (The Bible.)

    Mistress Maria LaVeaux.
16. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 22nd, 2004
    

    RE: “Dyerbrook, do you have any actual proof that MariaLaveaux is “more than dabbling on the dark side”?

    Your claim that I am narrow-minded and paranoid, Danni, is extraordinary, and opens up the question of whether YOU are those things, if you cannot look at the statements as presented, and draw logical conclusions from them.

    Let’s review what Maria said: “I won’t go into my Background, or how i know what i know, I simply suggest chere, that you look to your own advice.”

    Well, now, anyone who is so pompous as to refer to to their past as “Background” with a capital “B” (Mon Dieux!) will simply have to realize that it can be construed in this particular discussion as either a) being into witchcraft or b) hurt by witchcraft due to hanging on the dark side. I mean, really! The text can admit no other interpretation. Are you mad?? To construe this as merely a helpful hint to Selene is only half the story — she presents an entirely loaded statement, suggestive of dark chambers to which we cretins are not privy.

    You all are so accommodated by the vapid public school system and the inane culture that you are entirely unuse to rhetorical debate. Each and every challenge punctures your world, and engenders screams of “biggot” and “prejudiced”. It never occurs to you that something can be intellectually opposed, debated, but still understood to have a right to exist in the landscape.

    I say that BDSM or witchcraft is evil -seems so to me — for many reasons. That doesn’t mean that regarding witchcraft, as distinct from the offenses of violence and slavery, there can’t be the attitude of “freedom of religion belief or freedom from belief”. If someone wants to pursue this path, who could stop them in America or TSO? And no one *is* stopping them, you little spoiled babies, they are merely QUESTIONING whether the half-baked silly or even dangerous beliefs they represent, concocted by autodidacts and autocrats, through loose networks of subcultures across the American wastelands, should form a philosophical basis for our world. And we don’t get a choice in the matter, do we, when skilling or boarding, we are surrounded by the idiots of these worlds, who have no awareness or any tolerance for any other kind of manner of being.

    Let Maris tell us whether she is or is not a witch — let’s stop being so coy. Or how it came to be that she was hurt by her sojourn on the dark side. As for her claim to be an adherent to Roman Catholicism, that’s a matter for her confessor and her God to decide. I personally don’t find it credible.
17. 

    TSKelli
    

    Jan 22nd, 2004
    

    Oh my, oh my, oh my.

    Dyerbrook, can’t you tell the difference between religious faith and personal practice? Most of the best BDSMers I have known in r/l are religious practitioners – scary for you, perhaps, but true nonetheless.

    Honestly, what is wrong with what two consenting adults who are committed to each other do in the privacy of their own lives? Why does it offend you so much? What is so “evil” about BDSM when it is consensual with each party free to give its consent?

    Honestly, it isn’t about a thought police problem. It’s about an intolerance problem. You are clearly intolerant of BDSM when you characterise it as “evil”. Slavery is evil, but BDSM isn’t slavery, it’s consensual power exchange. Violence is evil, but the pain exchanged in some BDSM circles isn’t violence, it’s a test and an affirmation of submission. And, frankly, Mistress Maria is a Gorean and they are not into physical domination in the same way that “traditional” BDSMers might be, so you are really barking up the wrong tree here, it seems to me.

    I think you are narrowminded and misinformed from what I have seen in your posts to date here. Sorry, I don’t mean to offend, but that’s how I see it from where I am sitting.

    TSKelli
18. 

    Stella Dives
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Education is wasted on bigots like Dyerbrook. Yeah, I said a bigot. I call it like I see it. Your arguements are groundless. Your logic is deviant. And, I cant be bothered to explain myself or my reasoning. Im a very busy and popular girl. I can offer one bit of advice though. Seek therapy.
19. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    I know of no major religion in the world that condones violence and enslavement of other human beings, even under the guise of consent. You’re wrong on that, of course, and your attempts to propagandize to the contrary are easily refuted. So I don’t know how you square that circle unless you are counting satanism as a major world religion or something.

    This isn’t a thread about BDSM, but let me repeat once again for all you oh-so-popular girls: your claims about consent are completely unconvincing when I see your willingness to slam anyone who questions you as a bully, and when I see your willingness to parade around a game with kids in it without any consideration, and when I see your willingness to bludgeon others not consenting to your lifestyle with threats of the whip, the boot on the neck, etc. Constant claims that someone is insane and “needs treatment” because they rationally pick apart your pathetic arguments is also a form of violence. You can’t seem to find any way of defending yourself except through name-calling and threats.

    It means you live in a world of severe intolerance where no one can question anything without being slammed, and where you think a thing is true merely because you say it, like the Red Queen. As if the distinction between religious belief and practice was operative here!
20. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    RE: “Honestly, what is wrong with what two consenting adults who are committed to each other do in the privacy of their own lives? Why does it offend you so much?”

    I guess you missed the 300 posts on this subject elsewhere on the page but since this bleating of yours relates to the wiccan subject as well, let’s examine it.

    Well, DUH. This isn’t ABOUT consent in the privacy of your own home to do BDSM, witchcraft, or any other damn thing. I’m glad you’ve put it that way because now maybe you’ll be able to get a basic fact of TSO: You are NOT IN THE PRIVACY OF YOUR OWN LIVES in TSO DUH DUH DUH. Is that like TOO HARD to get or something???? You are in a COMMON PUBLIC PLACE. As Prof. Ludlow said in the PBS interview, there are fewer and fewer safe and comfortable public spaces available in RL, and the Internet has supplanted them.

    When you are in a COMMON PUBLIC SPACE you don’t bring the practices of your bedroom because there are CHILDREN in that COMMON PUBLIC SPACE. That’s what this debate is about. It’s not about your right to do your thing in RL — who is challenging you about that? (That’s why all these crazy notions like Lady J’s claim that I’m going to start shooting people in leather are just that — part of her sick fantasy world.) It’s not about your right to cyber on your private lot in TSO in private IMs with whatever fantasy you have– who has EVER challenged that? It’s about how you behavior in a COMMON PUBLIC SPACE. This isn’t a COMMON *PUBIC* SPACE which is what you would like it to be, but a COMMON PUBLIC SPACE. Therefore, the question is, is it appropriate to bring in hardcore sex, alternative lifestyles like paganism or satanism, when there are not only 15-year-old girls but even younger kids and when there are adults who DO NOT CONSENT to these lifestyles. They did NOT BUY A GAME BOX with these lifestyles and don’t want them when they are in the COMMON PUBLIC SPACE of the game as a whole, and the generic skill, money-making lots, etc.

    What the request is to the witches and whippers is that you make your own lots, get your own damn 18 people for your skilling lot, and stay off the generic lots. Stop bullying lot owners and imagine they consent to your take-over because they say nothing or act cheerful to get customers, even though they secretly feel very dismayed. Try to have some common sense and courtesy about others as you flaunt your thing and parade around with your come-hither ads. That’s what this is about. For you to turn it into a discussion about your rights, about bigotry, etc. replete with nasty name-calling and threats is extremely disturbing. It means you are not willing to COOPERATE for the PUBLIC GOOD which includes tolerance of, and zoning of your alternative behaviors but does not condone a TAKEOVER of you of all common spaces. As I keep saying, in RL, you wouldn’t feel it was appropriate to parade around playing with whips in a public library, and you wouldn’t draw a circle of stones and practice rituals in a public school playground. So why do you think you can do it here?

    Because you think “anything goes,” you are beginning to experience the intrusion of the society at large, in the form of the mass media, which begins to raise questions as to whether this is all appropriate. Even Urizenus, satanist and love of whippers and witches that he is, when he is in his professorial mode, is willing to concede that “policy-makers” might be concerned about what goes on in TSO, not only because of the issue of children, but the issue of *what kind of world it signifies for adults*. The majority of Americans don’t want a world based on the ideologies of wiccan, paganism, satanism, and BDSM. That’s for sure. And they don’t want their youth and gullible middle-aged women — the demographics of this game — sucked into these ways of life. All I am doing is speaking to that norm that is out there, which is completely irrelevant to you as your practice in your tiny space in your alternative community, but which must become visible to you when you come into the larger public space.

    And what we have learned from weeks of screeching debates from you all, and thousands of posts, is that you care nothing about the common good, the public space, the community at large. You care only about your own hedonistic desires and cranky beliefs. You don’t care if children of 13 or 15 are brought into these deviant lifestyles, because you yourselves brag how you were brought into them yourselves by adults. Most people playing the game just want to have fun and don’t think about these issues. But if you don’t think of them, you threaten the world of TSO because then other forces will take it down. It doesn’t matter to you, because you will merely find the next playground. Squirrel’s constant reference to these games as “sandboxes” is quite telling–it reveals the mindset of a spoiled child who thinks everything should be designed for his entertainment, and everyone else be damned.
21. 

    toy
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    dyerbrook…… you ask who brought BDSM into these postings? well read back it was you who did that…… you dont even remember now what you post from one post to the other…. your a self acclaimed messiah to the masses which happnens to lack any support for your biased ideas…. toy is sure if anyone did share your views they wouldnt come forward here simply because they could be so easily associated to you and toy has met no one that would care to be associated with someone with such perverted views…

    toy is selfassured in her beliefs and has no need to, as you seem to think…

    “As I keep saying, in RL, you wouldn’t feel it was appropriate to parade around playing with whips in a public library, and you wouldn’t draw a circle of stones and practice rituals in a public school playground. So why do you think you can do it here? ”

    yet you feel driven to ‘parade’ your narrowminded ideas here… arent you parading now?

    once again you mention…. “The majority of Americans don’t want a world based on the ideologies of wiccan, paganism, satanism, and BDSM. ”

    try as you might its only you that believe this. toy has never seen this ‘majority’ or is this just another figment of your twisted imagination?

    the BDSM community is the only community that actively does try to screen out anyone under 18 which also lends another lie to you posting………

    “You don’t care if children of 13 or 15 are brought into these deviant lifestyles, because you yourselves brag how you were brought into them yourselves by adults.”

    more lies dyerbrook? they seem to be rolling easily of your tongue now…. loosing control of yourself? seek help you desperately are in need of it.

    rest well dyerbrook, toy certainly does

    toy
22. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Toy, you’re so silly! Can’t YOU keep track of your own postings? You’re only 19 now. And, er, you’ve only been in “the life” for one year? That doesn’t seem to square with what you’ve written here and elsewhere. But it doesn’t matter, does it? Let the world go to hell in a handbasket…
23. 

    Cocoanut
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    The professor was on PBS? . . . sigh . . .

    I wish if one thing could be gotten straight, it would be that he was terminated from TSO due to the fact that he STILL HAD on his property description a link to this site which STILL HAD links to cheats, which he had PLUM FORGOT about.

    I have known people in the game far less important than the professor who had the SAME DANG THING happen to them.

    But back to the topic at hand, I notice this is about religion, and it gives me the opportunity to venture forth with what I think I personally disagree with most about BDSM, as well as the slave thing.

    I have read a number of posts on here which wax eloquent in describing the love and the relationships between the dominant person in the relationship and the submissive one. I was struck, reading along in those one day, by what I think bothers me the most:

    The worshiping of the dom by the sub, it occured to me, is worship best applied to God, not to another human being. Conversely, though this part wasn’t as evident, it seems that the being-worshipped position of the dom is a role best confined to God.

    That, to me, is the sin of it – putting humans in the place of God. That is different from Wiccans. I would have more respect for Wiccans, as they have a sort of God, whatever it is, nature, whatever, a spirit, several Gods, I’m not sure – but whatever it is, that is who they accord their greatest respect and devotion to, not another human being.

    Although the love between a dom and sub is a good thing, and I do understand that it provides structure, it seems to me one has a need to be worshipped and to control while the other has a need to be controlled and to worship. To me, the only right figure to give one’s life over to, to worship, or to subjegate ones actions to, would be God, whether represented as in Christianity, or as in Wiccan. And to me, the only figure deserving of such worship and relinquishment of control and submission to, would be God, not another human being.

    That is my main observation on the dom/sub thing, and as a result, I tend to think of those people as looking for God in all the wrong places. Wiccans, though their God/Gods may be different from mine, at least don’t have them situated in another human.

    JMHO

    coco
24. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Looks with pity at Dyer. Get a life man! Or woman, whatever you may be. You are going to give yourself a stroke. And for what? No-one here agrees with you, and you will not change our minds. And the world, real or TSO, does not want you as messiah. Remember what happened to the last messiah–he was crucified.

    Leave others alone and get some help for yourself. Before plucking the mote out of my eye, remove the log from your own.
25. 

    urizenus
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Coco, thanks for trying to steer us back on topic here. Folks, can we keep the eye on wicca rather than BDSM here? Unless you want to talk about the connections, which seem accidental at best.

    I’m particularly interested in the question of whether virtual meeting places like TSO “work” for pactices like a circle or other ceremonies. Is it a poor substitute for a real life meeting? Is it as good as a circle in meat space? Something in between?
26. 

    TS Kelli
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    “Well, DUH. This isn’t ABOUT consent in the privacy of your own home to do BDSM, witchcraft, or any other damn thing.”

    Oh contraire. You have made it absolutely clear that you find the BDSM practice in any context repulsive, perverse and evil. That’s the reason why you object to it in TSO to begin with.

    “When you are in a COMMON PUBLIC SPACE you don’t bring the practices of your bedroom because there are CHILDREN in that COMMON PUBLIC SPACE. That’s what this debate is about. It’s not about your right to do your thing in RL — who is challenging you about that?”

    I agree fully that the children need to be adequately screened (there are parental controls that help with this, but I also agree that those who are playing in the game need to take strict precautions to protect both themselves and the minors who may be traipsing through inappropriate lots) and everyone playing in TSO needs to do this – not just BDSMers, but casinos, mafiosos, strip joints, brothels, etc. Why do you insist on singling us out? I assure you that we do not SEEK OUT minors to participate in our activities, as much as you seem to think otherwise.

    “It’s not about your right to cyber on your private lot in TSO in private IMs with whatever fantasy you have– who has EVER challenged that?”

    Hmm, dunno what this is referring to, but I don’t do this, for one.

    “What the request is to the witches and whippers is that you make your own lots, get your own damn 18 people for your skilling lot, and stay off the generic lots. Stop bullying lot owners and imagine they consent to your take-over because they say nothing or act cheerful to get customers, even though they secretly feel very dismayed.”

    I think this calls for putting us in ghettos. That was tried in WWII and didn’t work out very well, Dyer. I think we should have freedom of movement like everyone else, but we should take care to protect those around us who may be underage – each person’s individual responsibility if they happen to step into a generic lot, I think.

    “The majority of Americans don’t want a world based on the ideologies of wiccan, paganism, satanism, and BDSM. That’s for sure.”

    But who’s forcing whom? If they don’t like us, stay away. If they don’t want us on their lots, boot us. Or are you saying thay they are too greedy to do that? Well, I guess that speaks volumes about how strongly they supposedly feel against folk like us, doesn’t it? Does the phrase “put your money where your mouth is” have any meaning?

    “You care only about your own hedonistic desires and cranky beliefs.”

    It really ISN’T hedonistic, but that’s another sign of your misunderstanding.

    “You don’t care if children of 13 or 15 are brought into these deviant lifestyles, because you yourselves brag how you were brought into them yourselves by adults.”

    Well, I wasn’t, and, see above, I do care about the issue of exposure to minors.

    “Squirrel’s constant reference to these games as “sandboxes” is quite telling–it reveals the mindset of a spoiled child who thinks everything should be designed for his entertainment, and everyone else be damned.”

    Woo, what a rant.

    Now, for a more structured response…

    First, I do believe that you disapprove of BDSM in general, and not just in TSO, and that this disapproval, or, more accurately, loathing,, is really what informs your critiques of what people are doing in TSO.

    Second, I also believe that you misunderstand my point about religion. Let’s take the Catholic Church – they don’t condone condom use but we all know that well over 70% of US Catholics use condoms, even church-going Catholics. So what does that mean? Does it mean we can say these folks aren’t Catholic because they are doing something that their official church doesn’t condone? I hardly think so. The Catholic Church also believes that people can’t practice homosexuality, that people can’t even have heterosexual oral sex because oral sex is not conducive to procreation, yet of course there are many church-hoing Catholics who are practicing Gays as well and the vast majority of Catholics engage in oral sex regardless of what the Church teaches about it. Does that mean you can doubt the fact that they are Catholic? The same holds true for BDSM – there are many folks who engage in it who are nevertheless church-goers, and you do not have the right to denigrate them for doing so, in my opinion. You have no right to attack Mistress Maria’s statement that she is a devout Catholic based on the fact that she practices BDSM any more than you can attack someone who says thei are a devout Catholic but uses condoms during sex .. you’re not the flipping Pope, Dyer. You have to simply take the statement at face value and realize that there are many folks who engage in these activities who are also spiritually engaged, and not in satanism or wicca.

    Third, I do not at all believe that people are forcing you to adopt a BDSM lifestyle or adopt Gorean-inspired philosophy. What really seems to be the case is that the mere presence of folks who do have these interests is a source of endless irritation for you. Fine, I’m sorry for you, but get over it. People are different and each of us believes different things, and practices different things. That’s diversity and it’s a great part of being an American. Noone has to enter a BDSM lot, do they? By the same token, you can live in SF and choose to stay away from the numerous alternative lifestyle folks who live there – or simply choose to live somewhere else – but you can’t question their right to live where they wish and do what they wish to in an as open a manner as they wish.

    Fourth, regarding the issue of minors, please see above. It is an issue of personal responsibility that every responsible adult participant in TSO must take seriously, and it is also an issue that every parent of a minor must take seriously relating to their child’s participation in an online game of any type.

    TSKelli
27. 

    TSKelli
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Oops, didn’t see that steering post. Sorry for being off-topic (I do think that many of my comments apply to the wiccan issue as well, mind you), and I’ll refrain from commenting further in this thread about non-Wiccan issues.
28. 

    Mikal
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    BDSM and D/s is not a religion. It is a lifestyle choice. As far as bragging about being “brought” into the lifestyle as a child by an adult,nor were very many O/others that i’ve had the pleasure to talk to. That is another illusion of one very angry person. i wasn’t “brought” into BDSM – - D/s. i sought it as an adult. i am 35 years old and able to make my own decisions about whether or not this is for me. In regards to this quote “I know of no major religion in the world that condones violence and enslavement of other human beings, even under the guise of consent.”, take a look at the Middle Eastern religions in regards to women and girls. Think again. Also, since when has Wicca, Witchcraft, BDSM and D/s become such a majority in the world that you are soooooo scared W/we’ll take over?!?! Doesn’t recall a “plan” for a massive take over of the world or even of one small town. lol Only plans i know being thought of is when the next ceremony (Wiccan) will take place, when a memorial for a friends sister will be, what i will do to please Another. As far as Wicca goes….i live in USA where the freedom to practice ones religion and to be proud of that religion is a “freedom”. Also, alternative lifestyles are no longer considered against the law as long as consensual. i have a friend who happens to be a lawyer. Anyway, blast on as everyone is getting a big kick at how angry you are over online practices.

    be well A/all

    Mikal
29. 

    Lady Julianna
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    There would be no pleasing you anyway, so why would we even try? I was thinking, what would I have to do to please Dyer? (Not that I would.) Renounce BDSM, change my house to something else, behave myself in a moral way.

    Let’s say I changed my house to a convent and set myself up as Mother Superior. I would have nuns under my supervision and command, would look out for their needs, be there for them to talk to and comfort them, punish them for transgressions… Hmmm.. sounds pretty much like what I have, but with women instead of men. Religious persons have even been known to indulge in self-flagellation, whipping themselves. There would be yet another element, the religious aspect. Now that would sound like a cult to me.

    Hmmm.. I don’t think that even setting up a convent would make Dyer happy. I think he would be still on my case then, as he is with the Wiccans.

    You can’t stand to see people have fun Dyer. That is what it comes down to. You would like to see us all put a cork up our ass and listen to you tell us what we should think or how we should play.

    Ummm… NO! lol
30. 

    toy
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    toy will simply ask what has this girls age got to do with it? are you suggesting since toy is ‘only 19′ that she can have no thoughts of her own?

    toy will drop it here so the posting can get back on topic

    toy apologizes for her earlier rants and will enjoy reading the posts here since girl knows nothing of wiccan but would like to learn before drawing her opinions

    toy
31. 

    toy
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    toy will simply ask what has this girls age got to do with it? are you suggesting since toy is ‘only 19′ that she can have no thoughts of her own?

    toy will drop it here so the posting can get back on topic

    toy apologizes for her earlier rants and will enjoy reading the posts here since girl knows nothing of wiccan but would like to learn before drawing her opinions

    toy
32. 

    Maria LaVeaux
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    I agree with Uri, this thread IS about Wicca, and paganism in TSO, SO,
    Ignoring all other rants, and sticking to topic?

    Selene,
    In my studies of Modern Peganism, i have found people have many and varies reasons for turning to the modern variations of the Old religions. If the Question is not to personal chere, What first piqued your interest in Wicca, and what do you see yourself eventually getting from it?
    Is it attractive because of the potential for increasing your personal power (I.E. the professed abilities to effect the natural world)?
    Is it the more decidedly Matriarchal structure of the Beliefs?
    Or do you see a greater potential for Understanding in a beleif system Who’s roots predate Christianity, and many other more common western religions?

    Old Hippie,
    I attended a ceremony at the now defunct Temple of Vesta, Their ceremonies required adherance to a Lunar Calander for purposes of worship. Do you do the same In Game, or do you in any way attempt to use the accelerated Day/night cycle providied by Maxis?
    Also,, In many forms of Wicca, or Witchcraft, there are certain (For want of a better word) props necessary for various rituals, Obviously, Game Limitations do not allow for such items, How do you adapt?

    Hoping these Questions keep us on track.

    Maria LaVeaux.
33. 

    Stella Dives
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    OK Uri I see you need help here *sigh* First, I’d like to clarify that I am not involved in any way with BDSM. I dont have a problem w it either. umm basically I dont give a shit either way LOL I dont see wtf that has to do with Wicca or this thread. To address your question regarding circle casting in a virtual environment ~ The rituals of witchcraft are designed as tools that allow a practitioner to focus attention. The act of ritual is performed to focus attention on a desired goal. There are many ways to cast a circle. It can be as simple as meditation or prayer. Visualization techniques. Channeling energy. That’s what we are REALLY discussing. These energies are not bound to the laws of this physical world. Therefore, it doesnt really matter what space you use to gather it or release it or manipulate it or whatever the fuck you decide to do with it. Ultimately, any ritual is only effective or unsuccessful depending on the skill of the practitioner, not the environment. This means there is no reason why one could not cast a circle in TSO.
34. 

    Selene Moon
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Maria asked how i got into wiccan, “Is it the more decidedly Matriarchal structure of the Beliefs?

    yes, thats probly the reason…its kewl!

    but…the problem is..i think dyerbrook made me up…

    http://syminalist.tripod.com/simsoutofline/id15.html
35. 

    Urizenus
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Hmmmm, Dyerbrook, seems like you went to a lot of work just to be a pseudonymous reporter for the Alphaville Herald. We learned about Old Hippie and Piper and circles etc. thanks to you. So, thanks, I guess.

    I guess the only open question is this: is Selene Moon Dyerbrook, or is Dyerbrook Selene Moon? The world may never know.
36. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    A pseudonymous reporter indeed! More like a totally faked interview subject, Uri. How can you believe anything that Selene Moon or any Sim says. My, you’re stubborn. You’ve been hoaxed, and you can’t even admit it. Selene Moon doesn’t exist. She isn’t me, or anybody. You should try to interview a variety of sources, and compare them, and try to check your facts!

    Let me tell you the most shocking thing about my life as Selene: it isn’t about wiccan. It’s the way in which adults in this game make blatant sexual overtures to other Sims, either not realizing they are only 15-year-olds, or else knowing, and not caring. I must say I hadn’t seen much of that before, but playing as the young Selene, I got IM’d all over the place, i.e. one time, within minutes of meeting a certain Sim I was asked if I was wearing any panties, told about debauchery, etc. This is the reality of TSO. I didn’t even fully believe it myself until I experienced it. It wasn’t even the point of this hoax, but an accidental by-product. And it’s a sad commentary.
37. 

    Urizenus
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Well Dyerbrook, hoaxes are supposed to be things like pet island or fat busters. Their contents are supposed to be *false*. The problem here is that Old Hippie and Piper exist (and if anyone has a beef with you it should be them and not me). The other problem is that the way blog reporting works is that the fact checking and error correction happens in the comment section of the blog. Finally, it doesn’t matter if the avatar is named Dyerbrook or Selene, what we are interested in is what she says about the wiccan community, and we want to user her words as a way to launch a discussion and learn more, with a broad audience participating. It’s about a community of reporters and learners. Get it?

    I guess the real question here is whether you haven’t utterly discredited yourself as a contributor to this community. Now you want to tell us that while playing Selene you were struck by “the way in which adults in this game make blatant sexual overtures to other Sims, either not realizing they are only 15-year-olds, or else knowing, and not caring. I must say I hadn’t seen much of that before, but playing as the young Selene, I got IM’d all over the place, i.e. one time, within minutes of meeting a certain Sim I was asked if I was wearing any panties, told about debauchery, etc. This is the reality of TSO.” Do you want us to believe that? Why should we? Perhaps it is another one of your hoaxes. Is your ranting against BDSM also a hoax? Do you even know yourself?
38. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Irritated, are we, professor? How can you know whether a single thing said about Piper or Old Hippie or witches or wiccan is true if the Sim is a hoax? How can we know that ANY of your interviews are true, if ONE of them is now revealed to be made up by me, and ANY of them could have been — and might well have been! — made up by me — and I’m not telling! That’s the hoax, duh. My, that witch was quite correct when she called you a condescending bastard. It is your “academic” credentials that are being called into question by your propensity for interviewing any old simulated character that comes across the transom, without any fact-checking. Did you ever bother to go to Piper and ask her if she knew Selene, and if what Selene said was true?

    Say what you will about my BDSM rants being a hoax, or anything I say or do being a hoax — who cares? The world doesn’t care about me, or whether I tell the truth or not, I’m just a Sims player, because I’m not trying to get into the mass media and sell my book. You are.

    I guess you need to study the history of hoaxes and propaganda a little bit better, Uri, before you start lecturing me. The best kind of hoaxes are those that have some partial truths contained within them, or truths framed in a lie, that are plausible at first.

    What’s important about Selene is that she is 15, and that adults ostensibly lured her into a lifestyle, and didn’t care that she was 15, and didn’t even ask, and were prepared to initiate her into the rites of wiccan, something that at least some parents might find unsettling, because they didn’t see it on the TSO box. That’s what’s important, Uri, and you know it. All this blather about the “community of learners” is so much hocum. And it is you who are publishing hoaxes, Uri, not me. Get it?
39. 

    urizenus
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    I’m not irritated, I just don’t see why we should believe your stories about being propositioned while playing a 15 year old girl, or for that matter, why we should believe anything you say about BDSM. All we’ve really established here is that you are dishonest.
40. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    Re: “I guess the real question here is whether you haven’t utterly discredited yourself as a contributor to this community”

    That question might be directed right back at you like a boomerang, Uri, because we now see that you publish fake stories, that anyone who comes to your office in the game, or contacts you on e-mail or YMs, can tell you any totally false information, and you will publish it.

    And if the price for having made that fact now abundantly public — fact — is that the whole community comes to hate me as a hoaxer, so be it, I fear not. It is those who publish hoaxes who have no discernment who are to be despised by seekers of the truth, not those who perpetrate a hoax so as to make a point about a gross poisoner of the well. It is you who have poisoned the well.
41. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 23rd, 2004
    

    What we’ve established here is that you publish false information. That’s now a proven fact. If you chose to be petulant about being outed in this way, and call in to question even obvious, common-sense reports like my information about being propositioned in the game by adults who didn’t bother to find out if a naive, badly-spelling girl was of age or not, well, that’s your problem. I have the screenshots. And those who know me know that I am speaking the truth on this matter. But wait a little more, Uri, and see what your next story is. There is a group of people who helped fool you, and they haven’t disbanded.
42. 

    Urizenus
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    Yup, false information. And surprise of surprises, Dyerbrook turns out to be the source. Why you would go out of your way to discredit yourself in the only forum that let you speak your mind freely is utterly beyond me.
43. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    To discredit you.
44. 

    urizenus
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    *shrug*, whatever floats your boat, D.
45. 

    Stella Dives
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    that bullshit barely deserves your attention Uri. I hope fruitypants is permenantly banned from this blog. What a drag. For the record, I called you a bastard. BUT I forgot to mention that you are also brilliant, generous, tolerant, creative, gentle and sexy as hell. LOL Im trying to cover my ass now.
46. 

    urizenus
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    Ban Dyerbrook from the blog? Can’t do that, he’s my shill, remember? lol. Anyway, it’s all grist for the philosophy mill — I’m interested in questions of personal identity and the defeasibility (defeatability) of knowledge claims in the online environment, so this is a good case study to think about — but probably in another thread.

    And your right about me being sexy as hell!
47. 

    Dyerbrook
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    Fruitypants? Is that supposed to mean I’m gay? You’re not intolerant, are you? Geez, Uri, I’m only temporarily banned from your site? What was my violation? Truth-telling? I didn’t realize you had a TOS like Maxis/EA.
48. 

    toy
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    toy feels you are truthful Uri…. also anyone, including dyerbrook can be hoaxed…. its just somthing narrowminded poeple do to amuse their small minds…. toy has read all the interviews you have done and has had one done by you with this girl and Mistress Maria… toy has always found you to be truthful and honest…. dyerbrook has lied repeatedly as proven in the past.. believe this girl Uri. toy thinks of you as a honest, truthful person and toy does respect what you have done and what you continue to do… we all know the type of ilk dyerbrook is…. none can stop him but all can ignore his childish games and let him run to momma if it gets to much to bear

    respectfully,

    toy
49. 

    Raisonneur
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    Cute. Very cute.

    I find it interesting that a post that was originally the source of Wicca finally made its way into BDSM. The reason I originally agreed to be the voice of Selene was because I understood what Dyerbrook wanted to do and had a wealth of knowledge in both areas. I, however, am neither 15 nor Wiccan. (I am also, ostensibly, NOT Dyerbrook.) I also understand that Urizenus himself is one of the worst reporters I’ve ever had the displeasure of working with. Just the facts, huh? Good luck at your job with the National Enquirer.

    I must admit, however, I had my own agenda. I have seen both the BDSM lifestyle and the Wiccan practice firsthand. They both stem from the same desire: the procurement of power. Those in BDSM have little power over their own lives, and therefore seek either to claim it over others or have someone give them the illusion of such. Wicca, as with many religions, also gives the aforementioned illusion — if you believe you can make something happen, and it does, you feel as if you’ve got some sort of control over yourself and your immediate surroundings. The rituals of either lifestyle are simply the vestiges of a life out of control. Prove me wrong, I dare you. Whatever you say you’ve done, wherever you say you’ve been, I’ve been there, done that, and given the T-shirt to Goodwill. I understand the hunger and would provide food for those who want it. Unfortunately, however, that ambrosia is less than filling.

    I do commend Urizenus for his zeal to understand different aspects he would never himself be able to experience. I also, however, commend Dyerbrook for his obsession with uncovering the myths of these same aspects. I think the truth of either lies somewhere in the middle; we are the products of our perceptions, and our weaknesses allow us to see things the way we want to see them. I encourage each of you to dig deep, open your eyes, and realize what it is you’re trying to do. Quit grasping for illusions and take life in a chokehold. TSO is a place for us to pretend to be that which we’ve always secretly wanted to be. Well, hon, if you want it that badly, get off the goddamn computer and do it. Elsewise put that dream to bed and find something useful to do.

    Yours truly,

    Raisonneur
50. 

    Cocoanut
    

    Jan 24th, 2004
    

    The professor is not a journalist; he only plays one on this web site.

    The entire world now “knows” that underage children sell or have sold their services at on-line brothels on TSO. How do we know this? We know it because Evangeline said so. And because Evangeline told the professor he (Evangeline) was 19.

    Correct me if I’m wrong on those details.

    While I would place bets that there have been or are some people under 18 selling their services in the game, I have yet to meet one myself. So what do I have to actually go on? Personal experience? No, because I haven’t found any. Investigating and interviewing in depth to actually get at the truth? No, because I haven’t done that. Someone else’s investigating and interviewing to get at the truth? No, because the professor hasn’t done that either.

    What I have to go on is what Evangeline/Merrill/Voyer – truly a sociopathic personality unusual in any online game or any mileau – has told the professor, presumably by electronic means alone.

    And yet the whole world now knows it to be a “fact” that TSO harbors brothels where underage children sell sex. Why? Because the professor – with all his credentials – has said so. And he said so because . . . Evangeline said so.

    This case is qualitatively no different from the Selene/Wiccan case. Had the professor chosen Selene to “study”; had the professor chosen Selene to publicize; had the professor chosen Selene as his centerpiece for his publicity and his upcoming book, then what would we have?

    Something altogether fabricated, that’s what.

    Who’s to say that Evangeline himself isn’t fabricating things? Exactly what things is he fabricating? Is he fabricating even himself? We will never know. Because no investigation beyond a simple online interview was ever done.

    A true journalist tries to find the truth. The truth about the existance of a problem, and the truth about the magnitude of the problem if it exists, before he presents it as a definite problem of import. A true journalist doesn’t take the word of one anonymous individual – possibly fabricated – and tout it all over the planet as fact.

    Now, for all I know, the professor has done more investigation into the cyber-brothel situation than he has presented here. And, as I say,if I were to place bets on it, I would say that yes, there probably have been, if not are still, cyberbrothels in which people under 18 have taken part. But that surmise on my part, even coupled with the word of Evangeline (and we all know how good that is), would not be anywhere near enough for me to broadcast the issue to the world.

    What if the professor had chosen Wiccan as a point of philosophical interest – would he have presented Selene and her “facts” to the world as gospel?

    This little exercise of Dyerbrook and friends has convinced me the answer to that question would be yes.

    coco

Leave a Reply