Cyberprostitution in There
by Alphaville Herald on 05/08/04 at 5:08 am
Seems like just yesterday that everyone was all exercised by reports of cyberprostitution on TSO. But like, it *is* the oldest profession (if not the cyber part), so why be surprised? More recently we’ve learned about Cyber escort services in Second Life. And now, finally, There has what every MMORPG needs — a bald journalist with the nutty idea that MMORPG newspapers should be more than just boosterish fanzines. Mondo Kane, of the Caldera Sun Times in There dropped in on an escort auction, and gives us the skinny, so to speak. Along the way, he raises the issue of underage cyberprostitution, which apparently has been a topic on There’s message boards of late. Oh and apart from being a great writer, Mondo has some interesting observations to, such as…
…these remarks.
“The presence of escort agencies is not the problem here. Some mentalists, mainly the ones with the problem with people showing their underwear, might say they contribute to the social downfall of There. That though is naivety of the worst kind. The enemy here is the Thereian economy and our own greed, a double-whammy that knocks morals and ethics for six. If it was easier to make money here it might not be such a problem. But while we remain stuck with the choice of either hosting celebrity parties, trading our spare time out to strangers, swapping cybersex for money or peddling our brain matter to readers, we?ll just keep selling out. Morality, in the greater scale of things here, can only ever get bent over the board room table and given it, good and hard.”
Candace
Aug 6th, 2004
{As a side note, I must say that this is twice in the last couple days I’ve been indirectly called a “douchebag” and frankly it’s starting to sting a bit. First, in my interview w/ Cyber Hater (though I did provoke him a bit) and now by good Mr. 12K John? What the hell is with that; I’m unaccustomed to it. Usually people just throw things at the Herald staff. Ah well….}
coco,
Our comments suggest that there is a prejudice at work against someone who engages in prostitution and fascinatingly (to me, at least) this thread has seemed to reveal that. I’m well aware that our view may be a minority opinion and we’ve conceded that we may be wrong should someone be kind enough to show us the error of our ways. Being a minority opinion surely doesn’t mean our position is automatically misguided. For our part, we’ve expended a lot of effort in good faith to explain our position. You say that you don’t want to share your position about why prostitutes should rightly be considered lower class, inferior individuals (and I shall respect that right, although I’m puzzled why you would chime in with such a remark if you were unwilling to give reason to support it, aside from what boils down to: ‘most people think so too.’). As for the claim that it’s incumbent upon us (in the minority) to provide a rationale behind our view, I have typed my little heart out here explaining the principle of equality that I wish to abide by (For the last time: We should grant equal moral status to individuals, regardless of their chosen occupation) the conditions under which it seems to me that an adult (free; under no coercion, rational) who makes a decision to sell sexual services has made a personal life decision that should not earn them an inferior rank in society. I don’t know what more I can do to aid the discussion. (BTW, this is a message board and a *discussion* is going on; I’m also puzzled why you think our interest in this debate is a “lowly tactic” and “wacky”). Since, you have no interest in continuing the debate, we obviously will get no farther in illuminating this issue, but I still think it very interesting and worthy of thought.
urizenus
Aug 6th, 2004
Coco, here is my view.
1) I still don’t believe for a nanosecond that there is no cybering (nor do the Therians I’ve talked to since), but that is my personal opinion and has nothing to do with what the initial post said. It said “Mondo Kane, of the Caldera Sun Times in There dropped in on an escort auction, and gives us the skinny, so to speak. Along the way, he raises the issue of underage cyberprostitution, which apparently has been a topic on There’s message boards of late. Oh and apart from being a great writer, Mondo has some interesting observations to, such as…”
but…
2) Whether there is cybering or not seems to me a distinction that really amounts to nothing and misses the point of Mondo’s article, which is that these escort services (with or without cybering — and perhaps moreso if without) are a dismal commentary on the economy of There.
3) I am filled with mirth by the insistance of these escorts that they are “classy”. Yup, nothing says classy like auctioning yourself off for Therebucks.
4) I am filled with revulsion by the moral superiority towards r/l prostitues copped by the same said escorts.
5)whether by intent or inherently weak reasoning skills you have misrepresented my position, which is not that there are no morals, but rather that the proper moral stance would not adopt this attitude of superiority.
Now when you say this: “We’re not talking about how one treats an individual, but about how one views an individual in moral terms.”
You know, just as I find it difficult to see the distinction between a prostitute and an escort, I find it nearly as ahrd to see the distinction between “viewing” someone as being morally inferior and “treating” them as morally inferior. But maybe you have the strength to treat well those that you morally despise. Somehow I doubt it.
Cocoanut
Aug 6th, 2004
1. Yes, there is prejudice at work against what someone does when someone engages in prostitution. You can safely say I’m against it.
2. That you are of an extreme minority viewpoint doesn’t, of course, automatically mean you are wrong – it simply puts the onus on you to defend your views rather than you expecting me to explain mine, as though they were previously unheard of by you.
3. You would not grant equal moral status to a murderer as you would to a non-murderer, but you would grant equal moral status to a prostitute as to a non-prostitute. We differ on that.
4. You want to argue that selling sex is just as legitimate as selling hair care products. I don’t buy it.
5. Uri, I know you don’t believe that there is no cybering in the There group for a nanosecond, and to me it is suspect, as well. But with this many people maintaining that it is not happening, to their knowledge, it would make more sense to either (a) prove that it is or (b) stop insinuating that it is, as you did in your newest thread tonight.
6. I don’t know why you are so filled with revulsion that the escorts think they aren’t stooping as low as prostitutes. I would agree with their analysis.
As for the distinction between being an escort and being a prostitute, I would probably have some of the same reservations you do, if we were actually discussing that. Nonetheless, there are degrees of things. Most people would consider prostitution a far cry from auctions of escorts, as happens at many fund-raising benefits.
7. I can’t help but notice that nearly all of your posts contain some insult to my reasoning skills. Do you think that if you keep saying that, it will make it true? Or that if you repeat it often enough, others will begin to think it must be true?
8. “but rather that the proper moral stance would not adopt this attitude of superiority.”
This statement of yours is exactly what I’ve been objecting too all this time. You think you are morally superior to us because you don’t think the behavior of non-prostitutes is morally superior to prostitutes and we think it is.
Because you have decided that in this particular area there is no right or wrong (as opposed to other areas), you conclude others who believe there is are “acting superior,” which makes you superior because you aren’t acting superior vis-a-vis prostitutes.
This in itself betrays an attitude of superiority, and a more egregious one than any I might have.
Moreover, I have not maintained I am morally superior to you because I consider prostitution morally wrong and you don’t.
I could make an easier case that one can have an opinion that selling sex for money is wrong without being morally corrupt than you can make the case that I am morally corrupt for thinking selling sex is wrong.
In other words, toss a coin. Either you think it’s morally wrong or you don’t. You can say it isn’t, and I can say it is. We could waste hours listing all the reasons in favor of our individual arguments.
But what I am objecting to is the fact that not only do you believe you are in the right, you also believe you are adopting “the proper moral stance” because of what you happen to believe.
You think that the There escort people are morally inferior to you because of this. And you’ve focused the discussion on that, and lambasted them for defending themselves against – yes – accusations – of being prostitutes.
The There escorts might feel they are taking a higher moral road than prostitutes do, and I would agree with them. But you think you are morally superior to all of us merely because you disagree with our assessment of behaviors. In short – merely because you are certain your views are right. You are certain we have no right to assess prostitution as morally wrong, because – you have declared that it isn’t.
Whereas I have not suggested that your opinion about the morality of prostitution means you are morally bankrupt in comparison to me.
9. As for what you know of me personally, and what you doubt or don’t doubt about how I’d treat any individual – as opposed to my feelings about behaviors – you don’t know beans.
coco
urizenus
Aug 6th, 2004
Coco, I actually agree that there is a discussion to be had about the morality of prostitution. However I’m not sure I agree about where the burden of proof lies; It IS a victimless crime (assuming the prostitute is acting of his/her own volition and is of age). But yes, it is something to discuss and I wouldn’t expect you to accept my position without good arguments.
But… right here and now I’m just giving you my opinion so as to highlight the fact that I am not “bashing” the escorts in There. If they are cybering, or even arranging real life tricks it really doesn’t matter to me. Honestly. It would all be jake in my book.
As I understand the contention of the escorts in this thread, their claim is not that there is no cyberprostitution in There, it is rather that they don’t do it and they don’t want to be lumped together with those that do.
My point is, whether they are cybering their customers or not it really doesn’t make a particle of difference to me. I certainly wouldn’t think less of them if they were (for reasons stated above).
On moral superiority: there is a difference between claiming that something is the proper moral stance and thinking that one is morally superior. The proper moral stance is something that one might come to by reason. The moral worth of the agent depends upon whether they act in accord with what they have come to understand as the proper moral stance. See? Its simple.
On your reasoning ability. Um…as a pedagogue it is my job to say… you are showing lots of improvement.
As to how you would treat anyone who you despised, well, it’s true that my views are based on what I’ve seen in this blog…
Cocoanut
Aug 7th, 2004
You’re not my teacher, though, Uri. (Though I can learn things from you – either directly or indirectly.) So it really isn’t your “job” to say.
I will say, though, that this particular conversation has gone better than others we’ve had in the past. I say that not as a pedagogue, but as, at the least, your intellectual equal.
coco
urizenus
Aug 7th, 2004
pedagogue doesn’t mean smarter, it just means teacher (and concerned with the mechanics of teaching). *Most* of my students are smarter than me, so if you happen to be smarter than me as well it would not come as a great surprise.
David Halloway
Aug 7th, 2004
Why all the fuss? There sux. It’s a toy, get over it. It’s this silly ass Disney’ish world where the average IQ there is less than a can of soda. The people are stupid, the world is stupid. That newspaper over in There, CST, has a history of “generating” news. Who gives a red hot damn what goes on in a cartoony world full of people so blindly stupid, they couldn’t find their way out of a car wash.
urizenus
Aug 7th, 2004
Sage words, David, but it is our editorial policy precisely to *not* neglect feeble MORPGs and their clue impaired denizens but to bring their plight to the attention of the greater gaming community.
Mafioso
Aug 8th, 2004
And Sims and SL arent cartoonish worlds?
Urizenus
Aug 8th, 2004
“a cartoony world full of people so blindly stupid, they couldn’t find their way out of a car wash”
The cartoony part applies to tso and sl, but I’m not sure the rest does.
David Halloway
Aug 8th, 2004
Yes, they are but at least the people there have some sense. There is so painfully boring it makes me want to rip out my eyes. I played for 4 months, and it was 4 months too long.
Doesn’t matter though. This time next year people will barely even remember what There was. The members think the company is safe, but you watch. It will be closed by Christmas.
It was and still is a loser.
Craig Foreck
Aug 9th, 2004
I used to respect this paper in TSO.. im not a member of There.. im on 2nd life.. however… People who like to talk bad about a place they dont represent are called “Haters”. It only means that the writers of the paper are bored with thier own cummunities news.. they have to go find someplace else to pick on.
kevin bustos
Aug 9th, 2004
hi, im 14 years old and I play on There and on SecondLIFE I like secondlife better. in second life i seen a dildo in a house keep bumpping into me and i can see girl pictures and tv There is boring.. you have to wear clothes and its hardest to find girl to sit in the chair like secondlife to do cybersex. There Sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
once bitten
Aug 9th, 2004
‘Hmm I find it very interesting that people once again from other games go on and bash There. I played all three of the games brought up thus far and There at least has far superior graphics. You don’t need dildos in SL because it appears you have one perminatly stuck up your ass as you walk!
As far as the people who play these games. There are good and bad in ALL games, such as life.
So go play the one you prefer, but for God’s sake don’t bash the one you don’t like or the people in it.
Vega
Aug 11th, 2004
Are my eyes deceiving me? Is that an intelligent post I see? Well said, once bitten.
Oh, people, and notice how someone with a thinking brain does not need to write a thesis long post in an effort to seem smart.
urizenus
Aug 11th, 2004
yeah, nothing says intelligent like talking about SL avis having dildos ‘perminatly’ (sic) stuck up their asses.
Vega
Aug 11th, 2004
And nothing says “i have no argument” like attacking typos.
urizenus
Aug 11th, 2004
oh gee, you must be right. apart from the spelling error that post was a work of genius! but how would I know? my avi walks like it has a dildo up its virtual ass. all behold your Therian wisdom and slouching avi.
Vega
Aug 11th, 2004
Who said I was a Therian?
urizenus
Aug 11th, 2004
Who said Therian wisdom afflicts only Therians?
Vega
Aug 11th, 2004
You should know, since you are one.
urizenus
Aug 11th, 2004
one what?